Transcript
WEBVTT
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Want to expand the reach of your
content, start a podcast, feature industry
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experts on your show and leverage the
influence and reach of your guests to grow
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your brand. Learn more at sweetfish
MEDIACOM. You're listening to be tob growth,
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a daily podcast for B TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard
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before, like Gary Vander truck and
Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard
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from the majority of our guests.
That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't
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with professional speakers and authors. Most
of our guests are in the trenches leading
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sales and marketing teams. They're implementing
strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're
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building the fastest growing BTB companies in
the world. My name is James Carberry.
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I'm the founder of sweet fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands,
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and I'm also one of the CO
hosts of this show. When we're
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not interviewing sales and marketing leaders,
you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of
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our own business. Will share the
ups and downs of our journey as we
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attempt to take over the world.
Just getting well, maybe let's get into
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the show. Welcome back to BEDB
growth. I am your host for today's
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episode, Nikki Ivy, with sweetish
media as I've got with me today Andy
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Mackinson, who is co founder and
Cmo at Snack Nation, and y.
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How you doing the day? What
is happening, Nikki? I'm doing well.
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How are you? I'd like when
people return the sunshine already fun.
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I'm good. I'm good. I'm
excited to talk about what you're going to
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help is dig into. Today.
We're going to be talking about not just
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the importance of copywriting in sales and
marketing, but you know, some things
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folks get wrong, why it's not
as emphasized as it should be and all
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of that. It's personally interesting to
me because, some of you may know,
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by background is in journalism, and
so at heart I am a copywriter,
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but sales a lot of the time
takes you far away from me.
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You don't always get to engage with
that part of yourself as much. So
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you're minute for my own heart.
Before we get into that stuff and deep
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I would love it if you would
just give us all a little bit of
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background on yourself and what you in
the folks that snack nation are up to
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these days. Well, Hey,
snack nation is America's number one off of
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snack delivery experience plannings. Simple.
So what we do is we discover the
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newest emerging snacks that are on the
market. By the way, there's thousands
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of them out there, and we
have a proprietary taste testing process where we
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bring these snacks in house, we
put them through a five point checklist,
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determine which snacks are the best and
then we curate them into boxes, ship
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themount to all fifty states, to
over five thou businesses nationwide, and then
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all of the employees get amazing delicious
snacks in the workplace to help improve morale,
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boost productivity and basically have a really
Badass time at work. That's pretty
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much stagnation and nutshell, you just
described an actual snack nation and I wasn't
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expecting that. I didn't know this. so much went into it. I'm
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pretty sure this neck nation is how
I discovered. What's the popcorn in the
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purple bag? And it's like a
kettle corn all, is it? Googles,
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they have a yeah, there's like
I said, it is absolutely mind
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blowing how many new emerging snacks are
coming out every day. It's a very
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fast paced industry right now. Yeah, my mind is literally blown by the
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fact that such such a volume of
snacks exist. Yeah, but what we're
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going to really deal with today.
Thanks for letting US know who you are
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and what you do and in what
you do, your this success has got
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to have, you know, some
of some of that Ode to the premium
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put on copywriting and put on the
importance of knowing how to craft a good
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a good message. So that's why
I'm excited to hear you talk about this
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today. But to frame up this
conversation, first talk to us about why
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more people aren't having this conversation.
Why you don't think, when we're training,
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particularly sales people and sometimes marketers,
whether is it more of an emphasis
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on copywriting? Yeah, I don't
think people it's on people's radar copywriting.
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I mean the origins of copywriting,
at least for Direct Response Marketing. I
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mean it goes way back to the
early nineteen hundreds. You've got great's like
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clod Hopkins where he was helping sell
Schlitz Beer, and you've got Eugene Schwartz
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in the s and you know Ogilvie
and all these these names of phenomenal copywriters
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that were able to craft words on
paper to get people to feel a certain
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way and then to take action to
buy a product. And now, and
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I think in today's age, with
the Internet and it being so easy to
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just say, Hey, I'm going
to throw up and add on instagram or
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I'm going to jot down something really
quick and put it up on ad words
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and, you know, and see
if, see if that's going to you,
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you know, generate some clicks.
I just don't think that the the
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training and the understanding of how important
and how powerful copywriting is. I just
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don't think it's pervasive in in today's
marketing and sales cultures, and that gives
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a big opportunity for for organizations who
do understand the power of copywriting to study
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it and deploy it smartly. Sounds
like we described is. It's not only
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that it's not pervasive in sales and
marketing culture, it's not pervasive in culture
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period any not really. Yeah,
right. And so you got these kids
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with their machines. No, you
have folks being so used to communicating in
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such an instant and abbreviated way that
you know it. It's pretty easy for
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that. I would call the art
of it to get lost, because we
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don't really reward people for that kind
of thing anymore socially, you don't.
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In fact, the more words you
use and the prettier they are, a
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lot of the time you run the
risk of alienating more people. That's right.
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A Lot, a lot of marketers
think, think like Cutesye statements and,
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you know, cute subject lines on
emails, and you know Ogilvie said
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back in the the S. don't
be cute, be very clear and be
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very directing in the words that you
choose. I love it, I love
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you took such a firm stance on
that. It gave me chills, seriously,
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because I fall into this trap a
lot. As much as I have
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this my kids hate it, but
as much as I have this love and
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respect for language and what it can
do to really move people, to act
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like you talked about. Because I'm
turning eight, I'm thirty sold and getting
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up are. There is this pressure, there is this pressure to give in
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to the cute and to sort of
lean into that because you know that's going
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to be the the quicker win,
but not necessarily, is what it sounds
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like you're talking about, and I
think you're right when you talk about why
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it's not so so emphasized. So
So, let's say folks listening are with
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US and they've agreed that, yes, this is something we need to start
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to emphasize them more. Where would
you begin? Right, and all of
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the all of the the channels where
there's opportunity to really go all in on
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on your copywriting and honing and mastering. That still the email or your social
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where would you? Where would you
start? Yeah, well, the the
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first place to start is study the
greats. I stand on the shoulders of
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giants. There's you know, we
look at how we can very quick I
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mentioned ad words and instagram whatnot.
Like you can put two ads on on
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ad words and split test them and
get results and find something out in you
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know, depending on how much you're
spending in what the traffic is, a
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couple hours, maybe even less if
you're spending a lot. Think about what
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the direct mail marketers in the early
nineteen hundreds had to do in order to
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get split test results. They had
to figure out not only what to write
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and and get the copywriting down,
typically in long form letters, they then
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had to put those letters in envelopes, apply stamps to them, get all
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the addresses down, acquire the list, send the mailers out and then the
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prospect when they receive the mailer.
They had to cut out a Johnson box,
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which is like a dotted line coupon. You had to cut it out,
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you had to fill in your name
and information with pen. You had
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to include a check with payment.
You had to take that, stick it
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in an envelope, write the return
address, put a stamp on it and
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get it back in the mail.
Look at how hard that is. And
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Yeah, and so these direct these
direct mail marketers. Back in the nineteen
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hundreds it would take, you know, two to four months sometimes to get
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all of the men to get enough
response back to say, okay, the
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campaign is done. Now let's tally
the results and see what happens. So
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the speed at which we can do
things today is mind blowing. And so
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when you when I say, go
back to the greats, they had to
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think so long and hard about what
do we write? This is expensive,
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you know, we can't just write
anything down and then just send it out.
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They really really had to think about
it. And and so they've learned
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a lot. They spent a lot
of money on testing and so all of
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the you know, all of the
results that came back in the early nineteen
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nineteen hundreds is based on human psychology. And, by the way, human
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doesn't matter whether it's direct mail,
Internet telephone. Human psychology has not changed
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in a hundred years. We're all
still humans and we all still think the
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same way and we all have the
same motivate motivators. We're trying to go
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towards towards happiness and away from fear. At least that's most of us.
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So when I say go back to
the great study, Clod Hopkins, he
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wrote a book, and I think
it was one thousand nine hundred and twenty
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four or called scientific advertising. He
was one of the first pioneers to to
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figure out the direct mail and and
how to measure the results. Study Eugene
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sworts from the S is a book
called breakthrough advertising study. David Ogilvie,
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Ogilvie and advertising study, Game Kennedy, he's a little he's more recent,
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more s and two thousands. He
was a really good at writing sales letters
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and doing direct response copy. Once
you have a good basis of studying all
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the greats, then you don't have
to reinvent the wheel. Just you know
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you have a basis of where to
start. Then, once you've studied the
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greats, I would recommend actually writing
out sales letters. So that's where you
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really learn to craft the copy,
is to writing your own sales letters.
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And you know Dan Kenny has a
great book called the ultimate sales letter where
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you can learn the different formats.
But it teaches you, hey, write
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aheadline, how to write a sub
subhead, how to, you know,
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have appeal all, how to have
interest, all those things. And once
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you actually get practice of writing your
own sales letters, then you can start
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applying those principles to something that's a
little bit shorter and a little bit easier,
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for example, email subject lines or
a how about a hook like your
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adwords, the first first line on
your adwords ad things like that. But
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you got to understand what you know
what direct response copy is and what garners
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action from people, and that's that's
the way you do it. So and
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it what you were saying kind of
leads into my my next question, which
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is to what extent do you think
just a talent for copywriting is exaggerated versus,
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you know, it being a really
learnable skill. I have a hunch
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that a lot of folks who don't, you know, emphasize it is because
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they think you have to naturally be
good at at writing or actually be good
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at engaging people that way in the
first place before you can be effective.
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What do you think about that?
I'm really glad you brought that question up,
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because you're so there. There was
a an implied point in there,
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and and the point is is that
most of copywriting is actually, I believe
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it's not talent like I think it
helps to have some talent with writing,
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but you can still be a great
copywriter even if you don't know how to
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write. And the reason I say
that is because great copywriters they're not writing
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a whole bunch of brand new copy. What they're doing is swiping ideas from
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other copywriters and other sales letters.
Remember all the greats. They've written a
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lot of stuff. There's so many
different swipe files out there and ads that
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you can look at and ideas that
you can look at. You can go
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look at old magazines and see if
an ad's been running for twelve months straight,
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you know that it's working and it's
making money. Go study those ads
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and see and see what you think
are the factors that are making, you
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know, those ads stay in that
magazine and at the you know the company
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is paying for that that ad continuously. It has to be working and there's
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insights there. And so a good
copywriter is actually looking at all of the
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copy that has been written before and
actually piecing it together. So a good
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copywriter is not actually like a journalist, it's more of like a detective and
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like saying Hey, what, what
is important to do to people and how
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can we say this the right way, and then using other ads out there
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that have those words in them.
Right, so treating it as you studying
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the data points. Basically it's a
formula. It's a more you know what.
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As a formula, it sounds like
back in the motown days, right.
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You hear a lot of songs from
that era with the song baby in
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them, right, and it's easy
to think about that it's just a coincidence.
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But you, I think you and
I know it's not right. They
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stayed studied that as a data point, like what are those the words in
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songs that people are responding to?
How much more, you know, and
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more quickly are people buying these records
where with the word baby in it specifically,
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then not, and then you're like
you said, you don't have to
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reinvent the wheel. You kind of
have your foundation for how to write this
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song already. You just know that
you got to be talked about your baby
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and and and I'm hearing that and
what you're saying and I love it because,
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to be honest with you, Andy, I've have fallen into this trap
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of Romanticizing copywriting. I am I've
seen every single episode of mad men at
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least three times, and it's not
that I wanted to be Peggy, I
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want to be dawn and and he's
painted as this figure that does have this
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like supernatural talent for writing copy,
for knowing which words will move people,
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and I think a little part of
what all of us kind of wants to
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be that. But then if you
if you get too wrapped up in that,
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as I as I am guilty of, then you overthink it and you
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don't produce, you end up not
putting anything out. You end up,
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like I talked about before, like
I confessed to you before, just,
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you know, copying out and going
for what's cute right, absolutely and there.
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And when I was talking about the
formula. Here's an example I've just
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typed in. I've got like a
list of power words that I have and
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I ever know it. So you
know, even if for you know some
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direct takeaways, that if someone wants
to insert some of these words into their
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existing ad copy, these words work
really well. Remarkable, amazing, easy,
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quick, revolutionary. Suddenly, so
these are Ogilby's influential words and if
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you want to insert some of those, you'll immediately improve the power of your
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copy. And look at that.
You didn't have to be a journalist or
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a writer. You just grab some
of those words and put them in.
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I love it. I love it
so much. Listen, thank you for
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giving us these real, digestible,
applicable ways to think about copywriting and make
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it a little bit less scary.
Um, what I think I want to
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do? I'm going to bounce this
idea off of you while I got you
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here. I'm obviously not going to
stop what I've been doing. Right,
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we all have least sales people.
We have our outreach sequence is built in
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with its level of automation that helps
us be able to just get through a
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day and not go crazy. But
what I want to challenge myself to do
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it. I'm not quite sure what
it looks like, because this idea is
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forming as I'm speaking it to you. Is I'm going to think about ten
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top accounts that I want to reach
out to and I'm going to practice writing
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sales letters to those accounts and then
just see what what happens, see what
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the response to, see how I
feel about what words this evokes from me
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and what what folks are responding to, and then use those data points and,
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like you talked about, apply it
to the the shorter form and the
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more, the more automated things that
I'm doing. Have you done? Is
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that what you did? Is that
kind of what you just recommended in my
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crazy what? So I'm glad you
brought that up. I mean, so
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there's a difference between a long form
sales letter that you are sending out to
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a consumer to, you know,
basically prep them and get them interested in
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buying a consumer product, and what
you just mentioned outreach, which is like
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be to be, you know,
email marketing, to get an appointment.
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So, for in terms of copywriting, for like be to be outbound emails,
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I actually think shorter is better and
in terms of subject lines, like
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make them curiosity driven. Don't give
the answer in the subject line, or
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else there's no reason to actually open
the email. And that's one of the
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biggest mistakes I see is people make
a subject line where there's no there's no
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reason actually open the email. So
you know some of the subject lines we've
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used in the past that work really
well is literally just hey aty. Think
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about how you'd write an email to
a friend. You know you wouldn't say
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here are the top three ways to
increase sales in two thousand and nineteen,
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like you know, I mean like
that. Would never write that to a
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friend. So think about the friend
factor and being colloquial. There are different
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styles. It's my style is let's
let's be more friendly and colloquial and not
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be formal corporate. That the other
thing I hate, and people can battle
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me on this all the time,
as I'm not a big fan of html
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emails. Now, maybe for a
BBC brand that you know you're trying to
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you're trying to grow a BTC brand, but with betob emails, keep them
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text based. Keep them you know
right, like you talk. How you
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know if you're going to say have
to say gotta, you know, be
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very friendly and colloquial and you'll get
more response from your emails. I love
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it. I love it so much. So now, Andy, that you
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know I've successfully picked your brain and
seeing all the wonderful things I could get
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out of it, it is time
for you to tell us about what you
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were putting in it. So talk
about some resource that you have engaged with
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here that's informing your approach. That's
just got you excited these days. Yeah,
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well, I mean I mentioned.
Look, if this is all about
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copywriting and you're going to zone in
on copywriting, I mean the books already
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are are absolute definite. So scientific
advertising by Claude Hopkins, Eugene Schwartz,
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hard to get booked, but I
think it's going back into prints called breakthrough
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advertising, Dan Kennedy's the the ultimate
sales letter. Those are all for John
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Cable's has a book out and I'm
now blanking on it. I've read it
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cover to cover. But those are, you know, the the core copywriting
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books in terms of you know,
podcasts and whatnot. Man, I listened
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to way too many podcasts, but
you know, what's actually good for for
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copywriting is listen to seeking wisdom by
drift drift is a bee tob conversational marketing
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company, but they're really big on
on direct response marketing and you'll learn a
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lot of about copy and psychology by
listening to their podcast. Sounds good,
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man. So I know that everybody
listening and learning. For me today it's
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00:19:17.630 --> 00:19:18.549
become a fast fan of yours.
They're going to want to know how to
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keep up with you, and you
tell the folks how they can connect with
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00:19:22.109 --> 00:19:26.180
you. Yeah, I mean I'm
on Linkedin, Andy mackinson. Usually people
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murder my last name so it's spelled
M ack en. Seen. You hit
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00:19:32.619 --> 00:19:34.940
me up on Linkedin. That's probably
the best channel to hit me up on.
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Got It. And then, and
then also, hey, little value
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00:19:38.410 --> 00:19:42.529
bomb. If anyone I just realize
this, if anyone's listening and they have
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00:19:42.769 --> 00:19:47.250
ten or more employees in their office, we can actually give away a free
280
00:19:47.289 --> 00:19:52.609
snack box to their office. Just
go to snack nationcom. Three, one,
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00:19:52.769 --> 00:19:56.279
two, three, let's two,
three and often for a free snack
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box. Nice. Thanks for the
man hey, listen. The folks listening
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don't know this, but I'm gonna
go ahead and tell him he's got lots
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of value bombs. He's kind in
terms of like things that and you can
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talk to us about that, we
can implement, and we just chose copywriting
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00:20:11.869 --> 00:20:15.470
for today. What I'm saying isn't
going to have to have you back on
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00:20:15.589 --> 00:20:18.029
the show, so you're going to
have to suffer through another conversation with me.
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Sorry, not sorry, but for
now we'll close this one out and
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I'll just say thank you so much
from laying this out for us today and
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coming and talking to us about the
importance of happy writing. Absolutely we're talking
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00:20:30.460 --> 00:20:33.059
about underwater basket weaving. I am
an expert, so happy to talk about
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00:20:33.099 --> 00:20:41.569
that. Thanks and all right.
Thanks. If you are a regular listener
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00:20:41.650 --> 00:20:45.410
of BB growth, odds are you
might enjoy sales success stories with Scott Ingram
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00:20:45.490 --> 00:20:49.440
as well well. This year,
thanks to a partnership with outreach and sales
295
00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:53.920
hacker, our friend Scott Ingram is
making the live stream of his sales success
296
00:20:55.000 --> 00:21:00.640
summit available for free. The event
is on October fourteen and fifteen, featuring
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00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:06.670
thirteen presentations and five panels, all
presented by top performing be tob sales professionals.
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00:21:06.990 --> 00:21:11.150
You can check it out and register
at top one DOT FM live.
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00:21:11.549 --> 00:21:15.269
That's top the number one DOT FM
LIVE