Transcript
WEBVTT
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Wouldn't it be nice to have several
thought leaders in your industry know and Love
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Your brand? Start a podcast,
invite your industries thought leaders to be guests
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on your show and start reaping the
benefits of having a network full of industry
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influencers? Learn more at sweet phish
MEDIACOM. You're listening to be tob growth,
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a daily podcast for B TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard
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before, like Gary vanner truck and
Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard
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from the majority of our guests.
That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't
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with professional speakers and authors. Most
of our guests are in the trenches leading
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sales and marketing teams. They're implementing
strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're
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building the fastest growing BTB companies in
the world. My name is James Carberry.
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I'm the founder of sweet fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands,
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and I'm also one of the cohosts
of this show. When we're not
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interviewing sales and marketing leaders, you'll
hear stories from behind the scenes of our
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own business. Will share the ups
and downs of our journey as we attend
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to take over the world. Just
getting well? Maybe let's get into the
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show. Welcome back to be tob
growth. I am your host for today's
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episode, Nikki Ivy, with sweet
fish media. Guys. I've got with
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me today Dale Hall, who is
Chief Marketing Officer at people that Ai Tale.
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How you doing today? I'm doing
well, Nikki, nice too.
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Nice to be a good man.
I'm so excited to talk to you today.
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We're going to be guys digging into
kind to draw a line between marketing
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and sales. Not In know that
you think, but he's he's got some
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interesting ways of thinking about and talking
about this and we'll jump in here in
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a minute. But before we do
deal, I love it if you would
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just give us all a little bit
of background on yourself phone what you and
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the folks at people that Ai have
been up to these days. Sure.
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So, I like to consider myself
I'm a professional marketer. I Love Marketing,
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I love the psychology of marketing,
buying behavior, really making sure that
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you can create something that really appeals
to people and kind of influence behavior.
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So I've been doing marketing now for
over twenty years and it's, you know,
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I don't want to be CEO.
I don't want to be a CEO.
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I like, I love being CMO
and being a marketer. I join
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people a I actually because when I
talked to the founder ceoo like, I
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completely resonated with what they were trying
to solve for, which was the they
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were basically trying to find a way
of for me as a marketer to be
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more successful, to really understand what
was happening, to to leads two things
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that I would be spending money on
and getting a result of that. And
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basically, what people ai does is
we basically we have something called a revenue
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intelligence system. So with the first
ones to come out with this, it's
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it's something new, it's bleeding edge, it's category creation. But what it
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does is it captures all contact and
customer activity data, so any engagement through
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email, calendars, Zoom, slack, it captures it. It basically dynamically
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then updates your crm. Once it
does that, once you have all that
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that's captured, you're then able to
run really interesting intelligence and create guidance for
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your sales and marketing team about what's
the best next step to close a deal
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quicker, to understand where you should
put fuel on a marketing campaign or even
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potentially identify from a customer success perspective, like where you might be seeing churn.
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So marketing impact sales and customer success. So we like to say that
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the the Revenue Intelligence system that we
have really allows you to unleash the humans
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because you don't have to enter data, but also you get to really look
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at the full selling capacity of your
organization because marketing, sales and customer success.
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Everyone impacts with a customer gets to
use it and love it, and
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so yeah, it's sort of it
really does make sense that we're having a
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conversation that we're having to day when
we talk about the reasons why one would
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want to draw a line between marketing
and sales, especially in the time when
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everybody and their mom is talking about
sales and marketing alignment. First, I
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want to make it clear that we're
those two things are not mutually exclusive and
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what you're talking about a sort of
what you what you hit on just now,
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right. So, because in a
lot of cases marketing is depending on
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sales to enter in that information,
then you know they're they're limited to to
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that as far as the types of
insight they can have into what what their
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efforts are producing, and so we
draw the line, not not between the
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individuals or in between the teams in
any kind of, you know, adversarial
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way, but just to delineate and
make really clear what the results of marketings
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efforts are so that they're not having
to slow down their process and having these
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individual conversations with sales people about what
happened with lead X, Y and Z,
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right, for sure. So,
so talk to us a little bit
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more about that idea of why it's
important to make sure that those things are
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are kept separately. Yeah, well, you know, all you need to
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do is really look at, you
know, sales force. You know,
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the top selling crn was invented twenty
years ago. I think they just celebrate
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the twenty year anniversary and if you
look at whilst the product has done different
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things, if you look at how
people engage with it, it's still exactly
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the same. Nothing has changed.
They haven't figured out a way to really
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get a better way of tracking data, of entering data, of making sure
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that the crm is actually useful and
I would say that whilst crm has helped
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to pull some of the organizations together
around, okay, should be centralized about,
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you know, as crm. No
one trust it. Every every person
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I talked to thinks there's, you
know, garbage in, garbage out.
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And we actually I talked to one
of the one of the original sales people
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at sales force, who use this
analogy, which was like you spend millions
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of dollars having the potential and the
day one you get this brand new new
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cast, smell new crm, smell
crm, that you switch on and literally
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an hour later it's full of garbage, it's full of rubbish because you can't
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rely on people to enter everything that's
important, enter every single thing correctly.
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And, by the way, you
can't even update it. So you there's
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that that the basic element of crm
is to say, whenever I go there,
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I should trust what's there. Yeah, the fact is today, when
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you rely on a salesperson to do
that, the a they don't want to
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do it and be they're wasting too
much time. So we had some we
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you know, you talked to any
of the analysts or other industry firms like
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McKinsey, but we talked to serious
and they would say about thirty percent of
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the Salesperson's time is spent entering data. That's want at least one day a
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week where the salesperson's not selling.
So that's a problem. How much you
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think they actually enter the right data? Well, I would say I think
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from from some of the stats in
the reports are we've looked at, they
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we get about twenty percent of accurate
business data entered into this CRA. So
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you're wasting one day a week.
You're missing about eight to percent of the
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pertinent data. And that is the
crux of the problem because now you look
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at like a marketer and I'm trying
to run campaigns based on all this data.
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That's rubbish, that's Gabage, that's
not correct, that's out a day.
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That maybe now, with some of
the privacy rules, noncompliant. Right.
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So so that's where it begins.
And I think you talk about sales
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and marketing alignment. How do you
get sales and marketing alignment? Well,
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most people would say you would.
Okay, let's sit down, let's do
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account plan, let's figure out like
what are they are right, activity is
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right kind of content, and those
are all good. But after you've had
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that meeting, then what what do
you do? Well, sales go off
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and sell and marketing start run running
campaigns. The only way to ensure that
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sales and marketing or having the right
conversations after that initial planning is you have
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to look at the right data and
everyone has to be looking at the same
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thing and everyone has to rely on
it. And that's that. That's really
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why I that's why I join where
and because I felt like, of course
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we need a better way of making
sure that we're all capturing and using that
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data, and I think that will
drive sales and marketing alignment from day one
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better than that account plant, for
sure. For sure, and what you
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just described is the number one reason
why, as you say, Ai is
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no longer a nice to have,
because that's that's the way you do it
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right. It obviously so we're talking
about here, if we're talking about not
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relying on people, salespeople, to
input this information and we're talking about Ai.
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Why do you think it is that
that is, for for a lot
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of organizations, still treated as a
nice to have and not I must have?
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Well, I think there's a couple
of reasons. First of all,
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people you get like I love Microsoft
and Microsoft products and they're an amazing company,
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but you see ads on TV with
common talking about all this potential of
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ai and those are cool adds and
it's great for Microsoft, but the reality
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is people like me at this level
and these kind of organizations, we don't
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really know what we can use AI
for today right. So part of it
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is there's a little bit of distrust
disinformation around, well, what can I
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actually do? And that's where I
think that's now growing. You know,
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organized nations, they're starting to see, okay, like we focus specifically on
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how you can help customer facing teams. So it's tangible. You can actually
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see it, you can see what
the product does, you can see in
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impact. So I think that's where
that is. is starting to become more
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mainstream and I think what will happen
now is organizations will start to see that,
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okay, I can get real results, because it's not just okay,
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what do I do with it?
It's like yeah, but what will it
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deliver? And there's any markets will
tell you the real way to sell a
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market of products is show the value, show what it delivers. An Arrow
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I and I think some of the
reticence around Ai has been I don't see
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all that tangible benefit of what ai
is going to deliver. And we just
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talked about, like there's a bunch
of stuff a I can deliver. One
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of the things that as we go
in and we talk to customers just about
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just the fact the two stats I
used twenty percent of business data, thirty
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percent of a salesperson's time. When
we go in and talk to customers and
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prospects and we say that you can
get that back, you can get the
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other eighty percent of data, you
can get a day back, a week
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for the sales team. WHO's not
going to want that? Everyone wants that
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right. They're going to say,
okay, all right, prove it.
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Obviously you have to prove it,
but there's a tangible value there and I
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think as more of that comes forward
people will be less worried about like really
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trying new types of AI and shots. Yeah, I think you're right.
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I think it's absolutely to do with
how AI has been branded within the B
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tob space. Right, I mentioned
the common commercial and I can think of
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a bunch of others who. FACEBOOK
and Android and you know a lot of
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the mobile cares and things like that
have really fun and really engaging content.
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That sort of puts ai at the
forefront and leaves sort of at the consumer
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level. He's us all like,
Oh man, what are the possibilities?
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It gets us to start thinking about
what we could do with it and how
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we could use it to save lives, enhance quality of life and all these
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things. But in be to be, it's sort of like the most conversations
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I've heard, just anecdotally, both
on this show and with my network,
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about ai are about how sales people
computer proof ourselves and our careers by staying
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ahead of a eyes that we're not
replaced by box which sells it so short,
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sells as so short, and it's
really a conversation I hope we can
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stop having because it misses the point. What what I think that folks would
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do well to concern ourselves with,
rather than the application, these small applications
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of AI, which is, which
is what I think the BBC branding is
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around, and more about the implications
of it and, once we embrace that,
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start to understand like like what you're
talking about, like hey, hey,
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this is not something that's intended to
you, spy on you, or
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make that whatever these crazy ideas other
people have about it, but it's how
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you get the thing that you always
wanted, like you said. Who Says
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No to that? Yeah, for
sure. And there's you know, there
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are rules and regulations coming into protectors
like Gdpr, like the California Day to
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privacy rules. So those are good. They help consumers and other users to
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know that there is some protection.
What I would say is that, and
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again, no, this doesn't apply
to every company, but the way to
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look at it is if you if
you think about the worst part of your
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job and the things that you don't
like. Like to me, that's where
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AI, that's why AI is getting
traction, is because if you can automate
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things like not having to enter any
data in Crm, that doesn't mean that
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someone's taking a salesperson's job. It
just means that salesperson can spend more time
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working on a roy calculator for a
customer or or figuring out the better,
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better on boarding experience for someone they
just sold to. It means the meaningful
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stuff, the stuff that takes a
little bit more thought process and where you
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could whether salesperson is really good,
which is that relationship building, that relation.
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Okay, they get to do that
and and I can't imagine any be
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to be or any selling organization that
wouldn't say I wish my sales team could
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spend more time engaging with the customers
and delivering a better personal experience really understanding
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them. Great, have him do
that, but the other stuff that they're
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spending a day a week on,
let's let's see if we can automate that.
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And and one of the point you
made around you know, how people
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kind of interact with and really trust
AI, like we talked to my talk
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to a bunch of industry analysts and
there's one guy I talk to, a
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guy called Jim Lundy, who was
a gardener and he now has his own
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firm called arrogant research I. When
I talk to him about what we did,
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what we do at People Ai,
his response was, oh, it's
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real ai, and I said what
do you mean by that? And this
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is part of the challenge we have
is that there are a lot of companies
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that talk about it and it's just
a bunch of rules and tables and you
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follow up process, but it's not
real ai. And that's the other challenge
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we have in the industry is like
making sure that when you talk about your
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your product and like what does the
Ai Do, like let's make sure it's
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AI, because if it isn't.
That's causing confusion and misinformation across the rest
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of the industry because everyone's like,
oh, everyone's Ai, everyone's daught aid,
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Ai, this AI, that right. So that causes more confusion and
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mistrust from all of us as well. So we got to get past that
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part too. I imagine it a
spreadsheet filled with rows and rows of your
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sales enablement assets. You've devoted two
years to organizing this masterpiece, only for
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it to stop making sense. This
was Chad forbuccoes reality. As the head
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of sales enablement at glint, a
linkedin company, he's responsible for instilling confidence
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00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.200
in his sales reps and arming them
with the information they need to do their
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jobs. However, when his glorious
spreadsheet became too complex, he realized he
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00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:17.240
needed a new system. That's when
Chad turned to guru. With Guru,
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00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:21.909
the knowledge you need to do your
job finds you. Between Guru's Web interface,
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00:16:22.110 --> 00:16:26.070
slack integration, mobile APP and browser
extension. Teams can easily search for
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00:16:26.149 --> 00:16:32.860
verified knowledge without leaving their workflow.
No more siload or staled information. Guru
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00:16:32.980 --> 00:16:37.139
acts as your single source of truth. For Chad this meant glent sales reps
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were left feeling more confident doing their
jobs. See why leading companies like glint,
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00:16:41.700 --> 00:16:48.129
shopify, spotify, slack and more
are using guru for their knowledge management
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00:16:48.250 --> 00:16:53.730
needs. Visit BB growth dot get
gurucom to start your thirty day free trial
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00:16:53.929 --> 00:17:02.679
and discover how knowledge management can empower
your revenue teams. Yeah, for sure.
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What I hear in that is that
every instance of automation, machine learning
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is not necessarily is not necessarily ai
and and this idea of freeing up sales
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people, and not just sales people, marketers, to everyone involved in in
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customer success as well, everyone involved
in the customer journey at any point for
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freeing us to do things that only
human beings can do. Yeah, that's
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that's the point where. That's the
that's the goal. Yeah, but to
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your point, that is and how
how folks are looking at it. It
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is and a lot of the time
how folks are actually using the technology.
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So I'm glad that you laid that
out for us and I'll tell you uniqui
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like the questions we get from media
outlets, from different organizations. That's kind
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of one of the first things,
like will aren't you taking people's jobs,
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like and that's okay. It's okay
if you ask the question, but you
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know, then you also if we
can show how we're helping people be more
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productive and more efficient, then they
should look at that and then they should
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give it a chance. And don't
you know, don't tag everything with the
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same brush. Kind of thing.
I will. We talked about sales and
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marketing alignment. Here's a good example. As a marketer, when I run
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campaigns, if I can use different
tools, different AI tools, to show
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me not just what initial names that
came into my campaign, but if I
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can then see every single sales activity
once that campaign came in and you know,
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went into the sales phone. If
I can see every single sales activity,
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who's been called, who's been who's
had an email, what meetings are
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set up, and then I can
show what opportunity has been created. That
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saves me. Like in the past
I would have to follow up into I'd
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have to go into each crm record
and I'd have to see if they enter
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the data. You know they don't
enter data. So then what I'd have
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to do is call the sales guy
and like hey, did you follow up
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on this Shell oil deal, like, what have you done? What are
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the activities? Do you think the
salesperson even wants to have that conversation with
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me? No, of course they
do, but so automated. Give me
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a way of seeing all that.
And, by the way, we call
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it internally, and my CEO of
this it calls it a leaky boocket.
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Right, so leaky funnel, leaky
books, the same thing. So the
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idea of that is if I can
minimize the fall out of every as much
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as possible. You can never completely
do it, but if I can minimize
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suspects and MQL's that fall out by
at least showing that some of them haven't
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been followed upon, like that's that
is my nirvana, because then I don't
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I can honestly say no, the
sales teams have followed up. So maybe
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it's something with the content or maybe
it's not the right channel, but then
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at least it becomes less about or
well, sales are not falling up on
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all these leads their fall because that
is what we're trying to get away from
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as an enterprise and organized tion.
Like it's not sales fault, it's not
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marketings fault, but let's at least
be looking at the same data yeah,
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it takes away a lot of the
the worried anxiety, the fear of failure
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here, because once you get yourself
to a mental space where you understand it,
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no matter what happens with this campaign, because we have the kind of
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insight that you're talking about, the
AI gives us is all data points,
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it's all information we can use,
and so there's no reason to shrink away
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from that. I as as uncomfortable
and, you know, as shameful as
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nudity can be, can be liberating
as well. So so so to be
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closed in that kind of way.
You know that it's human to want to
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shrink away from it, but at
the end of the day, once you
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that's something I believe in. A
lot of folks say, you know,
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truth hurts. I tell you,
I stayed off time. Troop is liberating.
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So and you would. I'm so
excited about my organization or other organizations,
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what we all stand to gain once
we accept that there's going to be
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that discomfort in exposing those, you
know, leaks in the bucket and then
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using what we have now in a
smart way to get past that, to
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break through that. I mean you're
right, and no sale as a marketing
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person wants to be naked in front
of the other organization and really be stripped
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down a like like Oh, you
can really see what I have and haven't
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done. So that's a really good
analogy wout. You know, I think
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that we do get questions from prospects
as we're talking about, like well,
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well, when you're doing this and
you and you understand all the sales activities,
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don't you get salespeople who are like, I don't want this. What's
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going on? Like, I don't
want people knowing what I'm up to?
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Yeah, of course we do.
But you know what, those are the
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people who are probably sandbagging, who
are probably not working that hand and they
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don't really want to have that exposed. Yeah, and the progress and they
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know it and they know it right. I mean, let's talk about let's
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talk about one of the quintessential,
quintessential parts of the sales process, forecasting.
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Forecasting is essentially a book. It's
a bug in the system because you
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basically relying on someone that says,
yeah, I think this is here and
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we've had a meeting, but they
don't track all that data. The Not
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who they've met with or what was
setting the meeting. So then that gets
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rolled up and a fancy tool that
shows like what you're going to close and
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at the end of the quarter you
hit sixty percent and everyone goes, oh
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well, we miss that. You're
right, we did miss that because you're
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still relying on this salesperson to say
I think this is going to happen.
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Now, we're not talking about removing
that, but wouldn't it be useful to
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be able to add something that said, okay, I can show you in
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the sales process, based on every
deal you've ever closed within the organization,
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typically you need these types of people
and these activities to move this forward.
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Wouldn't the sales lead of benefit from
being able to call the sales rep and
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say, Hey, typically we have
a CFO at stage five of these types
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of deals? You don't have a
CFO in your deal right now, but
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you're calling it to closing for weeks. It's that really true? HMM,
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like, what power? What power
you have without information? And like,
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I mean the sales post is like, okay, you might be right,
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but what is it? Is An
enterprise, like get the book out of
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forecasting. Let's add some real quality
data to it too. I'm to tell
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you this, what this reminds me
of, and then we better get to
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the next second, because I could
just do this all day. But so,
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when I was little, my Dad, my dad likes to throw like
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parties and invite friends over and drink
beers and play spades. Right, you
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play spade, you bid right.
Right. So, so, without without
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ai and without that insight, right, it's like the sales person forecasting.
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The sales person say, I don't
know, I got to in a possible
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right. They're talking about what they
can do based on only what they can
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see in their own hands. Right. When we make a broader picture of
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that and we add into the mix
this ai, that's like when my days
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to have me walk around the table
and with the other people's hands so that
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he could say that's something different,
so that he could say what he what
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he will, lets he had insight
into what had been played or what was
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the what was more likely to happen. Then not right, because part of
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what he's betting, always forecasting is
based on well, I have, you
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know, this joker or whatever.
Right, but if he doesn't know that
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this other person, typically that don't
work. You know, I'm saying,
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like he doesn't. If he has
this in his hand, then it's not
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likely that you're going to get what
you think you're going to get. So
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it's that extra level of him sight
that you made me sort of picture there
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when you when you told that story. Like the again, let's let's pull
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let's come back to what the initial
concept of what a I can do here.
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Is it not to say, Oh, it's not to say all salespeople
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alling when they forecast. Of course
not. And, by the way,
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sales is still one of the hardest
jobs to do, the pressure that you
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know the things you have to do. So I get that and I'm on
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board with it. But if you, if you had the opportunity to have
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a level of data and intelligence underneath
it that could make you feel more comfortable
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and more secure in it. That's
what we're talking about. It's not to
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say you don't need to forecast,
but it's to say, is that the
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measure of whether you're going to hit
the quarter, or is there some other
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way of measuring through contact, activity
and engagement? Is there another way of
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saying, do we really feel confident
that this is going to close right?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
love it. So, like I said,
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it's a there's several episodes with which
I could fill a conversation with you,
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because so passionate about this and so
knowledgeable about it and, you know,
351
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frankly, just so much fun to
talk to. Good but but now
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now that on this subject, that
I have successfully picked your brain and seeing
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00:26:00.789 --> 00:26:03.029
what I could get out of it, and it's time for you to tell
354
00:26:03.069 --> 00:26:07.220
us about what you're putting in it. So talk to us about a a
355
00:26:07.299 --> 00:26:11.180
learning resource that you've engaged with here
recently that is informing your approach, that
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she's got you excited these days.
Well, I would tell you I have.
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I have two things to mention.
The first one when I joined the
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company I've found and CEO recommends you
read the hard thing about hot things by
359
00:26:27.170 --> 00:26:32.369
Ben Horowitz, so that was that's
his his book is about being a founder.
360
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It's small companies and is about everything
that is terrifying about being there,
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about lack of sleep and all that
kind of think it's a brilliant book and
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00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:45.039
obviously you know and resent horrow,
it's have become one of the biggest investment
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00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:49.549
firms in the valley. So that
I would say I learned a lot going
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into a small company like don't freak
out when things don't go your way.
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Really, you know, this is
normal. So that's something that I learned.
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And then another book that we're all
trying to read internally is a book
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called who, and I took for
the life of me, I don't remember
368
00:27:07.180 --> 00:27:11.380
the name of the author right now, but the WHO book is around recruiting
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talent and in the bay area in
tech, hiring and retaining talent is one
370
00:27:18.930 --> 00:27:23.410
of it, if not the hardest
things to do. There are so many
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opportunities, there's so many different companies, there's so many big companies. Now
372
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you've got the facebook and Google and
sales force thing, like they just throw
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money at people. So the WHO
book is around the best way to recruit
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the right people and it's interesting because
I've always considered myself pretty good at judging
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people and recruiting and, you know, managing talent. But there's just reading
376
00:27:51.029 --> 00:27:56.309
through that book around have certain types
of questions. How you ask them?
377
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How do identify things like culture fit? What I learned was some of the
378
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things that I've been doing, like
I hadn't been pushing hard enough and the
379
00:28:03.700 --> 00:28:08.859
mistakes that I've made over the last
few years in hiring. That book helped
380
00:28:08.900 --> 00:28:15.130
me identify them. So if you
are in a recruiting role, you don't
381
00:28:15.170 --> 00:28:18.490
have to be CEO CMOC Arrow,
but if you're a recruit, if you're
382
00:28:18.529 --> 00:28:23.529
if you're looking to hire people and
you maybe have had some challenges or maybe
383
00:28:23.529 --> 00:28:27.119
if few mistakes or whatever, I
would recommend that book hands down, because
384
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I learned so much about improving my
own process and I realize I may think
385
00:28:32.240 --> 00:28:34.440
I'm good, but we all have
things to learn every once in a while.
386
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:38.240
So I'd highly recommend that. Nice
it did might also be a good
387
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:42.670
hack. I mean, if you're
looking for opportunities, this is what folks
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00:28:42.710 --> 00:28:47.230
who are recruiting and hiring are reading. You would do well to make sure
389
00:28:47.349 --> 00:28:49.829
solfaware. So thank you for that
and getting us that tiny bit of insight
390
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into to what's moving you these days. Like me, I know that everybody
391
00:28:53.950 --> 00:28:57.299
listening has become a fast fan of
yours and they're going to want to keep
392
00:28:57.299 --> 00:29:00.700
up with you. So tell us, stale, how people can connect with
393
00:29:00.779 --> 00:29:06.380
you. Well, so I'm always
hanging around linkedin trying to post things that
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00:29:06.460 --> 00:29:08.660
I think a useful so I'm on
Linkedin, I have a twitter handle.
395
00:29:10.329 --> 00:29:14.930
It's I won't explain why, but
it's Marina Das, a long story.
396
00:29:15.529 --> 00:29:21.089
Won't go into it. So I'm
generally on and around that and you know
397
00:29:21.170 --> 00:29:25.200
I'm hoping, as this company keeps
growing, that you'll see me at industry
398
00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:29.599
conferences and other places like that.
Well, at the very least, will
399
00:29:29.599 --> 00:29:30.640
probably see you on the show again
because, like I said, this was
400
00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:34.920
fun and I got more questions for
you. You're great. I appreciate the
401
00:29:36.000 --> 00:29:41.230
time. We totally get it.
We publish a ton of content on this
402
00:29:41.349 --> 00:29:45.670
podcast and it can be a lot
to keep up with. That's where we've
403
00:29:45.710 --> 00:29:49.029
started. The BEDB growth big three, a no fluff email that boils down
404
00:29:49.069 --> 00:29:53.819
our three biggest takeaways from an entire
week of episodes. Sign up today at
405
00:29:53.859 --> 00:30:00.140
Sweet Fish Mediacom big three. That
sweet fish Mediacom Big Three