Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hey there, this is James Carberry, founder of sweet fish media and one
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of the cohosts of this show.
For the last year and a half I've
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been working on my very first book. In the book I share the three
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part framework we've used as the foundation
for our growth. Here is sweetfish.
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Now there are lots of companies that
everased a bunch of money and have grown
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insanely fast, and we featured a
lot of them here on the show.
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We've decided to bootstrap our business,
which usually equates to pretty slow growth,
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but using the strategy outlined in the
book, we are on pace to be
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one of inks fastest growing companies in
two thousand and twenty. The book is
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called content based networking, how to
instantly connect with anyone you want to know.
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If you're a fan of audio books
like me, you can find the
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book on audible, or if you
like physical books, you can also find
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it on Amazon. Just search content
based networking or James carberry CR be aary
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in audible or Amazon and it should
pop right up. All right, let's
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get into the show. Welcome back
to beb growth. I'm Logan lyles with
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sweet fish media. Today I'm joined
by Josh Sturgeon. He is the cofounder
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over at Ember tribe and, Oh, by the way, he's a host
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of another podcast remote. Well,
Josh, how's it going today? Man,
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it's going great. Logan things for
happing me on. Yeah, absolutely,
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Man. So we're not going to
be talking about podcasting, though you
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guys have a great podcast. Will
have to link to that in the show
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notes because I always love plug in
other great podcasts and I'm going to be
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checking it out as we run a
fully remote team. But today we're going
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to be talking about three phase of
coach to developing better messaging before you start
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any new ad campaign. So often
people tend to skip over the importance of
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good copy good messaging. So I'm
really excited to hear about this, especially
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for my own personal use, because
we're ramping up some of our page strategies
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here in two thousand and twenty here
at sweet fish. But before we get
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into that, Josha, would love
for you to give a little context to
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listeners. Tell us a little bit
about your background and what you and the
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ember dribe up to these days.
Man. Yeah, for sure, I'll
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give you the the quick background.
My back story, you know, had
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a very kind of uncommon start into
the world of digital marketing, which was
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I got introduced to through a dying
phone book company where I did doortodoor sales
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and they were trying desperately to pilot
it digital offering to their to their SMB
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clients, and so I didn't last
long there, but got some good sales
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experience and some good punches in the
face and then very quickly started to learn
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on my own. You know,
things like Seo and paid search and even
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paid social in the early days.
Had some time in an agency where I
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was a director of innovation. Get
to work with some really large budgets and
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see things in a large scale,
but we're really kind of home in the
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craft. was with a business that
my wife and I had started in another
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couple startups that we ended up going
on to sell. So all of that
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was the back history before starting amber
tribe, and amber tribe is a performance
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marketing agency where we tend to work
with a lot of early stage and growth
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stage startups and we want to bring
something to market that would be a service
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that really was results focused and gave
actually these founders very quick timelines to understand
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what was going to work and what
was going to work in order to grow.
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I think the thing that would set
us apart from any of our peers
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is really just this testing methodology that
we've grown over time, which allows us
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to get to answers quicker, find
traction quicker than ultimately scale up our clients
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businesses quicker than usual. Awesome,
man. Well, it's a lot of
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that that's led to this three phase
approach that you use with your clients and,
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unlike well, our net's character on
the office, you're actually going to
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share all three today, but I
would love for you to give us a
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little bit of you know, you
mentioned as we were chatting offline that it's
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a little bit different than your typical
buy our persona research methodology. Maybe give
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us a little background and kind of
what led you guys to this, and
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then we're going to break down each
of the three phases of this approach.
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Man, for sure. Yeah,
I'll preface it all by saying there's really
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no substitute for talking to your customers
or talking to your prospects and getting that
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facetoface or that phone call. You
really don't want to rush over that step,
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but the reality is that a lot
of marketing teams in particular, are
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fooling themselves the way that they approach
persona research, as it's commonly known,
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and usually what it constitutes, if
you've been any of these meetings before,
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is finding some sort of alliterative name
for your target prospect, you know,
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Sally Spender or whatever it might be. That'll take fifteen to twenty minutes,
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and then you're going through and you're
guessing at what makes that person tick.
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You're guessing at how much money they
make per year, you're guessing at what
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shows they watch on Netflix and all
sorts of things, things that are at
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best speculative and at worst completely wrong
and have no actionable kind of impact on
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your marketing strategy. So what we
realize really early on is that that exercise
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is and going to get results for
these, you know, early stage founders
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that need to get results and show
progress to milestones. So what we did
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is we started to try to take
a more data driven approach to very rapidly
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understand and enter into the mind of
the person that we're trying to reach.
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And basically, through that experience we've
been able to teach this to other people
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and it's a an exercise that might
take thirty to sixty minutes and we'll just
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put you much farther ahead that if
you didn't do it in the first place.
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Right, so you're going to start
at a level of higher performance then
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you would have otherwise. I love
what you said. They're about, you
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know, no substitute for talking to
your customers. We do a series here
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on be to be growth called why
podcast work. We had John Brugie,
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who folks know is a cohost of
this show, but he was talking about
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his experience being a host of people
in places a podcast he's hosted for a
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company called Skyfy, and he talked
about, you know, oftentimes we produce
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podcast and at someone from the marketing
team who heads up hosting and kind of
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that strategy and they're surprised by the
fact that, hey, when they feature
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customers and when they feature prospects,
it helps them iterate on their messaging so
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much faster, because it's not that
typical by our persona research. That's a
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lot of guessing. It's it's one
on one. It is hearing directly from
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them. So that just reminded me
to that for anybody who's kind of maybe
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already has a podcast and could leverage
at a little bit more than they've been
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thinking about that. Will Link to
that in the show notes. So with
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that, Josh, we're going to
jump into the three phases. So you
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you describe them as finding the watering
holes, analyzing patterns and then convert that
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into your messaging strategy. Let's talk
about number one. Finding the watering holes
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first, perfect. Yeah, so
this is nothing more than just doing a
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little bit of research, googling,
understanding or even from your own experience,
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understanding where your audience is gathering in
order to ask questions, find resources.
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What are the hubs where they're spending
time in a digital sense, and you
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know, in our experience that boils
down into a few different places. The
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first for be to be in particular. The first is review sites. So
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you're thinking about trust rays, you're
thinking about Cap Tera, places where there's
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good, vetted feedback in reviews from
actual users and customers, and really what
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you're looking at there are how people
are talking about your competitors and other people
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in the space, and that I'll
come to bear in a little bit.
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But the other kind of subcategory there
would be communities. So your thinking about
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lenking groups, facebook groups, niche
forums, that are, you know,
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cater to your particular industry or rotocol. You know, be able to go
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in there and get the cover commentary
in the real questions that people are asking
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and the other answers that people are
giving, whether the right or not,
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is absolute gold. And then the
last is what I would consider like your
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resource community, and that's your Cora
or in some cases are Reddit, where
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there's just very explicit at questions and
answers being given and you're able to drill
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down pretty quickly from a category standpoint
to understand what's going on there. Hey,
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everybody, logan with sweet fish here. You probably already know that we
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think you should start a podcast if
you haven't already. But what if you
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have and you're asking these kinds of
questions? How much has our podcast impacted
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revenue this year? How is our
sales team actually leveraging the PODCAST content?
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If you can't answer these questions,
you're actually not alone. This is why
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and here at sweetfish have started using
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podcasts, and you probably can to. You can check out the product in
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action and casted dot US growth.
That's sea steed dot US growth. All
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right, let's get back to the
show. I love it. You know,
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you point out some some good examples
on the review site. Obviously we're
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big fans of the folks over at
GTO. There's another, you know,
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resource that you can look at.
There are there's some common things that you
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recommend folks do, Josh, as
they look at these different watering holes.
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As you put it, to put
more way, is it based on the
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number of questions? The type of
questions? Do you kind of put this
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lens on? Okay, these questions
hold a little bit more weight, not
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necessarily because they're being asked more,
but because they speak to a certain stance
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of the buyer person or something like
that. Yeah, you definitely. It's
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funny. This is less of a
numbers game and more of a qualitative exercise,
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but at the same time you need
to have a large enough sample size
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for this just not to be some
loose cannon. Who is talking about you
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know, the competitor. So what
we typically tell people is to zoom in
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really tight and try to find direct
competitors, try to find, you know,
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something that's exactly relevant to your offering
what you do. But in the
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case that there's not, like maybe
you're plotting a new category, maybe you're
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very, very new to the space
and there's not a lot to go off
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of, then you want to zoom
out kind of, you know, fifty
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percent or whatever the where the direction
might be, and do something that's kind
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of maybe solving part of the problem
or it's a good proxy for how people
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are trying to solve their problem.
Now maybe it's another tool that just has
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a little bit of overlap, but
the point is is to try to go
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really tight in the beginning and if
there's just not enough quantity or quality,
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zoom out another frame and really you're
just trying to get insight into your audience
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and even if they're not directly solving
the problem that you're solving, it gives
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you a line of sight to their
their process of thinking about how they can
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go about solving the problem. I
love it, man, that makes a
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lot of sense. A quick side
note. Something that's been helpful for me,
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not necessarily in analyzing our competitors,
but looking at competitors of maybe prospects
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that I'm talking to, that sort
of stuff. If you're super early in
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figuring out who are competitors, look
at crunch based, look at Owler.
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Owler has a plugin to crunch base, which is where you know I typically
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look. So just a side note
there. I love the way that you're
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approaching that. That first step,
as you talked about it, Josh,
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finding the watering holes. Let's move
on to analyzing patterns, which you've kind
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of already spoken to a little bit. What are some of the the tools
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and the techniques that you recommend in
the second phase? Man, exactly.
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Yeah, so really in this is
a common thread through all of this is
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that there's no shortage of quantitative data
out there. You can buy research reports,
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you can get benchmarks for cosper click. All of that is really really
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available, but what's missing in this
modern era of digital marketing is the qualitative
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info. So really, in this
stage all you want to do is be
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able to quickly and at scale gather
the information that you've uncovered from these different
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communities and then be able to just
have a very quick representation of the main
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points, the patterns, the things
that keep showing up. So what we
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do here is, if you have
coding experience, we have technical ability on
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your team, maybe they can build
something in python or something like that.
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But if you don't have those resources, you don't need them. What we
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recommend is using a tool called scrape. Similar IT'S A it's a scraping tool
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that works in your browser. It's
a chrome extension and what it allows you
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to do is say, let's you
found a great cora thread or great core
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category, to be said more accurately. You can literally, you know,
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right click the first question or answer
in that search results page and automatically scrape
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or copied your clipboard all the questions
that are kind of populated there. So
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it's a great, really quick,
easy way just to grab everything, if
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you're non technical, and paste it
to a notepad. That's all you're going
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to do is just grab the content
using this free extension and paste it into
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the into the NOTEPAD. Now this
is where you can go as fancy or,
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as you know, not, are
just simple as you want to go.
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But really what it's about at this
point is just getting the broad strokes.
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So what we like to do is, once we've gathered a repository of
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all the questions, sorted by category, just Google for like a word cloud
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visualization tool, and it's a quick
and dirty way just to paste in everything
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that you've gathered. And then what
the word cloud does is starts to just
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show you, in terms of intensity, of the size and the Faun of
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the word, just the patterns,
the questions, the things that keep emerging,
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you know, through all the different
threads, and it's a very quickly.
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It takes you thirty seconds or less
to start seeing. Oh, you
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know, everybody's talking about customer service
or everybody's talking about you know, how
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how difficult it is and how technically
you have to be to set up this,
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you know, competitor software or whatever
it might be. Man, I
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love that those visualization tools can be
really, really important. We just had
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Nancy Duarte on the podcast talking about
her new her new book data story,
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and one of the things we talked
about was, you know, oftentimes we
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look at the data but we don't
call out the point that we want people
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to key in on. And you
know, you're not talking about necessarily communicating
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that externally. You're talking about looking
at it yourself, but just realizing that
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we need that. We need,
you know, for something to jump out
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to us so that we can recognize
those patterns, and a word clouds is
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a great way to do this.
When you're looking at this, you know,
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qualitative trans sort of analysis. So
talk to us, Josh, about
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phase three. We've found the watering
holes, we've analyzed the patterns, focusing
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on the qualitative, how do we
start to transition that into messaging for our
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ad campaigns, because that's eventually where
we want to go right exactly? Yeah,
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this isn't just an exercise to do
for fun and for stock and people.
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What you really want to do is
able to turn this into an actionable,
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you know, piece of copy or
creative, you know, wherever you're
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using it. So one thing I'll
mention, though, on the analysis side
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of it, is you really want
to key into the emotional trigger words,
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and so that is is really,
really important, because you want to pay
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attention to the things. It's say, I hate or you know, this
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kills me, or whatever whatever the
emotional true your word might be. That's
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where people are really feeling pain and
it's where you can potentially come in and
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tap into that pain. And reposition
your client or your own business, you
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know, in a positive life.
So pay attention to those. But yes,
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when it comes to the implementation phase, really what you're trying to do
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is synthesize the patterns that you've uncovered
from your research and then convert that into
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a very concise kind of messaging point. And so the way that we do
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this is we create a very simple
matrix and we say, okay, here's
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the persona call them whatever you want
to call them. Really here's the pain
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that they're trying to solve or the
outcome that they're trying to achieve, and
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then the last piece of it is
the product story. So, basically,
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based on what we've been covered and
based on this concise understanding of what really
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their most pain or ask or highest
aspiration is, using their own language,
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how do we position in our products
according to that narrative? So what's the
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product story? What's the story that
we tell to this person about how we
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can help them get what they want? And that really just becomes the basis
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for any sort of add copy testing
or visual creatives that you use. And
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just want to give you, guys, a concrete example of how this has
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worked. So we had a client
in a very competitive software space where there's
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some really big income and players with, you know, Mans of dollars spent
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every month on paid search. So
we went through this exact same exercience,
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with a few more bells and whistles, but effectively the same exercize. And
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then we covered that. You know, some of the the biggest gripes that
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our prospects had were about customer service. Just took so long for anybody to
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get back to them. Now our
client was not thinking about that at all.
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Their thing about the features of their
platform. They're thinking about all the
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ways that they do x, Y
and Z better. But our research and
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covered this huge pain point, which
is the real emotional driver. And they
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say that people buy an emotion.
They buy what they justify with logic,
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and so we use that. We
literally we didn't get to creative with it.
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We're just said, you know,
in a campaign that targeted all over
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competitors users, we basically said tired
of waiting days on end for an answer.
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Get two seven fast customer service.
Let's talk more whatever that it's not
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what it said about. It is. It's effectively that. But but that
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shift of the customer service pain point, nothing about the features, the benefits,
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the pain of what the products solved, because what you found is that
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those customers of that competitor, they
weren't talking about lack of features. They
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they're satisfied there. So if you're
like, well, we're two percent better
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here, right, versus this area
where they're a fifty out of a hundred
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and you can take them to ninety, that's a more compelling jump for those
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prospects. Right. That's it,
man, and really I mean the outcome
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here was that their costproly dropped by
eighty percent. Their sales pipeline for in
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terms of like Book Strategy Calls,
which was the key metric, was to
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the roof, and so we're able
to take their budget and get way more
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leverage out of it, one because
of the platforms that we chose to try
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to like go where the competitors weren't
going. But a big driver of it
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was just tapping into the emotion,
in the pain of the audience that they
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never really thought of when they invested
alldest time and money building they're really great
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products. I love it, man, that that's such a really great tactical
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example and we love given listeners here, you know, something they can walk
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away with. So, you know, just to recap for folks, this
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three phase approach that Josh and his
team, you know, are executing on
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a regular basis. Thing about finding
those watering holes you talked about, you
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know, review sites, communities and
forums, as well as resource commune unities,
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analyzing the patterns, focusing, as
you mentioned here in this last example,
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on the qualitative, on those emotional
trigger words, and then converting that
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into a messaging strategy, which you
guys have, you know, built out
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a matrix for to organize that.
Josh, if anybody listening to this would
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like to reach out pick your brain
a little bit more on this topic or
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just stay connected with you in the
team over at ever try man, what
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would be the best way for them
to go about doing that? Yeah,
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for sure. We're pretty easy to
find. You know, everything ember tribe
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away. It is going to be
ember tribecom, which is emder tribecom.
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People can email me there. It's
Josh at what you might think the company
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is, and I'm on twitter,
I'm on Linkedin. Happy to connect and
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I need those platforms answer questions,
have a reconversation awesome and I appreciate you
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actually giving us all three phases to
the approach, not just one of them
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today. I think it's going to
deliver a ton of value to listeners.
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Thanks so much for being on the
show man. Thanks lag. We totally
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get it. We publish a ton
of content on this podcast and it can
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00:18:57.119 --> 00:19:00.839
be a lot to keep up with. That's why we've started the BTB growth
291
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:06.640
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