1215: 4 Benefits of a Marketing Rotational Program w/ Pat Johnson

WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.000 --> 00:00:11.310 Looking for a guaranteed way to create content that resonates with your audience? Start 2 00:00:11.310 --> 00:00:16.230 a podcast, interview your ideal clients and let them choose the topic of the 3 00:00:16.350 --> 00:00:20.670 interview, because if your ideal clients care about the topic, there's a good 4 00:00:20.710 --> 00:00:24.539 chance the rest of your audience will care about it too. Learn more at 5 00:00:24.620 --> 00:00:32.979 sweet fish Mediacom. You're listening to be tob growth, a daily podcast for 6 00:00:33.100 --> 00:00:37.329 B TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary Vannerd 7 00:00:37.329 --> 00:00:41.090 truck and Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard from the majority of our 8 00:00:41.170 --> 00:00:46.130 guests. That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. 9 00:00:46.689 --> 00:00:50.039 Most of our guests are in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. 10 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:55.479 They're implementing strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing BB 11 00:00:55.600 --> 00:00:58.960 companies in the world. My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of 12 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:02.840 sweet fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm also one 13 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:06.469 of the CO hosts of this show. When we're not interviewing sales and marketing 14 00:01:06.549 --> 00:01:10.390 leaders, you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of our own business. Will 15 00:01:10.430 --> 00:01:12.709 share the ups and downs of our journey as we attempt to take over the 16 00:01:12.790 --> 00:01:23.420 world. Just getting well, maybe let's get into the show. Welcome back 17 00:01:23.459 --> 00:01:26.739 to be tob growth. I'm logging lyles with sweet phish media. I'm joined 18 00:01:26.780 --> 00:01:33.090 today my Pat Johnson, senior strategic marketing initiative specialist over at Adobe. Pat, 19 00:01:33.170 --> 00:01:34.129 how's it going today? Man, good Logan, how you doing, 20 00:01:34.290 --> 00:01:38.730 my friend? I am doing wonderful where chat and football. It's a long 21 00:01:38.849 --> 00:01:42.170 time until the first broncos game of next season, but you and I are 22 00:01:42.209 --> 00:01:46.250 both looking forward to it. More to the point, though, today, 23 00:01:46.370 --> 00:01:49.159 you and I were chatting the other day about the unique rotational program you guys 24 00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:53.680 have going over within the marketing function at Adobe. We're going to be unpacking 25 00:01:53.799 --> 00:01:59.359 that see what other marketing teams can learn from that, some specific benefits, 26 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:01.390 I think we've got at least four, that you've experienced, and what other 27 00:02:01.469 --> 00:02:06.269 marketing teams can learn from that and potentially implement. Before we get into that, 28 00:02:06.390 --> 00:02:07.349 man, for folks who don't know you as well as I do, 29 00:02:07.509 --> 00:02:10.870 give us a little bit of background on yourself and what you and your team 30 00:02:10.949 --> 00:02:14.550 over at Adobe you're up to these days. Man, yeah, absolutely, 31 00:02:14.590 --> 00:02:16.819 and thanks for that and thank you for bring up the broncos very early on. 32 00:02:16.900 --> 00:02:20.659 It's going to be a long offseason and probably a long few years, 33 00:02:20.699 --> 00:02:23.060 but will keep to a native calords. I think we'll both keep those hopes 34 00:02:23.060 --> 00:02:27.939 alive. But yeah, so I've been with adobe for about two years. 35 00:02:28.460 --> 00:02:32.729 I've been in what started at Marquetto, before Marquetto was acquired by adobe. 36 00:02:34.090 --> 00:02:38.129 We had formed a marketing rotational program and I was kind of first person to 37 00:02:38.169 --> 00:02:42.090 run through it in short over a two year period. Some mine's coming to 38 00:02:42.129 --> 00:02:46.560 the end now. I'm given four different rotations within different disciplines of the marketing. 39 00:02:46.719 --> 00:02:51.360 So in my case it was product marketing and Customer Demand Generation, folks 40 00:02:51.400 --> 00:02:53.000 on the install based and cross cell and all that kind of stuff. We 41 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:57.479 can dive into all that and kind of go through my a tacical experience and 42 00:02:57.599 --> 00:03:00.750 just why I'm so passionate about evangelizing this kind of rotational program for people that 43 00:03:00.830 --> 00:03:05.430 are really young in their career. How do we how do we take talent 44 00:03:05.509 --> 00:03:07.750 that comes in at lower levels, just out of college and nurtured in a 45 00:03:07.830 --> 00:03:12.939 really holistic and well round way that works for the employee and for the business 46 00:03:12.939 --> 00:03:15.139 itself? So yeah, absolutely, man. I could just tell when we 47 00:03:15.219 --> 00:03:19.060 were chatting the other day and you talked about some of your experience in this 48 00:03:19.180 --> 00:03:21.740 program. I thought, and there are going to be some things for other 49 00:03:21.819 --> 00:03:23.819 people to learn from that. So in a bit we're going to get into 50 00:03:23.860 --> 00:03:28.409 some of the specific benefits that you, as a marketer, by going through 51 00:03:28.849 --> 00:03:30.930 this sort of program, have seen. But let's set the stage a little 52 00:03:30.930 --> 00:03:36.210 bit for folks who have never heard of this sort of rotational program give us 53 00:03:36.210 --> 00:03:38.409 a little sense of the scope and then we'll dive into, as you pointed 54 00:03:38.449 --> 00:03:44.120 out earlier, benefits to an organization for implementing something like this and then benefits 55 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:47.000 to the marketers who are going through this sort of program. So let's back 56 00:03:47.039 --> 00:03:50.599 it up and talk about, you know, just kind of size and scope 57 00:03:50.639 --> 00:03:53.439 and implementation of what you guys have today at a Dobe. Yeah, no 58 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:57.270 doubt. So it started a Marquetta. As I mentioned, it was definitely 59 00:03:57.270 --> 00:04:00.789 a walk, crawl run type of set up with us. I was the 60 00:04:00.830 --> 00:04:03.830 first person to come in and over about six months we keept bringing in one 61 00:04:03.870 --> 00:04:06.710 rotator at a time, which was a perfect way for us to implement it. 62 00:04:06.949 --> 00:04:12.900 In short, wherever there was a business need for someone who did not 63 00:04:13.139 --> 00:04:17.980 have the maybe technical experience or really the marketing landscape or the landscape of what 64 00:04:18.019 --> 00:04:21.220 we were trying to do at Marquetto on that team. If there was a 65 00:04:21.300 --> 00:04:25.730 place where some could be plugged in really quickly, knowing that it was going 66 00:04:25.810 --> 00:04:30.129 to a kind of plug that gap and to be a really great way for 67 00:04:30.209 --> 00:04:32.850 some to kind of dive in and get their feeware really quickly, that's kind 68 00:04:32.850 --> 00:04:36.730 of where rotators would come in to play. And so I came into product 69 00:04:36.769 --> 00:04:42.160 marketing on my first rotation, for example, and there was some turnover that 70 00:04:42.199 --> 00:04:44.560 happened for I got there. That was kind of just a weird time in 71 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:47.839 Marquetto's history and I got my hands on so many projects that I just had 72 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:51.990 no business doing, and I think that's for the employee, for the rotator, 73 00:04:53.029 --> 00:04:55.589 that's a really great side of it. But if you hire right, 74 00:04:55.589 --> 00:04:59.110 if you're if you're looking at rotators as really talented, if they have the 75 00:04:59.189 --> 00:05:01.709 right experience, I think that there's a lot that they can do to surprise 76 00:05:01.750 --> 00:05:04.829 you. For, you know, a lower payment. You know it's an 77 00:05:04.829 --> 00:05:08.699 entry level job, it's someone coming out out of college, but they are 78 00:05:08.819 --> 00:05:12.019 given an opportunity and hopefully they prove it right. So that's kind of how 79 00:05:12.019 --> 00:05:16.220 we built the program at Marquetto and it was adopted by a dobe very enthusiastically 80 00:05:16.379 --> 00:05:19.860 and we now have five rotators. I'm going to be the first one to 81 00:05:20.100 --> 00:05:26.250 complete the program in its entirety and we have a place program after that where 82 00:05:26.250 --> 00:05:28.689 I'm still kind of working through that and seeing what the next step is, 83 00:05:28.850 --> 00:05:31.970 but it's been the best. It's just I can't give enough praise to having 84 00:05:32.009 --> 00:05:35.600 a program like this in our company. It's up level of my career. 85 00:05:35.639 --> 00:05:40.000 It's up will, I hope, the business. That sounds a little conceited, 86 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:42.720 but I hope it's up level with the business and I think it's something 87 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:46.279 that everyone should consider. Yeah, absolutely, Man. So with that, 88 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:48.399 I think you know my next question was going to be around the benefits to 89 00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:51.029 the organization, but I think we circle back to that. I just can't 90 00:05:51.069 --> 00:05:54.910 wait to dive in to some of the things that you've seen by going through 91 00:05:55.029 --> 00:06:00.470 this. You mentioned to me before that building bridges across teams and going into 92 00:06:00.629 --> 00:06:04.180 the rest of your marketing career with that sort of mindset has been one of 93 00:06:04.259 --> 00:06:09.220 the big things for you right absolutely, Our man and Angelic Spouse, Swiss 94 00:06:09.220 --> 00:06:12.019 Army Knights, and it's kind of true we have to pull a lot out 95 00:06:12.060 --> 00:06:15.660 that we might not even know we have in our tool kids. Sometimes we're 96 00:06:15.699 --> 00:06:20.449 putting positions where we need to approach a problem that we may not have experienced 97 00:06:20.449 --> 00:06:25.170 in a new rotation, but we sort of have the advantage point of other 98 00:06:25.329 --> 00:06:28.250 teams that we've been on. You know, if there's something about to go 99 00:06:28.329 --> 00:06:31.209 to market strategy and I'm sitting on demand generation, there's kind of a demand 100 00:06:31.250 --> 00:06:35.600 generation way to do that right. There's also a product marketing way where they're 101 00:06:35.639 --> 00:06:39.800 looking at things are an entirely different angle and they might have the voice of 102 00:06:39.959 --> 00:06:42.800 the customer, they might have the customers ere a little bit better. How 103 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:46.319 can I help demand an adopt? That? I think is a great place 104 00:06:46.480 --> 00:06:49.230 for a rotator, someone who's kind of in this transient role, to pick 105 00:06:49.430 --> 00:06:53.910 and choose the things that are going to be very cross function of it, 106 00:06:53.990 --> 00:06:58.949 are going to carry across that catoism and really provide a little bit of value 107 00:06:58.949 --> 00:07:01.699 and a little bit more perspective round issues that some teams have been doing their 108 00:07:01.779 --> 00:07:05.220 own way for so long. I think that's a huge, huge benefit of 109 00:07:05.300 --> 00:07:09.540 something like this. Yeah, absolutely. I think I saw Dave Gearhart on 110 00:07:09.699 --> 00:07:13.699 twitter this week talk about one of the worst reasons you could do something in 111 00:07:13.819 --> 00:07:16.209 your marketing Org, and that is because we've always done it that way. 112 00:07:16.209 --> 00:07:19.689 Right. The other thing I love there is it you talking about, you 113 00:07:19.769 --> 00:07:24.449 know, just that fresh perspective that you bring two different teams fat. So 114 00:07:24.689 --> 00:07:27.970 can you remind me how long do you typically in the way that you guys 115 00:07:28.009 --> 00:07:31.319 do a rotator program? How long do you spend in in each disciplined you 116 00:07:31.560 --> 00:07:34.959 do dedicate, you know, a certain amount of time to each one before 117 00:07:35.079 --> 00:07:40.680 you start kind of rotating around and hopping from project to project? Or how 118 00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:44.470 should people think about, you know, implementing that maybe in the early days 119 00:07:44.470 --> 00:07:47.389 to get some of those benefits? Definitely great question. It's a learning process, 120 00:07:47.430 --> 00:07:49.269 I would say, and, as I mentioned, I was the first 121 00:07:49.269 --> 00:07:54.470 one to go through so there were some higups in terms of transition time and 122 00:07:54.509 --> 00:07:59.620 all that. But in Shure it's four rotations six months each. You kind 123 00:07:59.660 --> 00:08:03.019 of start mapping out where your next rotations going to be a month in advance, 124 00:08:03.379 --> 00:08:07.699 you know, obviously not really knowing much about the candidate as you're interviewing 125 00:08:07.699 --> 00:08:09.420 them and all that there's going to kind of be throwing darts at a wall. 126 00:08:09.500 --> 00:08:13.410 It feels like you'll start to very quickly, at least for me and 127 00:08:13.529 --> 00:08:16.529 for the experience of the other rotators here. We begin to see what we're 128 00:08:16.529 --> 00:08:18.449 good at, what we're interested in, as do our managers. In terms 129 00:08:18.490 --> 00:08:24.569 of time splits and time shares. We dedicated about twenty five percent to the 130 00:08:24.769 --> 00:08:28.079 demand operations team, which is where the rotational program sits within our organization. 131 00:08:28.360 --> 00:08:33.559 So there's kind of a homebase team where we support a lot of those more 132 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:37.679 tactable operational functions, which in itself is a great place to sit. Everyone 133 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:41.429 on our team gets certified in Marquetto everyone on our team has a few just 134 00:08:41.549 --> 00:08:43.549 corresponsibilities that are critical to the business and we do get to see that kind 135 00:08:43.590 --> 00:08:48.070 of Tenzero foot view that that specific organization holds. And then the other seventy 136 00:08:48.110 --> 00:08:52.029 five percent of our time we dotted line into whatever a team were rotated on 137 00:08:52.190 --> 00:08:56.100 too, so we are mainly focus on what we're doing at that point, 138 00:08:56.460 --> 00:09:00.179 with a few other kind of fun projects on the side. The transition period 139 00:09:00.179 --> 00:09:03.259 is definitely I would say, communication is what will make or break that in 140 00:09:03.379 --> 00:09:09.299 terms of transferring into different teams within the rotational program and then the permanent placement 141 00:09:09.340 --> 00:09:11.450 position afterwards, which we're about to go find out for ourselves. If we 142 00:09:11.529 --> 00:09:16.929 think about rotations as similar to medical rotations, where you pick one scale up 143 00:09:16.929 --> 00:09:20.289 and then you pick another one up and along the way you're deciding, Hey, 144 00:09:20.330 --> 00:09:24.250 I'm actually really good at this or I'm okay this, but this component 145 00:09:24.289 --> 00:09:26.200 of it I'd really like to apply to my next role. If you continue 146 00:09:26.240 --> 00:09:28.240 doing that long enough, by the time you get to where I'm at, 147 00:09:28.279 --> 00:09:33.519 where I'm a couple months away from actually having that permanent placement, I have 148 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:35.679 a really clear understanding of what direction I want my career to go in, 149 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:39.029 and that's all because of how we split this time. Six months is a 150 00:09:39.070 --> 00:09:43.070 long time for me to kind of understand something about a team. It helps 151 00:09:43.149 --> 00:09:45.830 me kind of get through the honeymoon phase of it helps me get rid of 152 00:09:45.870 --> 00:09:48.509 the butterflies, helps me getting confidence in that scale and apply it forward as 153 00:09:48.549 --> 00:09:50.830 I choose. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, man. So 154 00:09:50.990 --> 00:09:54.019 some of the advice that I heard I just want to pull out for listeners 155 00:09:54.059 --> 00:09:56.580 a little bit. You know, you mentioned if you're doing this sort of 156 00:09:56.620 --> 00:10:03.100 rotational program giving the rotators quote unquote, as you call them, some sort 157 00:10:03.139 --> 00:10:05.379 of homebase for you guys. That's demand ops, which you know, as 158 00:10:05.419 --> 00:10:09.649 you mentioned, has a lot of tactical advantages to it. And then, 159 00:10:09.850 --> 00:10:13.169 you know, as they first start to rotate and go out to other departments 160 00:10:13.370 --> 00:10:18.529 and work on some of their initial projects, maybe kind of let them test 161 00:10:18.570 --> 00:10:22.120 the waters and see where, just where the opportunities are and don't be afraid 162 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:26.360 of always following the same systematic approach of you know, they spend six months 163 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:28.799 in product marketing next and they have to go here next. There can be 164 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:35.200 some flux there and I like your correlation to the way that medical programs work 165 00:10:35.200 --> 00:10:37.590 with with rotational programs there as well. I think that's a good picture for 166 00:10:37.710 --> 00:10:41.789 folks to have in their mind. So we talked about one of the benefits 167 00:10:41.830 --> 00:10:46.149 you you mentioned about bridging the gap between teams and and bringing a demand generation 168 00:10:46.389 --> 00:10:50.940 perspective to product marketing, or vice versa, those sorts of things. One 169 00:10:52.019 --> 00:10:54.899 of the other things that you guys have seen that's probably a benefit to you 170 00:10:54.980 --> 00:10:58.179 as a marketer as well as to the organization, is that cultivation of empathy, 171 00:10:58.460 --> 00:11:03.740 not just bringing a mindset of one function to the other, but actually 172 00:11:03.740 --> 00:11:07.370 having empathy that can help with cross functional relationships. Right, absolutely. And 173 00:11:07.649 --> 00:11:11.129 if we start talking about empathy, I do need to give a hat to 174 00:11:11.330 --> 00:11:13.610 to Gredep Dylan, who, and Michael Brenner, to be honest you know, 175 00:11:13.730 --> 00:11:16.570 the two guys leading the charge in terms of empathy in the workplace. 176 00:11:16.610 --> 00:11:20.759 I think I'm very lucky to work very closely with your deep in my current 177 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:22.679 rotation, but I bear amiss if I didn't give him a hat tip for 178 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:26.960 instilling this in me, and that's that's kind of part of it, right, 179 00:11:26.480 --> 00:11:31.399 as a rotator, whether you realize it or not, despite being at 180 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.070 the entry level, despite being a specialist, you do create relationships across the 181 00:11:35.149 --> 00:11:39.230 organization in a way that other people don't. I think it's something really important 182 00:11:39.230 --> 00:11:45.669 to keep in mind. rotators are culture drivers. They understand the working relationship 183 00:11:45.789 --> 00:11:50.700 of and the interpersonal relationship of their colleagues in a very different way than someone 184 00:11:50.740 --> 00:11:54.419 who has a fixed role, and I think that that's a huge, huge 185 00:11:54.500 --> 00:11:58.379 benefit. If you have rotators in they can help you cultivate the culture that 186 00:11:58.460 --> 00:12:01.929 you want to make, empathy being something that we really preach here at Adobe 187 00:12:03.009 --> 00:12:07.250 and something that we exude in at least try to exude every single thing that 188 00:12:07.330 --> 00:12:13.250 we touch, whether it's empathy or fun or enthusiasm, of positivity. Bringing 189 00:12:13.289 --> 00:12:16.960 in rotators having, you know, that experience where they get to meet everyone 190 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:20.960 and see everyone work and understand what gets people stress and will get certain organization 191 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:26.840 stress. What do certain organizations care about? Having that empathy carried across their 192 00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:31.029 rotations is wildly helpful and we have seen the downstream effects of that here. 193 00:12:31.710 --> 00:12:35.429 Without absolutely man I mean I think you're speaking to benefits to both the organization 194 00:12:35.830 --> 00:12:39.350 and the individual, because, you know, I think in sales and marketing 195 00:12:39.509 --> 00:12:45.899 today one of the biggest drivers of your professional success is going to be your 196 00:12:46.019 --> 00:12:48.419 cultivation of empathy as a person. You know, as a marketer, it 197 00:12:48.539 --> 00:12:54.980 helps us communicate better and right better copying and develop better campaigns with our customer 198 00:12:54.379 --> 00:12:58.460 in mind, and not just in mind, not just these buyer personas that 199 00:12:58.500 --> 00:13:01.730 we all do, but actually have empathy for for other human beings, and 200 00:13:01.809 --> 00:13:07.330 then for the organization, developing empathy across cross functions as well as, as 201 00:13:07.370 --> 00:13:09.929 you mentioned, kind of being these, you know, silent culture drivers. 202 00:13:09.970 --> 00:13:15.159 It's it sounds almost like, oh, you're on a covert mission to instill 203 00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:18.879 integrity across every function, but not so much like that, but because there's 204 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:22.320 that exposure they have. I mean there's no better word for it, exposure 205 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:26.759 two different teams to see what's going on, where some of the pitfalls, 206 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:30.470 where are some ways that we can drive the things that we want to in 207 00:13:30.629 --> 00:13:35.309 our culture, because the cultures who become toxic in the and unsuccessful are the 208 00:13:35.389 --> 00:13:37.909 ones that aren't intentional. So kind of a side benefit of having this sort 209 00:13:37.909 --> 00:13:41.940 of rotational program in your marketing, at least from what I'm hearing pat is, 210 00:13:43.299 --> 00:13:46.899 can be a cultural benefit too. Oh, absolutely, and not to 211 00:13:46.019 --> 00:13:50.139 mention who's to say that your program just stops at marketing? We have rotators 212 00:13:50.179 --> 00:13:54.820 that are in sales enablement, we have rotators that are working on executive experiences 213 00:13:54.860 --> 00:13:58.929 and events like that. I sold sponsorships to Adobe Summit last year. It's 214 00:13:58.009 --> 00:14:01.889 really what you want to make it. How holistic do you want your young 215 00:14:01.049 --> 00:14:05.049 talent to be in terms of business knowledge, so when they do end up 216 00:14:05.090 --> 00:14:11.759 plugging into a permanent role they have so much business acumen about your entire operation? 217 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:16.000 That's been wildly helpful for us. It really is what you want to 218 00:14:16.039 --> 00:14:18.759 make it in terms of what makes sense for your organization. Obviously, with 219 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.000 smaller organizations, you know, if you're not a Marquetto or an adobe or 220 00:14:22.039 --> 00:14:28.110 a Magenta or anybody like that, you might want a rotator to bounce between 221 00:14:28.870 --> 00:14:33.909 even operations. You know, sales ops, accounting like it's totally up to 222 00:14:33.990 --> 00:14:37.509 you. At least in my perspective and from everyone that's been in the rotation 223 00:14:37.590 --> 00:14:41.700 program there's a lot of fire and hunger for that knowledge as quickly as we 224 00:14:41.740 --> 00:14:46.620 can possibly get it. We see this type of program as a huge benefit 225 00:14:46.659 --> 00:14:48.139 to us because we get to say no, I know how this, this, 226 00:14:48.460 --> 00:14:54.370 this, this and probably seventeen other things about the business work. It 227 00:14:54.610 --> 00:14:58.330 really helps me just being personally. It helps me grow fonder of my company 228 00:14:58.370 --> 00:15:01.850 every day. It makes me want to work harder, makes me want to 229 00:15:01.850 --> 00:15:05.289 learn more about it. It really is a two way street. Everybody. 230 00:15:05.490 --> 00:15:09.639 We had to take just a minute today to tell you about our good friend 231 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:13.360 Donald Kelly. If you're not aware, he's the host of the sales evangelist 232 00:15:13.399 --> 00:15:18.720 podcast and for over one two hundred episodes he's been interviewing the world's best sales 233 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:24.470 experts, sellers, sales leaders and entrepreneurs who share their strategies to succeed in 234 00:15:24.750 --> 00:15:28.590 sales. One of my favorite episodes on his podcast is episode four. Look 235 00:15:28.629 --> 00:15:33.990 for impossible to inevitable in the headline. If you're not yet subscribed, just 236 00:15:33.110 --> 00:15:37.500 search sales evangelists. Wherever you do, you're listening. All right, let's 237 00:15:37.500 --> 00:15:41.700 get back to the show. So there are two other benefits. I wanted 238 00:15:41.740 --> 00:15:46.340 to make sure we got time for one. I think we'll hold to the 239 00:15:46.379 --> 00:15:48.700 end. But you mentioned one that really you kind of alluded to right there, 240 00:15:48.820 --> 00:15:54.929 and that is as a rotational program member or rotator, you can kind 241 00:15:54.970 --> 00:15:58.809 of have a different perspective, not only on different teams and their different roles 242 00:15:58.850 --> 00:16:03.090 and their perspective, but a unique perspective on the bigger picture issues as well 243 00:16:03.129 --> 00:16:07.759 as the initiatives. Okay, how are things? You get to see those 244 00:16:07.799 --> 00:16:11.240 common threads of okay, this is the big initiative that our CEO announcer. 245 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.039 This is the you know, our big company Wide Okrs, and I'm seeing 246 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:18.149 how different things are tying to that. And so, as you mentioned, 247 00:16:18.549 --> 00:16:23.230 you another culture driver is getting people who are more engaged in the mission and 248 00:16:23.309 --> 00:16:26.750 vision of the organization. Right, absolutely, and I think a big piece 249 00:16:26.789 --> 00:16:32.629 of making bad successful is understanding where you're going to actually house the rotational program 250 00:16:32.750 --> 00:16:36.779 within your organization. Since ours is in demand operations. The head of that 251 00:16:37.179 --> 00:16:44.379 function is on the marketing leadership team for our actual digital experience marketing team, 252 00:16:44.700 --> 00:16:48.049 so she is a very high level view and because of that we get to 253 00:16:48.090 --> 00:16:51.730 see a lot of that stuff as well. Yeah, I think that that's 254 00:16:51.769 --> 00:16:55.570 a huge benefit and you know, I keep going back to the benefits for 255 00:16:55.730 --> 00:17:00.210 the for the employee, for the rotator. Understanding what's important to the business 256 00:17:00.250 --> 00:17:03.960 at a very early stage in your career could not be more helpful to keeping 257 00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:07.960 what we kind of called the general manager mindset. It's been wildly beneficial for 258 00:17:08.039 --> 00:17:11.400 all of us going through the program to be able to say no, these 259 00:17:11.440 --> 00:17:17.190 are probably the things that matter, because we see how demand operations, in 260 00:17:17.269 --> 00:17:21.430 our case, is responding to these things. We understand if, if we 261 00:17:21.549 --> 00:17:23.990 are the employees within that organization and only twenty five percent of our time is 262 00:17:25.109 --> 00:17:26.910 going to be devoted to those tasks, they're going to be tasks that need 263 00:17:26.990 --> 00:17:30.900 to get done. We get to ask why. We get to kind of 264 00:17:30.980 --> 00:17:33.980 see where fits in, where our peace makes that puzzle a little bit clear 265 00:17:34.299 --> 00:17:40.140 and again, huge benefit for us huge benefits it for morale for us and 266 00:17:40.420 --> 00:17:45.569 obviously, I keep saying, obviously like we're incredible. Hopefully we're doing our 267 00:17:45.650 --> 00:17:48.170 part for the business. Yeah, absolutely, Man. I mean, you 268 00:17:48.250 --> 00:17:52.890 know, you can hear in the words that you choose your passion for the 269 00:17:52.009 --> 00:17:56.049 way this, this has worked, which I think, as you mentioned, 270 00:17:56.089 --> 00:18:00.039 applies to any sort of organization in in some former fashion that they might choose 271 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:03.079 to roll it out. I mean I was thinking about, you know, 272 00:18:03.200 --> 00:18:07.680 a smaller team like ours here at Sweet Fish, were a scaling startup that 273 00:18:07.960 --> 00:18:10.880 is not the size of an adobe, and I was thinking exactly what you 274 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:14.670 recommended. You might even go broader, because you know it's not as far 275 00:18:14.869 --> 00:18:18.710 to go to go over to finance or operations or customer success in a smaller 276 00:18:18.789 --> 00:18:22.589 team and you could kind of do this on a mini scale as well. 277 00:18:22.630 --> 00:18:26.109 I don't think you have to be in multiple countries and have thousands of employees 278 00:18:26.420 --> 00:18:30.619 in order to make something like this work. Just to go back to something 279 00:18:30.660 --> 00:18:33.900 that you mentioned earlier, so to round it out today, pat so we 280 00:18:33.980 --> 00:18:37.900 talked about bringing the gap across teams. We talked about developing empathy and all 281 00:18:37.980 --> 00:18:42.009 those sorts of benefits that that you can have there, as well as getting 282 00:18:42.049 --> 00:18:48.210 people who are bought into the mission and vision because they have a unique perspective 283 00:18:48.410 --> 00:18:52.970 on different aspects of carrying out the execution of the overall company initiatives. The 284 00:18:53.130 --> 00:18:56.759 fourth thing that I know we wanted to touch on a little bit is what 285 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:02.759 you call band aid fixes for quick ass if you have these sorts of rotational 286 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:07.599 members of the team that can just drive efficiency in different areas of marketing or 287 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:11.109 whatever functional role they're touching right yeah, no doubt in some of that comes 288 00:19:11.150 --> 00:19:17.670 from standardizing a few processes for rotators. Like I mentioned earlier, everyone needs 289 00:19:17.710 --> 00:19:21.309 to get marquetto certified. That's just something that we needed in our back pocket, 290 00:19:21.829 --> 00:19:25.539 regardless of what team we're on. I don't sit directly in demand generation 291 00:19:25.619 --> 00:19:29.539 right now, but I'm in Marquetto at least three or four times a week 292 00:19:29.579 --> 00:19:33.019 doing something, whether that's for demand operations, whether it's an internal newsletter or 293 00:19:33.059 --> 00:19:37.259 anything like that, or whether it's actually driving forward a few things that sit 294 00:19:37.380 --> 00:19:41.410 within the commercial demand operations team. That's one example. It's one very tactical 295 00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:48.089 example, but it's great having people who have this generalized skill set and I 296 00:19:48.250 --> 00:19:52.200 know we talked about books in the past. Range by David Epstein, pretty 297 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:56.920 recent book that just came out, but incredible. It kind of it praises 298 00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:00.039 generalists in a very specialized world and I I think regardless of whether you are 299 00:20:00.079 --> 00:20:04.119 one or not, having one around you is really helpful, and rotational programs 300 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:11.750 really help generalists surface. I would say it doesn't build generalist. It helped 301 00:20:11.829 --> 00:20:15.789 generalist surface by giving us the opportunity to say hey, see if you like 302 00:20:15.990 --> 00:20:18.029 this, see if you want to go deep in this. If not, 303 00:20:18.589 --> 00:20:22.019 that's great, we have this tool that you can carry and when you need 304 00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:25.539 this later you'll be glad you did. In a you know, that's the 305 00:20:25.619 --> 00:20:27.819 band aid, quick ask part. Does that answer the questions? That kind 306 00:20:27.859 --> 00:20:30.859 of where you're at it? Yeah, I was picturing that, you know, 307 00:20:32.059 --> 00:20:34.730 just being able to you know, be in a different department and not 308 00:20:34.970 --> 00:20:38.529 having to call in demand generation for something because, you know, Mar Quetto 309 00:20:38.569 --> 00:20:42.089 or or something like that. But I love the the even bigger point that 310 00:20:42.210 --> 00:20:48.170 you made their pat that having this sort of program brings the light to your 311 00:20:48.250 --> 00:20:52.359 generalist because they do have a lot of strengths to offer your organization in it. 312 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:56.599 So it can help them rise to the surface at the same time you're 313 00:20:56.720 --> 00:21:02.440 developing specialist that have at least a working knowledge of different areas. So they've 314 00:21:02.440 --> 00:21:04.430 got a generalist base. But, like you said, if they go through 315 00:21:04.430 --> 00:21:07.630 this rotational program and then you go to you know, kind of like going 316 00:21:07.710 --> 00:21:11.910 back to the medical analogy. Okay, now you want to be a brain 317 00:21:11.029 --> 00:21:14.349 surgeon or, you know, now you want to be a product marketer. 318 00:21:14.670 --> 00:21:18.109 We could get into a whole other episode comparing product marketing to brain surgery, 319 00:21:18.190 --> 00:21:22.380 but I want digress there. But I think it's interesting that this sort of 320 00:21:22.420 --> 00:21:26.900 program can help you develop your generalists and also develop your specialist at the same 321 00:21:26.900 --> 00:21:30.099 time. So I think that, combined with some of the other benefits that 322 00:21:30.180 --> 00:21:33.809 we talked about today, can be really helpful for folks to think about how 323 00:21:33.930 --> 00:21:38.849 they could enact or deploy some sort of program similar to this, whether they're 324 00:21:38.890 --> 00:21:42.970 at the size of adobe or there are smaller scaling startup pat this has been 325 00:21:44.170 --> 00:21:48.079 a fantastic conversation with you, man, as every conversation has been. I'm 326 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:51.440 just glad we got to record this one. If anybody listening to this is 327 00:21:51.519 --> 00:21:53.880 like me and has become a fast fan of yours and would like to stay 328 00:21:53.880 --> 00:21:59.359 connected, or maybe ask some questions of you specific to the rotational program. 329 00:21:59.440 --> 00:22:03.509 If they're thinking now about trying to develop something with their own organization, Shin, 330 00:22:03.589 --> 00:22:06.069 what would be the best way for them to either reach out or stay 331 00:22:06.109 --> 00:22:08.750 connected with you? Man, absolutely linkedin's going to be the best beats. 332 00:22:10.029 --> 00:22:15.059 It's just going to be linkedincom in, Pat Johnson, Denver. Please feel 333 00:22:15.099 --> 00:22:18.779 free to reach out. I can connect you with the founder of the program 334 00:22:18.859 --> 00:22:22.940 if you're interested. I feel like I am just a visual auntie forgetting more 335 00:22:22.940 --> 00:22:26.180 opportunities like this out there for recent college grads. So give me up with 336 00:22:26.180 --> 00:22:29.579 any questions. Love and I really appreciate him and absolutely pat, thanks so 337 00:22:29.660 --> 00:22:33.970 much for being on the show today. Hey there, this is James Carberry, 338 00:22:34.009 --> 00:22:37.690 founder of sweet fish media and one of the cohosts of this show. 339 00:22:37.250 --> 00:22:41.130 The last year and a half I've been working on my very first book. 340 00:22:41.730 --> 00:22:45.519 In the book, I share the three part framework we used as the foundation 341 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.119 for our growth here sweet fish. Now there are lots of companies that ever 342 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:52.720 yased a bunch of money and have grown insanely fast, and we featured a 343 00:22:52.759 --> 00:22:56.319 lot of them here on the show. We've decided to bootstrap our business, 344 00:22:56.519 --> 00:23:00.230 which usually equates to pretty slow growth, but using the strategy outlined in the 345 00:23:00.269 --> 00:23:04.309 book, we're on pace to be one of inks fastest growing companies in two 346 00:23:04.349 --> 00:23:08.230 thousand and twenty. The book is called content based networking, how to instantly 347 00:23:08.390 --> 00:23:11.789 connect with anyone you want to know. If you're a fan of audiobooks, 348 00:23:11.829 --> 00:23:15.660 like me, you can find the book on audible or be like physical books. 349 00:23:15.660 --> 00:23:18.660 You can also find it on Amazon. Just search content based networking or 350 00:23:18.779 --> 00:23:25.059 James Carberry, car be a ARY, in audible or Amazon and it should 351 00:23:25.099 --> 00:23:25.700 pop right up.