Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.910 --> 00:00:12.349 Before we get into today's episode, we wanted to let you know about another 2 00:00:12.390 --> 00:00:16.269 podcast you may want to check out, the sales podcast with West Shaffer. 3 00:00:16.589 --> 00:00:21.539 West, who's known as the sales whisper, helps salespeople everywhere generate more in 4 00:00:21.739 --> 00:00:26.379 bound sales that close faster, easier, at higher margins, with less dress 5 00:00:26.539 --> 00:00:30.739 and more fun. Our favorite episode on his show is titled Why you need 6 00:00:30.780 --> 00:00:35.579 to build for the next procession. Check it out and find the sales podcast 7 00:00:35.619 --> 00:00:39.009 wherever you do your podcast listening. All right, let's get into the show. 8 00:00:42.210 --> 00:00:45.130 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish 9 00:00:45.210 --> 00:00:49.170 media. I'm here today with Karen Bell and Tony. She's a growth strategist 10 00:00:49.250 --> 00:00:53.240 and executive coach and the host of the crazy busy podcast. Karen, welcome 11 00:00:53.240 --> 00:00:56.679 to the show today. Hello, Logan. How are you? I am 12 00:00:56.759 --> 00:01:00.200 doing fantastic. Thank you so much for joining me. I'm excited to have 13 00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:02.960 you on the show. We're going to be talking about how often, as 14 00:01:03.000 --> 00:01:06.950 leaders, we don't realize that our team is operating out of fear and what 15 00:01:07.189 --> 00:01:11.150 to do about that. Before we get into the strategies and tactics you're going 16 00:01:11.150 --> 00:01:14.310 to share today, Karen give listeners a little bit of context for folks who 17 00:01:14.310 --> 00:01:15.989 aren't familiar with you. What are you up to these days? What's a 18 00:01:17.030 --> 00:01:21.299 little bit about your background to share for context? Sounds good. I am 19 00:01:21.340 --> 00:01:26.459 a growth strategist and an executive coach. I also have a podcast called crazy 20 00:01:26.540 --> 00:01:30.219 busy, which is sort of my favorite topic right now, the crazy busy 21 00:01:30.340 --> 00:01:37.689 crisis that we're in, and for many years I've been helping companies grow from 22 00:01:37.730 --> 00:01:44.689 the inside out through their human development right. So there are people who come 23 00:01:44.730 --> 00:01:49.359 in and work with your marketing and your finances and I kind of work with 24 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:55.120 people. I think training is for puppies and people need to be developed, 25 00:01:55.400 --> 00:02:00.159 and some of the work I've been lucky enough to do are with really edgy 26 00:02:00.670 --> 00:02:08.629 and early adopter type executives who realize there is no separation anymore between, especially 27 00:02:08.710 --> 00:02:15.229 for millennials, which are the first generation of people to have no separation between 28 00:02:15.270 --> 00:02:19.259 who they are as humans and their work. They're waking up with their phones 29 00:02:19.300 --> 00:02:23.939 right next to them, and so that we need to put those boundaries back 30 00:02:23.979 --> 00:02:28.580 in place and help them with some of the best practices that have always worked 31 00:02:28.620 --> 00:02:34.569 before, as well as some new technology for understanding who they are and why 32 00:02:34.810 --> 00:02:38.250 we need a little more separation between who we are as people and how we 33 00:02:38.449 --> 00:02:43.689 work in order to optimize all of it. Absolutely. So that's going to 34 00:02:43.729 --> 00:02:49.319 be one of the key topics for today's conversation, is optimization, moving your 35 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:54.439 team away from fear responses and operating and making decisions out of fear and negative 36 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:59.789 emotions and moving them into a place where they can operate out of their executive 37 00:02:59.789 --> 00:03:01.710 function. I think we're going to unpack that term if it's a new one 38 00:03:01.870 --> 00:03:06.789 to some listeners. Let's start before we get into some of the tactics, 39 00:03:06.909 --> 00:03:09.389 care and and talk about what is this problem? Why is fear such a 40 00:03:09.469 --> 00:03:14.300 big issue for you when you talk to leaders in how they're developing, not 41 00:03:14.500 --> 00:03:17.259 training. I love that analogy. There and that, and that the lineation. 42 00:03:17.900 --> 00:03:22.139 Why is this an issue for leaders in their teams? Well, it's 43 00:03:22.180 --> 00:03:27.370 funny because last week I was talking to a senior executive who's got a big, 44 00:03:28.090 --> 00:03:35.409 hyper focus, fast paced marketing division of a company and he said kind 45 00:03:35.449 --> 00:03:38.370 of frustrated to me, why do we need to teach adults how to communicate 46 00:03:38.530 --> 00:03:44.639 with one another? And I don't think we've ever had four generations of people 47 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:51.120 in the workforce together. They all have different styles, modalities and ways they 48 00:03:51.439 --> 00:03:57.909 present best and I think for millennials in particular, who I've been coaching for 49 00:03:57.990 --> 00:04:02.189 the past five years, I find that, you know, they're just isn't 50 00:04:02.389 --> 00:04:14.699 a safe way for them to communicate how they feel without risking too much personal 51 00:04:14.819 --> 00:04:17.819 information. So they really don't know where the lines are and where the boundaries 52 00:04:17.860 --> 00:04:24.610 are, and so straddling that can sometimes trigger them into the part of the 53 00:04:24.730 --> 00:04:28.529 brain known as the Amygdala. So it's not a conscious thing. It's not 54 00:04:28.649 --> 00:04:33.129 like people are walking around going we're in a culture of fear or you know, 55 00:04:33.250 --> 00:04:38.050 there's a lot of fear at our company where people are mean. So 56 00:04:38.209 --> 00:04:44.240 there's fear. It's an unconscious response out of the executive function, which is, 57 00:04:44.279 --> 00:04:46.959 you say, will unpack and into this back part of the brain called 58 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:50.759 the and make dealt the fight or flight response is most people commonly know it. 59 00:04:51.480 --> 00:04:55.269 Yeah, absolutely. I love that you alluded to that, because we're 60 00:04:55.310 --> 00:04:58.629 going to be talking about how can you identify when your team is operating out 61 00:04:58.629 --> 00:05:01.709 of fear, because it can come in really four distinct ways. Before we 62 00:05:01.750 --> 00:05:04.269 do that, though, as we were talking about, Karen, let's unpack 63 00:05:04.350 --> 00:05:08.220 this idea of, you know, moving from the back of the brain to 64 00:05:08.259 --> 00:05:12.660 the front of the brain, helping your team operate out of their executive function. 65 00:05:12.899 --> 00:05:15.100 Tell us a little bit about this term and unpack it for folks to 66 00:05:15.620 --> 00:05:19.500 which you know this might be someone of a new term. Sure so. 67 00:05:19.819 --> 00:05:25.769 Some some people are familiar with this term because they have children who've gotten stuck 68 00:05:25.810 --> 00:05:32.810 at school where they there get a diagnosis or a label of adhd add or 69 00:05:32.850 --> 00:05:39.360 Dyslexia, meaning they are not able to stay in the front part of the 70 00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:46.079 brain, the prefrontal Cortex, they are not using or optimizing their executive function. 71 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:48.600 Other people have just heard it thrown around, but what it really means, 72 00:05:49.269 --> 00:05:53.230 in the way I look at it, as we have three brains and 73 00:05:53.509 --> 00:05:58.069 we've grown these brains over time and our evolution. This is a very simplistic 74 00:05:58.149 --> 00:06:02.629 way to explain it, because I'm neither a neuroscientist nor an evolutionary expert. 75 00:06:03.110 --> 00:06:08.939 But the first part of the brain, people call the Lizard Brain or the 76 00:06:09.060 --> 00:06:14.300 monkey brain, is really there for one purpose. It's not there for pleasure, 77 00:06:14.819 --> 00:06:18.490 it's not there for learning, it's not there for going to shows, 78 00:06:19.089 --> 00:06:25.850 it's not there for multitasking. It's there to tell us that we're safe or 79 00:06:25.930 --> 00:06:29.889 we're not safe. We either need to send cortis all to our gut so 80 00:06:30.009 --> 00:06:32.759 we can run as fast as we can or, you know, we're okay 81 00:06:32.879 --> 00:06:38.319 and we're safe and we can be present. So that part of our brain 82 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:43.079 is a place we lived for much of our evolution. In fact, I 83 00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:47.829 say this sadly. You know, until about forty years ago, and still 84 00:06:47.870 --> 00:06:51.790 true in many parts of the world, women weren't safe without a man, 85 00:06:53.670 --> 00:06:59.149 you know, just walking down the street or in life, choosing maybe not 86 00:06:59.430 --> 00:07:03.259 to be coupled up. They were labeled, made fun of or threatened physically. 87 00:07:04.060 --> 00:07:08.939 So we've spent a lot of time in our evolution just living in that 88 00:07:09.100 --> 00:07:15.660 part of the brain. It's not unlikely to think that we're easily triggered, 89 00:07:15.699 --> 00:07:18.850 especially with the lack of space, which I'll talk about in a minute, 90 00:07:19.370 --> 00:07:26.410 in our lives. So the second part of the brain is the emotional brain, 91 00:07:26.449 --> 00:07:30.639 or the limbic brain. This is sort of the part that grew over 92 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:35.720 and is present in cats, dogs, horses, you know, animals that 93 00:07:35.759 --> 00:07:41.160 are commonly our pets, because they have an emotional component. And neither of 94 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:45.029 these places are where you want to sit at work right. You don't want 95 00:07:45.029 --> 00:07:48.350 to be crying in a meeting and you don't want to be running from the 96 00:07:48.750 --> 00:07:54.110 conference room because someone asks you a question you can answer. You want to 97 00:07:54.230 --> 00:07:59.779 be calm and sitting in the front part of your brain called the prefrontal Cortex, 98 00:07:59.939 --> 00:08:03.860 and that is where the executive function sits. The executive function allows US 99 00:08:03.899 --> 00:08:09.339 humans, which is how we have evolved as fantastically as we have. I've 100 00:08:09.339 --> 00:08:13.649 been looking out my window here in New York City the buildings and the planes 101 00:08:13.810 --> 00:08:18.290 and the technology, and it's mind blowing. You know, we've been able 102 00:08:18.329 --> 00:08:22.050 to do that. Cats and dogs can't. Why we have this other part 103 00:08:22.089 --> 00:08:26.449 of the brain, and so this part of the brain allows us to make 104 00:08:26.529 --> 00:08:31.480 decisions and allows US discernment. It is where we're creative and we collaborate. 105 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:37.320 It's how we can plan well, and so it's why it's a trigger for 106 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:43.870 developmental experts when children aren't able to use these these attributes very well. So 107 00:08:45.110 --> 00:08:52.029 in our society, where we have lost the ability to create space, space 108 00:08:52.149 --> 00:08:56.820 between who we are as people and who we are at work, where meetings 109 00:08:56.860 --> 00:09:01.899 are stacked one after the other, after the other after the other, I 110 00:09:01.179 --> 00:09:07.740 like to say where we have no space, we have a terrible pace and 111 00:09:07.899 --> 00:09:16.929 that equals no grace. So they love that. Yeah, it's really unbelievable 112 00:09:16.970 --> 00:09:18.730 when I think back to like going to work in one thousand nine hundred and 113 00:09:18.730 --> 00:09:26.360 ninety and I had these really big closets with lots of clothes and I had 114 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:30.080 a wall of clothes that were maybe for going to the club and I had 115 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:35.480 some clothes that were for going to really nice functions and weddings and black tie 116 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:39.070 events, and I had a wall of clothes that I went to work in 117 00:09:39.230 --> 00:09:43.909 and there were suits and matching shoes and and you know, it was sort 118 00:09:43.950 --> 00:09:48.870 of a uniform and when you put on your work clothes and you left your 119 00:09:48.990 --> 00:09:52.620 house, you were in work mode yet, but when you swung the door 120 00:09:52.659 --> 00:09:56.899 open to your building, you shift it into a different part of the brain. 121 00:09:58.019 --> 00:10:01.659 It was really profouund to have that space. We nobody called you on 122 00:10:01.779 --> 00:10:05.580 your home phone at nine o'clock at night or ten o'clock at night, and 123 00:10:07.409 --> 00:10:11.289 before computers, we had in and out boxes. So work would come in 124 00:10:11.330 --> 00:10:16.250 once a day, maybe twice. It would go out once a day. 125 00:10:16.250 --> 00:10:22.200 Now it's just coming in and going out constantly. So we have no space. 126 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:26.039 We have a bad pace, phrenetic pace, and are losing our grace. 127 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:30.759 Yeah, absolutely. That's such a great breakdown and again, you know, 128 00:10:31.000 --> 00:10:33.279 just like you, I'm no neuroscientist, but I think that was a 129 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:39.629 really sequential breakdown of the parts of our brain. Let's jump into, especially 130 00:10:39.710 --> 00:10:43.269 for leaders, these tactics of helping people get to that operating out of the 131 00:10:43.389 --> 00:10:48.750 executive function, as you mentioned earlier, it starts by being able to identify 132 00:10:48.990 --> 00:10:52.580 when they're operating out of fear, which comes in in four different kind of 133 00:10:52.940 --> 00:10:58.259 unique situations that you can identify. Talk US through those four, how to 134 00:10:58.340 --> 00:11:01.419 identify them, and then we'll come back Karen in what do you do in 135 00:11:01.500 --> 00:11:03.529 each of those four situations? Hey, cool. I call them the fear 136 00:11:03.610 --> 00:11:09.769 responses, the for fear responses, because I started to see them in the 137 00:11:09.889 --> 00:11:15.370 coaching I was doing and I would have somebody tell me, you know, 138 00:11:15.409 --> 00:11:20.720 the zoom screen would open and there'd be a young woman hysterical telling me about 139 00:11:20.720 --> 00:11:26.000 this awful boss that she had and how mean she was, and and then 140 00:11:26.039 --> 00:11:28.240 I would, you know, see the zoom screen open the next day and 141 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:33.110 it was the boss and she seemed pretty nice to me, you know. 142 00:11:33.269 --> 00:11:37.269 So that's the other thing. You know, my fear responses are going to 143 00:11:37.350 --> 00:11:41.549 be different than someone else's and the way I respond to other people when they're 144 00:11:41.590 --> 00:11:46.220 in fear is going to be different than the way you might so you know, 145 00:11:46.340 --> 00:11:50.340 I have a little story to illustrate this, which is that I was 146 00:11:50.379 --> 00:11:56.139 at a big event, to beautiful gala here in New York and it was 147 00:11:56.259 --> 00:12:00.940 weeks and months of prep and it was it was a very fancy party and 148 00:12:01.139 --> 00:12:05.529 lots of celebrities and kind of thing you really look forward to. And when 149 00:12:05.570 --> 00:12:09.090 we got to the event, I was separated from the person I went with 150 00:12:09.970 --> 00:12:16.159 because of these table cards the names weren't right and so my name apparently wasn't 151 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:20.679 on a card and the person who was responsible for doing the cards was sitting 152 00:12:20.759 --> 00:12:24.679 two people away from me. And as I started chatting up the young lady 153 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:28.120 next to me and we were doing the you know, I love your dress, 154 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:31.950 I love your dress routine, I noticed this woman glaring at me and 155 00:12:33.110 --> 00:12:37.110 with fear in her eyes and and, you know, dare I say hatred? 156 00:12:37.110 --> 00:12:41.149 I had never seen her in my life and she said to me, 157 00:12:41.309 --> 00:12:46.700 who are you and I said well, I'm Karen and as any frightened person 158 00:12:46.820 --> 00:12:50.740 would do. I said Hi, I'm Karen, and that's a little intimidating 159 00:12:50.379 --> 00:12:56.379 even for a powerful lady like myself. And so she glared at me and 160 00:12:56.700 --> 00:13:01.330 started shaking her head and said I there's no care in here, there's no 161 00:13:01.490 --> 00:13:03.929 careen here. You don't belong here, and she stood up and yelled. 162 00:13:05.129 --> 00:13:09.970 She was hysterical. Karen doesn't belong here, Karen. And when I tell 163 00:13:09.090 --> 00:13:13.480 this story to a group of male executives, you know, people cover their 164 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:20.720 face because we're all running around with programs that we were dealt before we were 165 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:24.080 eight years old, and then in this horrible invention called middle school, we 166 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:28.230 got us a lot of social programs. And so I don't care who you 167 00:13:28.389 --> 00:13:33.070 are, ninety five percent of you have a program called you don't belong here 168 00:13:33.870 --> 00:13:39.110 that you would react very strongly to. It came from the lunch room seating 169 00:13:39.950 --> 00:13:45.179 in middle school. So so yeah, little lugans going up. I remember 170 00:13:45.299 --> 00:13:50.500 that one. So it was pretty horrifying. I ended up leaning over touching 171 00:13:50.539 --> 00:13:54.860 her very gently on the arm. I could see that she was in fighter 172 00:13:54.940 --> 00:13:58.529 flight fear and she was in the fight response. And so we I said, 173 00:13:58.570 --> 00:14:03.370 why don't we walk over to the table and get your get clear on 174 00:14:03.409 --> 00:14:07.370 the fact that I do sit here and this is my table, and now 175 00:14:07.490 --> 00:14:09.960 my date is run around the table and is saying, you know, you 176 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:13.679 don't need to do this, what's wrong with her? And I said nothing's 177 00:14:13.720 --> 00:14:16.559 wrong, we're all going to go together and we took twenty steps over to 178 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.639 the table and the lady that checked me and said yes, Miss Bellent Tony, 179 00:14:20.759 --> 00:14:26.389 you you're at table three, and she kept shaking her head and she's 180 00:14:26.389 --> 00:14:30.909 very upset and someone had told me later, who was a close friend of 181 00:14:30.990 --> 00:14:35.750 hers, that she'd actually been abducted in the country that she's from and held 182 00:14:35.789 --> 00:14:41.379 against her will for months and she had ignored her intuition at the time of 183 00:14:41.419 --> 00:14:48.940 the abduction and since then she brings place cards to fancy parties and puts name 184 00:14:48.059 --> 00:14:54.809 cards around to control her and vironment and because she actually had made a mistake, 185 00:14:54.769 --> 00:15:00.809 put someone else's name twice and not my name. But what I think 186 00:15:00.850 --> 00:15:05.090 happens every day is that people are reaction. That is a very dramatic story 187 00:15:05.809 --> 00:15:11.240 and we just don't ever know what someone's been through. And since I do 188 00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:16.159 this sort of holistic executive coaching where I get to know who people really are 189 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:18.960 and what their patterns and programs are. I can tell you most people in 190 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:26.950 your company have dramatic stories too, from their childhoods that can be very easily 191 00:15:26.110 --> 00:15:31.470 triggered because they've had no space. They woke up with their testosterone high, 192 00:15:31.990 --> 00:15:37.340 they've looked at their phone and they've engaged and they're never turning off, they're 193 00:15:37.379 --> 00:15:41.980 never resting the brain, and so they're using up the energy they get in 194 00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:48.820 the front of their brain and they're triggering the fear response from exhaustion, from 195 00:15:48.860 --> 00:15:56.250 stress, from frustration, and it opens up old wounds that are really inappropriate 196 00:15:56.730 --> 00:16:00.409 to share at work, and so nobody understands why people behave the way they 197 00:16:00.450 --> 00:16:06.799 do. Hey, everybody, Logan with sweetish here. If you've been listening 198 00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:10.159 to the show for a while, you know we're big proponents of putting out 199 00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:14.960 original, organic content on linked but one thing that's always been a struggle for 200 00:16:15.000 --> 00:16:18.110 a team like ours is to easily track the reach of that linkedin content. 201 00:16:18.429 --> 00:16:22.710 That's why I was really be excited when I heard about shield the other day 202 00:16:22.789 --> 00:16:26.750 from a connection on you guessed it, linked in. Since our team started 203 00:16:26.789 --> 00:16:30.669 using shield, I've loved how it's let us easily track and analyze the performance 204 00:16:30.789 --> 00:16:37.220 of our linkedin content without having to manually log it ourselves. It automatically creates 205 00:16:37.299 --> 00:16:41.340 reports and generates some dashboards that are incredibly useful to see things like what content 206 00:16:41.379 --> 00:16:45.379 has been performing the best and what days of the week are we getting the 207 00:16:45.419 --> 00:16:49.649 most engagement and our average views proposed. I'd highly suggest you guys check out 208 00:16:49.649 --> 00:16:52.730 this tool if you're putting out content on Linkedin, and if you're not, 209 00:16:53.090 --> 00:16:56.090 you should be. It's been a game changer for us. If you go 210 00:16:56.289 --> 00:17:00.440 to shield APP DOT AI and check out the ten day free trial, you 211 00:17:00.519 --> 00:17:04.480 can even use our promo code be to be growth to get a twenty five 212 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:10.880 percent discount. Again, that's shield APP DOT AI and that Promo Code is 213 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:15.240 be the number to be growth. All one word. All right, let's 214 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:21.829 get back to the show. Yeah, so that sort of you know, 215 00:17:21.910 --> 00:17:26.109 you might not see yelling and standing up and screaming to the room, but 216 00:17:26.470 --> 00:17:30.500 that sort of combat of nature, you know as indicative of number one, 217 00:17:30.619 --> 00:17:33.259 that that fight response. You know, I kind of thought we might we 218 00:17:33.299 --> 00:17:34.619 might summarize them all and then come back to what to do, but I 219 00:17:34.700 --> 00:17:37.980 think it might make sense care and just you know it tell us a little 220 00:17:37.980 --> 00:17:42.299 bit about what you did in that situation, what leaders can do either learning 221 00:17:42.299 --> 00:17:47.410 from that situation or common way to deal with that, that fight response, 222 00:17:47.490 --> 00:17:49.650 since we're since we're right here on this one, and that story so fresh 223 00:17:49.769 --> 00:17:53.329 right. Yeah, it's fresh, and you know, I I could pat 224 00:17:53.450 --> 00:17:56.369 myself on the back and say how well I handled that, but the truth 225 00:17:56.410 --> 00:18:00.359 is it was a friend of mine's event and he was up on stage and 226 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:03.920 the last thing I wanted was for him to look in the audience to see 227 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:08.599 a girl fight or a commotion and and maybe started it. So I was, 228 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:12.990 I was really in a very grounded state. I did not allow my 229 00:18:14.269 --> 00:18:18.789 fear response, which in that situation might have been fight. Right, there 230 00:18:18.829 --> 00:18:22.109 could have been a horrible fight at the table wrote a ruined everyone's evening. 231 00:18:22.150 --> 00:18:27.380 I could have run away and avoided and sat with other people or found a 232 00:18:27.460 --> 00:18:33.619 security guard to get her in trouble. Frequently that's what flight people do. 233 00:18:33.380 --> 00:18:37.099 I could have frozen and fear, I could have become a fawner, but 234 00:18:37.180 --> 00:18:45.329 I stayed calm because I realized this woman is in a situation called the fear 235 00:18:45.410 --> 00:18:49.609 response and it obviously is nothing to do with me. So I was able 236 00:18:49.769 --> 00:18:56.000 to diffuse the situation first and then communicate with her. You must diffuse the 237 00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:02.839 heat with fight people. You cannot attempt to be reasonable with someone who's in 238 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:06.440 an emotional state. Yeah, I love that. I've seen that as a 239 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:08.240 parent. Just kind of that. Wait, hold on a second. Do 240 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:12.390 I really think you know that that eight or ten year old who's just so 241 00:19:12.670 --> 00:19:17.470 upset it's just going to listen to my reason because I'm I'm the dead. 242 00:19:17.789 --> 00:19:21.269 No, you've got to use before you can communicate. I love that. 243 00:19:21.349 --> 00:19:25.220 I think that holds true as much for parents as it does for leaders and 244 00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:27.099 the work I scaren, and I hope your wife's listening because she can use 245 00:19:27.140 --> 00:19:30.579 this tactic with you as well. But I mean it works in marriages, 246 00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:37.539 it works kid absolutely. It's a relationship skills. Isn't just about your marketing 247 00:19:37.619 --> 00:19:42.650 director or your creative director having a fit. And very often fight people are 248 00:19:44.170 --> 00:19:48.569 not seen as fear, in fear. No one would assume someone beats their 249 00:19:48.609 --> 00:19:52.769 chest and yells and screens is in fear, but they are. They're scared, 250 00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:55.920 they're afraids, a real billier, Karen. Yes, they're afraid of 251 00:19:56.000 --> 00:19:59.680 failure, they're afraid of looking bad. You know, there's a creative director 252 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:03.799 that I coach who would lose it if the team didn't show up and people 253 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:08.910 just got so afraid of him they'd start failing because they were also afraid of 254 00:20:08.990 --> 00:20:12.670 getting yelled at. Maybe they had a dad who did that and he would 255 00:20:12.670 --> 00:20:15.710 just say to me, I just am so a fair afraid of losing this 256 00:20:15.789 --> 00:20:19.589 account and they're not as committed as I am. And I said, you 257 00:20:19.670 --> 00:20:22.740 know, there's just a breakdown in the way you say it. If, 258 00:20:22.859 --> 00:20:27.019 instead of you yelling, you stopped and said, you guys, I don't 259 00:20:27.059 --> 00:20:30.220 know what to do, I'm really scared and I need your help. Yeah, 260 00:20:30.380 --> 00:20:34.579 you know, that moment of openness could change everything. Yeah, I 261 00:20:34.700 --> 00:20:40.329 love the way your story just unpacks that. Let's talk about that the next 262 00:20:40.410 --> 00:20:42.890 three. So we've got fight and then we've touched a little bit on flight, 263 00:20:44.130 --> 00:20:48.410 freeze and Fawn. Give us some some strategies to identify these next three 264 00:20:48.450 --> 00:20:52.519 as we go through them, Karen, and what folks can do when you 265 00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:56.960 identify them. Yeah, the flight people are seen as highly productive. So 266 00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:03.039 that's because when they're scared, they believe that the path to safety is by 267 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:06.910 getting a lot of thing done, and so they will run back to their 268 00:21:06.990 --> 00:21:11.349 desk, put their head down and check stuff off a list, almost like 269 00:21:11.509 --> 00:21:17.150 camouflage. They don't want to be seen. They will not respond in a 270 00:21:17.230 --> 00:21:22.339 meeting, sometimes because they don't have the answer. So what I've had to 271 00:21:22.420 --> 00:21:27.099 teach flight people is you need to put a communication piece in between running away 272 00:21:29.220 --> 00:21:33.170 and standing there. They're just says, kind of a thinker. You know 273 00:21:33.210 --> 00:21:37.490 I'm a thoughtful person. I want to get back to you, but being 274 00:21:37.569 --> 00:21:42.130 put on the spot is challenging for me right. So these I just had 275 00:21:42.170 --> 00:21:47.480 a coaching session this morning with a gal and I advised her about a flight 276 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:52.039 person, to give him the questions for the meeting before the meeting. Let 277 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:56.400 him prepare, let him think through, because you're going to get the most 278 00:21:56.440 --> 00:22:00.079 out of him that way. He's not an on the spot guy and he's 279 00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:04.190 too afraid of saying or doing the wrong thing. So he'll clam right up 280 00:22:04.750 --> 00:22:11.069 and typically leaf depart, even if he's physically still present. You'll look here 281 00:22:11.589 --> 00:22:15.819 checked out. Yeah, so if you've got someone that you identify, you 282 00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:19.500 know that that flight response. It could be them physically leaving. It could 283 00:22:19.500 --> 00:22:23.579 also just be them mentally or emotionally checking out of the situation. You want 284 00:22:23.579 --> 00:22:29.259 to give them as much advanced notice and preparation so that they don't feel put 285 00:22:29.339 --> 00:22:32.490 on the spot. I think that's that's great. I seen any lady that's 286 00:22:32.609 --> 00:22:37.769 confronted or man about an issue that he's likely guilty of, than he will, 287 00:22:37.809 --> 00:22:42.289 if he's guilty, actually, then he will grab his phone and start 288 00:22:42.329 --> 00:22:47.359 trying to check messages. I've seen it on the subway. I've seen teenagers 289 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:51.960 come on the subway and and be sort of menacing and I've sort of seeing 290 00:22:51.960 --> 00:22:56.039 these guys in suits who know they should kind of speak up or lend some 291 00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:02.710 substance to the situation. They're in fear and they are pretending, YEP, 292 00:23:02.990 --> 00:23:07.910 they're in the wild, to the to the phone as something to distract them. 293 00:23:07.950 --> 00:23:11.710 Yeah, I think that that's really interesting to think about. I think 294 00:23:11.750 --> 00:23:15.859 there are some subtleties here where you can recognize, recognize the difference, give 295 00:23:15.980 --> 00:23:19.819 them opportunity, and ample opportunity, to be able to respond. Number number 296 00:23:19.940 --> 00:23:23.779 three is freeze. How can I assume that this can look a little bit 297 00:23:23.900 --> 00:23:29.130 similar to flight, because flight doesn't always mean physically leaving, and so therefore 298 00:23:29.410 --> 00:23:32.849 tell us a little bit about recognizing the difference between a flight and a frieze 299 00:23:32.890 --> 00:23:36.329 response and what to do about it. You know, it's interesting people who 300 00:23:36.369 --> 00:23:41.000 go into fight sometimes their secondary mode. And what I do in training that 301 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:45.480 I conduct at companies is I give everyone a test so they can see what 302 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:51.079 their primary and secondary is. They can see what they're co workers primary is, 303 00:23:51.200 --> 00:23:55.160 they can see how their boss is and we can start creating common language 304 00:23:55.750 --> 00:23:57.190 so that they're you know, because none of these are right or wrong, 305 00:23:57.390 --> 00:24:06.910 they just are and it's it should be a lot easier to handle someone when 306 00:24:06.910 --> 00:24:11.460 you know where they're coming from rather than guessing and freeze people are the hardest 307 00:24:11.500 --> 00:24:17.460 people to coach. They are almost if you think about a chess game, 308 00:24:18.099 --> 00:24:22.259 they're they're paralyzed like the deer in the headlight right and so you know what 309 00:24:22.380 --> 00:24:26.289 happens to the deer every time they get paralyzed, and so they just can't 310 00:24:26.490 --> 00:24:33.250 move because any move to them is seen as risky, and so they will 311 00:24:33.369 --> 00:24:40.200 complain a lot of times they go silent. They are frequently people that get 312 00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:48.319 lost in video games that work. Add is a strategy for them. multitasking 313 00:24:48.440 --> 00:24:55.549 is a strategy for them. To I should say, yes, multitasking is 314 00:24:55.670 --> 00:25:03.029 a strategy for them to be able to move out of the frieze a little 315 00:25:03.029 --> 00:25:07.500 bit because they're there. That paralyzed and I had a client once who, 316 00:25:07.619 --> 00:25:11.380 just you know, was being abused by her boyfriend and when I made the 317 00:25:11.500 --> 00:25:14.900 suggestion that what would it be like if she asked him to move, she 318 00:25:15.019 --> 00:25:18.579 went down a whole path of decisions she couldn't be sure of. You know, 319 00:25:18.619 --> 00:25:19.940 I need to get a raise so I could stay in my apartment and 320 00:25:21.019 --> 00:25:22.730 I if I couldn't stay in my apartment, I'd only be able to stay 321 00:25:22.730 --> 00:25:26.289 there a year and if I had to move in a year, I don't 322 00:25:26.329 --> 00:25:29.809 have any friends who can help me move. And so she couldn't let go 323 00:25:29.970 --> 00:25:34.009 of an abusive boyfriend because she couldn't see how she'd move out of her apartment 324 00:25:34.089 --> 00:25:40.319 which was six steps away. And so freeze people are typically in jobs they 325 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:45.599 don't like. They're often bullied, sadly, they're often made fun of or 326 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:48.880 talked about behind their back. They're the last people at the office every day 327 00:25:48.920 --> 00:25:52.470 because it's a little safer and easier to get things done when no one's around. 328 00:25:53.029 --> 00:25:56.869 They just literally don't feel safe around people. HMM, yeah, that 329 00:25:56.950 --> 00:26:00.390 makes a lot of sense and I think you've given us some very good clues 330 00:26:00.470 --> 00:26:03.029 to kind of pick up on. What are some things you can do to 331 00:26:03.150 --> 00:26:07.619 enable these folks that have that have that freeze response or tend to, I 332 00:26:07.660 --> 00:26:11.420 don't want to label and put people into buckets, but tend to operate out 333 00:26:11.420 --> 00:26:15.420 of that freeze response? First, most often, give them a small, 334 00:26:15.940 --> 00:26:21.529 small, small baby step, and I mean if someone's in my office and 335 00:26:21.569 --> 00:26:26.650 they get into a frozen state, if they are about to maybe hear some 336 00:26:26.769 --> 00:26:32.650 negative information and go into a frozen state, don't keep piling on. Stop 337 00:26:33.359 --> 00:26:36.640 and get them to try to move their body right. So one of the 338 00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:41.319 things you could say, you can't go. You know, hey, Logan, 339 00:26:41.359 --> 00:26:45.319 let's go step outside and get some fresh air. It's too far. 340 00:26:45.920 --> 00:26:48.589 Yeah, you know, I could say, Hey, let's stand up, 341 00:26:48.470 --> 00:26:52.390 kind of shake her arms for a minute and stand up and loosen up, 342 00:26:52.390 --> 00:26:56.109 get out of the chair, and then I might say why don't we step 343 00:26:56.150 --> 00:27:02.420 over to the sliding door and keep chatting and I'm chatting. Of course they're 344 00:27:02.460 --> 00:27:08.140 frozen. And then I might say let's step out into the common area and 345 00:27:08.299 --> 00:27:12.339 sit on the sofa out there, or let's step out into the common area 346 00:27:12.339 --> 00:27:15.609 and see if we can get a drink of water and then I might be 347 00:27:15.890 --> 00:27:21.930 steps and changing the physical environment can can kind of provide a little bit of 348 00:27:21.970 --> 00:27:26.650 an unlocked because they don't see a way forward and so they're in this this 349 00:27:26.170 --> 00:27:30.960 mental paradigm and sometimes the physical can impact the the mental. I really like 350 00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:36.240 that tip. And as we steps, get them, it's like diffusing the 351 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:38.880 fight person. M Yeah, it's now. Then, when they're out of 352 00:27:40.000 --> 00:27:44.430 that state, you can have a conversation right again. It's kind of a 353 00:27:44.589 --> 00:27:48.309 one two step. You've got to address the emotion before you can you can 354 00:27:48.430 --> 00:27:52.630 have a continue with the logical conversation and then the next steps. All right. 355 00:27:52.710 --> 00:27:53.869 Well, as we wrap it up today, care and tell us about 356 00:27:53.869 --> 00:27:57.430 the fourth one, identifying the fallen response. What to do about it, 357 00:27:57.509 --> 00:28:00.940 as we wrap up this great conversation today. Well, this is this is 358 00:28:00.980 --> 00:28:07.180 a person you might see more than any other at the office and it's the 359 00:28:07.299 --> 00:28:11.180 one people here the least about. So fawners, if you think about, 360 00:28:11.259 --> 00:28:15.970 you know, fawning all over somebody, believe that in order to be safe 361 00:28:15.009 --> 00:28:19.009 in any relationship, they must meet the needs of everyone else but themselves. 362 00:28:19.569 --> 00:28:26.009 So they're pleasers, their codependents, their yes people, and so if a 363 00:28:26.130 --> 00:28:33.640 faunner works for you and is in a position of especially like a coordinator or 364 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:40.079 like a traffic person or a you know, a team member who is responsible 365 00:28:40.359 --> 00:28:45.470 for a lot of admin for different executives or just somebody who has to answer 366 00:28:45.509 --> 00:28:49.910 to a lot of people, and you see them always saying yes, you 367 00:28:51.029 --> 00:28:55.630 need to stop them, because what happens is they keep saying yes, they 368 00:28:55.740 --> 00:29:00.619 flip into the Amygdala and then they don't get anything done because they get overwhelmed 369 00:29:00.660 --> 00:29:06.259 and overburdened and in there's a podcast I did call the price of your perfectionism 370 00:29:07.660 --> 00:29:11.970 on my crazy busy show that has a free download that shows you the cycle 371 00:29:12.289 --> 00:29:17.210 of this type of person and what they go through. And they put themselves 372 00:29:17.250 --> 00:29:22.089 almost into a terrified state where they have this forced flow state to get out 373 00:29:22.130 --> 00:29:25.839 of the situation. But they lose a lot of time and a lot of 374 00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:32.279 productivity worrying in and stressing that they can't get things done and they procrastinate. 375 00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:36.839 So they need to be highly organized. When you give them something and they 376 00:29:36.839 --> 00:29:41.349 say yes, automatically say you know, look at your schedule, make sure 377 00:29:41.509 --> 00:29:45.549 you can say yes. Make sure you don't need to give me a project 378 00:29:45.750 --> 00:29:49.710 back in order to say yes to this, because I know you're busy. 379 00:29:51.390 --> 00:29:53.059 So how can you say yes to this one? I've asked for it by 380 00:29:53.180 --> 00:29:57.500 Friday? Yeah, and are several things there. You're validating their value, 381 00:29:57.539 --> 00:30:02.940 which is addressing some of this. You're giving them the expectation. You know, 382 00:30:02.980 --> 00:30:06.619 I heard a great episode on the Craig Grow Shell podcast recently about you 383 00:30:06.740 --> 00:30:10.490 know, our team members, especially if they're our direct reports, will take 384 00:30:10.529 --> 00:30:14.609 everything as urgent unless we give them the opportunity to say hey, if you 385 00:30:14.650 --> 00:30:17.730 need to say no to this right now, that's okay. I'm not saying 386 00:30:17.730 --> 00:30:19.250 you have to do this, I'm asking you. Can you do yes? 387 00:30:19.609 --> 00:30:22.000 So I want to yes or a no. I don't just want to yes. 388 00:30:22.400 --> 00:30:26.720 And here's kind of my expected, you know, timeframe on this. 389 00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:29.759 This is not a this week project, this is a three month project or 390 00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:32.640 this is, you know, a two week project. One can you do 391 00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:37.789 this and to is that timeline acceptable and making it abundantly clear, especially if 392 00:30:37.829 --> 00:30:41.670 you're in a remote team and you're communicating this over email or slack. There's 393 00:30:41.990 --> 00:30:47.430 different conversation about when should you communicate that facetoface or over a video conference versus 394 00:30:47.509 --> 00:30:49.059 not? But those are some of the things. I'm here and you say 395 00:30:49.059 --> 00:30:53.059 they're Karen. Yes, agreed, and remote teams are a whole other topic 396 00:30:53.099 --> 00:30:56.859 around. Yes, absolutely awesome. Well, Karen, this has been a 397 00:30:56.940 --> 00:31:00.819 great conversation. I think you've given us some great tips to identify these four 398 00:31:00.940 --> 00:31:06.410 different types of fear responses and what to do about them, whether we're leading 399 00:31:06.410 --> 00:31:11.049 a marketing team or any other sort of team or organization. Karen, if 400 00:31:11.089 --> 00:31:15.529 anybody listening to this has enjoyed this conversation as much as I have, what's 401 00:31:15.569 --> 00:31:18.079 the best way for them to reach out to you? Stay connected, find 402 00:31:18.119 --> 00:31:22.359 your podcast take any next step that they'd like to from here? Great. 403 00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:29.279 My podcast is available on Itunes, spotify and just about anywhere you could find 404 00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:33.630 a podcast, including good pods, which is a brand new platform that I 405 00:31:33.670 --> 00:31:37.470 want to give a shout out to. Also, you can find me on 406 00:31:37.589 --> 00:31:41.349 Linkedin. You at Karen Bell and Tony. We can put my info in 407 00:31:41.390 --> 00:31:47.619 the show notes. My website is Karen Bill and tonycom and my email is 408 00:31:47.700 --> 00:31:51.940 Karen at Karen Bell and tonycom. So love it easy enough. Well, 409 00:31:51.940 --> 00:31:53.859 Karen, I appreciate it. I've listened to a few episodes of your show 410 00:31:53.900 --> 00:31:59.740 I like this is synced Solo episode formats where you're sharing some things you know 411 00:31:59.859 --> 00:32:02.690 fresh from your coaching sessions and things like that. So definitely encourage people to 412 00:32:02.730 --> 00:32:06.609 check that out here and this has been a great conversation. Than so much 413 00:32:06.849 --> 00:32:09.250 for joining me on the show today. Have a great day you too. 414 00:32:12.690 --> 00:32:16.079 I hate it when podcasts incessantly ask their listeners for reviews, but I get 415 00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:20.759 why they do it, because reviews are enormously helpful when you're trying to grow 416 00:32:20.759 --> 00:32:23.200 a podcast audience. So here's what we decided to do. If you leave 417 00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:28.039 a review for me to be growth and apple podcasts and email me a screenshot 418 00:32:28.119 --> 00:32:31.029 of the review to James at Sweet Fish Mediacom, I'll send you a signed 419 00:32:31.109 --> 00:32:35.789 copy of my new book, content based networking, how to instantly connect with 420 00:32:35.910 --> 00:32:37.950 anyone you want to know. We get a review, you get a free 421 00:32:37.990 --> 00:32:39.230 book. We both win.
