Transcript
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WE WELCOME BACK TO BE TOB growth. I'm Logan Lyles with street fish media.
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Today I'm joined by James Lawrence.
He's the cool founder at rocket agency.
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He's also the author of Smarter Marketer, Eleven Golden Rules to help inhouse
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marketers thrive in an ever changing digital
world. James, welcome to the show
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man. How's it going today?
Hey, Loogan, enough love posome to
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be on the show. It's it's
nice and early here in Sydney, Australia,
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so just had my coffee and yeah, ready to go. Awesome,
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man, it's afternoon out here,
mountain time in the states. I love
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connecting with guests across so many time
zones. It allows me to speak with
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so many smart marketers like yourself.
Didn't even mean to, you know,
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give this light not there to your
book. We are going to be talking
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about your book, Smarter Marketer.
As we mentioned in the subtitle. You
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break down eleven golden rules for inhouse
marketers. We're going to be talking about
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four of those specifically and breaking them
down a little bit for listeners today.
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Before we do that, James,
I would love for you to give us
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a little bit of context, tell
us a little bit about yourself and for
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context for listeners as well, what
you in the rocket agency team or up
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to these days? Yeah, awesome. So Um. Yes, we're digital
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marketing agency out of Sydney, Australia, founded in two thousand and six.
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Most of our work, he's in
late generation and brand development. So don't
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do any ECOM work for us.
We do a lot of complex be to
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be Lee generation work, mostly in
Seo sem, increasingly in social, Linkedin
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and obviously marketing, automation and content. Awesome. I Love Them. And
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so let's dive into the book.
We're going to be talking about four of
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these golden rules. What were some
of the main things that you were setting
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out to solve for before we get
into the specific rules that you want to
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break down, James, where where
you saw a need for this book and
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kind of what prompted you to write
it? Yeah, good question, Logan.
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I guess we've been doing our things
for, you know, ten,
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ten, twelve years. Get a
lot of questions from clients, typically being
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in house marketers and some some business
owners, basically always around the speed of
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change in digital marketing, where things
do move so quickly. But how do
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you put structure and bring more structure
and planning and strategy to digital marketing campaigns
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and just voted important to put down
all of our learnings from rover ten years
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and put them together into a process
which we felt that would be, you
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know, as applicable today is hopefully
in five years, ten years time.
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I love it, man. I
mean talk about the rate of change with
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everything going out there, with,
you know, travel bands and people changing,
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you know, their event strategy.
Even from the time that we record
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this today, on a Tuesday's when
it goes live two weeks from now,
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there could be a lot that's changed
in everybody's marketing plans. So we're not
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only dealing with, you know,
the rate of change in in just marketing,
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in the text AC and the tools
and the way that pier behavior of
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change, but there's so many things
going on around us, from the political
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landscapes and now the health landscape.
So I think anything that we can do
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to to make keeping up with that
rate of change easier for folks is something
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that's going to be useful. So
I'm excited to break down these. So
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let's jump into number one. Chapter
one in your book is centered around this
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golden rule that you sum up as
digital marketing is just marketing. UNPACK that
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a little bit for us and then
tell us, you know, what are
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the things that marketers need to do
in light of this truth? Yeah,
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yeah, nice one. Yeah,
I guess when we started the agency back
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in two thousand and six digital marketing
was was very much a technical purshoot,
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where Seo was all about linked building
and technical very much a technical outlook on
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on site. PPC was very much
what technical as well and technical optimizations and
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the penny drop. For us it
was post three or four years back when
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one of our young account managers walked
across the room and held up this book
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called Scientific Advertising and started reading from
it and started talking about the Split Tep,
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the importance of split testing ad copy
to reduce the cost of CPA in
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ads. was talking about the importance
of headlines. was talking about the importance
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of taking people's time and people wing
time for into account when putting adds together.
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was talking about basically using psychology principles
in advertising, and these are all
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things which is digital markets, you
know, in two thousand and fifteen.
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Two Thousand and sixteen were very much
native to us and the really interesting thing
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about the book is that it was
a book that was published in One thousand
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nine hundred and twenty three and that
probably was the catalyst for writing, for
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writing smarder marketer, our book,
where we realize that looks of these Classic
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Marketing Principles had moved their way into
digital and the campaign that we were running
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at the time the ones that were
most successful campaigns that would have been successful
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thirty forty years ago in a non
digital context, and the days of spinning
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up a technical seo campaign or a
technical Google ads campaign we're kind of gone,
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and that to really succeed with digital
marketing you had to apply a lot
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of the rules and strategies that have
been applied for the last Hundred Years in
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marketing. Absolutely, and I mean
there's two things from what you just said.
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One, I love that harking back
to the old school copywriting and and
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add writing in those sorts of things. Many smart marketers that I've talked to
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on the show offline in on Linkedin
are just such big proponents of going back
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to some of those classics on Copywriting, because human psychology has a changed that
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much even in the last one hundred
years. I mean you mentioned a book
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that's a hundred years old. That's
still that's still viable today. And the
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other aspect, you know, back
in the day Seo was much more technical.
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There are ways around those sorts of
things, and I almost laugh in
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our team was talking about this at
a recent offsite retreat when you talk about
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Seo, with every update of Google
comes, you know, some people kind
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of lose out and some people lose
some ground and everybody freaks out about that.
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But what rises to the top the
best content that answers the best question
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and answers the psychological or the material
need of that searcher right, and so
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that's the good news. If you
do have this mindset, this golden rule
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in mind that you talked about,
the digital marketing is just marketing and move
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from there. I love that.
Number two on your list of the four
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golden rules we're going to talk about
today is never forget the complexity of a
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prospects real life. HAVING BEEN IN
B Tob Sales for twelve years, I
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couldn't love this one more. It's
also a little bit more about this one
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and what marketers and sales people are
like need to think about when it comes
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to this rule. James, yeah, totally. I think this is a
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concept which, five years ago,
most non marketers would not agree with.
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I think we're getting to a point
now where, seen your sales business leaders
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are starting to come around to this
perspective. But essentially, for us,
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if we rewind ten fifteen years ago, if a client came to us gave
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us a hundred grand to invest in
Google ads, you know, you drive
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you tenzero visitors, you generate you
whatever it is, a couple of hundred
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lads, you work out how many
sales you get and then decide to pump
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the money back at the top of
the funnel by way of more budget next
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month. That's very much change.
Where as consumers, we now have the
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control if we're going to buy a
car, if we're we're going to engage
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in a you know, purchasing some
complex software. For our business, we
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do a lot of the research online, multi device, typically multiple stakeholders within
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an organization. If it's a BTC
purchase, then it's a husband wife team.
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They might be researching independently for the
car that they're going to purchase in
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eighteen months time. All of that
happens before we pick up the phone or
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fill out of form to speak to
a sales ripp in an organization, so
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that the bio behavior has changed.
Digital now plays a role and gone are
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the days of, you know,
a single touch point or a few easily
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trackable touch points. We're talking about
potentially hundreds of interactions. I think Google
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in their latest piece of research in
it more in a BITTERC Specter, but
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in terms of purchasing a car,
that we nine hundred digital touch points along
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that average path to purchase. And
we find the same thing working with a
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lot of clients in complex be tob
software as a service, for instance.
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It's virtually impossible to track that by
a journey, you know, download of
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white papers, block articles, Webinars, potentially listening to a podcast. You
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might have a paddle of ten people
in an organization on that path. So
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it's market as. I think we
need to realize that we need to meet
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people where they're at. We need
to give them content, give information,
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to meet them on their bier journey
and very much move away from this concept
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of a couple of touch points through
the sale. Yeah, absolutely, and
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I think the other thing that a
lot of marketers have to keep in mind
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is that, you know, every
touch point isn't necessarily going to be trackable.
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And you look at, you know, those hundreds of touch points in
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a car purchase with maybe a husband
and wife, for two people, head
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of household in that decision, most
be to be mid market or enterprise.
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are going to have seven, eight, nine, ten or more stakeholders in
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that decision at different points in the
buying process, and so one. Yes,
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there is some challenges to tracking all
of that and trying to tie that
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together, but at some point you've
got to go back to, like what
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you said earlier. Digital Marketing is
just marketing. Are we focusing on who
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we know are the stakeholders in trying
to put, you know, the right
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content in front of them, whether
it is always every single step is attributable
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and we can track it through,
you know, the three stages of the
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funnel or whatever the case might be. I think both are true, which
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kind of leads us to golden rule
number three on your list today, James.
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Understand data, but never forget it's
limitations of being. I think kind
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of what I was saying there leads
right into us all at it can.
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Let you take it from here,
man, because good segue. Like yeah,
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I think that's the two are clearly
very connected. That I mean back
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in the day that the want to
make a quote around. You know,
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half my half, money I'll spend
an advertising is waste to the trouble is
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I don't know which half right right. Ten years ago, digital was the
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answer to that ride, which is
it's trackable. We can track every single
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click, we can track every single
visit, we can track conversion rates,
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we can take money out of poor
performing campaigns and move them into successful campaigns.
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and think in many ways, coming
out of a digital marketing background,
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we had this almost superiority complex over
above the line and and offline advertising,
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where it was very much invested money
with us and we can tell you exactly
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where it's going. And I think
the really interesting thing there is is that
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we're seeing a massive swing against that
and that is because of the reality that
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the path to purchase it more complex
and at once. was where we've got
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better targeting, better remarketing, retargeting
capabilities, we've got more sophisticated marketing automation,
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but the path to purchase is mirroring
bard has always been offline, which
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is complex and nuanced. So for
us we absolutely obsess around measurement in the
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agency. We want to be able
to make sure that we can track spend
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through the outcome, but we also
really working with clients to encourage them to
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realize that not every single thing can
be tracked, that you need to invest
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in brand so whether that's Seo content, even putting paid media behind brand development
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activities where you're pretty happy to not
actually measure, you know, a dollar
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for dollar outcome. But at the
same time we're still encouraging clients to spend
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probably in a bitter B context,
probably forty to fifty percent of their budget
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should be going into campaigns where we
are looking at demand generation and Lee Generation.
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But super important to realize that you're
not going to be able to measure
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the commercial outcome in a kind of
a last click basis. So for us
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it's it's that, but then also
with daughter or it's the bread and butter
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of making sure that a lot of
your actual analytics and measurements set ups are
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working. I said probably half the
businesses that we order, even some pretty
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big sophistic headed businesses, they're actual
tracking and analytics set up is just manifestly
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wrong with the data that it's collecting. We still see massive issues with attribution
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where in house marketing teams don't have
a proper measurement framework, where they're not
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properly attributing particularly first touch, Second
Tash interactions with their brand and they're putting
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a lot of weighting on on last
click making decisions turning off channels that we're
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actually driving high quality traffic in the
first instance, but that traffic itself might
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not have been converting on the first
click. That's really interesting and I love
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that percentage breakdown that you talk about
in look at. Okay, the closer
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to sale, further down the funnel
and into mansion efforts. Yeah, you
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want to follow all the best practices
and connect your data and in attribute as
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much as possible and and test as
much as you can, but to think
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that, hey, we can apply
that same sort of data and logic to
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to every touch point. You know, and you talked about spending spending money
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on that brand awareness. You know, just something tactically that's come up probably
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three or four times already this week
and, as him mentioned at the time
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of this reporting only Tuesday. You
know, I see very few Bob Brands
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who are willing to invest in,
let's say, running ads for their video
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show or their podcast, because the
podcaster, the video show. It is
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brand awareness. It's very top of
the funnel brand awareness thought leadership content in
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general. I've seen some people,
like you said, tray and mix that
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and think that it's all. We
need to treat this like the mansion and
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we need to gape our podcast,
which I think is just massively the wrong
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way to go. But then if
you look at okay, we're going to
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run ads for our show, you've
got to have some commitment to spending money.
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You know, even that far above
the funnel. But again, where
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people aren't doing things, when you
zig, when everybody else is agging,
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there's some green field opportunity. So
I couldn't agree with you more in thinking
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about where do we drill into the
data and where do we just where do
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we just do good marketing at the
same time, then how clients that get
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the best results out of fate of
a Jigit a marketing of those that are
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investing heavily in the brand development activities. And for us the starting point is
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fifty five percent towards brand, forty
five percent towards to manage, and then
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we'll move that that number around depending
on the client depending on the vertical,
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depending on the industry, but the
businesses that are completely obsessed with bottom of
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the funnel late generation are inevitably paying
more parlaid than those that are investing further
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up the funnel. That's really interesting. Jane. Hey, everybody, logan
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the sweet fish year. You probably
already know that we think you should start
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a podcast if you haven't already.
But what if you have and you're asking
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these kinds of questions? How much
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dot US growth. That's sea steed
dot US growth. All right, let's
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get back to the show. What
are some of the things that you that
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you've seen in some of those companies
that have this setup that's leading to better
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outcomes with this fifty five percent on
brand awareness, forty five percent man engine.
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What are some of the things in
the top of the funnel that are
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working really well for some brands right
now? Yeah, well, I think
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first of all, the businesses and
brands that are willing to invest in the
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long term, so they're willing to
strength sink strategically and not being driven by
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monthly o quarterly styles marketing targets.
They've got that ability to first of all
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plan properly and then they're doing the
doing all the things we know about.
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They're putting out awesome content. They
are whether that's Seo, whether that's linked
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in organic, whether that's Linkedin paid, whether it's Webinars, whether it's podcasts,
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it's essentially high quality content that,
as you touched on earlier, answers
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the questions that there by a personas
actually care about and nurturing at a way
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that is giving value. Right.
So instead of sales driven out perspective to
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do to their email marketing and marketing
automation, they're actually being genuinely useful and
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providing value and then when it comes
to the you know, the point where
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their prospects and looking to actually purchase
their brand is already lifted up right.
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Is A statistic in the book which
I think comes from sticky branding by Jeremy
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Miller. I think it is that
in any given market only about three percent
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of that market is ready to buy
at any one moment. So if you're
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any kind of marketing to that three
percent, you're selling yourself quaite short,
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as a business, you need to
be investing in reaching that ninety seven percent
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that you know one day will buy, but it is yet ready for it.
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This is such a great reminder.
I mean I think pit phone number
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one is, okay, you're just
spending a hundred percent on demand generation and
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that's going to run out. And
also the stat that you shared towards the
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second half of that response there,
James, is that you're spending it and
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you're going to tap out that that
three percent pretty quickly, the percent that
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is in market. And then I
think the other pitfall is you are investing
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in brand awareness but the moment they
give you any sort of contact information,
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you've got them. You know you've
got that contact info. You go for
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that right hook. You you know, Gary V's book didn't Just Have One
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jab in it and then the right
hook. May think that's what some brands
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are doing. Is Job Right Hook. You know, I give them some
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credit for at least throwing one jab, but you got to throw some more
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jabs and identify when they're in that
by mode and then go there, because
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then they are going to be thankful
that you make it easy for them to
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buy you. You have a chat
set up on your website, whether you
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use and hub spot or drift or
intercom or something like that, and you
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make it easy to engage with your
sales team, because when people are are
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ready to buy, it's really frustrating
when they can't get the answers and they
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can't get in touch with your sales
team. But I think so often we're
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just we're going for that right hook
way too early. You've definitely like minded
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with us and I love some of
the data that you're sharing. That the
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backs up some of the things that
we're just talking about internally a lot here
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at sweet fish. James also touch
on golden rule number four before we wrap
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up today, and that's nothing is
more important than the message. As we
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wrap today. James, tell us
a little bit about this one and what's
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in your mind and what are some
of those successful brands that you're working with
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doing around this golden rule? Yeah, wellsome, you think you touched on
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a little bit earlier. What you're
kind of saying that, even from your
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perspective, is you know, at
some level, is probably a demistified itself
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the last plots to ten years,
and it's the brands that pumping up wholesome,
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quality content that that are slowly rising
to the top. And that's my
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general take on digital marketing, where
if we all agree that the technical elements
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are being slowly taken out of the
craft, what's remaining right, and that's
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typical classic marketing, which is traditionally
relied heavily on messaging. And for us,
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you just can't sustain success digitally without
having the right message and the right
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offers to the right people. And
every every month, brands like linkedin and
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Google are introducing more and more automation
into their AD platforms, into their organic
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algorithms. And as a marketer,
as a digital market are lots of the
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things that previously were done by people
and now being done by machines. And
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that trends not going away. So
what remains is the ability for humans to
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craft strategy and to craft messaging.
I firmly believe that we're not going to
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have bots that are pumping out automated, Ay driven messaging and content which will
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be able to hit a human the
way that that high quality copy and high
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quality messaging can. They might be
tools that assisted, but at the end
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of the day it's messaging which you
emotionally impacts humans and drives into action.
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So for us, the most important
thing in all of our campaigns is messaging.
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To put good quality content out there, you need to understand who you're
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trying to move and need to understand
their motivators, fears, objections, who
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they are and you need it intimately
understand the productile service that you're looking to
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actually promote as well. We often
find that a lot of the sergeants ill
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up at people will market as that
the way dealing with don't truly understand the
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benefit that their product will bring to
their end user. Absolutely, I mean
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it goes back to that that point
about understanding the complexity of our buyers lives,
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understanding, you know, what they're
what they're trying to accomplish. I
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just did a post on linkedin today
about why sales people should be creating content
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and and they should be working with
marketing. I'm not saying they should just
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go out and create their own content
and and you know kind of if marketing
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wants something to do with them or
to collaborate with them, that they should
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just push that aside. But those
sales people are talking daytoday with with potential
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buyers, and so just an encouragement
to marketers. If you're not listening to
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recorded sales calls, if you're not, you don't don't have a close relationship
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with your vp of sales or what
whoever your sales leader. Counterpoint and not
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just Oh hey, we attend the
same leadership meetings and we get along,
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but how are we working together to
treat that feedback loop between what are our
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prospects saying, what are our customers
saying, what are they asking for,
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and how do we use that to
inform our message and our content? And
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it's got to be you know,
back to the very beginning of the show
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today, James, things are changing
so quickly. It can't be this.
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Oh, we do this annually and
now we set out it needs to be
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on a regular rhythm. I agree
with everything you're saying today, James.
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If people listening to this would like
to go deeper on more than these four
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golden rules, find a copy of
the book or just stay connected with you
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online or reach out and follow up
question. What's the best way for them
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00:22:00.430 --> 00:22:03.549
to connect with you? Yeah,
for sure, I think get first and
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foremost. I absolutely love Linkedin,
so feel free to connect with me.
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UN So, James, Lawrence Oz
is my linkedn't handle. Yeah, always
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love to connect and you know,
mark it as world wide or business owners
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worldwide. Fantastic. The company website
is rockets Agencycom Goda, you were just
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00:22:22.579 --> 00:22:26.339
there with the contact form. And
if you're looking to puchase the poken learn
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00:22:26.380 --> 00:22:30.690
more, it's available on Amazon to
the Book Smarter Market Up. I love
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00:22:30.730 --> 00:22:33.410
it, James. Thank you so
much for joining me our cross time zones
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and having a great conversation on the
show today. Well, some leg and
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thanks thanks to you and thanks to
listeners. I hate it when podcasts incessantly
326
00:22:42.809 --> 00:22:47.079
ask their listeners for reviews, but
I get why they do it, because
327
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:49.920
reviews are enormously helpful when you're trying
to grow a podcast. Audience. So
328
00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:53.000
here's what we decided to do.
If you leave a review for be tob
329
00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:57.480
growth in apple podcasts and email me
a screenshot of the review to James at
330
00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:02.150
Sweet Fish Mediacom, I'll send you
a signed copy of my new book,
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00:23:02.190 --> 00:23:04.829
content based networking, how to instantly
connect with anyone you want to know.
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00:23:06.309 --> 00:23:08.190
We get a review, you get
a free book. We both win.