1249: Key Lessons to Successfully Pivoting in Your Startup Journey w/ Johnathan Grzybowski

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:08.390 Welcome back to be tob growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media. 2 00:00:08.669 --> 00:00:13.029 Today I'm joined by Jonathan Chris Bowski. He's the CMO and Co founder over 3 00:00:13.189 --> 00:00:16.670 at Penji. Jonathan, how's it going today, man, it is an 4 00:00:16.789 --> 00:00:21.109 absolute honor. Today is a very interesting point in time in our lives and 5 00:00:21.620 --> 00:00:24.739 I'm excited to be here. Yeah, absolutely, Man. So we're going 6 00:00:24.739 --> 00:00:28.100 to be talking about the phenomenal growth journey that you guys have been on at 7 00:00:28.179 --> 00:00:31.579 Pengjie. We're going to be talking about the ways that you guys have consistently 8 00:00:31.699 --> 00:00:35.340 been data driven, even with some very simple tools that have been kind of 9 00:00:35.619 --> 00:00:39.009 the backbone of what you guys have done, a couple of pivots that you've 10 00:00:39.049 --> 00:00:42.490 been through and things like that. For a little bit of context, give 11 00:00:42.490 --> 00:00:45.850 us a little bit of background on yourself and what you in the Penjie team 12 00:00:45.890 --> 00:00:48.329 are up to these days. Who you guys serve, what you do for 13 00:00:48.450 --> 00:00:52.240 some contexts. Yeah, so I've been an entrepreneur pretty much my entire adult 14 00:00:52.280 --> 00:00:56.320 life. Started pretty much at twenty three, but it goes all the way 15 00:00:56.320 --> 00:01:00.799 back until fourteen. Had A couple of businesses, all of them necessarily we're 16 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:04.790 successful and got us to exactly where we are today, but they were never 17 00:01:04.989 --> 00:01:10.750 necessarily the definition of success that I've always dreamed of. Peji, in particular, 18 00:01:10.989 --> 00:01:15.430 is a on demand graphic design service. We help agencies and small businesses 19 00:01:15.510 --> 00:01:21.299 with unlimited graphic design. Our customers go on to our platform, they submit 20 00:01:21.340 --> 00:01:23.900 as many requests they want and we deliver it back to them and or forty 21 00:01:23.900 --> 00:01:29.420 eight hours, all while the most beneficial way of only spending anywhere between four 22 00:01:29.459 --> 00:01:34.250 hundred dollars to eight hundred dollars a month. So it's literally like having an 23 00:01:34.290 --> 00:01:40.650 inhouse graphic designer and without necessarily having to hire anybody, without having the HR, 24 00:01:40.849 --> 00:01:44.569 without having the taxes and the health insurance all other fun stuff. So 25 00:01:44.650 --> 00:01:47.719 you just go on to our website, you sign up, you get rocking 26 00:01:48.159 --> 00:01:51.040 and then you get all some graphic design. I love it, man. 27 00:01:51.560 --> 00:01:53.599 I know that there are a lot of agencies and a lot of marketing teams 28 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:59.000 and a lot of small businesses to that don't have the ability to bring on 29 00:01:59.159 --> 00:02:01.709 more graphic design help, but they have a lot of graphic design needs, 30 00:02:01.709 --> 00:02:06.909 especially if they're, you know, drinking the champagne that we talked about all 31 00:02:06.950 --> 00:02:08.189 the time, and we drink a lot here, is that you've got to 32 00:02:08.229 --> 00:02:12.189 put out a lot of content. To be found these days, it's not 33 00:02:12.629 --> 00:02:15.379 quality or quantity, if it's, unfortunately both, and so they've got to 34 00:02:15.500 --> 00:02:20.819 find ways to scale the quality and the quantity at the same time. Well, 35 00:02:20.939 --> 00:02:23.580 speaking of scaling, man, what I want to do, Jonathan, 36 00:02:23.900 --> 00:02:27.939 before we get into some of the specific lessons from along your journey, if 37 00:02:27.939 --> 00:02:30.650 you could just tell us a little bit about, you know, the story 38 00:02:30.129 --> 00:02:34.090 of PNGJI, where you guys started, where you are today, kind of 39 00:02:34.129 --> 00:02:37.289 some of the pivotal points in your growth story, and then we're going to 40 00:02:37.370 --> 00:02:39.810 unpack some of the lessons learned. Man. So we've been a one hundred 41 00:02:39.810 --> 00:02:46.039 percent bootstrapped cash little positive company from the get go. We've never asked for 42 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:51.000 funding, and that's something that I'm incredibly proud of. And we've done that 43 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:54.159 through a lot of failure and a lot of trial and error. So we 44 00:02:54.240 --> 00:03:00.550 were originally a digital marketing agency, I'm sure, very similar to what you 45 00:03:00.590 --> 00:03:04.469 guys do or content producers, and the businesses that we were working with. 46 00:03:04.789 --> 00:03:07.990 We're awesome, but it wasn't rewarding because we were delivering these beautiful websites to 47 00:03:08.069 --> 00:03:12.710 universities, but it only really helps the university and not the people that are 48 00:03:12.750 --> 00:03:15.419 within the school. And so we were trying to think of like, well, 49 00:03:15.460 --> 00:03:17.259 how can we actually help the people in the school, and by school 50 00:03:17.300 --> 00:03:22.699 I mean the School of Entrepreneurship, in the School of small businesses throughout the 51 00:03:22.740 --> 00:03:25.620 United States in the world, and so we put out this this service called 52 00:03:25.659 --> 00:03:30.849 Peji in order to do that. And when we originally launched Penji, we 53 00:03:30.969 --> 00:03:34.969 thought that it was going to be the perfect solution for startups because in our 54 00:03:35.050 --> 00:03:38.530 area, in our region of the world, start us were incredibly in high 55 00:03:38.569 --> 00:03:44.400 demand and we're blowing up because of that particular process of startups to scale and 56 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:50.120 growth. And we were one hundred million percent wrong. We probably spent like 57 00:03:50.400 --> 00:03:53.520 six months trying to find a lot of startups and we interviewed and we talked 58 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:59.150 to and we got eventually got some of them on the platform. The problem 59 00:03:59.349 --> 00:04:02.710 was that their cashroow ran out and they didn't necessarily know how to structure a 60 00:04:02.750 --> 00:04:08.030 business properly. So we were the first people to go and to this day 61 00:04:08.030 --> 00:04:13.139 we still have startups and they are actually not we appreciate them, of course, 62 00:04:13.580 --> 00:04:16.699 but they are the the customers that stay on Peenji the shortest. And 63 00:04:16.860 --> 00:04:21.139 so throughout this journey we try to look at ways of all, how can 64 00:04:21.180 --> 00:04:29.970 we increase our customers monthly stay and how can we legitimately help people within our 65 00:04:30.009 --> 00:04:33.089 graphic design service? And it probably took us, like I said, six 66 00:04:33.170 --> 00:04:38.490 months to truly figure it out. And we did all this by looking at 67 00:04:38.529 --> 00:04:44.920 data. So we took google docs, Google sheets, our customer data. 68 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:47.879 We've interviewed every single one of our customers. Even still to this day, 69 00:04:48.079 --> 00:04:51.600 we interview all of our customers and we asked them simple questions like how did 70 00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:55.709 you find us? Where did you come from? If they say that, 71 00:04:55.829 --> 00:04:59.230 Oh, you googled us, well, what keyword did you Google? If 72 00:04:59.269 --> 00:05:01.310 you heard about a friend from a friend, who was that friend? So 73 00:05:01.389 --> 00:05:05.029 we can get that person props and Kudos, etc. Etc. So that 74 00:05:05.230 --> 00:05:11.300 data aspect has always been a key foundational like growth strategy, and now that 75 00:05:11.420 --> 00:05:15.139 we have a ton of customers that we're all incredibly grateful for, now we're 76 00:05:15.139 --> 00:05:18.220 able to kind of piece me out all together and it comes into like this 77 00:05:18.300 --> 00:05:23.209 beautiful puzzle. Before it was just a lot of like data plots and points 78 00:05:23.290 --> 00:05:25.970 that we had really had no idea what the hell it all meant. But 79 00:05:26.250 --> 00:05:30.610 if we didn't set that core foundation of making a point to focus on that 80 00:05:30.730 --> 00:05:34.569 data, then I don't I can confidently say that we wouldn't be the company 81 00:05:34.610 --> 00:05:38.519 that we are today if it wasn't for that moment. Yeah, I love 82 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:41.800 it, man. What is a way that you know, I've heard from 83 00:05:41.800 --> 00:05:45.439 a lot of start up founders that once you start to scale it's a little 84 00:05:45.439 --> 00:05:47.800 bit tougher to have the same sort of buy in, the same sort of 85 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:53.550 feeling of man, these things are core values or the things about your culture 86 00:05:53.589 --> 00:05:57.750 in the early days to get them to be as part of just the heart 87 00:05:57.870 --> 00:06:00.269 of everyone on the team. And you mentioned it was just kind of ingrained 88 00:06:00.310 --> 00:06:04.139 in you guys that we interview customers like we always do this. We're always 89 00:06:04.180 --> 00:06:09.379 looking for feedback. What have you guys done to make that consistent? Is 90 00:06:09.420 --> 00:06:13.379 it just, Hey, we bake this into our onboarding process, or it's 91 00:06:13.420 --> 00:06:16.259 always a check in at this certain time? Because I can imagine that in 92 00:06:16.379 --> 00:06:20.250 those six months of just like this, this doesn't seem to be right, 93 00:06:20.610 --> 00:06:24.689 it's some things not fitting and so you keep at it, but once you 94 00:06:24.769 --> 00:06:28.329 kind of hit that next level it's like okay, it's very easy to sit 95 00:06:28.410 --> 00:06:30.649 back and be like, we know what we do, we know who we 96 00:06:30.769 --> 00:06:34.240 serve. So how have you guys kept that, both mentally and just tactically, 97 00:06:34.399 --> 00:06:38.360 kept that going? Of We've got to always hear from our customers. 98 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:46.149 I think it stems from the hy aspect of it and the culture aspect of 99 00:06:46.230 --> 00:06:50.910 it. When we first started, we started our company by giving our service 100 00:06:51.589 --> 00:07:00.029 to nonprofits for one dollar a month and we've actually have continued that. Every 101 00:07:00.069 --> 00:07:04.100 year we have a class of about ten and fifteen nonprofits that that use our 102 00:07:04.139 --> 00:07:10.259 services for entire year. And I say that because that was our us. 103 00:07:10.379 --> 00:07:15.459 Giving back to our community has always been ingrained into our company culture, and 104 00:07:15.620 --> 00:07:19.329 so it's not weird in order for us to give back to our community during 105 00:07:19.370 --> 00:07:25.529 this time of crisis, right. I say that because if it's something that 106 00:07:25.649 --> 00:07:30.959 you just start without necessarily having the culture behind it, it's going to not 107 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:34.360 be authentic and it's not going to be real. So our culture was built 108 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:39.879 off of the curiosity, it was built off of understanding where other people's stories 109 00:07:39.920 --> 00:07:44.750 are. It's built off of just talking to people and communicating to people like 110 00:07:44.870 --> 00:07:48.189 human beings. How we've been able to maintain that is just because of the 111 00:07:48.230 --> 00:07:56.110 foundation elements of how we started. So because we're hiring people that are similar 112 00:07:56.269 --> 00:07:59.620 in the aspect that they they believe in the things that we believe as a 113 00:07:59.660 --> 00:08:03.939 company culture, it's a little bit easier and we don't necessarily have to retrain 114 00:08:03.100 --> 00:08:09.100 people to feel that way because we hired them for that purpose of aligning with 115 00:08:09.259 --> 00:08:11.500 our vision. Yeah, yeah, I love that, man, because I've 116 00:08:11.579 --> 00:08:16.529 trained managed been a salesperson for a long time. So let's talk about you 117 00:08:16.649 --> 00:08:20.250 know, in the context of sales, specifically hiring and coaching. They always 118 00:08:20.290 --> 00:08:22.170 say, you know, you can teach skill, you can't teach will, 119 00:08:22.569 --> 00:08:26.680 and I think that's the same sort of thing here. You can't just indoctrinate 120 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:31.679 someone with culture. You need to find folks who have that innate alignment with 121 00:08:31.919 --> 00:08:35.480 your core values. And if curiosity is one of your core values and it's 122 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:39.320 driven you to be able to ask good questions and be able to pivot in 123 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:43.909 the right way based on what you've heard, then it makes sense to you 124 00:08:43.990 --> 00:08:48.070 know, Bake that into your hiring process, take that into your recruiting process, 125 00:08:48.149 --> 00:08:50.429 like hey, we're looking for curiosity. I think that's that's a great 126 00:08:50.470 --> 00:08:54.909 lesson there man talk a little bit about once you guys pivoted. You know 127 00:08:54.029 --> 00:08:58.220 you're not focused as much on startups, you're looking at a different target in 128 00:08:58.340 --> 00:09:03.139 the market. How that helped you guys both change your messaging and make it 129 00:09:03.259 --> 00:09:05.899 more targeted, as well as just make your sales reps more productive. I 130 00:09:07.700 --> 00:09:13.570 would say when you give a sales rep or if you when you give anybody 131 00:09:13.649 --> 00:09:18.850 on your team at task, if it is not fairly thought of and processed 132 00:09:18.049 --> 00:09:22.490 in detail oriented, then that person is never going to succeed. And for 133 00:09:22.570 --> 00:09:28.799 the most part we were literally giving our team members documents where they had to 134 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:33.120 essentially do it themselves. And as a CO founder and as a leader of 135 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:37.120 the company, you can do that, it's going to have a lot of 136 00:09:37.679 --> 00:09:43.789 time wasted and and money wasted as well. So to this day we still 137 00:09:43.830 --> 00:09:46.830 don't know the exacts, but we're definitely getting better at it. But we 138 00:09:46.950 --> 00:09:48.909 want to be able to give our people as much information that says hi. 139 00:09:50.470 --> 00:09:54.419 We are looking for people who do this, that say these things on their 140 00:09:54.460 --> 00:10:00.620 website, that usually have about this number of people on Linkedin within their company. 141 00:10:00.700 --> 00:10:03.539 And if you find those people, they are great prospects and do whatever 142 00:10:03.539 --> 00:10:07.690 it takes in order for you to get inside that company. That's kind of 143 00:10:07.690 --> 00:10:09.809 just like the overarching thing. I don't know that answer to the question, 144 00:10:09.889 --> 00:10:13.929 but that that's just like the thought process that we have and I don't know 145 00:10:13.289 --> 00:10:16.690 exactly. It probably took US close to two years in order to get that 146 00:10:16.730 --> 00:10:22.360 answer. But now, with pinpoint actors, I could say very high probability 147 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:26.600 that if you find this, this, this and that, that you will 148 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:31.799 at least get a response, possibly a meeting. Yeah, and absolutely so. 149 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:35.509 Yeah, I mean here is wee fish. We've been through several of 150 00:10:35.629 --> 00:10:39.429 these pivots. You know, we started in the early days as a content 151 00:10:39.590 --> 00:10:43.389 writing agency and then, you know, James, realize, hey, we 152 00:10:43.549 --> 00:10:46.190 want to try and connect with folks in the nonprofit sector. I could start 153 00:10:46.230 --> 00:10:50.620 a podcast and interview those folks to be a guest, and we realize, 154 00:10:50.899 --> 00:10:54.019 well, it's a great way to connect with potential customers, but this sector 155 00:10:54.299 --> 00:10:58.220 it's just not a good fit. They don't have budget, they don't see 156 00:10:58.220 --> 00:11:01.379 value and what we're offering there. And it's very quick recap of that story. 157 00:11:01.460 --> 00:11:07.169 And then we pivoted into offering podcasting services and we thought well, sales 158 00:11:07.210 --> 00:11:11.450 leaders would love to have a podcast where their salespeople can connect with prospects by 159 00:11:11.529 --> 00:11:13.889 creating content with them. But then we realize, hey, sales leaders don't 160 00:11:13.889 --> 00:11:18.570 have budget for pid gusting marketers to right. And then after that then it 161 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:22.720 became okay, who in the marketing department is kind of our target persona is 162 00:11:22.759 --> 00:11:26.840 at the CMOS, at director level, and we've kind of honed that and 163 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:28.759 now, you know, we can say with confidence when we look at a 164 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:33.070 website, when we look at what are they doing from a marketing perspective right 165 00:11:33.070 --> 00:11:37.350 now? What's the tone of their content? Are they likely going to be 166 00:11:37.429 --> 00:11:41.269 a good fit for for us? So I can see a lot of similarities 167 00:11:41.350 --> 00:11:45.710 in the way that we pivot our overall service as well as who we're targeting. 168 00:11:45.950 --> 00:11:48.700 And then that just it gets refined. But you have to keep that 169 00:11:48.860 --> 00:11:52.139 curiosity, you have to keep asking those questions and documenting those things. The 170 00:11:52.259 --> 00:11:56.220 other thing that you were telling me earlier, Jonathan, offline, was that 171 00:11:56.620 --> 00:12:01.730 you guys learned a lot about your target market and your buyer personas through cold 172 00:12:01.769 --> 00:12:03.330 email. A lot of people think like, Hey, if I wratch it 173 00:12:03.370 --> 00:12:07.690 up cold email and my sales development efforts, then I might see some return 174 00:12:07.769 --> 00:12:13.289 on investment in in leads and revenue, but they tend to not think or 175 00:12:13.330 --> 00:12:16.960 maybe miss the fact that they're getting a lot of valuable feedback from the market 176 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:20.799 in that process. Can you speak to that as how it helped you guys 177 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:26.240 hone your messaging and and honing in on the folks that were really going to 178 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:28.919 be best at customers for you guys, we spent a lot of money in 179 00:12:30.000 --> 00:12:33.909 the very beginning on advertising and we looked at the advertising data and then we 180 00:12:33.950 --> 00:12:37.830 started emailing those types of people within those interests and then from that point on 181 00:12:37.990 --> 00:12:41.509 we're like, why is in this converting? So then what we do is 182 00:12:41.590 --> 00:12:46.419 we started just emailing as many people as possible in all different types of sectors. 183 00:12:46.899 --> 00:12:50.419 And then what we did we didn't care about anything other than just email, 184 00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:54.179 email, email, email. We primarily used our locality, our region, 185 00:12:54.740 --> 00:13:00.090 and when we started receiving responses, we actually then did a little bit 186 00:13:00.129 --> 00:13:03.690 more research when people were doing meetings with us and we said, okay, 187 00:13:03.730 --> 00:13:05.690 well, what does this person do? What is their audience size, whatever? 188 00:13:05.730 --> 00:13:09.289 How many likes they have on facebook? How many people do they have 189 00:13:09.450 --> 00:13:11.330 in their company? Who is the person that we spoke to? What was 190 00:13:11.370 --> 00:13:15.960 their job title and then we wrote it down on a piece of paper or 191 00:13:16.159 --> 00:13:18.759 on a Google Sheet, and then we got the next meeting in the next 192 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:20.440 being, next being in turn into a hundred plus meetings, and then we 193 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:24.879 sorted everything through. We said, what are the commonalities? Okay, well, 194 00:13:24.960 --> 00:13:28.750 the marketing manager title is actually the number one thing. That's that's an 195 00:13:28.789 --> 00:13:33.389 outlier. That's the one thing that is that is common amongst every single one 196 00:13:33.470 --> 00:13:37.190 of beads. What sector are they and is it? It is a marketing 197 00:13:37.230 --> 00:13:41.860 agencies, etc. Right, and then once we narrow that down, then 198 00:13:43.059 --> 00:13:46.419 we created the profile. Now it's with pinpoint actors, I could say, 199 00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:52.100 find the X of this type of company within this region and we will not 200 00:13:52.259 --> 00:13:58.090 move on to other regions until we've have social proof. But we're very, 201 00:13:58.210 --> 00:14:01.330 like, very slow in the aspect that we're going to start local yet as 202 00:14:01.409 --> 00:14:05.809 many customers as we can local, become experts in our local area and then 203 00:14:07.009 --> 00:14:11.720 find a way to go into other into other cities, but only the regions, 204 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:15.320 only people that know us. We were still global company. We have 205 00:14:15.399 --> 00:14:20.240 thousands of customers, but we really focus our sales efforts from an email perspective, 206 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:24.629 like in a local aspect. Advertising does does the best and we also 207 00:14:24.669 --> 00:14:28.230 have great Seo. So our SEO is as a game changer. As a 208 00:14:28.309 --> 00:14:31.750 content specialist yourself, if you think SEO is dead, you're a hundred percent 209 00:14:31.789 --> 00:14:35.870 wrong. Yeah, absolutely, Man. Then we've been actually leaning into our 210 00:14:37.029 --> 00:14:43.139 SEO strategy lately as the discoverability of podcasts are going through some changes, and 211 00:14:43.340 --> 00:14:48.659 how you can go about planning your podcast content for an accompanying blog post that 212 00:14:48.820 --> 00:14:52.769 is reverse engineered with with SEO in mind. You know, the thing that 213 00:14:52.889 --> 00:14:56.730 we keep saying is like, you know, people are like. Well, 214 00:14:56.009 --> 00:15:01.850 it's just constantly changing and with every Algorithm Update, who wins? The folks 215 00:15:01.889 --> 00:15:05.970 that are delivering the best content that match the search intent. First it was 216 00:15:05.009 --> 00:15:09.720 keyword stuffing and then all these black cat tricks and now backlinks have less of 217 00:15:09.799 --> 00:15:13.759 an effect and it's really about if you can find what people are searching for 218 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:18.240 and create content that answers that question better than what's on the first page of 219 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:22.350 Google right now, you're going to win. So you are spot on, 220 00:15:22.470 --> 00:15:24.509 man. We are. We are like minded. Right there. One of 221 00:15:24.509 --> 00:15:28.269 the most important things is good content, as you mentioned before. So good 222 00:15:28.309 --> 00:15:31.990 content is really important and I think a lot of people think that they're creating 223 00:15:33.029 --> 00:15:37.539 good content, but they're really not. And I would say this that if 224 00:15:37.820 --> 00:15:41.620 you are the type of person like me that likes to go on the Internet 225 00:15:41.700 --> 00:15:46.019 and read really detailed guides and like, why wouldn't you give that person respect 226 00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:50.289 by giving an email or whatever it may be? To us? We didn't 227 00:15:50.370 --> 00:15:54.529 realize that good, what good content was, probably until too late, and 228 00:15:54.769 --> 00:16:00.490 now we're going back of our past efforts and making everything better, and then 229 00:16:00.570 --> 00:16:03.360 all the new stuff that we produce is really good too. So I think 230 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:07.320 like you should have an emphasis on content, yes, but if it's not 231 00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:11.360 legitimately helping people and you're just producing content to make yourself feel good, to 232 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.759 look good, it should from my perspective, every piece of content should have 233 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:22.629 a derivative or is should result to a sale. And if you're not writing 234 00:16:22.710 --> 00:16:26.470 something in your head to think of us, to have the end result be 235 00:16:26.590 --> 00:16:30.470 a sale, then stop writing it now. Just stop what you're doing and 236 00:16:30.590 --> 00:16:34.139 go back to doing something else, because you need to convert whatever piece of 237 00:16:34.220 --> 00:16:37.980 content is that you're doing the same way that you're converting your podcast. If 238 00:16:38.019 --> 00:16:41.620 this podcast isn't converting, then stop doing the podcast, simple as that. 239 00:16:42.259 --> 00:16:47.610 Yeah, and and I would say it's not always as simple as that initial 240 00:16:47.889 --> 00:16:52.450 conversion, because the way that you drive people towards conversion is, like you 241 00:16:52.610 --> 00:16:56.210 said, is this something that, if I were sitting here, I would 242 00:16:56.210 --> 00:17:00.570 actually want to read right like? So here's an example. Lots of work 243 00:17:00.649 --> 00:17:03.640 from home and remote tips and that sort of stuff blowing up on Linkedin and 244 00:17:03.759 --> 00:17:08.440 everywhere right now. Right I wrote a simple post on linkedin that was just 245 00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:11.640 like hey, when I'm on zoom, I switch it to gallery view, 246 00:17:12.039 --> 00:17:17.150 I take it off of full screen and I arrange it to where the other 247 00:17:17.349 --> 00:17:21.349 person is right below my Webcam so I can make better eye contact. Like 248 00:17:21.670 --> 00:17:25.109 that. Seems like super simple. It is very in the weeds, but 249 00:17:25.150 --> 00:17:29.710 I had so many people like commenting and sharing and like this is this is 250 00:17:29.750 --> 00:17:33.539 a great tip, because I know that you know whether you're hopping on zoom 251 00:17:33.579 --> 00:17:38.700 calls to do podcasts or sales calls or just internal calls. It's something that's 252 00:17:38.740 --> 00:17:45.289 happening right now and it's actually useful and it's actually valuable and if you have 253 00:17:45.490 --> 00:17:49.170 that sort of empathy and that value mindset in your content, then it will 254 00:17:49.250 --> 00:17:53.490 convert. It will. Now it's got to be tangental to your productor to 255 00:17:53.529 --> 00:17:57.569 the community that you you serve. Like I could write articles all day about 256 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:02.920 underwater basket weaving right, but that's not going to lead to adding value to 257 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:06.240 marketers. But it is something right now that's in the world and being on 258 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:10.599 zoom calls all the time. So I would say empathy drives the value of 259 00:18:10.640 --> 00:18:14.190 your content and when you have that, you will drive conversions. Man, 260 00:18:14.269 --> 00:18:17.349 I love it, Jonathan. Awesome. Well Man, this has been a 261 00:18:17.470 --> 00:18:21.750 great conversation. If anybody has been intrigued by your story would like to ask 262 00:18:21.789 --> 00:18:25.150 you some follow up questions, or maybe they want to learn more about Pengjie, 263 00:18:25.150 --> 00:18:26.579 get in touch with you guys or just follow along with some of your 264 00:18:26.980 --> 00:18:30.460 amazing content. What's the best way for them to reach out or stay connected 265 00:18:30.500 --> 00:18:34.859 with you guys? Yeah, it's Pegi Dot CEO, Pan Ji Dot CEO, 266 00:18:36.579 --> 00:18:38.579 if you like everything that we that I said, if he feels that 267 00:18:38.660 --> 00:18:41.490 that you're in need of a graphic design resource like ours, if you want 268 00:18:41.490 --> 00:18:45.930 to scale your graphic design team, penjy dot CEO. Awesome man, Jonathan. 269 00:18:47.049 --> 00:18:48.049 Thank you for joining me on the show today. This has been a 270 00:18:48.089 --> 00:18:56.319 lot of fun. Thanks then, hey, everybody, logan with sweet fish 271 00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:00.000 here. If you're a regular listener of BB growth, you know that I'm 272 00:19:00.039 --> 00:19:02.960 one of the cohosts of the show, but you may not know that I 273 00:19:03.000 --> 00:19:06.440 also head up the sales team here, is sweetfish. So for those of 274 00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:08.960 you in sales or sales offs, I wanted to take a second to share 275 00:19:10.069 --> 00:19:14.710 something that's made us insanely more efficient lately. 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