Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.710 Welcome back to be tob growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media. 2 00:00:08.910 --> 00:00:13.509 I'm joined today by Tim Rester. He's the chief strategy officer over at corporate 3 00:00:13.550 --> 00:00:17.629 visions. He's also the CO author of the expansion sale. Tim, welcome 4 00:00:17.670 --> 00:00:19.910 to the show. How's it going today? Hey, Logan, thanks for 5 00:00:19.989 --> 00:00:23.820 having me. It's great and I'm pleased to be here. Thanks absolutely. 6 00:00:23.859 --> 00:00:26.899 We were just chatting a little bit offline. I've enjoyed one of your previous 7 00:00:26.940 --> 00:00:30.899 books, conversations that when the complex sale and things that I've shared with other 8 00:00:30.980 --> 00:00:34.820 sales professionals out of that book. For folks who aren't familiar with you, 9 00:00:35.259 --> 00:00:38.450 give us a little bit of background on yourself and what you in the corporate 10 00:00:38.490 --> 00:00:41.329 visions team are up to these days. Well, we bring sort of a 11 00:00:41.329 --> 00:00:46.049 unique perspective to marketing and sales. Were researchers and the era of what we 12 00:00:46.130 --> 00:00:51.280 call the decision sciences, neuroscience and social psychology and behavioral economics. I like 13 00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:56.640 to refer to them as the invisible forces that shape how humans make decisions. 14 00:00:56.679 --> 00:00:59.920 Right. So we study how people frame value, how they make choices, 15 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:06.030 we do experiments and then we turn that into messaging frameworks. and to build 16 00:01:06.069 --> 00:01:11.989 stories and then storytelling skills to have the conversations and make the presentations that make 17 00:01:11.030 --> 00:01:15.709 sales people work. Absolutely storytelling makes sales people work. As I think, 18 00:01:15.790 --> 00:01:18.700 the way I'd sum it up there, and it, you know, goes 19 00:01:18.739 --> 00:01:22.780 in line with our previous conversation, being both former journalists coming out of Jay's 20 00:01:22.780 --> 00:01:26.459 school. Skills that you get there are just so vital to sales and marketing 21 00:01:26.500 --> 00:01:30.939 professionals. Today. We're going to be talking today about the form, must 22 00:01:30.980 --> 00:01:34.129 win, why moments in every customer relationship. You know, as as my 23 00:01:34.209 --> 00:01:41.650 good friend Chad Sanderson at value selling associates and Todd Capony have have reminded me 24 00:01:41.730 --> 00:01:45.609 at times, there's three questions you have to answer for any new prospect right. 25 00:01:46.049 --> 00:01:49.280 Why? Change? Why you and why? Now we're going to be 26 00:01:49.439 --> 00:01:53.159 talking about, for wise, that come after that, after they've said yes, 27 00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:57.879 that are pivotal, especially if you're in any sort of recurring revenue model 28 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:00.950 sort of business, obviously any sort of SASS business, then recurring revenue and 29 00:02:01.069 --> 00:02:06.709 retention is just as important as that net new revenue. So let's kick it 30 00:02:06.790 --> 00:02:09.509 off. Tell us a little bit context for the expansion sale, why you 31 00:02:09.590 --> 00:02:14.110 felt it was important what the book is about. No more. Get into 32 00:02:14.270 --> 00:02:17.500 each of these four why moments. Yeah, so you when you talk about 33 00:02:17.539 --> 00:02:22.740 customer acquisition, New Logo Acquisition, as people like to call it, that's 34 00:02:22.780 --> 00:02:29.340 been studied and that's been invested, that's been written on at nauseum and eventually, 35 00:02:29.379 --> 00:02:32.370 as as more companies were looking into the idea of wow, we have 36 00:02:32.449 --> 00:02:38.210 a lot of recurring revenue and a lot riding on retention and renewal rates. 37 00:02:38.289 --> 00:02:43.650 That's where it started. Should we be taking the same approach to those conversations 38 00:02:43.770 --> 00:02:46.280 as we do to the other one? Should we be taking that why? 39 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:50.000 Change? Why Now? Why? A sort of thing, and I'll admit 40 00:02:50.159 --> 00:02:53.800 we were pretty bought into that whole thing too, and we said, well, 41 00:02:53.919 --> 00:02:55.439 here's the difference. We do experiments. We should go check that out, 42 00:02:57.080 --> 00:03:01.229 and that began a journey about three years ago of doing studies in the 43 00:03:01.270 --> 00:03:06.349 area of customer expansion and trying to understand, given that we're into the psychology 44 00:03:06.389 --> 00:03:12.900 of buying, do prospects have a different psychology as you approach them versus customers? 45 00:03:13.419 --> 00:03:16.099 And it turns out they do, and it's a hundred and eighty degrees 46 00:03:16.180 --> 00:03:21.979 different. Acquiring a new logo and convincing a prospect why they should change and 47 00:03:22.180 --> 00:03:28.129 why they should kick someone else out and pick you, versus defending and reinforcing 48 00:03:28.250 --> 00:03:32.050 your position of incumbency is completely different. Yet every company we talked to takes 49 00:03:32.090 --> 00:03:37.050 pretty much one motion through this whole thing. So I'd like to think we 50 00:03:37.169 --> 00:03:39.330 were one of the first companies to really, from a scientific standpoint, begin 51 00:03:39.370 --> 00:03:44.159 exploring this thought. Man, that is really interesting and I love the way 52 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:47.199 that you guys looked at hey, there's an opportunity here for to ask this 53 00:03:47.280 --> 00:03:53.080 question and then taking your research based approach and tackling it. So we're going 54 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:57.069 to be talking about why stay, why pay more, why evolve and why 55 00:03:57.229 --> 00:04:00.990 forgive? But before you get to any of those future forks in the Road 56 00:04:00.069 --> 00:04:04.310 Tim you've got to convince folks why stay. So let's talk about this moment 57 00:04:04.389 --> 00:04:08.789 and how we need to approach it. Yeah, nothing really happens with an 58 00:04:08.830 --> 00:04:14.099 existing customer if you can't hold onto them, selling them more and charging them 59 00:04:14.300 --> 00:04:18.420 more and apologizing and continuing in the relationship. It all falls apart if you 60 00:04:18.459 --> 00:04:23.060 can't keep them past that first contract. In fact, what happened is people 61 00:04:23.100 --> 00:04:26.930 came to us and said, listen, we we start making money on a 62 00:04:27.089 --> 00:04:30.050 second contract because of what it took to get them, the cost what it 63 00:04:30.129 --> 00:04:34.129 took in the first contract to frankly set them up and and kind of over 64 00:04:34.329 --> 00:04:39.879 service them. It's like the second contracts refarts first start making money. So 65 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:44.079 we looked at that moment and, because everybody was into those fun question based 66 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:47.959 models for acquisition, we picked why stay and we said let's take a look. 67 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:54.470 And really what we did is we took the the that provocation based defeat, 68 00:04:54.509 --> 00:04:57.709 the status quote, why change? Why Now? Sort of model, 69 00:04:58.069 --> 00:05:03.350 and pitted it against one that deliberately reinforced status quo bias. And what we 70 00:05:03.509 --> 00:05:08.339 know is that humans live in status quo bias and you have to disrupt it 71 00:05:08.860 --> 00:05:12.139 if you want to change your mind. But we wondered, do you do 72 00:05:12.220 --> 00:05:15.579 you need to defend it when you're trying to keep them, or should you 73 00:05:15.660 --> 00:05:18.019 actually just keep disrupting, because, shoot, it seemed like it worked the 74 00:05:18.060 --> 00:05:25.329 first time, and so we basically built messaging that defeated status quote bias and 75 00:05:25.569 --> 00:05:28.129 ask for a renewal. Like it came in and said here's what's new, 76 00:05:28.610 --> 00:05:31.250 here's some new needs, here's some new research, here's some new capabilities and 77 00:05:31.250 --> 00:05:34.720 it really led and leaned into the new which, I'll be honest, most 78 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:39.399 renewal messaging that we look at does. there. I think most people go, 79 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:43.160 I've been our customers board with us. We should talk about our new 80 00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:46.639 stuff first. Yeah, it's everything we see is lead with the new because 81 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:49.430 one you might be bored with it and you think your customer might be in 82 00:05:49.509 --> 00:05:51.589 your like this is the moment we need to tell them, but our new 83 00:05:51.629 --> 00:05:56.230 stuff so they stay with us. Turns out not so much that. In 84 00:05:56.310 --> 00:06:00.310 fact, what you need to open with this they is deliberately documenting the results, 85 00:06:00.389 --> 00:06:04.779 the outcomes, the business impact that you've had, because anchoring them on 86 00:06:04.819 --> 00:06:10.500 a positive experience, reminding them of the positive experience, creates all kinds of 87 00:06:10.579 --> 00:06:16.100 psychological goodness that transcends the rest of the conversation. It reinforces something that status 88 00:06:16.100 --> 00:06:20.769 quo bias calls preference stability. Your the current preference and they would like to 89 00:06:20.889 --> 00:06:27.129 keep it stable. So do something to reinforce preference stability. The next move, 90 00:06:27.250 --> 00:06:30.449 then, is to remind them of the investment in the effort everybody's made. 91 00:06:30.449 --> 00:06:34.040 It's called sunk cost. We all know this concept. Sunk cost fallacy. 92 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:38.000 What's not a fallacy. Everybody believes in it. I've come this far, 93 00:06:38.439 --> 00:06:41.680 I've made these investments, we've on board of these people, we've made 94 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:46.240 the process changes, we've all accepted the new nomenclature. You know what the 95 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:48.470 heart parts done and you kind of want to remind them of that. In 96 00:06:48.589 --> 00:06:54.069 what you're doing is right there. You're building a little mote around your relationship. 97 00:06:54.350 --> 00:06:58.709 I call that the the incumbent advantage. The impact you've had in the 98 00:06:58.829 --> 00:07:02.459 investment that's been made is something you're outside competitor trying to get in can't even 99 00:07:02.699 --> 00:07:06.740 touch. So if you neglect that in your story, you're basically going to 100 00:07:06.819 --> 00:07:12.100 sound the same as the outside competitors coming in all talking about your new stuff 101 00:07:12.459 --> 00:07:15.689 and in reality you've got something they don't have, which is the incumbent advantage, 102 00:07:15.889 --> 00:07:19.089 and you should be documenting it, you should be relaying it and reminding 103 00:07:19.129 --> 00:07:23.649 them, because they're not sitting around committing it to memory. You you have 104 00:07:23.810 --> 00:07:28.449 to actually deliberately reinforce that. Well, I can see a lot of people, 105 00:07:28.569 --> 00:07:31.319 and I'm probably been guilty of this myself, having sales and renewal conversations 106 00:07:31.480 --> 00:07:38.759 that we're just so used to approaching and delivering something new and challenging the status 107 00:07:38.759 --> 00:07:41.279 quo that we're doing that in renewal, but the way that you broke it 108 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:44.990 down there that basically, if we do that we're giving up the income and 109 00:07:45.149 --> 00:07:48.269 advantage that we have, the psychological and the real advantage that we have, 110 00:07:48.389 --> 00:07:53.910 because sometimes there are very definitive switching costs. You know, I saw an 111 00:07:53.949 --> 00:07:58.550 ad for higher internet speed with a different provider, you know, for spending 112 00:07:58.579 --> 00:08:01.300 the same amount. So what did I do? I called my current provider 113 00:08:01.339 --> 00:08:03.660 and said, Hey, can you match it? They they increased my speed, 114 00:08:03.779 --> 00:08:07.660 didn't increase my price. It still wasn't as good as the offer I 115 00:08:07.740 --> 00:08:11.779 saw over here. But I knew tech visit. I don't know about their 116 00:08:11.860 --> 00:08:15.610 customer service. I've never had an outage with my current is ISP. All 117 00:08:15.649 --> 00:08:18.209 those sorts of switching costs at rattling around in my head and I'm like, 118 00:08:18.529 --> 00:08:22.009 well, I'm happy I got closer to what I saw was available over there 119 00:08:22.329 --> 00:08:24.329 and I really never had, you know, any issue. More speed is 120 00:08:24.329 --> 00:08:28.319 good because I'm a podcaster and I'm recording video all the time, that sort 121 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.440 of stuff. So I can speak from personal experience and we always want to 122 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:35.559 learn from BTC examples when we look at at b Tob Sales and marketing. 123 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:39.200 So, Tim we've talked about why stay. Let's talk about why pay more. 124 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.230 All right, we figured out we need to adjust our approach to why 125 00:08:43.389 --> 00:08:46.710 stay. Now we need to convince them, either because our prices are going 126 00:08:46.789 --> 00:08:50.789 up or, you know, whatever the situation might be. Tell us about 127 00:08:50.830 --> 00:08:54.629 this moment and what some of the research has uncovered. Yeah, so when 128 00:08:54.669 --> 00:08:58.700 we did the renewal study, we hadn't included a price increase and everybody kind 129 00:08:58.700 --> 00:09:03.379 of raise your hand said, Whoa, wait, we often discounted to get 130 00:09:03.419 --> 00:09:05.220 the business and we need to get some of that margin back. So can 131 00:09:05.259 --> 00:09:09.539 you? Can you test that again with the price increase? And we said 132 00:09:09.580 --> 00:09:13.409 sure, because maybe, just maybe, if you're going to ask for more 133 00:09:13.490 --> 00:09:16.370 money, maybe you should lead with the new stuff again. So we thought, 134 00:09:16.370 --> 00:09:20.570 Hey, let's reinvestigate this provocative lead with the new because, shoot, 135 00:09:20.570 --> 00:09:24.720 we're going to ask them for more money. So we built a story around 136 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:30.039 new ask for money and then we built a story around reinforce your incombent advantage 137 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:35.120 ask for money, and we tried two different tactics. Just ask for the 138 00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:37.909 straight increase. In this case we chose four percent on the renewal of the 139 00:09:37.990 --> 00:09:43.830 contract or set a high target, eight percent, and then offer a customer 140 00:09:43.950 --> 00:09:48.470 loyalty discount and state, but that numbers. For our new customers you only 141 00:09:48.509 --> 00:09:50.789 have to pay four percent. So we took advantage of more science there and 142 00:09:50.909 --> 00:09:56.179 said anchoring is a real thing, anchored high and then some sort of justification. 143 00:09:56.379 --> 00:10:01.860 Justifications a huge piece of human decision making signs. So anchor high with 144 00:10:01.980 --> 00:10:05.220 a justified discount versus a straight number. So we really tested for conditions. 145 00:10:05.740 --> 00:10:11.090 We tested that aggressive why change, everything's new with a straight for or an 146 00:10:11.169 --> 00:10:16.370 anchored eight reduced for, and then we tested the why stay method with an 147 00:10:16.409 --> 00:10:18.649 anchored eight and a straight for. I hope everybody can follow that without the 148 00:10:18.730 --> 00:10:22.600 visuals, but the bottom line is is that Lo and behold, even when 149 00:10:22.600 --> 00:10:26.960 asking for a price increase, because you're asking your existing customers. They re 150 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:33.759 spawned better, in fact in some cases twice as much better, than the 151 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:37.549 first test where there was no price increase and you compared it to why change, 152 00:10:37.070 --> 00:10:41.870 and so in terms of their favorability, they're willingness to pay the price 153 00:10:41.029 --> 00:10:48.389 increase and renew their likelihood of looking at competitors. The why stay framework with 154 00:10:48.990 --> 00:10:52.779 that justified anchored higher price and then a lower price for you as a customer. 155 00:10:54.659 --> 00:11:00.340 Crushed the Y change model. So in a price increase, reminding them 156 00:11:00.419 --> 00:11:03.450 of the goodness, the progress, the positive momentum, the investment, the 157 00:11:03.570 --> 00:11:09.090 effort that's already sunk, and then ending with and when here's a couple new 158 00:11:09.129 --> 00:11:11.450 things we're going to do for you and it's going to cost a little bit 159 00:11:11.490 --> 00:11:13.049 more, but not as much as our new people, you get a deal 160 00:11:13.129 --> 00:11:18.879 because you're a loyal customer. Blew away the hey, let's lead with what's 161 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:24.559 new and then convince them to pay more. So it really, it really 162 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:30.039 doubles down on this idea that that humans are risk averse when it comes to 163 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:35.070 change. And and when you when you introduce that much change like the other 164 00:11:35.269 --> 00:11:37.950 model, they and if you introduce that to your existing customers, are wow, 165 00:11:39.190 --> 00:11:41.350 jeepers, if I've got to change that much, there's so much new 166 00:11:41.470 --> 00:11:45.590 here, I might as will examine all my options. So if you're if 167 00:11:45.629 --> 00:11:48.500 your Internet provider, let's go back to that for a second, if they 168 00:11:48.500 --> 00:11:50.899 didn't got on the phone and didn't just make it easy enough for you to 169 00:11:50.019 --> 00:11:54.659 upgrade your speed and manage your cost, if they said you know what, 170 00:11:54.820 --> 00:11:58.700 Logan, while we're talking and I've got these five really cool new things that 171 00:11:58.940 --> 00:12:03.169 we'd like to try with you and we'd like to apply, and there this 172 00:12:03.330 --> 00:12:05.929 and there this and there that, and and you heard some of the same 173 00:12:05.970 --> 00:12:09.730 things from your other provider, you might go you know, this might be 174 00:12:09.929 --> 00:12:13.490 the right time to change, because if I've got to change this much, 175 00:12:13.889 --> 00:12:18.440 if I've got to go through this much different sort of like absorb this kind 176 00:12:18.480 --> 00:12:22.080 of change for my current provider, now might pay the time to evaluate all 177 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:26.240 my options. And so you just made it easier for them to think about 178 00:12:26.279 --> 00:12:30.990 changing because you introduce so much change. I hope that made sense. So 179 00:12:31.149 --> 00:12:37.789 instead we always talk about put your new on the back end of anchoring them 180 00:12:37.029 --> 00:12:41.429 on the existing and the positive and the investment and the effort. And you 181 00:12:41.549 --> 00:12:45.820 get the win on the back end because the new is still there, but 182 00:12:45.940 --> 00:12:50.419 it's in the content, comfortable, safe confines of the contract that they already 183 00:12:50.500 --> 00:12:54.580 like, the safe confines. Leaning into some good psychology there as well. 184 00:12:54.740 --> 00:12:58.850 Tim There's a couple things that that you said. They're, you know, 185 00:12:58.169 --> 00:13:05.370 one leading with why stay in and showing the those advantages as just kind of 186 00:13:05.490 --> 00:13:09.210 little extra bonus like if it wasn't enough that we're going to keep you safe, 187 00:13:09.490 --> 00:13:13.200 we're going to keep things familiar, all those sorts of things, then 188 00:13:13.240 --> 00:13:16.440 there is a little bit of bonus and that does also kind of help you 189 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:18.720 with that little bit of price increase. I love what you said. You 190 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:24.039 said it multiple times. That justify discount, just a discount, makes you 191 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:28.950 look like a shady sales person or marketer just saying, Oh, all of 192 00:13:28.990 --> 00:13:31.669 a sudden we can provide you with this four percent discount or ten percent discount, 193 00:13:31.750 --> 00:13:35.710 that that's kind of that it's the end of the quarter and my deal 194 00:13:35.870 --> 00:13:39.269 was padded before and now you know you're getting a better deal on that just 195 00:13:39.429 --> 00:13:43.820 leads you with kind of that Ikey feeling. But, like Todd Capone says 196 00:13:43.980 --> 00:13:48.259 in the transparency cell, when you relay, Hey, here's the advantage we're 197 00:13:48.259 --> 00:13:52.379 getting as a business for the discount, you know, a longer term or 198 00:13:52.500 --> 00:13:54.889 more volume or whatever it is, or these added benefits. Right, and 199 00:13:56.169 --> 00:14:00.049 you use price anchoring, which you know so much other research and studies point 200 00:14:00.049 --> 00:14:03.330 to as well, then you're you're headed down the right track. So we've 201 00:14:03.330 --> 00:14:05.850 talked about why stay, why pay more? We've got why evolve and why 202 00:14:05.970 --> 00:14:09.370 forgive. I really want to get to why forget, but before we do 203 00:14:09.529 --> 00:14:13.440 that let's talk about why evolved. What are some situations where this dynamic comes 204 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:16.240 into play and how you want to approach it to him? Yeah, there's 205 00:14:16.279 --> 00:14:20.840 three situations that our customers tell us about. So we have a lot of 206 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:24.950 customers who need to upgrade or migrate their customer. So imagine the people who 207 00:14:24.990 --> 00:14:28.909 have on premise software and things like that that are moving the the cloud and 208 00:14:30.070 --> 00:14:33.070 they have these customers just kind of dragging their feet, and so they're like 209 00:14:33.309 --> 00:14:37.669 Gee, I need to move them to the newer version because all of our 210 00:14:37.710 --> 00:14:41.899 advances, all of our development, all of our competitive advantages are going to 211 00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:43.620 go there. And if we don't get them to the new thing, that's 212 00:14:43.659 --> 00:14:46.620 going to give the competitor a chance to come in and teach them about that 213 00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:50.539 new thing and and so you got to get them there. So that's one 214 00:14:52.019 --> 00:14:54.649 then, and then the other is the add on sale. Sometimes they buy 215 00:14:54.690 --> 00:14:58.450 the platfor form and they didn't buy all the ancillary services. And then the 216 00:14:58.529 --> 00:15:01.570 others the cross cell. You got my one thing, you should really have 217 00:15:01.730 --> 00:15:05.289 this other thing. So if you think of somebody like sales force, you 218 00:15:05.330 --> 00:15:07.799 bought sales force cloud, you should buy marketing cloud, you should buy analytics 219 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.399 cloud, you should buy this cloud. That cloud mayby to Bobby Bou classes 220 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:15.080 like Amazon does. Hey, you bought a mop, you probably need a 221 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:18.039 bucket. You probably need a sponge. Right, right, exactly. So 222 00:15:18.360 --> 00:15:20.990 all of those we can. We'd bucket. No Pun intended, I guess. 223 00:15:22.149 --> 00:15:26.389 Under this idea of why evolved. Why do more with why? Continue 224 00:15:26.549 --> 00:15:33.350 to expand the relationship? And what we found there is, interestingly, we 225 00:15:33.470 --> 00:15:35.580 thought again, Hey, maybe when we're trying to ask him to do something 226 00:15:35.659 --> 00:15:39.100 that new, like move from on Prem to the cloud or, you know, 227 00:15:39.379 --> 00:15:46.259 buy this extra ancillary thing or buy this adjacent cross cell thing, maybe 228 00:15:46.340 --> 00:15:52.210 then we should go back to the why change? Why now, more provocative 229 00:15:52.210 --> 00:15:54.250 sort of sale, because guess what we're trying to go after? Maybe new 230 00:15:54.330 --> 00:15:58.730 money or new services, new, new, New News, so I should 231 00:15:58.730 --> 00:16:02.929 act like it's new. And so we dead we tested that and we tested 232 00:16:02.970 --> 00:16:06.679 the why change, why now story against the y stay story with some of 233 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:11.320 these advantages on the back end, and then we built a hypothetical hybrid model 234 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.360 that we said let's couch it in the partnership and relationship, but let's spike 235 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:22.389 it with some of the emotional language of of the why change story and just 236 00:16:23.070 --> 00:16:26.149 to test it. And what we did, as we opened again, with 237 00:16:26.509 --> 00:16:30.590 documenting results and being able to demonstrate positive impact. Because here's what we found 238 00:16:30.629 --> 00:16:38.659 is I'm more loyal or I'm more willing to investigate potentially some additional things from 239 00:16:38.659 --> 00:16:42.700 you if I feel that I've had some success with you. And even if 240 00:16:42.740 --> 00:16:47.289 you're like jumping over to another product line that they're using a competitor on, 241 00:16:47.570 --> 00:16:52.809 you still leverage your incumbent advantage because it put you on each at least equal 242 00:16:52.929 --> 00:16:56.330 footing with your competitor, as opposed to jumping out and acting like a competitor, 243 00:16:56.409 --> 00:17:00.250 act like another incumbent and and say, okay, here's what we've done 244 00:17:00.250 --> 00:17:04.279 over here and look, we've had success in your organization and have had some 245 00:17:04.440 --> 00:17:07.920 results in your organizations, so we know how to operate your environment. Oh, 246 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:11.680 by the way, from our seat we've been able to observe over there. 247 00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:15.440 We've seen some things, we've heard some things and all of a sudden 248 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.829 we got inside information. And then you go and we work with a lot 249 00:17:18.910 --> 00:17:22.430 of companies like you and those same areas. So now you have outside information. 250 00:17:22.990 --> 00:17:26.470 So the best part of the Y evolve is you're bringing the internal perspective 251 00:17:26.470 --> 00:17:30.420 as an incumbent and you observe these things in the other areas. Couple that 252 00:17:30.579 --> 00:17:37.259 with the external view of working with other companies like them in those new areas 253 00:17:37.539 --> 00:17:41.019 and now you've got this intersection, this perspective, where they then kind of 254 00:17:41.059 --> 00:17:45.490 lean in and and we talked about being able to now share hard truths. 255 00:17:45.049 --> 00:17:49.849 Hard truths is that ability to share something provocative, but in the context of 256 00:17:51.130 --> 00:17:53.930 we've done some good things for you, were invested with you and let's just 257 00:17:55.049 --> 00:18:00.000 take an objective look with you as we compare our internal findings with our external 258 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:03.759 knowledge and see what that shows. And then when they see those hard truths 259 00:18:03.759 --> 00:18:07.319 about a missed opportunity or potential problem, you share the risk of no change 260 00:18:07.400 --> 00:18:11.039 and the value of change. You give them options, because at this point 261 00:18:11.319 --> 00:18:15.750 you're just a friendly you're inside and you're giving them some advice and and you 262 00:18:15.869 --> 00:18:18.750 show them both options. So now what did you see? You saw some 263 00:18:18.950 --> 00:18:22.029 partnership. Piece of it the reinforcement of stats que bias and he so just 264 00:18:22.150 --> 00:18:27.140 enough emotional language and provocation embedded in it. So I call it a hybrid 265 00:18:27.220 --> 00:18:32.579 model. Why evolved needs to do both the relational thing and the emotional thing, 266 00:18:33.019 --> 00:18:36.460 and so we've got a very specific model. We tested it and once 267 00:18:36.500 --> 00:18:41.289 again it beat why change why now hands down. So it proves that in 268 00:18:41.410 --> 00:18:45.250 existing customers, even when you have to go after new budget, new money, 269 00:18:45.690 --> 00:18:49.329 you act like an incumbent and you put things in context of your relationship, 270 00:18:49.730 --> 00:18:52.329 even if it's a new buyer, decisionmaker. We discovered. So, 271 00:18:52.650 --> 00:18:59.079 yeah, important finding there is not to panic if there's an incumbent. You 272 00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:02.839 just act like you're also an incumbent, because why would you give up any 273 00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:07.440 of that ground and try and act like an outsider? There's just no value 274 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.789 that. Hey, everybody logan with sweet fish here. If you've been listening 275 00:19:11.869 --> 00:19:15.150 to the show for a while, you know we're big proponents of putting out 276 00:19:15.150 --> 00:19:19.950 original, organic content on linked but one thing that's always been a struggle for 277 00:19:19.990 --> 00:19:25.099 a team like ours is to easily track the reach of that Linkedin con it. 278 00:19:25.460 --> 00:19:27.660 That's why I was really excited when I heard about shield the other day 279 00:19:27.740 --> 00:19:33.059 from a connection on you guessed it linked in. Since our team started using 280 00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:37.819 shield, I've loved how it's let us easily track and analyze the performance of 281 00:19:37.900 --> 00:19:42.690 our linkedin content without having to manually log it ourselves. It automatically creates reports 282 00:19:42.769 --> 00:19:48.450 and generates some dashboards that are incredibly useful to see things like what content has 283 00:19:48.529 --> 00:19:51.609 been performing the best and what days of the week are we getting the most 284 00:19:51.609 --> 00:19:56.680 engagement and our average views proposed. I'd highly suggest you guys check out this 285 00:19:56.759 --> 00:20:00.079 tool if you're putting out content on Linkedin, and if you're not, you 286 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.200 should be. It's been a game changer for us. If you go to 287 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:07.589 shield APP DOT AI and check out the ten day free trial, you can 288 00:20:07.670 --> 00:20:11.789 even use our promo code be to be growth to get a twenty five percent 289 00:20:11.910 --> 00:20:15.990 discount. Again, that's shield APP DOT AI and that Promo Code is be 290 00:20:17.390 --> 00:20:21.390 the number to be growth. All one word. All right, let's get 291 00:20:21.390 --> 00:20:26.579 back to the show. That's what I keep coming back to and what you 292 00:20:26.700 --> 00:20:30.740 said earlier and not giving up your incumbent advantage. In one of the ways 293 00:20:30.779 --> 00:20:34.420 that you can do that. You mentioned pointing out your inside knowledge. Hey, 294 00:20:34.539 --> 00:20:38.609 we've already worked with Tom and the IT team and and you know these 295 00:20:38.690 --> 00:20:42.890 individuals and point that out. You know, drop the names that your competitors 296 00:20:42.970 --> 00:20:48.210 don't know and show your inside knowledge, but don't just say pit that against 297 00:20:48.450 --> 00:20:49.880 Hey. Well, they're saying they're here and all this stuff out in the 298 00:20:49.920 --> 00:20:53.839 market and this and that. Combined the two together so that you have one 299 00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:59.720 to punch, where the nonincumbents only have that one jab and and you're going 300 00:20:59.759 --> 00:21:03.920 to you're going to outlast them. So I like that. Let's talk about 301 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:07.349 why forgive. This is really interesting to me, Tim because I think there 302 00:21:07.349 --> 00:21:11.069 are a lot of folks who get this wrong, personally, professionally, but 303 00:21:11.190 --> 00:21:14.390 obviously we're talking in the context of BB sales here. You know, a 304 00:21:14.430 --> 00:21:17.349 couple of things. I've been thinking about this recently. I read never split 305 00:21:17.349 --> 00:21:22.019 the difference a couple of times a negotiation. Chris Voss talks about an accusation 306 00:21:22.099 --> 00:21:26.059 audit as a strategy. There will link to one of those episodes here in 307 00:21:26.099 --> 00:21:27.940 the show notes. The other thing that I hear a lot is, well, 308 00:21:29.180 --> 00:21:32.259 this and this and this and this and this, but and then come 309 00:21:32.380 --> 00:21:36.529 all your excuses for the reasons that you know you're having to apologize, and 310 00:21:36.609 --> 00:21:40.329 to me you know that, but cancels out everything that came before it. 311 00:21:40.369 --> 00:21:42.210 So anyway, those are a couple of my thoughts. Let's hear with the 312 00:21:42.250 --> 00:21:47.009 research actually has to say about how you approach these? Why forgive moments to 313 00:21:47.049 --> 00:21:48.839 him? Yeah, so I want to be clear. This isn't what we 314 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:52.160 tested. Is Not the moment when somebody calls you up in their hair is 315 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:56.440 on fire and your you know, I'm sorry. Now let me get to 316 00:21:56.559 --> 00:22:00.670 this, because what you're going to hear in the winning apology framework is that 317 00:22:02.470 --> 00:22:08.349 the first thing you don't say is open with the the softer apology. In 318 00:22:08.470 --> 00:22:11.750 fact, the thing you open with is what's called the offer to repair. 319 00:22:12.549 --> 00:22:18.900 What happens is, in in a service breakdown or a problem, the thing 320 00:22:18.059 --> 00:22:25.140 that causes people to feel more positive about you is that you've documented and memorialized 321 00:22:25.660 --> 00:22:30.529 the plan. And I always joke that when you go to a renewal or 322 00:22:30.569 --> 00:22:36.329 sometime later, people will only maybe remember the hair on fire moment until you 323 00:22:36.490 --> 00:22:40.849 document the part where you really made it better. And what we've discovered is 324 00:22:40.890 --> 00:22:44.089 it's something called the service recovery paradox, and we might know this from B 325 00:22:44.250 --> 00:22:47.799 to c. If you recover well from a service problem, you can actually 326 00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:52.799 get higher loyalty and more satisfaction because you got on everybody's radar and you did 327 00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:56.000 something awesome in response, even though you were part of the problem, versus 328 00:22:56.000 --> 00:22:59.789 if you just kind of puttered along and it came to renewal and everything. 329 00:22:59.869 --> 00:23:02.150 Like we work with them, do you? What? Do you write right? 330 00:23:02.230 --> 00:23:04.029 But yeah, like, I don't know, seems to work. So 331 00:23:04.509 --> 00:23:07.349 we know this works and now it's been proven in D to be but the 332 00:23:07.390 --> 00:23:10.750 point is what they say in B tob is like, at the moment you're 333 00:23:10.750 --> 00:23:12.099 back, they're trying to renew or do more. They have to be able 334 00:23:12.099 --> 00:23:17.299 to look at something that refreshes them on all you did, and it turns 335 00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:19.660 out that the first thing they need to hear isn't I'm sorry, the first 336 00:23:19.660 --> 00:23:22.099 thing they need to read, seeing here, as they circulate this, is 337 00:23:22.460 --> 00:23:26.569 here's the offer to repair, which says here's what we've done to now hear 338 00:23:26.650 --> 00:23:30.369 me on this. This is important to restore the perception of lost value. 339 00:23:32.089 --> 00:23:37.329 There's something in the psychology of fairness and justice, and when a problem happens, 340 00:23:37.410 --> 00:23:42.200 people believe that this fairness exchange has been violated and they need justice to 341 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:48.480 happen. And so the opening of a great apology that is documented and memorialized 342 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:52.279 is here's the offer to repair. We're going to do this and we're providing 343 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:56.150 these resources at no extra charge. We're going to add a few months onto 344 00:23:56.190 --> 00:24:00.789 your contract for any lost time, and you know this is quadruple any of 345 00:24:00.829 --> 00:24:04.309 the time that was lost. And and it what it is is it's restoring 346 00:24:04.750 --> 00:24:11.980 fairness and the and the perceived lost value. And it's almost like they can't 347 00:24:12.339 --> 00:24:18.859 hear your apology until they know that justice has been done in fairness has been 348 00:24:18.940 --> 00:24:22.619 restored and and what we found is that the best place for the real I'm 349 00:24:22.700 --> 00:24:27.450 sorry part is the closing. There's some things in between where you you demonstrate 350 00:24:27.569 --> 00:24:32.089 we understand what the problem is. You explain all the fixes you've put in 351 00:24:32.170 --> 00:24:33.490 place, because they're like, okay, gotta know you know what it was 352 00:24:33.769 --> 00:24:37.569 and got to feel like you've got it covered and here's the things we're going 353 00:24:37.609 --> 00:24:40.559 to do to mitigate it and prevent it going forward. That's great. That's 354 00:24:40.559 --> 00:24:42.880 all in the middle, but on the front end is the offer to repair 355 00:24:44.119 --> 00:24:47.799 and replace the perception of lost value and on the back end, the exit, 356 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.710 the Outro, is all the sorry and the losing formula. Had those 357 00:24:52.869 --> 00:24:56.750 flipped. Yeah, so parents, saying you're sorry at the beginning and then 358 00:24:56.829 --> 00:25:00.589 going through the explanations of what you did to fix it and then ending with 359 00:25:02.509 --> 00:25:06.109 okay, and here's how we're going to restore the value had the exact opposite 360 00:25:06.109 --> 00:25:08.980 effect. In fact, of all the test conditions we tested, the worst 361 00:25:10.180 --> 00:25:14.220 performing test condition was the one that opened with sorry and ended with offer to 362 00:25:14.299 --> 00:25:18.180 repair. The best performing was the one that opened with offer to repair and 363 00:25:18.299 --> 00:25:21.019 closed with sorry. and which you need to know in our test is we 364 00:25:21.140 --> 00:25:25.250 use the exact same words. We built the words for each of these sections 365 00:25:25.529 --> 00:25:27.849 and we just put them in different orders. So the exact same words were 366 00:25:27.890 --> 00:25:33.890 said, but the order made all the difference by magnitudes, double digit increases 367 00:25:33.970 --> 00:25:38.799 in willingness to buy, advocate, you know, satisfaction, and so just 368 00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:44.000 getting the words in the wrong order could completely blow your apology. So we 369 00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:47.079 were so excited, to be honest, when we found that finding and it 370 00:25:47.200 --> 00:25:52.670 was so consistent, so powerful across multiple tests, large audiences and many test 371 00:25:52.750 --> 00:25:56.470 conditions. Are Scientists who work with us. We use outside scientists for this 372 00:25:56.509 --> 00:26:00.589 stuff at Stanford in the states and work business school outside London. They were 373 00:26:00.630 --> 00:26:03.420 like amazed that when you put that many people through it, use that many 374 00:26:03.460 --> 00:26:07.660 test conditions to get one right answer Oh and, by the way, they 375 00:26:07.700 --> 00:26:10.819 were the same words, just different order. They're like, I was amazing. 376 00:26:11.220 --> 00:26:14.099 So what I would tell you is, if anybody needs to document apologies, 377 00:26:14.420 --> 00:26:18.009 I am extremely confident in this framework. Yeah, it goes to show 378 00:26:18.089 --> 00:26:22.130 something that I've talked about for salespeople in the past. What do we typically 379 00:26:22.210 --> 00:26:26.730 do? Like right now we're in the middle of the covid nineteen pandemic, 380 00:26:26.809 --> 00:26:30.250 and so what are a lot of sales people doing? They're putting that hey, 381 00:26:30.369 --> 00:26:33.720 hope you're staying safe healthy, your family's doing great. Then boom the 382 00:26:33.880 --> 00:26:37.880 rest of their normal pitch right. Well, one, there's got to be 383 00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:41.000 a little bit more finesse than that. But to I've seen this before with 384 00:26:41.200 --> 00:26:45.960 just when you're not in the middle of trying to message within a pandemic, 385 00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.549 where where you switch things right, if I reached out to you said hate 386 00:26:48.549 --> 00:26:52.430 Tim I really think we should talk because of X Y Z, that a 387 00:26:52.190 --> 00:26:56.069 by the way, I hope you're staying safe and saying I've been using my 388 00:26:56.150 --> 00:27:00.990 smart speaker to play nature sounds and keep me calm. One, you're going 389 00:27:00.029 --> 00:27:03.900 to remember the last thing said and to it's not that. Hey, I 390 00:27:04.019 --> 00:27:07.019 put that thing at the bottom that seems like a pleasantry, but when I 391 00:27:07.180 --> 00:27:11.140 took the time to do it at the end, as opposed to the beginning, 392 00:27:11.460 --> 00:27:15.140 it no longer seems like a pleasantry. It seems like I have invested 393 00:27:15.259 --> 00:27:19.210 that time into that personalization and that, you know, heartfelt thought. And 394 00:27:19.410 --> 00:27:22.890 same thing here with the apology. When you save it for the end, 395 00:27:22.890 --> 00:27:26.450 it's more memorable and to you. Didn't just say it because you had to 396 00:27:26.529 --> 00:27:29.450 say it to get on too. Well, let's just deal with your problem. 397 00:27:29.609 --> 00:27:32.319 Right. It has the opposite effects. So I've seen it in other 398 00:27:32.519 --> 00:27:36.119 cases and I love that your research is backing this up. That man. 399 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:38.319 I mean the positive thing here is you're probably doing the right things, you're 400 00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:41.960 just doing them in the wrong order. So a slight change can can make 401 00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:45.549 some dramatic impacts. Right. Yeah, well, back to our journalism training. 402 00:27:45.630 --> 00:27:49.950 Often I buried the lead and they did write paragraph off and they're like 403 00:27:51.109 --> 00:27:53.829 see that paragraph, the second or that's the news. So I've pretty much 404 00:27:53.829 --> 00:27:57.470 learned to every time to write and then take the first paragraph off and I 405 00:27:57.549 --> 00:28:00.740 have a better I have a better story. But yes, people here and 406 00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:06.579 remember first and last. And if your first are sounding like everybody else is, 407 00:28:06.619 --> 00:28:10.299 which they do anymore these days. You start to dismiss them because you're 408 00:28:10.299 --> 00:28:11.180 like, well, IE, over, this is going you know. You 409 00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:15.529 say something a little bit different. That connects with me, especially in an 410 00:28:15.569 --> 00:28:19.690 apology that restores fairness and value. I'm I all right, dude, I 411 00:28:19.809 --> 00:28:22.490 got my pound of flesh. Now I'm willing to listen to the rest of 412 00:28:22.569 --> 00:28:26.690 it. And then, as you exit on an apologetic note, you like 413 00:28:26.849 --> 00:28:30.759 that that was awesome. They got it, they understood, they they felt 414 00:28:30.839 --> 00:28:34.319 my pain. So it's interesting. There's so much psychology involved. We all 415 00:28:34.440 --> 00:28:40.200 have good intentions when we try things. And in sales, I like to 416 00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:42.549 say this, in the world now there's we say, all we got so 417 00:28:42.670 --> 00:28:48.230 much data, so much data, we just need a few more crystallized theory 418 00:28:48.789 --> 00:28:52.029 based on the data. In sales we have way too many theories and not 419 00:28:52.150 --> 00:28:56.500 enough data. And when we come at it from an angle of data and 420 00:28:56.619 --> 00:29:00.460 say here, here is a data driven theory, not just an opinion. 421 00:29:00.500 --> 00:29:04.299 Or someone examined folklore or I had some personal experience, what we found in 422 00:29:04.420 --> 00:29:07.579 the research? This is real quick on the apology is when I showed the 423 00:29:07.660 --> 00:29:12.170 five test conditions in any room, I'm in unanimous not unanimously. I would 424 00:29:12.170 --> 00:29:15.529 say seventy to eighty percent of the room picks like condition number four. It's 425 00:29:15.529 --> 00:29:18.369 not even important that you know what that condition was, but there seems to 426 00:29:18.450 --> 00:29:22.049 be an obvious winner. That's the one that takes last place, and I 427 00:29:22.289 --> 00:29:26.680 love that moment because what it says is you have good intentions but not the 428 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:30.119 right instincts, that the human brain works in a slightly counterintuitive way than what 429 00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:34.480 we think or want to believe, and so you got to do these experiments 430 00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:38.910 to get it right, because your good intentions are not always right, even 431 00:29:38.950 --> 00:29:44.309 if they're good intentions in terms of getting the outcome you're looking for. Yeah, 432 00:29:44.390 --> 00:29:48.509 absolutely, Man, it makes me really sad to see bad email copy, 433 00:29:48.670 --> 00:29:51.829 bad messaging, which is the best of intentions as I read through it. 434 00:29:51.869 --> 00:29:55.619 Maybe that's just the journalistic editor in me that I'm always slicing and diicing 435 00:29:56.059 --> 00:29:59.980 emails and plus some the host of a sales and marketing podcast. But, 436 00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:03.380 tim this has been a fantastic conversation. I feel like you and I could 437 00:30:03.380 --> 00:30:07.099 riff on things all day long, especially with the research that that you bring 438 00:30:07.210 --> 00:30:08.809 to bear on this. If, for the sake of time, I do 439 00:30:08.930 --> 00:30:12.569 want to wrap things here. For folks who are taken notes here. These 440 00:30:12.690 --> 00:30:18.809 four pivotal moments that you have to manage correctly. Why stay? Why pay 441 00:30:18.930 --> 00:30:22.400 more? Why evolve and why forgive Tim this has been a great conversation. 442 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.519 As we've talked about throughout this conversation, you guys have dug into a lot 443 00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.480 of research here. If folks want to take next steps, look at some 444 00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.839 examples, look at some research of all this stuff. Where's the best place 445 00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:37.390 for them to either reach out to you, stay connected or find more of 446 00:30:37.509 --> 00:30:40.470 this research and some of the things you guys have been doing. Yeah, 447 00:30:40.470 --> 00:30:44.630 absolutely well. The book is on Amazon, of course, at the expansion 448 00:30:44.670 --> 00:30:47.670 sale, and we're please that for the first three weeks it was out it 449 00:30:47.829 --> 00:30:51.980 was the number one best seller in sales and marketing and customer relations. So 450 00:30:52.180 --> 00:30:55.819 we know we've hit a nerve. But corporate visions is the company, corporate 451 00:30:55.859 --> 00:31:00.299 VISIONSCOM, and go to our research tab you'll find an ebook on the fore 452 00:31:00.339 --> 00:31:04.609 must win moments. So think of it as the Reader's digest if anybody remembers 453 00:31:04.690 --> 00:31:08.769 that. No, I don't know if maybe remembers that. Considered the abridged 454 00:31:08.809 --> 00:31:11.730 version of our book. So golph notes, cliff notes works that's good. 455 00:31:11.809 --> 00:31:17.329 Still remember that. Okay. So corporate VISIONSCOM. Go to the research tab 456 00:31:17.490 --> 00:31:21.319 and you'll see that we have webcast on this. We have free ebooks, 457 00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:23.519 so a lot of free resources to get you started. Read more about the 458 00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:27.319 studies, see the different examples. You can compare and contrast and see the 459 00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:32.400 winning formulas which you can then follow. Awesome, Tim, this has been 460 00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:36.150 a great conversation. Thank you for sharing those will will point listeners to some 461 00:31:36.230 --> 00:31:38.910 follow up resources in the show notes. They're definitely want to check out. 462 00:31:38.910 --> 00:31:44.190 Corporate VISIONSCOM. Go to the research tab if you like getting into a lot 463 00:31:44.230 --> 00:31:47.859 of this psychology around be tob sales and marketing. There a couple episodes I 464 00:31:47.900 --> 00:31:52.740 did with Chris Voss, former FBI hostage negotiator, you can check out in 465 00:31:52.859 --> 00:31:56.740 the show notes, and todd capony over on the BB sales show if you're 466 00:31:56.779 --> 00:32:00.980 not yet subscribed to that show. As usual here on BB growth we're talking 467 00:32:00.059 --> 00:32:04.650 sales and marketing, all sales, all the time. is happening over on 468 00:32:04.769 --> 00:32:08.730 the BB sales show. That episode does transparency sell better than perfection with Todd 469 00:32:08.769 --> 00:32:12.490 capony. Will Link to that in the show notes as well. Tim. 470 00:32:12.690 --> 00:32:15.720 Thank you again for the research and everything you've put into this book and the 471 00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:17.880 prep you did for today's interview. Thank you for joining me on the show. 472 00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:22.759 Logan, thanks for having me. Appreciate your interest. I hate it 473 00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:28.000 when podcasts incessantly ask their listeners for reviews, but I get why they do 474 00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:31.150 it, because reviews are enormously helpful when you're trying to grow a podcast audience. 475 00:32:31.509 --> 00:32:35.230 So here's what we decided to do. If you leave a review for 476 00:32:35.349 --> 00:32:38.349 be tob growth and apple podcasts and email me a screenshot of the review to 477 00:32:38.470 --> 00:32:43.390 James at Sweet Fish Mediacom, I'll send you a signed copy of my new 478 00:32:43.470 --> 00:32:46.180 book, content based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you want to 479 00:32:46.299 --> 00:32:50.500 know. We get a review, you get a free book. We both 480 00:32:50.539 --> win.
