Transcript
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Welcome back to be tob growth.
I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media.
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I'm joined today by Tim Rester.
He's the chief strategy officer over at corporate
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visions. He's also the CO author
of the expansion sale. Tim, welcome
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to the show. How's it going
today? Hey, Logan, thanks for
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having me. It's great and I'm
pleased to be here. Thanks absolutely.
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We were just chatting a little bit
offline. I've enjoyed one of your previous
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books, conversations that when the complex
sale and things that I've shared with other
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sales professionals out of that book.
For folks who aren't familiar with you,
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give us a little bit of background
on yourself and what you in the corporate
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visions team are up to these days. Well, we bring sort of a
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unique perspective to marketing and sales.
Were researchers and the era of what we
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call the decision sciences, neuroscience and
social psychology and behavioral economics. I like
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to refer to them as the invisible
forces that shape how humans make decisions.
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Right. So we study how people
frame value, how they make choices,
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we do experiments and then we turn
that into messaging frameworks. and to build
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stories and then storytelling skills to have
the conversations and make the presentations that make
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sales people work. Absolutely storytelling makes
sales people work. As I think,
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the way I'd sum it up there, and it, you know, goes
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in line with our previous conversation,
being both former journalists coming out of Jay's
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school. Skills that you get there
are just so vital to sales and marketing
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professionals. Today. We're going to
be talking today about the form, must
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win, why moments in every customer
relationship. You know, as as my
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good friend Chad Sanderson at value selling
associates and Todd Capony have have reminded me
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at times, there's three questions you
have to answer for any new prospect right.
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Why? Change? Why you and
why? Now we're going to be
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talking about, for wise, that
come after that, after they've said yes,
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that are pivotal, especially if you're
in any sort of recurring revenue model
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sort of business, obviously any sort
of SASS business, then recurring revenue and
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retention is just as important as that
net new revenue. So let's kick it
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off. Tell us a little bit
context for the expansion sale, why you
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felt it was important what the book
is about. No more. Get into
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each of these four why moments.
Yeah, so you when you talk about
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customer acquisition, New Logo Acquisition,
as people like to call it, that's
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been studied and that's been invested,
that's been written on at nauseum and eventually,
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as as more companies were looking into
the idea of wow, we have
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a lot of recurring revenue and a
lot riding on retention and renewal rates.
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That's where it started. Should we
be taking the same approach to those conversations
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as we do to the other one? Should we be taking that why?
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Change? Why Now? Why?
A sort of thing, and I'll admit
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we were pretty bought into that whole
thing too, and we said, well,
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here's the difference. We do experiments. We should go check that out,
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and that began a journey about three
years ago of doing studies in the
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area of customer expansion and trying to
understand, given that we're into the psychology
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of buying, do prospects have a
different psychology as you approach them versus customers?
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And it turns out they do,
and it's a hundred and eighty degrees
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different. Acquiring a new logo and
convincing a prospect why they should change and
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why they should kick someone else out
and pick you, versus defending and reinforcing
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your position of incumbency is completely different. Yet every company we talked to takes
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pretty much one motion through this whole
thing. So I'd like to think we
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were one of the first companies to
really, from a scientific standpoint, begin
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exploring this thought. Man, that
is really interesting and I love the way
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that you guys looked at hey,
there's an opportunity here for to ask this
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question and then taking your research based
approach and tackling it. So we're going
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to be talking about why stay,
why pay more, why evolve and why
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forgive? But before you get to
any of those future forks in the Road
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Tim you've got to convince folks why
stay. So let's talk about this moment
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and how we need to approach it. Yeah, nothing really happens with an
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existing customer if you can't hold onto
them, selling them more and charging them
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more and apologizing and continuing in the
relationship. It all falls apart if you
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can't keep them past that first contract. In fact, what happened is people
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came to us and said, listen, we we start making money on a
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second contract because of what it took
to get them, the cost what it
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took in the first contract to frankly
set them up and and kind of over
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service them. It's like the second
contracts refarts first start making money. So
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we looked at that moment and,
because everybody was into those fun question based
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models for acquisition, we picked why
stay and we said let's take a look.
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And really what we did is we
took the the that provocation based defeat,
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the status quote, why change?
Why Now? Sort of model,
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and pitted it against one that deliberately
reinforced status quo bias. And what we
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know is that humans live in status
quo bias and you have to disrupt it
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if you want to change your mind. But we wondered, do you do
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you need to defend it when you're
trying to keep them, or should you
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actually just keep disrupting, because,
shoot, it seemed like it worked the
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first time, and so we basically
built messaging that defeated status quote bias and
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ask for a renewal. Like it
came in and said here's what's new,
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here's some new needs, here's some
new research, here's some new capabilities and
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it really led and leaned into the
new which, I'll be honest, most
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renewal messaging that we look at does. there. I think most people go,
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I've been our customers board with us. We should talk about our new
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stuff first. Yeah, it's everything
we see is lead with the new because
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one you might be bored with it
and you think your customer might be in
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your like this is the moment we
need to tell them, but our new
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stuff so they stay with us.
Turns out not so much that. In
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fact, what you need to open
with this they is deliberately documenting the results,
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the outcomes, the business impact that
you've had, because anchoring them on
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a positive experience, reminding them of
the positive experience, creates all kinds of
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psychological goodness that transcends the rest of
the conversation. It reinforces something that status
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quo bias calls preference stability. Your
the current preference and they would like to
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keep it stable. So do something
to reinforce preference stability. The next move,
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then, is to remind them of
the investment in the effort everybody's made.
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It's called sunk cost. We all
know this concept. Sunk cost fallacy.
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What's not a fallacy. Everybody believes
in it. I've come this far,
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I've made these investments, we've on
board of these people, we've made
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the process changes, we've all accepted
the new nomenclature. You know what the
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heart parts done and you kind of
want to remind them of that. In
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what you're doing is right there.
You're building a little mote around your relationship.
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I call that the the incumbent advantage. The impact you've had in the
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investment that's been made is something you're
outside competitor trying to get in can't even
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touch. So if you neglect that
in your story, you're basically going to
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sound the same as the outside competitors
coming in all talking about your new stuff
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and in reality you've got something they
don't have, which is the incumbent advantage,
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and you should be documenting it,
you should be relaying it and reminding
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them, because they're not sitting around
committing it to memory. You you have
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to actually deliberately reinforce that. Well, I can see a lot of people,
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and I'm probably been guilty of this
myself, having sales and renewal conversations
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that we're just so used to approaching
and delivering something new and challenging the status
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quo that we're doing that in renewal, but the way that you broke it
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down there that basically, if we
do that we're giving up the income and
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advantage that we have, the psychological
and the real advantage that we have,
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because sometimes there are very definitive switching
costs. You know, I saw an
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ad for higher internet speed with a
different provider, you know, for spending
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the same amount. So what did
I do? I called my current provider
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and said, Hey, can you
match it? They they increased my speed,
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didn't increase my price. It still
wasn't as good as the offer I
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saw over here. But I knew
tech visit. I don't know about their
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customer service. I've never had an
outage with my current is ISP. All
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those sorts of switching costs at rattling
around in my head and I'm like,
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well, I'm happy I got closer
to what I saw was available over there
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and I really never had, you
know, any issue. More speed is
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good because I'm a podcaster and I'm
recording video all the time, that sort
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of stuff. So I can speak
from personal experience and we always want to
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learn from BTC examples when we look
at at b Tob Sales and marketing.
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So, Tim we've talked about why
stay. Let's talk about why pay more.
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All right, we figured out we
need to adjust our approach to why
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stay. Now we need to convince
them, either because our prices are going
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up or, you know, whatever
the situation might be. Tell us about
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this moment and what some of the
research has uncovered. Yeah, so when
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we did the renewal study, we
hadn't included a price increase and everybody kind
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of raise your hand said, Whoa, wait, we often discounted to get
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the business and we need to get
some of that margin back. So can
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you? Can you test that again
with the price increase? And we said
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sure, because maybe, just maybe, if you're going to ask for more
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money, maybe you should lead with
the new stuff again. So we thought,
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Hey, let's reinvestigate this provocative lead
with the new because, shoot,
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we're going to ask them for more
money. So we built a story around
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new ask for money and then we
built a story around reinforce your incombent advantage
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ask for money, and we tried
two different tactics. Just ask for the
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straight increase. In this case we
chose four percent on the renewal of the
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contract or set a high target,
eight percent, and then offer a customer
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loyalty discount and state, but that
numbers. For our new customers you only
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have to pay four percent. So
we took advantage of more science there and
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said anchoring is a real thing,
anchored high and then some sort of justification.
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Justifications a huge piece of human decision
making signs. So anchor high with
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a justified discount versus a straight number. So we really tested for conditions.
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We tested that aggressive why change,
everything's new with a straight for or an
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anchored eight reduced for, and then
we tested the why stay method with an
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anchored eight and a straight for.
I hope everybody can follow that without the
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visuals, but the bottom line is
is that Lo and behold, even when
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asking for a price increase, because
you're asking your existing customers. They re
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spawned better, in fact in some
cases twice as much better, than the
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first test where there was no price
increase and you compared it to why change,
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and so in terms of their favorability, they're willingness to pay the price
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increase and renew their likelihood of looking
at competitors. The why stay framework with
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that justified anchored higher price and then
a lower price for you as a customer.
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Crushed the Y change model. So
in a price increase, reminding them
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of the goodness, the progress,
the positive momentum, the investment, the
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effort that's already sunk, and then
ending with and when here's a couple new
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things we're going to do for you
and it's going to cost a little bit
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more, but not as much as
our new people, you get a deal
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because you're a loyal customer. Blew
away the hey, let's lead with what's
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new and then convince them to pay
more. So it really, it really
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doubles down on this idea that that
humans are risk averse when it comes to
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change. And and when you when
you introduce that much change like the other
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model, they and if you introduce
that to your existing customers, are wow,
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jeepers, if I've got to change
that much, there's so much new
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here, I might as will examine
all my options. So if you're if
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your Internet provider, let's go back
to that for a second, if they
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didn't got on the phone and didn't
just make it easy enough for you to
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upgrade your speed and manage your cost, if they said you know what,
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Logan, while we're talking and I've
got these five really cool new things that
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we'd like to try with you and
we'd like to apply, and there this
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and there this and there that,
and and you heard some of the same
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things from your other provider, you
might go you know, this might be
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the right time to change, because
if I've got to change this much,
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if I've got to go through this
much different sort of like absorb this kind
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of change for my current provider,
now might pay the time to evaluate all
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my options. And so you just
made it easier for them to think about
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changing because you introduce so much change. I hope that made sense. So
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instead we always talk about put your
new on the back end of anchoring them
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on the existing and the positive and
the investment and the effort. And you
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get the win on the back end
because the new is still there, but
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it's in the content, comfortable,
safe confines of the contract that they already
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like, the safe confines. Leaning
into some good psychology there as well.
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Tim There's a couple things that that
you said. They're, you know,
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one leading with why stay in and
showing the those advantages as just kind of
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little extra bonus like if it wasn't
enough that we're going to keep you safe,
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we're going to keep things familiar,
all those sorts of things, then
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there is a little bit of bonus
and that does also kind of help you
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with that little bit of price increase. I love what you said. You
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said it multiple times. That justify
discount, just a discount, makes you
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look like a shady sales person or
marketer just saying, Oh, all of
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a sudden we can provide you with
this four percent discount or ten percent discount,
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that that's kind of that it's the
end of the quarter and my deal
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was padded before and now you know
you're getting a better deal on that just
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leads you with kind of that Ikey
feeling. But, like Todd Capone says
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in the transparency cell, when you
relay, Hey, here's the advantage we're
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getting as a business for the discount, you know, a longer term or
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more volume or whatever it is,
or these added benefits. Right, and
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you use price anchoring, which you
know so much other research and studies point
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to as well, then you're you're
headed down the right track. So we've
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talked about why stay, why pay
more? We've got why evolve and why
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forgive. I really want to get
to why forget, but before we do
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that let's talk about why evolved.
What are some situations where this dynamic comes
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into play and how you want to
approach it to him? Yeah, there's
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three situations that our customers tell us
about. So we have a lot of
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customers who need to upgrade or migrate
their customer. So imagine the people who
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have on premise software and things like
that that are moving the the cloud and
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they have these customers just kind of
dragging their feet, and so they're like
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Gee, I need to move them
to the newer version because all of our
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advances, all of our development,
all of our competitive advantages are going to
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go there. And if we don't
get them to the new thing, that's
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going to give the competitor a chance
to come in and teach them about that
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new thing and and so you got
to get them there. So that's one
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then, and then the other is
the add on sale. Sometimes they buy
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the platfor form and they didn't buy
all the ancillary services. And then the
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others the cross cell. You got
my one thing, you should really have
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this other thing. So if you
think of somebody like sales force, you
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bought sales force cloud, you should
buy marketing cloud, you should buy analytics
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cloud, you should buy this cloud. That cloud mayby to Bobby Bou classes
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like Amazon does. Hey, you
bought a mop, you probably need a
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bucket. You probably need a sponge. Right, right, exactly. So
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all of those we can. We'd
bucket. No Pun intended, I guess.
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Under this idea of why evolved.
Why do more with why? Continue
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to expand the relationship? And what
we found there is, interestingly, we
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thought again, Hey, maybe when
we're trying to ask him to do something
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that new, like move from on
Prem to the cloud or, you know,
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buy this extra ancillary thing or buy
this adjacent cross cell thing, maybe
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then we should go back to the
why change? Why now, more provocative
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sort of sale, because guess what
we're trying to go after? Maybe new
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money or new services, new,
new, New News, so I should
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act like it's new. And so
we dead we tested that and we tested
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the why change, why now story
against the y stay story with some of
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these advantages on the back end,
and then we built a hypothetical hybrid model
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that we said let's couch it in
the partnership and relationship, but let's spike
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it with some of the emotional language
of of the why change story and just
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to test it. And what we
did, as we opened again, with
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documenting results and being able to demonstrate
positive impact. Because here's what we found
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is I'm more loyal or I'm more
willing to investigate potentially some additional things from
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you if I feel that I've had
some success with you. And even if
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you're like jumping over to another product
line that they're using a competitor on,
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you still leverage your incumbent advantage because
it put you on each at least equal
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footing with your competitor, as opposed
to jumping out and acting like a competitor,
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act like another incumbent and and say, okay, here's what we've done
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over here and look, we've had
success in your organization and have had some
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results in your organizations, so we
know how to operate your environment. Oh,
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by the way, from our seat
we've been able to observe over there.
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We've seen some things, we've heard
some things and all of a sudden
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we got inside information. And then
you go and we work with a lot
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of companies like you and those same
areas. So now you have outside information.
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So the best part of the Y
evolve is you're bringing the internal perspective
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as an incumbent and you observe these
things in the other areas. Couple that
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with the external view of working with
other companies like them in those new areas
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and now you've got this intersection,
this perspective, where they then kind of
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lean in and and we talked about
being able to now share hard truths.
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Hard truths is that ability to share
something provocative, but in the context of
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we've done some good things for you, were invested with you and let's just
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take an objective look with you as
we compare our internal findings with our external
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knowledge and see what that shows.
And then when they see those hard truths
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about a missed opportunity or potential problem, you share the risk of no change
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and the value of change. You
give them options, because at this point
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you're just a friendly you're inside and
you're giving them some advice and and you
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show them both options. So now
what did you see? You saw some
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partnership. Piece of it the reinforcement
of stats que bias and he so just
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enough emotional language and provocation embedded in
it. So I call it a hybrid
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model. Why evolved needs to do
both the relational thing and the emotional thing,
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and so we've got a very specific
model. We tested it and once
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again it beat why change why now
hands down. So it proves that in
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existing customers, even when you have
to go after new budget, new money,
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you act like an incumbent and you
put things in context of your relationship,
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even if it's a new buyer,
decisionmaker. We discovered. So,
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yeah, important finding there is not
to panic if there's an incumbent. You
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just act like you're also an incumbent, because why would you give up any
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of that ground and try and act
like an outsider? There's just no value
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that. Hey, everybody logan with
sweet fish here. If you've been listening
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to the show for a while,
you know we're big proponents of putting out
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original, organic content on linked but
one thing that's always been a struggle for
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a team like ours is to easily
track the reach of that Linkedin con it.
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00:19:25.460 --> 00:19:27.660
That's why I was really excited when
I heard about shield the other day
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from a connection on you guessed it
linked in. Since our team started using
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shield, I've loved how it's let
us easily track and analyze the performance of
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00:19:37.900 --> 00:19:42.690
our linkedin content without having to manually
log it ourselves. It automatically creates reports
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00:19:42.769 --> 00:19:48.450
and generates some dashboards that are incredibly
useful to see things like what content has
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00:19:48.529 --> 00:19:51.609
been performing the best and what days
of the week are we getting the most
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00:19:51.609 --> 00:19:56.680
engagement and our average views proposed.
I'd highly suggest you guys check out this
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00:19:56.759 --> 00:20:00.079
tool if you're putting out content on
Linkedin, and if you're not, you
286
00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.200
should be. It's been a game
changer for us. If you go to
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00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:07.589
shield APP DOT AI and check out
the ten day free trial, you can
288
00:20:07.670 --> 00:20:11.789
even use our promo code be to
be growth to get a twenty five percent
289
00:20:11.910 --> 00:20:15.990
discount. Again, that's shield APP
DOT AI and that Promo Code is be
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00:20:17.390 --> 00:20:21.390
the number to be growth. All
one word. All right, let's get
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back to the show. That's what
I keep coming back to and what you
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said earlier and not giving up your
incumbent advantage. In one of the ways
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that you can do that. You
mentioned pointing out your inside knowledge. Hey,
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we've already worked with Tom and the
IT team and and you know these
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individuals and point that out. You
know, drop the names that your competitors
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don't know and show your inside knowledge, but don't just say pit that against
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Hey. Well, they're saying they're
here and all this stuff out in the
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market and this and that. Combined
the two together so that you have one
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to punch, where the nonincumbents only
have that one jab and and you're going
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to you're going to outlast them.
So I like that. Let's talk about
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why forgive. This is really interesting
to me, Tim because I think there
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are a lot of folks who get
this wrong, personally, professionally, but
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obviously we're talking in the context of
BB sales here. You know, a
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couple of things. I've been thinking
about this recently. I read never split
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the difference a couple of times a
negotiation. Chris Voss talks about an accusation
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audit as a strategy. There will
link to one of those episodes here in
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the show notes. The other thing
that I hear a lot is, well,
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this and this and this and this
and this, but and then come
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all your excuses for the reasons that
you know you're having to apologize, and
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to me you know that, but
cancels out everything that came before it.
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So anyway, those are a couple
of my thoughts. Let's hear with the
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research actually has to say about how
you approach these? Why forgive moments to
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him? Yeah, so I want
to be clear. This isn't what we
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tested. Is Not the moment when
somebody calls you up in their hair is
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on fire and your you know,
I'm sorry. Now let me get to
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this, because what you're going to
hear in the winning apology framework is that
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the first thing you don't say is
open with the the softer apology. In
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fact, the thing you open with
is what's called the offer to repair.
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What happens is, in in a
service breakdown or a problem, the thing
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that causes people to feel more positive
about you is that you've documented and memorialized
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the plan. And I always joke
that when you go to a renewal or
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sometime later, people will only maybe
remember the hair on fire moment until you
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document the part where you really made
it better. And what we've discovered is
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it's something called the service recovery paradox, and we might know this from B
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to c. If you recover well
from a service problem, you can actually
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get higher loyalty and more satisfaction because
you got on everybody's radar and you did
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something awesome in response, even though
you were part of the problem, versus
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if you just kind of puttered along
and it came to renewal and everything.
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Like we work with them, do
you? What? Do you write right?
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But yeah, like, I don't
know, seems to work. So
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we know this works and now it's
been proven in D to be but the
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point is what they say in B
tob is like, at the moment you're
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back, they're trying to renew or
do more. They have to be able
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to look at something that refreshes them
on all you did, and it turns
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out that the first thing they need
to hear isn't I'm sorry, the first
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thing they need to read, seeing
here, as they circulate this, is
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here's the offer to repair, which
says here's what we've done to now hear
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me on this. This is important
to restore the perception of lost value.
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There's something in the psychology of fairness
and justice, and when a problem happens,
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people believe that this fairness exchange has
been violated and they need justice to
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happen. And so the opening of
a great apology that is documented and memorialized
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is here's the offer to repair.
We're going to do this and we're providing
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these resources at no extra charge.
We're going to add a few months onto
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your contract for any lost time,
and you know this is quadruple any of
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the time that was lost. And
and it what it is is it's restoring
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fairness and the and the perceived lost
value. And it's almost like they can't
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hear your apology until they know that
justice has been done in fairness has been
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restored and and what we found is
that the best place for the real I'm
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sorry part is the closing. There's
some things in between where you you demonstrate
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we understand what the problem is.
You explain all the fixes you've put in
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place, because they're like, okay, gotta know you know what it was
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and got to feel like you've got
it covered and here's the things we're going
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to do to mitigate it and prevent
it going forward. That's great. That's
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all in the middle, but on
the front end is the offer to repair
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and replace the perception of lost value
and on the back end, the exit,
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the Outro, is all the sorry
and the losing formula. Had those
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flipped. Yeah, so parents,
saying you're sorry at the beginning and then
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going through the explanations of what you
did to fix it and then ending with
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okay, and here's how we're going
to restore the value had the exact opposite
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effect. In fact, of all
the test conditions we tested, the worst
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performing test condition was the one that
opened with sorry and ended with offer to
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repair. The best performing was the
one that opened with offer to repair and
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closed with sorry. and which you
need to know in our test is we
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use the exact same words. We
built the words for each of these sections
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and we just put them in different
orders. So the exact same words were
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said, but the order made all
the difference by magnitudes, double digit increases
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in willingness to buy, advocate,
you know, satisfaction, and so just
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getting the words in the wrong order
could completely blow your apology. So we
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were so excited, to be honest, when we found that finding and it
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was so consistent, so powerful across
multiple tests, large audiences and many test
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conditions. Are Scientists who work with
us. We use outside scientists for this
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stuff at Stanford in the states and
work business school outside London. They were
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like amazed that when you put that
many people through it, use that many
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test conditions to get one right answer
Oh and, by the way, they
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were the same words, just different
order. They're like, I was amazing.
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So what I would tell you is, if anybody needs to document apologies,
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I am extremely confident in this framework. Yeah, it goes to show
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something that I've talked about for salespeople
in the past. What do we typically
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do? Like right now we're in
the middle of the covid nineteen pandemic,
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and so what are a lot of
sales people doing? They're putting that hey,
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hope you're staying safe healthy, your
family's doing great. Then boom the
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rest of their normal pitch right.
Well, one, there's got to be
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a little bit more finesse than that. But to I've seen this before with
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just when you're not in the middle
of trying to message within a pandemic,
385
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where where you switch things right,
if I reached out to you said hate
386
00:26:48.549 --> 00:26:52.430
Tim I really think we should talk
because of X Y Z, that a
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by the way, I hope you're
staying safe and saying I've been using my
388
00:26:56.150 --> 00:27:00.990
smart speaker to play nature sounds and
keep me calm. One, you're going
389
00:27:00.029 --> 00:27:03.900
to remember the last thing said and
to it's not that. Hey, I
390
00:27:04.019 --> 00:27:07.019
put that thing at the bottom that
seems like a pleasantry, but when I
391
00:27:07.180 --> 00:27:11.140
took the time to do it at
the end, as opposed to the beginning,
392
00:27:11.460 --> 00:27:15.140
it no longer seems like a pleasantry. It seems like I have invested
393
00:27:15.259 --> 00:27:19.210
that time into that personalization and that, you know, heartfelt thought. And
394
00:27:19.410 --> 00:27:22.890
same thing here with the apology.
When you save it for the end,
395
00:27:22.890 --> 00:27:26.450
it's more memorable and to you.
Didn't just say it because you had to
396
00:27:26.529 --> 00:27:29.450
say it to get on too.
Well, let's just deal with your problem.
397
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Right. It has the opposite effects. So I've seen it in other
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cases and I love that your research
is backing this up. That man.
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I mean the positive thing here is
you're probably doing the right things, you're
400
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:41.960
just doing them in the wrong order. So a slight change can can make
401
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:45.549
some dramatic impacts. Right. Yeah, well, back to our journalism training.
402
00:27:45.630 --> 00:27:49.950
Often I buried the lead and they
did write paragraph off and they're like
403
00:27:51.109 --> 00:27:53.829
see that paragraph, the second or
that's the news. So I've pretty much
404
00:27:53.829 --> 00:27:57.470
learned to every time to write and
then take the first paragraph off and I
405
00:27:57.549 --> 00:28:00.740
have a better I have a better
story. But yes, people here and
406
00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:06.579
remember first and last. And if
your first are sounding like everybody else is,
407
00:28:06.619 --> 00:28:10.299
which they do anymore these days.
You start to dismiss them because you're
408
00:28:10.299 --> 00:28:11.180
like, well, IE, over, this is going you know. You
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say something a little bit different.
That connects with me, especially in an
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apology that restores fairness and value.
I'm I all right, dude, I
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00:28:19.809 --> 00:28:22.490
got my pound of flesh. Now
I'm willing to listen to the rest of
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it. And then, as you
exit on an apologetic note, you like
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that that was awesome. They got
it, they understood, they they felt
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my pain. So it's interesting.
There's so much psychology involved. We all
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have good intentions when we try things. And in sales, I like to
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say this, in the world now
there's we say, all we got so
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00:28:42.670 --> 00:28:48.230
much data, so much data,
we just need a few more crystallized theory
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00:28:48.789 --> 00:28:52.029
based on the data. In sales
we have way too many theories and not
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enough data. And when we come
at it from an angle of data and
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say here, here is a data
driven theory, not just an opinion.
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00:29:00.500 --> 00:29:04.299
Or someone examined folklore or I had
some personal experience, what we found in
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00:29:04.420 --> 00:29:07.579
the research? This is real quick
on the apology is when I showed the
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five test conditions in any room,
I'm in unanimous not unanimously. I would
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00:29:12.170 --> 00:29:15.529
say seventy to eighty percent of the
room picks like condition number four. It's
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00:29:15.529 --> 00:29:18.369
not even important that you know what
that condition was, but there seems to
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00:29:18.450 --> 00:29:22.049
be an obvious winner. That's the
one that takes last place, and I
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00:29:22.289 --> 00:29:26.680
love that moment because what it says
is you have good intentions but not the
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00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:30.119
right instincts, that the human brain
works in a slightly counterintuitive way than what
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00:29:30.279 --> 00:29:34.480
we think or want to believe,
and so you got to do these experiments
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00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:38.910
to get it right, because your
good intentions are not always right, even
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00:29:38.950 --> 00:29:44.309
if they're good intentions in terms of
getting the outcome you're looking for. Yeah,
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00:29:44.390 --> 00:29:48.509
absolutely, Man, it makes me
really sad to see bad email copy,
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00:29:48.670 --> 00:29:51.829
bad messaging, which is the best
of intentions as I read through it.
434
00:29:51.869 --> 00:29:55.619
Maybe that's just the journalistic editor in
me that I'm always slicing and diicing
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00:29:56.059 --> 00:29:59.980
emails and plus some the host of
a sales and marketing podcast. But,
436
00:30:00.180 --> 00:30:03.380
tim this has been a fantastic conversation. I feel like you and I could
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00:30:03.380 --> 00:30:07.099
riff on things all day long,
especially with the research that that you bring
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00:30:07.210 --> 00:30:08.809
to bear on this. If,
for the sake of time, I do
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00:30:08.930 --> 00:30:12.569
want to wrap things here. For
folks who are taken notes here. These
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00:30:12.690 --> 00:30:18.809
four pivotal moments that you have to
manage correctly. Why stay? Why pay
441
00:30:18.930 --> 00:30:22.400
more? Why evolve and why forgive
Tim this has been a great conversation.
442
00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:26.519
As we've talked about throughout this conversation, you guys have dug into a lot
443
00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.480
of research here. If folks want
to take next steps, look at some
444
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:33.839
examples, look at some research of
all this stuff. Where's the best place
445
00:30:33.960 --> 00:30:37.390
for them to either reach out to
you, stay connected or find more of
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00:30:37.509 --> 00:30:40.470
this research and some of the things
you guys have been doing. Yeah,
447
00:30:40.470 --> 00:30:44.630
absolutely well. The book is on
Amazon, of course, at the expansion
448
00:30:44.670 --> 00:30:47.670
sale, and we're please that for
the first three weeks it was out it
449
00:30:47.829 --> 00:30:51.980
was the number one best seller in
sales and marketing and customer relations. So
450
00:30:52.180 --> 00:30:55.819
we know we've hit a nerve.
But corporate visions is the company, corporate
451
00:30:55.859 --> 00:31:00.299
VISIONSCOM, and go to our research
tab you'll find an ebook on the fore
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00:31:00.339 --> 00:31:04.609
must win moments. So think of
it as the Reader's digest if anybody remembers
453
00:31:04.690 --> 00:31:08.769
that. No, I don't know
if maybe remembers that. Considered the abridged
454
00:31:08.809 --> 00:31:11.730
version of our book. So golph
notes, cliff notes works that's good.
455
00:31:11.809 --> 00:31:17.329
Still remember that. Okay. So
corporate VISIONSCOM. Go to the research tab
456
00:31:17.490 --> 00:31:21.319
and you'll see that we have webcast
on this. We have free ebooks,
457
00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:23.519
so a lot of free resources to
get you started. Read more about the
458
00:31:23.559 --> 00:31:27.319
studies, see the different examples.
You can compare and contrast and see the
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00:31:27.400 --> 00:31:32.400
winning formulas which you can then follow. Awesome, Tim, this has been
460
00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:36.150
a great conversation. Thank you for
sharing those will will point listeners to some
461
00:31:36.230 --> 00:31:38.910
follow up resources in the show notes. They're definitely want to check out.
462
00:31:38.910 --> 00:31:44.190
Corporate VISIONSCOM. Go to the research
tab if you like getting into a lot
463
00:31:44.230 --> 00:31:47.859
of this psychology around be tob sales
and marketing. There a couple episodes I
464
00:31:47.900 --> 00:31:52.740
did with Chris Voss, former FBI
hostage negotiator, you can check out in
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00:31:52.859 --> 00:31:56.740
the show notes, and todd capony
over on the BB sales show if you're
466
00:31:56.779 --> 00:32:00.980
not yet subscribed to that show.
As usual here on BB growth we're talking
467
00:32:00.059 --> 00:32:04.650
sales and marketing, all sales,
all the time. is happening over on
468
00:32:04.769 --> 00:32:08.730
the BB sales show. That episode
does transparency sell better than perfection with Todd
469
00:32:08.769 --> 00:32:12.490
capony. Will Link to that in
the show notes as well. Tim.
470
00:32:12.690 --> 00:32:15.720
Thank you again for the research and
everything you've put into this book and the
471
00:32:15.799 --> 00:32:17.880
prep you did for today's interview.
Thank you for joining me on the show.
472
00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:22.759
Logan, thanks for having me.
Appreciate your interest. I hate it
473
00:32:22.839 --> 00:32:28.000
when podcasts incessantly ask their listeners for
reviews, but I get why they do
474
00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:31.150
it, because reviews are enormously helpful
when you're trying to grow a podcast audience.
475
00:32:31.509 --> 00:32:35.230
So here's what we decided to do. If you leave a review for
476
00:32:35.349 --> 00:32:38.349
be tob growth and apple podcasts and
email me a screenshot of the review to
477
00:32:38.470 --> 00:32:43.390
James at Sweet Fish Mediacom, I'll
send you a signed copy of my new
478
00:32:43.470 --> 00:32:46.180
book, content based networking, how
to instantly connect with anyone you want to
479
00:32:46.299 --> 00:32:50.500
know. We get a review,
you get a free book. We both
480
00:32:50.539 -->
win.