Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.519 --> 00:00:09.470 Welcome back to BEDB growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media. Today 2 00:00:09.509 --> 00:00:14.109 I'm joined by David Preemer. He's the founder and chief sales scientist at cerebral 3 00:00:14.189 --> 00:00:17.910 selling and author of sell the way you buy. David, welcome to the 4 00:00:17.949 --> 00:00:20.190 show. How's it going today? Oh, it's great, Logan, thanks 5 00:00:20.230 --> 00:00:23.579 for having me. Absolutely we're going to be talking about how a lot of 6 00:00:23.739 --> 00:00:29.300 sales reps get selling value all wrong today. For a little bit of context 7 00:00:29.539 --> 00:00:32.780 into why you're the guy talking about this, give us a little bit of 8 00:00:33.020 --> 00:00:37.409 your background and in sales and what led you to write the book that we're 9 00:00:37.409 --> 00:00:40.450 going to be pulling some of these nuggets out of for the conversation today. 10 00:00:40.770 --> 00:00:43.649 Yeah, I mean so, like most people who end up in professional sales 11 00:00:43.729 --> 00:00:46.969 careers, I got into sales by accidents. You ever and has their story 12 00:00:47.090 --> 00:00:50.200 know when no one gets into this on purpose. I started my career as 13 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:53.799 a research scientist over twenty years ago and got into sales by accident. At 14 00:00:53.840 --> 00:00:57.000 the turn of the dotcom boom, I actually joined a start up as a 15 00:00:57.079 --> 00:01:00.520 sales engineer. So shout out to all the sales and solution engineers out there. 16 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:03.960 Everyone thinks you got to get into sales being like a Dr str but 17 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:07.629 my entree was through the the solution consulting ranks. Ended up falling in love 18 00:01:07.670 --> 00:01:12.189 with sales because I realize sales is not unlike engineering. There's you know, 19 00:01:12.269 --> 00:01:17.829 there's there's a their systems and variables and the reasons why things happen. So 20 00:01:17.909 --> 00:01:21.700 I just fell in love and over the next twenty years spent my time across 21 00:01:21.739 --> 00:01:25.260 four amazing high growth tech startups. Three of them got acquired, one, 22 00:01:25.299 --> 00:01:27.060 which they helped start in two thousand and eight, was acquired by sales force 23 00:01:27.459 --> 00:01:30.340 and came over with the ship. SPENT, I've awesome years it sales force, 24 00:01:30.739 --> 00:01:36.689 seeing how the machine was built operationally and culturally at scale, run small 25 00:01:36.730 --> 00:01:40.530 business sales for the eastern US sales force before going on to start up number 26 00:01:40.569 --> 00:01:42.769 four. But through all of that time, as I was falling in love 27 00:01:42.810 --> 00:01:46.650 with sales and leaving teams, you know, I realized that, you know, 28 00:01:46.849 --> 00:01:49.840 people love to buy stuff but they hate talking to sales people and it 29 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:53.480 kind of bothered me that this was the my my profession that I fell into, 30 00:01:53.560 --> 00:01:57.519 that I fell in love with and I love. But when you tell 31 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:00.430 someone you're in sales, it's like you're the enemy by default, and that 32 00:02:00.549 --> 00:02:04.950 bothered me. And I realize that, as a VP of sales who is 33 00:02:05.030 --> 00:02:07.949 being prospected into all the time, a lot of the tactics that my team 34 00:02:08.030 --> 00:02:10.949 was using were the same ones that other reps were using to prospect and to 35 00:02:12.030 --> 00:02:14.189 me, and they weren't working. So I said, well, it's got 36 00:02:14.229 --> 00:02:16.659 to be a better way, and so I've been been writing and doing research 37 00:02:16.699 --> 00:02:21.099 and just kind of being a student of sales for so many years. I 38 00:02:21.219 --> 00:02:23.060 decided, after all this time, that there's nothing I could do better with 39 00:02:23.180 --> 00:02:25.979 the second half of my career than teach the art and science of modern selling, 40 00:02:27.020 --> 00:02:30.009 which is what I do now in my practice. Yeah, it's such 41 00:02:30.009 --> 00:02:32.930 a sad reality. I think it might have been John Barrows. I can't 42 00:02:32.930 --> 00:02:37.969 remember who it was, but someone was mentioning being in a room full of 43 00:02:38.169 --> 00:02:42.930 salespeople and saying how many of you want to talk to a salesperson? We're 44 00:02:42.969 --> 00:02:47.319 talking to people who live and breathe sales and our professional sellers themselves, and 45 00:02:47.719 --> 00:02:51.240 most of them would not put up their hand and say, Hey, I 46 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:54.280 look forward to that disco call, I look forward to being on the other 47 00:02:54.319 --> 00:02:59.430 side of that demo and that points to there being something wrong. So, 48 00:02:59.909 --> 00:03:04.069 as we dive into the conversation today, David, about really selling value, 49 00:03:04.110 --> 00:03:07.349 you unpacked us a little bit in your book and also in a blog post 50 00:03:07.389 --> 00:03:13.620 that I recently checked out about value in Roy not being the same. And 51 00:03:13.659 --> 00:03:17.500 there's actually a story about the seven, seven seven Burger that unpacks this a 52 00:03:17.580 --> 00:03:21.819 little bit and I love a good story. So tus up with that man. 53 00:03:22.500 --> 00:03:24.180 Yeah, you know what, in sales people are conditioned, often by 54 00:03:24.219 --> 00:03:28.849 our leadership, to sell value. Go sell value, sell value. But 55 00:03:29.009 --> 00:03:32.210 really, when leaders say sell value, they mean like sell Roi. Meaning 56 00:03:32.250 --> 00:03:35.810 I want to go to the customer and say, if you spend money with 57 00:03:35.930 --> 00:03:39.090 me today, then you will either make money more than you're spending or you're 58 00:03:39.090 --> 00:03:42.759 going to save money to the extent and more than you're spending. Right. 59 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:45.680 So there's a return there, and so they're saying sell value. But the 60 00:03:45.800 --> 00:03:47.840 reality is, when we think about selling the way we buy and how we 61 00:03:49.039 --> 00:03:51.439 buy or this is kind of where the concept of the book came from, 62 00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:54.360 it's like we don't buy our lie, like most of the time, like 63 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:58.750 if I were to ask you to write down everything you ordered for lunch in 64 00:03:58.870 --> 00:04:00.069 the last month, okay, and then I said I'm going to take that 65 00:04:00.110 --> 00:04:02.310 list, I'm going to show it to your doctor and I'm going to ask 66 00:04:02.349 --> 00:04:06.069 your doctor what percentage of the time to Logan or maybe you super healthy guy. 67 00:04:06.150 --> 00:04:09.909 Mean sometimes I choose the wrong people. But you know you're shaking your 68 00:04:09.949 --> 00:04:13.180 head. So what percentage of the time did you order the right thing or 69 00:04:13.219 --> 00:04:15.779 make the best thing for you? And I say best calorically food groups. 70 00:04:15.939 --> 00:04:18.660 You know, what would you portion side? What would you write right? 71 00:04:18.779 --> 00:04:23.740 All those things? Probably not a very high percentage of the time. I've 72 00:04:23.779 --> 00:04:27.370 got a bit of a sweet tooth and so I would say emotion is a 73 00:04:27.410 --> 00:04:30.089 big driver, especially right now. Some of us are stress eating a little 74 00:04:30.129 --> 00:04:32.569 bit. I'm, you know, going to raise my hand a little bit. 75 00:04:32.730 --> 00:04:35.250 So yeah, I'm tracking right with you, David. And Look, 76 00:04:35.250 --> 00:04:38.800 you know being in sale, sales is a tough job. So a lot 77 00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:41.319 of times that you get home at the end of a long day or at 78 00:04:41.319 --> 00:04:43.279 the end of the like. Imagine it's the end of the month, end 79 00:04:43.279 --> 00:04:45.199 of the quarter, and you say, you know what, I know, 80 00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:47.720 I tried really you know what I deserve right, and you usually fill in 81 00:04:47.800 --> 00:04:50.600 that blank with something that's not good for you. Kay. Let's just it's 82 00:04:50.759 --> 00:04:53.949 like a drink, a pizza, beer, whatever it is, it's not 83 00:04:54.069 --> 00:04:57.389 good for you. And so we end up making these decisions based on feelings. 84 00:04:57.470 --> 00:05:01.110 And so when I say self value, value is a discretionary feeling. 85 00:05:01.189 --> 00:05:06.459 Roi Is an objective financial statistic. And so when we say sell value, 86 00:05:06.500 --> 00:05:11.019 what we should really be meaning to say it's like sell feelings. And the 87 00:05:11.100 --> 00:05:14.540 story you mentioned was the story of the triple seven Burger, which is a 88 00:05:14.819 --> 00:05:19.220 menu item in the and a restaurant called the Burger Brasserie in a semi I'm 89 00:05:19.259 --> 00:05:24.490 Canadians, my French is pretty good, in the Paris Hotel in Las Vegas, 90 00:05:24.569 --> 00:05:28.209 and it's like seven hundred and seventy seven dollars and it's a burger with 91 00:05:28.290 --> 00:05:30.850 all of these crazy, you know, exorbitant topping Frog Wi, you know, 92 00:05:31.290 --> 00:05:35.639 hundred ages balsamic vinegar and and all these crazy cheeses and stuff, and 93 00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:39.720 it comes with like a bottle of wine. And you see this on a 94 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:44.120 menu and you're like who the hell orders this? Like this kind of menu 95 00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:49.029 items should actually not exist in the world, and yet it does and people 96 00:05:49.149 --> 00:05:53.230 order it, and so you're thinking yourself like why would someone order it, 97 00:05:53.310 --> 00:05:57.389 and the reason is because this is something that they felt like, that they 98 00:05:57.709 --> 00:06:00.829 value, and we all have the not going to oute you, but you 99 00:06:00.910 --> 00:06:02.589 know and ask you. But like, think about something you spend money on, 100 00:06:02.709 --> 00:06:05.220 Logan, that someone else would take a look at. If you're listening 101 00:06:05.220 --> 00:06:09.540 to this thin about something you spend money on that another person would look at 102 00:06:09.579 --> 00:06:14.379 and say that's ridiculous. Right, Yep, absolutely. We've all have those 103 00:06:14.459 --> 00:06:16.100 different things, right, and that's where, you know, the conversation, 104 00:06:16.259 --> 00:06:19.009 you have to kind of pause yourself, like when you want to say, 105 00:06:19.370 --> 00:06:23.329 Hey, man, that's ridiculous. Well, wait, what do I have? 106 00:06:23.610 --> 00:06:27.449 And then quickly something else POPs to minds completely different. Right. I'm 107 00:06:27.490 --> 00:06:30.170 not a car guy, I think, you know, spending money on certain 108 00:06:30.250 --> 00:06:33.759 things and bells and whistles and fancy cars, just like why would? Why 109 00:06:33.759 --> 00:06:36.759 would you do that? But I've got my other things, right, I'm 110 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:40.079 a little bit of a tech head. I'm a little bit, you know, 111 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:43.639 I nerd out on the newest tech and that sort of stuff. So, 112 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:46.560 yeah, totally tracking with you still, man. Yeah, look, 113 00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:48.709 so that's you buy things based on what you value, and so the real 114 00:06:48.790 --> 00:06:53.829 question is you're trying to sell someone something you have to ask yourself, what 115 00:06:53.990 --> 00:06:57.389 is this person value? And you might make an assumption based on, Oh, 116 00:06:57.389 --> 00:06:59.790 you're the VP of sales at such and such a company. You probably 117 00:06:59.829 --> 00:07:02.220 have these problemses what you value. But imagine, you know, like what's 118 00:07:02.300 --> 00:07:05.660 going on. You know now and in times of crisis, you know, 119 00:07:05.660 --> 00:07:11.060 if you were selling, for example, face masks. Okay, like governments 120 00:07:11.100 --> 00:07:14.339 are buying face masking. You. I. I often wonder when the speed 121 00:07:14.379 --> 00:07:16.529 wage governments and hospitals are buying all of this, you know, equipment. 122 00:07:16.850 --> 00:07:20.769 Are they negotiating? Are they like driving for like a hard price, or 123 00:07:20.889 --> 00:07:26.209 is it just that they value getting this so quickly and getting into the hands 124 00:07:26.250 --> 00:07:28.769 of people who need it? That actually, like it doesn't really matter what 125 00:07:28.889 --> 00:07:31.000 they're paying, like the the wallets are open. So what they value now 126 00:07:31.279 --> 00:07:36.160 is is not what you would necessarily expect a hospital administrator buying equipment for their 127 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:40.800 team to value under normal circumstances. But the reality is there's no such thing 128 00:07:40.800 --> 00:07:45.110 as normal circumstances. We all have, you know, these idiosyncrasies and even, 129 00:07:45.149 --> 00:07:46.470 for example, let's say, like if I had a fire in my 130 00:07:46.589 --> 00:07:49.430 house and now I got to get, you know, smoke detectors and so 131 00:07:49.589 --> 00:07:53.949 on, or like more fire suppressing, like all of a sudden the wallets 132 00:07:53.949 --> 00:07:58.189 are open. I value safety over money, right. Or let's say I 133 00:07:58.579 --> 00:08:01.860 just had a failed project to my company. I might value a vendor who 134 00:08:01.899 --> 00:08:05.300 charges more, but I know we'll get the job done. Like, no 135 00:08:05.420 --> 00:08:11.300 one got fired for buying. IBM exists because of value. Yeah, absolutely, 136 00:08:11.459 --> 00:08:16.689 and it's you know, there's this common misconception that be to be buying 137 00:08:16.009 --> 00:08:20.610 is is not about emotion. Right, because there are procurement departments and there 138 00:08:20.649 --> 00:08:26.449 are buying committees and all of these sorts of things to make it standardized and 139 00:08:26.649 --> 00:08:31.480 very logical. But let's take another example. I love examples that you're thrown 140 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:33.960 out, so I'm going to keep going down that trail with you. If 141 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:39.320 I buy something on Amazon one I can return it very easily, even amidst 142 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:43.110 all of this. So hats off to them for keeping up with amazing return 143 00:08:43.629 --> 00:08:46.429 just customer experience. But let's say I can't return it and it's, you 144 00:08:46.549 --> 00:08:52.269 know, five dollar deoderant or whatever. Right, I'm out five bucks. 145 00:08:52.549 --> 00:08:56.700 Right, but if I sign up for a new sales enablement software for my 146 00:08:58.019 --> 00:09:01.779 sales team, it's not my money that I'm out, but if and if 147 00:09:01.899 --> 00:09:05.659 I didn't. Maybe I didn't make the decision by myself, but I was 148 00:09:05.779 --> 00:09:09.059 the primary sponsor who said this is what we need, this is the vendor 149 00:09:09.059 --> 00:09:13.769 we should select. That could have some serious career implications if you were the 150 00:09:13.889 --> 00:09:18.250 one leading that, quote unquote, wrong decision. So how is there not 151 00:09:18.450 --> 00:09:22.570 emotion tied up in that? And so I think as sellers it's about uncovering 152 00:09:22.850 --> 00:09:28.480 what does the buyer value? What is important to them in this situation? 153 00:09:28.240 --> 00:09:31.960 Emotionally, logically, I'm going to put air quotes around that as well. 154 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:37.240 So what are some of the the steps for sellers who are starting to realize 155 00:09:37.279 --> 00:09:41.549 this, David, where you coach them on to on uncovering how do they 156 00:09:41.629 --> 00:09:46.389 sell value as the buyer perceives it? Going back to the name of your 157 00:09:46.429 --> 00:09:50.070 book, sell the way that you buy or you are buyers are going to 158 00:09:50.190 --> 00:09:52.940 buy. Yeah, well, so selling the way by. There's kind of 159 00:09:52.980 --> 00:09:56.100 two pieces to it. There's this empathetic component, which is just don't use, 160 00:09:56.179 --> 00:09:58.779 you know, simply don't use tactics that wouldn't work on you. And 161 00:09:58.940 --> 00:10:01.220 and I would be in the situation at ton where my reps would come to 162 00:10:01.259 --> 00:10:03.100 me at sales for as other companies and would be like David, customers gone 163 00:10:03.100 --> 00:10:07.809 dark. We're looking to reinvigorate the deal. I'm looking to send this email 164 00:10:07.850 --> 00:10:09.009 to them. You know what, can you read it? Let me know 165 00:10:09.049 --> 00:10:11.529 what you think, and I would read it and I would say like, 166 00:10:11.570 --> 00:10:13.490 I don't know, Logan, like what do you think? If you're the 167 00:10:13.570 --> 00:10:15.889 customer, would you respond to this? and they would smile and kind of 168 00:10:15.929 --> 00:10:18.649 be like no, I'll try again. So there's an empathetic component to these 169 00:10:18.730 --> 00:10:22.639 tactics, but there's also like the pathways by which we make purchasing decisions. 170 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:28.720 Like that's a really important factor which is often something it's not taken into consideration 171 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:31.759 when we cry after sales motion. One of the easiest ways that I coach 172 00:10:31.879 --> 00:10:37.669 people, when I talk about how to connect with customers emotionally, is instead 173 00:10:37.710 --> 00:10:43.190 of leading with the the solution or even the benefits, lead with the problem. 174 00:10:43.230 --> 00:10:46.029 Lead with the problem, because people you need to fall in love with 175 00:10:46.149 --> 00:10:50.580 the problem. The customer will have an emotional reaction to the problem. And 176 00:10:50.700 --> 00:10:54.500 you even actually said at the beginning you know, you mentioned, you know, 177 00:10:54.580 --> 00:10:56.580 this idea of do you ever like yet you do, you like talking 178 00:10:56.620 --> 00:10:58.700 to sales people. Hey, sales people out there. You like talking to 179 00:10:58.740 --> 00:11:03.419 sales people. It's no, no coincidence that on my website, like the 180 00:11:03.580 --> 00:11:05.970 what is the front copy say? Do you ever wonder why you don't like 181 00:11:07.129 --> 00:11:09.929 talking to sales people? Now, my website is geared to sales people. 182 00:11:09.970 --> 00:11:13.690 It's not geared to like ret regular you know, every doctors and accountants. 183 00:11:13.730 --> 00:11:16.450 It's to sales people and sales later. So why would I say that? 184 00:11:16.570 --> 00:11:20.080 It's because I have a hunch, and there's data to support from research, 185 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:22.559 that people don't like talking to sales people. And so when you read that, 186 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:26.399 if you're a salesperson, you're like, hold on a second, yeah, 187 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:28.759 I don't like talking to sales people. I've led with the problem and 188 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:33.549 now you're going to lean in and you're going to say, tell me more 189 00:11:33.590 --> 00:11:35.190 about this, like what is this? And I'll tell you. In all 190 00:11:35.429 --> 00:11:41.029 the years of doing this training sales teams, no customer asks to see my 191 00:11:41.830 --> 00:11:46.110 deck, my training presentation. Before I get when you think like isn't that 192 00:11:46.220 --> 00:11:50.379 what they're buying? Some dude gets up and like shares a deck and walkster 193 00:11:50.539 --> 00:11:52.500 training and helps their team, but no one says, David, you before 194 00:11:52.539 --> 00:11:56.019 we make this decision, I want to see the deck, because what they're 195 00:11:56.059 --> 00:12:00.500 buying is the is the the emotional connection to the problem, and so I 196 00:12:00.580 --> 00:12:03.450 always say, like, find who your customers enemy is. Leave with that 197 00:12:03.610 --> 00:12:09.529 first. Yeah, absolutely, we're big fans over here at sweet fish of 198 00:12:09.769 --> 00:12:13.529 Donald Miller's content right now, everything around story brand. If you're not subscribed 199 00:12:13.570 --> 00:12:18.159 to the building a story brand podcast, check that out. The book talks 200 00:12:18.200 --> 00:12:22.639 a lot about what is the singular enemy of your buyer and then you need 201 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:28.960 to identify that enemy and then you need to position yourself as the guide, 202 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:31.669 not the hero. Your customer is the hero. You are the guide to 203 00:12:31.830 --> 00:12:35.710 help them conquer that enemy, get get past that obstacle, get to the 204 00:12:35.789 --> 00:12:39.110 promised land. I got to swing back to something you said there, David, 205 00:12:39.269 --> 00:12:43.549 talking about I think we say a lot of these things very often but 206 00:12:43.669 --> 00:12:46.700 we don't kind of like double down on them and we continue to do things 207 00:12:46.940 --> 00:12:52.139 that we wouldn't respond to ourselves. So, like what you mentioned about Hey, 208 00:12:52.940 --> 00:12:58.379 prospect is ghosting me. Can you, without naming names, but maybe 209 00:12:58.419 --> 00:13:01.889 an example of like, Hey, you're probably still doing this and not stopping 210 00:13:03.009 --> 00:13:05.730 and thinking what I actually respond to that? Can can you call out a 211 00:13:05.850 --> 00:13:09.529 couple of those? Maybe that we could speak to just as kind of a 212 00:13:09.649 --> 00:13:11.210 wake up call. It to some sales people that are like, yeah, 213 00:13:11.210 --> 00:13:15.159 I'm listening to this, I would never do that sort of stuff. Wait 214 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:18.480 a second, maybe that's me. I'll tell you. Like one of the 215 00:13:18.519 --> 00:13:22.000 biggest things that people inadvertently do, and you know I refer to this. 216 00:13:22.200 --> 00:13:26.080 So there's a couple things. One of the biggest things I refer to as 217 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:30.190 closing tactics. These are things that sales people have been taught over the year. 218 00:13:30.350 --> 00:13:31.590 So, like let's say, you know, we're having a good discussion 219 00:13:31.710 --> 00:13:35.389 and you're kind of interested in my product and we're kind of, you know, 220 00:13:35.509 --> 00:13:37.950 nearing the finish line and I say so, Logan, is there any 221 00:13:37.990 --> 00:13:41.659 reason why you don't think we'd be able to move forward with this solution today? 222 00:13:41.659 --> 00:13:43.299 Right, or do you? Is there any reason why I would stop 223 00:13:43.340 --> 00:13:48.419 you from moving forward? Like it's a closing tactic, right, and that 224 00:13:48.539 --> 00:13:52.580 kind of tactic can manifest in lots of different ways. One of the simplest 225 00:13:52.620 --> 00:13:56.649 examples is even if you're out at the mall thumbing through some merchandise that like 226 00:13:56.690 --> 00:14:01.210 a retail store. You're thumbing through some tshirts, sales person comes overs is. 227 00:14:01.289 --> 00:14:03.929 Excuse me, sir, can I help you find something like what do 228 00:14:05.009 --> 00:14:09.490 you say? Just looking, just look at Brighton now. You say that 229 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:13.600 even if, for example, you actually do need help, because what you're 230 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:15.480 really saying is, hold on a second, I'm out all of a sudden, 231 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:18.600 feeling is undue pressure by this fell's person. And if I say yes, 232 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:22.360 if I say yeah, I need help, I'm basically giving you permission 233 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:26.070 to do whatever sleazy sale thinks you want to me. Yeah, yeah, 234 00:14:26.149 --> 00:14:28.590 we think yes is like the ticket to the next thing. But yes is 235 00:14:28.750 --> 00:14:35.070 our buyer giving up some control, and it's either a they're not going to 236 00:14:35.149 --> 00:14:37.389 give us the yes or they're going to give us a counterfeit yes, yeah, 237 00:14:37.740 --> 00:14:41.860 sure, right, and that's what you tell the you know, the 238 00:14:41.940 --> 00:14:45.059 pest control salesman who knocks on your door and you're like, I don't want 239 00:14:45.059 --> 00:14:48.139 to be rude, can I tell you a little bit today, you know, 240 00:14:48.259 --> 00:14:50.980 David, sure, okay, you glaze out for thirty seconds, you 241 00:14:52.059 --> 00:14:54.450 wait for that pause and say it's really a bad time and then you close 242 00:14:54.490 --> 00:14:58.929 the door a little bit more politely than saying no at the very beginning. 243 00:14:58.009 --> 00:15:01.370 Right, that, that's it, right, and so we feel like this 244 00:15:01.570 --> 00:15:05.009 pressure. We don't want it and we it's a scientific principle known as reactants, 245 00:15:05.049 --> 00:15:09.879 where we we automatically resist when we feel our freedom to choose has been 246 00:15:09.919 --> 00:15:13.279 restricted, and that could be anything from you knows there any reason why you 247 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:16.159 wouldn't close today to you know, hey, can I help you find something? 248 00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:18.039 And so there's an antidote to that, which is I give the customer 249 00:15:18.039 --> 00:15:20.549 space. Let make it okay for them to say no, and it's more 250 00:15:20.629 --> 00:15:24.309 likely they're going to say yes. But all of these like inadvertent things that 251 00:15:24.429 --> 00:15:28.230 we do, like I'll tell you one thing, and maybe your listeners here 252 00:15:28.350 --> 00:15:31.909 do this and hopefully, after I lay it on, maybe you have a 253 00:15:31.950 --> 00:15:35.509 different perspective. One of the the phrases that I hate the most, and 254 00:15:35.549 --> 00:15:37.779 I talked about this in the book, is the phrase does that make sense? 255 00:15:39.460 --> 00:15:41.580 Logan, does that make sense? And people uses all the time. 256 00:15:41.620 --> 00:15:46.299 And if you're one of these offenders and and you maybe you're doing it unconsciously, 257 00:15:46.299 --> 00:15:48.620 it's okay, like, I don't think you're a bad person and actually 258 00:15:48.620 --> 00:15:50.330 I do believe. Here's the thing. I actually do believe that the sales 259 00:15:50.370 --> 00:15:54.730 people that are out there that you don't like talking to hey, I actually 260 00:15:54.730 --> 00:15:58.370 believe they're not bad people. Right, they're not bad. They have families, 261 00:15:58.450 --> 00:16:00.690 they have, you know, people who love them, they play sports, 262 00:16:00.730 --> 00:16:03.639 they do all these but they go and they execute these tactics that they 263 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:08.000 unconsciously don't realize or having a negative impact. So when someone says Logan, 264 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:11.639 does that make sense, there's two ways that that, for example, can 265 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:15.639 sound. It can sound you know, and I'm going to be like facetious 266 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:17.960 here, but I would say logan, does that make sense, because I'm 267 00:16:17.960 --> 00:16:19.789 a pretty smart guy and I don't think you're smart at all, and so 268 00:16:21.389 --> 00:16:23.909 and so I'm kind of wondering if this complex, sophisticated that is making its 269 00:16:23.990 --> 00:16:27.029 way into your punity brain. or I could be the reverse. I could 270 00:16:27.029 --> 00:16:30.509 be selfdeprecating. I could I'd say Logan, does this make sense, because 271 00:16:30.509 --> 00:16:33.659 I'm not that good at explaining things and I don't know. This is the 272 00:16:33.740 --> 00:16:37.299 complex topic. I don't know if I did it justice. And both ways, 273 00:16:37.379 --> 00:16:41.860 when people say I feel put off, when someone says does that make 274 00:16:41.899 --> 00:16:45.220 sense, they can't put their finger on why because they're interpreting it and that 275 00:16:45.500 --> 00:16:48.370 the receiver in one of these two ways. And so a sales people, 276 00:16:48.370 --> 00:16:51.850 we sometimes on knowingly say that right, in addition to all sorts of other 277 00:16:51.889 --> 00:16:55.009 things. Yeah, it can be one of those fillers where you finished talking 278 00:16:55.169 --> 00:16:59.090 and you realize like maybe you haven't been looking at your course or gone recording 279 00:16:59.169 --> 00:17:03.000 and fit and monitoring your talk time lately and you're just Oh, no, 280 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:07.519 I've been talking for a while and I need to stop, but I don't 281 00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:11.200 know what question I'm going to ask because I've just been talking for for straight 282 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:14.759 minutes. So I'm going to say, does that make sense? So we're 283 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:17.269 kind of getting on a tangent here, but I think it's a really good 284 00:17:17.309 --> 00:17:19.789 tactical one, David. So what do you recommend in place of that in 285 00:17:19.910 --> 00:17:22.990 some of the coaching and training you're doing with sales people? The does that 286 00:17:23.109 --> 00:17:26.950 in place of does that make sense? Yeah, you can see like how 287 00:17:26.029 --> 00:17:29.630 does that sound? Do you think that would be something that would apply to 288 00:17:29.670 --> 00:17:32.619 Your Business? You know, where do you think you see the most value 289 00:17:32.660 --> 00:17:34.019 from something like that? Do you think you would see value from something like 290 00:17:34.059 --> 00:17:38.140 that? You can ask a good direct question instead of does that make sense? 291 00:17:38.420 --> 00:17:42.019 Now I'll tell you with every with every statement, there's any there's an 292 00:17:42.099 --> 00:17:45.529 exception, and I know our friends at Gong. They love doing like the 293 00:17:45.609 --> 00:17:49.609 analysis of these exceptions, and so the one instance that they say actually eat 294 00:17:49.690 --> 00:17:55.210 the does that make sense? Increases Conversion. Is that the end of let's 295 00:17:55.210 --> 00:17:57.049 say, a call, when you're setting next steps and you say you know, 296 00:17:57.210 --> 00:18:00.519 as a next step. Does it makes sense to now you're using it 297 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:04.480 in that sense, not to to clarify something you've said or to have, 298 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:08.599 you know, clarify understanding? You're making a suggestion. Does it asn't except. 299 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:11.920 Does it make sense to do this? In which guys is is it 300 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:15.349 reasonable? Does it? Does it make sense for what we've covered today? 301 00:18:15.549 --> 00:18:18.150 You're buying process right. I'm curious to hear what you think of this, 302 00:18:18.309 --> 00:18:22.470 because it's something I've been doing after reading. Never split the difference from Chris 303 00:18:22.549 --> 00:18:26.619 Voss, and you can tell me if this is a good application of pushing 304 00:18:26.740 --> 00:18:30.259 for no, because you've kind of echoed some of the things in that book 305 00:18:30.299 --> 00:18:33.220 that kind of uncovered me, like Hey, wait, we've all read how 306 00:18:33.299 --> 00:18:36.099 to win friends and influence people and yes, is the ticket to the next 307 00:18:36.140 --> 00:18:40.059 thing. Right, but there's actually psychology that kind of pushes against that. 308 00:18:40.180 --> 00:18:42.329 Not that there's not a ton of great wisdom for sales people in general and 309 00:18:42.569 --> 00:18:47.329 in that in that classic of a book. But at the end of my 310 00:18:47.650 --> 00:18:52.490 sales calls, often times I will say something to the effect of it seems 311 00:18:52.490 --> 00:18:56.440 like the best next step here would be to schedule a call about a week 312 00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:00.039 out, or would that be too soon? And what I'm doing there is 313 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:03.680 set giving them an opportunity to say no, no, that that wouldn't be 314 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:07.279 too soon, because them saying no gives them a little bit more feeling of 315 00:19:07.440 --> 00:19:11.789 control then saying yes, that I'm sticking into your buying process. And I'm 316 00:19:11.829 --> 00:19:15.910 also giving them still the opportunity to say, well, that is too soon, 317 00:19:17.029 --> 00:19:19.069 and so I get a sense of where they're at and their buying cycle. 318 00:19:19.190 --> 00:19:22.869 Or they might say well, that's a little bit far out. Can 319 00:19:22.910 --> 00:19:26.660 we talk again on Friday? And now I've gotten indicator of kind of they're 320 00:19:26.819 --> 00:19:30.619 buying velocity. What do you think about that strategy as it kind of applies 321 00:19:30.660 --> 00:19:33.140 to this topic we're on here? I love it. I first of all 322 00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:37.980 I love the fact that you know when people give suggestions right and let the 323 00:19:37.059 --> 00:19:41.049 other person you know, acquiesce and agree with those suggestions. People always like 324 00:19:41.329 --> 00:19:45.170 their ideas more than they like your ideas and I know, you know in 325 00:19:45.569 --> 00:19:48.490 never split the difference. Chris fozz talks about, you know, he defines 326 00:19:48.569 --> 00:19:53.279 negotiation as the art of letting someone else have your way. Right. So 327 00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:56.319 the idea is you kind of know what you want the next step to be 328 00:19:56.400 --> 00:20:00.079 and I think very skilled sales people will not only set like good next steps, 329 00:20:00.119 --> 00:20:03.920 but they'll set next steps, for example, that might even set landlines 330 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:07.470 for their competitors. So, for example, let's say you do really well 331 00:20:07.670 --> 00:20:11.390 in like legal and it reviews. Right, like, no, in betb 332 00:20:11.509 --> 00:20:14.150 tech, like no one really likes doing legal and ID reviews. But let's 333 00:20:14.190 --> 00:20:17.589 say you are. You are especially, you know, in a positive position 334 00:20:17.670 --> 00:20:19.109 your company. You might say to the customer, like, as a next 335 00:20:19.109 --> 00:20:22.380 step, do you think it makes sense for us to do maybe like an 336 00:20:22.460 --> 00:20:23.859 IT review? Is that something we're going to and, like, why would 337 00:20:23.859 --> 00:20:27.140 I offer that? I would offer that if I know that my competitors will 338 00:20:27.299 --> 00:20:30.700 fail the IT review, for example. But I'm making it as a suggestion 339 00:20:30.740 --> 00:20:34.539 and I might say, you know, customers at this stage typically want to 340 00:20:34.700 --> 00:20:38.890 do this right, and so I'm leading you through the process, helping you 341 00:20:40.049 --> 00:20:44.089 buy right it, which is the the the data says that the sales teams 342 00:20:44.089 --> 00:20:47.329 that take that leadership position help their customers buy are going to be in good 343 00:20:47.329 --> 00:20:49.200 shape. So I love the idea of offering it as a suggestion but letting 344 00:20:49.240 --> 00:20:52.799 them say yes or no to it. Yeah, but absolutely I like what 345 00:20:53.079 --> 00:20:57.480 your take on that too is. You know, some of our customers typically 346 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.640 to do Dada, Dada, Dat, because that gives you the authority, 347 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:04.869 because it says, Hey, I do this all the time. Right, 348 00:21:06.069 --> 00:21:08.470 this isn't my first Rodeo and as much as we hate talking to sales people, 349 00:21:08.470 --> 00:21:12.069 what do we hate more? Talking to green sales people that you know 350 00:21:12.269 --> 00:21:15.589 more than they do about the space. Right, and so you have to 351 00:21:15.710 --> 00:21:21.819 establish credibility and just that small tweak of you know, usually when I'm working 352 00:21:21.859 --> 00:21:25.299 with a customer of your size or in this industry, the next step is 353 00:21:25.460 --> 00:21:27.619 to do that. Would that make sense? Or is that not? Is 354 00:21:27.660 --> 00:21:30.579 that to premature at this point? And so I think a Combo of kind 355 00:21:30.579 --> 00:21:33.529 of what you just said here. I like this brainstorming with you, David. 356 00:21:33.890 --> 00:21:37.369 We've got to do this more often. Man, for for the sake 357 00:21:37.450 --> 00:21:41.569 of time, I want to wrap here. If there's one thing that sales 358 00:21:41.569 --> 00:21:45.849 people or sales managers could take away from this conversation. What would you want 359 00:21:45.089 --> 00:21:48.400 that to be for them today? Man, I think it sell the way 360 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:51.839 you buy. Like that's it. You know, sell the way you buy. 361 00:21:52.400 --> 00:21:55.319 Sell and use tactics that would work on you if you found yourself on 362 00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:59.160 the buying side of the table, but also like think about, try to 363 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:03.309 be more conscious about the tactics that you're using and look for data, research, 364 00:22:03.349 --> 00:22:06.390 science evidence that prove that they either do or do not work so that 365 00:22:06.509 --> 00:22:08.910 you can be more consistent in your sales motion. So that's it, man, 366 00:22:08.990 --> 00:22:14.589 sell away by absolutely anything that is going to bring more consistency to our 367 00:22:14.670 --> 00:22:18.259 life, to our forecast, to our quarter is just welcome with open arms 368 00:22:18.299 --> 00:22:22.380 right now. So I appreciate your thoughts there, David. If anybody is 369 00:22:23.259 --> 00:22:27.140 new to to you, not following some of your content or wants to find 370 00:22:27.180 --> 00:22:30.650 the book, what's the best way for them to take next steps on this 371 00:22:30.769 --> 00:22:33.490 topic with you? Yeah, so, you know, I actually give away 372 00:22:33.529 --> 00:22:37.849 a ton of stuff for free on my website, which is cerebral sellingcom. 373 00:22:37.490 --> 00:22:41.609 So tons of articles. You know, I have a youtube channel that links 374 00:22:41.730 --> 00:22:44.559 that page as well. So the Youtube Channel is cerebral selling, so tons 375 00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:47.839 of videos. Tons of articles. The book is called sell the way you 376 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:51.119 buy, which you can find on Amazon, bar and Sw Noble, Indigo, 377 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:55.319 in stores when we're allowed to be in stores, and and online. 378 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:57.119 So by all means go, go check it out. Awesome, David. 379 00:22:57.200 --> 00:23:00.630 This has been a great conversation. I feel like I could talk sales and 380 00:23:00.750 --> 00:23:03.349 selling all day with you, so thank you so much for being on the 381 00:23:03.390 --> 00:23:11.109 show today. All my pleasure. Logan. Thanks for having me. Hey, 382 00:23:11.190 --> 00:23:14.859 everybody, logan with sweet fish here. If you're a regular listener of 383 00:23:14.980 --> 00:23:17.940 BB growth, you know that I'm one of the cohost of this show, 384 00:23:18.259 --> 00:23:21.259 but you may not know that I also head up the sales team here, 385 00:23:21.339 --> 00:23:23.740 is sweetfish. So, for those of you in sales or sales offs, 386 00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:27.849 I wanted to take a second to share something that's made us insanely more efficient 387 00:23:27.930 --> 00:23:32.970 lately. Our team has been using lead Iq for the past few months and 388 00:23:33.130 --> 00:23:37.730 what used to take us four hours gathering contact data now takes us only one, 389 00:23:37.089 --> 00:23:41.319 or seventy five percent more efficient. We're able to move faster without bound 390 00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:48.000 prospecting and organizing our campaigns is so much easier than before. I'd highly suggest 391 00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:51.359 you guys check out lead Iq as well. You can check them out at 392 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:56.630 lead iqcom. That's Elle a d iqcom
