Transcript
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Welcome back to BEDB growth. I'm
Logan lyles with sweet fish media. Today
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I'm joined by David Preemer. He's
the founder and chief sales scientist at cerebral
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selling and author of sell the way
you buy. David, welcome to the
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show. How's it going today?
Oh, it's great, Logan, thanks
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for having me. Absolutely we're going
to be talking about how a lot of
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sales reps get selling value all wrong
today. For a little bit of context
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into why you're the guy talking about
this, give us a little bit of
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your background and in sales and what
led you to write the book that we're
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going to be pulling some of these
nuggets out of for the conversation today.
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Yeah, I mean so, like
most people who end up in professional sales
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careers, I got into sales by
accidents. You ever and has their story
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know when no one gets into this
on purpose. I started my career as
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a research scientist over twenty years ago
and got into sales by accident. At
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the turn of the dotcom boom,
I actually joined a start up as a
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sales engineer. So shout out to
all the sales and solution engineers out there.
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Everyone thinks you got to get into
sales being like a Dr str but
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my entree was through the the solution
consulting ranks. Ended up falling in love
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with sales because I realize sales is
not unlike engineering. There's you know,
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there's there's a their systems and variables
and the reasons why things happen. So
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I just fell in love and over
the next twenty years spent my time across
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four amazing high growth tech startups.
Three of them got acquired, one,
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which they helped start in two thousand
and eight, was acquired by sales force
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and came over with the ship.
SPENT, I've awesome years it sales force,
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seeing how the machine was built operationally
and culturally at scale, run small
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business sales for the eastern US sales
force before going on to start up number
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four. But through all of that
time, as I was falling in love
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with sales and leaving teams, you
know, I realized that, you know,
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people love to buy stuff but they
hate talking to sales people and it
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kind of bothered me that this was
the my my profession that I fell into,
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that I fell in love with and
I love. But when you tell
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someone you're in sales, it's like
you're the enemy by default, and that
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bothered me. And I realize that, as a VP of sales who is
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being prospected into all the time,
a lot of the tactics that my team
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was using were the same ones that
other reps were using to prospect and to
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me, and they weren't working.
So I said, well, it's got
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to be a better way, and
so I've been been writing and doing research
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and just kind of being a student
of sales for so many years. I
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decided, after all this time,
that there's nothing I could do better with
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the second half of my career than
teach the art and science of modern selling,
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which is what I do now in
my practice. Yeah, it's such
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a sad reality. I think it
might have been John Barrows. I can't
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remember who it was, but someone
was mentioning being in a room full of
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salespeople and saying how many of you
want to talk to a salesperson? We're
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talking to people who live and breathe
sales and our professional sellers themselves, and
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most of them would not put up
their hand and say, Hey, I
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look forward to that disco call,
I look forward to being on the other
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side of that demo and that points
to there being something wrong. So,
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as we dive into the conversation today, David, about really selling value,
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you unpacked us a little bit in
your book and also in a blog post
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that I recently checked out about value
in Roy not being the same. And
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there's actually a story about the seven, seven seven Burger that unpacks this a
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little bit and I love a good
story. So tus up with that man.
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Yeah, you know what, in
sales people are conditioned, often by
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our leadership, to sell value.
Go sell value, sell value. But
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really, when leaders say sell value, they mean like sell Roi. Meaning
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I want to go to the customer
and say, if you spend money with
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me today, then you will either
make money more than you're spending or you're
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going to save money to the extent
and more than you're spending. Right.
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So there's a return there, and
so they're saying sell value. But the
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reality is, when we think about
selling the way we buy and how we
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buy or this is kind of where
the concept of the book came from,
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it's like we don't buy our lie, like most of the time, like
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if I were to ask you to
write down everything you ordered for lunch in
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the last month, okay, and
then I said I'm going to take that
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list, I'm going to show it
to your doctor and I'm going to ask
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your doctor what percentage of the time
to Logan or maybe you super healthy guy.
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Mean sometimes I choose the wrong people. But you know you're shaking your
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head. So what percentage of the
time did you order the right thing or
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make the best thing for you?
And I say best calorically food groups.
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You know, what would you portion
side? What would you write right?
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All those things? Probably not a
very high percentage of the time. I've
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got a bit of a sweet tooth
and so I would say emotion is a
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big driver, especially right now.
Some of us are stress eating a little
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bit. I'm, you know,
going to raise my hand a little bit.
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So yeah, I'm tracking right with
you, David. And Look,
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you know being in sale, sales
is a tough job. So a lot
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of times that you get home at
the end of a long day or at
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the end of the like. Imagine
it's the end of the month, end
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of the quarter, and you say, you know what, I know,
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I tried really you know what I
deserve right, and you usually fill in
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that blank with something that's not good
for you. Kay. Let's just it's
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like a drink, a pizza,
beer, whatever it is, it's not
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good for you. And so we
end up making these decisions based on feelings.
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And so when I say self value, value is a discretionary feeling.
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Roi Is an objective financial statistic.
And so when we say sell value,
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what we should really be meaning to
say it's like sell feelings. And the
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story you mentioned was the story of
the triple seven Burger, which is a
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menu item in the and a restaurant
called the Burger Brasserie in a semi I'm
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Canadians, my French is pretty good, in the Paris Hotel in Las Vegas,
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and it's like seven hundred and seventy
seven dollars and it's a burger with
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all of these crazy, you know, exorbitant topping Frog Wi, you know,
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hundred ages balsamic vinegar and and all
these crazy cheeses and stuff, and
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it comes with like a bottle of
wine. And you see this on a
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menu and you're like who the hell
orders this? Like this kind of menu
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items should actually not exist in the
world, and yet it does and people
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order it, and so you're thinking
yourself like why would someone order it,
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and the reason is because this is
something that they felt like, that they
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value, and we all have the
not going to oute you, but you
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know and ask you. But like, think about something you spend money on,
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Logan, that someone else would take
a look at. If you're listening
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to this thin about something you spend
money on that another person would look at
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and say that's ridiculous. Right,
Yep, absolutely. We've all have those
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different things, right, and that's
where, you know, the conversation,
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you have to kind of pause yourself, like when you want to say,
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Hey, man, that's ridiculous.
Well, wait, what do I have?
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And then quickly something else POPs to
minds completely different. Right. I'm
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not a car guy, I think, you know, spending money on certain
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things and bells and whistles and fancy
cars, just like why would? Why
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would you do that? But I've
got my other things, right, I'm
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a little bit of a tech head. I'm a little bit, you know,
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I nerd out on the newest tech
and that sort of stuff. So,
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yeah, totally tracking with you still, man. Yeah, look,
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so that's you buy things based on
what you value, and so the real
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question is you're trying to sell someone
something you have to ask yourself, what
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is this person value? And you
might make an assumption based on, Oh,
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you're the VP of sales at such
and such a company. You probably
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have these problemses what you value.
But imagine, you know, like what's
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going on. You know now and
in times of crisis, you know,
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if you were selling, for example, face masks. Okay, like governments
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are buying face masking. You.
I. I often wonder when the speed
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wage governments and hospitals are buying all
of this, you know, equipment.
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Are they negotiating? Are they like
driving for like a hard price, or
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is it just that they value getting
this so quickly and getting into the hands
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of people who need it? That
actually, like it doesn't really matter what
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they're paying, like the the wallets
are open. So what they value now
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is is not what you would necessarily
expect a hospital administrator buying equipment for their
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team to value under normal circumstances.
But the reality is there's no such thing
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as normal circumstances. We all have, you know, these idiosyncrasies and even,
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for example, let's say, like
if I had a fire in my
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house and now I got to get, you know, smoke detectors and so
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on, or like more fire suppressing, like all of a sudden the wallets
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are open. I value safety over
money, right. Or let's say I
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just had a failed project to my
company. I might value a vendor who
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charges more, but I know we'll
get the job done. Like, no
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one got fired for buying. IBM
exists because of value. Yeah, absolutely,
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and it's you know, there's this
common misconception that be to be buying
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is is not about emotion. Right, because there are procurement departments and there
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are buying committees and all of these
sorts of things to make it standardized and
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very logical. But let's take another
example. I love examples that you're thrown
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out, so I'm going to keep
going down that trail with you. If
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I buy something on Amazon one I
can return it very easily, even amidst
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all of this. So hats off
to them for keeping up with amazing return
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just customer experience. But let's say
I can't return it and it's, you
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know, five dollar deoderant or whatever. Right, I'm out five bucks.
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Right, but if I sign up
for a new sales enablement software for my
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sales team, it's not my money
that I'm out, but if and if
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I didn't. Maybe I didn't make
the decision by myself, but I was
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the primary sponsor who said this is
what we need, this is the vendor
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we should select. That could have
some serious career implications if you were the
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one leading that, quote unquote,
wrong decision. So how is there not
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emotion tied up in that? And
so I think as sellers it's about uncovering
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what does the buyer value? What
is important to them in this situation?
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Emotionally, logically, I'm going to
put air quotes around that as well.
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So what are some of the the
steps for sellers who are starting to realize
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this, David, where you coach
them on to on uncovering how do they
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sell value as the buyer perceives it? Going back to the name of your
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book, sell the way that you
buy or you are buyers are going to
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buy. Yeah, well, so
selling the way by. There's kind of
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two pieces to it. There's this
empathetic component, which is just don't use,
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you know, simply don't use tactics
that wouldn't work on you. And
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and I would be in the situation
at ton where my reps would come to
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me at sales for as other companies
and would be like David, customers gone
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dark. We're looking to reinvigorate the
deal. I'm looking to send this email
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to them. You know what,
can you read it? Let me know
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what you think, and I would
read it and I would say like,
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I don't know, Logan, like
what do you think? If you're the
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customer, would you respond to this? and they would smile and kind of
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be like no, I'll try again. So there's an empathetic component to these
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tactics, but there's also like the
pathways by which we make purchasing decisions.
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Like that's a really important factor which
is often something it's not taken into consideration
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when we cry after sales motion.
One of the easiest ways that I coach
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people, when I talk about how
to connect with customers emotionally, is instead
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of leading with the the solution or
even the benefits, lead with the problem.
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Lead with the problem, because people
you need to fall in love with
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the problem. The customer will have
an emotional reaction to the problem. And
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you even actually said at the beginning
you know, you mentioned, you know,
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this idea of do you ever like
yet you do, you like talking
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to sales people. Hey, sales
people out there. You like talking to
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sales people. It's no, no
coincidence that on my website, like the
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what is the front copy say?
Do you ever wonder why you don't like
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talking to sales people? Now,
my website is geared to sales people.
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It's not geared to like ret regular
you know, every doctors and accountants.
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It's to sales people and sales later. So why would I say that?
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It's because I have a hunch,
and there's data to support from research,
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that people don't like talking to sales
people. And so when you read that,
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if you're a salesperson, you're like, hold on a second, yeah,
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I don't like talking to sales people. I've led with the problem and
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now you're going to lean in and
you're going to say, tell me more
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about this, like what is this? And I'll tell you. In all
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the years of doing this training sales
teams, no customer asks to see my
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deck, my training presentation. Before
I get when you think like isn't that
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what they're buying? Some dude gets
up and like shares a deck and walkster
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training and helps their team, but
no one says, David, you before
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we make this decision, I want
to see the deck, because what they're
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buying is the is the the emotional
connection to the problem, and so I
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always say, like, find who
your customers enemy is. Leave with that
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first. Yeah, absolutely, we're
big fans over here at sweet fish of
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Donald Miller's content right now, everything
around story brand. If you're not subscribed
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to the building a story brand podcast, check that out. The book talks
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a lot about what is the singular
enemy of your buyer and then you need
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to identify that enemy and then you
need to position yourself as the guide,
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not the hero. Your customer is
the hero. You are the guide to
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help them conquer that enemy, get
get past that obstacle, get to the
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promised land. I got to swing
back to something you said there, David,
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talking about I think we say a
lot of these things very often but
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we don't kind of like double down
on them and we continue to do things
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that we wouldn't respond to ourselves.
So, like what you mentioned about Hey,
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prospect is ghosting me. Can you, without naming names, but maybe
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an example of like, Hey,
you're probably still doing this and not stopping
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and thinking what I actually respond to
that? Can can you call out a
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couple of those? Maybe that we
could speak to just as kind of a
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wake up call. It to some
sales people that are like, yeah,
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I'm listening to this, I would
never do that sort of stuff. Wait
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a second, maybe that's me.
I'll tell you. Like one of the
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biggest things that people inadvertently do,
and you know I refer to this.
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So there's a couple things. One
of the biggest things I refer to as
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closing tactics. These are things that
sales people have been taught over the year.
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So, like let's say, you
know, we're having a good discussion
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and you're kind of interested in my
product and we're kind of, you know,
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nearing the finish line and I say
so, Logan, is there any
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reason why you don't think we'd be
able to move forward with this solution today?
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Right, or do you? Is
there any reason why I would stop
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you from moving forward? Like it's
a closing tactic, right, and that
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kind of tactic can manifest in lots
of different ways. One of the simplest
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examples is even if you're out at
the mall thumbing through some merchandise that like
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a retail store. You're thumbing through
some tshirts, sales person comes overs is.
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Excuse me, sir, can I
help you find something like what do
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you say? Just looking, just
look at Brighton now. You say that
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even if, for example, you
actually do need help, because what you're
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really saying is, hold on a
second, I'm out all of a sudden,
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feeling is undue pressure by this fell's
person. And if I say yes,
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if I say yeah, I need
help, I'm basically giving you permission
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to do whatever sleazy sale thinks you
want to me. Yeah, yeah,
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we think yes is like the ticket
to the next thing. But yes is
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our buyer giving up some control,
and it's either a they're not going to
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give us the yes or they're going
to give us a counterfeit yes, yeah,
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sure, right, and that's what
you tell the you know, the
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pest control salesman who knocks on your
door and you're like, I don't want
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to be rude, can I tell
you a little bit today, you know,
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David, sure, okay, you
glaze out for thirty seconds, you
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wait for that pause and say it's
really a bad time and then you close
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the door a little bit more politely
than saying no at the very beginning.
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Right, that, that's it,
right, and so we feel like this
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pressure. We don't want it and
we it's a scientific principle known as reactants,
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where we we automatically resist when we
feel our freedom to choose has been
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restricted, and that could be anything
from you knows there any reason why you
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wouldn't close today to you know,
hey, can I help you find something?
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And so there's an antidote to that, which is I give the customer
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space. Let make it okay for
them to say no, and it's more
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likely they're going to say yes.
But all of these like inadvertent things that
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we do, like I'll tell you
one thing, and maybe your listeners here
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do this and hopefully, after I
lay it on, maybe you have a
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different perspective. One of the the
phrases that I hate the most, and
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I talked about this in the book, is the phrase does that make sense?
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Logan, does that make sense?
And people uses all the time.
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And if you're one of these offenders
and and you maybe you're doing it unconsciously,
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it's okay, like, I don't
think you're a bad person and actually
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I do believe. Here's the thing. I actually do believe that the sales
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people that are out there that you
don't like talking to hey, I actually
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believe they're not bad people. Right, they're not bad. They have families,
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they have, you know, people
who love them, they play sports,
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they do all these but they go
and they execute these tactics that they
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unconsciously don't realize or having a negative
impact. So when someone says Logan,
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does that make sense, there's two
ways that that, for example, can
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sound. It can sound you know, and I'm going to be like facetious
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here, but I would say logan, does that make sense, because I'm
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a pretty smart guy and I don't
think you're smart at all, and so
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and so I'm kind of wondering if
this complex, sophisticated that is making its
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way into your punity brain. or
I could be the reverse. I could
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be selfdeprecating. I could I'd say
Logan, does this make sense, because
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I'm not that good at explaining things
and I don't know. This is the
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complex topic. I don't know if
I did it justice. And both ways,
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when people say I feel put off, when someone says does that make
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sense, they can't put their finger
on why because they're interpreting it and that
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the receiver in one of these two
ways. And so a sales people,
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we sometimes on knowingly say that right, in addition to all sorts of other
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things. Yeah, it can be
one of those fillers where you finished talking
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and you realize like maybe you haven't
been looking at your course or gone recording
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and fit and monitoring your talk time
lately and you're just Oh, no,
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I've been talking for a while and
I need to stop, but I don't
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know what question I'm going to ask
because I've just been talking for for straight
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minutes. So I'm going to say, does that make sense? So we're
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kind of getting on a tangent here, but I think it's a really good
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tactical one, David. So what
do you recommend in place of that in
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some of the coaching and training you're
doing with sales people? The does that
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in place of does that make sense? Yeah, you can see like how
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does that sound? Do you think
that would be something that would apply to
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Your Business? You know, where
do you think you see the most value
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from something like that? Do you
think you would see value from something like
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that? You can ask a good
direct question instead of does that make sense?
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Now I'll tell you with every with
every statement, there's any there's an
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exception, and I know our friends
at Gong. They love doing like the
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analysis of these exceptions, and so
the one instance that they say actually eat
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the does that make sense? Increases
Conversion. Is that the end of let's
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say, a call, when you're
setting next steps and you say you know,
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as a next step. Does it
makes sense to now you're using it
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in that sense, not to to
clarify something you've said or to have,
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you know, clarify understanding? You're
making a suggestion. Does it asn't except.
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Does it make sense to do this? In which guys is is it
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reasonable? Does it? Does it
make sense for what we've covered today?
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You're buying process right. I'm curious
to hear what you think of this,
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because it's something I've been doing after
reading. Never split the difference from Chris
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Voss, and you can tell me
if this is a good application of pushing
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for no, because you've kind of
echoed some of the things in that book
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that kind of uncovered me, like
Hey, wait, we've all read how
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to win friends and influence people and
yes, is the ticket to the next
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thing. Right, but there's actually
psychology that kind of pushes against that.
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Not that there's not a ton of
great wisdom for sales people in general and
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in that in that classic of a
book. But at the end of my
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sales calls, often times I will
say something to the effect of it seems
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like the best next step here would
be to schedule a call about a week
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out, or would that be too
soon? And what I'm doing there is
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set giving them an opportunity to say
no, no, that that wouldn't be
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too soon, because them saying no
gives them a little bit more feeling of
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control then saying yes, that I'm
sticking into your buying process. And I'm
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also giving them still the opportunity to
say, well, that is too soon,
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and so I get a sense of
where they're at and their buying cycle.
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Or they might say well, that's
a little bit far out. Can
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we talk again on Friday? And
now I've gotten indicator of kind of they're
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buying velocity. What do you think
about that strategy as it kind of applies
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to this topic we're on here?
I love it. I first of all
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I love the fact that you know
when people give suggestions right and let the
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other person you know, acquiesce and
agree with those suggestions. People always like
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their ideas more than they like your
ideas and I know, you know in
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never split the difference. Chris fozz
talks about, you know, he defines
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negotiation as the art of letting someone
else have your way. Right. So
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the idea is you kind of know
what you want the next step to be
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and I think very skilled sales people
will not only set like good next steps,
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but they'll set next steps, for
example, that might even set landlines
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for their competitors. So, for
example, let's say you do really well
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in like legal and it reviews.
Right, like, no, in betb
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tech, like no one really likes
doing legal and ID reviews. But let's
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say you are. You are especially, you know, in a positive position
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your company. You might say to
the customer, like, as a next
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step, do you think it makes
sense for us to do maybe like an
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IT review? Is that something we're
going to and, like, why would
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I offer that? I would offer
that if I know that my competitors will
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fail the IT review, for example. But I'm making it as a suggestion
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and I might say, you know, customers at this stage typically want to
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do this right, and so I'm
leading you through the process, helping you
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buy right it, which is the
the the data says that the sales teams
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that take that leadership position help their
customers buy are going to be in good
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shape. So I love the idea
of offering it as a suggestion but letting
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them say yes or no to it. Yeah, but absolutely I like what
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your take on that too is.
You know, some of our customers typically
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to do Dada, Dada, Dat, because that gives you the authority,
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because it says, Hey, I
do this all the time. Right,
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this isn't my first Rodeo and as
much as we hate talking to sales people,
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what do we hate more? Talking
to green sales people that you know
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more than they do about the space. Right, and so you have to
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establish credibility and just that small tweak
of you know, usually when I'm working
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with a customer of your size or
in this industry, the next step is
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to do that. Would that make
sense? Or is that not? Is
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that to premature at this point?
And so I think a Combo of kind
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of what you just said here.
I like this brainstorming with you, David.
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We've got to do this more often. Man, for for the sake
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of time, I want to wrap
here. If there's one thing that sales
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people or sales managers could take away
from this conversation. What would you want
359
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that to be for them today?
Man, I think it sell the way
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you buy. Like that's it.
You know, sell the way you buy.
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Sell and use tactics that would work
on you if you found yourself on
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the buying side of the table,
but also like think about, try to
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be more conscious about the tactics that
you're using and look for data, research,
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science evidence that prove that they either
do or do not work so that
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you can be more consistent in your
sales motion. So that's it, man,
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sell away by absolutely anything that is
going to bring more consistency to our
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life, to our forecast, to
our quarter is just welcome with open arms
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right now. So I appreciate your
thoughts there, David. If anybody is
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new to to you, not following
some of your content or wants to find
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the book, what's the best way
for them to take next steps on this
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00:22:30.769 --> 00:22:33.490
topic with you? Yeah, so, you know, I actually give away
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00:22:33.529 --> 00:22:37.849
a ton of stuff for free on
my website, which is cerebral sellingcom.
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So tons of articles. You know, I have a youtube channel that links
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that page as well. So the
Youtube Channel is cerebral selling, so tons
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00:22:44.599 --> 00:22:47.839
of videos. Tons of articles.
The book is called sell the way you
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00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:51.119
buy, which you can find on
Amazon, bar and Sw Noble, Indigo,
377
00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:55.319
in stores when we're allowed to be
in stores, and and online.
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00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:57.119
So by all means go, go
check it out. Awesome, David.
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This has been a great conversation.
I feel like I could talk sales and
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selling all day with you, so
thank you so much for being on the
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show today. All my pleasure.
Logan. Thanks for having me. Hey,
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everybody, logan with sweet fish here. If you're a regular listener of
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BB growth, you know that I'm
one of the cohost of this show,
384
00:23:18.259 --> 00:23:21.259
but you may not know that I
also head up the sales team here,
385
00:23:21.339 --> 00:23:23.740
is sweetfish. So, for those
of you in sales or sales offs,
386
00:23:23.940 --> 00:23:27.849
I wanted to take a second to
share something that's made us insanely more efficient
387
00:23:27.930 --> 00:23:32.970
lately. Our team has been using
lead Iq for the past few months and
388
00:23:33.130 --> 00:23:37.730
what used to take us four hours
gathering contact data now takes us only one,
389
00:23:37.089 --> 00:23:41.319
or seventy five percent more efficient.
We're able to move faster without bound
390
00:23:41.359 --> 00:23:48.000
prospecting and organizing our campaigns is so
much easier than before. I'd highly suggest
391
00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:51.359
you guys check out lead Iq as
well. You can check them out at
392
00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:56.630
lead iqcom. That's Elle a d
iqcom