Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.559 --> 00:00:08.910 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media. 2 00:00:09.150 --> 00:00:13.349 Today I'm joined by Joe Turnoff. He is an experience bb marketer, 3 00:00:13.669 --> 00:00:18.750 multi time CMO. He spent time at MARTEC companies like help spot and Eloqui. 4 00:00:18.789 --> 00:00:22.019 If you're in BB marketing and you don't know Joe, you definitely should. 5 00:00:22.140 --> 00:00:25.260 We're going to be talking with him about product led growth today. Joe 6 00:00:25.379 --> 00:00:28.780 Is currently the CMO at Pendo. Joe, welcome back to the show. 7 00:00:29.179 --> 00:00:32.420 Thanks, thanks for having me again. Absolutely so. We're going to get 8 00:00:32.579 --> 00:00:37.130 into what you've been thinking about when it comes to product led growth, but 9 00:00:37.170 --> 00:00:40.929 there are a number of things that have led you there, that have caused 10 00:00:40.929 --> 00:00:45.969 you to be so passionate about this motion for marketing and organizations as a whole, 11 00:00:46.329 --> 00:00:50.960 and that is some of the problems with the typical demandin motion that so 12 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:54.600 many have gotten used to. Can you tell us a little bit about why 13 00:00:54.640 --> 00:01:00.079 you're so passionate about this? Sure so. I think a big chunk of 14 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:06.269 my background was in content marketing and at the time that came around, there 15 00:01:06.349 --> 00:01:12.870 was this opportunity to for marketers to be more generally helpful, so content. 16 00:01:12.989 --> 00:01:17.189 To that point, I'm going back to maybe two thousand and two thousand and 17 00:01:17.189 --> 00:01:22.420 ten, it kind of comet to that point was really sales focused. It 18 00:01:22.579 --> 00:01:26.579 was collateral right. That was all specific to the product and everybody knew that. 19 00:01:26.819 --> 00:01:30.019 Some market put their thumb on the scale right. All of those vendor 20 00:01:30.099 --> 00:01:34.849 comparisons. Your company get all the checks and your competitors only got a couple 21 00:01:34.930 --> 00:01:38.650 checks right, and so nobody really believed it. And then along comes this 22 00:01:38.769 --> 00:01:44.890 inbound marketing movement that my friends have up spot pioneered, and that was about 23 00:01:44.930 --> 00:01:49.920 like published materials that generally honest and helpful and that went a long way. 24 00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:56.200 Went a long way in restoring marketings credibility and it went a long way and 25 00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:02.230 help discovered and get discovered on on the buyers terms. The funny thing happened. 26 00:02:04.349 --> 00:02:07.430 We sort of got addicted to that as marketers and it became too much 27 00:02:07.430 --> 00:02:15.860 of a good thing. Problem and overhyme, we started to publish content that 28 00:02:16.060 --> 00:02:22.539 was further and further afoot from what the company did and sold. And I 29 00:02:22.659 --> 00:02:30.210 think we did that because our goals became vanity goals, traffic goals, first 30 00:02:30.250 --> 00:02:36.449 time conversion goals, and so in pursuit of those KPI's we started to publish 31 00:02:36.530 --> 00:02:39.969 content that had less and less to do with the product until, like now, 32 00:02:40.050 --> 00:02:45.039 I see companies gaining book reviews and they're not a publisher, right, 33 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:47.919 software companies gating book reviews, gating meeting. Put a form in front of 34 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:53.840 and that like. Imagine being the str on the other side of that call, 35 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:57.919 right, you trying to sell software and and the person you're talking to 36 00:02:58.360 --> 00:03:00.990 thinks you're a book critic. No wonder, it doesn't work. And so 37 00:03:01.150 --> 00:03:07.870 we've created this enormous chasm between the stories marketing tells in the product the company 38 00:03:07.949 --> 00:03:15.580 sells, and we need to fill that gap. And in that gap is 39 00:03:15.780 --> 00:03:19.979 the emergence. We saw the emergence of account based marketing start to fill that 40 00:03:20.099 --> 00:03:23.900 gap and now we're starting to see product led growth start to fill that gap. 41 00:03:24.180 --> 00:03:30.129 How can the product itself be a source of demand creation? Joy, 42 00:03:30.129 --> 00:03:32.610 as you and I were talking a little bit offline, you mentioned this comment 43 00:03:32.849 --> 00:03:37.169 or a tweet. We couldn't even, you know, go back to see 44 00:03:37.409 --> 00:03:39.650 where was the your origin, but you've been quoted a lot about the top 45 00:03:39.689 --> 00:03:44.080 of funnel content. Can you talk a little bit about that quote and where 46 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.520 you see us, where there's truth and where we've kind of strayed from that 47 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:53.240 when it comes to the relationship between your top of funnel content and and what 48 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:55.789 you do as an organization. Yeah, you know, I this thing just 49 00:03:55.990 --> 00:04:00.389 I said something once in it kind of stuck and I believed it at the 50 00:04:00.469 --> 00:04:03.909 time, but I think now it's like maybe more damaging than good, and 51 00:04:04.430 --> 00:04:09.990 it was something to the effect of your top of funnel content should be divorced 52 00:04:10.219 --> 00:04:15.620 from your should be intellectually divorced from your product but emotionally wedded to it. 53 00:04:15.100 --> 00:04:18.420 And what I meant is, like it should have a product you feel to 54 00:04:18.579 --> 00:04:24.689 it. It should speak to oddly topics that are associated with your product, 55 00:04:25.009 --> 00:04:29.329 but it should never touch on what your product is. And now I think 56 00:04:29.689 --> 00:04:32.490 we have, as an industry, taken that advice, not that everybody's read 57 00:04:32.529 --> 00:04:38.170 it, but like directionally taken that advice too far and we've strayed so far 58 00:04:38.209 --> 00:04:43.959 from the product that we're setting our invon sales team up for failure, and 59 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:47.560 so I would like to change that. Like it should be intellectually wedded and 60 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:54.110 emotionally wetted to your product. It doesn't need to be like a piece of 61 00:04:54.149 --> 00:04:57.589 product collateral, but you shouldn't be ashamed of your product. Right, you 62 00:04:57.629 --> 00:05:01.870 shouldn't try to avoid your product at all costs. Your product needs to be 63 00:05:02.029 --> 00:05:06.459 more of a character in your brand narrative and I gave kind of bad advice. 64 00:05:08.860 --> 00:05:11.620 The way I see it is, you know, Donald Miller talks a 65 00:05:11.699 --> 00:05:15.459 lot about the stories that we tell. Often as marketers, we try to 66 00:05:15.620 --> 00:05:20.100 put ourselves, our product or our company as the hero, when we should 67 00:05:20.100 --> 00:05:24.410 be the guide and our customer is the hero. And in it kind of 68 00:05:24.490 --> 00:05:30.009 mixing that analogy in the way that you're talking about incorporating your product as an 69 00:05:30.129 --> 00:05:32.810 element in in that story. It should be a this is the tool, 70 00:05:33.129 --> 00:05:39.759 right, this is what I'm giving as the guide to to that hero character. 71 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:43.360 Do you think I'm kind of combining what you and Donald Miller talking about 72 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:45.720 in a good way there, or my Alpha Bit? No, no, 73 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:47.839 I don't think you're off at all. I think, like Gosh, we're 74 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:54.589 just so at salutist right, like it's either high volume leads or high quality, 75 00:05:54.990 --> 00:05:59.110 and it's either the customer is the hero or the product is the hero. 76 00:05:59.870 --> 00:06:03.300 But Batman wouldn't be Batman without help from a lot of people, and 77 00:06:03.620 --> 00:06:12.139 so the hero is the partnership between the customer and the product. And when 78 00:06:12.220 --> 00:06:16.579 we look at it as the customers the hero, we are subordinating our product. 79 00:06:17.220 --> 00:06:21.129 And what I'm trying to do is not subordinate the product but also be 80 00:06:21.329 --> 00:06:27.850 respectful of everybody else in that narrative. It is the pairing of the right 81 00:06:28.009 --> 00:06:31.449 product with the right person in the right organization at the right time. The 82 00:06:31.490 --> 00:06:36.879 rate set of goals like that cluster is the hero of the story. And 83 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:41.720 and so I think putting one stem on the sale scale and say the customers 84 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:44.000 should be the hero of the product is a good thing to do. The 85 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:47.029 hero the story is a good thing to do because too many marketers are still 86 00:06:47.029 --> 00:06:54.029 sort of there's a navel gazing quality right there where they can't look beyond their 87 00:06:54.069 --> 00:06:59.350 own self interest, and so forcing them to pay attention to the customer as 88 00:06:59.389 --> 00:07:03.939 a hero. That's that's that's a healthy pursuit. But I believe it's the 89 00:07:04.019 --> 00:07:09.100 juncture that's the hero. Yeah, so what you were saying, Joe, 90 00:07:09.339 --> 00:07:15.339 about going too far. We're gating things like book reviews and things that might 91 00:07:15.379 --> 00:07:18.610 be applicable to our audience. But if you're going to do that, in 92 00:07:18.689 --> 00:07:24.370 my opinion you should just add value and drive actual demands, not a not 93 00:07:24.529 --> 00:07:28.649 a lead. But the reason that we're doing that is because of something that 94 00:07:28.769 --> 00:07:32.160 has emerged in our marketing motions that you call the messy middle, where we 95 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:38.759 overvalue those demo requests, that that lead. We would rather have a higher 96 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:43.560 volume of leads that close at a very small percentage than a lower volume at 97 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:46.509 a higher percentage. Can you talk a little bit about more of those problems, 98 00:07:46.589 --> 00:07:49.550 a little bit further down the funnel for that, SDR, and then 99 00:07:49.589 --> 00:07:56.470 we'll get into how can marketers change their their motion to address that? Yeah, 100 00:07:57.189 --> 00:08:01.259 I think the messy middle has a meaning. That isn't this I've been 101 00:08:01.300 --> 00:08:05.019 calling I've been doing a play on the messy middle and just calling it internally 102 00:08:05.060 --> 00:08:07.579 the missing middle. A lot of ms in this sentence. So I think 103 00:08:07.660 --> 00:08:13.850 what is played out is that we have this false binary in marketing where we 104 00:08:13.930 --> 00:08:20.050 look at high volume, low quality or low volume high quality. Pick one 105 00:08:20.089 --> 00:08:26.009 right and and and content marketing has become high volume low quality. I am 106 00:08:26.089 --> 00:08:31.240 sure those gated book reviews get a lot of downloads and I am certain that 107 00:08:31.320 --> 00:08:35.960 none of those become opportunities, or very few. By none I mean you 108 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:41.080 know, one or two percent. On the other hand. I'm certain that 109 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:48.590 company has a sale guided demo and I am positive that that has a high 110 00:08:48.669 --> 00:08:52.509 conversion to up. It's just not very elastic. Hard to get somebody to 111 00:08:52.669 --> 00:08:56.179 be willing to talk to sales. You know what happens when you talk to 112 00:08:56.259 --> 00:09:01.019 sales. You never stop talking to sales. They follow you like toilet paper 113 00:09:01.059 --> 00:09:05.139 in your shoe, and so nobody wants to do that. And so you 114 00:09:05.179 --> 00:09:09.700 got this like this, this divide where, as a marketing team, you 115 00:09:09.820 --> 00:09:13.730 can make your number and keep your job by jinting up all these let's call 116 00:09:13.809 --> 00:09:18.529 them are quotes here, mql's. There's no Q, just ml's right there. 117 00:09:18.730 --> 00:09:24.049 Yes, yeah, I love them. Or you can have low volume 118 00:09:24.129 --> 00:09:28.440 but like boost your quality score by getting some of those demos and in the 119 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:33.320 end you you know, you you average them together and you look pretty good. 120 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:39.429 But what we're all overlooking is what I call internally the fifteen percenters. 121 00:09:41.470 --> 00:09:52.980 It's a somewhat elastic class of leads that has a predictable conversion rate to opportunity 122 00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:58.500 and it's has elements of both. You don't have to talk to sales because 123 00:09:58.580 --> 00:10:03.659 we know that's an emotional hurdle, and so that suggest there's some more or 124 00:10:03.659 --> 00:10:09.809 elasticity to this, but the not going to perform quite as well as somebody 125 00:10:09.850 --> 00:10:15.809 who does cross that threshold and talked sales, but they're not going to be 126 00:10:15.850 --> 00:10:20.370 anywhere in there as elastic as gated book reviews, right, because you can't 127 00:10:20.370 --> 00:10:24.080 mention the twenty authors names and get all of them to tweet it and get 128 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.559 some pre visibility. It's something in the middle and that's what's missing. And 129 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:35.600 I've been interviewing VP's of revenue marketing for the last couple of months and in 130 00:10:35.750 --> 00:10:39.990 one way or another all interviews end with that company realizing that they too have 131 00:10:41.070 --> 00:10:45.269 a missing middle. Yeah, so talk to us about the next steps. 132 00:10:45.309 --> 00:10:50.700 We love to focus on what marketers can do today or tomorrow to start addressing 133 00:10:50.899 --> 00:10:54.340 some of these problems, and I think you've uncovered some that are just very 134 00:10:56.100 --> 00:11:01.259 consistent across several organizations. It's coming up in all sorts of conversations and interviews 135 00:11:01.539 --> 00:11:05.169 you're having offline. What does that lead us to? What what should we 136 00:11:05.210 --> 00:11:09.289 do about this now as we've realized it? Joe, look, account base 137 00:11:09.370 --> 00:11:13.049 marketing has been one way to fill it. Where are you, instead of 138 00:11:13.090 --> 00:11:18.840 having this wide mouth and narrow bottom funnel. You try to have more of 139 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:24.039 a cylinder right. That has in that's effective, but it's effective for very 140 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:30.679 specific type of product for a very specific type of audience. What has emerged 141 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:35.309 to sort of fill the void for others is this notion of product led growth, 142 00:11:35.190 --> 00:11:41.710 that the product itself is shoulders the load, or a portion of the 143 00:11:41.789 --> 00:11:46.299 load, for demand creation and demand capture. So we've gone from like where 144 00:11:46.340 --> 00:11:50.740 we started this conversation, where I said it was all about like collateral and 145 00:11:50.860 --> 00:11:54.340 markets didn't have trust. That's a sales led org, going in the other 146 00:11:54.460 --> 00:12:01.419 direction, where it's all about lead volume at any expense. That's a marketing 147 00:12:01.490 --> 00:12:05.450 led or, because sales frankly pays the price for that. We're we're moving 148 00:12:05.610 --> 00:12:13.250 to is a product led org that is enabled by sales and marketing, but 149 00:12:13.370 --> 00:12:22.480 the product itself becomes a source of demand creation, it becomes a nurturing mechanism 150 00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:26.679 instead of email, or addition to email, that the product itself becomes central. 151 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:31.750 It becomes like the watering hole for the go to market organization. It's 152 00:12:31.789 --> 00:12:39.149 where everybody goes for for nourishment, and so it is demand capture, demand 153 00:12:39.909 --> 00:12:46.059 nurture and ultimately you can get to a point that the product itself offloads some 154 00:12:46.220 --> 00:12:48.899 of the sales effort, where there can be in APP purchases and you can 155 00:12:50.220 --> 00:12:54.299 buy without ever having talked spoken to a salesperson. In the end, the 156 00:12:54.379 --> 00:12:56.980 product needs to be more central to our motion than it is today, and 157 00:12:58.100 --> 00:13:01.490 that's what we're working out and out, both working on in our own marketing 158 00:13:01.929 --> 00:13:09.370 and our own sales, as well as working on enabling for others. Today's 159 00:13:09.409 --> 00:13:15.480 gross story is about Matillion, and industry leading provider of cloud based data integration 160 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:20.720 solutions for platforms like Amazon, snowflake and Google big create. Even though Matillion 161 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:26.480 is a high profiled company, they needed to increase their organic traffic and conversions, 162 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:31.509 so they turn to directive. 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The content efforts lead the demand efforts, so that we're 180 00:14:54.769 --> 00:15:01.090 not going high volume, low quality or all of the different problems that you 181 00:15:01.289 --> 00:15:05.809 outlined earlier? Yeah, it's so. It means that we are, and 182 00:15:05.929 --> 00:15:09.559 this is all getting ready to launch. So you'll start seeing this all come 183 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:15.279 out in the in the coming weeks. What we're doing is we're shifting some 184 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:20.320 dollars, from the meaningful dollars, from promoting our content and even creating our 185 00:15:20.429 --> 00:15:31.149 content, to making a product experience feel as like entertaining and frictionless and easy 186 00:15:31.269 --> 00:15:37.860 breezy as possible and then tracking all of the usage of that product and using 187 00:15:39.259 --> 00:15:46.299 those and setting thresholds in the usage of that product to designate when sales should 188 00:15:46.299 --> 00:15:50.049 be reaching out. We don't want to reach out to anybody until they've received 189 00:15:50.169 --> 00:15:56.929 value from pendos product, from penis free product, and so we are engineering 190 00:15:56.970 --> 00:16:03.730 our content around what value a evement looks like so that if you get to 191 00:16:03.850 --> 00:16:08.200 a point in using the product that we designate as that means that you've received 192 00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:11.799 value from it and therefore it's time for sales to go knocking on your door 193 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:15.679 a bit. Our content will align to that. So we will be defining 194 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:21.470 for the public, for our buyers, what value achievement looks like and when 195 00:16:21.509 --> 00:16:25.789 they experience that firsthand in the product, that's when it's going to trigger a 196 00:16:25.909 --> 00:16:30.470 sales motion. And so we're trying to do is both create content that is 197 00:16:30.549 --> 00:16:34.460 educational but aligned to what you're going to receive from Pendo, and then the 198 00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:40.700 pendo experience mapping to that. So there's a there's a there's a harmony here, 199 00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:47.139 and the sales motion will restate what that value capture is all about and 200 00:16:47.370 --> 00:16:52.210 will be timed to coincide with that value achievement, because pendo cells in APP 201 00:16:52.330 --> 00:16:57.529 software that tracks usage, and so we can use our own product to know 202 00:16:59.289 --> 00:17:03.079 when that value has been realized by the user and then set in motion of 203 00:17:03.160 --> 00:17:08.039 sales. Follow up what you touched on earlier, Joe, about not being 204 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:14.039 afraid to go a little bit more on the nose with with your expertise, 205 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.710 with your content. I was having a conversation with our our founder, James, 206 00:17:17.750 --> 00:17:22.670 the other day and we found that when when we publish BB marketing content 207 00:17:22.869 --> 00:17:26.869 on Linkedin to our personal profiles that has nothing to do with podcasting, depending 208 00:17:26.910 --> 00:17:32.299 on it, it may get some good engagement, but we see great engagement 209 00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:37.980 when we talk specifically about bb podcasting. Now that is our service and sometimes 210 00:17:37.019 --> 00:17:40.180 we don't, you know, we don't want to just beat that drum all 211 00:17:40.220 --> 00:17:42.059 the time. But at the same time, when we get very specific what 212 00:17:42.099 --> 00:17:47.529 you should name your podcast this and that, then people engage with it and 213 00:17:47.970 --> 00:17:51.210 expect that expertise. So while we are a service based business, not a 214 00:17:51.250 --> 00:17:56.049 product based business. I see that correlation in our own experience a bit, 215 00:17:56.089 --> 00:18:00.119 so I can validate that sum from what you're saying. The last question I 216 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.480 want to ask for you is just on for organizations that are starting to make 217 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:07.799 this shift, maybe some dues and don'ts for training that sales team in how 218 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:14.630 they should approach these product led leads a little bit differently. Is there? 219 00:18:14.750 --> 00:18:18.710 Are there things that you've been thinking about and training your sales team so that 220 00:18:18.910 --> 00:18:22.509 it's not hey, we're shifting this and sales is doing the same old thing 221 00:18:22.910 --> 00:18:26.940 and it's leading to to friction for the buyer? Yeah, I really answer 222 00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:32.980 that, but first I really like what you said about on Linkedin. Your 223 00:18:33.059 --> 00:18:38.380 content that is specific to podcasting tends to outperform your general be to be counsel, 224 00:18:40.099 --> 00:18:45.170 I call it internally. Just make them cry uncle. Rite like your 225 00:18:45.210 --> 00:18:51.650 audience will tell you when you're flouting too much. Get to the point that 226 00:18:51.730 --> 00:18:56.759 they cry uncle and back off. But your audience is telling you that you 227 00:18:56.839 --> 00:19:03.920 should be giving yourself permission to write about what you sell. Marketers, thought 228 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.759 leaders have been telling you to not do that. Listen to your audience, 229 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.710 not the thought leaders. And so yeah, make them cry uncle and they'll 230 00:19:11.710 --> 00:19:15.269 tell you when to back off. As far as the sales training look, 231 00:19:15.349 --> 00:19:21.869 the hardest thing to do, and and a partner at Andres and Horowitz, 232 00:19:22.029 --> 00:19:26.259 a big VC firm, just did a really important video on this topic. 233 00:19:26.619 --> 00:19:32.740 This is the hard part. Your classic sales follows up on leads that that 234 00:19:32.900 --> 00:19:38.170 playbook has been written. Your classic download the product, Swipe a credit card, 235 00:19:38.529 --> 00:19:47.289 continuously upgrade. That motion isn't that difficult either. The challenge is somebody 236 00:19:47.329 --> 00:19:53.559 has this frictionless experience in APP and then something happens that sets in motion a 237 00:19:53.599 --> 00:20:00.519 human calling them, and that is inherently discordant because the person used a free 238 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:06.039 product because they didn't want to talk to a human and now their use of 239 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:11.750 the free product sets in motion a human calling them. That's pretty topsy turvy, 240 00:20:11.670 --> 00:20:18.430 and so the key to get right is how does that human call feel 241 00:20:18.470 --> 00:20:22.059 helpful? We go all the way back to what gave rise to content marketing 242 00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:25.980 from the beginning. This the desire to be helpful. And so I said 243 00:20:26.339 --> 00:20:30.259 we're we're setting the thresholds. Is a value attainment. Will call when value 244 00:20:30.299 --> 00:20:34.220 has been realized. That's the right starting point. I believe that's right starting 245 00:20:34.220 --> 00:20:37.529 point. Others will do the starting point as where do they hit a wall, 246 00:20:38.490 --> 00:20:42.809 where do they appear to want to do something that that free product has 247 00:20:42.930 --> 00:20:45.890 disabled them from doing, and now call them and say, Oh yeah, 248 00:20:45.930 --> 00:20:51.200 you want to use that feature, slide your credit card or sign right here. 249 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:56.519 That, to me is a likely recipe for failure. What I want 250 00:20:56.599 --> 00:20:59.839 to do, and what we want our sales to the team to do, 251 00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:03.880 what our sales leader wants to do, is call in when we know that 252 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:07.869 person has enjoyed value and talk about how they've realized the value, how they 253 00:21:07.869 --> 00:21:14.029 might be quantifying the value and what the evolution of their relationship with Pendo might 254 00:21:14.109 --> 00:21:17.950 look like. What do they want to do next, and maybe it's enabled 255 00:21:17.990 --> 00:21:22.019 by the free product. Maybe they're haven't realized everything and we show them what 256 00:21:22.099 --> 00:21:25.740 else they can use in the free product and then they continue on their way. 257 00:21:26.339 --> 00:21:29.140 Or maybe it is something that they need to pay for and then we 258 00:21:29.180 --> 00:21:32.930 can talk about how we can expand their value achievement with us, but it 259 00:21:33.329 --> 00:21:40.009 needs to be contiguous with the experience they're already having in the free product. 260 00:21:40.329 --> 00:21:42.049 And if we do it, you can do it by pain or pleasure. 261 00:21:42.369 --> 00:21:47.049 If we do it by saying you've realized pain right here. You want to 262 00:21:47.130 --> 00:21:48.799 do this thing that we put a wall up, you want me to lower 263 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:53.519 the wall. You need to a me. That introduces friction and we're trying 264 00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:56.279 to go the other up. Man, what you're saying there, Joe, 265 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:00.950 really aligns with what Tim Rester was talking about. He's the CO author of 266 00:22:02.029 --> 00:22:06.150 the expansion sale. We had him on the podcast several weeks back talking about 267 00:22:06.150 --> 00:22:11.190 the differences that we have as salespeople or a csms or account managers in in 268 00:22:11.829 --> 00:22:15.779 renewals, up cells, price increases, those sorts of things, and how 269 00:22:15.980 --> 00:22:21.500 oftentimes we approach those with the same sales methodology, let's say challenger sale sort 270 00:22:21.539 --> 00:22:23.539 of thing. This is this is today. I'm trying to get you, 271 00:22:23.579 --> 00:22:27.500 you know, from your pain to your pleasure, when what we actually want 272 00:22:27.539 --> 00:22:33.769 to do is reinforce the value that they've seen so far, celebrate those wins 273 00:22:33.809 --> 00:22:37.410 and, as you put it, talk about the next evolution in the relationship, 274 00:22:37.490 --> 00:22:41.609 relationship with the product, relationship with the organization. And because they've already 275 00:22:41.809 --> 00:22:47.079 signed up and are using the product, it's more like that renewal or up 276 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:52.079 cell conversation, then it is a typical challenger sales sort of conversation. This 277 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:55.960 is where you're at. I'm going to get you over here. So we'll 278 00:22:55.960 --> 00:22:57.869 have to link to that in the the show notes of this episode because I 279 00:22:57.869 --> 00:23:00.470 think it goes right in line with what you're saying here. That's a really 280 00:23:00.549 --> 00:23:04.109 good point and I hadn't thought of that before, so thanks for raising it. 281 00:23:04.190 --> 00:23:11.150 It's that from free to paid after value has been attained is like a 282 00:23:11.230 --> 00:23:17.099 hybrid of sales motion and an expansion motion or account management motion. It is. 283 00:23:17.180 --> 00:23:19.539 That's a that's a really good point. Well, Joe. Like I 284 00:23:19.619 --> 00:23:23.539 said from the very good if anyone in bed be marketing is not yet following 285 00:23:23.579 --> 00:23:27.650 you, aware of you following along with some of your content, what's the 286 00:23:27.730 --> 00:23:30.009 best way for them to stay in touch with you or, if they want 287 00:23:30.009 --> 00:23:33.529 to reach out and learn more about what you guys are up to at Pendo, 288 00:23:33.809 --> 00:23:37.529 what's the best next steps for them to take after this episode? They 289 00:23:37.609 --> 00:23:42.599 can follow me at at Ja chure enough and they can come to either pendo 290 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:48.079 dot I, our website, or our editorial site, product craftcom. Product 291 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:55.359 craft is our editorial community of product managers who share their experiences and opinions on 292 00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:59.549 the craft to product management. Easy enough, all right. Well, Joe, 293 00:23:59.670 --> 00:24:02.670 thank you so much for being a repeat guest. I love what you're 294 00:24:02.670 --> 00:24:04.349 talking about today and I think it's going to be really helpful for our listener. 295 00:24:04.470 --> 00:24:10.700 So thank you again for joining us on the show. Thanks. It's 296 00:24:10.700 --> 00:24:15.099 sweetish. We're on a mission to create the most helpful content on the Internet 297 00:24:15.140 --> 00:24:18.619 for every job, function and industry on the planet. For the BB marketing 298 00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:22.380 industry, this show is how we're executing on that mission. If you know 299 00:24:22.420 --> 00:24:26.289 a marketing leader, that would be an awesome guest for this podcast. Shoot 300 00:24:26.289 --> 00:24:30.410 me a text message. Don't call me because I don't answer unknown numbers, 301 00:24:30.450 --> 00:24:33.450 but text me at four hundred and seven for and I know three and thirty 302 00:24:33.490 --> 00:24:37.450 two eight. Just shoot me their name, maybe a link to their linkedin 303 00:24:37.529 --> 00:24:40.759 profile, and I'd love to check them out to see if we can get 304 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:41.200 them on the show. Thanks a lot.
