Transcript
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Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media.
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Today I'm joined by Joe Turnoff.
He is an experience bb marketer,
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multi time CMO. He spent time
at MARTEC companies like help spot and Eloqui.
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If you're in BB marketing and you
don't know Joe, you definitely should.
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We're going to be talking with him
about product led growth today. Joe
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Is currently the CMO at Pendo.
Joe, welcome back to the show.
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Thanks, thanks for having me again. Absolutely so. We're going to get
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into what you've been thinking about when
it comes to product led growth, but
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there are a number of things that
have led you there, that have caused
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you to be so passionate about this
motion for marketing and organizations as a whole,
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and that is some of the problems
with the typical demandin motion that so
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many have gotten used to. Can
you tell us a little bit about why
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you're so passionate about this? Sure
so. I think a big chunk of
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my background was in content marketing and
at the time that came around, there
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was this opportunity to for marketers to
be more generally helpful, so content.
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To that point, I'm going back
to maybe two thousand and two thousand and
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ten, it kind of comet to
that point was really sales focused. It
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was collateral right. That was all
specific to the product and everybody knew that.
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Some market put their thumb on the
scale right. All of those vendor
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comparisons. Your company get all the
checks and your competitors only got a couple
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checks right, and so nobody really
believed it. And then along comes this
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inbound marketing movement that my friends have
up spot pioneered, and that was about
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like published materials that generally honest and
helpful and that went a long way.
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Went a long way in restoring marketings
credibility and it went a long way and
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help discovered and get discovered on on
the buyers terms. The funny thing happened.
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We sort of got addicted to that
as marketers and it became too much
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of a good thing. Problem and
overhyme, we started to publish content that
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was further and further afoot from what
the company did and sold. And I
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think we did that because our goals
became vanity goals, traffic goals, first
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time conversion goals, and so in
pursuit of those KPI's we started to publish
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content that had less and less to
do with the product until, like now,
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I see companies gaining book reviews and
they're not a publisher, right,
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software companies gating book reviews, gating
meeting. Put a form in front of
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and that like. Imagine being the
str on the other side of that call,
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right, you trying to sell software
and and the person you're talking to
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thinks you're a book critic. No
wonder, it doesn't work. And so
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we've created this enormous chasm between the
stories marketing tells in the product the company
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sells, and we need to fill
that gap. And in that gap is
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the emergence. We saw the emergence
of account based marketing start to fill that
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gap and now we're starting to see
product led growth start to fill that gap.
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How can the product itself be a
source of demand creation? Joy,
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as you and I were talking a
little bit offline, you mentioned this comment
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or a tweet. We couldn't even, you know, go back to see
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where was the your origin, but
you've been quoted a lot about the top
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of funnel content. Can you talk
a little bit about that quote and where
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you see us, where there's truth
and where we've kind of strayed from that
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when it comes to the relationship between
your top of funnel content and and what
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you do as an organization. Yeah, you know, I this thing just
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I said something once in it kind
of stuck and I believed it at the
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time, but I think now it's
like maybe more damaging than good, and
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it was something to the effect of
your top of funnel content should be divorced
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from your should be intellectually divorced from
your product but emotionally wedded to it.
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And what I meant is, like
it should have a product you feel to
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it. It should speak to oddly
topics that are associated with your product,
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but it should never touch on what
your product is. And now I think
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we have, as an industry,
taken that advice, not that everybody's read
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it, but like directionally taken that
advice too far and we've strayed so far
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from the product that we're setting our
invon sales team up for failure, and
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so I would like to change that. Like it should be intellectually wedded and
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emotionally wetted to your product. It
doesn't need to be like a piece of
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product collateral, but you shouldn't be
ashamed of your product. Right, you
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shouldn't try to avoid your product at
all costs. Your product needs to be
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more of a character in your brand
narrative and I gave kind of bad advice.
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The way I see it is,
you know, Donald Miller talks a
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lot about the stories that we tell. Often as marketers, we try to
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put ourselves, our product or our
company as the hero, when we should
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be the guide and our customer is
the hero. And in it kind of
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mixing that analogy in the way that
you're talking about incorporating your product as an
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element in in that story. It
should be a this is the tool,
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right, this is what I'm giving
as the guide to to that hero character.
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Do you think I'm kind of combining
what you and Donald Miller talking about
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in a good way there, or
my Alpha Bit? No, no,
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I don't think you're off at all. I think, like Gosh, we're
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just so at salutist right, like
it's either high volume leads or high quality,
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and it's either the customer is the
hero or the product is the hero.
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But Batman wouldn't be Batman without help
from a lot of people, and
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so the hero is the partnership between
the customer and the product. And when
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we look at it as the customers
the hero, we are subordinating our product.
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And what I'm trying to do is
not subordinate the product but also be
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respectful of everybody else in that narrative. It is the pairing of the right
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product with the right person in the
right organization at the right time. The
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rate set of goals like that cluster
is the hero of the story. And
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and so I think putting one stem
on the sale scale and say the customers
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should be the hero of the product
is a good thing to do. The
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hero the story is a good thing
to do because too many marketers are still
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sort of there's a navel gazing quality
right there where they can't look beyond their
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own self interest, and so forcing
them to pay attention to the customer as
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a hero. That's that's that's a
healthy pursuit. But I believe it's the
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juncture that's the hero. Yeah,
so what you were saying, Joe,
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about going too far. We're gating
things like book reviews and things that might
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be applicable to our audience. But
if you're going to do that, in
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my opinion you should just add value
and drive actual demands, not a not
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a lead. But the reason that
we're doing that is because of something that
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has emerged in our marketing motions that
you call the messy middle, where we
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overvalue those demo requests, that that
lead. We would rather have a higher
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volume of leads that close at a
very small percentage than a lower volume at
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a higher percentage. Can you talk
a little bit about more of those problems,
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a little bit further down the funnel
for that, SDR, and then
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we'll get into how can marketers change
their their motion to address that? Yeah,
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I think the messy middle has a
meaning. That isn't this I've been
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calling I've been doing a play on
the messy middle and just calling it internally
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the missing middle. A lot of
ms in this sentence. So I think
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what is played out is that we
have this false binary in marketing where we
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look at high volume, low quality
or low volume high quality. Pick one
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right and and and content marketing has
become high volume low quality. I am
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sure those gated book reviews get a
lot of downloads and I am certain that
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none of those become opportunities, or
very few. By none I mean you
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know, one or two percent.
On the other hand. I'm certain that
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company has a sale guided demo and
I am positive that that has a high
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conversion to up. It's just not
very elastic. Hard to get somebody to
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be willing to talk to sales.
You know what happens when you talk to
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sales. You never stop talking to
sales. They follow you like toilet paper
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in your shoe, and so nobody
wants to do that. And so you
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got this like this, this divide
where, as a marketing team, you
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can make your number and keep your
job by jinting up all these let's call
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them are quotes here, mql's.
There's no Q, just ml's right there.
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Yes, yeah, I love them. Or you can have low volume
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but like boost your quality score by
getting some of those demos and in the
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end you you know, you you
average them together and you look pretty good.
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But what we're all overlooking is what
I call internally the fifteen percenters.
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It's a somewhat elastic class of leads
that has a predictable conversion rate to opportunity
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and it's has elements of both.
You don't have to talk to sales because
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we know that's an emotional hurdle,
and so that suggest there's some more or
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elasticity to this, but the not
going to perform quite as well as somebody
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who does cross that threshold and talked
sales, but they're not going to be
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anywhere in there as elastic as gated
book reviews, right, because you can't
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mention the twenty authors names and get
all of them to tweet it and get
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some pre visibility. It's something in
the middle and that's what's missing. And
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I've been interviewing VP's of revenue marketing
for the last couple of months and in
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one way or another all interviews end
with that company realizing that they too have
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a missing middle. Yeah, so
talk to us about the next steps.
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We love to focus on what marketers
can do today or tomorrow to start addressing
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some of these problems, and I
think you've uncovered some that are just very
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consistent across several organizations. It's coming
up in all sorts of conversations and interviews
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you're having offline. What does that
lead us to? What what should we
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do about this now as we've realized
it? Joe, look, account base
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marketing has been one way to fill
it. Where are you, instead of
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having this wide mouth and narrow bottom
funnel. You try to have more of
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a cylinder right. That has in
that's effective, but it's effective for very
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specific type of product for a very
specific type of audience. What has emerged
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to sort of fill the void for
others is this notion of product led growth,
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that the product itself is shoulders the
load, or a portion of the
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load, for demand creation and demand
capture. So we've gone from like where
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we started this conversation, where I
said it was all about like collateral and
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markets didn't have trust. That's a
sales led org, going in the other
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direction, where it's all about lead
volume at any expense. That's a marketing
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led or, because sales frankly pays
the price for that. We're we're moving
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to is a product led org that
is enabled by sales and marketing, but
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the product itself becomes a source of
demand creation, it becomes a nurturing mechanism
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instead of email, or addition to
email, that the product itself becomes central.
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It becomes like the watering hole for
the go to market organization. It's
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where everybody goes for for nourishment,
and so it is demand capture, demand
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nurture and ultimately you can get to
a point that the product itself offloads some
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of the sales effort, where there
can be in APP purchases and you can
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buy without ever having talked spoken to
a salesperson. In the end, the
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product needs to be more central to
our motion than it is today, and
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back to the show. So let's
talk about that a little bit more granular,
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Joe. I think most people,
when they think product led, they
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see, okay, the pact on
sales is fewer unqualified, fewer ML's,
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as you put it. I love
that, and they're getting more qualified further
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along the buying process. Leads that
close at a higher rate. What does
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that mean then for marketing? How
have you guys changed your content to have
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the product lead? The content efforts
lead the demand efforts, so that we're
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not going high volume, low quality
or all of the different problems that you
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outlined earlier? Yeah, it's so. It means that we are, and
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this is all getting ready to launch. So you'll start seeing this all come
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out in the in the coming weeks. What we're doing is we're shifting some
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dollars, from the meaningful dollars,
from promoting our content and even creating our
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content, to making a product experience
feel as like entertaining and frictionless and easy
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breezy as possible and then tracking all
of the usage of that product and using
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those and setting thresholds in the usage
of that product to designate when sales should
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be reaching out. We don't want
to reach out to anybody until they've received
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value from pendos product, from penis
free product, and so we are engineering
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our content around what value a evement
looks like so that if you get to
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a point in using the product that
we designate as that means that you've received
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value from it and therefore it's time
for sales to go knocking on your door
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a bit. Our content will align
to that. So we will be defining
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for the public, for our buyers, what value achievement looks like and when
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they experience that firsthand in the product, that's when it's going to trigger a
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sales motion. And so we're trying
to do is both create content that is
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educational but aligned to what you're going
to receive from Pendo, and then the
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pendo experience mapping to that. So
there's a there's a there's a harmony here,
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and the sales motion will restate what
that value capture is all about and
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will be timed to coincide with that
value achievement, because pendo cells in APP
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software that tracks usage, and so
we can use our own product to know
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when that value has been realized by
the user and then set in motion of
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sales. Follow up what you touched
on earlier, Joe, about not being
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afraid to go a little bit more
on the nose with with your expertise,
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with your content. I was having
a conversation with our our founder, James,
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the other day and we found that
when when we publish BB marketing content
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on Linkedin to our personal profiles that
has nothing to do with podcasting, depending
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on it, it may get some
good engagement, but we see great engagement
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when we talk specifically about bb podcasting. Now that is our service and sometimes
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we don't, you know, we
don't want to just beat that drum all
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the time. But at the same
time, when we get very specific what
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you should name your podcast this and
that, then people engage with it and
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expect that expertise. So while we
are a service based business, not a
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product based business. I see that
correlation in our own experience a bit,
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so I can validate that sum from
what you're saying. The last question I
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want to ask for you is just
on for organizations that are starting to make
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this shift, maybe some dues and
don'ts for training that sales team in how
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they should approach these product led leads
a little bit differently. Is there?
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Are there things that you've been thinking
about and training your sales team so that
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it's not hey, we're shifting this
and sales is doing the same old thing
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and it's leading to to friction for
the buyer? Yeah, I really answer
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that, but first I really like
what you said about on Linkedin. Your
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content that is specific to podcasting tends
to outperform your general be to be counsel,
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I call it internally. Just make
them cry uncle. Rite like your
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audience will tell you when you're flouting
too much. Get to the point that
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they cry uncle and back off.
But your audience is telling you that you
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should be giving yourself permission to write
about what you sell. Marketers, thought
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leaders have been telling you to not
do that. Listen to your audience,
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not the thought leaders. And so
yeah, make them cry uncle and they'll
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tell you when to back off.
As far as the sales training look,
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the hardest thing to do, and
and a partner at Andres and Horowitz,
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a big VC firm, just did
a really important video on this topic.
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This is the hard part. Your
classic sales follows up on leads that that
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playbook has been written. Your classic
download the product, Swipe a credit card,
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continuously upgrade. That motion isn't that
difficult either. The challenge is somebody
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has this frictionless experience in APP and
then something happens that sets in motion a
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human calling them, and that is
inherently discordant because the person used a free
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product because they didn't want to talk
to a human and now their use of
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the free product sets in motion a
human calling them. That's pretty topsy turvy,
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and so the key to get right
is how does that human call feel
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helpful? We go all the way
back to what gave rise to content marketing
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from the beginning. This the desire
to be helpful. And so I said
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we're we're setting the thresholds. Is
a value attainment. Will call when value
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has been realized. That's the right
starting point. I believe that's right starting
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point. Others will do the starting
point as where do they hit a wall,
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where do they appear to want to
do something that that free product has
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disabled them from doing, and now
call them and say, Oh yeah,
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you want to use that feature,
slide your credit card or sign right here.
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That, to me is a likely
recipe for failure. What I want
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to do, and what we want
our sales to the team to do,
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what our sales leader wants to do, is call in when we know that
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person has enjoyed value and talk about
how they've realized the value, how they
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might be quantifying the value and what
the evolution of their relationship with Pendo might
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look like. What do they want
to do next, and maybe it's enabled
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by the free product. Maybe they're
haven't realized everything and we show them what
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else they can use in the free
product and then they continue on their way.
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Or maybe it is something that they
need to pay for and then we
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can talk about how we can expand
their value achievement with us, but it
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needs to be contiguous with the experience
they're already having in the free product.
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And if we do it, you
can do it by pain or pleasure.
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If we do it by saying you've
realized pain right here. You want to
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do this thing that we put a
wall up, you want me to lower
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the wall. You need to a
me. That introduces friction and we're trying
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to go the other up. Man, what you're saying there, Joe,
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really aligns with what Tim Rester was
talking about. He's the CO author of
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the expansion sale. We had him
on the podcast several weeks back talking about
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the differences that we have as salespeople
or a csms or account managers in in
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renewals, up cells, price increases, those sorts of things, and how
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oftentimes we approach those with the same
sales methodology, let's say challenger sale sort
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of thing. This is this is
today. I'm trying to get you,
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you know, from your pain to
your pleasure, when what we actually want
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to do is reinforce the value that
they've seen so far, celebrate those wins
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and, as you put it,
talk about the next evolution in the relationship,
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relationship with the product, relationship with
the organization. And because they've already
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signed up and are using the product, it's more like that renewal or up
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cell conversation, then it is a
typical challenger sales sort of conversation. This
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is where you're at. I'm going
to get you over here. So we'll
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have to link to that in the
the show notes of this episode because I
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think it goes right in line with
what you're saying here. That's a really
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good point and I hadn't thought of
that before, so thanks for raising it.
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It's that from free to paid after
value has been attained is like a
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hybrid of sales motion and an expansion
motion or account management motion. It is.
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That's a that's a really good point. Well, Joe. Like I
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said from the very good if anyone
in bed be marketing is not yet following
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you, aware of you following along
with some of your content, what's the
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best way for them to stay in
touch with you or, if they want
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to reach out and learn more about
what you guys are up to at Pendo,
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what's the best next steps for them
to take after this episode? They
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can follow me at at Ja chure
enough and they can come to either pendo
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dot I, our website, or
our editorial site, product craftcom. Product
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craft is our editorial community of product
managers who share their experiences and opinions on
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the craft to product management. Easy
enough, all right. Well, Joe,
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thank you so much for being a
repeat guest. I love what you're
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talking about today and I think it's
going to be really helpful for our listener.
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So thank you again for joining us
on the show. Thanks. It's
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sweetish. We're on a mission to
create the most helpful content on the Internet
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for every job, function and industry
on the planet. For the BB marketing
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industry, this show is how we're
executing on that mission. If you know
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a marketing leader, that would be
an awesome guest for this podcast. Shoot
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00:24:26.289 --> 00:24:30.410
me a text message. Don't call
me because I don't answer unknown numbers,
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00:24:30.450 --> 00:24:33.450
but text me at four hundred and
seven for and I know three and thirty
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00:24:33.490 --> 00:24:37.450
two eight. Just shoot me their
name, maybe a link to their linkedin
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00:24:37.529 --> 00:24:40.759
profile, and I'd love to check
them out to see if we can get
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them on the show. Thanks a
lot.