June 19, 2020

1281: How to Shift to Product-Led Growth (& Why It's Needed) w/ Joe Chernov

In this episode we talk to Joe Chernov, Chief Marketing Officer at Pendo.io.

If you like this episode, you'll probably also love:

Sales, Marketing, and the Unsung Heroes of Today’s Growing Companies with Joe Chernov

The 4 Moments You Must Win to Retain B2B Customers with Tim Riesterer


Directive drives search marketing results for software companies around the world, but you'll feel like their only client.

Get a custom proposal at directiveconsulting.com


Are you getting every B2B Growth episode in your favorite podcast player?

If not, you can easily subscribe & search past episodes here.

You can also find us on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.

Tired of just hearing our voices?

Now you can watch every episode of B2B Growth on YouTube.

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.559 --> 00:00:08.910 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media. 2 00:00:09.150 --> 00:00:13.349 Today I'm joined by Joe Turnoff. He is an experience bb marketer, 3 00:00:13.669 --> 00:00:18.750 multi time CMO. He spent time at MARTEC companies like help spot and Eloqui. 4 00:00:18.789 --> 00:00:22.019 If you're in BB marketing and you don't know Joe, you definitely should. 5 00:00:22.140 --> 00:00:25.260 We're going to be talking with him about product led growth today. Joe 6 00:00:25.379 --> 00:00:28.780 Is currently the CMO at Pendo. Joe, welcome back to the show. 7 00:00:29.179 --> 00:00:32.420 Thanks, thanks for having me again. Absolutely so. We're going to get 8 00:00:32.579 --> 00:00:37.130 into what you've been thinking about when it comes to product led growth, but 9 00:00:37.170 --> 00:00:40.929 there are a number of things that have led you there, that have caused 10 00:00:40.929 --> 00:00:45.969 you to be so passionate about this motion for marketing and organizations as a whole, 11 00:00:46.329 --> 00:00:50.960 and that is some of the problems with the typical demandin motion that so 12 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:54.600 many have gotten used to. Can you tell us a little bit about why 13 00:00:54.640 --> 00:01:00.079 you're so passionate about this? Sure so. I think a big chunk of 14 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:06.269 my background was in content marketing and at the time that came around, there 15 00:01:06.349 --> 00:01:12.870 was this opportunity to for marketers to be more generally helpful, so content. 16 00:01:12.989 --> 00:01:17.189 To that point, I'm going back to maybe two thousand and two thousand and 17 00:01:17.189 --> 00:01:22.420 ten, it kind of comet to that point was really sales focused. It 18 00:01:22.579 --> 00:01:26.579 was collateral right. That was all specific to the product and everybody knew that. 19 00:01:26.819 --> 00:01:30.019 Some market put their thumb on the scale right. All of those vendor 20 00:01:30.099 --> 00:01:34.849 comparisons. Your company get all the checks and your competitors only got a couple 21 00:01:34.930 --> 00:01:38.650 checks right, and so nobody really believed it. And then along comes this 22 00:01:38.769 --> 00:01:44.890 inbound marketing movement that my friends have up spot pioneered, and that was about 23 00:01:44.930 --> 00:01:49.920 like published materials that generally honest and helpful and that went a long way. 24 00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:56.200 Went a long way in restoring marketings credibility and it went a long way and 25 00:01:56.319 --> 00:02:02.230 help discovered and get discovered on on the buyers terms. The funny thing happened. 26 00:02:04.349 --> 00:02:07.430 We sort of got addicted to that as marketers and it became too much 27 00:02:07.430 --> 00:02:15.860 of a good thing. Problem and overhyme, we started to publish content that 28 00:02:16.060 --> 00:02:22.539 was further and further afoot from what the company did and sold. And I 29 00:02:22.659 --> 00:02:30.210 think we did that because our goals became vanity goals, traffic goals, first 30 00:02:30.250 --> 00:02:36.449 time conversion goals, and so in pursuit of those KPI's we started to publish 31 00:02:36.530 --> 00:02:39.969 content that had less and less to do with the product until, like now, 32 00:02:40.050 --> 00:02:45.039 I see companies gaining book reviews and they're not a publisher, right, 33 00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:47.919 software companies gating book reviews, gating meeting. Put a form in front of 34 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:53.840 and that like. Imagine being the str on the other side of that call, 35 00:02:53.080 --> 00:02:57.919 right, you trying to sell software and and the person you're talking to 36 00:02:58.360 --> 00:03:00.990 thinks you're a book critic. No wonder, it doesn't work. And so 37 00:03:01.150 --> 00:03:07.870 we've created this enormous chasm between the stories marketing tells in the product the company 38 00:03:07.949 --> 00:03:15.580 sells, and we need to fill that gap. And in that gap is 39 00:03:15.780 --> 00:03:19.979 the emergence. We saw the emergence of account based marketing start to fill that 40 00:03:20.099 --> 00:03:23.900 gap and now we're starting to see product led growth start to fill that gap. 41 00:03:24.180 --> 00:03:30.129 How can the product itself be a source of demand creation? Joy, 42 00:03:30.129 --> 00:03:32.610 as you and I were talking a little bit offline, you mentioned this comment 43 00:03:32.849 --> 00:03:37.169 or a tweet. We couldn't even, you know, go back to see 44 00:03:37.409 --> 00:03:39.650 where was the your origin, but you've been quoted a lot about the top 45 00:03:39.689 --> 00:03:44.080 of funnel content. Can you talk a little bit about that quote and where 46 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:47.520 you see us, where there's truth and where we've kind of strayed from that 47 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:53.240 when it comes to the relationship between your top of funnel content and and what 48 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:55.789 you do as an organization. Yeah, you know, I this thing just 49 00:03:55.990 --> 00:04:00.389 I said something once in it kind of stuck and I believed it at the 50 00:04:00.469 --> 00:04:03.909 time, but I think now it's like maybe more damaging than good, and 51 00:04:04.430 --> 00:04:09.990 it was something to the effect of your top of funnel content should be divorced 52 00:04:10.219 --> 00:04:15.620 from your should be intellectually divorced from your product but emotionally wedded to it. 53 00:04:15.100 --> 00:04:18.420 And what I meant is, like it should have a product you feel to 54 00:04:18.579 --> 00:04:24.689 it. It should speak to oddly topics that are associated with your product, 55 00:04:25.009 --> 00:04:29.329 but it should never touch on what your product is. And now I think 56 00:04:29.689 --> 00:04:32.490 we have, as an industry, taken that advice, not that everybody's read 57 00:04:32.529 --> 00:04:38.170 it, but like directionally taken that advice too far and we've strayed so far 58 00:04:38.209 --> 00:04:43.959 from the product that we're setting our invon sales team up for failure, and 59 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:47.560 so I would like to change that. Like it should be intellectually wedded and 60 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:54.110 emotionally wetted to your product. It doesn't need to be like a piece of 61 00:04:54.149 --> 00:04:57.589 product collateral, but you shouldn't be ashamed of your product. Right, you 62 00:04:57.629 --> 00:05:01.870 shouldn't try to avoid your product at all costs. Your product needs to be 63 00:05:02.029 --> 00:05:06.459 more of a character in your brand narrative and I gave kind of bad advice. 64 00:05:08.860 --> 00:05:11.620 The way I see it is, you know, Donald Miller talks a 65 00:05:11.699 --> 00:05:15.459 lot about the stories that we tell. Often as marketers, we try to 66 00:05:15.620 --> 00:05:20.100 put ourselves, our product or our company as the hero, when we should 67 00:05:20.100 --> 00:05:24.410 be the guide and our customer is the hero. And in it kind of 68 00:05:24.490 --> 00:05:30.009 mixing that analogy in the way that you're talking about incorporating your product as an 69 00:05:30.129 --> 00:05:32.810 element in in that story. It should be a this is the tool, 70 00:05:33.129 --> 00:05:39.759 right, this is what I'm giving as the guide to to that hero character. 71 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:43.360 Do you think I'm kind of combining what you and Donald Miller talking about 72 00:05:43.360 --> 00:05:45.720 in a good way there, or my Alpha Bit? No, no, 73 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:47.839 I don't think you're off at all. I think, like Gosh, we're 74 00:05:47.879 --> 00:05:54.589 just so at salutist right, like it's either high volume leads or high quality, 75 00:05:54.990 --> 00:05:59.110 and it's either the customer is the hero or the product is the hero. 76 00:05:59.870 --> 00:06:03.300 But Batman wouldn't be Batman without help from a lot of people, and 77 00:06:03.620 --> 00:06:12.139 so the hero is the partnership between the customer and the product. And when 78 00:06:12.220 --> 00:06:16.579 we look at it as the customers the hero, we are subordinating our product. 79 00:06:17.220 --> 00:06:21.129 And what I'm trying to do is not subordinate the product but also be 80 00:06:21.329 --> 00:06:27.850 respectful of everybody else in that narrative. It is the pairing of the right 81 00:06:28.009 --> 00:06:31.449 product with the right person in the right organization at the right time. The 82 00:06:31.490 --> 00:06:36.879 rate set of goals like that cluster is the hero of the story. And 83 00:06:38.120 --> 00:06:41.720 and so I think putting one stem on the sale scale and say the customers 84 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:44.000 should be the hero of the product is a good thing to do. The 85 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:47.029 hero the story is a good thing to do because too many marketers are still 86 00:06:47.029 --> 00:06:54.029 sort of there's a navel gazing quality right there where they can't look beyond their 87 00:06:54.069 --> 00:06:59.350 own self interest, and so forcing them to pay attention to the customer as 88 00:06:59.389 --> 00:07:03.939 a hero. That's that's that's a healthy pursuit. But I believe it's the 89 00:07:04.019 --> 00:07:09.100 juncture that's the hero. Yeah, so what you were saying, Joe, 90 00:07:09.339 --> 00:07:15.339 about going too far. We're gating things like book reviews and things that might 91 00:07:15.379 --> 00:07:18.610 be applicable to our audience. But if you're going to do that, in 92 00:07:18.689 --> 00:07:24.370 my opinion you should just add value and drive actual demands, not a not 93 00:07:24.529 --> 00:07:28.649 a lead. But the reason that we're doing that is because of something that 94 00:07:28.769 --> 00:07:32.160 has emerged in our marketing motions that you call the messy middle, where we 95 00:07:32.439 --> 00:07:38.759 overvalue those demo requests, that that lead. We would rather have a higher 96 00:07:38.800 --> 00:07:43.560 volume of leads that close at a very small percentage than a lower volume at 97 00:07:43.639 --> 00:07:46.509 a higher percentage. Can you talk a little bit about more of those problems, 98 00:07:46.589 --> 00:07:49.550 a little bit further down the funnel for that, SDR, and then 99 00:07:49.589 --> 00:07:56.470 we'll get into how can marketers change their their motion to address that? Yeah, 100 00:07:57.189 --> 00:08:01.259 I think the messy middle has a meaning. That isn't this I've been 101 00:08:01.300 --> 00:08:05.019 calling I've been doing a play on the messy middle and just calling it internally 102 00:08:05.060 --> 00:08:07.579 the missing middle. A lot of ms in this sentence. So I think 103 00:08:07.660 --> 00:08:13.850 what is played out is that we have this false binary in marketing where we 104 00:08:13.930 --> 00:08:20.050 look at high volume, low quality or low volume high quality. Pick one 105 00:08:20.089 --> 00:08:26.009 right and and and content marketing has become high volume low quality. I am 106 00:08:26.089 --> 00:08:31.240 sure those gated book reviews get a lot of downloads and I am certain that 107 00:08:31.320 --> 00:08:35.960 none of those become opportunities, or very few. By none I mean you 108 00:08:37.080 --> 00:08:41.080 know, one or two percent. On the other hand. I'm certain that 109 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:48.590 company has a sale guided demo and I am positive that that has a high 110 00:08:48.669 --> 00:08:52.509 conversion to up. It's just not very elastic. Hard to get somebody to 111 00:08:52.669 --> 00:08:56.179 be willing to talk to sales. You know what happens when you talk to 112 00:08:56.259 --> 00:09:01.019 sales. You never stop talking to sales. They follow you like toilet paper 113 00:09:01.059 --> 00:09:05.139 in your shoe, and so nobody wants to do that. And so you 114 00:09:05.179 --> 00:09:09.700 got this like this, this divide where, as a marketing team, you 115 00:09:09.820 --> 00:09:13.730 can make your number and keep your job by jinting up all these let's call 116 00:09:13.809 --> 00:09:18.529 them are quotes here, mql's. There's no Q, just ml's right there. 117 00:09:18.730 --> 00:09:24.049 Yes, yeah, I love them. Or you can have low volume 118 00:09:24.129 --> 00:09:28.440 but like boost your quality score by getting some of those demos and in the 119 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:33.320 end you you know, you you average them together and you look pretty good. 120 00:09:33.320 --> 00:09:39.429 But what we're all overlooking is what I call internally the fifteen percenters. 121 00:09:41.470 --> 00:09:52.980 It's a somewhat elastic class of leads that has a predictable conversion rate to opportunity 122 00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:58.500 and it's has elements of both. You don't have to talk to sales because 123 00:09:58.580 --> 00:10:03.659 we know that's an emotional hurdle, and so that suggest there's some more or 124 00:10:03.659 --> 00:10:09.809 elasticity to this, but the not going to perform quite as well as somebody 125 00:10:09.850 --> 00:10:15.809 who does cross that threshold and talked sales, but they're not going to be 126 00:10:15.850 --> 00:10:20.370 anywhere in there as elastic as gated book reviews, right, because you can't 127 00:10:20.370 --> 00:10:24.080 mention the twenty authors names and get all of them to tweet it and get 128 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.559 some pre visibility. It's something in the middle and that's what's missing. And 129 00:10:28.679 --> 00:10:35.600 I've been interviewing VP's of revenue marketing for the last couple of months and in 130 00:10:35.750 --> 00:10:39.990 one way or another all interviews end with that company realizing that they too have 131 00:10:41.070 --> 00:10:45.269 a missing middle. Yeah, so talk to us about the next steps. 132 00:10:45.309 --> 00:10:50.700 We love to focus on what marketers can do today or tomorrow to start addressing 133 00:10:50.899 --> 00:10:54.340 some of these problems, and I think you've uncovered some that are just very 134 00:10:56.100 --> 00:11:01.259 consistent across several organizations. It's coming up in all sorts of conversations and interviews 135 00:11:01.539 --> 00:11:05.169 you're having offline. What does that lead us to? What what should we 136 00:11:05.210 --> 00:11:09.289 do about this now as we've realized it? Joe, look, account base 137 00:11:09.370 --> 00:11:13.049 marketing has been one way to fill it. Where are you, instead of 138 00:11:13.090 --> 00:11:18.840 having this wide mouth and narrow bottom funnel. You try to have more of 139 00:11:18.879 --> 00:11:24.039 a cylinder right. That has in that's effective, but it's effective for very 140 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:30.679 specific type of product for a very specific type of audience. What has emerged 141 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:35.309 to sort of fill the void for others is this notion of product led growth, 142 00:11:35.190 --> 00:11:41.710 that the product itself is shoulders the load, or a portion of the 143 00:11:41.789 --> 00:11:46.299 load, for demand creation and demand capture. So we've gone from like where 144 00:11:46.340 --> 00:11:50.740 we started this conversation, where I said it was all about like collateral and 145 00:11:50.860 --> 00:11:54.340 markets didn't have trust. That's a sales led org, going in the other 146 00:11:54.460 --> 00:12:01.419 direction, where it's all about lead volume at any expense. That's a marketing 147 00:12:01.490 --> 00:12:05.450 led or, because sales frankly pays the price for that. We're we're moving 148 00:12:05.610 --> 00:12:13.250 to is a product led org that is enabled by sales and marketing, but 149 00:12:13.370 --> 00:12:22.480 the product itself becomes a source of demand creation, it becomes a nurturing mechanism 150 00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:26.679 instead of email, or addition to email, that the product itself becomes central. 151 00:12:26.720 --> 00:12:31.750 It becomes like the watering hole for the go to market organization. It's 152 00:12:31.789 --> 00:12:39.149 where everybody goes for for nourishment, and so it is demand capture, demand 153 00:12:39.909 --> 00:12:46.059 nurture and ultimately you can get to a point that the product itself offloads some 154 00:12:46.220 --> 00:12:48.899 of the sales effort, where there can be in APP purchases and you can 155 00:12:50.220 --> 00:12:54.299 buy without ever having talked spoken to a salesperson. In the end, the 156 00:12:54.379 --> 00:12:56.980 product needs to be more central to our motion than it is today, and 157 00:12:58.100 --> 00:13:01.490 that's what we're working out and out, both working on in our own marketing 158 00:13:01.929 --> 00:13:09.370 and our own sales, as well as working on enabling for others. Today's 159 00:13:09.409 --> 00:13:15.480 gross story is about Matillion, and industry leading provider of cloud based data integration 160 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:20.720 solutions for platforms like Amazon, snowflake and Google big create. Even though Matillion 161 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:26.480 is a high profiled company, they needed to increase their organic traffic and conversions, 162 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:31.509 so they turn to directive. The directive team grew matillion's digital presence by 163 00:13:31.629 --> 00:13:37.429 concentrating on brand awareness, link building and conversion rate optimization, leading to more 164 00:13:37.470 --> 00:13:43.019 visitors and longer time spent on matillion's pages. Matillion saw a two thousand seven 165 00:13:43.059 --> 00:13:48.299 hundred and fifty percent increase in mqls in just a single quarter. Not only 166 00:13:48.419 --> 00:13:52.340 that, organic conversions hit a hundred and sixty four percent compared to the previous 167 00:13:52.340 --> 00:13:56.809 quarter. And if you want to learn how to drive these kinds of results. 168 00:13:56.090 --> 00:14:01.490 You need to check out their digital marketing course institute. The institute course 169 00:14:01.610 --> 00:14:05.850 teaches you, step by step, click by click, all the necessary skills 170 00:14:05.929 --> 00:14:11.399 required to launch your own successful digital marketing campaigns. Sign up today at Directive 171 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:18.039 Consultingcom Institute and to get your first four lessons completely free. Once again, 172 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:24.350 that's directive consultingcom institute to get for free lessons. All right, let's get 173 00:14:24.389 --> 00:14:28.389 back to the show. So let's talk about that a little bit more granular, 174 00:14:28.429 --> 00:14:31.629 Joe. I think most people, when they think product led, they 175 00:14:31.710 --> 00:14:37.669 see, okay, the pact on sales is fewer unqualified, fewer ML's, 176 00:14:37.710 --> 00:14:41.940 as you put it. I love that, and they're getting more qualified further 177 00:14:41.100 --> 00:14:46.940 along the buying process. Leads that close at a higher rate. What does 178 00:14:46.019 --> 00:14:50.220 that mean then for marketing? How have you guys changed your content to have 179 00:14:50.379 --> 00:14:54.730 the product lead? The content efforts lead the demand efforts, so that we're 180 00:14:54.769 --> 00:15:01.090 not going high volume, low quality or all of the different problems that you 181 00:15:01.289 --> 00:15:05.809 outlined earlier? Yeah, it's so. It means that we are, and 182 00:15:05.929 --> 00:15:09.559 this is all getting ready to launch. So you'll start seeing this all come 183 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:15.279 out in the in the coming weeks. What we're doing is we're shifting some 184 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:20.320 dollars, from the meaningful dollars, from promoting our content and even creating our 185 00:15:20.429 --> 00:15:31.149 content, to making a product experience feel as like entertaining and frictionless and easy 186 00:15:31.269 --> 00:15:37.860 breezy as possible and then tracking all of the usage of that product and using 187 00:15:39.259 --> 00:15:46.299 those and setting thresholds in the usage of that product to designate when sales should 188 00:15:46.299 --> 00:15:50.049 be reaching out. We don't want to reach out to anybody until they've received 189 00:15:50.169 --> 00:15:56.929 value from pendos product, from penis free product, and so we are engineering 190 00:15:56.970 --> 00:16:03.730 our content around what value a evement looks like so that if you get to 191 00:16:03.850 --> 00:16:08.200 a point in using the product that we designate as that means that you've received 192 00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:11.799 value from it and therefore it's time for sales to go knocking on your door 193 00:16:11.879 --> 00:16:15.679 a bit. Our content will align to that. So we will be defining 194 00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:21.470 for the public, for our buyers, what value achievement looks like and when 195 00:16:21.509 --> 00:16:25.789 they experience that firsthand in the product, that's when it's going to trigger a 196 00:16:25.909 --> 00:16:30.470 sales motion. And so we're trying to do is both create content that is 197 00:16:30.549 --> 00:16:34.460 educational but aligned to what you're going to receive from Pendo, and then the 198 00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:40.700 pendo experience mapping to that. So there's a there's a there's a harmony here, 199 00:16:41.100 --> 00:16:47.139 and the sales motion will restate what that value capture is all about and 200 00:16:47.370 --> 00:16:52.210 will be timed to coincide with that value achievement, because pendo cells in APP 201 00:16:52.330 --> 00:16:57.529 software that tracks usage, and so we can use our own product to know 202 00:16:59.289 --> 00:17:03.079 when that value has been realized by the user and then set in motion of 203 00:17:03.160 --> 00:17:08.039 sales. Follow up what you touched on earlier, Joe, about not being 204 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:14.039 afraid to go a little bit more on the nose with with your expertise, 205 00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.710 with your content. I was having a conversation with our our founder, James, 206 00:17:17.750 --> 00:17:22.670 the other day and we found that when when we publish BB marketing content 207 00:17:22.869 --> 00:17:26.869 on Linkedin to our personal profiles that has nothing to do with podcasting, depending 208 00:17:26.910 --> 00:17:32.299 on it, it may get some good engagement, but we see great engagement 209 00:17:32.339 --> 00:17:37.980 when we talk specifically about bb podcasting. Now that is our service and sometimes 210 00:17:37.019 --> 00:17:40.180 we don't, you know, we don't want to just beat that drum all 211 00:17:40.220 --> 00:17:42.059 the time. But at the same time, when we get very specific what 212 00:17:42.099 --> 00:17:47.529 you should name your podcast this and that, then people engage with it and 213 00:17:47.970 --> 00:17:51.210 expect that expertise. So while we are a service based business, not a 214 00:17:51.250 --> 00:17:56.049 product based business. I see that correlation in our own experience a bit, 215 00:17:56.089 --> 00:18:00.119 so I can validate that sum from what you're saying. The last question I 216 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:03.480 want to ask for you is just on for organizations that are starting to make 217 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:07.799 this shift, maybe some dues and don'ts for training that sales team in how 218 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:14.630 they should approach these product led leads a little bit differently. Is there? 219 00:18:14.750 --> 00:18:18.710 Are there things that you've been thinking about and training your sales team so that 220 00:18:18.910 --> 00:18:22.509 it's not hey, we're shifting this and sales is doing the same old thing 221 00:18:22.910 --> 00:18:26.940 and it's leading to to friction for the buyer? Yeah, I really answer 222 00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:32.980 that, but first I really like what you said about on Linkedin. Your 223 00:18:33.059 --> 00:18:38.380 content that is specific to podcasting tends to outperform your general be to be counsel, 224 00:18:40.099 --> 00:18:45.170 I call it internally. Just make them cry uncle. Rite like your 225 00:18:45.210 --> 00:18:51.650 audience will tell you when you're flouting too much. Get to the point that 226 00:18:51.730 --> 00:18:56.759 they cry uncle and back off. But your audience is telling you that you 227 00:18:56.839 --> 00:19:03.920 should be giving yourself permission to write about what you sell. Marketers, thought 228 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.759 leaders have been telling you to not do that. Listen to your audience, 229 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:11.710 not the thought leaders. And so yeah, make them cry uncle and they'll 230 00:19:11.710 --> 00:19:15.269 tell you when to back off. As far as the sales training look, 231 00:19:15.349 --> 00:19:21.869 the hardest thing to do, and and a partner at Andres and Horowitz, 232 00:19:22.029 --> 00:19:26.259 a big VC firm, just did a really important video on this topic. 233 00:19:26.619 --> 00:19:32.740 This is the hard part. Your classic sales follows up on leads that that 234 00:19:32.900 --> 00:19:38.170 playbook has been written. Your classic download the product, Swipe a credit card, 235 00:19:38.529 --> 00:19:47.289 continuously upgrade. That motion isn't that difficult either. The challenge is somebody 236 00:19:47.329 --> 00:19:53.559 has this frictionless experience in APP and then something happens that sets in motion a 237 00:19:53.599 --> 00:20:00.519 human calling them, and that is inherently discordant because the person used a free 238 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:06.039 product because they didn't want to talk to a human and now their use of 239 00:20:06.160 --> 00:20:11.750 the free product sets in motion a human calling them. That's pretty topsy turvy, 240 00:20:11.670 --> 00:20:18.430 and so the key to get right is how does that human call feel 241 00:20:18.470 --> 00:20:22.059 helpful? We go all the way back to what gave rise to content marketing 242 00:20:22.140 --> 00:20:25.980 from the beginning. This the desire to be helpful. And so I said 243 00:20:26.339 --> 00:20:30.259 we're we're setting the thresholds. Is a value attainment. Will call when value 244 00:20:30.299 --> 00:20:34.220 has been realized. That's the right starting point. I believe that's right starting 245 00:20:34.220 --> 00:20:37.529 point. Others will do the starting point as where do they hit a wall, 246 00:20:38.490 --> 00:20:42.809 where do they appear to want to do something that that free product has 247 00:20:42.930 --> 00:20:45.890 disabled them from doing, and now call them and say, Oh yeah, 248 00:20:45.930 --> 00:20:51.200 you want to use that feature, slide your credit card or sign right here. 249 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:56.519 That, to me is a likely recipe for failure. What I want 250 00:20:56.599 --> 00:20:59.839 to do, and what we want our sales to the team to do, 251 00:20:59.920 --> 00:21:03.880 what our sales leader wants to do, is call in when we know that 252 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:07.869 person has enjoyed value and talk about how they've realized the value, how they 253 00:21:07.869 --> 00:21:14.029 might be quantifying the value and what the evolution of their relationship with Pendo might 254 00:21:14.109 --> 00:21:17.950 look like. What do they want to do next, and maybe it's enabled 255 00:21:17.990 --> 00:21:22.019 by the free product. Maybe they're haven't realized everything and we show them what 256 00:21:22.099 --> 00:21:25.740 else they can use in the free product and then they continue on their way. 257 00:21:26.339 --> 00:21:29.140 Or maybe it is something that they need to pay for and then we 258 00:21:29.180 --> 00:21:32.930 can talk about how we can expand their value achievement with us, but it 259 00:21:33.329 --> 00:21:40.009 needs to be contiguous with the experience they're already having in the free product. 260 00:21:40.329 --> 00:21:42.049 And if we do it, you can do it by pain or pleasure. 261 00:21:42.369 --> 00:21:47.049 If we do it by saying you've realized pain right here. You want to 262 00:21:47.130 --> 00:21:48.799 do this thing that we put a wall up, you want me to lower 263 00:21:48.839 --> 00:21:53.519 the wall. You need to a me. That introduces friction and we're trying 264 00:21:53.559 --> 00:21:56.279 to go the other up. Man, what you're saying there, Joe, 265 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:00.950 really aligns with what Tim Rester was talking about. He's the CO author of 266 00:22:02.029 --> 00:22:06.150 the expansion sale. We had him on the podcast several weeks back talking about 267 00:22:06.150 --> 00:22:11.190 the differences that we have as salespeople or a csms or account managers in in 268 00:22:11.829 --> 00:22:15.779 renewals, up cells, price increases, those sorts of things, and how 269 00:22:15.980 --> 00:22:21.500 oftentimes we approach those with the same sales methodology, let's say challenger sale sort 270 00:22:21.539 --> 00:22:23.539 of thing. This is this is today. I'm trying to get you, 271 00:22:23.579 --> 00:22:27.500 you know, from your pain to your pleasure, when what we actually want 272 00:22:27.539 --> 00:22:33.769 to do is reinforce the value that they've seen so far, celebrate those wins 273 00:22:33.809 --> 00:22:37.410 and, as you put it, talk about the next evolution in the relationship, 274 00:22:37.490 --> 00:22:41.609 relationship with the product, relationship with the organization. And because they've already 275 00:22:41.809 --> 00:22:47.079 signed up and are using the product, it's more like that renewal or up 276 00:22:47.160 --> 00:22:52.079 cell conversation, then it is a typical challenger sales sort of conversation. This 277 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:55.960 is where you're at. I'm going to get you over here. So we'll 278 00:22:55.960 --> 00:22:57.869 have to link to that in the the show notes of this episode because I 279 00:22:57.869 --> 00:23:00.470 think it goes right in line with what you're saying here. That's a really 280 00:23:00.549 --> 00:23:04.109 good point and I hadn't thought of that before, so thanks for raising it. 281 00:23:04.190 --> 00:23:11.150 It's that from free to paid after value has been attained is like a 282 00:23:11.230 --> 00:23:17.099 hybrid of sales motion and an expansion motion or account management motion. It is. 283 00:23:17.180 --> 00:23:19.539 That's a that's a really good point. Well, Joe. Like I 284 00:23:19.619 --> 00:23:23.539 said from the very good if anyone in bed be marketing is not yet following 285 00:23:23.579 --> 00:23:27.650 you, aware of you following along with some of your content, what's the 286 00:23:27.730 --> 00:23:30.009 best way for them to stay in touch with you or, if they want 287 00:23:30.009 --> 00:23:33.529 to reach out and learn more about what you guys are up to at Pendo, 288 00:23:33.809 --> 00:23:37.529 what's the best next steps for them to take after this episode? They 289 00:23:37.609 --> 00:23:42.599 can follow me at at Ja chure enough and they can come to either pendo 290 00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:48.079 dot I, our website, or our editorial site, product craftcom. Product 291 00:23:48.119 --> 00:23:55.359 craft is our editorial community of product managers who share their experiences and opinions on 292 00:23:55.519 --> 00:23:59.549 the craft to product management. Easy enough, all right. Well, Joe, 293 00:23:59.670 --> 00:24:02.670 thank you so much for being a repeat guest. I love what you're 294 00:24:02.670 --> 00:24:04.349 talking about today and I think it's going to be really helpful for our listener. 295 00:24:04.470 --> 00:24:10.700 So thank you again for joining us on the show. Thanks. It's 296 00:24:10.700 --> 00:24:15.099 sweetish. We're on a mission to create the most helpful content on the Internet 297 00:24:15.140 --> 00:24:18.619 for every job, function and industry on the planet. For the BB marketing 298 00:24:18.660 --> 00:24:22.380 industry, this show is how we're executing on that mission. If you know 299 00:24:22.420 --> 00:24:26.289 a marketing leader, that would be an awesome guest for this podcast. Shoot 300 00:24:26.289 --> 00:24:30.410 me a text message. Don't call me because I don't answer unknown numbers, 301 00:24:30.450 --> 00:24:33.450 but text me at four hundred and seven for and I know three and thirty 302 00:24:33.490 --> 00:24:37.450 two eight. Just shoot me their name, maybe a link to their linkedin 303 00:24:37.529 --> 00:24:40.759 profile, and I'd love to check them out to see if we can get 304 00:24:40.799 --> 00:24:41.200 them on the show. Thanks a lot.