1299: The 1 Important Email Stat You're Overlooking w/ Nick Dujnic

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.470 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media. 2 00:00:08.669 --> 00:00:12.269 I'm joined today by Nick Dutchnick. He's the VP of marketing over at 3 00:00:12.349 --> 00:00:15.589 live intent. Nick. How's it going today, man? Oh, you 4 00:00:15.669 --> 00:00:20.629 know, just living the dream. It's absolutely that, the shelter in place 5 00:00:20.710 --> 00:00:23.780 sort of like stay at home all day sort of dream that I've had. 6 00:00:24.460 --> 00:00:27.420 Yeah, you just been dreaming about that forever. You and I were just 7 00:00:27.539 --> 00:00:32.539 talking about, you know, doing the marvel movie marathon, chronologically finding ways 8 00:00:32.939 --> 00:00:36.890 to fill the time, and you know that's that's been life lately. Huh. 9 00:00:37.170 --> 00:00:40.530 Yeah, right, like nothing like a series of movies that have been 10 00:00:40.570 --> 00:00:44.250 released over fifteen years. They reach an average of three hours long to just 11 00:00:44.850 --> 00:00:48.450 sort to eat away. So that time makes me wonder. What were we 12 00:00:48.530 --> 00:00:51.240 doing before? I think it's most eating, right. Like. Yeah, 13 00:00:51.320 --> 00:00:54.479 absolutely, we got more time to listen to podcast people are like, Oh, 14 00:00:54.479 --> 00:00:57.240 I'm not commuting anymore, I can't listen to podcasts. Like you can 15 00:00:57.280 --> 00:01:00.039 listen to more while you're doing the dishes, walking the dog, doing all 16 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:03.439 the things, working out instead of commuting. Right, we're going to be 17 00:01:03.560 --> 00:01:07.510 talking about how you can reach folks, whether they're sitting on the couch binging 18 00:01:07.590 --> 00:01:11.230 Netflix or they're at their computer or they're hopping on and off zoom calls. 19 00:01:11.629 --> 00:01:17.030 Email is still such a you know, I've seen people proclaim email is dead 20 00:01:17.230 --> 00:01:21.180 and I just passionately disagree with that. James, our founder, and I 21 00:01:21.219 --> 00:01:23.980 were just talking the other day that, man, there's not a lot of 22 00:01:23.099 --> 00:01:29.140 people really doing email well in B tob and so you're going to be breaking 23 00:01:29.180 --> 00:01:34.290 down some tactics that beb marketers can use to engage their audience better via email 24 00:01:34.370 --> 00:01:38.769 drive more to their sales teams. To kick things off, give us a 25 00:01:38.810 --> 00:01:42.170 little bit of background. Why is this email channel something you and the team 26 00:01:42.209 --> 00:01:47.519 at live intent are so passionate about? Neck I think because it's like, 27 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:49.359 I mean, honestly, it's what we were is what we were built on. 28 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:53.519 Is So, just for for context here, you know, live and 29 00:01:53.560 --> 00:02:00.239 tent, essentially we are a full on sort of programmatic advertising stack for the 30 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:06.230 email channel. So we helped publishers to monetize their their their email newsletters and 31 00:02:06.349 --> 00:02:08.509 actually serve ads in there and, you know, get sort of like build 32 00:02:08.550 --> 00:02:13.710 like an incremental revenue source for otherwise it might have just been sort of like 33 00:02:13.789 --> 00:02:17.539 a lost sort of money pit and then on the marketer side, we helped 34 00:02:17.539 --> 00:02:22.340 them to reach those audiences, which are highly engaged, highly valuable audiences, 35 00:02:23.020 --> 00:02:25.580 through advertising same way that they would do on the web, or maybe through 36 00:02:25.620 --> 00:02:30.250 like a facebook, and being in that sort of like we've seen. And 37 00:02:30.370 --> 00:02:32.610 like we made a bet very early on that email was not going to go 38 00:02:32.770 --> 00:02:36.889 away. I mean because if you think about it, like I like to 39 00:02:36.969 --> 00:02:39.930 say that, you know, what made the smartphone smart was the email application, 40 00:02:40.169 --> 00:02:43.330 right, like, so, what was the difference between a normal cell 41 00:02:43.370 --> 00:02:46.319 phone and a blackberry? It was the fact that you could get your email 42 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:47.840 on it. It was that. I mean, besides that little snake game 43 00:02:47.840 --> 00:02:51.639 that you could play. It was but that cause you could do on the 44 00:02:51.800 --> 00:02:54.680 original phones. To we're going way back and people are I'm remember all my 45 00:02:54.759 --> 00:02:58.750 original note Kia and I'm like connect, yeah, I think I could do 46 00:02:58.870 --> 00:03:00.310 the snake. Yeah. So, and I mean, and that's that's why 47 00:03:00.469 --> 00:03:04.710 email sort of become like one of the most important channels that you can possibly 48 00:03:05.110 --> 00:03:07.789 engage with, as it's just it is everywhere with you. If you think 49 00:03:07.789 --> 00:03:12.430 about it, like what do you do when you're waiting in line somewhere? 50 00:03:12.469 --> 00:03:15.500 When you used to wait in line for things. What do you do first 51 00:03:15.500 --> 00:03:16.460 thing that you wake up in the morning? I would bet that one of 52 00:03:16.460 --> 00:03:20.219 the first things you do is actually check your email, because that's a pretty 53 00:03:20.219 --> 00:03:23.979 common thing among people. I think adobe had a stat where people spend an 54 00:03:23.020 --> 00:03:27.810 average of like five points six hours per day, I think, in email, 55 00:03:27.930 --> 00:03:31.889 both personal and business, which is absurd when you really think about it, 56 00:03:32.169 --> 00:03:37.449 like that's more time than you spend watching TV, movies, listening to 57 00:03:37.569 --> 00:03:40.639 music, pretty much anything, except for sleeping, having depending on what your 58 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:45.479 actual sleep cycle is, but that's yeah, it's insanely I mean it's almost 59 00:03:45.560 --> 00:03:51.039 two marvel movies right there. Going back there exactly. Conversation. So Nick, 60 00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:53.360 I imagine that as you guys work with companies, whether they're trying to 61 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:59.509 build an email audience to monetize via ads, or marketers that are trying to 62 00:03:59.629 --> 00:04:04.069 use email to engage their target market effectively. I've heard you guys talk about 63 00:04:04.069 --> 00:04:08.710 this. It's really about building connection, but there are a lot of people 64 00:04:08.870 --> 00:04:13.939 that that are getting it wrong and and they're not they're not successfully building connection. 65 00:04:14.180 --> 00:04:17.500 What are some of the common mistakes that you guys see in either application 66 00:04:17.660 --> 00:04:21.139 of email that you think marketers listening to this need to be aware of. 67 00:04:21.740 --> 00:04:27.290 Well, I think so there's are two different ways that you can kind of 68 00:04:27.290 --> 00:04:30.529 look at those. There's one if you're actually using email as a marketer and 69 00:04:30.569 --> 00:04:33.490 you're sending yourself, and then there's like if you're trying to use email as 70 00:04:33.490 --> 00:04:39.399 a as an advertising channel, if you're looking to actually engage audiences across it. 71 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:43.519 And I would say like one of the key things in both cases is 72 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:46.439 I see people come on too strong. I think, particularly in the the 73 00:04:46.600 --> 00:04:50.800 BEATAB space, it's very much like, Hey, buy my thing, this 74 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:54.470 is why my thing is great. Whatever you have and your thing might be 75 00:04:54.550 --> 00:04:57.509 great. I'm not going to say it's not, but for the most part 76 00:04:57.550 --> 00:05:01.069 you really have to kind of like understand where somebody is in there buying cycle 77 00:05:01.310 --> 00:05:05.149 and and how you're engaging them in the in the tactics that you're going after 78 00:05:05.230 --> 00:05:11.339 there. So it's a sort of really mapping your content on your content strategy, 79 00:05:11.420 --> 00:05:14.220 which, if you're bb marketer, you should be thinking about that all 80 00:05:14.259 --> 00:05:16.220 the time. It's one of the top things that we think about sort of 81 00:05:16.300 --> 00:05:20.220 on my team, and my team is sort of focused on and how you 82 00:05:20.339 --> 00:05:25.370 can then leverage that through the email channel to sort of like understand where someone 83 00:05:25.449 --> 00:05:30.529 is within their buying journey and then give them what they need at that point 84 00:05:30.769 --> 00:05:33.009 so that they feel comfortable and they have what they need to sort of take 85 00:05:33.050 --> 00:05:38.480 the next steps and sort of move further down the funnel. So example of 86 00:05:38.600 --> 00:05:44.560 that might be like use our own our own company sort of as a B 87 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:47.160 is, like very early on, if you come to us and you're engaging 88 00:05:47.199 --> 00:05:50.389 with us, most of the time you don't even know that necessarily email is 89 00:05:50.470 --> 00:05:55.470 a channel where you can buy advertise, saying like, like through performance faced 90 00:05:55.589 --> 00:05:58.389 advertising, that you think about it is something that you might buy through like 91 00:05:58.430 --> 00:06:00.910 a sponsorship for otherwise. So one of the key things we have to do 92 00:06:00.029 --> 00:06:02.910 is just even sort of educate around that, so we know what is one 93 00:06:02.949 --> 00:06:05.939 of the top things that people who are looking for a new advertising channel are 94 00:06:05.980 --> 00:06:09.699 doing. They're coming from. They've usually been buying on facebook, they've been 95 00:06:09.740 --> 00:06:14.579 buying through Google search or something like that. We understand they're looking for a 96 00:06:14.740 --> 00:06:16.339 new channel in which to do the same type of buying that they can do 97 00:06:16.420 --> 00:06:18.970 with in those channels. So what do we do? We build content around 98 00:06:19.050 --> 00:06:23.089 that that we then put on our blog. We get them to subscribe to 99 00:06:23.170 --> 00:06:26.050 our content and we send them more content. That sort of feeds into that 100 00:06:26.170 --> 00:06:29.769 way and then, at a certain point of engagement, you can then understand 101 00:06:29.810 --> 00:06:31.529 like, all right now, let me give them a white paper that dives 102 00:06:31.569 --> 00:06:35.680 in a little bit deeper that talks about like how you can build audiences or 103 00:06:35.800 --> 00:06:39.480 something along that line when they're in more of a consideration face and you can 104 00:06:39.519 --> 00:06:42.759 take those signals and sort of build on it. Yeah, I love that 105 00:06:42.879 --> 00:06:45.639 night. I love kind of getting a peek behind the curtain and how you 106 00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:48.350 guys are running it, because you work with direct to consumer brands. You 107 00:06:48.430 --> 00:06:53.430 also work with BB brands, but you guys yourself at live intent are a 108 00:06:53.629 --> 00:06:58.550 BB brand and looking at your as email experts, how you guys are executing 109 00:06:58.629 --> 00:07:00.579 on email, you mentioned. I mean, I love what you said. 110 00:07:00.579 --> 00:07:04.220 They're about just, I think so many people they try to go top of 111 00:07:04.300 --> 00:07:06.740 funnel but they treat it like it's bottom of the funnel. You know, 112 00:07:06.740 --> 00:07:10.620 I've been talking to a lot of marketing teams that hey, you should put 113 00:07:10.620 --> 00:07:15.089 paid ads behind your podcast and that just seems like spending money above the funnel 114 00:07:15.129 --> 00:07:18.050 and they're just like wait, wait, what is that? What? How 115 00:07:18.089 --> 00:07:20.930 am I going to attribute leads to that. You know, it's to your 116 00:07:21.089 --> 00:07:27.009 point that if you have top of funnel content that's meant to drive awareness and 117 00:07:27.089 --> 00:07:29.930 get them further, you've got to get that in front of the right people. 118 00:07:30.439 --> 00:07:32.399 And it feels more like a give, like hey, I'm not at 119 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:34.720 I'm putting in the AD in front of you, but I'm not asking you 120 00:07:34.839 --> 00:07:39.279 to do anything other than subscribe to the show, which you're probably going to 121 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:42.600 get value from, and it's not a sales called. And so in my 122 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:46.870 own recommendations to marketers I'm talking to, it lines up with what you're saying 123 00:07:46.910 --> 00:07:49.269 there. You were talking a little bit about looking at those signals as you 124 00:07:49.430 --> 00:07:56.069 build out your different campaigns and your your different funnels, to determine when did 125 00:07:56.110 --> 00:08:00.939 they move to that next stage, when did they start getting consideration or buying 126 00:08:00.980 --> 00:08:03.980 stage content? What are some of the ways that you guys do that in 127 00:08:05.139 --> 00:08:09.899 engaging your potential buyers via email, in nurturing those leads from an inbound perspective? 128 00:08:09.939 --> 00:08:15.610 Nick, so from an inbound perspective, I mean the key thing, 129 00:08:16.129 --> 00:08:18.769 I think right there is like just understand what your what is your what is 130 00:08:18.810 --> 00:08:22.730 Your capture strategy? Right, like how are you actually capturing data and where 131 00:08:22.730 --> 00:08:26.360 you putting those forms, because that's going to be the key thing. Like 132 00:08:26.480 --> 00:08:30.360 when I talk about like signals that we're getting, I'm talking about where they 133 00:08:30.439 --> 00:08:33.759 going, where they self identifying, where they giving the information, because that's 134 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:35.960 going to be a key to where they sort of are in the funnel. 135 00:08:37.399 --> 00:08:41.399 Like if a person is only sort of like in a research stage and they're 136 00:08:41.590 --> 00:08:45.269 just trying to figure out, do I even need something along these lines or 137 00:08:45.350 --> 00:08:48.669 does this fit what I'm doing? That person is not ready to buy right. 138 00:08:50.110 --> 00:08:52.710 They're not ready to you don't want to send them to a page where 139 00:08:52.710 --> 00:08:54.629 it's like Hey, talk to a salesperson. It's like they're not ready to 140 00:08:54.710 --> 00:08:58.139 do that yet. But they might be interested in more content that sort of 141 00:08:58.179 --> 00:09:03.460 educates them around. You know why this might be a good channel for them, 142 00:09:03.259 --> 00:09:07.340 how it might actually meet the needs of what they're doing. So just 143 00:09:07.539 --> 00:09:09.850 ask for an email address, maybe a first name, last name, maybe 144 00:09:09.929 --> 00:09:15.409 company. Make it very, very, very low friction in order to like 145 00:09:15.529 --> 00:09:16.850 actually get that by, because you got to think about like sort of like 146 00:09:16.970 --> 00:09:22.210 where are they at? What is the value that I'm providing in exchange for 147 00:09:22.289 --> 00:09:24.440 the information that I'm asking them to provide to me because they know that that 148 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:28.639 information has a value. Look any buy or out there that is like, 149 00:09:28.840 --> 00:09:31.720 especially in the B of the space. These are often very large us, 150 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:35.799 they are a lot of money and they're going to do a lot of research 151 00:09:35.879 --> 00:09:37.039 on the front and to make sure that their money is being spent well, 152 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:41.149 and they understand that if they're giving over information, that's super valuable to you. 153 00:09:43.269 --> 00:09:46.350 So you need to be providing them with something that is actually going to 154 00:09:46.389 --> 00:09:48.789 be worthy of that value. Right. So, if, if, then 155 00:09:48.909 --> 00:09:50.990 we can sort of see that, like, all right, now they're on 156 00:09:52.509 --> 00:09:56.539 particular page on my website, they're doing a little bit of research. I 157 00:09:56.659 --> 00:10:01.500 can now give them a I can give them a white paper that like maybe 158 00:10:01.580 --> 00:10:03.379 just something that just sort of POPs up and says, Hey, here are 159 00:10:03.379 --> 00:10:07.769 all the different ways that you can segment and use your first party data within 160 00:10:07.889 --> 00:10:11.409 the email channel to effectively run a campaign, so that you can have some 161 00:10:11.450 --> 00:10:15.090 ideas of how you could actually run a campaign with us. And then they're 162 00:10:15.090 --> 00:10:16.850 like, okay, now I get this a little bit further. They do 163 00:10:18.090 --> 00:10:20.090 don't know that I can now ask them for things like what is your company 164 00:10:20.210 --> 00:10:24.519 size like? What is your average sort of like? Budget when you're spending 165 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:26.639 on these types of things. I can go a little bit deeper and get 166 00:10:26.679 --> 00:10:30.799 more of a signal from them because if they're willing to fill that out now, 167 00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:33.799 I know that they've got a larger commitment, they're actually interested in what 168 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:35.470 we're going to do. Plus, I can further qualify them on the back 169 00:10:35.509 --> 00:10:39.590 end and know what those signals are that I can then sort of tie to 170 00:10:39.669 --> 00:10:43.669 that and then I can send them more information that maybe then like at that 171 00:10:43.789 --> 00:10:46.029 point you may even start pushing them over to if you have a sales development 172 00:10:46.070 --> 00:10:50.019 team or other things like that, and just say like Hey, follow up 173 00:10:50.100 --> 00:10:52.340 with this person. Be An email that says, Hey, I saw you 174 00:10:52.419 --> 00:10:56.379 downloaded this would love to answer any questions if you have it. I'm here. 175 00:10:56.539 --> 00:10:58.419 Not a hard push, nothing. That's your sort of sits around that. 176 00:10:58.500 --> 00:11:01.100 But now you can put a human being behind sort of where they're at, 177 00:11:01.220 --> 00:11:05.850 so you can gage where they're going from and that works like a surprising 178 00:11:05.889 --> 00:11:09.529 amount of time, because it's all about reaching the audience that's most interested. 179 00:11:09.570 --> 00:11:13.970 Right. That's the same idea as like basically retargeting. If you're on like 180 00:11:13.090 --> 00:11:16.730 a particular website, right, you want to why is retargeting work really well 181 00:11:16.889 --> 00:11:22.600 because they're people who are actively shopping on your website versus somebody who you have 182 00:11:22.720 --> 00:11:26.039 no idea thorough market for what girls you're selling regardless. Yeah, absolutely. 183 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:31.159 I mean it reminds me of going to a marketing conference about two years ago 184 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:33.870 and and went to a booth. I actually thought I was I was meeting 185 00:11:35.070 --> 00:11:37.870 someone there to have a sales conversation because they were interested in our service. 186 00:11:39.230 --> 00:11:41.309 So that was that was problem number one with this scenario. And as a 187 00:11:41.309 --> 00:11:46.179 data provider that will remain unnamed because I'll I'll leave that out, but that 188 00:11:46.340 --> 00:11:50.259 was the scenario. So already, like uh in, the interaction at the 189 00:11:50.340 --> 00:11:56.460 booth did not feel that great. And then got multiple calls from an SDR 190 00:11:56.700 --> 00:12:01.259 after that conference that was pushing very hard for a demo and all I did 191 00:12:01.379 --> 00:12:03.090 was show up to their booth. And also I showed up to the booth 192 00:12:03.129 --> 00:12:07.649 under maybe it was a misunderstanding, but I felt like it was false pretense. 193 00:12:07.889 --> 00:12:11.690 So like that's two big strikes. And even if, like that first 194 00:12:11.690 --> 00:12:16.600 one isn't there, like showing up at a booth does not indicate that I'm 195 00:12:16.759 --> 00:12:20.120 in market for what you're doing at all. Right, and so that that's 196 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:22.600 a good example, I think, of misapplying the follow up or the next 197 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:28.000 step strategy or the next tactic in line when you're not at the right stage 198 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:33.149 in the buying process. You have any other scenarios like that where you guys 199 00:12:33.190 --> 00:12:37.070 have had tweet two process or you've seen kind of a bad miss stuff like 200 00:12:37.149 --> 00:12:39.309 that? Next I can tell you one of like you just hit on something 201 00:12:39.389 --> 00:12:43.990 that's like actually, one of the things that I preach to both my team 202 00:12:43.070 --> 00:12:46.460 as well a sort of our sales development team is the idea of like setting 203 00:12:46.539 --> 00:12:52.820 and meeting expectations and being clear, not like being clear over being clever. 204 00:12:52.419 --> 00:12:56.740 I think everybody likes to be clever and I think one of the biggest traps 205 00:12:56.779 --> 00:13:01.129 I see falling into, particularly in that space, ofally go I just need 206 00:13:01.210 --> 00:13:03.250 to get that high open rate. So what is the subject line that I'm 207 00:13:03.289 --> 00:13:05.929 going to put in there that's going to get I'm going to put something selacious 208 00:13:05.970 --> 00:13:09.330 or sort of weird that sits in there and I'm going to get that that 209 00:13:09.450 --> 00:13:13.240 high open rates. Like if you trick somebody, if you get them to 210 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:20.240 open under false pretenses, you're hurting yourself more than you're actually you know, 211 00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:24.200 helping yourself because, yeah, sure, they might open that one email and 212 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:26.149 you might get a ton of opens on that one subject line, but how 213 00:13:26.190 --> 00:13:30.509 many of those people are actually responding? How many people are clicking through the 214 00:13:30.710 --> 00:13:35.309 content that you're providing? It's like the you need those deeper level metrics that 215 00:13:35.429 --> 00:13:37.110 are sort of sitting on that way. I mean that was something that like 216 00:13:37.309 --> 00:13:41.070 early on I learned where it was just like, it's not just about click 217 00:13:41.149 --> 00:13:43.820 rates, it's not just about open rates. I love to look at a 218 00:13:43.899 --> 00:13:46.259 sort of click to open rate, like what is that actual ratio of WHO's 219 00:13:46.340 --> 00:13:52.419 opening and then actually engaging with what the content that I'm putting in that channel, 220 00:13:52.460 --> 00:13:56.049 and like looking at it from a full funnel perspective, because it is 221 00:13:56.129 --> 00:14:01.649 not always going to be like I turn up the opens, I'm automatically going 222 00:14:01.649 --> 00:14:05.049 to get more clicks. You have to find that right balance of relevance because, 223 00:14:05.049 --> 00:14:09.529 honestly, if you're got people opening that aren't interested but are tricked into 224 00:14:09.570 --> 00:14:11.600 opening one, you're going to turn them off that they were ever going to 225 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:15.000 be a buyer and the and later on, as as you had with that 226 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:20.200 experience, and then too, if they're not a qualified byer. What's the 227 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:24.909 point today? You gotta Know Your Marketing Kpis to say are driving up open 228 00:14:24.990 --> 00:14:28.350 rates. Right, exactly. It's just like these inflation numbers that just don't 229 00:14:28.389 --> 00:14:33.110 make any sense. Right, like what you need to you need to look 230 00:14:33.110 --> 00:14:37.429 at is the is balancing volume and value like. That's that's the real thing. 231 00:14:37.509 --> 00:14:39.620 That's sort of like sits there, because if you got one without the 232 00:14:39.740 --> 00:14:43.580 other, than you know, you're just you're just skin and of stock. 233 00:14:43.139 --> 00:14:46.620 Yeah, I love that. So looking at not just open rate, not 234 00:14:46.820 --> 00:14:52.139 just click through rate based on the whole volume of emails, but of those 235 00:14:52.259 --> 00:14:56.210 that open, how many click through, and looking at that percentage and possibly 236 00:14:56.250 --> 00:15:01.009 seeing like, okay, as we drive the open rate up, where's that 237 00:15:01.169 --> 00:15:05.850 fall off point where we're getting more opens but the click rate as a percentage 238 00:15:05.889 --> 00:15:07.960 of opens is actually going down? Is that kind of the tipping point that 239 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:11.159 you're looking for as you look at your email data? Neck, absolutely, 240 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:16.559 absolutely. I think those are those spot on as it's it's making sure that 241 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:20.629 you're pulling all the lovers at the same time. You're not just like tweaking 242 00:15:20.669 --> 00:15:24.110 one and sacrifice of the other. Right. Yeah, the other piece, 243 00:15:24.190 --> 00:15:28.070 I would say, there is and this is. This sort of fits into 244 00:15:28.110 --> 00:15:31.629 this is as well as just like keeping and and this is something I see 245 00:15:31.669 --> 00:15:33.830 from like a lot of folks that just don't think about this, is make 246 00:15:33.870 --> 00:15:37.860 sure you're make sure your email list is clean as you're thinking about this. 247 00:15:37.980 --> 00:15:41.419 So Collecting First Party data is incredibly important. You want to be collecting those 248 00:15:41.419 --> 00:15:45.299 email addresses, you want to be building up that file, but you also 249 00:15:45.299 --> 00:15:48.259 want to keep it clean. Like you don't want to be sending to a 250 00:15:48.299 --> 00:15:50.289 whole bunch of emails that have been defunct for like three or four years. 251 00:15:50.289 --> 00:15:52.330 I mean, you look, think about the people in these businesses, like 252 00:15:52.450 --> 00:15:56.009 what is it? Two to three years is the average time that it won't 253 00:15:56.049 --> 00:15:58.610 be any business. That's how long the lifespan of that email addresses as well, 254 00:16:00.049 --> 00:16:02.970 right. So you want to be making sure that you're filtering those out 255 00:16:03.129 --> 00:16:06.919 that you have. There's a company, I mean I don't want to give 256 00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:08.759 them a commercial, I think, but like stiff rock is a company that's 257 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:11.960 that's out there that does some pretty, pretty great stuff. Along this is 258 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:18.480 very simple software that just basically will auto filter those like out of office replies 259 00:16:18.830 --> 00:16:22.269 or I no longer work here replies that you're getting and then automatically filter out 260 00:16:22.309 --> 00:16:26.190 and clean your database for you. And then, even if they have like 261 00:16:26.309 --> 00:16:29.470 one of those email addresses in there that's like now talk to this person, 262 00:16:29.750 --> 00:16:32.590 it will actually add that into your database and sort of scrub it out of 263 00:16:32.629 --> 00:16:36.179 the email as well, which is a very cool tool. Yeah, absolutely, 264 00:16:36.379 --> 00:16:40.379 as long as it's not just a paid promo. I'm all about sharing 265 00:16:40.419 --> 00:16:42.820 a marketing tool that you find valuable and that that you recommend to friends. 266 00:16:42.860 --> 00:16:47.769 Here next, so it's sift rock, I think, where they acquired by 267 00:16:47.809 --> 00:16:49.889 drift. I feel like I heard they were. They were actually them on 268 00:16:49.889 --> 00:16:53.529 another podcast a while back, maybe like a year or so ago, and 269 00:16:53.610 --> 00:16:56.250 I remember think a man, that's a cool tool site. I appreciate you 270 00:16:56.409 --> 00:17:00.889 bringing that up. I'm super interested about, you know, capturing that that 271 00:17:00.330 --> 00:17:04.920 first party data and then leveraging that to build an audience selfishly. Here at 272 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:10.079 Sweet Fish, you know, we are have historically been a podcast agency. 273 00:17:10.519 --> 00:17:15.589 We are making this shift into becoming a media company where we not only produced 274 00:17:15.630 --> 00:17:19.029 podcast for our clients, but we're trying to grow audiences for shows that we 275 00:17:19.230 --> 00:17:22.349 own, and what we found is that over the last year or so, 276 00:17:22.750 --> 00:17:27.670 man, we really need to focus on email, because that makes not only 277 00:17:27.710 --> 00:17:30.339 can we say hey, this show has this many downloads, but we have 278 00:17:30.500 --> 00:17:34.099 this many email addresses. We're getting this sort of engagement. So for someone 279 00:17:34.259 --> 00:17:38.980 like us who is looking to and I think there are other bb brands that 280 00:17:40.220 --> 00:17:42.099 have kind of followed this playbook. You look at sales haacker. You know 281 00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:45.529 they were eventually acquired by outwrestot. I. Oh, they were strictly a 282 00:17:45.769 --> 00:17:51.210 b Tob Media Company and I know some marketing teams are trying to take Gary 283 00:17:51.210 --> 00:17:55.170 v's advice and you know, you should be a media company. And then 284 00:17:55.170 --> 00:17:57.720 there is the thing that you do. So if they're sitting in our seats 285 00:17:57.759 --> 00:18:03.599 or anyone who is trying to take this approach of building an audience in Leveraging 286 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:07.039 First Party data, do you have any specific advice for for either us or 287 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:10.359 or others out there that are taking a similar approach? Nick, as we 288 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:14.150 round out the conversation today, yeah, I mean some key things that I 289 00:18:14.190 --> 00:18:18.430 would always say. There's one as you're looking at like look at your top 290 00:18:18.589 --> 00:18:23.390 traffic pieces of content that you have initially, like where people organically coming to 291 00:18:23.549 --> 00:18:29.259 and discovering what it is that you have to offer. I think that's the 292 00:18:29.339 --> 00:18:32.099 first place that you have to look like where your highest hit pages? What 293 00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:34.740 are the key words that are driving the most growth, and those are the 294 00:18:34.779 --> 00:18:38.700 pages where you want to put an email capture. That start there. That 295 00:18:38.900 --> 00:18:41.650 is the simplest, lowest hanging fruit as far as like what you want to 296 00:18:41.690 --> 00:18:47.769 do, because something about whatever you're doing there is attracting and driving your you've 297 00:18:47.809 --> 00:18:51.250 tapped into something and that's something that's going to inform what you're doing along those 298 00:18:51.329 --> 00:18:56.720 lots. That's that's a key piece. If you go into paid, biggest 299 00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:02.240 things, I would say, within within that area are one, understand and 300 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:07.279 and talk to the platforms that you're actually buying through and like really understand what 301 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:11.309 you can do in those areas and understand what it what is going into your 302 00:19:11.349 --> 00:19:15.150 actual goals versus your budget. So if you are depending on what you're trying 303 00:19:15.150 --> 00:19:19.150 to get somebody to do, just make sure that you have a realistic cost 304 00:19:19.230 --> 00:19:22.710 per acquisition. But you're working with that is a key thing that we've sort 305 00:19:22.750 --> 00:19:26.660 of seen where it's just like I want to drive a thousand downloads, but 306 00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:30.700 I only want to pay twenty five cents for each of them. It's like, 307 00:19:30.900 --> 00:19:33.180 okay, that's going to be pretty day for called like let maybe we 308 00:19:33.259 --> 00:19:36.980 can just do something like just get an email capture on the page, because 309 00:19:37.019 --> 00:19:37.849 that's something that you can work with. So make sure that, like, 310 00:19:37.970 --> 00:19:42.250 what you're paying for, what you're providing, is actually going to have the 311 00:19:42.289 --> 00:19:47.329 value there. Three, from a first party data perspective. I mean I 312 00:19:47.369 --> 00:19:51.089 would say if you are looking to go into paid again, this will seem 313 00:19:51.170 --> 00:19:53.119 self serving, but it's actually pretty pretty logical way you go about it. 314 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:56.359 If you're specially if you're looking to capture email addresses or you're trying to build 315 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.519 out like an email newsletter list. Email is a great place to do that 316 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:03.920 because you are reaching an audience that is a hundred percent people who have subscribed 317 00:20:03.960 --> 00:20:11.069 to and given over their email addresses to other companies in order to subscribe to 318 00:20:11.109 --> 00:20:15.829 their content, and you also know that they're actively opening and engaging with emails, 319 00:20:15.829 --> 00:20:18.950 which are the type of people that you want to be on your email 320 00:20:18.950 --> 00:20:21.859 list or people who are going to actually open your emails. If you get 321 00:20:21.859 --> 00:20:26.460 a whole bunch of emails from no name Social Media Site and they never actually 322 00:20:26.500 --> 00:20:30.859 go in and actually access their emails, ever, what good has that really 323 00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:34.930 done you? Three, I would say, leverage the email data that is 324 00:20:36.009 --> 00:20:40.170 already within your database, especially if you're running an acquisition campaign. That's a 325 00:20:40.250 --> 00:20:42.529 big one. So you have, like most platforms, now you'll be able 326 00:20:42.529 --> 00:20:45.890 to actually take the list that sort of sits within your database. There's two 327 00:20:45.890 --> 00:20:48.769 ways that you can use that. One you can build a look alike audience 328 00:20:49.119 --> 00:20:52.519 in order to find more people that look like your best customers and build a 329 00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:56.440 model off of that and then target that audience. It's a very efficient way 330 00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:57.960 to actually find new people. And then, if you want to increase that 331 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:03.279 efficiency, you can actually suppress all the people that are already sitting within your 332 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:07.549 database. Right. That's something that we see very, very common among most 333 00:21:07.549 --> 00:21:11.309 of the advertisers that we work with. Almost everyone that we work with, 334 00:21:11.390 --> 00:21:14.670 we recommend have a suppression file in there, especially if you're looking to drive 335 00:21:14.750 --> 00:21:18.549 net new email sign ups or anything like that, because why would you want 336 00:21:18.549 --> 00:21:21.900 to pay for somebody that you've already got in your young your actual database? 337 00:21:21.980 --> 00:21:23.660 Right? Yeah, yeah, don't. Don't pay for emails you already have 338 00:21:23.900 --> 00:21:27.299 and make sure that the emails that you do have are valuable, both with 339 00:21:27.500 --> 00:21:33.410 the recommendation you mentioned earlier using a tool like sift rock to continually clean that 340 00:21:33.490 --> 00:21:37.529 up, but also to target those email users that are active on email. 341 00:21:37.569 --> 00:21:41.609 Right. And you know, just like we started off the conversation, email 342 00:21:41.690 --> 00:21:45.769 is not dead. But that doesn't mean that every individual and every persona engages 343 00:21:45.849 --> 00:21:48.359 with the email the same way, right, just like I'm going to find 344 00:21:48.920 --> 00:21:52.920 different people engaging more on Linkedin than facebook depending on the persona that I'm that 345 00:21:53.000 --> 00:21:57.000 I'm going after. So some really great tips here, Nick. That's another 346 00:21:57.039 --> 00:22:00.960 key thing, I think. As well as if you understand where your audience 347 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.269 is engaging with you, you can use email as a targeting function as well, 348 00:22:03.630 --> 00:22:06.789 not just to build models, not just to suppressed, but you can 349 00:22:06.829 --> 00:22:08.950 also do I mean facebook made this most famous for sort of the custom audiences 350 00:22:08.990 --> 00:22:15.740 feature, but you can target your exact email list. So if you say 351 00:22:15.859 --> 00:22:18.660 somebody has stopped opening your emails, right, and you want to make like 352 00:22:18.779 --> 00:22:22.299 you're trying to, they have in come and they haven't listened to a podcast 353 00:22:22.420 --> 00:22:26.900 in a long time, right, how do you want to drive them back? 354 00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:30.170 They're not opening your emails, that you've kind of fallen off their radar? 355 00:22:30.930 --> 00:22:33.890 You can then go into a platform like a facebook, like a Linkedin, 356 00:22:33.930 --> 00:22:37.849 you can use your email data there to target that person with a paid 357 00:22:37.849 --> 00:22:41.849 advertisement in a very efficient way that will grab their attention where they are paying 358 00:22:41.849 --> 00:22:45.759 attention right and get them to come back. Last thing I would say, 359 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:48.599 particularly from a First Party data perspective, is levers the you the audiences that 360 00:22:48.680 --> 00:22:52.279 you have, not just as data, but also from a qualitative sense, 361 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:57.000 like send them surveys, ask them questions, understand what content that they like 362 00:22:57.359 --> 00:23:00.869 and and what content that they're driving from, because it's not just it will 363 00:23:00.950 --> 00:23:06.390 inform what you build going forward. If you're not doing that actively on a 364 00:23:06.470 --> 00:23:10.910 regular basis, like you're just missing out on like a big opportunity. First 365 00:23:10.910 --> 00:23:14.500 party data goes beyond cookies and email addresses and things like that. It's also 366 00:23:14.579 --> 00:23:17.579 the other stuff that you can collect where it's just like how often do you 367 00:23:17.700 --> 00:23:22.500 like to get emails from me, like, yeah, what kind of content 368 00:23:22.579 --> 00:23:25.940 do you like to get? Like? Those are very simple questions and most 369 00:23:25.940 --> 00:23:27.609 of the time you'll find that, like a lot of people within the same 370 00:23:27.609 --> 00:23:30.769 sort of lines of business and things like that, they all have they have 371 00:23:32.049 --> 00:23:34.730 separate preferences, but they you know, they'll you'll generally be able to find 372 00:23:34.730 --> 00:23:37.490 sort of like a meme that you can you can, yes, work with 373 00:23:37.970 --> 00:23:45.400 yeah, which gives you information for your entire email strategy and it also allows 374 00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:48.160 you to better segment. We've been talking about this with our email strategy, 375 00:23:48.319 --> 00:23:52.440 both for sweetfish and for this podcast, be to be growth and pulling our 376 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:56.869 audience and say hey, you know, here are four main areas account based 377 00:23:56.910 --> 00:24:02.470 marketing, content, demand in sales and marketing alignment. Which one is, 378 00:24:02.829 --> 00:24:04.630 is the most hot button for you right now, and then using that to 379 00:24:04.750 --> 00:24:10.339 tailor the rest of their journey so that they they may still get kind of 380 00:24:10.940 --> 00:24:15.700 something based on their persona or something going on that we think would be valuable 381 00:24:15.779 --> 00:24:18.940 to our entire audience, but the rest of their journey is going to be 382 00:24:18.059 --> 00:24:22.980 more customized because they've said, hey, I want everything you've got on account 383 00:24:22.980 --> 00:24:26.089 based marketing, like I want to go there, and that's a way to 384 00:24:26.210 --> 00:24:30.930 keep people engaged and see value, because it's always the case it comes in 385 00:24:32.289 --> 00:24:34.930 naming your podcast and doing your content on Linkedin, whatever it is. Niche 386 00:24:36.009 --> 00:24:38.279 down until it hurts and then niche down a little bit more right and so 387 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:41.960 I think you know we see this. I use a sales engagement tool called 388 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:48.119 mix Max. It has polling built in. Linkedin now release polls in just 389 00:24:48.240 --> 00:24:52.839 native status updates. Obviously, any marketing automation tool you've got the ability to 390 00:24:52.950 --> 00:24:56.069 do that with forms and other things. But I think we kind of skip 391 00:24:56.109 --> 00:25:00.670 over that when we show people the value of them giving more information. That 392 00:25:00.789 --> 00:25:03.190 is it just their email. Back to a point you made way earlier in 393 00:25:03.230 --> 00:25:07.019 the conversation, but there's actually value for them like hey, if I select 394 00:25:07.019 --> 00:25:10.380 this, I'm going to get more of this type of content and not the 395 00:25:10.420 --> 00:25:12.579 stuff that I don't care about. Then they're going to be willing to provide 396 00:25:12.579 --> 00:25:15.859 that feedback because it's going to serve them. So I love where we kind 397 00:25:15.859 --> 00:25:18.900 of rounded out the conversation today. I feel like we kind of came full 398 00:25:18.980 --> 00:25:22.210 circle. Nick. If anybody listening to this is become a fast fan of 399 00:25:22.289 --> 00:25:26.609 yours wants to stay connected, learn more about what you guys are doing at 400 00:25:26.650 --> 00:25:30.450 live intent or find some of your content where you guys are helping bebe marketers 401 00:25:30.529 --> 00:25:33.930 on the email front. What's the best way for them to do that? 402 00:25:33.410 --> 00:25:37.640 I mean, I would say best place to start is live and Tentcom. 403 00:25:37.160 --> 00:25:41.559 That's that's the best way. If they want to reach out to me directly 404 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:45.119 on twitter is great. You can just damn me, tweet at me, 405 00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:48.319 whatever you want to do. I at Nick Dudg Nick, with just an 406 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:51.470 underscore between the two. So if you know how to spell my last name, 407 00:25:51.509 --> 00:25:53.630 I will be the true test. Then you can find me on there 408 00:25:53.789 --> 00:25:57.069 and that's probably the best way. Awesome, Nick. This has been a 409 00:25:57.190 --> 00:26:00.789 great conversation. I appreciate the tools and the tactics that you share today. 410 00:26:02.069 --> 00:26:03.900 Really appreciate you being our guests. Yeah, I had a great time. 411 00:26:03.980 --> 00:26:11.059 Thank you so much for having it. Is Your buyer a BBB marketer? 412 00:26:11.500 --> 00:26:15.660 If so, you should think about sponsoring this podcast. BB growth gets downloaded 413 00:26:15.700 --> 00:26:18.849 over a hundred and thirty thousand times each month and our listeners are marketing decision 414 00:26:18.930 --> 00:26:23.009 makers. If it sounds interesting, Sin Logan and email logan at sweet fish 415 00:26:23.049 --> Mediacom