Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:09.310 Welcome back to beb grows. My name is James Carberry and I'm joined today 2 00:00:09.710 --> 00:00:14.470 by Lari Pellacanis. He's the Chief Marketing Officer at FFA, code and Lori. 3 00:00:14.669 --> 00:00:18.390 I've got a fun question for you this morning that I want to kick 4 00:00:18.429 --> 00:00:26.500 this conversation off with. What is your most hated vegetable? It's a it's 5 00:00:26.539 --> 00:00:32.939 a potato, and you don't like potatoes. It's on the contrary. I 6 00:00:33.340 --> 00:00:37.450 love potatoes, but then they sit this back backstory to this, which is 7 00:00:37.490 --> 00:00:42.530 I'm intrigued by peculiary is like running barefoot or running in minimal shoes, and 8 00:00:43.090 --> 00:00:47.770 when you get into one of these peculiarity is then the one follows another. 9 00:00:48.530 --> 00:00:54.159 And and what I have learned is is the Carnival Diet and the Pato diets 10 00:00:54.200 --> 00:00:59.359 and all that sorts, and what I learned is that while potato is a 11 00:00:59.399 --> 00:01:03.829 very good staple food, but it's also spikes. Your blood too, goes 12 00:01:03.909 --> 00:01:07.230 faster than many other things. God. It's like, yeah, I love 13 00:01:07.349 --> 00:01:12.670 it, but but I need to see say oddest. Yeah, I'm on 14 00:01:12.790 --> 00:01:15.189 to I'm on a key, I'm doing a Kido thing right now. And 15 00:01:15.310 --> 00:01:19.019 so, yeah, potatoes are like my worst enemy. Because I again same 16 00:01:19.060 --> 00:01:23.540 as you. I love them, yet for some reason it's the one thing 17 00:01:23.739 --> 00:01:29.099 that that I can't seem to eat ever on this on this stupid diet. 18 00:01:29.180 --> 00:01:33.489 That an so anyway, Lori, I digress. I want to I want 19 00:01:33.489 --> 00:01:36.609 to get focused on the conversation that we're going to have today as much as 20 00:01:36.650 --> 00:01:38.650 we could talk about potatoes for the rest of this time. You're the chief 21 00:01:38.689 --> 00:01:42.569 marketing officer FA code. We ran across each other because you had, I 22 00:01:42.609 --> 00:01:46.290 think, listen to an episode of the show you posted about on Linkedin. 23 00:01:46.370 --> 00:01:49.719 We had a really good conversation about a thought leadership and some different some different 24 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:55.760 thoughts that you've had around building thought leadership inside of your own business and and 25 00:01:57.000 --> 00:02:00.560 as we talked a few weeks ago, we laid it on what I think 26 00:02:00.640 --> 00:02:02.390 is going to make for a really incredible episode, and it has to do 27 00:02:02.549 --> 00:02:07.110 with a book called the Unicorn Code. Can you tell us a little bit 28 00:02:07.150 --> 00:02:13.550 about kind of the background of how you came across this book and and how 29 00:02:13.669 --> 00:02:19.900 it's really shaped a lot of your marketing approach with your team at Fa Code? 30 00:02:20.780 --> 00:02:24.379 Absolutely, the Unicorn project you yet. I'm sorry, yeah, no 31 00:02:24.460 --> 00:02:29.460 words. It's a book by Gen Kim and I should say it's a fable. 32 00:02:30.090 --> 00:02:34.009 It's in a similar fashion than Patrick Lencio and has written some of his 33 00:02:34.169 --> 00:02:38.969 books as fables. Gene Pan has also written two books, which is the 34 00:02:38.050 --> 00:02:44.050 Phoenix Project and then the Unicorn Project. And as I as I joined ethicode, 35 00:02:44.129 --> 00:02:49.439 I began reading the treature around the subject matter of devils son, I 36 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:53.919 stumbled up on these two books which really impressed. Make those I found a 37 00:02:54.000 --> 00:03:00.870 little of similarities between how you develop high performing Software Development Organization and then again, 38 00:03:00.990 --> 00:03:06.150 how do you develop high performing sales and marketing organizations, and it was 39 00:03:06.270 --> 00:03:13.419 surprising how universal those rules where. So in Gene Kim spoke the Phoenix project, 40 00:03:13.500 --> 00:03:17.139 he talks about the very principles of developing software organizations that thrive. And 41 00:03:17.259 --> 00:03:22.419 then in the Unicorn Project, and for me personally, it tries to answer 42 00:03:22.460 --> 00:03:27.449 the question how do you build high performing organizations in general? There are for 43 00:03:27.610 --> 00:03:32.370 me there seems to be not that much specificity when it comes to software development. 44 00:03:32.770 --> 00:03:37.689 Yeah, but of course the background comes from from that side. So 45 00:03:37.770 --> 00:03:43.719 I started thinking about that and how this what gene Kim calls the five ideals, 46 00:03:43.879 --> 00:03:49.719 how they could apply for for building sales and marketing organizations. So that's 47 00:03:49.879 --> 00:03:55.110 that's where it all started. So Gene Kim originally wrote these five ideals related 48 00:03:55.229 --> 00:04:00.349 in it. His content is mostly related to how do you apply this in 49 00:04:00.669 --> 00:04:04.550 the software development space? But you read it because your your company is in 50 00:04:04.550 --> 00:04:08.909 the devop space. You read it through the Lens of how could I actually 51 00:04:08.909 --> 00:04:14.259 apply these two sales and marketing, and my understanding that right correct. So 52 00:04:14.659 --> 00:04:19.699 we're going to focus this interview actually on what those five ideals by Gene Kim 53 00:04:20.060 --> 00:04:27.490 are. And again they came from the Unicorn Project and also his previous book, 54 00:04:27.490 --> 00:04:30.689 I think. Were they also in the Phoenix Project? I don't think. 55 00:04:31.290 --> 00:04:33.529 Well, I don't think they were, to be honest. Okay, 56 00:04:33.569 --> 00:04:39.360 they were. There was another concept called the three ways, which is how 57 00:04:39.439 --> 00:04:44.560 do you if you traditionally you have people who, let's say, develop software 58 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:49.079 and then you have people who run that software and in traditional sense they more 59 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:55.750 often than not used to be isolated Archelogo, so isolated units where sort of 60 00:04:55.949 --> 00:04:59.949 hairballs off from over the fence for the other party to figure it out for 61 00:05:00.110 --> 00:05:03.470 me. There the Phoenix project. Onto the question how do you bring those 62 00:05:03.550 --> 00:05:08.180 teams together so that they can create value together? But I don't think the 63 00:05:08.300 --> 00:05:13.500 five ideals where they're for the Phoenix border, they sort of came around at 64 00:05:13.540 --> 00:05:16.980 the later stage, like mane out with the Unicorn Project. So so let's 65 00:05:17.060 --> 00:05:19.379 dive in. For the rest of this interview. We're going to we're going 66 00:05:19.379 --> 00:05:26.050 to cover these five ideals from the Unicorn Project and and really how you have 67 00:05:26.129 --> 00:05:30.490 adapted these two marketing. So the first ideal here actually, before we dive 68 00:05:30.529 --> 00:05:33.529 into ideals, is there anything Lori at a high level, that you want 69 00:05:33.529 --> 00:05:39.879 to explain about these ideals before we dive into each of them individually? No, 70 00:05:40.240 --> 00:05:43.920 not really. I think the only thing I should say is if you 71 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:49.069 if you have, let's say, doubts over the idea whether something spoiling off 72 00:05:49.110 --> 00:05:53.110 the item the world could be up to into marketing world, because for some 73 00:05:53.389 --> 00:05:57.790 people it might sound like a departure, and what I would advise people is 74 00:05:57.870 --> 00:06:02.430 to read the the Agile C sweet article that were only very recently was published 75 00:06:02.470 --> 00:06:06.939 in how a business for you, because for me that was where things fell 76 00:06:08.019 --> 00:06:12.860 in place in that on one hand you're talking about applying a Gile in leadership 77 00:06:13.100 --> 00:06:17.769 with what they call the Chile leadership principles or something similar, but there were 78 00:06:17.889 --> 00:06:23.410 so much in common with those that I that I felt that that there's no 79 00:06:23.649 --> 00:06:27.529 reason why you wouldn't be able to apply this idea. Five ideas outside, 80 00:06:27.569 --> 00:06:30.569 I'd see as well. So rather, let's dive right into it and talk 81 00:06:30.569 --> 00:06:34.120 about them and then let let them speak for on their own behalf wonderful. 82 00:06:34.120 --> 00:06:40.560 All right. So, so this first ideal is locality in simplicity. There's 83 00:06:40.600 --> 00:06:44.519 a quote here. We need to design things so that we have locality in 84 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.990 our systems and the organizations that build them. Talk to us about this, 85 00:06:48.029 --> 00:06:54.870 this first ideal of locality and simplicity. Yeah, so throughout my career, 86 00:06:55.069 --> 00:07:00.949 what I have found a highly respected is communication, and some sometimes it feels 87 00:07:00.990 --> 00:07:05.620 that when we are good in communicating then things get sold better. But you 88 00:07:05.699 --> 00:07:12.420 could argue that being good at communication so also problem that shouldn't be there, 89 00:07:12.980 --> 00:07:17.850 that is, people have to communicate in order to get things done. And 90 00:07:18.290 --> 00:07:24.490 gene game talks about what he goes bus factor or lunch factor. Bus Factor 91 00:07:24.529 --> 00:07:27.810 meaning how many people you have to throw under the bus because before things fall 92 00:07:28.129 --> 00:07:32.160 like crying to hold or, to put it in a more mildly, a 93 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:35.000 lunch factor, how many people you have to bring to a lunch to get 94 00:07:35.120 --> 00:07:40.360 things done. And the think about what cavity and symplaicity for me is that 95 00:07:40.600 --> 00:07:45.629 people need to be able to deploy value without anyone else. So if you 96 00:07:45.709 --> 00:07:49.029 I product market here and you find it glitch in a copy, why wouldn't 97 00:07:49.029 --> 00:07:53.230 you be able to go and fix it yourself? Because there's no better person 98 00:07:53.310 --> 00:07:58.579 in your organization to know the book positioning or proposition. So why, why 99 00:07:58.740 --> 00:08:03.899 should the distance between the knowledge of a product market here and the way how 100 00:08:03.980 --> 00:08:07.459 it is represented to the prospect why is the distance and why shouldn't it be 101 00:08:07.579 --> 00:08:13.050 possible for themselves? So that's that's the one aspect of locality and symplathity. 102 00:08:13.129 --> 00:08:16.730 The other aspect is, then, if you are in sales development, break 103 00:08:16.769 --> 00:08:24.490 or s Dr and you have discovered very, very lucrative lead and you want 104 00:08:24.490 --> 00:08:28.839 to get in touch with with that lead, in some organizations sales to a 105 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:35.679 certain degree wants to make sure that you don't communicate with leads from certain organization 106 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:41.590 or if there's something, something time critical going on in that organization and then 107 00:08:41.590 --> 00:08:43.629 you they would have to go and talk to the sales person. But then 108 00:08:43.669 --> 00:08:48.190 you could turn it around and as why is that informational in Crm, because 109 00:08:48.309 --> 00:08:52.710 if the if we want to make str successful, then they should be able 110 00:08:52.830 --> 00:08:58.059 to make independent decisions and they need to have the information at there for usual 111 00:08:58.539 --> 00:09:03.820 so that they don't require permission to do something. They can figure it out 112 00:09:03.860 --> 00:09:07.620 themselves, go forward with it and then the rest of the organization can give 113 00:09:07.659 --> 00:09:15.090 them a sensation of accomplishment that they actually got that prospect sort of nurture to 114 00:09:15.169 --> 00:09:18.529 got it into the pipeline and maybe they even introduced a new decision maker in 115 00:09:18.570 --> 00:09:22.649 an existing organization. That would be an absolute movest for our sales person. 116 00:09:22.929 --> 00:09:28.840 So that that's, if you put it short, how do we verify that 117 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:33.159 the teams can develop, test and deploy value without anyone else so get things 118 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:39.470 done independently? Gotta that. You've got a note here in the in the 119 00:09:39.590 --> 00:09:41.470 document that you sent over prior to this interview, that I think that I 120 00:09:41.549 --> 00:09:45.549 thought was really helpful and I think will help drive this point of locality and 121 00:09:45.590 --> 00:09:48.950 simplicity home. It says in the same way that the software developers need to 122 00:09:50.070 --> 00:09:54.659 know some basics of almost everything. Marketers need to know the basics of almost 123 00:09:54.700 --> 00:09:58.700 everything as well, positioning, copywriting, core web vitals, Seo Forms and 124 00:09:58.860 --> 00:10:03.500 workflows, and I think that that's such an important point to make, that 125 00:10:05.299 --> 00:10:09.889 you know this idea of avoiding escalations and in making sure that you, as 126 00:10:09.970 --> 00:10:15.809 the leader of the Marketing Organization, you've already given permission to everyone to be 127 00:10:15.850 --> 00:10:18.250 able to do these things that you're saying, because it just runs like it 128 00:10:18.490 --> 00:10:24.039 just makes everything smoother when you don't have to worry about people wondering if they 129 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.320 have the authority to make a make a certain change or make a certain decision. 130 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:31.480 Is that the essence of really what we're talking about here with locality and 131 00:10:31.559 --> 00:10:35.509 simplicity? That can be one way to look at it. And and as 132 00:10:35.590 --> 00:10:41.029 a matter of fact, not too long after I started in this job, 133 00:10:41.110 --> 00:10:43.830 I wanted to set some, let's say, grown rules for everybody so that 134 00:10:43.950 --> 00:10:50.820 they feel empowered, and one thing I stated to the team is, if 135 00:10:50.899 --> 00:10:54.779 you want a decision, make a decision. And then, to me, 136 00:10:54.940 --> 00:11:00.779 they are essentially two circumstances where making decision for somebody is not possible. Is 137 00:11:00.860 --> 00:11:03.490 One, they don't understand why, and the second one is they know they 138 00:11:03.529 --> 00:11:07.889 don't have an authority, but if they know the why and if they know 139 00:11:09.090 --> 00:11:13.330 that they are able to do that answer, then who else besides themselves are 140 00:11:13.490 --> 00:11:16.210 are better to do that decision? But I think this, this this sort 141 00:11:16.250 --> 00:11:24.519 of skill set is also crucial and I've I've found it true myself for myself, 142 00:11:24.759 --> 00:11:30.519 which is that once you take a dive at the deep end of hopspot 143 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:35.590 forms or progressive profiling or anything else for that matter, it's not so hard 144 00:11:35.629 --> 00:11:41.389 to get fundamentals in place for almost everything. Of course, it's a massive 145 00:11:41.429 --> 00:11:46.190 difference when you are a deep subject matter expert on search engine optimization and so 146 00:11:46.350 --> 00:11:50.259 and so forth, but the fact that you can master a certain degree of 147 00:11:50.419 --> 00:11:54.379 everything shouldn't be that hard. And do you think, glory, that that's 148 00:11:54.460 --> 00:12:00.059 on the onus of the organization to do that training, or is it more 149 00:12:00.299 --> 00:12:05.690 on the individual to go out and seek that level of skill development themselves? 150 00:12:07.450 --> 00:12:13.490 It falls to both sides, okay, and and it's something that I remember 151 00:12:13.649 --> 00:12:16.559 in the in the previous places where I have been there, we had this 152 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:24.279 fun blown conversation regarding sales enablement versus marketing enablement. So where sales enablement depending 153 00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:28.360 on the definition, but some definition says you need to make sure that the 154 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:33.309 sales people have the right selling skills and the right solutioning skills and solution skill 155 00:12:33.389 --> 00:12:35.870 so that they know your proposition, but they also know how to facilitate fruitful 156 00:12:35.950 --> 00:12:41.590 sales conversations with your prospects. But then the question follows who takes care of 157 00:12:41.750 --> 00:12:46.460 market hers? And in the same sense that there is a sales enablement, 158 00:12:46.500 --> 00:12:50.460 there should also be marketing element that says, I we are here to make 159 00:12:50.539 --> 00:12:54.779 sure that you have the right solution skills as far as you're like the company's 160 00:12:54.779 --> 00:12:58.330 own such a matter. Experts is concern or industry domain is concern, but 161 00:12:58.450 --> 00:13:05.409 the other part is is also that here are some of the marketing enablement trainings 162 00:13:05.570 --> 00:13:09.970 or books or whatever that is. But there's there's only so much you can 163 00:13:09.009 --> 00:13:15.720 do by making stuff available for people, and then then everybody needs to take 164 00:13:16.440 --> 00:13:20.759 accounter states for themselves. Owner to yeah, yeah, one of our our 165 00:13:20.840 --> 00:13:22.480 second core value, as we fish, is never stopped learning, and so 166 00:13:24.159 --> 00:13:26.919 it's a big part of how we hire people. Do We hire people that 167 00:13:26.960 --> 00:13:30.950 are hungry for learning and growth? Because if you don't have that type of 168 00:13:31.029 --> 00:13:33.590 personality? To your point, you can make all the content in the world 169 00:13:33.629 --> 00:13:39.590 available to them, are they actually going to want to receive it? Because 170 00:13:39.990 --> 00:13:43.259 do they have a posture of growth and wanting to continually learn and develop skills. 171 00:13:43.299 --> 00:13:46.059 And if they don't, they might just not be a fit for your 172 00:13:46.059 --> 00:13:52.340 organization if you're taking on this approach, which I think it's the better approach 173 00:13:52.419 --> 00:13:54.929 to take. The second ideal that we're going to talk about Lori is focus, 174 00:13:56.250 --> 00:14:00.889 flow and joy. There's a quote in here that says do we blindly 175 00:14:00.929 --> 00:14:05.289 work on small pieces of the whole, only seeing the outcomes of our work 176 00:14:05.370 --> 00:14:09.730 during deployment, or do we work in small batches, ideally single piece flow, 177 00:14:09.970 --> 00:14:13.720 getting fast and continual feedback on our work? Talk to us about this 178 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:18.320 idea of focus, flow and joy and how it relates to marketers. Yeah, 179 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:22.200 this one is not so easy because it is one definition, but it 180 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:28.750 has three aspects to that. But let's start with with a joy, because 181 00:14:28.750 --> 00:14:31.830 I fundamentally believe that people are at the best when they are allowed to do 182 00:14:31.950 --> 00:14:37.389 what they love. So when we when we let the to do what they 183 00:14:39.100 --> 00:14:43.620 what they want to do for the hearts content, then we maximize the likeness 184 00:14:43.700 --> 00:14:46.019 that they will also be successful in that. I mean, think it yourself. 185 00:14:46.059 --> 00:14:50.299 If you if you didn't love about doing podcast, how would would you 186 00:14:50.580 --> 00:14:54.690 come to a certain degree, yes, but but then when you have the 187 00:14:54.769 --> 00:14:58.529 passion for that, that's when you excel. And and something that that I 188 00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:03.250 have tried to think in the in the current set up where we are, 189 00:15:03.370 --> 00:15:07.600 is that there are three corners to bringing joy and bring focus. One is 190 00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:13.759 to take take into account what business needs, so it's one corner of that, 191 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:18.240 and then one corner is to match that with what people love to do. 192 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:22.149 And then there's a third corner that sort of goes back to what we 193 00:15:22.230 --> 00:15:24.909 discuss, is what you are good at, and I've used this expect example 194 00:15:24.950 --> 00:15:28.549 for myself that I would be in some alternative universe. I would probably love 195 00:15:28.629 --> 00:15:35.149 to do software for for self starting cars. So there's a definitely a business 196 00:15:35.269 --> 00:15:37.539 need and I would probably love to do it as well, but I'm not 197 00:15:37.659 --> 00:15:41.740 good at it, so there's no way they would let me do that. 198 00:15:41.980 --> 00:15:46.139 So you need all those three corners. But when you when you find those 199 00:15:46.179 --> 00:15:50.210 three corners in one place, when you when people are found the place where 200 00:15:50.210 --> 00:15:52.809 they love to do that stuff and there's a business need for it, they 201 00:15:54.169 --> 00:15:58.169 almost automatically figure out the third one day they will learn themselves what they need 202 00:15:58.250 --> 00:16:03.370 to do. But the the success and a daily life and and and a 203 00:16:03.529 --> 00:16:07.559 success in sort of daily accomplishment is that the work needs to be put in 204 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:12.879 small enough chunks so so you can see the progress. And here the example 205 00:16:12.919 --> 00:16:18.200 about account based marketing and so fascinating because account bass marketing is coming up and 206 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:22.190 everyone is doing that. And then it's so easy to put in a ticket 207 00:16:22.309 --> 00:16:26.789 in your command board and say let's do accompass marketing, and then you work 208 00:16:26.909 --> 00:16:30.350 for it for three, four weeks and you don't see any progress because it's 209 00:16:30.429 --> 00:16:34.620 not so easy to just pull it off. Yeah, so instead, how 210 00:16:34.659 --> 00:16:40.179 about you split that bar get into a into a meaningful size of chunks, 211 00:16:40.220 --> 00:16:44.340 which is okay, let's define the ideal customer profile, it's identify the accounts, 212 00:16:44.500 --> 00:16:48.250 that's identify the account influence map and so and so forth. Then suddenly 213 00:16:48.490 --> 00:16:53.330 those individual pieces have become small enough so that you can start working on them 214 00:16:53.850 --> 00:16:59.570 independently. You can see the progress and then you get this sensation, this 215 00:16:59.769 --> 00:17:04.079 joy, that I'm actually getting something done when it's small enough and I can 216 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:07.880 see the results of my work. Yes, and the last part the focus 217 00:17:08.079 --> 00:17:14.240 is is when they're when they are sufficiently few items on the table at each 218 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:18.910 time, then you can focus on the work and then the interruptions. When 219 00:17:18.990 --> 00:17:22.029 you minimize the number of them, then you get so much more done at 220 00:17:22.029 --> 00:17:26.630 the same time. I have my personal personal example from when I was doing 221 00:17:26.670 --> 00:17:30.140 NBA, as I was working at the same time, and I remember one 222 00:17:30.220 --> 00:17:36.059 working day when I was experimenting promote Homodore or technique, and the pometer or 223 00:17:36.140 --> 00:17:38.940 technique is for those who haven't stumbled up on that before, it's basically you 224 00:17:40.339 --> 00:17:44.930 have a sort of a what is it go like an egg watch that you 225 00:17:45.009 --> 00:17:48.769 have? You have for twenty minutes you work and for five minutes you have 226 00:17:48.809 --> 00:17:52.490 a break and then you work another twenty minutes and then again you have a 227 00:17:52.529 --> 00:17:56.369 finalute break and then, after four cycles you have a long break. So 228 00:17:56.529 --> 00:18:00.160 what I did I didn't have a break every twenty minutes. I actually moved 229 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:06.559 from work on text to studying context and then I studied for five minutes and 230 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:08.559 then I worked for twenty minutes and then I studied for five minutes and I 231 00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:14.390 worked for twenty minutes throughout the day and it was so I still remember as 232 00:18:14.470 --> 00:18:18.109 I was work doing twenty minutes of intensitive work, I put all my phones 233 00:18:18.109 --> 00:18:22.990 away and everything and I just tried to get as much done as I possibly 234 00:18:22.029 --> 00:18:26.779 could in that twenty minutes so that I can have five minutes of break. 235 00:18:27.299 --> 00:18:32.660 But I spent that on my studying and I remember that during that one day 236 00:18:32.700 --> 00:18:37.380 I got more done in those five minute chunks that I typically got done in 237 00:18:37.420 --> 00:18:41.140 a full day. Wow. So, so that was that was really an 238 00:18:41.220 --> 00:18:45.369 example of focus. Yeah, why? You dedicate yourself to the task and 239 00:18:45.410 --> 00:18:51.490 you get stuff done when it's split enough, spit down to small enough chunks. 240 00:18:51.730 --> 00:18:53.650 Yeah, it's just a matter of having the discipline to actually stick to 241 00:18:53.849 --> 00:18:57.480 that. Is that? Is that a practice that you still use today? 242 00:18:57.880 --> 00:19:03.480 The pomdore our technique unfortunately not does. So that's those are one of the 243 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:07.920 things that all of us know that are good for us, but we sort 244 00:19:07.960 --> 00:19:11.430 of we can bring ourselves to to doing that. So so yeah, yeah, 245 00:19:11.430 --> 00:19:14.910 I know that. Anytime I needed I would be able to go back 246 00:19:14.990 --> 00:19:19.869 and there. Another thing will mentioned Lori was it was around prioritizing pure reviews. 247 00:19:19.910 --> 00:19:25.339 Can you talk about that? Yes, that's a that's an important one, 248 00:19:25.420 --> 00:19:30.859 because we discussed before about the fact that you don't need permission. But 249 00:19:30.940 --> 00:19:36.980 if you don't need permission, you still want to have another pair of eyes 250 00:19:37.140 --> 00:19:41.049 for many things. The game back even yeah, and even though each one 251 00:19:41.130 --> 00:19:45.849 of us have our bona fight intentions to do the right thing, sometimes, 252 00:19:47.609 --> 00:19:51.970 you know, all the loooking, some some details can take the better of 253 00:19:52.089 --> 00:19:55.279 us. So so if somebody comes to me and says, Hey, could 254 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:57.920 you look this for me, then what it effectively means is that they have 255 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:03.359 come to the end of their cycle and now they are waiting for me. 256 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:10.509 And so it is important that we create this feedback loop, that people get 257 00:20:11.109 --> 00:20:15.869 fast feedback and for any end, we prioritize that feedback because the moment that 258 00:20:15.069 --> 00:20:18.869 they are waiting for my feedback, they don't they cannot progress with that and 259 00:20:18.990 --> 00:20:23.220 then they that there's a fine line between how do you want to interrupt your 260 00:20:23.299 --> 00:20:26.859 work to provide a peer feedback to your colleague? But letting me give an 261 00:20:26.859 --> 00:20:30.779 example here from marketing. So a product market, you're building a proposition, 262 00:20:30.940 --> 00:20:36.410 building a campaign and then sort of about to roll it out with the help 263 00:20:36.450 --> 00:20:40.849 of field marketing. They might want to reach out for the individual field market 264 00:20:40.890 --> 00:20:45.049 there's for the feedback and pertaining to the positioning, and while they are waiting 265 00:20:45.130 --> 00:20:49.519 for the answer from the field marketing, they can't continue creating materials, for 266 00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:53.079 instance, the assets. Yeah, and in the same way, when, 267 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:57.480 when those campaigns are in progress, then the further out you of from the 268 00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:03.079 field, that sometimes it gets harder to know what's happening out there. So 269 00:21:03.640 --> 00:21:07.869 when, when, quote unquote, global teams are exposed to the local metrics, 270 00:21:08.190 --> 00:21:14.950 then that also accelerates the feedback back to the definitely don't want to call 271 00:21:14.990 --> 00:21:18.109 them and back of his teams from almost like a create team and a deploy 272 00:21:18.190 --> 00:21:21.740 team, if that's the way how to say it. But but it is 273 00:21:21.819 --> 00:21:26.420 important that if some but if we say you don't need permission, people still 274 00:21:26.420 --> 00:21:32.259 want to maintain high standards. So how to do that is a peer review. 275 00:21:32.339 --> 00:21:34.009 And if that's the case, then make sure you get the peer reviews 276 00:21:34.130 --> 00:21:38.089 back quickly enough. Got Up. I love it. This third piece of 277 00:21:38.329 --> 00:21:44.170 the five ideals is the improvement of daily work. Talk to us about this 278 00:21:44.210 --> 00:21:48.359 one. Yeah, there's a there's a wonderful definition of of technical debt, 279 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:52.640 which is technical. That is what you feel the next time you want to 280 00:21:52.720 --> 00:22:00.880 make a change and and we just had an example today with with our website, 281 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:04.869 with our team who's doing the website sort of refresh of the website and 282 00:22:06.750 --> 00:22:11.789 and my colleagues sent me a document say could you read through this copy before 283 00:22:11.789 --> 00:22:17.779 we turn it into a new page and can you can you put service design 284 00:22:17.980 --> 00:22:22.980 term into it? And I was reading that copy and thinking what in order 285 00:22:22.099 --> 00:22:29.900 for me to properly put a service design word or phrase into it, I 286 00:22:29.980 --> 00:22:32.930 would have to know where to put it, I would have to know the 287 00:22:32.970 --> 00:22:37.089 subject matter. And so I don't want to do it badly, but I 288 00:22:37.210 --> 00:22:41.690 don't want to hold the back on the on the page either. So the 289 00:22:41.769 --> 00:22:48.119 conclusion is the page is good enough, we go lie with it and we 290 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:52.440 put it into a technical debt, which is it's waiting for us next time. 291 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:56.119 We're coming back and we know that it doesn't say service design, it 292 00:22:56.240 --> 00:23:02.309 doesn't do the best job there is, but we know what it is missing. 293 00:23:03.910 --> 00:23:07.269 And and something that Gen Kim talks and, by the way, a 294 00:23:07.390 --> 00:23:11.630 lot of the develops community talks, is about sort of the balance between building 295 00:23:11.710 --> 00:23:17.059 new features and then paying down the complexity debt or the technical debt, because 296 00:23:17.339 --> 00:23:22.779 if you if all you do is create new features, then there's never time 297 00:23:22.339 --> 00:23:29.490 to make things better. And and the question for market theres is and what 298 00:23:29.730 --> 00:23:33.369 are those things like? What are what is the technical debt for marketing. 299 00:23:33.529 --> 00:23:37.049 So that would be a LoC post without a proper CTA, or that would 300 00:23:37.049 --> 00:23:41.049 be a social media posting without a bread crumbson place. Bringing you to the 301 00:23:41.130 --> 00:23:45.319 next step or form, and that doesn't ask a qualifying question or are there 302 00:23:45.480 --> 00:23:48.759 are so many places where you can always go back and make it better, 303 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:52.599 but if you never take the time to carve out time from your work to 304 00:23:53.079 --> 00:23:56.589 pay down debt, then all you do is it just create new stuff, 305 00:23:57.150 --> 00:24:03.589 but all that stuff is waiting to get better. Yeah, hey, everybody 306 00:24:03.789 --> 00:24:07.990 logan with sweet fish here. You probably already know that we think you should 307 00:24:07.990 --> 00:24:11.380 start a podcast if you haven't already. But what if you have and you're 308 00:24:11.380 --> 00:24:17.299 asking these kinds of questions? How much has our podcast impacted revenue this year? 309 00:24:17.779 --> 00:24:22.420 How's our sales team actually leveraging the PODCAST content? If you can't answer 310 00:24:22.500 --> 00:24:26.730 these questions, you're actually not alone. This is why I cast it created 311 00:24:26.809 --> 00:24:32.490 the very first content marketing platform made specifically for be Tobe podcasting. Now you 312 00:24:32.569 --> 00:24:37.369 can more easily search and share your audio content while getting greater visibility into the 313 00:24:37.490 --> 00:24:42.880 impact of your podcast. The marketing teams at drift terminus and here at sweet 314 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:48.240 fish have started using casted to get more value out of our podcasts, and 315 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:52.599 you probably can to. You can check out the product in action and casted 316 00:24:52.910 --> 00:25:00.789 dot US growth. That's sea St Ed dot US growth. All right, 317 00:25:00.829 --> 00:25:07.299 let's get back to the show. There's there's a marketer that I really respect 318 00:25:07.339 --> 00:25:11.500 deeply. Is Names Guy Toano Danardi, and he was the VP of marketing 319 00:25:11.539 --> 00:25:14.940 at a company called saleshacker, and it was something that I would hear him 320 00:25:14.940 --> 00:25:21.380 talk about going back to their blog content and refreshing, revisiting content that they 321 00:25:21.420 --> 00:25:25.690 had already published to make it more relevant for because, you know, a 322 00:25:25.730 --> 00:25:29.170 year had passed or however, you know however much time year, eighteen months, 323 00:25:29.210 --> 00:25:33.089 whatever. It was a regular part of his rhythm to go back and 324 00:25:33.289 --> 00:25:37.400 revisit the content that they had already put out and make it better one either. 325 00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:41.960 Hey, we see that this content's not ranking for the search term that 326 00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:45.480 we were hoping to rank four, so we need to make adjustments and iterate. 327 00:25:45.880 --> 00:25:49.000 But had they never had they waited around for it to be perfect in 328 00:25:49.029 --> 00:25:52.950 the first place, they wouldn't see the results that they see today, which 329 00:25:52.990 --> 00:25:57.630 is they've built an enormous email list, they've really become the media company that 330 00:25:57.670 --> 00:26:03.619 they wanted to be in the sales space because they had that rhythm of putting 331 00:26:03.619 --> 00:26:08.140 out content, even if it wasn't necessarily perfect, but then the regular rhythm 332 00:26:08.180 --> 00:26:14.099 of going back and optimizing and making it better over time. And I think 333 00:26:14.140 --> 00:26:17.299 I so I think that's a phenomenal point that you bring up, Loria. 334 00:26:17.460 --> 00:26:22.410 I really appreciate you pressing in there. Is there anything else around the improvement 335 00:26:22.490 --> 00:26:25.809 of daily work from these five ideals that we want to press into before we 336 00:26:25.890 --> 00:26:29.450 move into this fourth one? I would the only thing I would bring up 337 00:26:29.450 --> 00:26:34.559 this is something that the community that I am now exposed to in the develop 338 00:26:34.599 --> 00:26:40.400 space uses a firm called a blameless post mortem. Yes, we talked about 339 00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:44.480 this in our pre interview and I this is a brilliant idea. Yeah, 340 00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:51.950 and it intrigues me as well, is that that it when something unexpected or 341 00:26:52.069 --> 00:26:56.029 even unwanted happens. And this, by the way, it ties up very 342 00:26:56.069 --> 00:27:00.789 nicely into our point of next point of psychological safety. But the I think 343 00:27:00.829 --> 00:27:04.180 it's you can't actually any one of these, into some of these five particularly, 344 00:27:04.220 --> 00:27:10.859 but blameless post quantum is is when people work together to understand how things 345 00:27:10.900 --> 00:27:15.289 have come to how they are, then it creates bitter understanding for improvements. 346 00:27:15.970 --> 00:27:21.529 So so the improvement of daily work you want to do, you want to 347 00:27:21.609 --> 00:27:26.210 pay down the thing, technical debt. But but the only way to pay 348 00:27:26.289 --> 00:27:30.799 down the technical debt is to know it is there. So if you always 349 00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.079 say this is great, we never heard to touch it, then there's no 350 00:27:33.200 --> 00:27:37.279 technical that. But we know that's not true. And if people shy away 351 00:27:37.480 --> 00:27:41.079 from speaking up and say actually, this is this, this is not good 352 00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:45.829 enough, like we have to be it needs to be better. The first 353 00:27:45.869 --> 00:27:52.910 question should be that what happened, instead of who caused the problem or who 354 00:27:52.150 --> 00:27:57.660 was it? So so long as you avoid a question who and and you 355 00:27:57.779 --> 00:28:03.900 avoid speculating about the the the alternatives that could have happened, then you're focusing 356 00:28:03.940 --> 00:28:08.619 on like what were the caught reasons that led up to this situation, and 357 00:28:08.740 --> 00:28:14.210 we focus on on this blameless post. More than that, you're never supposed 358 00:28:14.250 --> 00:28:18.049 to point a finger at anyone. You're never supposed to say it's that person 359 00:28:18.130 --> 00:28:22.970 problem, but it's this happened and as it as a consequence this, this 360 00:28:23.529 --> 00:28:26.519 came to exist and this is the cause of the problem. And then you 361 00:28:26.640 --> 00:28:30.599 identify. All right, so we probably have to fix the outcome, but 362 00:28:30.720 --> 00:28:36.160 we maybe also have to fix the process. Yes, Gene King and and 363 00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:41.869 the folks sort of influencers in that area, they talk about this this human 364 00:28:41.950 --> 00:28:47.029 everything and it's so easy to say it was a human error. But I 365 00:28:47.190 --> 00:28:51.269 remember many, many books in this in this sort of literature space, saying 366 00:28:51.309 --> 00:28:56.299 that they is you cannot attribute like human error cannot be a rude cause. 367 00:28:56.619 --> 00:29:00.660 A human error is caused by something else and if it's a human error, 368 00:29:00.700 --> 00:29:06.660 then we have to go that dig deeper and find what led that human error 369 00:29:06.700 --> 00:29:10.569 to happen and we go fix that so that the humans will not have to 370 00:29:10.609 --> 00:29:12.970 do those errors. Yes, in the future. So play it blameless, 371 00:29:14.009 --> 00:29:15.490 post mortem mess, part of the implement of faded work. I think it's 372 00:29:15.529 --> 00:29:22.529 a is a very healthy source of those ideas what to go and and do 373 00:29:22.769 --> 00:29:26.640 more. And then the final thing is the technical death. You have to 374 00:29:26.799 --> 00:29:30.799 you have to advocate time for that. Yeah, I literally made a note 375 00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:36.079 that we need to go back and start reviewing content that we've posted and figuring 376 00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.630 out whether it's ranking for the keywords that we're trying to rink for, if 377 00:29:38.710 --> 00:29:42.029 it's not, what do we need to tweak and and it falls right in 378 00:29:42.150 --> 00:29:45.990 line with that blameless post mortem like. But if you don't schedule time for 379 00:29:47.230 --> 00:29:52.150 those blameless post mortems, it's somebody's fault that we necessarily didn't rank for the 380 00:29:52.190 --> 00:29:56.579 keyword or it doesn't doesn't really matter to assign blame. It's we want to 381 00:29:56.619 --> 00:29:59.980 get to the result and so if we schedule time for that, if we 382 00:30:00.059 --> 00:30:04.779 do an objective assessment on what worked what didn't work, then we'll actually drive 383 00:30:04.859 --> 00:30:07.890 toward the result that we're trying to get to. So I've made a note. 384 00:30:07.930 --> 00:30:10.930 I'm going to I'm going to time block it as soon as this call 385 00:30:11.049 --> 00:30:15.849 in. So this this has been incredible. The fourth ideal here is psychological 386 00:30:15.930 --> 00:30:18.769 safety. This is something I've talked about with our team a few different times 387 00:30:18.849 --> 00:30:23.680 in the last couple weeks. Talk to us about psychological safety and it's importance 388 00:30:25.079 --> 00:30:29.160 and how you've tied this from the one of the five ideals into your marketing 389 00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:34.750 team. Yes, the definition or are is almost a quote coming from Gen 390 00:30:34.750 --> 00:30:38.589 Kings folks. This is we make it safe to talk about problems because sold 391 00:30:38.630 --> 00:30:44.069 in problems requires, on a request, prevention, which requires honestly and honestly 392 00:30:44.190 --> 00:30:47.869 regard, requires the absence of fear so there's a sort of a chain of 393 00:30:48.109 --> 00:30:51.220 logic there. And if you go to marketing, there there are some of 394 00:30:51.299 --> 00:30:56.980 these topics that invariably come up, which is that we are not unique enough, 395 00:30:56.980 --> 00:31:00.859 I. We don't have these unique what is our unique value proposition? 396 00:31:00.900 --> 00:31:03.970 At the whole Ger fuffle around the uniqueness, our positioning is wrong, or 397 00:31:04.049 --> 00:31:08.730 we don't have enough leads or the qualified leaves aren't warm enough. And and 398 00:31:10.769 --> 00:31:14.410 if you don't feel safe talking about these problems, why would you ever want 399 00:31:14.450 --> 00:31:17.849 to want to bring them up, because you only know that you're going to 400 00:31:17.890 --> 00:31:23.319 be pushed back. So so the psychological safety and that I am I still 401 00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:27.519 feel like I need to humble myself every single day to learn more about this 402 00:31:27.559 --> 00:31:32.519 this concept. But the the idea is that we need to create an environment 403 00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:37.990 where people are thanked for bringing up problems, like thank you for bringing up 404 00:31:37.029 --> 00:31:40.670 that problem, because if you didn't say that, we would have known that 405 00:31:41.829 --> 00:31:45.190 this is an I read it first time from a book by Ma the Olla 406 00:31:45.269 --> 00:31:49.099 Hofta, who is a board member of ADB, former CEO of connect and 407 00:31:49.140 --> 00:31:52.940 the former STP of knockie. The book, I believe, is only in 408 00:31:53.099 --> 00:31:56.940 Finnish, but what he would he said was that the executive people need to 409 00:31:57.019 --> 00:32:00.849 be the first people here the problem, not the last people to hear the 410 00:32:00.930 --> 00:32:05.369 problem. And then the bigger the organization, the more likely it is that 411 00:32:05.650 --> 00:32:09.009 you shy away from the problems. They you sort of pain them and beautify 412 00:32:09.130 --> 00:32:13.130 them and then, only then, and then you thought they're the other book 413 00:32:13.250 --> 00:32:16.920 that I haven't ready myself, but I have got an exposed to sufficient amount 414 00:32:16.920 --> 00:32:22.400 of quotes. It is a raised to see us must book about his experiences 415 00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:27.519 with Nokia, which is another allegedly great business book. I have no no 416 00:32:27.720 --> 00:32:30.670 doubt for that to be anything else. But there was another, similar way 417 00:32:30.710 --> 00:32:37.430 of saying it, that there's no reason to beautify or cover up problems. 418 00:32:37.509 --> 00:32:42.029 You need to create an environment where people want to be safe talking about them. 419 00:32:42.910 --> 00:32:47.059 So that's probably the hardest one to do. But well, because we 420 00:32:47.140 --> 00:32:51.420 do identify the grasp as well. Yeah, when you have a culture of 421 00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:54.900 identifying problems, it almost feel, I mean, and we see this in 422 00:32:54.980 --> 00:32:59.690 our own organization, it can feel like all you do as a leadership team 423 00:33:00.170 --> 00:33:02.609 is your you're fighting fires all day. You're you're a fire, a fight. 424 00:33:02.769 --> 00:33:07.849 Your role is the chief firefighter, because if you've created a culture where 425 00:33:07.890 --> 00:33:10.849 people feel safe to say hey, we haven't we have an issue here, 426 00:33:10.890 --> 00:33:15.519 we have an ugly baby, so to speak, and you want them doing 427 00:33:15.599 --> 00:33:19.279 that because obviously you don't. You don't just want to mask something that is 428 00:33:19.480 --> 00:33:22.960 really a problem and is not producing a good experience for your customer, it's 429 00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:27.589 not driving results for your team. If you don't know that it's an issue, 430 00:33:27.630 --> 00:33:30.509 you can't fix it. But when you create that culture, you have 431 00:33:30.670 --> 00:33:35.710 to be ready and willing to actually take the action that it takes to make 432 00:33:35.829 --> 00:33:40.660 those improvements. And if you don't have a culture amongst your leadership team where 433 00:33:42.099 --> 00:33:46.819 you're constantly taking action towards making things better than that it's going to be really 434 00:33:46.900 --> 00:33:51.779 tough it. So it makes sense to me why a lot of leadership teams 435 00:33:51.859 --> 00:33:55.210 just want to kind of mask and beautify their issues, because it's easier that 436 00:33:55.329 --> 00:34:00.769 way. You don't have to have the work of actually fixing hard problems whenever 437 00:34:00.769 --> 00:34:04.690 you trick yourself into thinking that there are no problems. Yeah, and and 438 00:34:04.849 --> 00:34:09.800 if we then look at the marketing context, something that marketers have but not 439 00:34:10.039 --> 00:34:16.119 that many others to is a be testing and and if you think about the 440 00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:21.599 psychological safety, if you think about that. The circumstances when that it's important, 441 00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:23.869 is you have to make a choice, you have to bring up a 442 00:34:23.949 --> 00:34:29.230 problem and then, as a result of that, you're going to change that. 443 00:34:29.670 --> 00:34:32.269 You're going to change something. So you're going to let go off the 444 00:34:32.309 --> 00:34:37.550 old one. I'm bringing the new one. But but if you think through 445 00:34:37.670 --> 00:34:42.260 marketing, there are not that many places in marketing anymore where you wouldn't be 446 00:34:42.539 --> 00:34:45.579 able to do both. You would be able to do a be testing instead 447 00:34:45.579 --> 00:34:52.300 of saying I'm not willing to bring this topic up because people are actively defending 448 00:34:52.739 --> 00:34:55.610 the other idea, and then I would have to I would have to represent 449 00:34:55.690 --> 00:35:00.170 the opposite idea and then they then there's a fight and then somebody needs to 450 00:35:00.210 --> 00:35:05.570 lose. But how about if market you say hey, if there is something 451 00:35:05.690 --> 00:35:08.320 that can be improved, again the continuous improvement, which was the third one. 452 00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:12.599 How about we don't even try to make a choice, we do an 453 00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:17.920 a be testing and let the APE testing prove us. And we we had 454 00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:24.909 a very recent example about this where we hypothesize that as part of the pandemic 455 00:35:25.150 --> 00:35:30.789 situation where we are, organizations are going to shift their focus on cost savings 456 00:35:30.070 --> 00:35:35.820 instead of delivering customer value, and I think a gardeners and some others were 457 00:35:35.820 --> 00:35:39.900 also making the same, same sort of suggestions that organizations on certain industry will 458 00:35:39.900 --> 00:35:44.820 focus on cost saving instead of the every better user experience and so and so 459 00:35:44.980 --> 00:35:51.409 forth. And we build a qualifying question where we asked, what is your 460 00:35:51.449 --> 00:35:53.690 chance? A simple as that. Like. We didn't we didn't have to 461 00:35:53.849 --> 00:35:58.530 make a choice. We put a qualifying question out there, what is your 462 00:35:58.610 --> 00:36:04.010 challenge? And then we we specified the sort of wide enough range of responses 463 00:36:04.360 --> 00:36:07.039 and then in two months time you go back to a lead base and you 464 00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:14.239 look at how those answers intersect, the jug roles or what is the relative 465 00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:17.869 size of each one of the coal word or the the answer, and you'll 466 00:36:17.909 --> 00:36:22.989 soon find that you don't have to decide whether it is delivering customer value or 467 00:36:23.030 --> 00:36:29.750 whether it is saving costs. You will ask it and you feel confident about 468 00:36:29.750 --> 00:36:32.780 taking that input from the real people out there and let them guide your decision. 469 00:36:32.860 --> 00:36:36.619 May Us, I think that's so smart. Think that's so smart, 470 00:36:36.739 --> 00:36:42.780 so Lori, as we as we go into this fifth ideal, it's all 471 00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:47.250 about customer focus. There's a quote here that says we ruthlessly question whether something 472 00:36:47.289 --> 00:36:52.010 actually matters to our customers, as in, are they willing to pay us 473 00:36:52.090 --> 00:36:55.369 for it or is it only a value to our functional silo? Talk to 474 00:36:55.409 --> 00:37:00.130 us about customer focus. As we wrap up here, I stumbled up on 475 00:37:00.449 --> 00:37:06.119 hubscots research that talked about routine tasks, and this is back from two thousand 476 00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:09.320 and fifteen. It's it strikes me that there's at least I wasn't able to 477 00:37:09.360 --> 00:37:13.679 find a more recent research, but they said that an average market here spent 478 00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:17.269 sixteen hours a week in the routine tasks. Well, sixteen hours a week, 479 00:37:17.469 --> 00:37:23.750 that that is a lot. And in in gene came in the one 480 00:37:23.789 --> 00:37:25.989 of the books, I think it was him, who said in the books 481 00:37:27.030 --> 00:37:30.820 that hundred years ago there was a role called chief our officer and you needed 482 00:37:30.860 --> 00:37:37.739 a chief bout offerer to make sure that power comes through. And now I 483 00:37:37.820 --> 00:37:40.659 would be almost ready to make a claim that the digital marketing specialist is the 484 00:37:40.820 --> 00:37:45.090 new chief our officer because, kin, in order for you to be in 485 00:37:45.449 --> 00:37:52.010 the marketing space you have to have fundamentals on digital marketing. It's like close 486 00:37:52.130 --> 00:37:57.570 to impractical to try to be good at the work and not know about victual 487 00:37:57.650 --> 00:38:01.719 marketing. Yeah, so imagine that you. We go back to number one. 488 00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:07.320 Imagined that you educated yourself on the digital marketing to a certain degree and 489 00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:15.070 then you would be able to release even a small fraction of the time spent 490 00:38:15.150 --> 00:38:20.670 on routine tasks. Where would you invest that? Analyzing your pipeline, analyze 491 00:38:20.789 --> 00:38:23.909 like talking to like picking up your phone and talking to real prospect and taking 492 00:38:23.989 --> 00:38:31.300 care of technical debt and all those things that would directly add value to customer, 493 00:38:31.820 --> 00:38:37.820 instead of transposing content from one CSV or exolfile to another or any of 494 00:38:37.900 --> 00:38:42.690 the other routine task you might be imagine. Is there? That's not to 495 00:38:42.769 --> 00:38:45.929 diminish the fact that those things need to be transposed, but I think it 496 00:38:46.369 --> 00:38:51.250 you know, those routine tasks happen for a reason. I mean it's a 497 00:38:51.289 --> 00:38:54.880 lot of those things need to get done, but I think it's determining as 498 00:38:54.920 --> 00:39:00.760 an organization who within the organization can do this, because we don't necessarily need 499 00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:06.760 are people that are experts in digital marketing focused on these particular tasks. Maybe 500 00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:09.949 it can be taken on by somebody in operations or you know, somebody maybe 501 00:39:10.070 --> 00:39:15.869 like a virtual assistant type of role or something where you can kind of outsource 502 00:39:16.190 --> 00:39:22.190 that. That daytoday, routine stuff that doesn't necessarily require any skill and free 503 00:39:22.550 --> 00:39:28.780 your people that do have that skill to actually operate in it much more frequently, 504 00:39:29.300 --> 00:39:32.940 which is going to ultimately allow them to focus on delivering a better result 505 00:39:34.019 --> 00:39:37.179 for the customer at the end of the day. Yeah, we can all 506 00:39:37.219 --> 00:39:38.929 do the we can allder do the test that we say. You know, 507 00:39:39.010 --> 00:39:44.050 when you go to Brazilian Barbecue, they give you this a wooden stop but 508 00:39:44.090 --> 00:39:45.690 which is painted right on the other side and green on the other side. 509 00:39:45.929 --> 00:39:49.889 Yep, and if you place it on the table, then they will bring 510 00:39:49.929 --> 00:39:52.760 you more food or the just keep your table. Imagine that you had that 511 00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:57.960 stub on your table, on at your desk and every like once in a 512 00:39:58.000 --> 00:40:00.679 while, you reflect what you are doing and you put it read up, 513 00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:04.320 if it's internal routines, and if it's green up, then you actually adding 514 00:40:04.400 --> 00:40:07.789 customer work and just watch what happens. And my my argument is that, 515 00:40:08.429 --> 00:40:13.469 or Hubspot argument is that the sixteen hours a week on a routine task, 516 00:40:13.869 --> 00:40:16.750 even though you are working at marketing, it doesn't mean that you're doing customer 517 00:40:16.750 --> 00:40:23.139 focus for work and there's always room for improving automation and that automation will then 518 00:40:23.179 --> 00:40:28.099 really is time for something else, which then can be used what this says. 519 00:40:28.659 --> 00:40:32.179 It can be used for ruthlessly questioning whether the time released can be should 520 00:40:32.300 --> 00:40:36.889 be used for customer focus. A love it Lori. I want to talk. 521 00:40:37.250 --> 00:40:40.329 I want to talk about a little giveaway that that you told me about 522 00:40:40.329 --> 00:40:45.409 right before we hit record here, because you guys are giving away some books. 523 00:40:45.809 --> 00:40:50.159 You're giving way three books of the year, the Unicorn Project, which 524 00:40:50.159 --> 00:40:52.480 is what we've been built. You know what we've done this entire episode on 525 00:40:52.559 --> 00:40:55.400 the five ideals from the Unicorn Project. Can you do you want to tell 526 00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:58.960 us a little bit more about what you guys are doing? Yes, so, 527 00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:05.230 so, so we secured three hard copies of the Unicorn Project for some 528 00:41:05.429 --> 00:41:09.190 fewel listeners. And and they argument here is some some people are going to 529 00:41:09.909 --> 00:41:15.750 take our conversation for face, face value. Yep, and some people are 530 00:41:15.789 --> 00:41:19.019 going to be, rightly so, little more stubborn in in buying into this 531 00:41:19.219 --> 00:41:22.500 idea. And I wanted to help those individuals that say, okay, it's 532 00:41:22.539 --> 00:41:28.099 a Nice Chit Chat, but I'm not really into it yet. So the 533 00:41:28.340 --> 00:41:35.010 three people who are the stubbornness in adopting it practices from it space into marketing 534 00:41:35.050 --> 00:41:38.170 space and get to get to read it themselves, and I don't know what's 535 00:41:38.210 --> 00:41:43.650 the best way to to sort of select those. What the winners? I 536 00:41:43.889 --> 00:41:46.159 have the books with the team and the team said they they will be happy 537 00:41:46.159 --> 00:41:51.199 to ship them to where ever in the world those listeners are. Just need 538 00:41:51.239 --> 00:41:53.280 to find out what's the yeah, if you're listening to this and you want 539 00:41:53.360 --> 00:41:57.559 one of those three copies that Lori and his team are giving away, just 540 00:41:57.639 --> 00:42:01.630 shoot me an email, James at sweetfish mediacom and shot mean emails in me 541 00:42:01.829 --> 00:42:05.869 or I'll let you know if you're one of the three that we picked and 542 00:42:05.949 --> 00:42:07.710 then I can get your address and pass it over to Laurie's teams. Is 543 00:42:07.750 --> 00:42:10.630 that sound like it works to you? LURY? Absolutely and I. and 544 00:42:10.829 --> 00:42:15.539 those those people who are not that I'm quick in sending emails, I want 545 00:42:15.579 --> 00:42:21.539 to remind that they can get free excerpts of the book in the IT Revolution 546 00:42:22.139 --> 00:42:27.059 Website, which is a publisher the or the company of the author. So 547 00:42:27.139 --> 00:42:30.409 you can always go get a little sample, yeah, for yourself, so 548 00:42:30.530 --> 00:42:34.130 you can get it yourself, where you can email me and and will possibly 549 00:42:34.210 --> 00:42:37.369 send you, or Lori's team will send you a copy of the book for 550 00:42:37.530 --> 00:42:40.250 free. So, James At sweetfish Mediacom, shoot me an email, let 551 00:42:40.289 --> 00:42:44.519 me know you want the book and I will make sure that it gets in 552 00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:49.719 your way. Lori's there anything in closing that you want to add around these 553 00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:53.159 five ideals before we close it out today? The only last topic, again 554 00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:59.030 I think I mentioned that in the beginning, is the agile leadership teams manifesto 555 00:42:59.150 --> 00:43:01.829 which was published in the hole of Business Review May June two twenty twenty. 556 00:43:01.949 --> 00:43:07.429 So for myself it really fell in place when I read the book regurt you 557 00:43:07.429 --> 00:43:10.829 dated on these five ideals and then I read this a Gile leadership team manifesto 558 00:43:10.909 --> 00:43:16.260 later and they were so much similarities there that it was almost a confirmation for 559 00:43:16.340 --> 00:43:20.340 me that it's another way of saying the same thing. So if you are 560 00:43:20.380 --> 00:43:23.940 in reading on HD are, go dig up at that article. It's from 561 00:43:24.179 --> 00:43:29.170 from May June two thousand and twenty by a three people from from ban and 562 00:43:29.210 --> 00:43:34.369 company and they that they focus more on the executive team rather than marketing and 563 00:43:34.449 --> 00:43:37.769 sales team, but all the same it's almost a it's also very, very 564 00:43:37.769 --> 00:43:43.360 enlightening toal markets and salespeople. Thanks for sharing that, lorry. This this 565 00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:45.320 has been incredible. If there's somebody listening to this they want to stay connected 566 00:43:45.320 --> 00:43:47.239 with you, what's the best way for them to go about doing that? 567 00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:53.639 Twitter, Linkedin instagram. Those are the ones that facebook I booked for the 568 00:43:54.280 --> 00:43:58.949 post people to my whole bus and my family, but you can, you're 569 00:43:58.989 --> 00:44:00.309 going to move me out on any one of the three. Awesome. So 570 00:44:00.750 --> 00:44:05.869 you'll be able to obviously see Lori's name in the the spelling of his name 571 00:44:05.989 --> 00:44:10.619 in the headline of this episode and then any links related to this content you 572 00:44:10.860 --> 00:44:15.500 will see in the show notes here. So thank you so much for listening. 573 00:44:15.619 --> 00:44:17.860 Lori. Thank you so much for your time and for sharing this insight 574 00:44:19.059 --> 00:44:22.900 and and the incredible insight that you were able to pull from the Unicorn project 575 00:44:22.219 --> 00:44:25.809 in these five ideals and how you're relating them to marketers. I think this 576 00:44:25.929 --> 00:44:29.489 is going to help a whole lot of people. So I really appreciate your 577 00:44:29.570 --> 00:44:32.050 time and to the listener, thank you so much for listening. We love 578 00:44:32.130 --> 00:44:38.880 you town. Thank you. Gary v says it all the time and we 579 00:44:39.000 --> 00:44:45.760 agree. Every company should think of themselves as a media company first, then 580 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:49.360 whatever it is they actually do. If you know this is true, but 581 00:44:49.480 --> 00:44:52.469 your team is already maxed out and you can't produce any more content in house. 582 00:44:52.789 --> 00:44:57.469 We can help. We produce podcasts for some of the most innovative bb 583 00:44:57.590 --> 00:45:00.789 brands in the world, and we also help them turn the content from the 584 00:45:00.869 --> 00:45:05.670 podcast into blog posts, micro videos and slide decks that work really well on 585 00:45:05.789 --> 00:45:09.460 Linkedin. If you want to learn more, go to sweetphish Mediacom launch or 586 00:45:09.659 --> 00:45:12.940 email logan at sweetish Mediacom.
