Transcript
WEBVTT
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Welcome back to beb growth. I'm
Logan Lyles with sweetfish media. I'm joined
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today by Eric Kastelnik. He's the
founder and CEO over at postal. Eric,
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how's it going today and, more
importantly, what wallpaper is currently on
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your cell phone? Listeners want to
know, man, what wall favors of
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myself on? It will first off, its gone great. Thank you,
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logo, for having me on my
on my cell phone, I have I
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have picture of my twins, so
Oh, non and family photo my little
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guys. Yeah, Oh, and
well and very well dressed at man.
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How do you? How do you
actually get those? That's not often,
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by the way. That's that.
That is like a one time every you
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know whatever, two years, we
can get them dressed up like that.
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So yeah, I totally hear,
man. I love open it up with
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just a fun question to get to
know our guests a little bit more here
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lately. Today we're going to be
talking about how do effectively use direct mail
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and gifts, both in the sales
and the marketing side. To give listeners
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a little bit of context, Eric, why is this something that you and
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your team over at post or so
passionate about right now? Yeah, I
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mean, I think that the world
of sales and marketing has been so focused
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on the digital aspects of marketing and
sales automation over the last fifteen, twenty
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years with, you know, the
advent of Aliqua and Marquetto and then hub
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spot and then getting through to get
your sales automation platforms like Sales Loft and
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outreach and people on an AI and
inside sales and all these other companies that
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are trying to solve for the str
opportunity there that the the amount of like
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information being set and processed on the
digital set of things is rich, critical
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mass, and so a lot of
what we're focused on is doing all the
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things that marketing automation and sales automation
has done well for the digital, for
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the offline, and really what postal
is is the sales and marketing engagement platform
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that generates leads and increase sales and
improves customer attention. But optimizing those offline
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interactions, which we think is even
more important today. Yeah, absolutely,
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especially when we don't have that human
to human interaction totally. How can we
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get something that is that is tactle, that is real and is not not
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just pixels? So I think we're
going to. We're going to dive in
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a bit into the how to use
both on the marketing and the sales side.
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We tend to touch on both sides
of the fence, if you will,
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on this show. I'd like to
touch on marketing first. Where do
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you see some of the primary applications
for direct mail? We've had some other
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conversations with folks, especially in an
ABM play. Is that where you're seeing
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marketing teams really get the most out
of direct mail, or is that only
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one piece of it? Yes,
I think you have to look at the
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the average sales price, so the
SP of what our businesses is pushing product,
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and I think it really it sets
the the strategy based on what those
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what that average shales price is.
So for those companies that are essentially under
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like a five thousand dollars average sales
price and that's more of like an e
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commerce product or more smb, you
find that they leverage more actual direct mail
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pieces, so it's not that expensive
to send a postcard or send a note
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or send a brochure about Your Business. When you see the sales prices go
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up to, you know, over
fifteen or up to fifteen up to twenty
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five. You generally see some gifting
involved within that as well, so sending
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some personalized swag or sending some some
wine. And then when you get to
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the enterprise level conversations, it's generally
pretty curated items that that companies are sending
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and having through their workflows and generally
like offline as a major strategy for them
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because of the fact that it's such
an important sale. It's it's such a
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HIGHSP generally. You know, you
don't you don't find, you know that
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they're closing a lot of those deals
and so the the lead generation of those
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opportunities, the cost per leads are
tend to be much higher and so really
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you look at those average shales prices
and the amount of cost it's associated to
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generate a leader, generate an opportunity, and you can understand the strategy.
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But all in all we see very
similar strategy of leveraging offline. Those that
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have done it, and everybody started
with handwritten notes. I mean you sold,
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I've sold. Those companies that have
been able to integrate handwritten notes into
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a process very early on tend to
have a higher conversion rate. What postals
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really doing is thing. Hey,
let's take all that, all of the
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communication and engagement that you're having through
handwritten notes or gifting or donations, and
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make sure that it's now in side
of your your process, that you have
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inside of your workflows on the marketing
and sales side of things. Marketing specifically
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tends to do your like they tend
to own like an ABM strategy. So
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they'll have their strategic accounts where you're
saying, okay, I've got these hundred
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accounts that I've identified, this is
what air cover I'm going to give my
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sales team, and that air cover
generally comes in the form of advertising cookies,
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understanding how people are behaving online,
sending engagement emails and that it's also
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taking like the the items that they're
sending from a corporate brand perspective. When
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it goes over to the sales side
of things, it has everything to do
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with personalization and ensuring that that message
that they're delivering to that individuals coming from
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the Rep with a message with an
impact that actually will help them get into
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that sales funnel, which would be, you know, a qualification call or
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a demo request. Yeah, absolutely. As I'm starting to think about specific
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plays that you can run as you
incorporate direct mail, gifting and personalized gifts
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into both your sales and marketing function. I don't know if it's just my
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journalism background, I'm thinking about the
common questions, the the what, the
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win and the how. I would
love to touch on a little bit of
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of the what. What? What
things do you see that specifically are performing
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well? It seems like you know, with email templates, with marketing campaigns,
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with gifts, you know, there's
this cycle. Right, something's new,
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then everybody does it right. Like
how many times have we seen the
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hub spot email that says, you
know option A, B or C,
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you're not consisted, now's a bad
time or you're stuck under a filing cabinet?
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Right. So what's new in the
what of sending? And I have
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some follow up questions there, but
I just curious to hear what's kind of
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new where you seeing some customers innovate
in what they're sending. And then I
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want to ask some questions about the
when and the how, where you see
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some nuances or you guys have some
data to show you know what's working,
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when and how. Yeah, that's
a great question. So we have to
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remember that, like, although we
were starting to see the same emails pop
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up and we're starting to see the
same engagement, taken about fifteen years from
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marketing automation to get to this point
in time. I so talk get taken
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a long time. Not only has
it taken fifteen years of technic, technical
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development, but it's also taken fifteen
years for adoption of these customers to adopt
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these new philosophies of how do you
engage with people through this digital channel.
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So I would have to say that
like we're in like not even in the
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baseball game yet. We're still in
like batting practice. So when you think
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about how to automate the offline and
how to engage with people in a scalable
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way through offline engagement, you know, we're still seeing this as as being
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very basic and it's a crawl before
you walk thing. Right. We're not
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we're not trying to, we're not
trying to influence our customers to do anything
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that is above and beyond what they
should be doing currently, and that is
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leveraging direct mail pieces from the reps, leveraging swag through our platform, leveraging
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donations on behalf of their customers,
but using that within the actual workflow,
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within the communication. Like it's like
it's not coming out of like left field
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that they just got a bottle of
wine from a random person, right,
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that's just that like, or a
brand, right, or I got a
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t shirt or a mug or something. Right, that process of like getting
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something needs to actually mean something and
it needs to be in the actual sales
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workflow or that ABM strategy, and
there needs to be consistency across all of
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the messaging that happens on all these
platforms, from the digital side and from
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the offline side, and that's why
it's so important. When we built postal,
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was like, Hey, let's ensure
that we integrate with these systems that
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actually allows us to automate these pieces
of content offline in these workflows that are
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already established. And so that's really
that's really like what we've seen, what
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we're focused on, what we've seen
work. But those that are more advanced
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actually actually answer your question about those
that have done this more more efficiently.
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What we see is that they've actually
created so we do have playbooks actually in
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our software, which is drip drip
marking offline. So what we've seen is
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we've actually seen customers using drip marketing
tactics on the marketing side of things.
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So an example would be if you
find out one of your customers is a
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coffee lever or you want to do
some sort of branded swag campaign, what
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you're able to do is you're actually
able to set up that playbook to say
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I'm going to send this on day
one, I'm going to send this one,
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this next thing on day thirty,
this next thing on day sixty,
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and they can just set it and
forget it on in the postal world on
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the marketing side of things. And
at the same time, and we see
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like customers doing like, you know, something like sports teams, or,
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you know, they see see college, like college athletics, or or you
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see something like a coffee lover right, or electronics, like all those different
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components and the things that that you
actually can can drive like through that engagement
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on the offline. All of that
is kind of curated inside a postal and
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done. Then you have those those
customers that are saying, okay, now
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that I'm doing this on the marketing
set of things, let's go ahead and
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shift this to the efforts to our
sales team and instead of writing those handwritten
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notes, let's actually have a handwriting
and postal have it set up where it's
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like, okay, like I want
to just send out these notes that are
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sending to people automatic if we don't
have their address, maybe have to sense
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some verification across, like Hey,
where are you? Were he living?
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Now? Where you working? So
there's there's a lot important, especially right
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now more than any time before him
or right. No, totally, and
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it's like one of those things.
It's like hey, we happen to be
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launching the any pandemic. Go figure. Right. It's a challenge, but
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I think the thing that we've seen
the best that our clients are doing is
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taking what is manual like taking their
marketing closet and Brigades of the cloud,
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taking their printed vista print postcards that
they have their their reps and out and
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bring that into the cloud and have
a system that actually manages all that communication
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for them and that we've we've seen
that be like kind of the first step,
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the crawl before we started walking.
Yeah, so, speaking a little
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bit to the what my next question
is the win. You spoke about it
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a little bit there, Eric in. Okay, there's there's some marketing air
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cover. We're we're equipping sales to
to be able to send things automated.
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Again, it depends on that ASP
or that that ACV. A lot of
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our customers are, you know,
marketers at Sass, companies that sell mid
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market enterprise, a little bit larger
deal sum is not quite as transactional.
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Oftentimes in that scenario. Specifically,
Eric, when do you see the best
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time to layer in these personal pieces? Do you see a lot of your
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customers using it more to break into
new accounts or to nurture and keep engaged
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that entire buying committee through the process
of a longer sale cycle? I mean,
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really, it's you could point it
as being the same engagement that you
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heavy email. I mean, if
you're as long as you're communicating via a
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like as long as the because it's
just it's just like an engagement tactic right.
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You're you like you have a pattern
interrupt that you want to do through
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this offline channel. So what we've
seen at the top of the funnel is
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that if you have, if you
have a system in place, and this
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is generally for the larger customers,
if you have a system in an ABM
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strategy, in place that you are
actually knowing when people are coming to your
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website and you know when people are
actually like taking action, you should be
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sending them communication from the brand.
So, whether that's a swag piece or
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whether that's a note from the CEO
or something that's more generalized, we see
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that as being strong to get them
through to the top of the funnel.
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Then when you're inside of the actual
sales funnel, what we what we see
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is it's actually a little bit more
curated and it's not necessarily like you're gifting
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someone something to bribe them. It's
more of like you're gifting this thing to
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keep top of mind, right.
So it's like just I know we're going
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through this this rpe process, or
we know where that we're going through this
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process of this sales, long term
sales process. I just wanted to give
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you let you know that I'm thinking
about you. Here's a donation on your
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behalf and you know this is the
way that we operate. You know this
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is part of our brand. Another
thing would say is that if you're sending
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like a swag piece across that you
know a lot of times it's like hey,
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you know, just want to see
what size you are because I have
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this awesome thing for you and then, like next you know, you're in
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a conversation with that piece. So
you find it like that, the offline
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tacked, because do we're not doing
handshakes anymore. That's the thing. It's
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like you're not going out to clients
offices, you're and with enterprise sales,
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like I know I did it for
a very long time. I'm really good
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when I'm in front of someone and
shaking their hand, but am I is
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good on zoom? I have no
idea. Are we all going to be
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better? Probably not right and taking
people out to dinner and go into conferences
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like that's gone the time being,
hopefully not forever. So that being said,
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like you have to have some sort
of physical engagement with them, and
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that's why I just I love this
space so much where it's like pattern interrupts.
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You're getting things, you're engaging with
people at their homes. You know,
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people are excited to get packages,
they're excited to interact with the mailman
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because it's some sort of outside engagement. We see that being very helpful with
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in the middle of the funnel and
then once once customers are on I we
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do it at postal, getting a
playbook set up to where automatically triggers like
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a four step which is a quarterly
based playbook on sending them something per quarter.
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And it doesn't need to be big. It can just be like hand
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writ notes, or it can be, you know, a brochure or a
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white paper that I'm thinking about,
or a piece of swag or a gift
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basket for, you know, the
the holidays. All of those things can
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now be structured and automated in a
way that they have before. Yea and
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the House with retention. It helps
with like the mindset of like, okay,
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this company stop of mind, their
care about me, like and they're
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doing something differently than my other vendors. And that's even if they give the
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thing away and just say don't send
this to me again, they're going to
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remember it, right, they're going
to remember that piece. Yeah, absolutely,
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Eric. I want to ask a
couple of follow up questions on the
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how how you see people following up
timing? You've mentioned a couple things there.
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I want to dig in there and
just a seg but I want to
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back up and and ask you a
question that we we normally think about here
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at sweet fish are our founder and
CEO, James. He's a big fan
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of Gift Ology, the the book
from totally. It's John Rulin, right,
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Yep, yeah, and one of
the things he talks about in that
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is sending people something with their logo
on it rather than yours, because they're
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more likely, unless you have a
really good relationship. To me, I'm
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more often, if I'm reaching out
to someone who is not associated with our
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brand yet, sending them something that's
associated to something they love, which might
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be their company and their brand,
as opposed to hours. Now, for
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some of our customers who are big
advocates of ours, who would proudly,
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you know, represent something that has, you know, our show logo on
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it, growth or the the sweet
fish logo or values or something like that,
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but to me it's always been a
little bit off to where, Hey,
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I'm giving you this gift and we
don't know each other, but it's
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got my logo on it, and
it's almost feels a little bit selfish from
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the gifter because it's like, I
want you to wrap our brand and they
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don't know your brand yet. What's
your thought on your logo versus there's and
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the timing of that as I kind
of ramble on and stream of consciousness on.
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That's a very strong like observation and
I actually go with no logo.
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I believe that that logo less things
are actually more worn more and the thing
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is you remember where you got things, like you, you remember those right,
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and so I it's really interesting.
When we started this business we didn't
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have swag. So we didn't have
a swag in our actual like market place
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and and postal set up to where, you know, basically we're taking all
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of this these this market place items, all of these things that are sent
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out there in this world and the
pup, the pup is good, man,
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you're all good. So I was
gonna say my kids are going to
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be running back here. So at
some point. So all of this,
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all the stuff that's out there that
people send, we made a conscious decision
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not to actually have branded anything to
start and I said, I don't think
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it matters if you get a Jettie
Cup that has your brand or their brand.
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I just think it's if you send
this Yetie Cup, they're going to
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be more interactions with that Yetie Cup
if it has nothing on it, or
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if you send something like a college
sweatshirt or something the effect that it is
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like something that they they act,
we generally care about. All those things
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are like non branded. Now we've
had so much questions of the marketing branded
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stuff because people have lost their marketing
closets. So the marketing closets are like
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locked and you know in an office
that people are no longer in or they
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just ordered all of this stuff or
we're going to order all this stuff that
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has the brands on it. How
do you manage that? So we had
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to get into the swag space to
help really with that problem, and it's
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just about solving problems. So the
how to answer your question, it's I
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really and I love the gift Doledge
Book. We actually have a huge book
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collection inside of the marketplace, so
we send that book out to a lot
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of folks. So books in education, materials and things that actually like spur
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thought and conversation, I think are
more important than the actual value of the
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asset. I'm just not a I'm
just not a big fan of sending something
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that's super expensive. It feels a
little bit off. But if it's curated
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and it's personal and it's something that
is that's nice. It's in the workflow.
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I think the workflow piece and the
personalization of that item, meaning that,
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you know, there's actually a note
that goes back to that whole engagement
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process, that that's more effective than
anything that's branded or not branded. Yeah,
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I love what you said there are
thinking about is this going to be
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used? Is it something that is
going to remain around, even if it
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doesn't have my logo on it?
It's one of the reasons, I know
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John Rulin is books. As you
know, don't send food because then it's
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gone hat. Send it, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I
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was like, Nol kids do not
sell. We had to get cupcakes on
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the platform because we will have had
to. But right, right, yes,
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like, I love not bakery.
They like personalize the box and everything
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and they're a great partner of ours. But you know, at the end
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of the day, I I think
it's the message and I think it's,
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you know, what people will see
value of. And again, it's not
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about it's not about, you know, bribing them to do anything's about are
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they going to have something functional that
they actually point to say hey, this.
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During this process I actually really enjoyed
like communicating, engaging with this brand
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because we're all representatives of our brand, of our corporate brand. It's like
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our sales people are our marketers,
are executives, we are we are representatives,
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we are the brand and your engagements, of the things that the brand
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sends online and through email and through
phone calls and through the offline all of
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that needs to be consistent and if
one part of that brand is off or
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just like a little bit wonky and
doesn't doesn't align with the other parts of
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the brand, then you know that
it then it just doesn't work and it
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seems it just doesn't seem real.
Yeah, absolutely. It's funny that you
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mentioned norms bakery. You know,
for folks just listening, they won't they
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won't see this, but up over
my left shoulder here I've got propped up
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a cover to one of the wooden
boxes from no night shop and it has
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the BEDB growth logo on it.
So there is kind of a balance of
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all those things that we're talking about
in that example. Now, it was
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food. I really liked getting the
food in that. Yeah, because the
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cookies are freaking delicious. Check outnomins
bake shop, y'all. But you know,
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the box was personalized. It didn't
say NAM's bake shop on it,
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because what am I going to do? Like, I'm not going to hang
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on to that right. I don't
want to, you know, wrap nombs.
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I might mention them two people and
on the PODCAST, like I'm doing
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right now. But I hung on
to the to the top of that box
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because I was like hey, I
could prop that up on my bookshelf and
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it's something that has the BB growth
logo on it. And before we got
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these MIC flags for our podcast mics, I didn't have anything that really showed
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the BB growth logo very regularly.
And it's it's small, it's in my
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background on all my zoom calls,
but hey, it's something. It's there.
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Someone might say, Hey, what's
that? And so that was kind
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of that mixture, right, it
was branded for me, even though it
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was food. There was something personalized
that hung around, right. It didn't
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just have like, you know,
logo on a cupcake that got devoured and
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was gone. So so, from
a technical standpoint, let's let's dig into
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this a little bit because I want
to make sure that everybody understands like you
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can do anything right. Technology will
allow you to do anything. But the
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question is, is that how scalable
is that is that piece. So when
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I look at the technical challenge that
that faces. So yes, you could
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absolutely go through each one of your
customers and design something inside of postal that
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that that had logos on it to
send to each one of the customers,
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but the challenge lies within actually how
you scale that. And so there's this
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been I say this a lot and
probably heard another podcast. There's this.
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There's this divide between personalization and automation. Okay, so you want to have
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as much activity as you can and
you know, we think about activity generation.
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It has everything to do with automation. How do you automate things to
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happen automatically? So it just like
all of the communication happens as as it
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is, as it's you, as
you set it up, and you have
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all the mail merge functions, all
the other stuff. Then you have personalization,
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which is hyper personalization. It's understanding
that specific person, like who is
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Logan? What does he care about? Why should I be calling him?
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Why should I be sending him and
know, why should I say he said?
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And then you have personalation. And
what I'm trying to do is I'm
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trying to bring these two together and
that they're like they're like polar they're like
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the same magnet, you know,
like they're both positives going against each other.
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And yes, you can't sput everything. I see personalization at scale.
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I'm like, you can't just put
those those words together and say how go
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together? Right? Very hard.
Yeah, so, like so, and
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we know this because this is where
we live as a business. So we're
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trying to bring these things together.
And so technology is is what is the
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in the intersection of this is if
you can build technology that can actually help
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with automating or scaling personalization, then
it becomes very interesting, and so I
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encourage all of your listeners out there. Of You know the offline is very
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personalised and that's why we got into
this. We believe, Hey, there
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is a technology opportunity with this massively
disjointed offline engagement that just happens with no
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tracking and no like it, like
understanding of how much we're spending from a
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budget perspective or control of what the
messaging is. And then we have this
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understanding of automation and how technology can
influences. Let's pull this, let's pull
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this personalization over as close as we
can get to the automation piece to ensure
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that we're making this more effective.
But again, we're like in the batting
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practice right now. So how are
we able to just do the very easy
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things that people are doing manually and
actually convert them to online, trackable,
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you know, measurable, and then
bringing the automation at some point in time?
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Yeah, I mean, look,
you guys are living this day to
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day with what you're experimenting, with
what you're enabling your customers to do.
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Eric so I really appreciate that perspective
on all of this. If anybody listening
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to this is new to you or
postal, what's the best way for them
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to asking follow up questions, stay
engaged with you guys or find some resources
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you guys have to enable them in
this area of personal gifting, direct mail
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and all that sort of stuff.
Yeah, so we've got an incredible resource
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section on postal dot aoh that has
all of our e books and all of
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our all our webinars that we've done, all of our podcasts that we've done
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and some great infographics actually share what
we're seeing from our customers. So if
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you're if you're on posted io,
just take up the resource section or this
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00:24:27.130 --> 00:24:30.809
product is free to try. We're
not trying to like block anybody from trying
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00:24:30.890 --> 00:24:34.970
this out. We want you to
come into postal and understand how you can
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start scaling this. Talk to a
salesperson, have them walk you through it
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for thirty days and if you like
it, you can move forward. But
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00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:45.200
it's free to try. I love
it, Eric, thank you so much
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00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.359
for being our guests on the show
today. I really appreciate it. Thanks.
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Look at for the longest time I
was asking people to leave a review
368
00:24:53.589 --> 00:24:57.990
of BB growth in apple podcasts,
but I realize that was kind of stupid
369
00:24:57.990 --> 00:25:03.150
because leaving a review is way harder
than just leaving a simple rating. So
370
00:25:03.309 --> 00:25:07.380
I'm changing my tune a bit.
Instead of asking you to leave a review,
371
00:25:07.420 --> 00:25:10.579
I'm just going to ask you to
go to baby growth and apple podcasts,
372
00:25:10.900 --> 00:25:15.259
scroll down until you see the ratings
and reviews section and just tap the
373
00:25:15.299 --> 00:25:18.099
number of stars you want to give
us. No review necessary, super easy
374
00:25:18.380 --> 00:25:22.890
and I promise it will help us
out a ton. If you want to
375
00:25:22.970 --> 00:25:26.529
copy on my book content base networking, just shoot me a text after you
376
00:25:26.569 --> 00:25:29.890
leave the rating and I'll send one
your way. Text me at four hundred
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00:25:29.930 --> 00:25:32.970
seven four, and I know three
hundred and three two eight