1319: The 4 Critical Elements of Podcast Advertising (for Brands & Advertisers) w/ Krystina Rubino

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:08.949 Welcome back to beb growth. I'm looking lyles with sweet fish media. I'm 2 00:00:08.949 --> 00:00:13.310 joined today by Christina Rubino. She's the head of offline marketing over at right 3 00:00:13.349 --> 00:00:16.589 side up. Christina, welcome to the show. And everybody wants to know 4 00:00:16.829 --> 00:00:20.429 what is on your home screen of your phone right now. What is your 5 00:00:20.469 --> 00:00:24.859 wallpaper on your phone right now? Who? That's a good one. My 6 00:00:25.019 --> 00:00:29.059 home screen is my husband and my dog, and then it's like what? 7 00:00:29.179 --> 00:00:32.899 I have two different ones, though, because when I open it's just a 8 00:00:33.060 --> 00:00:36.210 view of Mount Tam which is like a bay area where I live. So 9 00:00:36.929 --> 00:00:40.329 just a little a little landscape view. So my icons look all lined up 10 00:00:40.409 --> 00:00:43.409 and all that good stuff. Oh, I am. I'm a stickler for 11 00:00:43.490 --> 00:00:47.649 how my home screen actually looks and and and I like that. Variety of 12 00:00:47.729 --> 00:00:51.159 lock screen versus home screens a little bit different. What kind of dog do 13 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:54.560 you have? By the way, I have a labordoodle because name is mellow. 14 00:00:54.679 --> 00:00:58.000 It's an aspirational name. Is He's not that mellow, but when he's 15 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:02.240 tired he is. I love that. I love that. So I think 16 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:04.069 we may have talked about this, but maybe not. I have a labordoodle 17 00:01:04.150 --> 00:01:08.790 as well. Starts with an M Mac. He's actually usually right here beside 18 00:01:08.829 --> 00:01:12.950 me as we're recording. He's he's usually pretty mellow, except for when there 19 00:01:12.950 --> 00:01:17.150 are roofers on top of the house next door and he's saying humans do not 20 00:01:17.670 --> 00:01:19.780 belong on top of roofs. He does. He doesn't like that. No, 21 00:01:21.140 --> 00:01:23.819 they're great guard dogs, which is not what I thought I was signing 22 00:01:23.859 --> 00:01:27.420 up for, but okay, awesome. Well, let's to jump into the 23 00:01:27.500 --> 00:01:34.010 topic today. James and myself and several other members of our team heard you 24 00:01:34.370 --> 00:01:40.049 on one of drifts podcasts talking about podcast advertising, and most people listening to 25 00:01:40.170 --> 00:01:44.730 the show know that we focus a lot on content production, content repurposing around 26 00:01:44.730 --> 00:01:49.959 podcasting. Podcast advertising is nothing that we've really focused on, so I was 27 00:01:49.079 --> 00:01:53.239 really excited to pick your brain both offline and now share some of that with 28 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:57.439 listeners. We're going to be talking about tips for both brands that have a 29 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:00.159 podcast, how to approach sponsors, how to structure those deals, how to 30 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:06.069 get the most out of monetizing your show when you do have an established show, 31 00:02:06.069 --> 00:02:07.550 or maybe even early on, and then, on the flip side, 32 00:02:07.629 --> 00:02:12.550 whether you have a podcast you don't, if you're looking to reach listeners of 33 00:02:12.710 --> 00:02:16.379 other podcast to either direct them back to create awareness for your product or service 34 00:02:16.419 --> 00:02:21.020 or for your own podcast. But before we get into all of that, 35 00:02:21.259 --> 00:02:25.379 how did you become so passionate about podcast advertising in the in the medium of 36 00:02:25.460 --> 00:02:30.490 podcasting in generals? It's a good question. So I've been in media and 37 00:02:30.610 --> 00:02:35.289 marketing for the last fifteen years and after about eleven in New York City, 38 00:02:36.009 --> 00:02:39.009 I was just really frustrated by the performance that I was seeing in digital channels 39 00:02:39.449 --> 00:02:44.479 and also, candidly, like I'm I am well trained and paid search, 40 00:02:44.759 --> 00:02:49.240 but that is a function that is being in housed by advertisers at a pretty 41 00:02:49.240 --> 00:02:53.280 high rate. So I was sitting at an agency leading a paid search department, 42 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:55.680 going I think you guys can do this and House with like a solid 43 00:02:55.719 --> 00:02:59.509 twenty four year old like you. Don't really need us, you don't need 44 00:02:59.710 --> 00:03:04.509 this. And also just display performance over the last ten years has taken a 45 00:03:04.629 --> 00:03:08.430 nose dive. So I was looking around. I've got a background that's integrated, 46 00:03:08.469 --> 00:03:10.949 so I've done a lot of offline and online marketing in my career, 47 00:03:12.509 --> 00:03:15.099 but I wound up deciding to go and move out to the bay area, 48 00:03:15.139 --> 00:03:20.180 change it up a little bit, work at an offline agency first to see, 49 00:03:20.740 --> 00:03:23.139 you know, just really what it was like to kind of switch my 50 00:03:23.219 --> 00:03:27.569 career over and I was that was where I discovered podcasting and I was just 51 00:03:27.729 --> 00:03:31.009 so blown away by the performance of the medium and the quality of the creative 52 00:03:31.129 --> 00:03:37.050 the ad reads that the first time I saw a report from podcast advertising, 53 00:03:37.090 --> 00:03:39.610 I flagged the analyst because I thought they made a mistake of conversion rate. 54 00:03:40.330 --> 00:03:45.159 It was so high from landing and I was just like this isn't possible. 55 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:47.639 It was like in the s and that's not any commerce conversion rate. So 56 00:03:47.800 --> 00:03:53.039 I was I was really incredulous and what I've seen over the last four years 57 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:59.669 it's just it's a it's a medium where it's still democratic. Add inventory is 58 00:03:59.710 --> 00:04:01.669 still finite for the most part right. So, like you think about your 59 00:04:01.750 --> 00:04:06.069 standard kind of preroll miserrole advertisements that you see, there's a finite amount of 60 00:04:06.150 --> 00:04:10.699 them. You know there's you're not going to pack your episodes full of adds. 61 00:04:10.780 --> 00:04:15.340 So when you have finite inventory and you're reaching a really engaged audience that 62 00:04:15.460 --> 00:04:18.259 the host can message to in a way that's really authentic, that they're trusted, 63 00:04:18.420 --> 00:04:21.620 you know, like Logan, people who listen to this podcast know you. 64 00:04:21.860 --> 00:04:27.610 You, you're in you're literally in their ear and telling them about a 65 00:04:27.810 --> 00:04:30.689 topic that's that they're passionately interested about. These people are going to listen to 66 00:04:30.769 --> 00:04:35.129 you if you decide to endorse a product, whether or not it's a personal 67 00:04:35.209 --> 00:04:40.560 endorsement. So it just is like one of the last mediums in which you 68 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:46.120 can really you can have performance that that far outstrips media investment if you do 69 00:04:46.279 --> 00:04:50.160 it correctly. And I love those kind of naisance emerging channels. That's where 70 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:55.389 I've spent a lot of my career. Yeah, so that that leads me 71 00:04:55.509 --> 00:04:58.709 to one of my first questions that I think will lend itself to both. 72 00:04:59.149 --> 00:05:01.189 I think is we work through will be like this is this is a tip 73 00:05:01.310 --> 00:05:06.300 for either the brand side or the advertiser side. This first question is kind 74 00:05:06.339 --> 00:05:13.779 of, I think, for both reaching be to be decision makers with podcast 75 00:05:13.819 --> 00:05:16.699 adds. What do you see that's that's working well in the in the types 76 00:05:16.779 --> 00:05:20.420 of ads, kind of the precanned ones, more authentic, just kind of 77 00:05:20.529 --> 00:05:24.850 host read in it? What are some of the things that you're seeing that 78 00:05:25.050 --> 00:05:29.370 that are performing well and some examples? Yeah, it's interesting that you say 79 00:05:29.490 --> 00:05:32.649 so. For the most part we always go with host read ads or host 80 00:05:32.730 --> 00:05:36.959 read ads, because when you have a producer do the voice saying, you 81 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:43.560 do tend to lose that host audience connection. And there are obvious exceptions so 82 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:46.319 that you know when you're doing more of a brand awareness campaign, if you 83 00:05:46.360 --> 00:05:49.350 do something like an NPR wnyc, there are reporters who aren't going to be 84 00:05:49.389 --> 00:05:54.990 able to do a personal endorsement or voiced endorsement. So there's there are exceptions. 85 00:05:55.110 --> 00:06:00.430 But if you want to grow your business using podcasts, you really do 86 00:06:00.629 --> 00:06:02.550 want to stick to some of the ads that have been most successful in the 87 00:06:02.589 --> 00:06:06.060 medium to date for growth advertisers, and that's consumer or be to be. 88 00:06:06.259 --> 00:06:10.939 That the playbook from like a how do you insert the ads and do it 89 00:06:11.139 --> 00:06:15.459 is actually fairly similar. So when you think about when you listen to podcast, 90 00:06:15.939 --> 00:06:20.370 it's always a more natural transition for a lot of hosts into the ads, 91 00:06:20.889 --> 00:06:25.529 and that is really that's one of the things that's that's special about the 92 00:06:25.649 --> 00:06:29.089 medium. It's like this integration of content. It's clearly delineated. You know, 93 00:06:29.170 --> 00:06:34.800 everybody has advertorial and editorial division, but it's still, you know, 94 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:39.519 something where when it goes into the mid role, especially, which is what 95 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:44.160 I usually coach advertisers to buy at first. Candidly, free rolds can work, 96 00:06:44.240 --> 00:06:48.430 but they just don't work as well as mid role advertisements do, and 97 00:06:48.629 --> 00:06:51.750 it makes sense to think about it. Well, you know, it's like 98 00:06:51.949 --> 00:06:57.589 when you're when you're just starting to listen to something. Are you engaged yet, 99 00:06:58.149 --> 00:07:01.220 or do you know that this host is, you know, doing a 100 00:07:01.300 --> 00:07:03.939 couple of minutes up front, but then they hit you with the ads? 101 00:07:04.019 --> 00:07:06.740 You kind of know where to skip to. That is part of it. 102 00:07:08.339 --> 00:07:12.180 We actually find that ads and podcasts, especially the ones in the middle of 103 00:07:12.220 --> 00:07:15.769 the episode, aren't as skipped through as you would think. That's always a 104 00:07:16.009 --> 00:07:18.810 you know, you can't really get listen and through. That's not data that's 105 00:07:18.810 --> 00:07:24.529 available to advertisers yet at scale to be able to transact on. I'm sure 106 00:07:24.610 --> 00:07:28.250 that will come someday. I hope it comes on the sooner side. But 107 00:07:28.370 --> 00:07:31.319 yeah, exactly. It's you know, when you're when you're beholden to companies 108 00:07:31.399 --> 00:07:35.959 like apple, who are just famously really open about privacy and really into sharing 109 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:40.959 data. HH, yeah, super like they're just like yeah, whatever, 110 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:44.550 come on it now. I mean that's when you think about the the players 111 00:07:44.589 --> 00:07:46.870 in this ecosystem and then you've got spotify coming up really fast and hot. 112 00:07:47.269 --> 00:07:51.629 But what they're going to do is mean essentially create another world will's garden. 113 00:07:53.110 --> 00:07:56.430 So it's just when you think about the way ads are served in the medium, 114 00:07:57.029 --> 00:08:00.939 that tends to be why mid roll advertisements work, while people are hooked 115 00:08:00.980 --> 00:08:05.819 into the content and it usually feels like a pretty natural transition in. It's 116 00:08:05.939 --> 00:08:09.459 harder to establish that with an audience at the beginning. That said, if 117 00:08:09.500 --> 00:08:13.490 you're doing shorter pre roll advertisements, there are some shows that only accept them 118 00:08:13.569 --> 00:08:18.610 and are super effective with that. So it's very that's one of the things 119 00:08:18.649 --> 00:08:20.730 that I hope people take away from this. The medium is Nason. There 120 00:08:20.930 --> 00:08:24.850 is no one playbook that's going to be a silver bullet. You know, 121 00:08:24.170 --> 00:08:28.879 I can hire a paid search or paid social professional who knows what they're doing, 122 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:31.720 who's grown brands before, but when it comes to podcast advertising and being 123 00:08:31.759 --> 00:08:37.559 able to do it in house at an advertiser, well, there's like thirty 124 00:08:37.639 --> 00:08:39.799 to forty people in the country who can do it and I employ seven full 125 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:43.830 time. So it's just and we have more in our consultant network who moonlight 126 00:08:43.909 --> 00:08:48.470 for us. So like they they actually work you know, for maybe a 127 00:08:48.750 --> 00:08:50.590 brand, but they want to actually do some work on the side, so 128 00:08:52.549 --> 00:08:56.139 they'll moonlight for us, because it is really it's a very small talent pool 129 00:08:56.179 --> 00:09:00.500 that I actually focus on growing. I love training people up in full channel 130 00:09:00.539 --> 00:09:03.139 management because it's just, you know, it's a hard channel the staff for 131 00:09:03.220 --> 00:09:07.019 that. So kind of a long answer to your question, but that is 132 00:09:07.100 --> 00:09:11.889 one of the one of the like an achronistic things about the medium is how 133 00:09:13.450 --> 00:09:16.370 radioe it fields. It's not a word, but it's it is now. 134 00:09:16.610 --> 00:09:22.370 Well, Alah, that that's totally fine. I'm good with that, Christina. 135 00:09:22.529 --> 00:09:24.360 Okay, so we talked a little bit about content. I totally agree 136 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:30.039 with you because I actually I'm the guy on the sweetfish team who turns all 137 00:09:30.080 --> 00:09:35.360 the group text messages Green. I'm the android Guy and I listen to my 138 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:39.070 podcasts in an APP called pocket cast and I've actually talked to IOS users, 139 00:09:39.190 --> 00:09:43.830 iphone users that say I use pocket casts as well, because it just has 140 00:09:43.909 --> 00:09:46.509 some phenomenal features, like you can pull up a podcast and you can search 141 00:09:46.870 --> 00:09:50.909 within that podcast for headlines, search the show notes and say like, Oh, 142 00:09:50.990 --> 00:09:54.620 this is an established show, like be to be growth that has six 143 00:09:54.820 --> 00:09:58.539 hundred plus episodes. I want to find every episode about Account Base Marketing or 144 00:09:58.580 --> 00:10:01.379 about ABM. So I love it for that. It also lets me create 145 00:10:01.460 --> 00:10:05.419 filters. This is going to sound like a host read ad for pocket cast, 146 00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:07.970 but I promise this is not sponsored. But it I love it because 147 00:10:09.409 --> 00:10:11.490 for you, yeah, exactly where your Promo Code be to be growth. 148 00:10:11.850 --> 00:10:16.370 You can create fil terms like Oh, this is family and finance, this 149 00:10:16.490 --> 00:10:18.450 is marketing, this is personal growth, and I can have all my podcast 150 00:10:18.490 --> 00:10:20.679 and say, all right, I want to listen to personal growth stuff on 151 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:24.080 Friday. I want to listen to marketing stuff tuesdays, Thursdays. Anyway. 152 00:10:24.639 --> 00:10:31.799 I bring that up because I for shows that pack the preroll with several ads 153 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.870 and they're longer in pocket casts. I can tell it for this show. 154 00:10:35.870 --> 00:10:39.710 Start at the two minute mark and I'm I'm literally skipping over all of those 155 00:10:39.750 --> 00:10:43.429 pre roles by default. I don't even have to press the button. To 156 00:10:43.549 --> 00:10:48.950 your point, if it's short and punchy, then I'll put up with it, 157 00:10:48.110 --> 00:10:52.179 for lack of a better term. So I agree. Just from from 158 00:10:52.259 --> 00:10:56.419 my experience as a consumer of podcasts as well, it makes sense to me 159 00:10:56.580 --> 00:10:58.700 that mid roll would be more effective than pre roll, even though you think 160 00:10:58.980 --> 00:11:03.419 pre roll, I'm getting them right out of the gate. They're not yet 161 00:11:03.539 --> 00:11:05.690 engage there. They're thinking about am I going to get value out of this 162 00:11:05.809 --> 00:11:11.330 episode? Wait, when's IT GOING TO START? So anyway that that's really 163 00:11:11.370 --> 00:11:16.129 good. So we're touching on content and I think we'll circle back to what 164 00:11:16.289 --> 00:11:18.960 actually can work well in those ads. But I also want to talk about 165 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:24.000 finding the right partner, whether you have a podcast in you're trying to find 166 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:28.279 sponsors or you're a sponsor trying to find the right podcast, how then you 167 00:11:28.399 --> 00:11:31.360 structure those deals for a winman on both sides, and then how you measure 168 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.870 success. So let's talk about finding the right partner. If you could speak 169 00:11:35.870 --> 00:11:39.269 to if you have a podcast and you're trying to find sponsors and find the 170 00:11:39.309 --> 00:11:41.990 right sponsors, so speak to that a little bit. And then the other 171 00:11:43.110 --> 00:11:46.350 side, if you are trying to find not only a good podcast that fits 172 00:11:46.389 --> 00:11:50.659 your niche, that that's fairly easy to do, but finding the right podcast. 173 00:11:50.059 --> 00:11:54.340 Talk talk about that finding piece from both directions. Yeah, no, 174 00:11:54.539 --> 00:11:58.539 it's so. Discovery is a problem in podcasting period. If you listen to 175 00:11:58.659 --> 00:12:01.610 podcast you know it's harder to find new shows to listen to. A lot 176 00:12:01.690 --> 00:12:05.370 of the time you hear things from word of mouth or you know, think 177 00:12:05.370 --> 00:12:07.450 about how you know you, the listener, found be to be growth. 178 00:12:07.529 --> 00:12:11.730 You probably found it by searching for shows that were related or maybe you found 179 00:12:11.730 --> 00:12:16.039 it from a friend. So the discovery part of it could be really hard 180 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:22.039 for advertisers as well. It's a pretty fragmented marketplace. So there are the 181 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:24.519 beginnings of network aggregation on the space their networks that have been around for a 182 00:12:24.559 --> 00:12:28.440 few years. There's not a lot of programmatic inventory available and the way that 183 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:33.909 programmatic technology has been applied to this medium to date it's like not ready for 184 00:12:33.070 --> 00:12:37.750 prime time yet. You know, we actually just did literally I just got 185 00:12:37.789 --> 00:12:41.389 the results from intest we did for a an advertiser who's only live and twelve 186 00:12:41.470 --> 00:12:46.940 major metros across the country and we were able to do like a split test 187 00:12:46.139 --> 00:12:50.779 and basically do some podcasts that were Geo targeted, dynamically inserted the whole thing, 188 00:12:52.179 --> 00:12:56.220 and then we did many that were national and we actually saw our cost 189 00:12:56.259 --> 00:13:00.850 proquisition CPI was half for the national shows that it was for Geo because of 190 00:13:00.929 --> 00:13:03.690 the premium, I know, because of the premium you're paying for targeting but 191 00:13:03.809 --> 00:13:07.610 also because a lot of the shows that you want to buy do not offer 192 00:13:07.690 --> 00:13:13.480 dynamic consertion at scale yet. It is much more of a tool that you 193 00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:18.759 can use to monetize remnant inventory. There are some network aggregators like megaphone and 194 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:22.799 art nineen that do that. So you know it really when you think about 195 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:28.190 how to find shows, a lot of it is the same discover you do 196 00:13:28.269 --> 00:13:31.789 as a consumer. Candidly, if you don't have subject matter expertise in house 197 00:13:31.830 --> 00:13:35.789 as an advertiser, I always recommend people try to find somebody, either a 198 00:13:37.350 --> 00:13:41.899 consultant or an agency or just somebody to help you get into the channel because 199 00:13:41.899 --> 00:13:46.100 it's nascent. They're just it's not like paid search where like you know how 200 00:13:46.139 --> 00:13:48.539 many add groups to structure. You know, like what your keyword structure should 201 00:13:48.539 --> 00:13:52.100 look like, you know what your ads should look like for best practices. 202 00:13:52.580 --> 00:13:54.620 They're not as established in this channel. So you do want to find people 203 00:13:54.700 --> 00:13:58.690 to help you who know what the heck they're doing and in a lot of 204 00:13:58.769 --> 00:14:01.129 cases, actually a lot of the the salespeople and publishers that I work with, 205 00:14:01.289 --> 00:14:05.129 our experts of podcast advertising. I've actually hired of you because it's a 206 00:14:05.250 --> 00:14:09.519 space that's that's kind of Nason again. I keep saying that word, but 207 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:16.559 it's just so new. Even though podcasting has been around since the early auts, 208 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:20.080 monetization of podcasting has really picked up steam in the last five or six 209 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:24.309 years. So when you think about that from a show perspective, then to 210 00:14:24.429 --> 00:14:28.350 take to think about how do I attract sponsors for my show? There's a 211 00:14:28.429 --> 00:14:31.549 couple of basic things. So one, make sure you have a show website. 212 00:14:31.909 --> 00:14:35.750 Make sure it's up to date, make sure it has contact information on 213 00:14:35.870 --> 00:14:39.980 it and my favorite advice that I give two shows, check your DM's and 214 00:14:41.139 --> 00:14:45.580 check your inbox. I can't tell you how many advertisers we've gone out for 215 00:14:45.820 --> 00:14:50.019 because we have, you know, over a hundred network and publisher relationships all 216 00:14:50.059 --> 00:14:54.250 the time that we that were using and working with and we know these people 217 00:14:54.289 --> 00:14:56.730 really well, we know their shows really well. But I can't like we 218 00:14:56.809 --> 00:15:01.289 go out for independence all the time just to be able to find, like, 219 00:15:01.570 --> 00:15:05.649 you know, a show like be to be growth that might really work 220 00:15:05.730 --> 00:15:09.360 well for certain subset of advertisers. Like will go out and find those shows. 221 00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:13.080 Then we send emails or DM and we never get responses and I think 222 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:16.919 sometimes it's because like as a show, you're going to get a lot of 223 00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:20.200 a lot of really interesting correspondence. So you got to kind of sift through 224 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:24.549 and way through. But seriously, I can't tell you how many independence we 225 00:15:24.669 --> 00:15:30.789 work with who it just started with. Like I actually slid into somebody's INSTAGRAM 226 00:15:30.830 --> 00:15:33.350 DMS and was like when are you starting a podcast, and they were like, 227 00:15:33.470 --> 00:15:35.740 Oh, I'm starting one soon, and this is over two years ago, 228 00:15:35.899 --> 00:15:39.659 and I was there first sponsor when I was in house as an advertiser. 229 00:15:39.259 --> 00:15:43.059 So you know, it's really like the discovery piece of it. It's 230 00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:48.899 painful. The other part that I'll say is if you feel passionately about a 231 00:15:48.059 --> 00:15:52.330 product, you should reach out to them as somebody who wants to do a 232 00:15:52.450 --> 00:15:56.769 read for them, or as a producer who knows that your host would kill 233 00:15:56.809 --> 00:16:00.929 it, or as a salesperson who's like wow, this person like, I 234 00:16:00.169 --> 00:16:04.440 see that they use this in their regular life. I reach out to them. 235 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:08.519 Like you would be surprised how many times we take those those inquiries, 236 00:16:08.600 --> 00:16:11.360 and we're like I looks like a solid show. You know you need to 237 00:16:11.399 --> 00:16:15.600 get a media hit on hand, but you know and make sure that the 238 00:16:15.639 --> 00:16:18.230 show is structured in a way that it can support as but yeah, reach 239 00:16:18.350 --> 00:16:22.389 out, try. Yeah, so who is who's someone in the space? 240 00:16:22.590 --> 00:16:26.149 You know, if we're trying to reach BB marketers or we're trying to reach 241 00:16:26.350 --> 00:16:30.190 HR professionals and we have an engaged community. What are the things that we're 242 00:16:30.269 --> 00:16:34.500 passionate about that that, if we were sharing that passion, would would be 243 00:16:34.620 --> 00:16:40.220 very natural and would convert at a high rate because of that that authenticity there. 244 00:16:40.419 --> 00:16:41.700 And then go and reach out to those folks. Right, I've seen 245 00:16:41.779 --> 00:16:45.700 people do it in the sales space, folks like John Barrows reaching out to 246 00:16:47.250 --> 00:16:49.769 right. There are tech companies that make a lot of sense for us to 247 00:16:49.889 --> 00:16:53.210 work with, like a sales loft or gong or someone like that. So, 248 00:16:53.649 --> 00:16:59.009 especially with niche be tob podcast, it might not be that you have 249 00:16:59.129 --> 00:17:02.159 to go too far from home to find those sponsors. Kind of what I 250 00:17:02.279 --> 00:17:07.200 hear you saying, because you can kind of reverse engineer those relationships and those 251 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:11.240 natural seguys that are probably happening offline. But just all right, let's formalize 252 00:17:11.319 --> 00:17:17.750 this into a publisher and sponsor relationship. Right. Yeah, it's a lot 253 00:17:17.869 --> 00:17:21.990 of that. And then the other thing is like, don't just think about 254 00:17:22.150 --> 00:17:26.349 the bee to be products that you would endorse. Like I'll give you a 255 00:17:26.390 --> 00:17:30.140 perfect example. We work with doors. They're an amazing company and I don't 256 00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:33.099 know about you, but, especially with everything happening with Covid, I have 257 00:17:33.660 --> 00:17:37.099 put that APP through its caces. So when you think about being able to 258 00:17:37.220 --> 00:17:41.460 read credibly for something like doors, I don't know, do you think busy 259 00:17:41.460 --> 00:17:45.329 professionals who are focused on be tob marketing might also want to have dinner delivered? 260 00:17:45.650 --> 00:17:47.730 Like it makes sense. You know, if you look at one of 261 00:17:47.769 --> 00:17:51.809 the most successful campaigns in the space, at dip recruiter, it's a scaled 262 00:17:52.009 --> 00:17:56.650 campaign that like they're some of their best performing genres are like male comedy and 263 00:17:56.769 --> 00:17:59.000 news and politics, and you're like, Oh wait, why is that? 264 00:17:59.079 --> 00:18:00.680 It's like, well, that's where you can reach decisionmakers. I don't know 265 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:06.680 about you, but when I listen to podcast like my favorite podcasts are they 266 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:10.680 have nothing to do with marketing or business, and I want it that way. 267 00:18:11.160 --> 00:18:15.029 And so you can actually reach people like us who are listening to content. 268 00:18:15.390 --> 00:18:19.269 But because the channel is priced still pretty affordably and you can get in 269 00:18:19.990 --> 00:18:25.470 at a lower initial cost than a lot of other offline marketing channels, you 270 00:18:25.549 --> 00:18:30.140 know, you can actually test into other types of shows and audiences that you 271 00:18:30.259 --> 00:18:36.579 also might just just not have thought were going to be a perfect fit. 272 00:18:37.099 --> 00:18:38.339 So it kind of works both ways. You know, you do, you 273 00:18:38.579 --> 00:18:42.890 logan. Do not only have to endorse like a really amazing sauce program or 274 00:18:44.609 --> 00:18:48.250 some sort of hosting tool or something like that. You know there's a square 275 00:18:48.250 --> 00:18:52.569 space that that you know, square space could be really applicable for anybody. 276 00:18:52.569 --> 00:18:55.839 That's another good one. That's a great inhouse program that's been live for years. 277 00:18:56.160 --> 00:19:00.240 So if you think about some of these programs and how they're thinking about 278 00:19:02.039 --> 00:19:07.160 integrating with shows, you'll find that most of the products who are scaled in 279 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:10.750 the space, even if they are be to be, are not only buying 280 00:19:10.869 --> 00:19:15.150 be tob and endemic focus shows and lets you test into other audiences that you 281 00:19:15.230 --> 00:19:19.150 can then take to other marketing channels and and extrapolate it and really find some 282 00:19:19.230 --> 00:19:25.660 success with. We've done a lot of that. Hey, everybody logan with 283 00:19:25.700 --> 00:19:29.700 sweet fish here. You probably already know that we think you should start a 284 00:19:29.740 --> 00:19:33.339 podcast if you haven't already. But what if you have and you're asking these 285 00:19:33.460 --> 00:19:37.420 kinds of questions? How much has our podcast impacted revenue this year? How's 286 00:19:37.460 --> 00:19:42.529 our sales team actually leveraging the PODCAST content? If you can't answer these questions, 287 00:19:42.650 --> 00:19:47.569 you're actually not alone. This is why I cast it created the very 288 00:19:47.690 --> 00:19:52.319 first content marketing platform made specifically for be tob podcasting. Now you can more 289 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:59.400 easily search and share your audio content while getting greater visibility into the impact of 290 00:19:59.559 --> 00:20:04.160 your podcast. The marketing teams at Drift Terminus and here at sweetfish have started 291 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:08.869 using casted to get more value out of our podcasts and you probably can to. 292 00:20:10.470 --> 00:20:15.069 You can check out the product in action and casted dot US growth. 293 00:20:15.509 --> 00:20:22.140 That's sea steed dot US growth. All right, let's get back to the 294 00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:29.500 show. Yeah, that makes sense and I've heard that zippercruter campaign. One 295 00:20:29.539 --> 00:20:33.460 of the BB shows that I listen to the salesman podcast with will baron, 296 00:20:33.539 --> 00:20:38.569 I believe, out of the UK. He's he's got the Zippercruter ads host 297 00:20:38.690 --> 00:20:42.769 read, I think, midroll. So just kind of proving out all the 298 00:20:42.849 --> 00:20:48.490 advice. So for everybody listening to this, I'm kind of putting my stamp 299 00:20:48.529 --> 00:20:52.200 of approval on everything Christine is saying because I'm seeing it out there in the 300 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:56.160 market. So let's talk about structure. We talked a little bit about where 301 00:20:56.200 --> 00:20:59.559 to place your content. Some of you know what that content can look like, 302 00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:03.799 but talk to us a little bit about structuring the deal as you approached. 303 00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:07.549 Folks, let's say you are a podcast like ours, be tob growth. 304 00:21:07.589 --> 00:21:11.509 We've tried a couple of different ways, and we're talking Niche BEB podcast. 305 00:21:12.029 --> 00:21:17.630 You know, there's kind of finding, finding advertisers, setting your rates 306 00:21:17.710 --> 00:21:21.299 for Preroll, mid role, post role, trying to get a commitment of, 307 00:21:21.539 --> 00:21:26.539 you know, one episode a week for two or three months or I've 308 00:21:26.619 --> 00:21:30.259 talked to other people who have said No. We kind of presented it as 309 00:21:30.420 --> 00:21:33.210 this all in one campaign. Right, it's going to be the PODCAST, 310 00:21:33.210 --> 00:21:37.490 it's going to be our events, it's going to be we're going to look 311 00:21:37.529 --> 00:21:41.930 for ways to naturally bring up your brand in addition to the ads themselves. 312 00:21:42.009 --> 00:21:48.240 So what are some best practices from the from the PODCAST perspective? And then 313 00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:52.200 we'll get to structuring it when when you're the advertiser. But any tips there, 314 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:56.599 especially for niche focused brands that have a podcast in the bauby space, 315 00:21:57.200 --> 00:22:03.069 when we think about how to structure adds and how to attract sponsors, you 316 00:22:03.109 --> 00:22:07.109 actually do have to think about it on on both ends of the spectrum because 317 00:22:07.150 --> 00:22:14.710 as an advertiser I'm looking for integrations that are going to benefit the brand, 318 00:22:14.750 --> 00:22:18.619 that are going to educate people about the brand and ultimately are going to inspire 319 00:22:18.779 --> 00:22:22.420 some sort of action, and that is a lot of those. A lot 320 00:22:22.460 --> 00:22:25.819 of the advertisers in the podcast space are high growth check companies, if you 321 00:22:25.900 --> 00:22:27.900 look at some of the leaders in the space. So when we think about 322 00:22:27.900 --> 00:22:32.130 how to structure advertisements, the answer to your question as to like, should 323 00:22:32.130 --> 00:22:33.809 I do a big sponsorship? Should I do individual show? Should I do 324 00:22:34.329 --> 00:22:37.849 you know a requirement that you have to buy x amount of shows in a 325 00:22:37.930 --> 00:22:40.970 week? The answer is yes, it could be any and all of those 326 00:22:41.009 --> 00:22:44.089 things, which is not what you want to hear, but it really depends 327 00:22:44.130 --> 00:22:47.000 on the type of sponsor that you're trying to attract. If you're trying to 328 00:22:47.079 --> 00:22:52.359 attract a brand or marquis sponsorship, expect the sales cycle on that to be 329 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:56.200 a lot longer, candidly, because it's a bigger investment that a brand has. 330 00:22:56.279 --> 00:23:00.309 To me the other challenges just honestly, it's a hard swing to to 331 00:23:00.509 --> 00:23:04.269 take for a brand who's never tested into a show before. To do something 332 00:23:04.309 --> 00:23:07.990 like a marquis sponsorship that's like a three or six month sponsorship. It's just 333 00:23:08.109 --> 00:23:12.700 not how most podcast adds are structured. Most are structured to where you're paying 334 00:23:12.859 --> 00:23:18.859 on a download basis and that's an iab metric that has finally been standardized in 335 00:23:18.859 --> 00:23:21.380 the last couple of years. So if you look online, you go to 336 00:23:21.460 --> 00:23:26.299 the IAB you can understand stand more around download guidelines and how to price and 337 00:23:26.660 --> 00:23:30.569 basically size your audience. Where should should people just Google I a beat? 338 00:23:30.650 --> 00:23:33.210 What's the what's the best place for them to go? If there's someone listening 339 00:23:33.250 --> 00:23:37.089 to this, they say I have a podcast, I've never really gone out 340 00:23:37.170 --> 00:23:40.410 tried to monetize it. I don't even know where to start. Where should 341 00:23:40.410 --> 00:23:45.400 they start up? So good question. You can look at if you google 342 00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:55.039 I a be podcast guidelines version too or I ab podcast metric guidelines version two. 343 00:23:55.200 --> 00:23:59.349 That I'll get you there. So those are just download metrics that, 344 00:23:59.670 --> 00:24:03.150 like when you think about, okay, however many listeners let's do, I'm 345 00:24:03.150 --> 00:24:07.150 going to use ground numbers because you know math. So when we think about 346 00:24:07.150 --> 00:24:10.500 like, let's just say a show has a hundred thousand listeners and episode which, 347 00:24:10.500 --> 00:24:12.420 when we think about download metrics, that's really what we're looking at. 348 00:24:12.500 --> 00:24:17.740 It's how many downloads do you get within a certain time frame, usually a 349 00:24:17.859 --> 00:24:22.099 thirty day window, but of that individual episode, and that's how most sponsors 350 00:24:22.140 --> 00:24:26.250 are buying ads. When we think about the medium, when we think about 351 00:24:26.250 --> 00:24:29.250 you know, do you buy an at every week? Do you wait? 352 00:24:29.970 --> 00:24:33.609 You'll notice that many brands choose to put space in between when they are episodes 353 00:24:33.690 --> 00:24:37.680 and flighting. So if you fit, if you were looking and you're saying, 354 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:41.839 okay, how do people consume this medium? There's a lot of delayed 355 00:24:41.960 --> 00:24:47.720 consumption in the medium and what that means is that some people might be hearing 356 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:49.799 this episode and hearing you and I talk three weeks from now, for week 357 00:24:49.960 --> 00:24:53.549 from now. It's evergreen content. This is not something that you know. 358 00:24:53.670 --> 00:24:56.430 To your point, you just talked about pocketcast, which is a great app 359 00:24:56.509 --> 00:25:00.789 but it just doesn't have a ton of consumer adoption. There are like pocket 360 00:25:00.829 --> 00:25:03.950 has, overcast, there's all of these ones that are kind of like for 361 00:25:03.069 --> 00:25:07.859 the podcast super user, but most people do still use apple podcasts, the 362 00:25:07.940 --> 00:25:12.859 endemic APP, or they're using some sort of streaming platform to listen to podcasts, 363 00:25:12.900 --> 00:25:18.700 like spotify and so when we when we think about the way that essentially 364 00:25:18.700 --> 00:25:25.049 the way that you're able to price the medium based on those downloads, then 365 00:25:25.089 --> 00:25:30.049 you get to a costper Melae or cost per thousand impressions. They're not impressions. 366 00:25:30.529 --> 00:25:33.369 It's just how people use download an impression. interchangeably, they are two 367 00:25:33.410 --> 00:25:40.319 very different metrics. Impressions are not. You're not really able to get quite 368 00:25:40.359 --> 00:25:44.200 two impressions yet, right, because you when we think about your exact exactly, 369 00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:47.440 I mean people start talking about it and they're like, yeah, we're 370 00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:49.309 charging on impressions, we're doing dynamic concertion. I'm like, yeah, that's 371 00:25:49.309 --> 00:25:52.269 just for the insertion of the add that's like when a pixel loads online. 372 00:25:52.349 --> 00:25:56.670 You know, people are transacting on the ability. Now we're not there yet 373 00:25:56.789 --> 00:26:00.630 with podcasts. And so when you think about your cost per thousand impressions or 374 00:26:00.670 --> 00:26:03.190 cost per thousand downloads that you're going to charge somebody for and show like be 375 00:26:03.299 --> 00:26:07.259 tob growth, I mean you're probably talking about a pretty high CPM. PODCASTS, 376 00:26:07.299 --> 00:26:11.380 YOUPM's range from ten to a hundred dollars. I'm not kidding, like 377 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:15.859 it's the biggest range that I've seen in a long time for a medium and 378 00:26:17.500 --> 00:26:19.849 when you think about shows like a be tob growth, who you're not, 379 00:26:19.970 --> 00:26:22.650 think you're never going to be Joe Rogan. I mean it would be awesome 380 00:26:22.650 --> 00:26:26.130 if you were, but there just aren't that many people who are interested in 381 00:26:26.289 --> 00:26:30.329 this topic. So you might be the Joe Rogan to be to be podcast, 382 00:26:30.450 --> 00:26:33.440 which is a dubious title but a pretty good one. And so like 383 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:37.000 you think about it and you're like, okay, I've achieved scale for this 384 00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:41.279 topic, but you know, you still might only have twenty fivezero downloads an 385 00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:45.319 episode, and so that's why you usually try when you're thinking about pricing an 386 00:26:45.359 --> 00:26:49.549 audience, candidly, from this is from the publisher side, you really have 387 00:26:49.670 --> 00:26:53.190 to think about what kind of value that audience has to advertisers and you might 388 00:26:53.390 --> 00:26:56.990 need to test things at first. So I'm not going to lie. After 389 00:26:57.109 --> 00:27:02.059 this podcast I'm probably going to reach out about sponsorship because, you know, 390 00:27:02.220 --> 00:27:07.140 when we think about how to structure things, I like working with shows who 391 00:27:07.140 --> 00:27:11.740 are realistic, who understand that they are trying to learn something too at the 392 00:27:11.779 --> 00:27:15.420 same time, which is how much can you charge advertisers? And I'm willing 393 00:27:15.500 --> 00:27:19.609 to play. Will share performance, will share metrics back because I want people 394 00:27:19.650 --> 00:27:26.930 to understand what the net result of these ads is, because then they can 395 00:27:26.970 --> 00:27:30.720 do a more effective job, and that kind of like three hundred and sixty 396 00:27:30.759 --> 00:27:33.039 feedback cycle, takes you a little while to get into. You really want 397 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:37.920 to work with advertisers who know what they're doing, who are investing in the 398 00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:41.079 channel, if you can at first just to get a sense for like, 399 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:45.150 how should I be pricing this? How much are people willing to pay for 400 00:27:45.190 --> 00:27:48.710 it, and are they getting their money's worth? And that's I mean, 401 00:27:48.789 --> 00:27:52.910 that's really what you're trying to solve for when you're when you're either buying or 402 00:27:52.109 --> 00:27:55.750 selling in the channel. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I love that. 403 00:27:55.789 --> 00:27:59.779 You point to the fact that publishers and advertisers are both trying to get to 404 00:27:59.900 --> 00:28:03.700 the same point. They're trying to structure a win win. You know what 405 00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:07.220 I hear you saying there? That's good news for folks that have a podcast 406 00:28:07.579 --> 00:28:11.660 for their brand in a be tob context, is that that CPM can likely 407 00:28:11.660 --> 00:28:15.609 be on the higher end because you have a very much engaged audience. You 408 00:28:15.650 --> 00:28:18.849 might not have Joe Rogan reach. You heard it here first, though. 409 00:28:18.890 --> 00:28:23.170 Christina called me the Joe Rogan of be Tob podcasting. We're saving that snippet. 410 00:28:23.569 --> 00:28:26.759 No, not, not at all. I'm not. I do not. 411 00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:32.599 I literally just posted on Linkedin. Don't call yourself a thought leader, 412 00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:34.759 so I don't think I can call myself the Joe Roken of be to be 413 00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:40.160 either. Totally tongue into care guys. But what you're saying there is that 414 00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:45.029 because you have a niche audience and you're also you also have advertisers who have 415 00:28:45.349 --> 00:28:49.829 a high ACV, they have a very high LTV. Don't cut yourself short 416 00:28:51.029 --> 00:28:53.789 thinking I've got to be on the low end of this CPM because I only 417 00:28:53.910 --> 00:28:59.619 get to two thousand, five thousand, ten thousand downards per episode. You 418 00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:04.220 have a very targeted niche and you also have advertisers who are not, you 419 00:29:04.299 --> 00:29:10.250 know, getting five dollars a pop per conversion. They're getting tens of thousands, 420 00:29:10.490 --> 00:29:14.730 you know, if not introduction into a deal that could would be seven 421 00:29:14.769 --> 00:29:18.250 figures or more right, and so approaching it that way but also, like 422 00:29:18.369 --> 00:29:22.289 you said, with a little bit of humility and willingness to test, which 423 00:29:22.369 --> 00:29:25.200 leads me to the last part. We've talked about content, we've talked about 424 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:27.759 finding partners, we've talked about structure. The fourth thing I wanted to talk 425 00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:33.319 to you about is measurement, because you come from from paid search and and 426 00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:37.039 looking at everything that is so measurable. For a lot of folks, podcasting 427 00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:40.630 is just this black box, whether they're the podcaster. Try, you know, 428 00:29:40.670 --> 00:29:42.869 I get the questions all the time. Can't we get demographics on on 429 00:29:44.069 --> 00:29:48.230 our listeners? Know? Yet spotify for podcasters does have a little bit more 430 00:29:48.509 --> 00:29:52.750 granularity into that. If you sign up for it's an extract relation of a 431 00:29:52.299 --> 00:29:56.460 population. You know what I mean? Like you can't extract late even that. 432 00:29:56.660 --> 00:30:00.180 Yeah, I mean we just have to kind of approach that very carefully. 433 00:30:00.500 --> 00:30:06.019 But talk a little bit about how both publishers and advertisers can think about 434 00:30:06.539 --> 00:30:11.650 measurement together to determine is this a success? Yeah, and that's why, 435 00:30:11.690 --> 00:30:14.009 you see, like, if you look at all of the brands in the 436 00:30:14.049 --> 00:30:18.089 space, everybody uses some sort of Promo code or vanity or l please go 437 00:30:18.250 --> 00:30:21.519 here to do x, Y and Z. The only reason they're doing that 438 00:30:21.799 --> 00:30:26.079 is to see what kind of a direct response their ads are listening. And 439 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:29.000 when we think about, you know, the point that you just made about 440 00:30:29.000 --> 00:30:34.829 LTV and high potential customer requisition costcap, that is an excellent point because if 441 00:30:34.869 --> 00:30:38.869 you also think about it, then to extrapolate, like why? Why would 442 00:30:38.910 --> 00:30:44.349 zip recruiter ever, do you know, Joe Rogue at all these big comedy 443 00:30:44.390 --> 00:30:47.230 podcasts and it's like well, you know, think about it. You're going 444 00:30:47.269 --> 00:30:49.779 to have a very different media plan if you have a sixty dollar CAC and 445 00:30:49.900 --> 00:30:55.099 a six hundred dollar CAC. You know, if you test one show three 446 00:30:55.180 --> 00:30:57.940 times for six thousand dollars and two thousand dollars in episode, if you have 447 00:30:57.980 --> 00:31:02.339 a six hundred cat, you only need ten attributed conversions for it to pay 448 00:31:02.420 --> 00:31:06.289 back. I mean that's that's not a lot of conversions, a pretty low 449 00:31:06.369 --> 00:31:10.009 conversion rate, and that's why you see advertisers who are, you know, 450 00:31:10.089 --> 00:31:14.369 kind of smart, getting at this channel early because they can triangulate that direct 451 00:31:14.410 --> 00:31:18.000 response and then usually through some form of survey based attributions. If you ever 452 00:31:18.039 --> 00:31:21.720 go through a checkout flow and you're being asked, how did you hear about 453 00:31:21.720 --> 00:31:26.920 us, that's the advertiser trying to ascertain, besides last click, what actually 454 00:31:27.160 --> 00:31:33.710 happened when people were exposed to my message. And what you do as an 455 00:31:33.750 --> 00:31:38.390 advertiser is you take the extrapolation of direct and indirect responses and you're using some 456 00:31:38.549 --> 00:31:45.269 sort of a multiply or some sort of multiplicative mechanism to ascertain what you're indirect 457 00:31:45.349 --> 00:31:48.099 and direct are. You pull them together and then you can get a feel 458 00:31:48.259 --> 00:31:52.740 for okay, even though when people listen to a podcast, they might, 459 00:31:52.980 --> 00:31:56.380 you know, people who listen to this might start googling, you know, 460 00:31:56.579 --> 00:32:00.660 instead of like if we were doing and added it was like Promo Code, 461 00:32:00.740 --> 00:32:05.609 be to be growth for ten dollars off your widget, and people might start 462 00:32:05.609 --> 00:32:08.049 actually googling that. And so what happens is you've captured these people. Be 463 00:32:08.130 --> 00:32:13.009 a brand search. All of a sudden paid searchs looks like it's doing amazing, 464 00:32:13.450 --> 00:32:16.680 but you can use survey base or multitouch or some sort of indirect attribution 465 00:32:16.960 --> 00:32:21.519 to say, actually, people did not just wake up this morning and search 466 00:32:21.640 --> 00:32:24.480 for widgets. Something made them do that, and then you can understand, 467 00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:30.589 by virtue of having this clear call to action plus some sort of indirect methodology, 468 00:32:30.269 --> 00:32:35.349 what people are actually doing when they're exposed to your messaging. And that's 469 00:32:35.390 --> 00:32:38.230 the part that like. If you think about the advertisers that have been able 470 00:32:38.230 --> 00:32:45.779 to capitalize on this medium, you'll you'll notice that they are less traditional advertisers. 471 00:32:45.099 --> 00:32:49.539 Big Brands have had a hard time breaking into the channel brick and more 472 00:32:49.579 --> 00:32:52.420 to retail hard time breaking in because of the measurement challenges that are endemic. 473 00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:58.970 The other thing is you have to wait for results to accumulate. So there's 474 00:32:58.970 --> 00:33:04.730 a concept in media like reaching frequency accumulation. Essentially just what you're doing is 475 00:33:04.809 --> 00:33:07.529 hoping that eventually people, enough people, are exposed to your message and then 476 00:33:07.529 --> 00:33:10.930 you hit a tipping point of frequency, at which point you achieve awareness, 477 00:33:10.970 --> 00:33:15.319 consideration, etc. Right, that cycle is longer. For podcast I don't 478 00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:20.640 know about you, Loogan, but my podcast que is a graveyard, but 479 00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:22.319 in a good way. Like if I'm if I'm traveling, there might be 480 00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:25.559 times where I have a bunch of episodes downloaded and I'm like, oh sweet, 481 00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:30.269 I have a buss. That's exactly why we tell the BB podcasters that 482 00:33:30.349 --> 00:33:35.910 we work with don't skip holidays, don't skip weekends, because there's a delay 483 00:33:36.069 --> 00:33:39.950 in consumption. Not like social media right, where you know Monday morning is 484 00:33:40.109 --> 00:33:45.140 really hot for Linkedin. Right, you're going to be in their feed one 485 00:33:45.180 --> 00:33:47.660 way or the other and then it's going to be based on headline. Have 486 00:33:47.819 --> 00:33:51.619 I seen the show enough. Do I do? I trust it, you 487 00:33:51.700 --> 00:33:53.140 know do I do? I trust that I'm going to get value when I 488 00:33:53.339 --> 00:33:57.970 actually don't skip this episode. So that's a great point, not only for 489 00:33:58.289 --> 00:34:02.609 advertisers but for folks who have a podcast for their BB brand. Stay consistent, 490 00:34:02.890 --> 00:34:07.369 because the consumption is very rarely in real time. I mean people are 491 00:34:07.409 --> 00:34:12.440 not waiting with bated breath for the drop of our next episode. But if 492 00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:15.679 it is that muscle memory of I listen to the show every day or every 493 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:21.360 week, once I get to it, then it is serial in nature right. 494 00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:24.070 And what's exactly, and what's interesting about that, is a lot of 495 00:34:24.150 --> 00:34:28.309 advertisers will be like I should skip Labor Day or I should skipt Martin with 496 00:34:28.389 --> 00:34:30.750 or can or I'm like no, we are not doing that. We're going 497 00:34:30.989 --> 00:34:36.150 to and when we think about fighting because of this delayed consumption, that's where 498 00:34:36.150 --> 00:34:38.300 you actually don't want to front load your campaigns with a lot of spend. 499 00:34:39.099 --> 00:34:43.539 You don't want an advertiser to be in your podcast week over week, because 500 00:34:43.619 --> 00:34:46.300 what that winds up doing is, because of this delayed consumption factor, that 501 00:34:46.699 --> 00:34:50.980 advertiser will accrue a lot of spend and then it's going to be hard for 502 00:34:51.099 --> 00:34:54.449 them to swing around and get enough conversions to back that out, because then 503 00:34:54.530 --> 00:34:59.289 you just aren't you're erring on the side of too much frequency. And so 504 00:34:59.610 --> 00:35:02.050 when we think about what your if you're sponsoring a daily show and you're an 505 00:35:02.090 --> 00:35:07.440 advertiser, you would recommend and doing once or twice a week for three months, 506 00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:09.559 as opposed to every day for thirty days as an initial test. Right, 507 00:35:09.559 --> 00:35:13.920 I actually recommend. So there's a few ways to flight daily podcast and 508 00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:16.320 there's a few ways to flight other podcasts. For daily there's a couple of 509 00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:19.920 ways to test it. So one way is that you can do one week 510 00:35:20.000 --> 00:35:23.349 on, meaning five episodes, and then two weeks or three weeks off or 511 00:35:23.469 --> 00:35:28.150 one week off. So I would actually err on the side of like test 512 00:35:28.230 --> 00:35:30.389 all of the episodes in a week. Maybe you could do that. The 513 00:35:30.550 --> 00:35:34.989 other thing you can do is test, to your point, one or two 514 00:35:35.030 --> 00:35:37.619 episodes a week, but you're still going to want to allow for a lag. 515 00:35:38.019 --> 00:35:43.139 So, depending on the pricing of the show and how it's structured, 516 00:35:43.579 --> 00:35:45.860 that's where you would make the decision. Okay, I'm going to do a 517 00:35:45.940 --> 00:35:47.900 couple of episodes or I'm going to do, you know, a full week 518 00:35:47.940 --> 00:35:52.329 of episodes. You know, shows that are like today explained and like those 519 00:35:52.369 --> 00:35:58.730 kinds of shows. You know, they tend to actually every daily show really 520 00:35:58.849 --> 00:36:04.050 performs differently. There are other shows like, you know, like some of 521 00:36:04.090 --> 00:36:07.719 the news and politics podcasts out there, where you really will just do one 522 00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:12.639 day and then wait two weeks or three weeks and then do another insertion. 523 00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:17.239 So it's very, very dependent on the cost structure of the show and the 524 00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:22.630 listener patterns. To your point about consumption, so we make some assumptions on 525 00:36:22.670 --> 00:36:25.389 the advertiser side and they're just like rules of thumb. They're ever changing. 526 00:36:25.550 --> 00:36:30.909 But a couple of things, just like quick snippis, in terms of consumption 527 00:36:30.070 --> 00:36:34.500 and in terms of downloads and post downloads, a car within forty eight hours 528 00:36:34.699 --> 00:36:37.380 of the episode dropping. But then you see a tail for a week. 529 00:36:38.179 --> 00:36:43.860 That then kind of like tails out to somewhere between like eighty to ninety percent 530 00:36:43.900 --> 00:36:46.690 of your downloads and then when you think about the long, long tail, 531 00:36:46.769 --> 00:36:51.889 like you might scoop that extra ten or twenty percent over a year. So 532 00:36:52.010 --> 00:36:55.210 that's your download activity right, but then your consumption legs. So you're going 533 00:36:55.210 --> 00:36:59.010 to have some consumption in those first few days. Then you're going to have 534 00:36:59.170 --> 00:37:01.880 consumption actually leg over about a twenty one day period, and that's where we 535 00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:07.840 tend to see like as advertisers, a twenty one day period post episode integration 536 00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:13.000 is usually a good way to understand. Okay, what did this actually do? 537 00:37:13.480 --> 00:37:16.829 Because so many people might download a few days after the episode airs, 538 00:37:16.909 --> 00:37:21.429 but they might not listen to it until the following weekends and then you're a 539 00:37:21.590 --> 00:37:24.750 week and a half or two weeks delayed from when you actually integrated with the 540 00:37:24.789 --> 00:37:29.670 episode. So that's why you got to be really patient on every side, 541 00:37:29.829 --> 00:37:32.019 like as an advertiser, you've got to be patient, as a publisher you've 542 00:37:32.019 --> 00:37:37.460 got to be patient. The medium just require patients because of how people consume 543 00:37:37.619 --> 00:37:40.940 it and then act on the information they discover. Man, I love that, 544 00:37:40.980 --> 00:37:45.010 Christine. I love this this framework that we talked about. Think about 545 00:37:45.050 --> 00:37:49.090 your content, your placement, think about finding the right partner, which you 546 00:37:49.170 --> 00:37:52.650 gave some great tips. They're structuring the agreement, and then how to measure 547 00:37:52.690 --> 00:37:57.849 it. Patients is is definitely the key there, and I love the conversation 548 00:37:57.889 --> 00:38:04.559 about just host read versus kind of preread. Precan producer read stuff as well 549 00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:07.719 as mid roll over preroll a lot of the things you're saying just match up 550 00:38:07.800 --> 00:38:13.469 with my own consumption as a very, you know, heavy podcast listener myself. 551 00:38:13.630 --> 00:38:15.949 So, Christina, if anybody listening to this would like to stay connected 552 00:38:15.989 --> 00:38:20.429 with you or ask any follow up questions, either as a publisher or an 553 00:38:20.429 --> 00:38:25.389 advertiser in the podcasting space or as an aspiring publisher or advertiser in the podcast 554 00:38:25.389 --> 00:38:29.940 space, how could they get in touch with you? You can find me 555 00:38:29.980 --> 00:38:32.739 on Linkedin. You can also feel free to reach out to me via email. 556 00:38:32.900 --> 00:38:37.739 My email is Christina at right side up docom, and you can also 557 00:38:37.739 --> 00:38:42.329 come to right side upcom and reach me there or reach any of our our 558 00:38:42.449 --> 00:38:45.570 marketing experts there. I love it and you will pay attention to those emails 559 00:38:45.570 --> 00:38:51.769 in those DM's coming in. I literally I'm like, if anybody has shows 560 00:38:51.849 --> 00:38:54.210 that they want to have advertisers on, like genuinely reach out to me. 561 00:38:54.250 --> 00:38:58.440 You can also reach out. We have an alias at right side up for 562 00:38:58.559 --> 00:39:01.800 podcast at right side up docom, and that's an alias that we keep open 563 00:39:01.960 --> 00:39:07.639 for publishers and show producers and anybody to reach out to us for sponsorship. 564 00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:09.989 We try to be really open. So that that's one other thing that I 565 00:39:10.030 --> 00:39:15.670 would say. You know, it's a really early medium, it's a very 566 00:39:15.710 --> 00:39:19.429 fragile ecosystem, and so if we all partner together to try and make these 567 00:39:19.510 --> 00:39:23.860 ads wonderful, that's where you find like some of the special integrations that you've 568 00:39:23.900 --> 00:39:28.139 seen that are the most effective, that stick with you. It's the kind 569 00:39:28.179 --> 00:39:30.699 of like openness to the community that really fosters that. So I hope we 570 00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:35.219 don't lose that with the application of technology. Christina, I love that that 571 00:39:35.500 --> 00:39:38.449 parting thought there today. Thank you so much for sharing your experience in and 572 00:39:38.650 --> 00:39:44.010 tips for both podcasters and advertisers today. I'm going to let you get to 573 00:39:44.130 --> 00:39:49.130 it. Hopefully your dog mellows out a little bit today and you have a 574 00:39:49.170 --> 00:39:51.449 great rest of your day. Thank you so much for joining us on the 575 00:39:51.489 --> 00:39:58.239 show. Thank you put your proach for me. PUTTOOS are in. Are 576 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:01.000 you on Linkedin? That's a stupid question. Of course you're on Linkedin. 577 00:40:01.320 --> 00:40:06.239 Here's so we fish. We've gone all in on the platform. Multiple people 578 00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:08.909 from our team are creating content there. Sometimes it's a funny gift for me, 579 00:40:09.510 --> 00:40:14.110 other times it's a micro video or a slide deck and sometimes it's just 580 00:40:14.150 --> 00:40:17.349 a regular old status update. That shares their unique point of view on BB 581 00:40:17.550 --> 00:40:23.139 marketing leadership or their job function. We're posting this content through their personal profile, 582 00:40:23.579 --> 00:40:28.380 not our company page, and it would warm my heart and soul if 583 00:40:28.420 --> 00:40:31.699 you connected with each of our evangelists. will be adding more down the road, 584 00:40:31.860 --> 00:40:36.969 but for now you should connect with bill read, our COO, Kelsey 585 00:40:37.050 --> 00:40:40.289 Montgomery, our creative director, Dan Sanchez, our director of audience growth, 586 00:40:40.730 --> 00:40:45.610 Logan Lyles, are Director of partnerships, and me, James Carberry. We 587 00:40:45.690 --> 00:40:49.010 are having a whole lot of fun on Linkedin pretty much every single day, 588 00:40:49.369 --> 00:40:50.679 and we'd love for you to be a part of it.