Transcript
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Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm looking lyles with sweet fish media.
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I'm joined today by Katie Mitchell.
She is an experienced beat me marketing
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leader. She was formerly the marketing
director and head of de Mansion over at
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ever five. She's a new linkedin
friend of mine. I've been seeing her
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all over my feed. Katie,
welcome to the show. How you doing
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today? You good. How are
you doing? I am doing fantastic.
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Katie. Are you team coke or
team Pepsi? That is something that we've
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got to know about most of our
guests here on baby growth. I am
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team coffee. Team Coffee, yes, all right, as long as you're
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getting your caffeine somehow. I imagine
with you know as much as I see
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you all over linkedin. There's got
to be some caffeine driving that and driving
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some some inspiration. And you know, as a fellow parents, I know
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how important caffeine is to our daytoday, especially this year. Right. Yeah,
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my husband doesn't bring coffee and I
constantly ask him. I don't understand
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how you're even living on this planet, but yeah, he is a big
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long for me. I am with
you right there, Katie. Well,
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Katy, we're going to be talking
about you. You kicked off a really
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interesting conversation on linkedin maybe a week
or so ago about not sending people to
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your blog, but sending your blog
to people, and it really comes from
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this idea that you're very passionate about, that is, trying new things as
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a marketing leader and not just kind
of throwing all sorts of Spaghetti against the
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wall, but being on the lookout
for trends and how we can adapt the
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way that we've always done things.
Can you talk a little bit about how
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that has become such a crux of
your approach in bb marketing and then we'll
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kind of break down this email conversation, because I think it's a good one
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to dig into tactically. Yeah,
I'm I'm on marketing and user experience nerds.
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I think part of the reason I
love marketing is because it sort of
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breaks down human existence. Since your
experience, and so thinking about why we
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do things that we do right,
and so you can sort of think it
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bit in two ways. There's the
psychological component, right, so if a
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message resonates with you, you might
do something because it's bakes to you or
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it hits on an emotional level.
And because of that you decide to take
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action, right. But then there's
the user experience side, right, which
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is very important when it comes to
digital marketing as well, which is how
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easy you make it for people to
do things. And because technology is changing
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so quickly, there's areas get crowded, right, and then people stop doing
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things, maybe not because of the
content but because something comes along with a
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better user experience. And so user
experience is really embedded in a lot of
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marketing and I don't think enough marketers
pay attention to how important that is.
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And so I think when you think
about new trends on the horizon and think
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about trying different stuff, a lot
of times you're not necessarily changing the execution
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and from a content perspective, right, you're not really changing the message.
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You're just tinkering with the technology or
how how the delivery channels have changed.
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And and I think it's really important
for marketers to always have an eye out
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for what's on the horizon, what's
coming next in that space, right,
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because you don't even realize it.
It's sort of like watching your parents,
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like watching your kids grow up.
So you know you all of a sudden
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turn around and then your kids are
five right or ten and you're like,
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how did it just happen? Wasn't
I there the whole yes, I've been
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there. Yeah, yeah, you
don't feel your evolution right, but eventually,
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and it's happening faster and faster,
that the beginning of two thousand and
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sixteen or seventeen, you're doing things
one way and then in two thousand and
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twenty you're doing things another way,
and so it's important that marketers can sort
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of see the future and try new
things. And I think one of the
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reasons that marketers are sometimes afraid to
trying things is because they're they're stuck in
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the way that they're doing things today
and maybe their company has had success with
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them in the past, right,
or whatever it is, but they don't
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feel they don't feel as strong of
a desire to go investigate the future.
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And so that's, for me,
a big era of marketing. I think
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is really fun right, is to
sort of look on the horizon see what's
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coming and to dabble in it and
to see if it's a good user experience
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for you right, because if it's
a good user for you, it's probably
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going to be a good user experience
for your customer, and not to say
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that every good user experience is going
to be the right thing to do for
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marketing, because you also to think
about your company goals and i's a lot
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of things that go into that.
But a lot of times humans sort of
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rush to the thing that is really
easy and really enjoyable and then they start
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doing it right. Agreed to go. I feel that it's like instagram stories
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right is like someone that I come
back to a lot. It's like,
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I never thought I was going to
use instagram stories and then it came out
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with that and I slowly, slowly
started changing my behavior and now I use
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it right. And probably maybe tick
tock is another really good example. And
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so for companies to start feeling that
with at the same time with consumer feels
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it and then to be able to
understand, like how do they inject themselves
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into that? Absolutely I think there
are several important points out of what you
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just said. They're Katie, and
I think one is that as marketers we
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have to always be part psychologist and
part sociologist, thinking about how are these
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things going to resonate with an individual? What are kind of the trends in
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the way that people consume content,
they interact with this technology, the way
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that they they open emails or the
way that they click through an instagram story.
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How does that change? You know, I've seen things like in the
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weather channel APP or in the Netflix
APP where you can see the user experience
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being affected by the phenomenon of instagram
stories becoming such a normal part of Daytoday,
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life where you know it's the same
sort of thing. You you hold
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to pause, you tap through to
go to the next thing. So I
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think that's really important. I think
kind of underlying all of this is there
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are some marketers who kind of love
the new thing and some who tend to
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like the try it and true,
and I think maybe that's a personality thing,
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that's an experience thing, but I
think wherever you are on that spectrum
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there's always the is marketing really relevant? Is Marketing really driving demand? Or
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they kind of the arts and Crafts
Department? And if you work for a
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company that kind of has that bent, it can be very easy to say,
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well, you know kind of the
the Linkedin adds in the ebook campaign
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and the SDR follow up. It's
tried and true. I really think that
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there's maybe a better way, but
that's the way we've always done it and
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if I kind of go with the
company line, then it's going to be
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safer. I'm not going to put
my neck out there right and I think
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the marketers that are looking at what's
happening and what is changing. You know,
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I was just hearing Guy Tano Dinardi
and Chris Walker Jam on this on
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demand Jin live and you know,
just pointing out the fact that, man,
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you could scroll linked in and find
everybody running the same linkedin add playbook
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and you can zig when everyone else
is zagging, but it takes a little
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bit of courage to do and it
takes a little bit of getting over that
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risk aversion. So let's go.
Let's go to this one example, Katie.
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What prompted you to think about this
idea and what did you mean by
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sending your blog to people versus sending
people to your blog? And then I'd
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love to break down some examples and
then talk about how this kind of relates
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to that higher level theme that you
open en up with. Yeah, for
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sure. So I think I grew
up as an email marketer. I started
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my career sort of building out database
programs, sending email marketing building content strategy
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for companies. And in two thousand
and thirteen, when I really started with
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that a little bit earlier, you
know, it was the playbook that you
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were talking about right where, you
know, we would write a blog,
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published a blog, send it out
the email, direct people back to our
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site. Hopefully when they went came
back to our site, they would do
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x by anything do. Would remark
at them with display out right, and
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so like that's the ecosystem that exists. Right. But emails crowded now and
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the more and more I have surveyed
people on my linkedin profile feel stal in
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some marketers. So obviously it's a
tiny subset. But like thirty five percent
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of people said they had an empty
inbox. Right, they do in book
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zero. I would assume that those
people don't have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds
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of company emails coming into their Inbox, because then they wouldn't be able to
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manage to inbok zero or and so
that tells us that people aren't they just
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want more simplicity in their life and
they had they desire sort of that Marie
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condo experience, right, something into
that. Yeah, and they're just more
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impatient, right, like they don't
want to go and take two clicks to
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your website. They would if it's
great content. I think people would rather.
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And again this is just my musings
right now. I don't have tons
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of market research to back it up, but that if it's great content,
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tent right. Why not have a
deliver Chari in box? And I'm starting
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to see that with, you know, Steff goed in and with and handling
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and other marketers and really interesting thought
leaders in the space doing it. And
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I'm starting to be on more list
serves that are doing it. And those
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are the emails that I'm not subscribed
on subscribing to because their emails are infrequent
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enough that when they come I look
forward to them. I want to read
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the whole thing. Then I delete
it. I don't have to then go
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to their site and get a pop
up and, you know, then get
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their marks whatever. The whole ecosystem
like. Sick of the ecosystem, right.
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And so just thinking about how can
you know you do that? And
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I think as marketers we often want
to eliminate clix and it's important for us
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as a company, but we don't
necessarily want to eliminate Clix when it's good
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for the buyer. So this is
a great example of the ladder where I
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think it optimizes the user experience.
It gets people to read your content more
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and probably will get you to achieve
your goal. It's not as measurable,
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right, but my my thesis around
this is that if someone is reading your
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continent it's really interested, then they're
going to come to your site, right,
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and so if you force them into
your site prematurely, they're probably going
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to bounce anyway. So why have
the bounce? Why? I just go
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to their eating. And why?
Why increase the UNSUBSCRIBE right, like,
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why do all of those things if
you can just deliver content that they would
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like and sort of reown the inbox, because that probably is going to long
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term d decrease your unsubscribed where it's
going to build a help your list,
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it's going to engage people. So
those are the kinds of conversations I'm having
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with myself, of my clients,
with other companies, I talked to in
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colleagues and I think that this is
sort of like the way marketing is headed.
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But you have to be able to
take your head and lift it up
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and sort of see see the forest
for the trees in order to like really
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be able to seek advantage of it. Yeah, absolutely. It reminds me
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of a previous episode our CEO,
James, did with Chris Walker over at
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refine lamps, talking about the difference
between lead generation and demand generation, and
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a lot of marketers I talked to
say Legion and demandain very interchangeably. But
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breaking it down between am I kind
of going where? I think we've gone
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way too far with inbound marketing,
which it's you know, the thesis originally
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with with content within bound marketing was
deliver enough value to draw people in.
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We've now created that, you know, to go with the fishing analogy,
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we put the hook out there and
it's like, oh, we got your
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email and you got a pulse,
so that equals a lead. Now I'm
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just going to I'm going to really
in, I'm going to jerk the Rod,
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I'm going to I'm going to turn
the real really, really, really
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hard and we've kind of given up
on the idea that if we just deliver
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enough value then there will actually be
demand rather than a lead. But we've
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gotten so caught up in quantifying and
focused on that lead metric that it becomes
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very hard to kind of UN learn
that behavior, but I think this is
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a good example of that. Yeah, but even in taking it like a
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step back, great like. So
let's just play out the scenario. So
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let's just say you did the email
of the blogs the old way, but
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by the time they get to that
form they weren't really the right person to
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be a lead anyway, right.
They would they wanted content they were in
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to read like a blog article.
So getting them back to your site,
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they're not going to convert, or
if they do, they're not going to
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be the potentially they're not going to
be very buying intent. Now, if
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you had a soft CTA within your
blog and they follow that link right then
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maybe they would be. And you
can still have that within your email,
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which is cool. So to think
about is sort of like what is the
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right time to funnel someone to the
site and to ask them to fill out
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that form. I think is important
because if you also think about it right,
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there's so many different ways that you
can then use that same email address.
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Google has, you know, Google
customer match, so you can take
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your Customer List and you can upload
into Google and they can you can target
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your display out or so you don't
need someone funneling back there for remarketing.
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You don't need them funneling that back
there for other reasons, because technology sort
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of takes care of that for you. So it's just a matter of really
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aligning with what the buyer is looking
for at that period of time, making
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it as easy it as possible for
them to consume the information and then putting
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the right CTA or the right follow
on CTA to get them back if they're
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ready. And so that's sort of
how I think about it. That's really
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good, Kittie, because I think
that that speaks to kind of the altruistic
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motive that I was talking about,
that if you believe in your content and
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you believe in delivering value, then
you are going to create demand, even
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if that doesn't turn into a lead
right away. But also just tactically,
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it makes sense right to not try
and force people too far down the funnel
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when they're not ready. We we
think, you know, I heard Guy
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Tona say this the other day about
a past experience where his CEO was saying
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how come the blogs not converting enough
leads, and he was like, when
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was the last time you read a
blog article and then bought something and he
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was like well, I can't remember
a time right. And so it goes
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back to what you were talking about
at the beginning, understanding the user experience
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in the user behavior. But then, I like what you said, they're
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of coupling it with just the text
act and the reality that you don't necessarily
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now need to send someone to your
blog in order to retarget them with the
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Google Audience Building that you were talking
about, because I imagine then, let's
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play out this scenario, if you
go from sending your newsletter or whatever you
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call it, because I think newsletter
is also an outdated term that you know,
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we just started doing it, because
we've been doing it, and you're
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sending people to links to articles to
get them back, but you go now
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to sending them the longer form content
just natively in the email and then using
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those email addresses of your highest engaged
folks to then to then retarget them or
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things like that. What other things? If people are pivoting this way,
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what do you think are some ways
that they could do this effectively? Because
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I imagine some people maybe ask some
questions on your post like well, I
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can't use kind of rich media.
I can't see, you know, their
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time on page. What are your
some of your thoughts on the tactics of
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this? To take a little further, the most were in tactics. You
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just really need great content, and
that's what most people don't have, right,
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and so I think that's why you
feel like you can't send it to
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someone's inbox or like you know what
is really if you if you send something
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to someone's Inbox and they opened it, what's going to make them read that?
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And so if you start asking yourself
those questions and you start putting yourself
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I like to call like putting your
customer glasses on. I even like have
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those glasses. Susan come a custom
lass. If that was a customer,
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I fout a customer what I'm right. And so I think you know,
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especially now when I'm, you know, consulting and I'm not sort of in
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a specific company, right, it's
easier to do. It's really hard to
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do when you're like in the trenches
of a company every day. But most
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people, they looked at the emails
that they were sending, would not respond
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to those emails, right. And
so ask yourself honestly, honestly, would
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you respond? Would you read what
would make you click right. And so
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I think if you start having those
really hard conversations, and like, this
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is also something I come back to, just like hard conversations. You have
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to have really hard conversations because sometimes
it will expose issues that then you know,
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you actually solve and you can make
headway with versus just doing the same
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thing day to day. And so
just sit down with your team, like
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you know, ask, you know, sit down in a meeting with ten
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people. Would you reply that?
Would you reply email right, like,
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and I think it's heart email right
now is really hard from a technical perspective
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because there's so much the data that
you get back in like a Marquetto or
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something. There's a lot of fake
clicks right. So it's very difficult to
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tell sometimes what's performing and what's not, because bots. I mean, I've
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talked to hundreds, like fifty marketers, and like everyone's experiencing the same thing.
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So and then we just really sometimes
you just like give up because you're
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like, I don't even know what's
real anymore. But you don't need that
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necessarily. Everyone's human. You just
need to sit down and you to talk
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to your colleagues and you need to
talk to your customers and, you know,
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ask them, and so I think
the key is just what is the
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good enough content and then you know, subscribe and like look and see what's
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going on, what companies are doing
at well, what makes you pay attention,
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what doesn't make you pay attention,
and and you can start to get
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at that pretty quickly. Yeah,
what do you think about these ideas,
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Katie? If you were, you
know, taking the blog content and instead
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of sending the newsletter and you've got
three links to, you know, potentially
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good articles that you want to redirect
people to, you take one blog article
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and you expand that so people just
scroll through the inbox and read it.
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Do you think that there's maybe a
case for asking them to reply if they
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have a question, or putting some
soft CTA's into just like you would in
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the blog content, to you know, find a resource on on something else?
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Do you think some of those things, if you go down this road,
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do you think some of those things
could be could be effective? And
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have you tested anything along those lines? Yeah, no, I mean I'm
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just starting to, but I think, yes, I think that they're all
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both those things that you said.
One like asking for apply I've seen that
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done really effectively and I also I'm
not using that as much email right now,
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which is the only reason I can't. I can't say that, but
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these are things I'm thinking about.
But the other thing is, yeah,
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like the Sawcta, like I just
heard an interview with Gom CD and he
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was talking about their strategy for layering
content right and having that initial article being
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very valuable. And then, I
mean this is just sort of like marketing
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one on right. Then once if
you get someone in that like, what's
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that's why I mean the beginning of
our conversation around like the CTA. Right,
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it might not be a Ceta to
go to your site and to buy,
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but it might be a Ceta to
the next step or to read it
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go deeper into a content, a
longer form pomp content piece or to share
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with a friend, right. And
so how do you even bed those consistently
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so they're always there and they always
provide a next step, because you shouldn't
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have someone read and then just go
right. There should be something else from
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to do when they get to the
end. So, whether or not that's
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through apply or to go deepers is
definitely the way to go. Absolutely I
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love. I had Matt Hines from
Hinds Marketing on the show a while back
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and we were talking about a follow
up sequence that he does with folks who
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engage with his content on Linkedin and
and the thing that I took from that
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conversation that has just been in my
head for months now is that someone should
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never hit a dead end with your
content. If they want to go deeper,
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you should always be providing them and
a new and it shouldn't always be
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you know, it's why Gary V's
Book Was Jab Jab, Jab Right Hook,
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not jab right hook. I think
we kind of take that and we're
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like, Oh, I threw a
jab, I delivered a little value.
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It's time for that right hook.
We need to slow play it just a
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little bit. You know. I
think another thing that you could do,
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if you decide on this strategy,
to send longer form text via email and
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send them that blog content, like, let's say that they do want to
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switch over to a browser for whatever
reason, just giving them like hey,
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want to want to read this in
a browser. That could be, you
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know, the SAFTCTA, one third
and two thirds through the blog post that's
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in your inbox. I mean,
like you said, just because we've done
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it one way doesn't mean we need
to keep doing it that way. Yeah,
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there's nothing else in a video on
the site that you want to show
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them. Go to the bit go
to the website and watch the full video,
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right, because you can't necessarily easily. That's a really good point.
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So I saw someone brought that up
and your linkedin post and they were like
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what about, you know, rich
media, that sort of stuff. I
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mean, you could even have some
fun with that, right, like,
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Hey, we wanted to deliver as
much value in the inbox. I can't
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put a video in here. It
would have been too hard. Click here
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and you can actually see the video. Sorry about that, right, like,
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have some fun with it. Think
about, as you said, what
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is the user experience? What are
they going through? What are they thinking?
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As opposed to this is what we
do. We send emails, we'd
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send them here, we retarget them, we try to lead capture. Then
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they go to an str right and
let's let's slow down and think about it.
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Are there's some other areas, Katie, that you have had in your
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mind where the same sort of thing
being applies that you've kind of got your
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eyes on, where, Hey,
there's a trend, someone's kind of taking
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the old way of doing it and
shifting a little bit that you think other
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marketers should be thinking about? Yeah, so's the one area that I'm obsessing
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about right now to an unhealthy degree
is community marketing. I think that,
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especially facebook groups are, I described
it, one of my post ones is
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saying they combined the power of search
and the power of word of mouths together,
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and so historically you haven't been able
to if you have a question or
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you want to ask you know,
you Wush your very you know Amazon reviews,
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right, like you want to know
something about something, either related to
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work or buying something or vendor or
anything, and you haven't really been able
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to just quickly, be able to
go to hundreds or thousand people and just
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quickly ask a question or like crowds, crowd source, right. And so
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that's what facebook groups do and right
first experience the value of them, I
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really highly recommend joining a few,
either related to some personal interests or some
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professional interests. I got started on
facebook groups about two thousand and seventeen because
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the mom ecosystem of MOM's talking about
their kids is actually very alive and well
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on facebook. Groups. And so
there's hundreds and hundred watts to facebook groups.
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And so you know Dave Gearhard just
started his relate to marketing, and
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so I think, whether or not
you know, having a group potentially,
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as you can eat, they can
do in a few different ways where you
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can have your own group as a
company, and that can do a lot
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of interesting things. Right, you
can facilitate cross sort of pollination between your
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own customers and prospects. So they're
not just learning from you, they're learning
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from each other, and so there's
huge value and bringing people together and giving
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them a form to learn from each
other. And actually I think that the
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value of that is even greater than
some of the content that you can provide
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on your own. And that value
comes back to you as the brand,
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because you are the connector. Right, you have facilitated those connections, and
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so just by by being the connector, yes, and so if you can
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do that, it's completely free to
set up a facebook group. Right,
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you need to moderate it, you
need to make sure that no one's taking
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advantage or selling or you're doing anything
crazy in there. But assuming you can
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do all those things and you can
also feed some relevant content to that,
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group. They're going to stay.
Not For two reasons. Why they're going
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to stay because people in that group
are providing the value and that people also
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help each other. I mean,
I love someone posted one of my groups
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recently the question I wan't answer you
because I like helping peop well, and
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so that's just sort of human nature. We'd like to help people and makes
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us feel good. So you know, you get that in a facebook group.
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And so they'll stay there because for
three reasons, right. They like
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getting help from others, they like
giving help to others and they are getting
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information from you as a company that's
helping them be successful. And so I
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just think that this is very,
very undervalued by companies. And this is
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a good example. In my last
company, if I wasn't so like deeply,
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deeply covered by all of the things
that are pushed on me as a
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market everyday way of the sales team, from, you know, things that
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have worked in the past, from
just the machine that's been running, I
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would have just like come up for
air and been like we need to have
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a facebook group, because we have, you know, we work with sixteen
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hundred colleges and universities and getting all
those people together in a group and what
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could we do? And I actually
didn't even do it right, and it
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wasn't until I left and I could
sort of and I've been experiencing value groups
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for a couple of years. Right. And so no, I cannot tell
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people on this podcast that it would
have knocked it out of the Parker,
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I don't know, but I'm pretty
confident that that strategy over time would have
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worked. And I know because I'm
seeing it happen. Might be deep you're
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hurts group. All that's paid,
which is enough coome or another conversation for
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another day. I'm seeing it happen. elementors like another web you know,
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company that helps you create websites for
your word. Present, they have sixtyzero
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people in their community. Right.
Think about what that does for like a
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cup of a customer success standpoint.
People are getting help from other people there,
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maybe taking taking some stress off of
their customers success to their support teams.
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So it's not just again, it's
also comes down to like brands being
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a key component into each part of
the company. Right. It's like there's
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so much overlaps. You also have
to break down some of the barriers to
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help show that. Yeah, absolutely
I mean I can't hop on linkedin these
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days without seeing someone else talking about
revenue collective and that that Organization for sales
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and marketing leaders has just exploded over
the last year. And one of the
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things I keep hearing from people as
like, yeah, the in person and
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events were good when when they were
happening, but a lot of people are
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saying the private slack community that you
are part of when you're a part of
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revenue collective is where a lot of
the magic happens, where people are are
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sharing things, they're having conversations that
they might not be having on Linkedin.
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There they're sharing what's working, what
they're struggling with, all that sort of
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stuff and very similar. So,
you know, maybe it's a private slack
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community or a facebook group, but
I think this idea of of private communities
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where you bring employees, prospects,
customers together and you're able to, like
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you said, you might decrease the
load on your customer success or Customer Support
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Team because customers are answering each other's
questions and all those sorts of things.
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So it doesn't just benefit marketing and
I think especially right now in the time
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of social distancing and self isolation and
quarantine and all those sorts of things.
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People are starved for community and so
I think you're onto something there. It'll
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probably look different for every brand and
and for the folks who are able to
404
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come up for air and and try
that strategy of community marketing in some former
405
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fashion, but it's it's something we've
thought about. We started a private slack
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channel for our cohosts here on BB
growth and some of our past guests and
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some of our customers. It does
take some work. It takes someone dedicated
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00:26:07.859 --> 00:26:12.819
to facilitating that community to start in
conversations and all that sort of stuff.
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But just like anything else, as
I love what Chris Walker said the other
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day, it's just like you have
to do the hard work, but you've
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got to decide where you're willing to
put in that hard work and then and
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then do it right. So,
Katy, this has been a great conversation.
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I really appreciate you breaking down this
tactic we were talking about in sending
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your blog content straight to people's inbox. Excited to hear from folks if they
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try this out. Hit Katie your
eye up on Linkedin. If this is
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something that you listening to this,
if you experiment with or you have any
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00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:45.680
thoughts on that, Kittie? On
that note, what's the best way for
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people to stay connected with you if
this is the first time you're coming across
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their path or they want to ask
you some follow up questions or just stay
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plugged into some of your content?
Just linkedin. That's it, easy enough,
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easy enough. Look her up,
Katie Mitchell's her link to her linked
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in profile will be in the show
notes as always. Everybody, Katie,
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thank you so much for making time
for joining me on the show today.
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This has been a fantastic conversation.
Thanks, it's awesome. Thanks it's sweetfish.
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We're on a mission to create the
most helpful content on the Internet for
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00:27:18.329 --> 00:27:22.009
every job, function and industry on
the planet. For the BB marketing industry,
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00:27:22.170 --> 00:27:26.410
this show is how we're executing on
that mission. If you know a
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00:27:26.490 --> 00:27:30.319
marketing leader that would be an awesome
guest for this podcast. Shoot me a
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00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.799
text message. Don't call me because
I don't answer unknown numbers, but text
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00:27:33.880 --> 00:27:37.640
me at four hundred seven for and
I know three and threty two eight.
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00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:40.759
Just shoot me their name, maybe
a link to their linked in profile,
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00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:42.920
and I'd love to check them out
to see if we can get them on
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the show. Thanks a lot