1356: How to Convince SME's to be Thought Leadership Contributors w/ Matthijs Van den Broek

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.639 --> 00:00:08.949 Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media. 2 00:00:09.150 --> 00:00:13.429 Today I'm joined by Matthew Van Denbrook. He's the head of thought leadership 3 00:00:13.589 --> 00:00:16.429 over at Wah. Matthew, welcome to the show. How you doing today? 4 00:00:16.750 --> 00:00:20.309 I'm great. Thanks for having me. Absolutely Matthew. I love to 5 00:00:20.390 --> 00:00:24.420 ask this question, especially folks across the world and across time zones from me. 6 00:00:24.739 --> 00:00:28.140 Matthew, are you team coke or team Pepsi? Where do you land 7 00:00:28.179 --> 00:00:31.620 on the great debate? Wow, definitely cold. I love it, man. 8 00:00:32.219 --> 00:00:35.890 That's kind of a prerequisite for for working at sweet fish if you're a 9 00:00:35.969 --> 00:00:41.130 team Pepsi are founder and CEO is just so anti Pepsi that it becomes kind 10 00:00:41.170 --> 00:00:44.130 of a sticking point. I Kid, but it's always a question that we 11 00:00:44.250 --> 00:00:48.250 ask during onboarding and I like to ask our guests there to see kind of 12 00:00:48.289 --> 00:00:52.000 where they land. I will never order Pepsi when there's Co cafeatable. I 13 00:00:52.039 --> 00:00:56.799 don't know why. I even think that it's the real coke has more flavor 14 00:00:57.000 --> 00:01:00.119 in a way, but I don't. I'm not sure it's been a while 15 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:04.189 since I've drank above whole or a gloss pepsie right right. That's the way 16 00:01:04.230 --> 00:01:07.790 it goes. Well, man, as we as we mentioned in the open, 17 00:01:08.030 --> 00:01:12.510 you are head of thought leadership over at walk and we're going to be 18 00:01:12.590 --> 00:01:18.189 talking about really how to operationalize your thought leadershift efforts. You know what, 19 00:01:18.510 --> 00:01:22.099 what challenges have you guys been seeing since you've kind of made a shift in 20 00:01:22.140 --> 00:01:23.980 the way that you approach thought leadership? How do you get buy in? 21 00:01:25.260 --> 00:01:29.500 How do you get time with the subject matter experts internally that it takes to 22 00:01:29.659 --> 00:01:33.530 really establish thought leadership? But before we do that, that's you. I 23 00:01:33.569 --> 00:01:37.569 would love to hear your thoughts, not only on why coke dominates Pepsi in 24 00:01:37.769 --> 00:01:42.609 the flavor game, but why is thought leadership so important these days? Why 25 00:01:42.769 --> 00:01:47.129 has it become such a buzz word and why are we making this shift towards 26 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:51.680 thought leadership and away from kind of the tried and true content marketing that, 27 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:53.359 you know, teams have been doing for the last ten years or so? 28 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:59.920 Oh well, I think we're in the in the Bob Sector and we're into 29 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:04.909 a customer experience bench marking and what I think is if you're working with a 30 00:02:05.310 --> 00:02:12.669 really high high, high knowledge intensive product, then fought leadership is the way 31 00:02:12.750 --> 00:02:15.780 to go. Because you have a lot of stuff to explain to people before 32 00:02:15.780 --> 00:02:20.300 they even understand what you're trying to sell them, to be a bit unpolite 33 00:02:20.300 --> 00:02:23.900 in a way. So I would say that thought leadership is the way to 34 00:02:23.979 --> 00:02:29.580 get into the hearts and minds of your of your customers and what work. 35 00:02:29.699 --> 00:02:34.610 What we're trying to do is do it via our research. So we publish 36 00:02:34.650 --> 00:02:37.770 a lot of a lot of data, we publish a lot of stories, 37 00:02:37.810 --> 00:02:43.129 a lot of articles, a lot of rankings, and that is also content 38 00:02:43.250 --> 00:02:49.400 marketing, is a part of our fault leadership strategy. So I would say 39 00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:52.800 in be to be and with with a lot of when you got a lot 40 00:02:52.840 --> 00:02:57.360 of stuff to explain in a way or too, and and also a lot 41 00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:00.870 of stuff to show, then I would say that content marketing and thought leadership 42 00:03:01.030 --> 00:03:05.229 are is the way to go for your for your marketing strategy. Yeah, 43 00:03:05.830 --> 00:03:09.789 I think it's interesting matter you that you mentioned content marketing rolling up into thought 44 00:03:09.870 --> 00:03:14.419 leadership, not the other way around, and that's kind of one of those 45 00:03:14.580 --> 00:03:19.060 that I've seen hubs. Body even post stuff on inbound marketing content marketing. 46 00:03:19.139 --> 00:03:21.979 Are they the same? Is One part of the other? Where is it 47 00:03:22.060 --> 00:03:25.340 the other way around? What do you see? What are the other components 48 00:03:25.500 --> 00:03:29.930 if you look at it the way you do, where content marketing is a 49 00:03:30.210 --> 00:03:34.650 part of thought leadership but not the whole thing. They're not just synonymous. 50 00:03:35.009 --> 00:03:38.969 What are the other core parts of thought leadership in your opinion, I would 51 00:03:38.969 --> 00:03:42.840 see? I would say that the the thought leadership is more the the mission 52 00:03:42.919 --> 00:03:46.439 and the vision you have about the the business you're in. So we're into 53 00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:52.639 customer experience benchmarking and we say that listening to your customers is the way to 54 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:57.710 go to optimize your your website or your APPs or your service environments for a 55 00:03:57.789 --> 00:04:02.389 bigger and higher conversion. So it's it's got edit. The fault leadership compartment 56 00:04:02.430 --> 00:04:08.030 has anything to do with the the mission and a vision you're in as a 57 00:04:08.110 --> 00:04:13.020 company. So I would say that that the on top of all the technical 58 00:04:13.180 --> 00:04:16.300 stuff that you can do in content marketing, so be a white paper or 59 00:04:16.339 --> 00:04:20.459 a tweet or a block post or a boot cost. On top of that 60 00:04:20.860 --> 00:04:26.930 is the the more the values and the devision and a mission of a company. 61 00:04:27.370 --> 00:04:30.209 And if you put it all together and blend it in, then it 62 00:04:30.329 --> 00:04:36.009 then it becomes your your mix and your your marketing strategy. I think that's 63 00:04:36.050 --> 00:04:40.600 really well said, Matthew. You know, they are typical content marketing, 64 00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:45.879 where we're answering the most frequently asked questions, we're helping to create awareness, 65 00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:49.920 but tying that to the bigger narrative, which is actually the name of a 66 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:54.589 new podcast from Andy Raskin, I think it's called. It is called the 67 00:04:54.670 --> 00:04:58.269 bigger narrative. That's one that if this is kind of a hot topic for 68 00:04:58.350 --> 00:05:00.790 you, I definitely recommend checking out. We don't have an affiliation to that 69 00:05:00.870 --> 00:05:04.110 show, but I've been geeking out on it and it's been fun. So 70 00:05:04.189 --> 00:05:08.740 I think that definition is pretty cool to frame the way that people are thinking 71 00:05:08.779 --> 00:05:14.740 about thought leadership now. I heard you on an episode with Bill Sherman recently 72 00:05:14.819 --> 00:05:18.019 and you were talking about some of the challenges that it that you have encountered 73 00:05:18.259 --> 00:05:25.569 in moving your organization in this direction of tactically executing on thought leadership day in 74 00:05:25.689 --> 00:05:29.370 and day out. What would you say are some of the top two three 75 00:05:29.410 --> 00:05:31.850 challenges that you've run into? And then I want to take those kind of 76 00:05:31.889 --> 00:05:35.680 one at a time and talk about how have you overcome some of those or 77 00:05:35.720 --> 00:05:40.480 how are you still trying to tackle some of those if they haven't fully been 78 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:44.279 over or come yet. So let's start with those top challenges in the wire 79 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:47.600 break them down. I would say that that the top challenge is time, 80 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:54.709 because we're in a consultancy business. Everybody is working for on a client project 81 00:05:54.870 --> 00:05:59.829 or for a client project and any you want to spend all your all the 82 00:05:59.910 --> 00:06:02.589 time and your energy you have on your client because you want to live the 83 00:06:02.629 --> 00:06:06.980 best research you can do, and I would always say a second one is 84 00:06:08.100 --> 00:06:13.500 a probably also the stuff you can what you can do. So the options 85 00:06:13.540 --> 00:06:18.089 you have, the options you have to contribute to thought leadership is a is 86 00:06:18.730 --> 00:06:23.529 a big number two, let's talk about the the time, because we could, 87 00:06:23.769 --> 00:06:28.050 we could talk tactically, talk about okay, you have subject matter experts 88 00:06:28.089 --> 00:06:31.689 and especially if they are buillable, then you know their time is very valuable. 89 00:06:31.850 --> 00:06:35.040 So we can talk about how to maximize their time, but first you 90 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:40.399 gotta sell them on investing their time. So let's talk about that first and 91 00:06:40.519 --> 00:06:44.040 then we'll talk about how do you maximize their time once they've said yes, 92 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:46.230 but you've got to get them to agree to it first, right. Yeah, 93 00:06:46.470 --> 00:06:50.550 yeah, you got to. And what I've what I've experienced in my 94 00:06:51.589 --> 00:06:56.069 in my time at. Why is that? If you create a platform for 95 00:06:56.350 --> 00:07:01.339 the for the experts, to show off their knowledge and to contribute to solving 96 00:07:01.379 --> 00:07:08.180 a problem or to show an audience how, together with a client, how 97 00:07:08.259 --> 00:07:13.019 we solved how we solve the case for that client, then they were really 98 00:07:13.740 --> 00:07:18.730 happy to contribute. So it's not direct what's in it for me, but 99 00:07:18.850 --> 00:07:27.250 it's really about showing their expertise. And then if I've were working together with 100 00:07:27.329 --> 00:07:31.120 a one of the biggest marketing platforms in the in the Netherlands, and I 101 00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:39.319 it is my role to facilitate that, our researchers can blog on those platforms. 102 00:07:39.959 --> 00:07:46.430 So when they get fifteen or k fus on on a specific block post, 103 00:07:46.350 --> 00:07:50.189 they're really there, really happy and and they show they show it on 104 00:07:50.509 --> 00:07:56.509 on the internal WHATSAPP groups and that is so that is really working well. 105 00:07:56.990 --> 00:08:00.860 And then all of a sudden there is time. But it's also got to 106 00:08:00.980 --> 00:08:05.500 do with the second one is, although you have a lot of people who 107 00:08:05.500 --> 00:08:11.379 are really they studied a lot, they're really smart people. They're smarter than 108 00:08:11.500 --> 00:08:16.009 me, but it's not their line of business, content marketing or thought leadership, 109 00:08:16.009 --> 00:08:22.730 or is not their line of business their neuro psychologist or their consumer psychologists 110 00:08:22.769 --> 00:08:26.399 and they they're not into marketing. So I have to understand that they do 111 00:08:26.600 --> 00:08:33.159 not know what they what they should know to contrime you at best. So 112 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:37.519 it's for me. It's also I have to better understand what they do know 113 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:41.629 and what they don't know and teach them more than I would. Yeah, 114 00:08:41.710 --> 00:08:45.909 then I would do so normally. Yeah, so what I hear you saying, 115 00:08:46.230 --> 00:08:48.909 Matthew, is one, show them how you're going to show off their 116 00:08:48.990 --> 00:08:52.429 expertise. So that touches on the what's in it for me. But don't 117 00:08:52.470 --> 00:08:58.539 just stop there. Maybe point to an example where another subject met are expert 118 00:08:58.740 --> 00:09:01.019 internally. You know, hey, this got, you know, five thousand 119 00:09:01.059 --> 00:09:05.460 views on this industry blog or whatever the case is. Kind of sell them 120 00:09:05.620 --> 00:09:09.980 on it a little bit and kind of show how you're going to shine the 121 00:09:09.009 --> 00:09:13.730 spotlight on them and share those wins. would be number two. And then 122 00:09:13.730 --> 00:09:18.570 number three, make it easy for them. So I'd imagine you might have 123 00:09:18.769 --> 00:09:24.360 some internal internal experts that you want to establish as thought leaders that are more 124 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:30.039 apt to writing or more apt to speaking, with video off or more APP 125 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:35.679 for video and with different experts. The path of least resistance might look a 126 00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:41.750 little bit different based on their specific skill set. And am I wrong there, 127 00:09:41.789 --> 00:09:45.909 or is that they are totally if your internal experts now you're totally right 128 00:09:45.950 --> 00:09:48.990 there with because we have the biggest department at our office right now is the 129 00:09:50.230 --> 00:09:54.740 the research department, where there where the knowledge about the product of the knowledge 130 00:09:54.779 --> 00:09:58.340 about the tools and the knowledge about the data. To all eyes at that 131 00:09:58.460 --> 00:10:05.419 the department in there and those people have all are not the same. They're 132 00:10:05.460 --> 00:10:09.690 not researchers, they're all individuals and they all are more introvert or they're more 133 00:10:09.850 --> 00:10:15.970 extrovert. So what I've also noticed is some people are really skilled riders and 134 00:10:16.049 --> 00:10:20.289 they they ride really, really fast and they can produce in really short amounts 135 00:10:20.289 --> 00:10:24.799 of time. They produced the best block post they've ever they've ever could have 136 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:28.320 imagined, but the latest ten percent. So getting it done and getting it 137 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:35.230 published. That's where I come in because I I am a journalist by by 138 00:10:35.309 --> 00:10:41.549 study and I can help them to to get the get the final ten percent. 139 00:10:41.149 --> 00:10:45.909 And we also I've also experienced that some people are really, really good 140 00:10:46.149 --> 00:10:54.059 in creating video tutorials. So showing the the specks of of our digital experience 141 00:10:54.179 --> 00:11:01.139 the board and not when they're in insight. So not not in a facetoface, 142 00:11:01.460 --> 00:11:05.049 a combination, but just with audio. There he's really, really good. 143 00:11:05.049 --> 00:11:09.129 Yeah, it's young nick is really really good in that and I have 144 00:11:09.330 --> 00:11:15.169 to say to him, well, this is what you do, really good, 145 00:11:15.450 --> 00:11:18.559 and give me more of this. So I have to facilitate. I 146 00:11:18.600 --> 00:11:24.000 also have to see what the person and it's the human capital we talked about 147 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:30.840 in our in our company. I have to see person what their most comfortable 148 00:11:31.000 --> 00:11:35.549 in in contributing to our fought leadership and our branding and in our external communications. 149 00:11:37.110 --> 00:11:41.750 So other people are really really good on stage. Yeah, their performers. 150 00:11:41.830 --> 00:11:46.460 They love to have the audience. Well, in the COVID nineteen it's, 151 00:11:46.740 --> 00:11:52.659 of course, a bit more complicated, but we saw people giving a 152 00:11:52.700 --> 00:11:58.379 keynotes that were really high level and other people are introverts and they don't they 153 00:11:58.460 --> 00:12:03.409 they have to cry when they go on stage. So it's really depends and 154 00:12:03.610 --> 00:12:07.730 and it's so it's the unlocking of the of the all the expertise and all 155 00:12:07.769 --> 00:12:11.970 the knowledge we have, to a certain amount, of course, and I 156 00:12:11.090 --> 00:12:16.799 think that is really what were the face were in right now, and I 157 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:22.480 like, I love the the face, because everybody is doing what what he 158 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:26.600 or she does best, and then probably you get the highest energy and also 159 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:33.070 get the really biggest and the best results. But it takes take, take 160 00:12:33.190 --> 00:12:39.629 some time to get there and also some mistakes and some frustration. It all 161 00:12:39.789 --> 00:12:41.990 hug you chuckle a little bit there. Do you have any fun stories on 162 00:12:43.590 --> 00:12:48.259 mistakes figuring out how how to operationalize this where you're like Ah, man, 163 00:12:48.299 --> 00:12:52.379 if I would have approached this internal expert this way or if I would have 164 00:12:52.460 --> 00:12:56.899 tied them up this way, maybe I would have avoided a mistake. There 165 00:12:56.019 --> 00:13:01.889 anything interesting along the way that you've encountered their matthew? Yeah, well, 166 00:13:01.929 --> 00:13:07.049 well, yeah, I've got a lot trying to think. What can you 167 00:13:07.169 --> 00:13:09.169 share here on the podcast? Yeah, I'm trying to think that really fast. 168 00:13:09.929 --> 00:13:18.039 No, well, I once I we did an episode of podcasts and 169 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:22.840 then we had our head of industry of automotive and he said, yeah, 170 00:13:22.840 --> 00:13:26.120 I've never did a podcast before, but I think I'll I can manage. 171 00:13:26.429 --> 00:13:30.789 Well, we'll just little, just dive in and we'll do it and it 172 00:13:31.110 --> 00:13:37.110 will be okay. And he also didn't had any journalistic experience in journalism. 173 00:13:37.909 --> 00:13:41.539 But I thought, yeah, it was really convincing and I was also I 174 00:13:41.700 --> 00:13:45.340 was saying, yeah, you're a you're the expert here, so you should 175 00:13:45.379 --> 00:13:50.580 do it and not me, because I'm not the expert here. But afterwards 176 00:13:50.019 --> 00:13:54.860 also the client said, yeah, well, I think it would have been 177 00:13:54.220 --> 00:13:58.330 better if if we did the podcast with you, and then I yeah, 178 00:13:58.529 --> 00:14:01.649 that is so that was like really good. Yeah, I kind of goes 179 00:14:01.730 --> 00:14:05.809 back to what you were saying. Match the the expert with their medium, 180 00:14:07.169 --> 00:14:11.279 not only with their aerio of expertise, but the medium or the channel that's 181 00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:13.480 going to make most sense for them, where they most comfortable, where they 182 00:14:13.559 --> 00:14:18.120 most experience, and maybe do some dry runs just, you know, hey, 183 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:22.159 if I'm going to get this internal expert out on podcasts, were on 184 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:24.750 our podcast as a brand, let's do a dry run, let's hop on 185 00:14:24.909 --> 00:14:28.350 zoom, let's riff a little bit and see. HMM, maybe I should 186 00:14:28.389 --> 00:14:33.070 stick to written content with them right. Yeah, I definitely, I definitely 187 00:14:33.070 --> 00:14:35.549 had to that, but because it was it was just not as, not 188 00:14:35.710 --> 00:14:39.940 as those good as as it could have been. So that's that's one of 189 00:14:39.019 --> 00:14:46.500 the but I also what we also did in the past was that the we 190 00:14:46.620 --> 00:14:54.009 had a marketing department and the marketing department was like five people and they produced 191 00:14:54.090 --> 00:14:58.570 all the external communication. So they also took a look at the preview of 192 00:14:58.649 --> 00:15:03.409 the data and and made analysis of the data, and rid rode a blog 193 00:15:03.450 --> 00:15:09.440 post about that. I also did that myself, but that delivered almost every 194 00:15:09.519 --> 00:15:16.200 time. When the research department grow that, that delivered a lot of discussion 195 00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:20.679 with people said, yeah, well, it's really a marketing, marketing talk 196 00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:24.110 you have there, and I when I interpret these research inside, I would 197 00:15:24.149 --> 00:15:28.149 not never say this or that or that and that. Well, it took 198 00:15:28.190 --> 00:15:35.059 me some years to figure out that that it should really be the the expert 199 00:15:35.659 --> 00:15:41.059 doing the analysis so that you would don't have any doubt that it's correct, 200 00:15:41.539 --> 00:15:45.980 that it's a rise of a presentation of the data. And of course you 201 00:15:46.139 --> 00:15:50.090 have the you have to have a nice visual and a good, good copy, 202 00:15:50.330 --> 00:15:54.610 and you have to consider a seo and you also have to make sure 203 00:15:54.769 --> 00:16:00.730 that also normal people can can read it. But that's more to the editorial 204 00:16:00.809 --> 00:16:04.799 finishing touch. So that took me. That took me some time to get 205 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:08.679 there. Yeah, yeah, so that's you. Before we hit record, 206 00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:14.639 you were talking a little bit about your own journey in organizational thought leadership. 207 00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:18.230 You've gotten experts involved, you've kind of pitched them on the vision. You've 208 00:16:18.309 --> 00:16:22.230 shared some wins with them. You've kind of helped them pick which channel, 209 00:16:22.590 --> 00:16:26.950 which medium is going to make sense. All of that being said, you've 210 00:16:26.110 --> 00:16:30.070 kind of headed up into the right like you guys are sticking with this. 211 00:16:30.190 --> 00:16:33.460 It's going here, but it's not a straight line. There are some ups 212 00:16:33.500 --> 00:16:37.220 and downs and and that sort of stuff, you know, like like getting 213 00:16:37.220 --> 00:16:40.620 one of your experts on a podcast and deciding maybe written for men as better 214 00:16:40.740 --> 00:16:47.210 for them. What has it that has helped you and helped your executive leadership 215 00:16:47.250 --> 00:16:51.769 team to continue investing in thought leadership? Because we've even seen internally, as 216 00:16:51.809 --> 00:16:56.970 much as we're all about thought leadership here at Sweetish, are internal evangelist program 217 00:16:56.009 --> 00:17:02.559 where we're helping create content for our five evangelists. There have been times where 218 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:06.279 some of us, the five of us that are involved there, we're really 219 00:17:06.400 --> 00:17:10.759 heavy and then sometimes where we've had to back off, and there are definitely 220 00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:15.160 these ebbs and flows. And so how have you and the experts, as 221 00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:18.390 well as your executive leadership team, that are still saying Yep at you, 222 00:17:18.509 --> 00:17:22.549 you can get time with these folks that are our highest billable rate folks? 223 00:17:22.950 --> 00:17:29.549 How have you guys stuck with it throughout those ebbs and flows to continue investing 224 00:17:29.589 --> 00:17:33.220 in thought leadership. I think. Well, that's a great question. I 225 00:17:33.420 --> 00:17:37.099 think it's when it comes down, I would say two things. Sharing the 226 00:17:37.140 --> 00:17:47.289 successes is really important on so showing off fuse clicks leads anything that if one 227 00:17:47.329 --> 00:17:52.369 of our experts as written a white paper on behavior roll consumer psychology and it's 228 00:17:52.450 --> 00:17:59.039 downloaded for three hundred times, so that is a marketing qualified lead in our 229 00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:03.839 in our world, I share that on the on the or better, I 230 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:08.960 let him share that on our internal mill in our internal WHATSAPP groups. So 231 00:18:10.119 --> 00:18:15.029 that's one. And showing off the success make people stand out facilitate them to 232 00:18:15.869 --> 00:18:22.470 also share it themselves. So that's that's one. And to what we're doing 233 00:18:22.589 --> 00:18:30.660 is almost for twelve years the same. We produce rankings and data on customer 234 00:18:30.700 --> 00:18:36.220 journeys and we benchmark the customer experience in several journeys and we've done that with 235 00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:42.049 a validated model and we do that for the benchmarking is what we do best 236 00:18:42.130 --> 00:18:48.250 and it's the laser focus thing we do. So all the publications of our 237 00:18:48.490 --> 00:18:52.170 rankings, all the white papers, all the data we produce now in our 238 00:18:52.289 --> 00:19:00.640 death spoorts. It's what we believe in and there's never any doubts that what 239 00:19:00.839 --> 00:19:06.319 we have to offer is is working for our clients. So the fought leadership 240 00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:11.190 efforts and also the marketing efforts are a bit well, I decided in English 241 00:19:11.230 --> 00:19:17.390 that it's that it's directly related to our business. So the marketing is also 242 00:19:17.589 --> 00:19:26.420 the product. So we would never let go of those really effective communications types 243 00:19:26.579 --> 00:19:30.059 and also not not give up on the on the way we work, because 244 00:19:30.059 --> 00:19:36.779 it's yeah, it's directly lines to what we believe in. So that is 245 00:19:36.819 --> 00:19:42.569 a really big advantance for me to have people work on that. Work on 246 00:19:42.650 --> 00:19:49.809 the fought leadership efforts is really directly, almost always directly linked to our day 247 00:19:49.849 --> 00:19:55.440 to day business. I'm not sure if that is that is a make that? 248 00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:59.279 Does it make sense? Yeah, absolutely. I like what you said 249 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:03.599 to so one you're talking about they're linking it to the bigger narrative. What 250 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.670 is the mission that we're on, which is goes back to the way that 251 00:20:07.750 --> 00:20:11.069 you define thought leadership and then what you said before that to Matthew. Show 252 00:20:11.109 --> 00:20:14.869 off the successes, but you put a little wrinkle there that I want to 253 00:20:14.910 --> 00:20:21.430 make sure that listeners key and on facilitate your contributors and make it easy for 254 00:20:21.579 --> 00:20:25.579 them to show off the successes, because if it's always you kind of waiting 255 00:20:25.660 --> 00:20:30.019 the flag of thought, thought leaderships working and look at this and and look 256 00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:33.779 at how well this piece of content did, then you know that it kind 257 00:20:33.779 --> 00:20:37.009 of gets a little bit old. But if you have some genuine excitement from 258 00:20:37.009 --> 00:20:41.730 the people who are contributing to the thought leadership efforts, sharing and showing their 259 00:20:41.769 --> 00:20:47.250 enthusiasm, their excitement and sharing the wins with the rest of the team, 260 00:20:47.289 --> 00:20:49.920 including the executive leadership team that's still has to sign off on, you know, 261 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:53.240 them spending time there, that, I think that that is so much 262 00:20:53.279 --> 00:20:56.880 more powerful. So I think both of those really makes sense. As you 263 00:20:57.519 --> 00:21:00.920 as you figure out how do we how do we deal with some of the 264 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:06.150 downturns, some of the struggles, some of the the tough times to keep 265 00:21:06.230 --> 00:21:10.869 at it from a thought leadership perspective and how do you keep people body and 266 00:21:11.069 --> 00:21:14.750 keep them moving in the right direction? I really like that. Yeah, 267 00:21:14.750 --> 00:21:18.190 and and what I would really like is to have because if you're if you're 268 00:21:18.460 --> 00:21:23.740 I'm really still hungry for more. So I would really expose expand the volumes 269 00:21:23.779 --> 00:21:27.859 I would block to sort love to see more podcast I would love to see 270 00:21:27.859 --> 00:21:33.250 more inside, I would love to see more be practices, more back round 271 00:21:33.369 --> 00:21:37.130 articles. We switched from January two thousand and nineteen. We switch to to 272 00:21:37.289 --> 00:21:44.170 English, so we overhauld the whole site to English only, and that is 273 00:21:45.529 --> 00:21:51.680 a big step into the internationalization of the company. But we're now for the 274 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:56.519 media part and for the blogs and the the more the free publicity in a 275 00:21:56.599 --> 00:22:00.680 way, or the earned media. It's we're not, we totally not begun 276 00:22:00.880 --> 00:22:06.750 with with the international marketing and research and inside blogs or media. So I 277 00:22:06.789 --> 00:22:12.190 would definitely see that there's so much opportunity still and I'm also a bit yeah, 278 00:22:12.190 --> 00:22:18.019 I'd like to what one of the have you say that the the down 279 00:22:18.099 --> 00:22:22.900 turns is that is you want to speed it up, but the you cannot 280 00:22:22.019 --> 00:22:26.779 speed it up all of a sudden. It's just you also have to be 281 00:22:26.900 --> 00:22:32.170 a bit, a bit patient sometimes. Yeah, it's not always what we 282 00:22:32.250 --> 00:22:33.609 want to hear, but that's exactly how the word I was thinking about. 283 00:22:33.609 --> 00:22:37.730 You have to show some patients with this. Investing in that leadership is an 284 00:22:37.809 --> 00:22:44.089 investment in the long game and there's just no way, there's no way around 285 00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:47.759 that. Well, Matthew, this has been a fantastic conversation. I know 286 00:22:47.920 --> 00:22:51.839 that we're definitely going to link to your episode with Bill Sherman on a similar 287 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:53.599 topic. I think that was a great one if folks want to learn a 288 00:22:53.640 --> 00:22:57.869 little bit more. Something else I was thinking about. We recently led one 289 00:22:57.910 --> 00:23:03.990 of our monthly customer mastermind calls with our customers here at sweet fish and we 290 00:23:03.109 --> 00:23:08.150 talked about our internal what we call Pov discovery process. So I point a 291 00:23:08.230 --> 00:23:14.859 view discovery where you can ask some some key questions that we use for both 292 00:23:14.900 --> 00:23:19.740 podcast interviews and creating content internally of that subject matter expert. That could be 293 00:23:19.779 --> 00:23:23.859 your guest on your podcaster, that could be your internal Sam that's contributing to 294 00:23:23.980 --> 00:23:27.769 thought leadership content. I'll share that video in the in the show notes. 295 00:23:27.809 --> 00:23:34.410 I've just found that asking some key, repeatable questions have helped to take that 296 00:23:34.809 --> 00:23:40.369 that expert who has knowledge but, like you said, they're not journalistically trained, 297 00:23:40.490 --> 00:23:44.960 they're not trained in marketing, they don't know always necessarily where is the 298 00:23:45.079 --> 00:23:48.400 gold that they have. So asking a question like Hey, matthew, what's 299 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:52.680 a commonly held belief in marketing that you passionately disagree with? Now. We 300 00:23:52.799 --> 00:23:56.829 won't get into that. That's a podcast for another day, but you can 301 00:23:56.910 --> 00:24:00.869 just tell that by asking that question I get the wheel spinning right. So 302 00:24:00.430 --> 00:24:03.509 we'll share that, as well as your other episode with bill in the show 303 00:24:03.549 --> 00:24:07.349 notes. Aside from that, Matthew, any other resources or ways to get 304 00:24:07.349 --> 00:24:11.140 in touch with you in the team at Woah that you would recommend for folks 305 00:24:11.180 --> 00:24:15.619 listening to this today? Yeah, the best is Linkedin, I guess. 306 00:24:17.140 --> 00:24:22.019 So following our company page would be would be really great. It's would be 307 00:24:22.299 --> 00:24:25.009 would be very nice if you could show that also in the in the show 308 00:24:25.049 --> 00:24:30.369 notes and following me on on also on Linkedin. That would be that would 309 00:24:30.369 --> 00:24:36.890 be great. Or subscribe to our general newsletters on who have globalcom. That 310 00:24:36.930 --> 00:24:40.960 would also be really recommendable, of course. Awesome, awesome. Well, 311 00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:44.519 Matthew, thank you so much for making time across time zones. I love 312 00:24:44.640 --> 00:24:48.599 this about podcast and we get to hear from marketing leaders that are doing great 313 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:52.630 things with content and establishing thought leadership for their brands from all over the place, 314 00:24:52.750 --> 00:24:56.829 and you guys are doing some great stuff at also thank you for making 315 00:24:56.950 --> 00:25:00.109 time to spend with me and with listeners to today. If you're my brother. 316 00:25:00.309 --> 00:25:04.190 Thank you. One of the things we've learned about podcast audience growth is 317 00:25:04.309 --> 00:25:08.700 that word of mouth works. It works really, really well actually. So, 318 00:25:08.859 --> 00:25:11.859 if you love this show, would be awesome if you texted a friend 319 00:25:12.059 --> 00:25:15.980 to tell them about it, and if you send me a text with a 320 00:25:15.059 --> 00:25:18.859 screenshot of the text you sent to your friend, Metta, I know I'll 321 00:25:18.940 --> 00:25:22.569 send you a copy of my book content based networking, how to instantly connect 322 00:25:22.609 --> 00:25:26.650 with anyone. You want to know my cell phone numbers. Four hundred and 323 00:25:26.690 --> 00:25:30.890 seven, four nine, hundred and three and three, two eight. Happy 324 00:25:30.970 --> texting.