1357: How to Grow Your Podcast Audience (What Right Way)

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.799 --> 00:00:09.509 Welcome back to BB growth. I'm Dan Sanchez with sweetfish media, and today 2 00:00:09.589 --> 00:00:12.869 I'm joined with rand fish can, who is the founder of Spark Toro, 3 00:00:13.269 --> 00:00:16.149 and MAS ran. Today I wanted to kick it off with kind of a 4 00:00:16.230 --> 00:00:20.350 fun question that I like to ask. But back in the S, what 5 00:00:20.589 --> 00:00:25.339 did you use for your AOL screen name? Oh, I never did AOLL. 6 00:00:26.699 --> 00:00:30.980 No screen name. Come screen name. No, no AOL account. 7 00:00:31.100 --> 00:00:34.060 I all I did with those CDs that they sent me in the mail was 8 00:00:34.100 --> 00:00:38.570 put them in the microwave. I'm sure that was he's a little sparks dance 9 00:00:38.729 --> 00:00:41.890 on them. Absolutely. We all had to do it once at least. 10 00:00:42.609 --> 00:00:46.289 So thanks for joining me on the show today, rand, and today we're 11 00:00:46.289 --> 00:00:51.880 going to be talking about podcast audience growth strategies and how spark Toro can help 12 00:00:51.920 --> 00:00:56.079 as a tool to help your podcast grow. So, rand, I wanted 13 00:00:56.079 --> 00:01:00.640 to cover today, like some specific strategies around specifically paid media, owned media 14 00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:06.709 and earned medias kind of the three broad categories for growing an audience. What 15 00:01:06.790 --> 00:01:10.989 would you think about paid media specifically, like a lot of people ask me 16 00:01:11.030 --> 00:01:12.310 all the time, like Dann, what are some ways, where should we 17 00:01:12.390 --> 00:01:15.549 be advertising? What are some ways to grow audience you. As you know, 18 00:01:15.670 --> 00:01:19.540 with podcasting it's a little bit hard to track, you know, whether 19 00:01:19.620 --> 00:01:22.579 you've got a subscriber or not, because they don't really give you that information 20 00:01:22.859 --> 00:01:26.939 from Apple. So what are some some ways you've seen podcasters grow audience, 21 00:01:26.980 --> 00:01:30.900 specifically through paid channels, and what channels do you find working the best? 22 00:01:30.900 --> 00:01:37.250 Yeah, I've I've seen a few, not just podcasters but other creators of 23 00:01:37.290 --> 00:01:44.409 episodic content, build audiences through Linkedin ads, twitter ads. That's especially if 24 00:01:44.489 --> 00:01:52.879 they're be to be higher like sort of higher revenue per subscriber types of content 25 00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:57.719 series. Those two channels tend to work pretty well. If you're looking more 26 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:02.909 for the consumer side of things, facebook and instagram can work well, Google 27 00:02:02.950 --> 00:02:07.030 display can as well. But I got to be honest with you, Dan, 28 00:02:07.709 --> 00:02:15.310 in my opinion, going for something like paid targeted ads with a subscriber 29 00:02:15.590 --> 00:02:20.860 to a podcast model is not a great use of your time and dollars, 30 00:02:21.460 --> 00:02:27.500 and that that's just because those ad platforms are extremely expensive per sort of click 31 00:02:27.620 --> 00:02:31.889 through, per impression compared to other creative things that you could be doing with 32 00:02:32.009 --> 00:02:36.969 your dollars in time. And that includes on the earned and own side, 33 00:02:37.729 --> 00:02:44.560 but it also includes more creative forms of advertising and sponsorship. Right. So 34 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:52.639 I've seen podcast sponsor events, I've seen podcast do brand partnerships. I've seen 35 00:02:52.719 --> 00:02:57.080 them. Do you know sort of influencer marketing kinds of things right where essentially 36 00:02:57.080 --> 00:03:02.870 they're doing they're doing sponsored amplify action directly from a someone with a large social 37 00:03:02.870 --> 00:03:09.789 or content following of their own. Those more creative formats are, in my 38 00:03:09.949 --> 00:03:15.379 opinion, far better places to put advertising dollars. If add dollars is really 39 00:03:15.379 --> 00:03:19.139 where you want to put it, sure, and probably of the three you 40 00:03:19.340 --> 00:03:23.180 talked about, I would say paid media for podcast audience growth. I would 41 00:03:23.219 --> 00:03:25.580 put that down at the bottom. The other thing I would do, if 42 00:03:25.620 --> 00:03:30.490 I'm going to spend any money, screw getting an apple subscription, like no, 43 00:03:30.689 --> 00:03:35.370 that is not my goal. I want an email address. I want 44 00:03:35.569 --> 00:03:39.129 write the email. Email, the email capture is the most important part, 45 00:03:39.129 --> 00:03:42.680 and so I would basically say, Hey, you're interested in our podcast, 46 00:03:42.719 --> 00:03:46.479 awesome blobble, bubble here is. You know, the way to sign up 47 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:50.280 is through email, because that email address will let you do so many more 48 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:53.080 forms of you know, email open rates are like two thousand two and twenty 49 00:03:53.120 --> 00:03:58.469 five percent on average for a normal blast, but if you're sending a welcome 50 00:03:58.509 --> 00:04:01.069 email after they first sign up, it's probably his high as five seventy are 51 00:04:01.189 --> 00:04:05.590 absolutely I send personalized emails to every person who signed up for spark tourrow and 52 00:04:05.949 --> 00:04:12.219 those open rates are yet bordering on ninety plus percent. Right. So incredible. 53 00:04:12.659 --> 00:04:15.539 But an email capture, even if you're just sending blast emails, like 54 00:04:15.659 --> 00:04:17.699 you said, twenty two, twenty five percent. Right. But what is 55 00:04:17.740 --> 00:04:24.259 it for a facebook like on your page? Right? It's like zero point 56 00:04:24.370 --> 00:04:29.089 zero nine percent. Is the current average? I think so. No comparison. 57 00:04:29.930 --> 00:04:32.370 I haven't heard somebody advertising to get a facebook like in a very long 58 00:04:32.449 --> 00:04:38.410 time, even using facebook pages at all to market pretty much much of anything 59 00:04:38.600 --> 00:04:41.959 other than to create some pr because you're running facebook ads, maybe in so 60 00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:45.079 much clicks through to your profile, right. Yeah, that's about it. 61 00:04:45.199 --> 00:04:49.279 I have heard people doing some good things with driving growth through email acquisition and 62 00:04:49.399 --> 00:04:51.910 then pointing them to their their player of choice, right, because then you 63 00:04:51.910 --> 00:04:56.509 can't track and you don't know where they go after that. Interesting to talk 64 00:04:56.550 --> 00:05:00.310 about events and brand sponsorships, especially using add dollars to find out what kind 65 00:05:00.310 --> 00:05:04.949 of podcast you could be sponsoring or doing. Some potentially some host read ads 66 00:05:04.949 --> 00:05:10.660 that are advertising other podcast and of course, spark Toro would probably make that 67 00:05:10.699 --> 00:05:14.899 a little easier. Maybe not so much with the events, but what brands 68 00:05:14.980 --> 00:05:18.819 the sponsor and who defined right? So what what would be some ways like 69 00:05:18.860 --> 00:05:23.410 if you were looking to throw some paid media a podcast advertising? What would 70 00:05:23.410 --> 00:05:27.370 be the first things you'd be looking at in Spark Toro to find out where 71 00:05:27.449 --> 00:05:30.930 that audience is spending their time? Sure so. I mean for folks who 72 00:05:30.930 --> 00:05:34.529 aren't familiar with it, right, Spark Toro is essentially a platform for audience 73 00:05:34.689 --> 00:05:39.360 research and Audience Intelligence. So I can say, Oh, I want to 74 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:46.639 know what landscape architects in California are watching, reading, visiting, engaging with 75 00:05:47.160 --> 00:05:53.350 and listening to right podcast specifically. So there's a there's a tab in sparked 76 00:05:53.389 --> 00:05:57.589 Oro to see what any audience, any describable audience, is listening to. 77 00:05:57.790 --> 00:06:00.430 And so one of the things that can be very, very useful is saying, 78 00:06:01.029 --> 00:06:04.980 oh, Hey, you know, here's Dan Sanchez is, here's here's 79 00:06:05.060 --> 00:06:10.779 his social account. Let's plug that in and see what people who engage with 80 00:06:10.819 --> 00:06:15.899 Dan Sanchez on one or more social platforms. What podcast do they listen to? 81 00:06:15.620 --> 00:06:18.050 Write? What websites do they visit? Who else do they fall on 82 00:06:18.129 --> 00:06:21.370 social all right, let's take some of those right, because if Dan's going 83 00:06:21.370 --> 00:06:26.209 to be a guest on my podcast next week, this is the perfect time 84 00:06:26.730 --> 00:06:30.769 to go reach out to those sources and get them to potentially amplify, for 85 00:06:30.930 --> 00:06:36.399 free or paid, right what Dan's appearance on my podcast. And in fact, 86 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:40.199 I can probably even if you're going to be a guest on my podcast, 87 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:44.480 I can probably even get a quote from you, a little ten second 88 00:06:44.519 --> 00:06:47.470 video clip right of you talking about, Oh, I was on ran's podcast. 89 00:06:47.509 --> 00:06:51.069 I don't I realize I'm on your podcast, but right like, Oh, 90 00:06:51.509 --> 00:06:55.990 you know, I'm on ran's podcast and I'll see you there. We'll 91 00:06:56.029 --> 00:06:59.230 be talking about x and Y and Z. Join me next Tuesday. Boom, 92 00:06:59.949 --> 00:07:02.620 there you go. Right, that's your little ad that you upload your 93 00:07:02.660 --> 00:07:08.819 video to Linkedin and twitter and Youtube and whatever channels you're using for promotion, 94 00:07:09.019 --> 00:07:13.939 instagram potentially too, and then getting folks to amplify that, getting the right 95 00:07:14.139 --> 00:07:16.930 folks, write, the people that the audience pays attention to, to amplify 96 00:07:17.009 --> 00:07:19.730 that. So I'd be interesting, let's say. I mean you're on the 97 00:07:19.769 --> 00:07:25.290 podcast now, I could potentially take a clip and run it against Youtube, 98 00:07:25.569 --> 00:07:30.399 people watching mass youtube videos, for example, and drive the story as to 99 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:34.360 potentially mean ast audience. Yeah, so you could use that as ad targeting, 100 00:07:34.439 --> 00:07:36.800 right. You could essentially go in and say, all right, show 101 00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:43.000 me an audience that follows at rand fish right on on your linkedin or twitter 102 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:46.430 or facebook or whatever, and I want to see what else they engage with. 103 00:07:46.509 --> 00:07:49.670 I'm sure MOS would be one of those channels, right, spark torow's 104 00:07:49.670 --> 00:07:56.269 one of those channels, and then you would essentially take that data from the 105 00:07:56.350 --> 00:08:00.180 Audience Intelligence Tab, from the Social Tab, and you could plug those in 106 00:08:00.459 --> 00:08:07.420 as targeting choices for facebook ads, for Google display, for Youtube, for 107 00:08:07.980 --> 00:08:11.420 heck, for Reddit, for linked in, for twitter, right, any 108 00:08:11.459 --> 00:08:15.250 of these platforms or tick Tock. The frustrating part about a lot of these 109 00:08:15.329 --> 00:08:20.449 is I'm sure you remember the days when facebook adds would give you this data, 110 00:08:20.490 --> 00:08:24.689 right. They would tell you more about your own audience and when you 111 00:08:24.810 --> 00:08:28.480 went to the facebook adds interface, the audience builder in the Ads Platform would 112 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:33.639 let you, would give you far more data that you could choose from right 113 00:08:33.759 --> 00:08:37.360 and see about any given audience. And then they pulled back on it for 114 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:43.950 ostensibly privacy reasons. Although broad AD targeting and higher ad dollar prices. It's 115 00:08:43.350 --> 00:08:48.309 I'm sure they're not crying about that either. How it's that is from political 116 00:08:48.350 --> 00:08:52.029 reasons. But yeahs, that's right. Yeah, I think there's there's folks 117 00:08:52.029 --> 00:08:54.860 who point to Cambra Channel, Litica scandal and say like, Oh, that's 118 00:08:54.899 --> 00:08:58.139 why they pulled back on all these add options. But that day it is 119 00:08:58.220 --> 00:09:03.340 essential to being able to do good targeting and and so's farked to rror kind 120 00:09:03.379 --> 00:09:05.779 of gives some of that data back. Right, I can see. What 121 00:09:05.860 --> 00:09:07.700 are the hashtags? What are the topics of interest? What are the words 122 00:09:07.740 --> 00:09:11.370 and phrases these people using their BIOS? What job titles they tend to have? 123 00:09:13.009 --> 00:09:16.450 What words and phrases they use in their shares and content? What topics 124 00:09:16.529 --> 00:09:18.970 do they follow on social and then I can I can plug all those in 125 00:09:20.610 --> 00:09:24.639 to my ad targeting options on whatever platform and get a much narrower, more 126 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:30.559 precise, more high relevance audience and make so much sense. That's kind of 127 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:33.000 the rhythm with add targeting platforms, right, they give you a lot and 128 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:35.879 then they slowly just take it away. Right, with ad words, you 129 00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:39.070 feel like for those who had started working with ad words like ten years ago. 130 00:09:39.190 --> 00:09:43.110 You know the pain of like how much you're not working with nowadays compared 131 00:09:43.110 --> 00:09:46.509 to the good old days of when it was still new, when they took 132 00:09:46.549 --> 00:09:48.110 away I mean, what was that September? First they took away like twenty 133 00:09:48.149 --> 00:09:54.179 five percent of all the keyword data that they were showing and add prices basically 134 00:09:54.259 --> 00:10:03.659 skyrocketed for everybody and would have would have just pure greed money grab well, 135 00:10:03.779 --> 00:10:07.139 you know, from a kind of a capitalistic perspective, and certainly allows new 136 00:10:07.169 --> 00:10:09.049 entrance to come into the market. And you know now we see tick tock 137 00:10:09.090 --> 00:10:11.929 starting to come in and people are excited about that. Say Now it's a 138 00:10:13.009 --> 00:10:16.450 new platform that maybe take advantage of and maybe whoever has tick tock next, 139 00:10:16.490 --> 00:10:18.529 if it even continues to be a thing, it was going to say do 140 00:10:18.690 --> 00:10:22.120 something, could do something fun with it, where people what they're add money 141 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:24.639 are like, Oh look, this is cheaper and they give us Moreton data 142 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:28.240 to do something. But my sense is capitalism works really well when there's a 143 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:33.399 lot of small and medium companies competing in a market and it works really badly 144 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:39.269 when there's a few dominant, powerful companies that lobby governments and politicians. And 145 00:10:39.990 --> 00:10:43.750 I think we're feeling the pain of that in technology right now? Yes, 146 00:10:43.830 --> 00:10:46.309 we are, but kind of moving on from paid obviously, I think sparked 147 00:10:46.309 --> 00:10:50.259 to our really shines when it comes to earned right, because now, if 148 00:10:50.259 --> 00:10:56.379 I know the specific players and the content platforms that influence influence and audience. 149 00:10:56.379 --> 00:11:01.139 Right, you mentioned we could sponsor somebody shows. What are some relevant ways 150 00:11:01.299 --> 00:11:05.529 beyond just paying to play, to sponsor events that podcasters can use to get 151 00:11:05.570 --> 00:11:09.889 there, to essentially grow their audience in their their reach? Yeah, so, 152 00:11:11.049 --> 00:11:13.409 I mean, look, if you're a podcaster or an episodic content creator 153 00:11:13.409 --> 00:11:16.889 of any kind, you know that one of the most valuable things you can 154 00:11:16.929 --> 00:11:22.240 do is have a guests that reach the audience you want to reach already. 155 00:11:22.279 --> 00:11:26.600 Right. So if, for example, you Dan, we're trying to reach 156 00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:33.950 audiences that are interested in sort of early stage startups, meets web marketing and 157 00:11:33.870 --> 00:11:37.389 content and Seo and social, I'm a very good guest for that, right, 158 00:11:37.389 --> 00:11:41.149 because that's the audience that I tend to reach, and so having me 159 00:11:41.389 --> 00:11:46.149 on your show will tend to reach those people. It is also the case 160 00:11:46.230 --> 00:11:48.860 for every other podcaster that if they want to reach those audiences, they should 161 00:11:48.860 --> 00:11:56.980 have guests that are popular important well followed, well liked with those audiences, 162 00:11:56.139 --> 00:12:00.299 and that's exactly what spark Toro can tell you, right. So if you 163 00:12:00.419 --> 00:12:07.769 want to reach whatever fly fishing enthusiasts in Canada, well, Spark Toro can 164 00:12:07.850 --> 00:12:11.250 tell you what people who talk about fly fishing or have whatever fly fishing in 165 00:12:11.330 --> 00:12:16.000 their bio and are located in Canada, what do they follow? What do 166 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:18.320 they read? What are they listen to? Who are the social accounts that 167 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:22.480 they pay attention to? And there's even a filter where you can say, 168 00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:24.639 don't show me businesses, I just want individuals, right, and okay, 169 00:12:24.919 --> 00:12:28.720 boom, here's the seven people I want to I want to pitch this woman 170 00:12:28.720 --> 00:12:33.110 who's very popular with fly fishing enthusiasts in Canada. Get her on the program 171 00:12:33.509 --> 00:12:35.629 boom, right like that. That's exactly the kind of thing you want to 172 00:12:35.629 --> 00:12:39.990 do. And then the second is topics. Right, so you want to 173 00:12:39.110 --> 00:12:41.509 know, Oh, look and we'll ask whatever. Ninety, two hundred and 174 00:12:41.509 --> 00:12:46.299 twenty days, which is what sparked Toros index tends to cover, these are 175 00:12:46.379 --> 00:12:50.500 the words and phrases, the topics, the hashtags that this audience tended to 176 00:12:50.700 --> 00:12:54.539 use most. So, if you know, seven and a half percent of 177 00:12:54.700 --> 00:13:01.169 fly fishing enthusiasts in Canada talked about. I don't know anything about fly fishing, 178 00:13:01.929 --> 00:13:05.649 let's say. Let's say they were talking about travel in the pandemic. 179 00:13:05.690 --> 00:13:11.169 Right, okay, I want to find someone from whatever Canada's Bureau of Tourism 180 00:13:11.409 --> 00:13:15.919 to come on the program and talk about where it's safe to travel and how 181 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:20.200 it's safest to travel during the pandemic so that people can get out to the 182 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:22.039 rivers and lakes that they want to get to. Boom, okay, great, 183 00:13:22.240 --> 00:13:24.960 I've got the people who reach my audience and I know the topics that 184 00:13:26.039 --> 00:13:28.149 they want to pay attention to. And so now now I am able to 185 00:13:30.269 --> 00:13:33.429 do those right kinds of shows and right kinds of programming and get that right 186 00:13:33.470 --> 00:13:39.590 kind of amplification, whether that's on social channels or through PR right like if 187 00:13:39.590 --> 00:13:43.179 I'm if I'm having someone from the Department of I don't know what Canada's Department 188 00:13:43.220 --> 00:13:46.019 of Travel and tourism looks like, but if I'm having someone like that, 189 00:13:46.620 --> 00:13:52.740 you bet I am going to go and find all the people who are influential, 190 00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:56.049 all the publications that are influential in travel and tourism in Canada, and 191 00:13:56.129 --> 00:13:58.929 I'm going to pitch them on. Hey, I had this person on there 192 00:14:00.009 --> 00:14:03.970 on my podcast. Here are some poll quotes. This might make for a 193 00:14:03.049 --> 00:14:07.250 great story. Boom, right, and the email addresses are right in there. 194 00:14:07.250 --> 00:14:09.370 So I'd be like, Oh, Hey, I don't know, what 195 00:14:09.490 --> 00:14:13.240 is it? The the mail and post or the globe? Right? I 196 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:18.200 hope your Canadian listeners are probably like no, ran, those aren't our publications. 197 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.720 I apologize for not being super familiar with Canadian media, but that could 198 00:14:22.720 --> 00:14:28.389 be exactly how you want to go do that digital PR pitching. It's really 199 00:14:28.429 --> 00:14:31.350 interesting tactics. So using one you can find the guess that you need to 200 00:14:31.429 --> 00:14:35.750 have on your show that are the most relevant, not just kind of relevant, 201 00:14:35.789 --> 00:14:37.700 but the most relevant to your audience. It's nice because it creates a 202 00:14:37.740 --> 00:14:41.419 whole list for you, so you can essentially just go through the whole list, 203 00:14:41.500 --> 00:14:43.779 starting, of course, the most relevant. The usually the hardest to 204 00:14:43.820 --> 00:14:46.700 get a hold of, but you could still find multiple people who would be 205 00:14:46.700 --> 00:14:50.139 able to be a guest on your show and then using that show to generate 206 00:14:50.659 --> 00:14:56.090 pr is not an angle that I don't think many people are using. Why 207 00:14:56.210 --> 00:15:00.049 not? So I mean that is a idea. I don't think we've done 208 00:15:00.049 --> 00:15:03.169 it much ourselves. So I'm like wondering, like how would break it up 209 00:15:03.169 --> 00:15:07.200 into a press release and thence forward it to the relevant news media, potentially. 210 00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:11.120 I mean it depends on how formal you're thinking about it from a PR 211 00:15:11.200 --> 00:15:13.879 perspective, right. So old school pr. Yeah, I might do you 212 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:18.399 know, if I'm a big publication, maybe a big podcast, right, 213 00:15:18.440 --> 00:15:22.190 I might do a formal press release, send that to the journalists, etc. 214 00:15:22.789 --> 00:15:24.629 But to be honest, if I'd a smaller, you know, Niche 215 00:15:24.710 --> 00:15:31.269 Podcaster, what I'm probably going to do is send a direct email to whatever 216 00:15:31.350 --> 00:15:37.379 it is, you know, a blog or a news publication or an industry 217 00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:43.100 niche publication or whatever the the outlet is the type of publication that covers my 218 00:15:43.299 --> 00:15:48.220 field or topic, and I just say hey, I had, you know, 219 00:15:48.299 --> 00:15:50.330 Dan Sanchez on and he talked about x and Y and Z. I 220 00:15:50.850 --> 00:15:54.169 think this is going to be really interesting for you in your audience. Would 221 00:15:54.169 --> 00:15:56.889 you want to give it a listen before it comes out? Do you want 222 00:15:56.929 --> 00:16:00.889 some of the poll quotes from it? Right? Would you be up for 223 00:16:00.009 --> 00:16:04.279 amplifying it? You could get potentially a lot of uptick, especially if you 224 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:10.600 get those kind of important guests on that those types of publications are likely to 225 00:16:10.679 --> 00:16:14.879 cover anyway, and that's often true in the worlds of like sort of higher 226 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:18.990 echelons of business, definitely true in media and entertainment and obviously very true, 227 00:16:18.990 --> 00:16:26.149 especially right now, in areas like epidemiology and, you know, science and 228 00:16:26.389 --> 00:16:30.830 and travel and tourism and politics. So are they now? I'm trying to 229 00:16:30.870 --> 00:16:33.940 play this through in my mind and it seems like sparked to our would also 230 00:16:33.980 --> 00:16:37.139 be a great tool for that, because when I could find one, find 231 00:16:37.179 --> 00:16:41.860 the guests, invite them on the show, use sparked Oro to plug in 232 00:16:41.940 --> 00:16:45.860 their name, figure out which websites that audit the audience of that guest is 233 00:16:45.899 --> 00:16:48.809 using and sparked row and while many of the top websites, you know, 234 00:16:48.850 --> 00:16:52.049 hub spot comes up. They're like, okay, they're just not going to 235 00:16:52.090 --> 00:16:55.929 feature write anybody, but a lot of the people on the middle to bottom 236 00:16:55.929 --> 00:17:00.049 half of that list might just as well and you can create any L let's 237 00:17:00.129 --> 00:17:02.639 to reach out to them, you know, personally, one by one, 238 00:17:02.720 --> 00:17:07.559 customize the email. Take the time instead of blasting them all and then any 239 00:17:07.599 --> 00:17:11.400 hubs. Thought is actually a really interesting example. They're right, because hub 240 00:17:11.519 --> 00:17:17.990 spot accepts guest publications. So you could conceivably write something up about. Hey, 241 00:17:18.150 --> 00:17:22.910 I talk to five of the whatever top digital marketing experts about what's coming 242 00:17:22.990 --> 00:17:30.740 next in two thousand and twenty one and how how a potential rebounding economy or 243 00:17:30.019 --> 00:17:34.579 situation is going to affect marketing. Here's what they said. Here are the 244 00:17:34.579 --> 00:17:38.500 lessons I took away. Would help spot be interested in a publication like that? 245 00:17:40.539 --> 00:17:44.259 I guarantee they almost certainly would write so like now. Now, now 246 00:17:44.450 --> 00:17:48.730 you're not just getting amplification from those niche publications. You can take those top 247 00:17:48.930 --> 00:17:55.529 ones and get whatever an op Ed or guest contribution and that could drive. 248 00:17:55.650 --> 00:18:00.079 That's not only going to drive potentially eight people directly to your podcast subscription, 249 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:04.160 but it will also mean that your brand and your name, the name of 250 00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:07.480 your podcast, the linked to your podcast, all those things sort of. 251 00:18:07.920 --> 00:18:12.269 It's like a rising tie that lifts all ships, because these signals can mean 252 00:18:12.390 --> 00:18:18.869 more search traffic for you, more ranking authority, more brand relevance. Right, 253 00:18:18.950 --> 00:18:21.910 people have seen your name and your podcast name before, so they're more 254 00:18:21.950 --> 00:18:25.950 likely to click you, more likely to subscribe to its virtuous circle. What 255 00:18:26.069 --> 00:18:27.980 I like about it is spark Toro, just like these, are already things 256 00:18:29.019 --> 00:18:30.619 that you could have done, but if you're just using the tool a little 257 00:18:30.619 --> 00:18:34.059 bit better, you can use it just to make everything a little bit more 258 00:18:34.140 --> 00:18:38.180 relevant. Yeah, yeah, absolutely different view on all these different things that 259 00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:41.609 you need to do and probably already are doing, but you're working from your 260 00:18:41.650 --> 00:18:45.490 same list over and over again. You know, like we all know, 261 00:18:45.609 --> 00:18:48.529 like if you're working in like we're in BB marketing, we kind of know 262 00:18:48.569 --> 00:18:51.569 who the major players are. We kind of know who the major publications are 263 00:18:51.690 --> 00:18:53.730 podcast, right, but what happens when we get a guest that's has a 264 00:18:53.849 --> 00:18:57.200 slightly nuanced version? Right now, we can do jump into what's more relevant 265 00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:03.079 to their audience, right, and that makes all the difference when you're in 266 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:07.039 handling. I have been consistently surprised by the degree to which people think they 267 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:11.309 know who the major players are. Right. They have it in their head 268 00:19:11.390 --> 00:19:12.910 like Oh, well, these are the big players, and then they look 269 00:19:12.910 --> 00:19:17.950 at the listen they're like, oh, I can't believe these four that I 270 00:19:18.029 --> 00:19:19.990 I guess I've heard of them, but I didn't think of them and they're 271 00:19:21.029 --> 00:19:25.220 even bigger than the five that I was thinking about in terms of reaching this 272 00:19:25.259 --> 00:19:29.660 particular audience. Right. So it's true. I've actually what's surprised the people 273 00:19:29.740 --> 00:19:30.940 that are on the top five are not even close to the people I would 274 00:19:30.940 --> 00:19:34.940 have put in the top five right, and a lot of that is it's 275 00:19:36.019 --> 00:19:40.890 not that. The thing about spark Toro is it is not measuring or it's 276 00:19:40.930 --> 00:19:47.490 not prioritizing total reach. So if a if a publication's audience is very large, 277 00:19:48.130 --> 00:19:49.730 that won't put it at the very top of sparked Toro. It will 278 00:19:49.809 --> 00:19:53.839 only put it at the top if the percent of the audience that you are 279 00:19:55.000 --> 00:19:59.319 searching for is very high, right, the percent of the audience that pays 280 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:03.519 attention. So very often you'll see what you and I might consider a more 281 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:08.069 niche publication doing a better job of reaching a specific audience than a very large 282 00:20:08.269 --> 00:20:12.029 publication. Right. This is kind of I call this like the Wall Street 283 00:20:12.029 --> 00:20:17.069 Journal problem. Every you've ever had this experience where you like you know, 284 00:20:17.150 --> 00:20:19.950 you talked to a CEO or CEMO and you're like, well, I think 285 00:20:21.069 --> 00:20:23.099 you know, here the podcast I think we should sponsor and here's some of 286 00:20:23.180 --> 00:20:26.740 the publications I want to get us into, and they're like no, I 287 00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:30.980 want you to get me in the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, 288 00:20:30.059 --> 00:20:33.619 because that's what our customers read, and you're like, God, I 289 00:20:33.819 --> 00:20:37.170 golf with our customers every weekend and I know that you read the Wall Street 290 00:20:37.170 --> 00:20:42.009 Journal. You know, just shoot me like yeah, maybe, but like, 291 00:20:42.289 --> 00:20:47.170 so are hundreds of thousands of other people who aren't even close to being 292 00:20:47.210 --> 00:20:51.000 your demographic right. Right. And so you, when you try and day 293 00:20:51.039 --> 00:20:55.039 waste that conversation time or money. Yeah, you, you want to bring 294 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:57.440 day to those conversations. That's that's what you need. So we've talked a 295 00:20:57.480 --> 00:21:03.599 lot about earned media and I think there's like almost more to be explored there. 296 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:06.789 So I feel like a big part of what sparked Toro can do and 297 00:21:06.869 --> 00:21:11.230 a big part of honestly, podcasting his relationship building. Right. So how 298 00:21:11.309 --> 00:21:17.829 have you found that it can strengthen relationships? My my sort of got tactic 299 00:21:18.819 --> 00:21:26.259 in building a one to one relationship is almost always to make that first outreach 300 00:21:26.460 --> 00:21:29.980 over one social channel or another. So, for example, you know, 301 00:21:30.180 --> 00:21:33.250 let's say I want to pitch someone to be on their podcast or I'd really 302 00:21:33.329 --> 00:21:37.329 like to be a guest. What I'm going to do, generally speaking, 303 00:21:37.609 --> 00:21:41.609 is comment on a few of their linkedin posts, maybe send them a connection 304 00:21:41.650 --> 00:21:45.769 invite right, listen to a few of their episodes. I'll include that in 305 00:21:45.849 --> 00:21:48.920 my outreach on linked and be like Hey, I'd love to follow you, 306 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:52.640 connect with you there. Great, that starts a relationship. I might reply 307 00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:56.759 to a few of their tweets. I might quote tweet something, I might 308 00:21:56.880 --> 00:22:00.559 retweet something of theirs and comment on it. I might do the same on 309 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:03.029 one of their facebook pages. I might do the same on their instagram. 310 00:22:04.150 --> 00:22:08.069 All those interactions that build up. Then they'll start to be like, Oh 311 00:22:08.829 --> 00:22:12.150 yeah, that ran fish can guy's I've been connecting with him on social. 312 00:22:12.190 --> 00:22:17.579 Let's say school. You see an email from me in your inbox after we've 313 00:22:17.579 --> 00:22:22.380 had a conversation on social, it's way more relevant right like it builds. 314 00:22:22.460 --> 00:22:27.980 It makes that first email outreach way more likely to be responded to. Write 315 00:22:29.059 --> 00:22:32.609 and if I send you something like, Dan, it's been really cool chatting 316 00:22:32.609 --> 00:22:36.809 with you the last couple weeks on on twitter and Linkedin, and I couldn't 317 00:22:36.809 --> 00:22:40.009 help but ask, like, I see you've got this podcast to be about, 318 00:22:40.049 --> 00:22:42.529 be to be marketing. Would you maybe want to chat about sparked Toro 319 00:22:42.690 --> 00:22:48.160 sometime on there that that outreach attempt versus. Hello, Dan, my name 320 00:22:48.200 --> 00:22:52.039 is Ryan Fishkin and I am the CEO of sparked Toro and we would like 321 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:55.279 to be on your podcast. You're going to delete that. You're going to 322 00:22:55.359 --> 00:23:02.150 report spam. Right, we do every day. Of hopefully not for me 323 00:23:02.230 --> 00:23:04.910 specifically, but you know, no, I invited you and it's only because 324 00:23:04.950 --> 00:23:07.869 your email, I mean your email open rates have got to be through the 325 00:23:07.950 --> 00:23:11.950 roof one, because their personal. I could tell you actually like looked at 326 00:23:11.950 --> 00:23:15.019 our website. Yep, in it. Partly it's because you're ran fish kid, 327 00:23:15.099 --> 00:23:17.819 right, so it's a personal email from somebody that I know and I'm 328 00:23:17.859 --> 00:23:21.740 like, Oh, what's up? Yeah, so I'd made into there. 329 00:23:21.859 --> 00:23:25.339 You have a platform. Yeah, I think this is huge for lisonalizing. 330 00:23:25.380 --> 00:23:30.609 It certainly stands out exactly right. Like you, you are trying to stand 331 00:23:30.650 --> 00:23:38.609 out amidst all this noise, all this just these ecosystems of spam, right, 332 00:23:38.730 --> 00:23:45.960 and crap and low quality mass produced outreach, and I think the way 333 00:23:45.039 --> 00:23:48.119 to do that is to relationship build first, and so this is, you 334 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:52.839 know, this is where, on the own side, I really like one 335 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:56.549 of the things that we own right, that own media sometimes ignores, is 336 00:23:56.750 --> 00:24:02.869 relationships, like direct relationships that you have you have people's email addresses, you 337 00:24:02.910 --> 00:24:04.710 have a list of emails. You can do two things with that. You 338 00:24:04.789 --> 00:24:11.140 can blast it out or you can take that email and you can craft individual 339 00:24:11.299 --> 00:24:15.339 things, and a great way to do that is to figure out who they 340 00:24:15.339 --> 00:24:18.819 are and what their audience is like and where they're interacting and engaging and go 341 00:24:19.019 --> 00:24:25.250 build a relationship in those places first, ma'am. So that's the rhythm that 342 00:24:25.450 --> 00:24:29.130 you use. It doesn't necessarily take sparked to our in order to build relationships 343 00:24:29.170 --> 00:24:33.369 and commenting on their their social media, building it slowly and emailing them. 344 00:24:33.410 --> 00:24:36.529 Yeah, it's far Toro is great for, like, you know, two 345 00:24:36.609 --> 00:24:38.759 things, finding out who those people are, i. Who are the influential 346 00:24:38.759 --> 00:24:44.000 people that I want to reach out to, and then getting their email addresses 347 00:24:44.079 --> 00:24:49.519 and getting all their social contact data. But the process doesn't involve tools at 348 00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:55.349 all. Right, it's basically you and your email. So there's some other 349 00:24:55.990 --> 00:24:57.549 at least I thought of one other way to do owned media, but I 350 00:24:57.710 --> 00:25:00.670 like to hear a little bit more about like what can we use sparked Ra 351 00:25:00.829 --> 00:25:04.230 for to help our own media? When it comes to podcasting? HMM, 352 00:25:04.950 --> 00:25:11.660 yeah, I think when you are producing episodes, one of the keys is 353 00:25:11.940 --> 00:25:15.500 to for many, many folks, is to try and figure out how do 354 00:25:15.619 --> 00:25:21.730 I get sponsorship so that I can put more production value into this, so 355 00:25:21.890 --> 00:25:25.490 that I can scale up what I'm doing, so that I can reach figure 356 00:25:25.529 --> 00:25:29.690 audiences and and sparked rose is pretty good on both sides of those right. 357 00:25:29.730 --> 00:25:33.930 So for growing the audience that you want to reach, it will tell you 358 00:25:33.250 --> 00:25:38.119 where and to whom and how to amplify that can help grow that audience, 359 00:25:38.160 --> 00:25:41.240 which is exactly what owned media is all about, right, building up those 360 00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:48.200 subscriptions. And then the second piece, I think, is the the owned 361 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:52.029 portion of your your revenue that you're generating as a podcaster, and that's going 362 00:25:52.069 --> 00:25:56.950 to come from finding the right sponsors. If you plug your own, you 363 00:25:57.029 --> 00:26:02.309 know, your podcast social account, your personal social account, the the show 364 00:26:02.470 --> 00:26:07.460 socials account, social accounts, the website into sparked our you can see the 365 00:26:07.700 --> 00:26:12.460 audience that those that that's attracted there, what characteristics they have in what proportion 366 00:26:12.980 --> 00:26:17.460 and what else they pay attention to. And if you see, for example, 367 00:26:17.740 --> 00:26:21.930 Gosh, a surprising number of I'll go back to our early example, 368 00:26:21.930 --> 00:26:26.890 a surprising number of the audience that I'm attracting right now, follows hub spot, 369 00:26:27.569 --> 00:26:32.049 I should reach out to their media team and see if they want to 370 00:26:32.089 --> 00:26:34.920 be a sponsor, and I should use this sparked Toro data to show them 371 00:26:34.960 --> 00:26:40.559 why they should sponsor my podcast. Like, Hey, hub spot team, 372 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:45.680 I noticed that a very high proportion of the people who pay attention to my 373 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:49.950 podcast are also visiting your website and engaging with your social channels. Here's the 374 00:26:51.029 --> 00:26:53.990 data. Would you want to be a sponsor? That's a hell of a 375 00:26:55.109 --> 00:26:59.069 pitch man. That does make that more compelling. Now I know if I 376 00:26:59.509 --> 00:27:03.420 recommended now, I do recommend our to our customers that run podcasts like you. 377 00:27:03.539 --> 00:27:07.779 Needed to have, like if someone approaches you and offers to sponse to 378 00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:11.420 your podcast, you should absolutely say Yes. But what? Well, almost 379 00:27:11.539 --> 00:27:15.730 always been over there. Someone should have like a business podcast, specifically WHO's 380 00:27:15.769 --> 00:27:18.009 trying to push their own stuff every once in a while on a good way. 381 00:27:18.609 --> 00:27:23.049 Should have another business come and then sponsor that podcast and have essentially have 382 00:27:23.170 --> 00:27:26.089 some kind of advertisement on it. It seems like, Oh, it's not 383 00:27:26.289 --> 00:27:30.519 pure anymore. I don't honor it's they still own it, but it's not. 384 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:33.559 It seems conflicting. What would you say to that customer? I mean 385 00:27:34.480 --> 00:27:38.079 look, I think it's absolutely up to every audience builder, to de Scott, 386 00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:41.240 decide how they want to monetize and what they want to do. But 387 00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:48.230 I'll be honest it in general, my experience has been that podcasts that have 388 00:27:48.589 --> 00:27:57.029 sponsors tend to be more about building the audience interest and about serving their audiences 389 00:27:57.309 --> 00:28:03.500 then those that are what I would say kind of connected directly to a business 390 00:28:03.579 --> 00:28:08.460 that they are trying to exclusively promote. I think that's why you can see 391 00:28:08.539 --> 00:28:14.089 folks like what's his name? A Louis Grenier, right from everyone hates marketers, 392 00:28:15.210 --> 00:28:18.410 like he just went out on his own with the everyone hates marketers podcast, 393 00:28:18.930 --> 00:28:21.970 and Louis has basically like said, Oh, this is you know, 394 00:28:22.369 --> 00:28:25.809 this is great, that it's on its own now and can start to generate 395 00:28:25.849 --> 00:28:29.440 its own of in you those kinds of things. I I I think that 396 00:28:29.640 --> 00:28:36.279 actually builds up more authenticity. Generally speaking, it's viewed as independent, as 397 00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:41.950 opposed to connected to a brand. Right, if the hub spot podcast says 398 00:28:42.029 --> 00:28:45.549 hub spot is great, you should buy hub spot, you're like yeah, 399 00:28:45.549 --> 00:28:52.029 yeah, yeah, right. But if Louie's everyone hates marketers says a guest 400 00:28:52.109 --> 00:28:53.670 from hub spot on there you're like, oh, maybe they are great. 401 00:28:55.349 --> 00:28:59.380 It's interesting to think about as a play on independence. Always thought about it 402 00:28:59.420 --> 00:29:02.980 as being at play on like having more credibility, because people, if people 403 00:29:02.980 --> 00:29:06.220 are willing to put money behind your podcast, that enough people must be listening 404 00:29:06.299 --> 00:29:08.539 to it that it kind of gives like a social proof kind of mechanism to 405 00:29:08.660 --> 00:29:12.690 I think I think both are true. Yeah, so only makes more for 406 00:29:12.809 --> 00:29:17.329 more reason to have sponsors or ads or something else in order to serve the 407 00:29:17.369 --> 00:29:19.329 audience and then, of course, serve yourself because you can pump that money 408 00:29:19.329 --> 00:29:22.849 back into better production or more episodes or something like that. Yeah, I 409 00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:27.039 mean I think there's there's a potential win win there. I just wouldn't be 410 00:29:27.799 --> 00:29:30.759 I don't want to push anyone who really doesn't want to have sponsors, but 411 00:29:32.319 --> 00:29:36.559 I don't think there's a great reason to say no. It does not create 412 00:29:36.640 --> 00:29:41.430 the negative perception that folks fear it might. Yeah, so we've talked a 413 00:29:41.430 --> 00:29:45.789 lot about a number of different things and I know you are a big proponent 414 00:29:45.829 --> 00:29:49.349 of getting on podcasts. You speak on a number of podcast in fact. 415 00:29:49.349 --> 00:29:52.900 How many? How many podcasts are you speaking on on like a weekly basis 416 00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:57.539 right now? Are you like a one and you know it's probably between two 417 00:29:57.619 --> 00:30:02.619 and four. Yeah, okay. Are you usually doing outreach or you just 418 00:30:02.740 --> 00:30:06.740 getting enough inbound request that you can kind of sustain doing all these shows? 419 00:30:06.740 --> 00:30:11.009 Let's see, I would say I am. I am getting a lot of 420 00:30:11.170 --> 00:30:17.650 inbound requests. However, a lot of that is nudged. So we mean. 421 00:30:18.250 --> 00:30:22.480 So what I mean is I don't I don't email podcasters and say hey, 422 00:30:22.480 --> 00:30:25.880 I want to be a guest on your show, but I often will 423 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:29.880 go to spark Toro, see that someone reaches an audience I want to reach, 424 00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:33.720 see that they have a podcast, start engaging with them on social send 425 00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.710 them an email. That is totally off topic, but realistically I know that 426 00:30:37.990 --> 00:30:41.829 many of those folks will then be like hey, would you ever want to 427 00:30:41.829 --> 00:30:44.789 be a guest? Absolutely right, I mean, that's a sorry, that 428 00:30:44.950 --> 00:30:48.349 is actually what happened, right. Yeah, it's nudged behavior. Right. 429 00:30:48.829 --> 00:30:52.779 I try not to make it overt and obvious and I'm not trying to like 430 00:30:52.339 --> 00:30:56.700 push myself, but I do know that by having these conversations, engaging with 431 00:30:56.779 --> 00:31:03.220 these folks, very often that leads to good opportunities of all kinds. Right, 432 00:31:03.740 --> 00:31:07.410 and for you might take a little less effort and for other people that 433 00:31:07.529 --> 00:31:11.289 relationship building just probably has to take a little bit longer. But it's not 434 00:31:11.410 --> 00:31:15.329 that you haven't been building relationship before that. You have by just putting out 435 00:31:15.410 --> 00:31:19.039 lots of content for well, like what two decades almost? Yeah, yeah, 436 00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:23.880 yeah, early in my career it took a ton of effort right every 437 00:31:25.039 --> 00:31:30.200 single you know, piece of amplification I could possibly get wash, you know, 438 00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:33.789 weeks, months of work, you know, very, very low response 439 00:31:33.869 --> 00:31:37.430 rates. And then over time, as my whatever profile grew, as I 440 00:31:37.549 --> 00:31:41.230 became more influential in the field and sort of people knew who I was and 441 00:31:42.029 --> 00:31:48.140 I got better at speaking and presenting and talking about all these subjects, all 442 00:31:48.180 --> 00:31:51.740 of those things became easier. That's what I would recommend to any audience builder. 443 00:31:52.099 --> 00:31:55.220 You want a flywheel model where, look, it's very, very difficult 444 00:31:55.259 --> 00:31:59.660 to earn your first few regular listeners, it's very, very difficult to get 445 00:31:59.700 --> 00:32:01.410 your first few guests, it's very, very difficult to get your first fewness. 446 00:32:01.529 --> 00:32:05.289 But every time you do it it gets a little bit easier and a 447 00:32:05.329 --> 00:32:08.250 little bit easier and a little bit easier, and so you're essentially building this 448 00:32:09.210 --> 00:32:14.890 flywheel that scales with decreasing friction over time makes a honest times. I'm a 449 00:32:14.890 --> 00:32:17.240 big fan of the flywheel model, only because I feel like it's kind of, 450 00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:20.480 I don't know, it's the best model there is right now. It's 451 00:32:20.519 --> 00:32:22.119 the only model that starts to pay you back for all the hard work and 452 00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:24.759 money you've put into it. Right, yeah, you, you need that 453 00:32:24.920 --> 00:32:30.069 compounding interest kind of model, right. Otherwise it's just, you know, 454 00:32:30.150 --> 00:32:32.789 the alternative is boulder pushing, where every single you know, whatever it is, 455 00:32:32.990 --> 00:32:37.390 every next group of a hundred people you want to reach costs the same 456 00:32:37.430 --> 00:32:42.430 amount of money or, depending on what Google and facebook up to, more 457 00:32:42.589 --> 00:32:47.259 money, right, and each new visit costs you the same amount of effort 458 00:32:47.299 --> 00:32:52.339 or energy. You don't want that. You want a model where as you 459 00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:58.059 grow your influence, your quality of interaction, engagement, the quality of the 460 00:32:58.140 --> 00:33:01.650 content you produce, you get increasing returns. I think the tough part about 461 00:33:01.650 --> 00:33:07.450 this Dand my opinion at least, is that it is not fast. Right. 462 00:33:07.609 --> 00:33:10.690 So what people think is, Oh, well, the fifth time I 463 00:33:10.849 --> 00:33:15.200 do this it'll be way easier than the first, and I just want to 464 00:33:15.240 --> 00:33:17.599 shake my head and be like no, no, no, the fifty, 465 00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:23.519 the five hundredth that's when it starts to get easier. And then something weird 466 00:33:23.519 --> 00:33:29.390 will happen where the five hundred and fifty is ten times better than the five 467 00:33:29.430 --> 00:33:31.190 hundred. Then you're like Whoa, Whoa, all of a sudden the curve 468 00:33:31.470 --> 00:33:37.470 is going from gradual increase to exponential increase. What's happening? That's when you're 469 00:33:37.509 --> 00:33:43.019 really getting the return on investment. There and that flywheel spinning. But because 470 00:33:43.259 --> 00:33:46.420 that early, those early stages, it's so hard to measure that improvement and 471 00:33:46.619 --> 00:33:51.460 to see it, people give up. It's just like, you know what 472 00:33:51.500 --> 00:33:53.700 it's just like. It's like going to the gym. I mean, obviously 473 00:33:53.740 --> 00:33:59.329 you can tell from looking at me I've never worked out, but you know 474 00:33:59.410 --> 00:34:01.529 I have like the tiniest shoulders of anyone in my height. It's ridiculous. 475 00:34:02.490 --> 00:34:07.170 Shirts just hang off me. But you know when you like if you go 476 00:34:07.289 --> 00:34:10.599 to the gym and you start working out, it feels so frustrating, like 477 00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:15.199 you make no progress for forever, forever. You're like, I can barely 478 00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:17.679 lift five pounds more than left, you know whatever, a month ago, 479 00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:21.599 three months ago, and then all of a sudden it feels like, Oh, 480 00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:23.909 Whoa, I'm getting stronger and you look at yourself in the mirror and 481 00:34:23.909 --> 00:34:27.670 you're like, Oh, I've look a little different and I feel a little 482 00:34:27.750 --> 00:34:31.550 better. And but those first three to six months it feels like you're doing 483 00:34:31.670 --> 00:34:35.389 nothing. You know, after a while you actually want to go to the 484 00:34:35.429 --> 00:34:37.980 gym's it feels good. It's more fun than actually sitting on the couch and 485 00:34:39.219 --> 00:34:44.500 just surfing facebook or something, and facebook anymore. But it's interesting. I 486 00:34:44.539 --> 00:34:49.099 think about the flywheel of podcasting. I know there's definitely a fly wheel blogging 487 00:34:49.139 --> 00:34:52.090 and SEO's a fly wheel of social media. PODCASTING as its own little fly 488 00:34:52.170 --> 00:34:54.929 wheel of sorts. And you get started and you know no one wants to 489 00:34:54.969 --> 00:34:58.610 be the first couple of guests, but you know you get your friend, 490 00:34:58.650 --> 00:35:00.969 your best customer, as your co workers on and it starts to build momentum. 491 00:35:01.809 --> 00:35:05.449 Never once in a while you get a bigger and bigger guest and you 492 00:35:05.570 --> 00:35:07.719 get more audience. You know, the better you do, and on the 493 00:35:07.800 --> 00:35:12.159 fly wheel starts to go as the bigger the audience you have, the bigger 494 00:35:12.440 --> 00:35:15.400 the guest you can bring on, and the bigger the guests you can bring 495 00:35:15.480 --> 00:35:16.639 on, the easier it is to get a little bit of audience right and 496 00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:21.239 on and on it goes. So we're certainly feeling a little bit of that 497 00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:24.670 momentum with BTB growth. Now, I think you makes a little get easier. 498 00:35:24.750 --> 00:35:28.630 Get better, right, you get better at the sort of all the 499 00:35:28.710 --> 00:35:35.980 aspects of the the podcasting you know, the technology that you're using gets better. 500 00:35:36.099 --> 00:35:38.619 You get better using it, your equipment gets better, you get better 501 00:35:38.619 --> 00:35:46.179 at figuring out your voice into nation. You get better at removing disfluencies from 502 00:35:46.219 --> 00:35:52.570 your speaking style. You get better at framing questions and interviewing people and digging 503 00:35:52.570 --> 00:35:59.449 into details and and then you get better at like extracting one of my favorite 504 00:35:59.489 --> 00:36:01.730 things that podcast do, a few of them have done, is they'll take 505 00:36:01.849 --> 00:36:08.559 sort of very small thirty two, forty second clips and they'll annotate them with 506 00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:13.119 captions and then they'll put that up with like a little bit of a compelling 507 00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:15.440 video, whether it's you video capture of the guest or whatever it is, 508 00:36:16.360 --> 00:36:22.070 on the social networks, right, and so then that starts to get picked 509 00:36:22.110 --> 00:36:25.349 up and it can it can spiral right like you get better and better at 510 00:36:25.389 --> 00:36:30.309 all this stuff. Now this reminds me of a conversation that I often have 511 00:36:30.469 --> 00:36:36.059 on social there's always a debate of quantity versus quality. I usually take the 512 00:36:36.139 --> 00:36:38.059 side that it's kind of like you can do quality, but if you're only 513 00:36:38.139 --> 00:36:42.699 posting once a week or once a month, like, you're not going to 514 00:36:42.739 --> 00:36:45.420 quite get the momentum you need, essentially with your fly wheel. So I'm 515 00:36:45.460 --> 00:36:50.809 usually been pushing back on like the quality debate, pushing for quantity, because 516 00:36:50.889 --> 00:36:53.130 sometimes you don't even know a quality as until you've gotten too episode one hundred 517 00:36:53.289 --> 00:36:59.849 right. Where do you kind of sit on that quality versus quantity debas is? 518 00:37:00.730 --> 00:37:02.800 I feel like this question is a plant because I have a so I 519 00:37:02.840 --> 00:37:10.199 have a blog post sitting in my drafts at Spark Toro that's like the quality 520 00:37:10.320 --> 00:37:16.750 versus quantity debate. I think the title is it's a false choice. Right 521 00:37:16.909 --> 00:37:22.909 and and my reason behind this is the way that I got better from a 522 00:37:22.949 --> 00:37:30.539 quality perspective was to do a lot of quantity. Right that that essentially two 523 00:37:30.659 --> 00:37:37.059 things happen when you produce a lot of content or produce a lot of episodes, 524 00:37:37.099 --> 00:37:43.340 whatever it is you're making. One is serendipitously, some of those resonate 525 00:37:43.500 --> 00:37:46.449 for some reason, like they just hit at the right time with the right 526 00:37:46.489 --> 00:37:52.050 audience in the right ways and they sail across the web and they you know, 527 00:37:52.170 --> 00:37:55.090 to use a better for like of a better word, like go viral, 528 00:37:55.369 --> 00:38:01.480 whatever it is. The other thing that happens is you progressively get better 529 00:38:01.599 --> 00:38:08.760 and better at it. So that combination means that, even even though it 530 00:38:09.000 --> 00:38:15.989 feels like you could put more effort into each piece or you could put or 531 00:38:15.070 --> 00:38:22.349 you could produce more pieces with less effort individually, in a way that the 532 00:38:22.550 --> 00:38:28.300 options are I could do both or either and and those work right. I 533 00:38:28.579 --> 00:38:31.139 don't think it's a one or the other. You can produce a lot of 534 00:38:31.219 --> 00:38:36.420 little things that are short and easy for you. You can put a ton 535 00:38:36.460 --> 00:38:38.380 of effort into some big pieces if you have a good feeling about them, 536 00:38:38.900 --> 00:38:42.690 and you can learn from both of those. And the more you produce, 537 00:38:42.769 --> 00:38:45.650 the better you'll get at it and the more you have that opportunity for that 538 00:38:45.769 --> 00:38:49.170 serendipitous sort of viral hit. It makes so much sense. I mean, 539 00:38:49.250 --> 00:38:52.090 to get to even to get to quality, you have to publish a lot, 540 00:38:52.690 --> 00:38:53.889 or at least practice a lot. And Yeah, you know, your 541 00:38:53.929 --> 00:38:58.960 first one is as good qualities you could have gotten. Yeah, it's always 542 00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:04.000 better published and then moving on to the next one rather than nitpicking over it 543 00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:07.519 for so long, because you really have to count the cost of trying to 544 00:39:07.559 --> 00:39:10.230 get to post one five hundred right, right. I can't just hope on 545 00:39:10.349 --> 00:39:13.869 one post a week. You really have to think like no, I need 546 00:39:13.909 --> 00:39:16.429 to just get to a lot and I don't want to produce a ton of 547 00:39:16.510 --> 00:39:20.590 crap, but I do want to try to get to more so that I 548 00:39:20.630 --> 00:39:23.699 could learn and grow and get better and better. Yes, so we've had 549 00:39:23.699 --> 00:39:28.420 a number of different topics so far and I probably need to wrap it up 550 00:39:28.460 --> 00:39:30.739 now, but I want to give you one last question of likes. There 551 00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:37.019 anything left for be to be podcaster specifically that we didn't quite cover across how 552 00:39:37.059 --> 00:39:40.849 to grow an audience. One of the ways that I think about growing a 553 00:39:40.969 --> 00:39:49.610 podcast of audience is absolutely I'm sure you've experienced this as well, bringing other 554 00:39:49.849 --> 00:39:54.400 people's podcast audiences to Europe, right, and that that means being a guest. 555 00:39:54.440 --> 00:40:00.639 Right. So we talked a little bit about how I'm doing specifically that, 556 00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:07.349 but this is a very useful tactic that I would encourage and to do 557 00:40:07.630 --> 00:40:10.869 that. One of the things that I would suggest is you don't just want 558 00:40:10.909 --> 00:40:19.510 to sort of be known for your podcast, you also want some personal association 559 00:40:19.789 --> 00:40:23.860 and brand, personal brand association with an area of expertise. That is a 560 00:40:24.260 --> 00:40:30.739 great way to get invited onto other people's shows and build up your audience for 561 00:40:30.860 --> 00:40:37.769 people who come to you for that topic and and for that unique insight that 562 00:40:37.889 --> 00:40:40.769 you can bring to any subject matter. Right. So I can talk about 563 00:40:43.010 --> 00:40:45.650 politics, I can talk about, you know, racial issues in the United 564 00:40:45.690 --> 00:40:47.929 States. I had a couple of podcast that I did about that, which 565 00:40:47.929 --> 00:40:54.000 is deeply uncomfortable and challenging but probably also very worthwhile, and it is. 566 00:40:54.679 --> 00:40:59.880 You know, it's intense, but it does expose me to another larger audience. 567 00:40:59.880 --> 00:41:02.599 But I'm talking about it from a marketing perspective, right, and that 568 00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:09.309 sort of niche expertise means that I get those opportunities. I would encourage podcasters 569 00:41:09.349 --> 00:41:14.429 to do the same. Right. It's not it's not just about creating a 570 00:41:14.469 --> 00:41:19.219 great podcast, it's what are you known for? Where do you have expertise, 571 00:41:19.340 --> 00:41:23.659 so that you can use other people's platforms, podcasts or video series? 572 00:41:23.699 --> 00:41:28.539 Right. I would encourage podcasters, to the degree that they can or want 573 00:41:28.539 --> 00:41:34.130 to, to also look at Youtube channels as a way to broadcast themselves and 574 00:41:34.170 --> 00:41:37.570 amplify and get opportunities. This is something, conveniently, that sparked to row 575 00:41:37.690 --> 00:41:40.690 does so right. There's there's two tabs right next to each other, youtube 576 00:41:40.730 --> 00:41:45.289 channels and podcasts. That will show you what any audience pays attention to. 577 00:41:45.449 --> 00:41:50.599 I would tend to build relationships and pitch both of those. For infrequent listeners. 578 00:41:50.800 --> 00:41:53.239 Youtubes actually, I think, the second most listen to platform, or 579 00:41:53.400 --> 00:41:58.880 podcast specifically listening podcast just on Youtube. So when you were important, that 580 00:41:58.960 --> 00:42:00.869 just came out and you're like, wow, people are watching podcasts, and 581 00:42:01.030 --> 00:42:05.070 it's true, they are watching deadcast, even if it's in a Roman's not 582 00:42:05.150 --> 00:42:07.630 the only podcast people are watching. Yeah, it's a convenient platform, like 583 00:42:07.710 --> 00:42:13.269 it really really is. I I will often, even if a youtube video 584 00:42:13.389 --> 00:42:15.539 is a video, I will often listen to it and not watch it. 585 00:42:16.380 --> 00:42:20.219 Yep, if only they didn't charge to be able to listen to it with 586 00:42:20.380 --> 00:42:22.019 having the phone screen off. I think is the big thing holding it back 587 00:42:22.059 --> 00:42:25.739 a bit. It's behind the pay wall and you're like the more people would 588 00:42:25.739 --> 00:42:29.900 spend more time on your platform and probably do audio ads or something if you 589 00:42:29.940 --> 00:42:34.809 would just let them listen to things with the screen off. To come back 590 00:42:34.849 --> 00:42:37.610 to your last thought, essentially I think what you're saying is they should become 591 00:42:37.730 --> 00:42:40.929 somewhat of a thought leader, even if it's only a micro in a micro 592 00:42:42.010 --> 00:42:45.440 level. It's Cringey as that word is. Yeah, yeah, and I 593 00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:47.639 don't, I don't necessarily, I mean all the associations with thought leader like 594 00:42:47.800 --> 00:42:52.719 suggest that you have to be, I don't know, doing other kinds of 595 00:42:52.760 --> 00:42:57.199 things that I don't necessarily wouldn't necessarily suggest a sort of like the word influencer, 596 00:42:57.239 --> 00:42:58.789 right, like, right, don't? You don't have to be an 597 00:42:58.909 --> 00:43:01.469 influencer and, like whatever, take off your clothes on instagram. You don't 598 00:43:01.469 --> 00:43:05.710 have to be a thought leader and, like whatever, stand on a Ted 599 00:43:05.750 --> 00:43:09.110 x stage in your city. Right, like. You can build up your 600 00:43:09.190 --> 00:43:17.739 expertise simply by amplifying content around that, by producing and sharing content around that, 601 00:43:17.940 --> 00:43:23.980 by having strong, especially be to be strong data back to opinions, 602 00:43:24.260 --> 00:43:30.250 and sometimes controversial ones, about a topic and sharing those thoughtfully and intelligently. 603 00:43:30.409 --> 00:43:37.130 That can build up that recognition of expertise. Occasionally producing a blog post on 604 00:43:37.210 --> 00:43:40.289 your own site or other people's, if if you're good at writing, doing 605 00:43:40.409 --> 00:43:45.800 episodes where you're exclusively just taking hey, I'm going to do five minutes. 606 00:43:45.960 --> 00:43:50.079 You know, five minute episode on this particular thing that happened in the news 607 00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:52.559 around our B to be subject, and then I'm going to turn that into 608 00:43:52.679 --> 00:43:57.989 a micro video, right, that has captions that can sit on twitter and 609 00:43:58.070 --> 00:44:02.510 Linkedin and Youtube and facebook, etc. Those are all good ways to build 610 00:44:02.510 --> 00:44:07.070 that up, and you don't have to do the classic thoughts are eating thing 611 00:44:07.230 --> 00:44:13.300 right. You can just essentially be an expert or get expertise first and just 612 00:44:13.420 --> 00:44:16.340 contribute original ideas that help. A lot of that is a lot of that 613 00:44:16.500 --> 00:44:21.380 is consuming the content in that world. Yeah, right. So, like 614 00:44:22.059 --> 00:44:23.769 you know, if you have an area of expertise, you can plug in. 615 00:44:24.369 --> 00:44:28.010 You can plug that ASPARKTOR, you can go to Google and go to 616 00:44:28.010 --> 00:44:31.289 the social now works right, find the sources that people are paying attention up 617 00:44:31.329 --> 00:44:35.849 to in that world, pay attention to them yourselves, subscribe to them, 618 00:44:36.329 --> 00:44:38.599 follow them, read them, consume them, digest them and then be able 619 00:44:38.639 --> 00:44:46.000 to offer a thoughtful, concise, unique, potentially controversial opinions about that stuff 620 00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:53.829 right, based on your knowledge and your reasoning. Perfect it's certainly a hard 621 00:44:53.909 --> 00:44:57.630 thing, but a worthwhile thing, and if you have a podcast, you're 622 00:44:57.670 --> 00:45:00.230 probably already doing it by inviting people onto your podcast. And then spy speaking 623 00:45:00.269 --> 00:45:04.349 yourself. You know the thing about stuff that's easy and hard, Dan I. 624 00:45:05.309 --> 00:45:09.019 In my experience, if something is easy, it is often not that 625 00:45:09.219 --> 00:45:15.019 worthwhile to do and it does not help you stand out. But if something 626 00:45:15.179 --> 00:45:20.219 is very difficult, very challenging, there tends to be a lot of value 627 00:45:20.420 --> 00:45:25.250 in being good at that thing. Absolutely, I find that it's not challenging 628 00:45:25.369 --> 00:45:29.289 and that it's really difficult for thirty minutes. It's challenging in that it just 629 00:45:29.409 --> 00:45:31.409 takes a lot of time and showing up every day for a long period of 630 00:45:31.449 --> 00:45:34.809 time. Right, it's not hard to write a blog post. It's hard 631 00:45:34.849 --> 00:45:37.800 to write a thousand of them, right, or a thousand podcast episodes or 632 00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:43.599 different things like that. So hard and that's just a long road. Yeah, 633 00:45:43.800 --> 00:45:46.519 RAN, working people learned more from you. These days. You've moved 634 00:45:46.559 --> 00:45:51.269 your blog around a few different times work in they follow you on social and 635 00:45:51.309 --> 00:45:57.710 and read about what you're up to. Yeah, the best place to follow 636 00:45:57.829 --> 00:46:00.550 me for sort of short updates I'm most active on twitter, where I'm at 637 00:46:00.630 --> 00:46:05.179 Rand Fish. And of course, folks are welcome to give us Fark Toro 638 00:46:06.179 --> 00:46:08.340 a try. It's free to try out. You can run about ten searches 639 00:46:08.500 --> 00:46:14.300 some months for free. We have like a forever free plan and I blog 640 00:46:14.500 --> 00:46:17.420 at spark to rocom's blog. Fantastic. Thank you so much for joining us 641 00:46:17.500 --> 00:46:20.769 on the show today. Yeah, my blead, with thanks for at me 642 00:46:20.849 --> 00:46:28.289 down back. Hey, everybody, logan with sweet fish here. If you're 643 00:46:28.289 --> 00:46:31.050 a regular listener of BB growth, you know that I'm one of the cohosts 644 00:46:31.050 --> 00:46:34.960 of the show, but you may not know that I also head up the 645 00:46:35.039 --> 00:46:37.599 sales team here at sweetfish. So, for those of you in sales or 646 00:46:37.639 --> 00:46:42.119 sales ops, I wanted to take a second to share something that's made us 647 00:46:42.199 --> 00:46:45.800 insanely more efficient lately. Our team has been using lead Iq for the past 648 00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:51.510 few months and what used to take us four hours gathering contact data now takes 649 00:46:51.510 --> 00:46:54.630 us only one, or seventy five percent more efficient. We're able to move 650 00:46:54.789 --> 00:47:00.699 faster withoutbound prospecting and organizing our campaigns is so much easier than before. I'd 651 00:47:00.739 --> 00:47:05.500 highly suggest you guys check out lead Iq as well. You can check them 652 00:47:05.500 --> 00:47:15.090 out at lead iqcom. That's Elle a d iqcom and sweetfish. We're on 653 00:47:15.170 --> 00:47:20.769 a mission to create the most helpful content on the Internet for every job, 654 00:47:20.929 --> 00:47:24.690 function and industry on the planet for the BB Marketing Industry. This show is 655 00:47:24.769 --> 00:47:29.369 how we're executing on that mission. If you know a marketing leader that would 656 00:47:29.369 --> 00:47:32.159 be an awesome guest for this podcast. Shoot me a text message. Don't 657 00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:36.199 call me because I don't answer. I no numbers, but text me at 658 00:47:36.280 --> 00:47:38.440 four hundred and seven for and I know three and three, two eight. 659 00:47:38.760 --> 00:47:42.760 Just shoot me their name, maybe a link to their linkedin profile, and 660 00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:45.789 I'd love to check them out to see if we can get them in the 661 00:47:45.829 --> 00:47:46.070 show. Thanks a lot.