Transcript
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my name is Benji Block. We're excited
today to be joined by rex and James
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guys, how you doing? Fantastic man,
this is gonna be a blast, I'm feeling
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it, we're gonna go through some
predictions here, they're gonna be good.
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Yes, so we got 11.5 months or so before
us, 2022 pretty much a blank slate. And
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we're gonna have each of you bring to
predictions to the table, excited to
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hear your thoughts and where you think
things are headed James, let's just
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kick it off right with you. What's the
prediction you have as you look at the
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year ahead. Yeah, so I think we're
going to start to see niche media
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properties and communities like
marketing, millennials, peak community
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rev genius, D GMG, maybe even pavilion.
We're going to see one of those major
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marketing communities get acquired
probably by a software company. I just
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think it's too smart to go. Like it
takes years and years and years to
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build these audiences and companies
that have raised lots of cash, it just
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makes a lot of sense for them to go and
acquire those audiences. The trick will
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be for them to still continue to treat
those communities like the way that the
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brand's treated them to build them up
to where they are today. So I love
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seeing what outreach is doing with the
sales hacker community. It's not a
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pitch fest, they're still continuing to
run sales hacker like an independent
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community, they obviously own access to
it. So there's massive leverage that
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they have by being able to own a
community of their ideal buyers,
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interesting. So when you think about
that, when you're kind of looking at
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the landscape and seeing other people,
what excites you about the move towards
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community and these sort of niche
groups. And honestly, I think there's a
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lot of room for innovation within
community. So yes, I think communities
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are going to start getting acquired,
but I don't even think we've begun to
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scratch the surface in terms of
creativity with how people are building
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communities. So what we're doing this
year, what rex and his team are doing
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this year is really doubling down on
what we're calling marketing squads.
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One too many communities are great or
can be great because they're one too
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many. I mean, there's not a whole lot
of value in it for me to hear one
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person particularly talked to the
masses. I can do that by following them
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on linkedin. But what we're trying to
do with marketing squads is actually
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similar. I think Pavilion has the best
shot at making a pivot into this model.
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And not to say that this model is is
the only way to do it, but we're
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building micro communities. So by the
end of this year, hopefully we'll have
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hundreds of people in these monthly one
hour micro communities that meet with
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and we're excluding everybody but
director level and above in house B two
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B marketing leaders. So there's not
gonna be agency folks in there. This
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isn't gonna be a pitch fest. And we're
putting 10 like minded individuals.
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Director VP level marketing leaders in
the same zoom call, inviting 10 of them
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to, to be in that zoom call once a
month. And that group will last six
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months at the end of the six months,
people can say, hey, this was super
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valuable, I want to do this again or
hey, I'm out and we'll have a slack
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community or some sort of community
that's more, one too many that bolts
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onto that. We'll do some in person
events as part of that. But as you know,
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we're not necessarily building this for
it to get acquired. But over the next
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234 years when we've got hundreds or
maybe even thousands of people in these
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micro communities that we are directly
influencing. It just makes a lot of
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sense for a software company trying to
sell the marketing leaders to come and
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try to buy our community. And so as a
business builder, I just think that's
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really powerful. I mean, we're, we're
building a show and B two B growth that
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I think 5, 10 years from now easily
acquire a ble asset, we're building a
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community that's an easily acquire a
ble asset on top of our service
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business, which is also an acquire a
ble asset. And so I think there's
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massive value in building community
with intimacy. And I don't see that in
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a lot of the one too many type
communities, it feels more like
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audience building than it does.
Community building an audience building
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is great. We're trying to do that too.
We've got a director of audience growth
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that is bullish on that and we hired
him to be bullish on that. So uh not
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not at all downplaying or just a
different, yeah, it's just, it's just a
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different type of community, but again,
we don't have the market cornered on
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how to build a great community. I think
what chris walker is doing at refined
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labs with those weekly calls that he's
doing, it's hard to argue that he's not
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building a legitimate community of
really, really sharp B two B marketers
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over there as well. I really like the
way we're doing it and I really like
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the way we're thinking about it. And I
think in the groups that we've already
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done up to this point, I think they've
added massive value to people. And so
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we're ready to double down, We just
hired someone to focus on that full
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time, um that comes from a marketing
leadership background. The first guy
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that we had running those didn't come
from a marketing background came from a
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community background and what we
learned over the eight months that he
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was leading the charge is that having
someone that understands marketing,
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facilitating those micro communities Is
actually really, really important. So
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we're making those groups better going
into 2022, not that, you know, I'm
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saying we're going to get acquired by
the end of the year, but I think you're
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gonna see a community get acquired by
the end of the year. I like that
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prediction and the value in the back
and forth I think is something a lot of
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people are realizing because in the one
to many there's a lot of information
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given, which is great but you can get
that from so many different streams
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commodity. Right? Exactly. Well yeah,
in some sense it's becoming a commodity
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where people are then going okay, where
are we taking these conversations
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smaller where there's just a few people
and there's a lot of back and forth so
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we can really dive into our specific
situations and the solutions we're
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looking for the things we were thinking
about and it gets hyper specific which
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is Value added to the people in the
groups and then obviously as a company
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huge value added that you're the one
facilitating. So I love that one. James
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Rex anything you want to add to that
before you give us your first
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prediction. Yeah, I want to double
click on something in there that was
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kind of behind what James is talking
about that. Maybe some marketers
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haven't thought about in some marketing
leaders the kind of hidden value of a
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community, it's not just that now you
have people who are on the frontlines
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like they're your ideal customer,
you're meeting with them, they're
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hearing about your brand. Like that's
great. You're on the tip of their
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tongue when they think about the
problem that you solve. Right?
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Fantastic. There is a hidden benefit to
content marketing. Think about the
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average content marketing approaches.
We pick topics, we think people care
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about that relate to our product and
then we write content. The secret
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benefit that James and I've just been
kind of uncovering from what
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communities are gonna be for us is that
we are in micro communities where
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they're controlling the conversation.
Our people who show up from our team
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are just listening. They're just
they're facilitating conversation but
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they're not picking the topics, they're
not sharing all the advice, They're not
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acting as experts, they are simply
facilitating. So what we get out of
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that as a side benefit that I think is
really smart for software companies who
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are going to acquire these communities
in the future is going to be that you
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have a very short feedback loop on
what's really, you know, top of mind
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for your buyers like what do they
actually care about today? Not what did
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your head of content marketing think
they cared about? There's a gap there
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and it's powerful and and we're all
talking about this lately. How much the
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market is changing. How rapidly because
of Covid because of other like, you
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know, we're digitizing everything,
we're making everything online and so
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it's changing so quickly. What's our
feedback loop like with our audience.
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Well, it's try and build an audience
while simultaneously trying to serve
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that audience, And then the feedback
you're getting is weeks, months years
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later, like, you're getting that so
late, where we could put that on the
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front of the feedback loop, is them
telling us what to write and then we
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share it with those communities, they
feel served and heard, and then they're
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telling us, Yeah, that makes sense, or
no, I disagree with you and we continue
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to learn much, much faster. So the
community way behind that, not just
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that there, Oh, hey, when I think of
podcast, I think of Sweet Fish, oh, hey,
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when I think of Marc and I think of
Dave Gerhard, like that's not the
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entire thing. Now, Dave Gerhart knows
how to write a million pieces of
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content if he's using those communities
in that way. Yeah, and I would imagine
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that's why he's putting out as much
content as he is, and that's why Chris
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says that he's able to put out as much
content as he is, because he's
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literally got these weekly demanding
lives that he's doing, where he's
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hearing people's feedback live and then
turning it into content, what what I
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think is something that we're going to
be doing this next year, that I'm
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really excited about is, you know, as
you and I were x, we're talking in our
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one on one the other day, it's like,
how can we make sure that Diana who's
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gonna be running these groups is
getting those insights back into the
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business. And one of the ideas we had
was we need to start recording B two B
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growth episodes with her once a week,
you know me, you dan Diana like just
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jamming once a week on a topic that she
chooses based on the conversations that
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are happening in those squads. Because
those are real time things that we as
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you know, as a service business, we
don't necessarily, you know, we don't
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have firsthand experience of what sas
companies are dealing with or what
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other verticals are dealing with. But
by Diana being leading those groups and
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facilitating those conversations, she's
gonna have her finger on the pulse of
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what really matters, going back to your
point earlier. So that's one way to do
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it. Like take those insights and then
inject it back into your content when
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we do long form pillar content through
B two B growth. Around these topics
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that Diana is gonna be facilitating for
us on BBB growth. Like that now becomes
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micro content that we share on linkedin.
It's gonna fuel the three things
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newsletter that I write every day.
We're gonna try to share that as much
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as we can with our existing team so
that we understand our buyers better
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than any other service provider in the
game and that's ultimately what's going
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to lead us to the results that we think
we can achieve. Yeah, it all feeds back
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into each other, which is wonderful
from a content perspective, because if
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you want to get rid of commodity
content, like we do, you got to know
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exactly what people are thinking about
right now, the community to do that?
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Yeah, I feel like it's almost trite to
say you have to understand your
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audience, everybody like that's
commodity, everybody's saying that, but
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the game is trying to figure out how do
you understand your audience? And I
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think we're tapping into something
that's a really effective way to do
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that, yep, let's go to rex what is a
prediction you have as you look At this
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next 12 months, I feel like this is
cheating because anything you see on
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linkedin these days, right? Anything
from maybe the hot marketers that
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you're seeing out there is something
that's going to be a leading indicator
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of what's to come in the future years,
especially depending on the industry.
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So what I could say is, oh, content
marketing is going to be a thing, and
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you're like, oh, that's that's been
around for decades, right? Yes, but I
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have good friends who work in
industries where all this stuff like it
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still doesn't happen, they still not
even do they get their content, they
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don't even have content to gate, they
only have a lead for them, like they
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have a contact us page that's as good
as it gets, there's no call to action,
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I mean, so when we start talking about
predictions, I'm thinking along the
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lines of, okay, what's gonna be popular
over the next year versus like what are
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people actually going to be doing like
across the broad spectrum of the market?
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Because it's just, it's impossible to
say one thing. But I think what we're
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going to see is a surge of creative one
off B two B marketing campaigns as
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opposed to the stale ongoing
promotional vehicles, like your typical
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newsletter webinar series, like the
stuff that gets so old and we consider
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tried and true in some ways, but like
it's start to kind of, it's starting to
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taper off in its popularity. But the
reason I think that it's going to be
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more popular to have these creative one
off campaigns is because they're
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getting enough attention on linkedin
that the executives at the top level
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who have the budget are gonna say, hey,
why aren't we on Tiktok, Hey, why
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aren't we doing something like this?
And dropping a link to a video they
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really like, that's the kind of stuff
we're gonna see more and more. And so
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we're actually gonna be incentivized as
B two B marketing leaders to go and do
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that, which is the thing we probably
wanted to do since we first saw the
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first clever video from one of our
favorite influencers on linkedin, right?
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But we've been begging for it and
nobody's really hearing our cries, I
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think we're gonna start to get it from
the top down now, instead of us having
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to come from the bottom up the way I
heard it put yesterday in a
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conversation I was having is that in B
two B, we've been looking at our cousin
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over in B two C and feeling really
jealous and now is the move where it's
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like, no, this is our time and I
totally agree. I think we're gonna see
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that sort of evolution and B to B where
people realize the power in that sort
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of marketing where it's just this
powerful, like you said, maybe it's a
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one off campaign, but something that
moves us away from the stale, this is
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what tried and true everyone's doing to
something new and fresh rex being over
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marketing. What excites you the most
about that move? I mean, my favorite
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part about it is that it requires that
people determine whether they want
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quick attention or they want affinity.
I learned that that phrasing from J
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Kenzo because the difference is if you
want eyeballs right now, it's the same
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thing. Like no matter how clever your
pitches you're still producing content
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that is leading to something that like
it's a mismatch of expectations, You
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watch this really funny video, you read
a really great, you know meme that
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somebody puts out from their corporate
page and then you go to their website
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and it's boring crap, right? But if you
want affinity you have to think about
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who your brand is. And then the
creativity is applying not just what's
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hot, but what's hot and what relates
and is relevant to our audience and
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what relates and is relevant to our
brand in a way that only we can say we
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talked about commodity content before
and I think this is the key, it's
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exciting to me because we want to stand
out and everybody says they want to
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stand out, but we really think that
there's going to only be a few
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companies that are willing to combine
all that effort together and make those
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campaigns a real success. They're gonna
get a lot of companies are going to
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find that they do these really cool
campaigns and they spend a lot of time
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and money and effort. They get a lot of
eyeballs and it's a flash in the pan
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and nobody sticks, nobody stays around
and they come to your website and still
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the same amount of people are
converting Right, still that 3-10% of
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her in the buying window, that's it.
Nothing special about it. So instead
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they're putting out those boring
promotional vehicles, you know, they've
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got those newsletters, they've got
those kind of stand by things that
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people can opt into, fewer people are
opting into those, we've got more
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control from Apple and google and
everybody filtering out all that
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content anyway, so I think that's
that's where we're headed and it's just
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gonna make the brands that are willing
to do the hard work of combining what's
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popular with what actually resonates
with their audience from their brand,
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that's going to make them stand out
much more clearly. I was thinking this
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exact same thing, I was like, Brexit
feels kind of like a cheat code
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whenever you think about predictions
because there are brands doing this. I
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mean the way metadata executed that
virtual event was super smart. I mean
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they promoted that thing for like three
or four months and really creative ways
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leading up to that event and they got a
lot of people show up to it and a lot
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of people talking about them that
otherwise never would have. You're
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seeing folks like Todd Klaus sort of
find labs, do these hilarious sketches
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on Tiktok videos that are performing
like crazy on linkedin. Dave your
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heart's been doing this stuff for a
while marketing millennials, Daniel
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Murray has been doing this stuff for a
year, year and a half now. And so it's
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exactly like what you said, these
senior level executives can't get on
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linkedin without seeing this stuff and
they're not stupid. So they're going to
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be talking to the marketing team's
about why the heck are we not trying to
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do this, the game will be, can you
sustain it? And so what I love so much
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about what we're doing, we've created a
role for the creator inside of our
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marketing team and Emily Emily brady,
formerly cabrito is playing that role
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for us. So not only is she leading our
evangelist program and helping coach
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and facilitate content creation across
15 or 20 different people on our team
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on linkedin, she's also going to be
overseeing these creative campaigns
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that we're trying to do every month.
I'm super excited about the one, I'm
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actually filming a gift for one of them
later today and it's gonna be a blast.
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But but this is a lot of thought that's
going into these. I mean, we're we're
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thinking about these campaigns weeks
and weeks in advance and we're trying
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to execute them consistently at least
once a month knowing that if we can
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make a big splash once a month on
linkedin, in addition to the other
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content that we're creating across our
team, it's going to increase our
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visibility in front of the people that
we want to know who we are. I have an
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episode coming up where I'm going to
talk to Emily about some of what she's
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learning and her world. She's doing
some Tiktok stuff for us as well and
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we're gonna talk all about that and her
findings so far and the questions she's
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asking, which again, we're to talk a
lot about this on B two B growth, but
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we want to learn the mindset that we
need, right? So it's not just, here's
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the solutions Emily's found she's
asking a lot of really intriguing
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questions right now because she's
iterating and that's the perfect time
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to catch somebody and start asking them
questions because they are just going
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internally and you can tell Emily's in
that space and I love it. So rex,
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that's a great one. It is a cheat code,
but that's okay. It's still counts. It
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is definitely a good prediction James.
Let's go back to you man, what's your
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second prediction moving forward into
the next 11 months? I think that you're
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gonna start seeing progressive brands.
So the metadata of the world, the
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refined labs already seeing it to a
certain extent. But I think you're
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gonna be seeing progressive brands,
start developing unique premises or
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hooks, like the Gerhard calls them for
each of their content channels. So the
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hook for someone's newsletter, The
reason you're going to subscribe to
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that newsletter is going to be
different than the reason you're going
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to follow them on linkedin or the
reason you're going to follow them on
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Tiktok. So you're starting to see like
panda doc and chili piper, They're
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using Tiktok very much as a recruiting
tool. So when you are watching their
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stuff, it's like, it's fun. It's silly.
It's Goofy, but it's a lot of, it's,
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it's showing off their culture. They
clearly are using a channel for a
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different purpose than what they're
using. There are other channels for now.
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I don't think that they fully, really
fleshed out and refined a premise or a
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hook there. But I think you're going to
start seeing that one thing that, that
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we're thinking about doing at the media
company that I started last year, Young
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married christian is thinking about our
email newsletter as a completely
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separate hook. So the hook for our
emails being created date nights. If
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you want to create a date night emailed
to your inbox once a week, sign up for
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our newsletter. But the reason you're
going to follow us on instagram is
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completely different. We're asking
really intriguing chris questions about
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what it means to be a young married
christian in our instagram stories and
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then we're sharing the answers of the
instagram DM replies that we're getting
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with the rest of our followers in that
story. So it's a reason the reason that
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you're consuming our stuff on instagram
is different than the reason that you
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would be signing up for our email list
and I think we have to do the work of
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developing those hooks and premises at
a content channel level as opposed to
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just thinking about it as one thing. So
the reason you subscribe to my podcast
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very different than the reason you're
going to get on my email list. It can't
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just be, hey, get on my email list so
that we can send you updates about the
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podcast and doesn't work anymore. Sorry,
I can just subscribe to your podcast
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00:19:45.350 --> 00:19:48.130
wherever I listen to podcasts and
that's how I'm going to find out your
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podcast dropped. I think we've gotten
lazy and we lack creativity in terms of
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premise development with our content
channels and I think you're gonna start
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to see that change.
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Hey everybody Olivia here as a member
of the Sweet fish sales team, I wanted
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to take a second and share something
that makes us insanely more efficient.
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00:20:09.500 --> 00:20:15.340
Our team uses lead I. Q. So for those
of you who are in sales or sales ops,
300
00:20:15.340 --> 00:20:19.650
let me give you some context. You know
how long gathering contact data can
301
00:20:19.650 --> 00:20:25.710
take so long and with lead I. Q. What
once took us four hours to do now. It
302
00:20:25.710 --> 00:20:31.310
takes us just one that is 75% more
efficient. We are so much quicker with
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00:20:31.310 --> 00:20:36.090
outbound prospecting and organizing our
campaigns is so much easier than before.
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00:20:36.100 --> 00:20:40.950
I suggest you guys check it out as well,
You can find them at least I Q dot com.
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00:20:40.960 --> 00:20:45.770
That's L E A D I Q dot com already.
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00:20:47.070 --> 00:20:51.080
Well we got sold right? We got sold on
this idea that if I create one piece of
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content, it becomes 20 pieces of
content, there is some good there. But
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the reality is that really stale
because people consumed the content
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over here, they don't need it 20 other
times over here. So yeah, rex what are
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your thoughts? Yeah, I want to speak to
that point that you just read a benji
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about like content splitting off into
other forms of content and a lot of
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times the reason that I think about the
value of that content is not
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necessarily like it, it depends on
where you want to go with it. You can
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split off content. So let's say we take
a podcast episode and create a micro
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video. If I craft that for linkedin and
I have a compelling question in it or
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I'm, I'm pointing out something that's
going to be powerful enough that I
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expect comments and there's gonna be a
great conversation. That's okay. Like
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that fits whatever my hook is on
linkedin. If my hook is like, hey,
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we're gonna ask really compelling
questions about what it is to be a B
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two B marketer, right? And like if I'm
pulling that from the podcast episode,
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Fantastic, That'll be fit otherwise. I
can also use that channel and say, hey,
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this is a micro video from my episode.
Like check out the full length if this
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seems appealing. But that is, is
decreasing in popularity I would say is
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decreasing in how many conversions
you're gonna get from finding it on
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another channel to going back to that
original channel and consuming that
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content. It'll work. Yeah, there's,
there's still friction there. It'll
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work in quotations. Yeah, I don't think
many people do that in the sense that
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maybe someone will go look it up or
maybe someone will recognize that when
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they're scrolling through marketing
podcast, but like most likely they're
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finding the things they want either
directly from the brands that they want
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because they've been following them for
years and like anything they produce,
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I'll go follow or they're searching and
whatever is optimized in their feed,
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they're going to go find it on that
channel specifically. So like there's,
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there's a fine line and there's like
certain purposes that you can have for
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repurposing content. But yeah, I think
the value of that is decreasing over
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time into James's point. I want to know
what to expect from a brand in every
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channel. I engage with them. Like I
want to know what's coming. So I can
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say yes, every time this hits my inbox,
every time I see that update on
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linkedin, like I want to stop my scroll,
I want to open that email and I need to
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know what's coming because I've got
decision fatigue. I'm constantly
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evaluating a million things and it's
gotten harder with, I'll say covid the
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C word, but it's been terrible because
we also have to decide how to deal with
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like the updates coming from the
school's about whether our kids are
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gonna be safe still and like all the
updates come from the CDC and the news
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coming out. Like we, there's so much
decision fatigue and information,
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fatigue. I just want to know what to
expect and I'm going to opt into that
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I'm gonna stay opted, I'm not gonna opt
out because I know what to expect and
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I'm okay with that. I will, I want the
value of the thing that they're
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promising me and I don't want that
value to change over time. I'm good
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with it. I want to, I want to stay
engaged there. So I think James is
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absolutely right. We're gonna see more
and more of those brands creating those
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hooks, making it really compelling and
consistent. I think that second thing
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consistent is so important there. Mm
hmm. It feels like when you have four
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runners right there testing things,
they're trying things. People that are
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really like these progressive brands
are doing things right now and they're
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they're tweaking their models and
they're trying to get it all situated,
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they'll start to become very excellent
at what they do and then there will be
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the early adopters that are right
behind who, there will be some good in
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there. But there will also start to be
some like they don't fully get it right.
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Like there's some mishaps and some
missteps. I wonder what you guys
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predict will be like the pitfalls of
this model. I I'm not too scared about
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the pitfalls of trying to do this. I
don't think anybody young gang was not
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great at this. I'm sure if you go back
and read some of the first articles
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from the gangs lab stuff that they do
on linkedin. I'm sure they weren't
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nearly as great as the articles that
they're putting out today and that's no
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00:24:33.830 --> 00:24:38.730
shade on chris or lob, he's freaking,
he's a freaking genius and helped set
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up devin read to do what they're doing
at gang today. That's just the game.
368
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Like we're way better at podcasting
today than we were six years ago. And
369
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so I think when it comes to flexing
these, these creative muscles and
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really trying to get good at premises
development, really trying to get good
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at at building out creative campaigns
and building concepts and ideas. You're
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not going to be good at it at 1st. And,
and so fortunately the way the
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algorithms work on social, if something
sucks, very few people see it at least
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organically. And you would hope that
people would have the sense to go,
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let's see if this pops organically
before we start throwing hundreds of
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thousands of dollars behind it and paid
media think chris walker would probably
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argue that most people don't have that
kind of common sense, but I would hope
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that the folks listening to this would
think, hey, let's test this organically.
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If this doesn't fly organically, we're
certainly not going to dump a lot of
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money and paid media to amplify it. But
that's, that's the beauty of social
381
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platforms as they allow us to see
what's gonna fly like IDa post earlier
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this week that I thought was gonna hit
and it just didn't and so the beautiful
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part of that is very few people saw it.
So it's, it's not, Yeah, I'm not, it's
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gonna get buried in the feed. It'll get
buried in my activity. Nobody will ever
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see it. And I'm moving on to the next
one today. So that's my take. I think
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the risk here speaking to someone who
has reported to a higher up in
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marketing cause I think James you have
very ownership mentality, which I love
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as someone who has had to report the
risk I would run is that I put all my
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eggs in the basket and I picked the
wrong basket in terms of the, the hook
390
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for a channel, right? The risk I run is
that I say, hey, we're going all in on
391
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this newsletter about this thing and we
spend a bunch of time and resources
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front end. We don't test like James is
talking about and we're like crap. I
393
00:26:26.620 --> 00:26:30.680
need to go defend this to my boss and
then I say, okay boss. Like this is why
394
00:26:30.680 --> 00:26:33.730
it's not performing yet. You've just
gotta have faith and then hopefully
395
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I've got a new job by the time she
realizes that it didn't work right?
396
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Like that's, that's the risk I run is
that I pick the wrong horse to back and
397
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I defend it too closely. I don't admit
failure. I don't say, you know what?
398
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This just didn't seem like the hook.
We're not just gonna let this one slide
399
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and try a new one. We're not going to
go back to our audience and try and get
400
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some feedback as to why this didn't
resonate with them and continue to like
401
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kind of stick and move right. It's okay
to say that we missed on our first
402
00:26:59.150 --> 00:27:02.190
premise or second premise or third
premise on the channel, Like you can do
403
00:27:02.190 --> 00:27:06.680
that, that's okay. But defending that
to the higher ups, it really depends on
404
00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:09.330
the culture you have in your company.
If you have a culture of like no
405
00:27:09.330 --> 00:27:13.120
failure is acceptable or failure is
learning keep growing, which I imagine
406
00:27:13.120 --> 00:27:15.240
is, you know, the kind of culture you
have at a company like gong where you
407
00:27:15.240 --> 00:27:19.720
see them continue to improve on their
hooks and their channels. I mean
408
00:27:19.720 --> 00:27:23.220
there's just, there's risk for the
marketer in the middle, I'll say that's
409
00:27:23.230 --> 00:27:28.100
my thought to is I guess another
distraction was the word that came to
410
00:27:28.100 --> 00:27:32.160
my mind because you think about people
that aren't doing great on a lot of
411
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:36.020
channels, they're just doing okay work
and then you throw in, hey, now think
412
00:27:36.020 --> 00:27:39.030
of a different premise and a different
hook for all these channels and I'm
413
00:27:39.030 --> 00:27:42.900
like, yeah, you're gonna see a lot of
maybe commodity content now, we have
414
00:27:42.900 --> 00:27:46.790
all these different streams of it and
the hooks aren't fully developed and it
415
00:27:46.800 --> 00:27:51.410
adds extra pressure to a marketing team.
So like I totally agree. We if we
416
00:27:51.420 --> 00:27:56.380
iterate and we continue to like lock in
and we test and then, you know, you get
417
00:27:56.380 --> 00:28:00.110
your, you get it to an optimal space.
That's one thing. But I, I see
418
00:28:00.110 --> 00:28:05.430
potential for distraction where I think
they're just has to be like James is
419
00:28:05.430 --> 00:28:09.960
saying if, if you actually test it and
you and you optimize it over time, this
420
00:28:09.960 --> 00:28:13.050
is the way forward. But there are some
potential pitfalls from a marketing
421
00:28:13.050 --> 00:28:16.670
standpoint where I'm like, it'll be
interesting to see not the gongs of the
422
00:28:16.670 --> 00:28:20.770
world, but like those that are
following in their footsteps again. I I
423
00:28:20.770 --> 00:28:24.370
was really careful whenever I was
writing this down, we're going back and
424
00:28:24.370 --> 00:28:27.650
forth on this and slack was really
careful to say that you're going to see
425
00:28:27.650 --> 00:28:31.470
progressive brands do. Exactly. This is
not, I mean speaking to what rex was
426
00:28:31.470 --> 00:28:35.290
speaking to you earlier, most companies
are not going to be doing this. They
427
00:28:35.290 --> 00:28:38.830
can't nail one premise for one channel
to save their freaking life and they're
428
00:28:38.830 --> 00:28:42.900
just putting out a bunch of crap, but
the folks that get it the metadata of
429
00:28:42.900 --> 00:28:45.840
the world, the chili pipers of the
world, the panda docks of the world,
430
00:28:45.840 --> 00:28:49.970
like the refined labs of the world.
They get it, they're progressive,
431
00:28:49.980 --> 00:28:55.190
they're on it, they're forward thinking
and they can see that like holy crap
432
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:59.520
gangs newsletter because they're using
data from their own product and then
433
00:28:59.520 --> 00:29:03.710
putting out these really, really
helpful data backed articles based on
434
00:29:03.710 --> 00:29:08.080
the call recordings from their own
platform. That's a really smart hook,
435
00:29:08.090 --> 00:29:13.570
what could we do with data from our
product that would produce content like
436
00:29:13.570 --> 00:29:18.820
that and then realizing that it's going
to be a different play on Tiktok or a
437
00:29:18.820 --> 00:29:22.670
different play on twitter. But anyway,
who knows? We're going to see if it
438
00:29:22.670 --> 00:29:26.810
plays out that way. But I'm excited to
see it because I think we're
439
00:29:26.810 --> 00:29:31.410
progressively seeing more and more
creative seep into B two B marketing
440
00:29:31.410 --> 00:29:35.550
land and I'm here for it because this,
this boring crap needs to go and
441
00:29:35.550 --> 00:29:38.560
progressive brands doing, it's so fun
to watch because they're going to do it
442
00:29:38.560 --> 00:29:42.580
super well. So I don't see a lot of
what, what, what rex and I are talking
443
00:29:42.580 --> 00:29:44.990
about isn't gonna happen at the brands
you just mentioned, they're just going
444
00:29:44.990 --> 00:29:47.990
to be fun to watch and they're going to
do it really well. And that's super
445
00:29:47.990 --> 00:29:51.960
exciting and there's a lot we can learn
from it. So, and I think being a
446
00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:55.020
bootstrapped, I mean for those
listening, they're like, oh, but we
447
00:29:55.020 --> 00:29:59.250
don't have gone dollars. God neither do
we. I mean, we're at the last year we
448
00:29:59.250 --> 00:30:02.500
did 2.5 million in revenue this year,
we're trying to do 10 million in
449
00:30:02.500 --> 00:30:05.880
revenue, but we were doing a lot of
this stuff, we're doing the micro
450
00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:08.680
community stuff. We were doing the
create like we had a dedicated person
451
00:30:08.680 --> 00:30:13.470
for a linkedin evangelism program last
year as a $2.5 million bootstrapped
452
00:30:13.470 --> 00:30:18.220
service business. So to think that you
need a lot of cash to be able to
453
00:30:18.220 --> 00:30:22.640
execute on this, I think it is, it's
just faulty thinking. I mean you can,
454
00:30:22.650 --> 00:30:27.110
you can do this stuff in a lean way, in
a way, in a way that still packs a
455
00:30:27.110 --> 00:30:32.650
punch. I mean there are arguably tens
of thousands, if not hundreds of
456
00:30:32.650 --> 00:30:36.400
thousands of people that know that
sweet fish produces podcasts for B two
457
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:41.090
B brands because of our activity on
linkedin and that is one full time hire,
458
00:30:41.100 --> 00:30:45.190
helping 15 people across our team be
really active on linkedin on a
459
00:30:45.190 --> 00:30:49.320
consistent basis. And that's not crazy
for a lot of companies. Even if you're
460
00:30:49.320 --> 00:30:55.940
not this unicorn gong or sales loft or
any, you know, terminus these types of
461
00:30:55.940 --> 00:30:59.210
companies, you don't, you don't need to
be at that level of funding to be able
462
00:30:59.210 --> 00:31:02.840
to execute a lot of that stuff. Yeah.
Innovation thrives with the budget.
463
00:31:02.850 --> 00:31:07.330
That's, I mean, if you have limitless
dollars then you can just buy people's
464
00:31:07.330 --> 00:31:11.270
eyeballs. Like if you have a budget,
you've got to think strategically and
465
00:31:11.280 --> 00:31:15.040
that's what I love about sweet fish. So
alright, rex, let's uh let's take it
466
00:31:15.040 --> 00:31:18.040
home here, give us your last prediction.
We've been talking a lot about
467
00:31:18.040 --> 00:31:22.240
creativity and I think this, this falls
in line with where we need to go from a
468
00:31:22.240 --> 00:31:27.250
talent perspective. I think we're going
to see more digital creators hired into
469
00:31:27.250 --> 00:31:30.970
more companies directly. So one, like
actually hiring full time content
470
00:31:30.970 --> 00:31:35.220
creators and as contractors or through
sponsorships. So I'll break that down.
471
00:31:35.220 --> 00:31:39.190
I think the digital creators are the
people who get it without needing to be
472
00:31:39.190 --> 00:31:43.860
told to go get it to learn how to do it
like they want to and they see it and
473
00:31:43.860 --> 00:31:46.070
they're catching the trends and they're
paying attention and they're trying
474
00:31:46.070 --> 00:31:49.880
stuff constantly and they're building
something interesting. Even if they
475
00:31:49.880 --> 00:31:52.630
have to tweak it all along the way.
Like they do that as a part of who they
476
00:31:52.630 --> 00:31:55.890
are. A lot of them are going to be the
digital natives, right? People who were
477
00:31:55.890 --> 00:31:59.600
born using the screen from a very young
age, like being very familiar with
478
00:31:59.600 --> 00:32:03.730
technology. Some of them are not, There
are creators out there who were not,
479
00:32:03.740 --> 00:32:08.080
you know, born Post 1990 Right? There's,
there's people who are creating amazing
480
00:32:08.080 --> 00:32:11.160
content. A lot of them are gonna be
those, those digital natives though.
481
00:32:11.440 --> 00:32:15.860
And I think we need to tap into that
because trying to imitate that with
482
00:32:15.860 --> 00:32:20.510
corporate marketing work is impossible.
It's not difficult. I think it is
483
00:32:20.510 --> 00:32:24.220
straight up impossible. Yeah. I think
you have to get the people who have the
484
00:32:24.220 --> 00:32:27.490
passion for it and can execute it
without someone holding their hand and
485
00:32:27.490 --> 00:32:28.670
telling them what to do
486
00:32:29.740 --> 00:32:34.340
and then you can be successful with it
versus getting someone who is very
487
00:32:34.340 --> 00:32:38.280
trained up in another skill set and
having to guide them along the way as a
488
00:32:38.280 --> 00:32:42.140
leader and coach them and like where
are you coaching from what you're not
489
00:32:42.140 --> 00:32:45.570
standing on the shore saying, hey come
in like I'm here. You're saying, hey
490
00:32:45.570 --> 00:32:48.160
over there. I think it's an island,
like you should swim there and your
491
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:52.380
coaching them on how to get like that's
crazy. So I think it's impossible to
492
00:32:52.380 --> 00:32:56.090
lead non digital creators to become
digital creator. I think you've got to
493
00:32:56.090 --> 00:32:59.770
find them. So that could be hiring full
time, it could be contracting them and
494
00:32:59.770 --> 00:33:02.130
bringing them in as part of your
process, which I think is a brilliant
495
00:33:02.130 --> 00:33:05.550
way to tap into that as an initial,
like you're not quite ready to do full
496
00:33:05.550 --> 00:33:08.390
time higher and you're still learning
what channels to play with and then
497
00:33:08.390 --> 00:33:11.520
sponsorships I think are going to start
to become a bigger thing. James talked
498
00:33:11.520 --> 00:33:15.560
about some of those micro communities
and like just tapping into the
499
00:33:15.940 --> 00:33:21.820
readiness to listen to that person or
that brand or that, you know, page on
500
00:33:21.820 --> 00:33:25.690
linkedin for example, there's the
people being creative there and then
501
00:33:25.690 --> 00:33:30.580
how do you approach them and like slip
into that audience in a really natural
502
00:33:30.580 --> 00:33:34.090
way and it relies on them helping guide
that discussion. Not you saying, hey, I
503
00:33:34.090 --> 00:33:38.240
want to put my logo on that the next
meme, just put sweet fish on there.
504
00:33:38.250 --> 00:33:42.390
Like it doesn't work that way and the
digital creators will know where it's
505
00:33:42.390 --> 00:33:46.050
going to fit the vibe of their audience
and you can't really tell them that. So
506
00:33:46.050 --> 00:33:49.140
I think it's more digital creators
owning the control of what happens, and
507
00:33:49.140 --> 00:33:53.010
then you're just tapping into that as a
marketing leader. I'm super bullish on
508
00:33:53.010 --> 00:33:57.540
this prediction. I mean, so much so
that we're investing $2.5 million in
509
00:33:57.540 --> 00:34:02.920
building a creator studio in Orlando,
because I think if we can build a hub
510
00:34:02.930 --> 00:34:07.130
that will attract creators to sweet
fish, we're going to build a moat
511
00:34:07.140 --> 00:34:10.600
around our business, that's unlike any
other mode, we can potentially build
512
00:34:10.610 --> 00:34:15.929
where the access to that kind of talent
companies just don't have access to, so
513
00:34:15.929 --> 00:34:19.060
they have to hire a sweet fish to be
able to get that level of creator
514
00:34:19.060 --> 00:34:22.340
talent, I think is super exciting. Now,
that's not to say that companies can't
515
00:34:22.340 --> 00:34:25.510
go and find their own creators, I just
think in reality they're not going to
516
00:34:25.510 --> 00:34:29.350
put in the work to actually do it,
Which is crazy to me because creators
517
00:34:29.350 --> 00:34:33.620
should be some of the easiest people to
find on the internet. They have massive
518
00:34:33.620 --> 00:34:38.429
audiences already and already I think
you already follow them and see what
519
00:34:38.429 --> 00:34:42.020
you guys do that. So, that's an issue
because we're talking about digital
520
00:34:42.020 --> 00:34:45.370
natives, and that is one of the
breakdowns in the B two B space is
521
00:34:45.380 --> 00:34:49.739
those that aren't are don't know who to
follow, but they are out there, yep,
522
00:34:49.750 --> 00:34:53.610
you're exactly, you're spot on with
that benji, but I think in my
523
00:34:53.610 --> 00:34:58.700
experience with creators, one, they
have two skills that I'm just gonna
524
00:34:58.700 --> 00:35:02.410
keep on harping on. I'm sure I've
probably talked about it on the show
525
00:35:02.410 --> 00:35:07.630
before, but the two skills that a
creator has one, they understand
526
00:35:07.630 --> 00:35:12.940
intuitively human psychology, they
understand what is going to actually
527
00:35:12.940 --> 00:35:17.640
make somebody want to engage with this
piece of content and they adjust the
528
00:35:17.640 --> 00:35:21.480
content according to that understanding
of human psychology. The second thing
529
00:35:21.480 --> 00:35:26.160
they understand is platform nuances.
When you talk to somebody who's blowing
530
00:35:26.160 --> 00:35:30.370
up on linkedin, they are not blowing up
on linkedin by accident. They're
531
00:35:30.370 --> 00:35:34.210
looking at a bunch of other creators in
the space that are in their wheelhouse
532
00:35:34.220 --> 00:35:37.880
and they're dissecting posts and
they're figuring out that when you open
533
00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:42.470
up, when you open with this kind of
hook, but go to this line next, It
534
00:35:42.470 --> 00:35:46.560
works. They understand that whenever
you don't put a link in the status
535
00:35:46.560 --> 00:35:50.930
itself, you put the link in the first
comment And you hope that the post is
536
00:35:50.930 --> 00:35:55.310
good enough to keep people engaged on
it. Like there there's platform nuances,
537
00:35:55.320 --> 00:35:59.040
like we we hired a young man Christian,
we hired somebody that already has
538
00:35:59.040 --> 00:36:04.490
200,000 followers on Tiktok It was
extremely affordable. And because of
539
00:36:04.490 --> 00:36:08.290
that, within two or three weeks of
hiring this person, we have, we've
540
00:36:08.300 --> 00:36:13.040
already had tiktok videos that have
over 35,000 views on them because we
541
00:36:13.040 --> 00:36:17.260
hired somebody that's already cracked
the code on Tiktok, I don't need to go
542
00:36:17.260 --> 00:36:20.380
and learn Tiktok, I need to hire
somebody that's already figured out.
543
00:36:20.390 --> 00:36:24.550
And the upside for companies is that a
lot of these creators are not making a
544
00:36:24.550 --> 00:36:29.220
lot of money being a creator, companies
know how to monetize. They have
545
00:36:29.220 --> 00:36:32.920
software, they have services, they have
all of these things that allow them to
546
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:38.120
monetize. Creators aren't as strong on
the monetization front. They're great
547
00:36:38.130 --> 00:36:43.030
at the audience building stuff.
Companies suck at audience building and
548
00:36:43.030 --> 00:36:47.490
they're fantastic at monetization.
There's, there's a two way benefit and
549
00:36:47.490 --> 00:36:49.940
whether that's hiring them as
contractors, whether it's working with
550
00:36:49.940 --> 00:36:53.550
agencies like Sweet fish to get access
to that talent, whether it's bringing
551
00:36:53.550 --> 00:36:58.030
them on full time in house, there's a
mutual benefit and companies hiring
552
00:36:58.030 --> 00:37:02.610
creators that, I just think so many
companies are sleeping on right now and
553
00:37:02.610 --> 00:37:05.780
hopefully it gives us a competitive
advantage in the marketplace because
554
00:37:05.780 --> 00:37:09.200
we're going to gobble up a lot of this
talent. Yeah. Nobody listened to what
555
00:37:09.200 --> 00:37:12.400
he just said because we want to keep
all that a secret, keep it hush hush
556
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:17.900
guys, if you haven't read who not how
go read that book because touching on
557
00:37:17.900 --> 00:37:23.000
the principles right there and that's
extremely important. I think it does
558
00:37:23.010 --> 00:37:26.820
bring be to be kind of back to it, a
space of what we were talking about
559
00:37:26.820 --> 00:37:30.420
before, right with interesting
marketing campaigns and the moved of
560
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:33.620
looking at B to see a little bit and
like how do we get more creative and
561
00:37:33.630 --> 00:37:37.300
all of that part of our conversation,
this flows right in there where I feel
562
00:37:37.300 --> 00:37:42.100
like B. Two C. Has easily cracked this
code because they're like, we sell this
563
00:37:42.100 --> 00:37:45.100
thing that all the creators already
want. B two B. Is looking over there,
564
00:37:45.100 --> 00:37:50.300
like how do we get these creative
people to understand what we do and use
565
00:37:50.300 --> 00:37:55.320
their talent and so that is the next
evolution, that is my my hot take on
566
00:37:55.320 --> 00:38:01.580
that benji here it is. I don't actually
think that a creator needs to
567
00:38:01.580 --> 00:38:06.420
understand all of the nuances of, I
mean we've we've had this conversation
568
00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:11.740
internally, like as we bring creators
into our model and we're looking at
569
00:38:11.740 --> 00:38:15.520
hiring them as contractors to look at
content that we produce for our
570
00:38:15.520 --> 00:38:18.800
customers and figure out how can we
slice and dice this content in a lot of
571
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:22.900
different ways. How can a creator help
us shape what that creative brief looks
572
00:38:22.900 --> 00:38:26.250
like, We've gone back and forth. Do we
need to hire for our shows in
573
00:38:26.250 --> 00:38:30.150
healthcare? Do we need to hire somebody
in health care or do we need to just
574
00:38:30.150 --> 00:38:33.770
hire a creator that's already built an
audience of 50,000 people or more?
575
00:38:33.780 --> 00:38:37.530
Because if they've built an audience of
50,000 or more, they understand
576
00:38:37.530 --> 00:38:40.850
platform nuances. They understand human
psychology and they've proven that in
577
00:38:40.850 --> 00:38:44.180
the audience, they've already built my
experience with creators is that they
578
00:38:44.180 --> 00:38:51.180
are incredibly sharp and so you do not
need to spend a year telling them about
579
00:38:51.180 --> 00:38:57.200
your product or your industry, you you
maybe spend a week or two exposing them
580
00:38:57.200 --> 00:39:01.840
to what you do, who you serve your
understanding of your audience and let
581
00:39:01.850 --> 00:39:07.120
them go to town because they are
incredibly smart idiots don't have that
582
00:39:07.120 --> 00:39:11.420
kind of understanding of human
psychology, idiots don't understand the
583
00:39:11.420 --> 00:39:15.750
nuances of these social platforms and
the depth and understanding that they
584
00:39:15.750 --> 00:39:19.480
have and how these platforms work and
how they can capitalize on them to get
585
00:39:19.480 --> 00:39:23.180
more reach for their content. Like when
you start hearing them talk, I mean it
586
00:39:23.180 --> 00:39:27.340
was only because we interviewed these
influencers on young married christian
587
00:39:27.350 --> 00:39:31.220
that I've had the proximity to them
that I've had in the last six months.
588
00:39:31.230 --> 00:39:36.120
They're freaking brilliant. And so I
don't care if they understand B2B
589
00:39:36.120 --> 00:39:40.770
podcasting, I just want to bring them
in and say let's spend a week teaching
590
00:39:40.770 --> 00:39:44.240
them what we do and then let them go to
town because what they're going to come
591
00:39:44.240 --> 00:39:49.350
up with is going to be far better than
what most marketing teams would come up
592
00:39:49.350 --> 00:39:52.600
with on their own, having all the
knowledge in the world about the
593
00:39:52.600 --> 00:39:57.590
industry and what you do. I also think
another thing Benji, I think a lot of
594
00:39:57.590 --> 00:40:00.880
marketers have to get out of their own
way because I think a lot of marketers
595
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:04.980
pride themselves on actually being good
at human psychology and being good to
596
00:40:04.980 --> 00:40:10.430
understand platform nuances and they
just don't, like I thought I understood
597
00:40:10.810 --> 00:40:14.340
linkedin until I talked to somebody
that's got a million followers on the
598
00:40:14.340 --> 00:40:18.370
platform. And I'm like, nope, I don't
understand this platform at all. Like
599
00:40:18.380 --> 00:40:21.850
the things that I'm understanding, like
don't put a link in the, in the like
600
00:40:21.860 --> 00:40:27.220
that was like three years ago in sight.
Like the stuff that people are like the
601
00:40:27.220 --> 00:40:31.910
people that are really in it and really
studying this stuff, they know way more
602
00:40:31.910 --> 00:40:37.280
than the average marketer inside a
company. But I hope that marketers can
603
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:42.070
get out of their own way. Kind of let
their ego to the side and admit that
604
00:40:42.080 --> 00:40:45.040
there are better people. There are
there are people that understand human
605
00:40:45.040 --> 00:40:48.170
psychology better than me. There are
people that understand these platform
606
00:40:48.170 --> 00:40:52.640
nuances better than me. And if we don't
go and hire them, our brand is going to
607
00:40:52.640 --> 00:40:56.330
pay the price. Mm hmm. Makes you look
like a brilliant marketer if you go get
608
00:40:56.330 --> 00:41:00.090
them. So if you need to, if you need
that little pat on the back or that
609
00:41:00.090 --> 00:41:04.800
little ego, there's just Countless.
There's count. They're everywhere y'all
610
00:41:04.800 --> 00:41:09.060
like from the person that's built
400,000 followers with a knitting
611
00:41:09.070 --> 00:41:13.200
channel on Youtube. Like they are
everywhere. Like obviously if you can
612
00:41:13.200 --> 00:41:18.740
find somebody in your niche that's done
it and has the industry background and
613
00:41:18.740 --> 00:41:22.180
understanding awesome. That's great.
But don't feel limited that if you're
614
00:41:22.180 --> 00:41:26.270
like, oh man, I'm wearing this super
niche. Like maritime logistics. There's
615
00:41:26.270 --> 00:41:29.140
nobody doing this. Okay. Get somebody
that doesn't know anything about
616
00:41:29.140 --> 00:41:32.500
maritime logistics, I guarantee you in
a month, they'll know all they need to
617
00:41:32.500 --> 00:41:36.640
know to make a splash in your industry
like you never thought was possible.
618
00:41:37.140 --> 00:41:41.700
Final words on this one. I did not.
That was very much pun unintended with
619
00:41:41.700 --> 00:41:45.040
the maritime logistics. It was a sweet
fish and maritime logistics.
620
00:41:47.010 --> 00:41:53.250
No, that's it man, I'm seconding all
that good. Good. This is such a fun
621
00:41:53.250 --> 00:41:57.460
conversation guys, I'll sum it up here.
Rex had two predictions that we're
622
00:41:57.460 --> 00:42:01.380
going to see a surge of creative one
off B2B marketing campaigns as opposed
623
00:42:01.380 --> 00:42:06.300
to kind of stale ongoing promotional
vehicles. Love that second prediction
624
00:42:06.300 --> 00:42:10.850
from rex was like, subsequently we're
gonna see creative talent. So digital
625
00:42:10.850 --> 00:42:14.860
creators hired into more companies, we
just talked about that James had to,
626
00:42:14.870 --> 00:42:19.810
we're going to see niche media
properties and communities get acquired,
627
00:42:20.100 --> 00:42:23.220
we'll be watching out for that and then
his second one was progressive brands
628
00:42:23.220 --> 00:42:26.400
are going to start developing unique
premises or hooks for each of their
629
00:42:26.400 --> 00:42:30.990
content channels. We would love to hear
what you guys are thinking about your
630
00:42:30.990 --> 00:42:35.410
predictions. If you tag B two B growth
on linkedin and make a post about it
631
00:42:35.420 --> 00:42:38.830
would be, I'll be sure to, to interact
with you over there. You can tag me to
632
00:42:38.830 --> 00:42:43.650
Benji Block on linkedin and we can get
the conversation going. Love your guys
633
00:42:43.650 --> 00:42:48.010
predictions, James and rex, Thanks for
being on the show today. If you're not
634
00:42:48.010 --> 00:42:51.120
subscribed yet, make sure you subscribe
so you don't miss an episode. Keep
635
00:42:51.130 --> 00:42:54.240
doing work. That matters. And we'll be
back with another episode real soon.
636
00:42:54.250 --> 00:42:55.520
Thanks guys for being on the show.
637
00:42:59.800 --> 00:43:03.920
Is your buyer A B two B marketer. If so,
you should think about sponsoring this
638
00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:08.870
podcast. BTB Growth gets downloaded
over 130,000 times each month. And our
639
00:43:08.870 --> 00:43:12.690
listeners are marketing decision makers.
If it sounds interesting, send Logan
640
00:43:12.690 --> 00:43:17.430
and email Logan at Sweet Fish Media dot
com. Mm hmm.