Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.040 --> 00:00:08.400 welcome back to be to be growth on Logan Lyles with sweet fish media. I'm 2 00:00:08.400 --> 00:00:12.460 joined today by Hannah Man's She's the director of a B. M Over at directive. 3 00:00:12.460 --> 00:00:15.880 Hannah. Welcome to the show. How you doing today? I'm doing great. Thanks so 4 00:00:15.880 --> 00:00:19.240 much for having me. Absolutely. We have to know with most of our guests. Are 5 00:00:19.240 --> 00:00:24.860 you Team Coker, Team Pepsi? I really got to know 100% team coke. Okay. We've 6 00:00:24.860 --> 00:00:29.270 only got a few team team Pepsi, folks, and I'm surprised here. A sweet fish. 7 00:00:29.270 --> 00:00:33.040 I'm surprised James hasn't just fired them. It's like grounds for dismissal 8 00:00:33.040 --> 00:00:38.690 around here. James is just so adamant against Pepsi. For whatever reason I 9 00:00:38.700 --> 00:00:42.560 could I could drink either. But I'm definitely team coke, if you ask me. So 10 00:00:42.540 --> 00:00:45.960 good to know where your allegiances lie. Hannah, we're gonna be talking about 11 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:48.910 more than soft drinks today. We're gonna be talking about career path 12 00:00:48.910 --> 00:00:52.780 thing and really mapping your journey for your career, especially within 13 00:00:52.780 --> 00:00:56.700 marketing. And as you and I were chatting, I would love for you to share 14 00:00:56.700 --> 00:01:00.940 with listeners a little bit about your recent journey and why this has become 15 00:01:00.940 --> 00:01:06.310 really a point of passion for you personally lately. Sure, sure. So a 16 00:01:06.310 --> 00:01:09.220 couple of weeks ago, I'm a member of the Revenue Collective. In a couple of 17 00:01:09.220 --> 00:01:13.240 weeks ago, during one of our marketing meetings, one of the members waas 18 00:01:13.250 --> 00:01:16.690 talking to the group and wanting advice for, you know, connecting and talking 19 00:01:16.690 --> 00:01:21.730 with his manager about his career development at his organization and 20 00:01:21.740 --> 00:01:26.140 myself and another colleague of mine. Another member was really harping on 21 00:01:26.150 --> 00:01:30.510 trying to understand, like, what did he want? You know, And it was really 22 00:01:30.520 --> 00:01:35.150 interesting to me how difficult that question is to answer or, you know, and 23 00:01:35.150 --> 00:01:39.650 not and not really having that as your starting point when you're thinking 24 00:01:39.650 --> 00:01:44.470 about you know, your next career move or your your career path. Eso That's 25 00:01:44.470 --> 00:01:48.090 what definitely got me, like really kind of like started on realizing how 26 00:01:48.090 --> 00:01:51.700 important it was to really talk about this. Yeah, absolutely. This is, Ah, 27 00:01:51.700 --> 00:01:55.920 hot topic for us here at Sweet Fish because it's actually part of our 28 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:00.380 mission here. We see part of what we're doing is inspiring. People toe own 29 00:02:00.380 --> 00:02:04.000 their careers because we know that the podcast that we produce, whether that's 30 00:02:04.000 --> 00:02:08.360 for marketing or HR, professionals or manufacturing professionals that if we 31 00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:12.590 can produce content, that helps them see where they wanna go, who they wanna 32 00:02:12.590 --> 00:02:15.970 learn from and get better in their careers. They could take ownership of 33 00:02:15.970 --> 00:02:19.750 their career and then really start to decide where they want to go and and 34 00:02:19.750 --> 00:02:23.490 really head there. So would you say that kind of career path thing as a 35 00:02:23.490 --> 00:02:28.050 term? Maybe the way to think about it is I'm I'm figuring out the path. And 36 00:02:28.050 --> 00:02:32.490 now I'm headed down a definitive path rather than I'm just kind of figuring 37 00:02:32.490 --> 00:02:36.740 out whatever the next step is. Whatever kind of comes my way exactly, like 38 00:02:36.750 --> 00:02:40.470 really taking ownership of your own journey, right? Not really. Just 39 00:02:40.470 --> 00:02:44.830 keeping it up to chance or being afraid to almost have those conversations and 40 00:02:44.830 --> 00:02:49.270 ask, Where do you stand or ask, Where do you find yourself? And then I think 41 00:02:49.270 --> 00:02:51.840 what the value that you guys will bring with the podcast is kind of helping 42 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:55.940 people because you don't know what you don't know, right? So how are you even 43 00:02:55.940 --> 00:02:58.970 starting to, like, really these things that might not even be circulating? And 44 00:02:58.970 --> 00:03:02.030 I might even be a thought that you're having until you're able to get into 45 00:03:02.030 --> 00:03:05.420 the heads of other people's minds, see where they're at, maybe really help you 46 00:03:05.430 --> 00:03:09.140 as you're trying to, you know, map out whatever type of professional journey 47 00:03:09.140 --> 00:03:11.940 someone might be embarking on, whether that be with their career ownership, 48 00:03:11.950 --> 00:03:15.300 with their channel ownership, with their departmental ownership, whatever 49 00:03:15.300 --> 00:03:20.400 they have you. Yeah. So, Hannah, you've started to develop a framework to help 50 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:24.590 people think about how do they map out their career path or start on this 51 00:03:24.600 --> 00:03:29.090 journey of career Path thing as it is, what are some of the major steps? If 52 00:03:29.090 --> 00:03:32.580 you can kind of outline some of the steps in the framework and then let's 53 00:03:32.580 --> 00:03:36.750 kind of break down each one in turn. So maybe speak to kind of the major steps 54 00:03:36.760 --> 00:03:41.260 and then we can dive into where people start from there. Sure. So I think the 55 00:03:41.260 --> 00:03:44.830 first place always start is kind of introspection. And that self evaluation 56 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:49.100 kind of asking that question. What? Hey, what do I want? You know? And then from 57 00:03:49.100 --> 00:03:53.340 there, are, you know, are you in a place for that to happen? Is are you is 58 00:03:53.340 --> 00:03:56.820 like it's a company or at the organization you're in, you know? Is is 59 00:03:56.820 --> 00:04:01.610 what you want. Is it feasible? And then if it is, you don't talk to your boss. 60 00:04:01.620 --> 00:04:05.150 You know, even I would even advocate. Maybe if it isn't Talk to your boss. 61 00:04:05.150 --> 00:04:08.660 How you do that, of course, is very different. But talk to your supervisor. 62 00:04:08.670 --> 00:04:13.280 And if it is the right place, you know, having a having a set conversation 63 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:15.940 around the milestones and you know, what does that look like to get you 64 00:04:15.940 --> 00:04:19.649 there? And if it's not the evaluation process kind of thing, you know, like 65 00:04:19.740 --> 00:04:22.640 when you're looking at the market and you're looking at you know what the 66 00:04:22.640 --> 00:04:26.420 organizations like. How do you ensure that you're setting yourself up for 67 00:04:26.420 --> 00:04:31.460 success when picking your next step? Yeah. So it starts with introspection. 68 00:04:31.460 --> 00:04:35.510 Step number two would be kind of assessing the broader situation so that 69 00:04:35.520 --> 00:04:40.000 introspective is about Where do I want to go, then? Once you're clear on that, 70 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:44.300 determining where am I now and then how does that relate to where I want to go? 71 00:04:44.310 --> 00:04:49.110 And then that kicks off maybe an initial conversation with your manager 72 00:04:49.110 --> 00:04:53.190 or your boss, whoever whoever that is and then you can take appropriate next 73 00:04:53.190 --> 00:04:57.970 steps from there. As you start that phase one, that internal introspection 74 00:04:57.980 --> 00:05:01.620 as you think about that, what are some good questions that you think folks 75 00:05:01.620 --> 00:05:06.130 should be asking themselves? Obviously, start with. What do I want? That's a 76 00:05:06.130 --> 00:05:09.250 really great kind of open ended questions. But for someone who kind of 77 00:05:09.250 --> 00:05:13.410 get stuck on that question, do you have some other questions or things that 78 00:05:13.410 --> 00:05:18.360 they could do to try to figure out where to start with that initial step? 79 00:05:18.540 --> 00:05:23.310 Yes. So I think that the first really important thing so identify is is you 80 00:05:23.310 --> 00:05:26.860 know, do you want to be in a startup or a matured environment, right? And kind 81 00:05:26.860 --> 00:05:29.880 of having that conversation with yourself? Do I like to be a big fish in 82 00:05:29.880 --> 00:05:33.310 a little pond? And if you like to be a big fish in a little pond, early stage 83 00:05:33.310 --> 00:05:38.130 startups in the start up environment is a great place to be your and also from 84 00:05:38.130 --> 00:05:41.380 a scale perspective, right, you're gonna be able to wear multiple hats. 85 00:05:41.380 --> 00:05:43.850 You're going to get to your hands into everything. You get to kind of have 86 00:05:43.850 --> 00:05:48.080 that you know, that, really that that impact across the whole organization to 87 00:05:48.080 --> 00:05:50.660 kind of defining like, Is that what I want? Do I want to be, you know, a jack 88 00:05:50.660 --> 00:05:56.220 of all trades and really have a kind of an experience in different areas of 89 00:05:56.220 --> 00:05:59.650 Maybe if we're talking specifically about marketing, do I want to go and to 90 00:05:59.660 --> 00:06:03.930 understand the content, demand gen You know, revenue marketing, integrated 91 00:06:03.930 --> 00:06:07.800 marketing, whatever, have you whatever that looks like. You know, start ups, a 92 00:06:07.800 --> 00:06:10.940 really great environments to do that. And then once you start getting into 93 00:06:10.940 --> 00:06:15.720 larger organizations, it comes, you know, more down to you to scope. And 94 00:06:15.730 --> 00:06:20.980 you get to really become an expert in one area of your craft. So that's where 95 00:06:20.980 --> 00:06:22.950 you really double down. And maybe you're going to be, you know, be a 96 00:06:22.950 --> 00:06:26.740 really fantastic brand marketer, and you're gonna be develop your expertise 97 00:06:26.740 --> 00:06:30.490 there, Or maybe it's going to be digital demand, Gen. And where you 98 00:06:30.490 --> 00:06:33.250 really begin to master all the different. You know, all the different 99 00:06:33.260 --> 00:06:37.320 advertising platforms, and I have a robust understanding of S e o. And then, 100 00:06:37.320 --> 00:06:42.090 you know, in in I would argue in most positions besides marketing, I do think 101 00:06:42.090 --> 00:06:45.710 in marketing you do have to have, like you do have to have a level of 102 00:06:45.710 --> 00:06:49.150 understanding across all the different disciplines. But scope is where the 103 00:06:49.150 --> 00:06:53.040 money is that right? People are gonna pay top dollar for experts, even when 104 00:06:53.040 --> 00:06:56.340 you're coming into, like, start ups that are starting to scale after Siri's 105 00:06:56.340 --> 00:07:00.410 be there Now we're gonna have funding to start taking are probably seriously, 106 00:07:00.420 --> 00:07:03.040 more realistically, you're gonna start to have money to start taking on 107 00:07:03.050 --> 00:07:06.430 experts to run departments. You might have been there since the beginning, 108 00:07:06.430 --> 00:07:09.500 but now you no longer have the skill set, right? So, you know, kind of 109 00:07:09.510 --> 00:07:13.030 having those kind of conversations with yourself, I think, is a really great 110 00:07:13.030 --> 00:07:16.930 place to start. I like how you break down. Do I wanna have kind of that 111 00:07:16.930 --> 00:07:21.250 scaled impact, which can mean I get to do a lot of different things. I get toe 112 00:07:21.250 --> 00:07:25.610 have impact in a lot of different areas. Maybe I won't make it much, though. And 113 00:07:25.610 --> 00:07:30.030 if I want to narrow and become an expert, maybe I can make mawr. But that 114 00:07:30.030 --> 00:07:34.130 looks different and not that money is the only factor for anyone, right? And 115 00:07:34.130 --> 00:07:38.560 I think that's what this initial phase of introspection is all about our 116 00:07:38.560 --> 00:07:41.590 director of audience growth. And Sanchez just put out Ah, post on 117 00:07:41.590 --> 00:07:44.700 LinkedIn the other day. You might have to scroll a bit in his feet because he 118 00:07:44.700 --> 00:07:48.760 posts, like three times a day is just a machine. But it was about maybe we 119 00:07:48.760 --> 00:07:52.270 could link to it in the show notes. It was basically about your marketing 120 00:07:52.270 --> 00:07:56.990 career and what is more valuable, a generalist versus a specialist, and how 121 00:07:56.990 --> 00:08:00.620 do they play off of each other? Do you have to be a generalist first before 122 00:08:00.620 --> 00:08:03.580 you can really become a specialist because you don't know what you need to 123 00:08:03.590 --> 00:08:07.740 specialize in or what you want to be specialized in or what you would do 124 00:08:07.740 --> 00:08:12.240 well specialized in? I think those are all really good questions for people to 125 00:08:12.250 --> 00:08:17.350 ask themselves and to think about. And if your aim is to go for that scope and 126 00:08:17.350 --> 00:08:22.000 to become a great brand marketing CMO one day, then how do you get there? 127 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:26.450 Maybe there are times where scale in a smaller startup can help you get there, 128 00:08:26.460 --> 00:08:30.710 so I think that this initial phase is really important. Say you've kind of 129 00:08:30.710 --> 00:08:33.720 figured this out. You kind of think where you know where you wanna go. Not 130 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:37.570 that that is set in stone and etched on a tablet somewhere. But you kind of 131 00:08:37.570 --> 00:08:41.950 have a working idea. You have a working path, and that might change. But then 132 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:45.230 the next step of assessing your situation, what are some of the 133 00:08:45.230 --> 00:08:49.320 questions you recommend people ask themselves or ask their peers as they 134 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:54.610 look at? Am I in a situation that is close to where I wanna go or is setting 135 00:08:54.610 --> 00:08:59.020 me up to take the next step toe where I want to go? Yeah, And then that's where 136 00:08:59.020 --> 00:09:02.300 you've already kind of probably, you know, if your visual I like to write 137 00:09:02.300 --> 00:09:04.790 things out, I'd like to see it. You've made your list. Now you're starting to 138 00:09:04.790 --> 00:09:08.080 look at things. And then we need to say, like, you know, I might in a place 139 00:09:08.080 --> 00:09:11.200 where I can do this. And then that's where you start to compare and contrast. 140 00:09:11.210 --> 00:09:14.510 I think one really interesting thing to bring up for marketers. If if you're in 141 00:09:14.510 --> 00:09:18.060 a serious days or serious B company, the resource is probably aren't there 142 00:09:18.060 --> 00:09:22.610 for you to do a whole lot you better be ready. Thio get really creative and you 143 00:09:22.610 --> 00:09:26.440 could have a lot of really awesome ideas. But you have to be comfortable. 144 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:29.360 I think a lot of might not be able to come to fruition. So you might not be 145 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:32.900 really be able to get that that experience that you're looking for, 146 00:09:32.910 --> 00:09:36.630 just simply do the fact of a budget constraint, you know? So that might be 147 00:09:36.630 --> 00:09:39.350 something important to think about what we're thinking. I do want to make an 148 00:09:39.350 --> 00:09:44.330 impact. But now, looking at the organization to see, you know, or even 149 00:09:44.340 --> 00:09:47.480 those conversations you would maybe have with a founder about how do they 150 00:09:47.480 --> 00:09:50.920 value marketing? Can you see that? Your that they're invested, that they see 151 00:09:50.920 --> 00:09:54.520 the value? Or do you foresee yourself having an uphill battle here? You know, 152 00:09:54.520 --> 00:09:57.940 I'm trying to fight for everything that you need. That's where I think the next 153 00:09:57.940 --> 00:10:01.340 you just start kind of doing that Compare contrast where you currently 154 00:10:01.340 --> 00:10:05.870 find yourself at toe, understand? Can I make Can I make what I want happen here? 155 00:10:06.040 --> 00:10:09.030 I think ideally we would all love that right. That's what that would be the 156 00:10:09.030 --> 00:10:12.540 dream. If we're somewhere, you're probably really happy. And you want to 157 00:10:12.540 --> 00:10:16.230 know how can I start Thio, excel in my career? Make a home for me here? Yeah, 158 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:19.990 absolutely. So let's say you've assessed the situation and you need to 159 00:10:19.990 --> 00:10:24.480 start having those conversations with folks either because you've realized, 160 00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:28.030 Hey, I am in a really good spot. This is gonna help me get to where I wanna 161 00:10:28.030 --> 00:10:33.660 go or you realized Oh, no, I think I'm not in the right spot. In either of 162 00:10:33.660 --> 00:10:37.180 those situations. Can you kind of compare and contrast the way that you 163 00:10:37.180 --> 00:10:41.610 wanna approach those conversations with your superiors, depending on what you 164 00:10:41.610 --> 00:10:45.470 find out in that phase one of introspection and that phase two of 165 00:10:45.480 --> 00:10:49.450 assessing the situation that you're in? Yeah, of course, your manager can play 166 00:10:49.450 --> 00:10:53.210 a huge role in your success at an organization, right? So I think the 167 00:10:53.220 --> 00:10:57.630 first and foremost the things that kind of realizes you need to establish the 168 00:10:57.630 --> 00:11:02.300 relationship that you want because you know, e just would never assume that 169 00:11:02.310 --> 00:11:06.460 because you report to somebody that, um, they have time to manage you that they 170 00:11:06.470 --> 00:11:09.900 want to manage you. Or that they even know how to manage you. So that's like 171 00:11:09.910 --> 00:11:12.860 it's a really great starting place to say, like, how can I establish that 172 00:11:12.860 --> 00:11:18.770 relationship that that I want with them and not to get too off topic? But I 173 00:11:18.770 --> 00:11:21.390 find there's a couple of ways to do that. You know, trust is always the 174 00:11:21.390 --> 00:11:24.770 most important. Make sure that you guys have the trust and it goes both ways. 175 00:11:24.770 --> 00:11:27.760 You need to be able to trust them, but they need to also be able to trust you 176 00:11:27.770 --> 00:11:33.240 and understanding what their bottom line is. And you make their life easier 177 00:11:33.240 --> 00:11:37.400 when you when you're able to kind of take things off their plate or truly 178 00:11:37.400 --> 00:11:40.280 understand what they're being measured for and what's important to them. 179 00:11:40.290 --> 00:11:43.410 That's how you become invaluable and then understanding their strengths and 180 00:11:43.410 --> 00:11:47.540 weaknesses and being able to kind of close the gap there and really leverage 181 00:11:47.540 --> 00:11:52.100 and learn from their strengths. S So that's, you know, kind of talking with 182 00:11:52.100 --> 00:11:55.530 your boss, but making sure that you, before talking with them, that you have 183 00:11:55.530 --> 00:11:59.230 that relationship where you can have this conversation, you know, and just, 184 00:11:59.230 --> 00:12:02.960 you know, and then kind of go to them and kind of laid out for them you know, 185 00:12:02.970 --> 00:12:06.650 at the end of the day, they want to see you be successful. It's just probably 186 00:12:06.650 --> 00:12:11.090 not their top priority. They're also responsible for quite a lot. So, um, 187 00:12:11.090 --> 00:12:14.500 coming to the table once you've identified is a much more powerful 188 00:12:14.500 --> 00:12:18.980 place than if you were just going like, hey, what does life look like here for 189 00:12:18.980 --> 00:12:22.640 me? What do we got going on? I need to know. I don't know. But then, you know, 190 00:12:22.640 --> 00:12:25.990 when they come back to you, what do you want? And you're like, Oh, I don't know, 191 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:30.320 right? Yeah. Yeah. It comes back to that conversation that you were talking 192 00:12:30.320 --> 00:12:35.280 about in the community at the top of the episode. So, Hannah, any advice for 193 00:12:35.280 --> 00:12:40.860 folks who say Okay, I know where I wanna go. I realized that I don't know 194 00:12:40.860 --> 00:12:45.540 if I'm in the right situation and I need to have this conversation with my 195 00:12:45.540 --> 00:12:51.640 boss, but maybe I need to establish a little bit more relationship. We don't 196 00:12:51.640 --> 00:12:57.120 have that now. Do you have any advice on how to establish that trust and to 197 00:12:57.120 --> 00:13:01.360 make the turn to starting that conversation any any dues? And Don's 198 00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:06.210 for folks that air in that specific situation. Sure, I think the best. You 199 00:13:06.210 --> 00:13:10.070 know, most of us will have one on ones with our manager. I am a firm believer. 200 00:13:10.070 --> 00:13:13.310 You get you set the agenda. It's your meeting there giving you their time. Go 201 00:13:13.310 --> 00:13:16.950 into meeting like and let them know the day before, um, set out the agenda 202 00:13:16.950 --> 00:13:19.870 outlining everything that you want to talk about. Everything that you have on 203 00:13:19.870 --> 00:13:23.230 there on your on your plate right now that you want to get their input on. I 204 00:13:23.230 --> 00:13:27.640 know that most time I've understood that like my managers have like, have 205 00:13:27.640 --> 00:13:30.480 been like if they're a reader, so they want to read it, they need to see it 206 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:33.480 before them so they can digest it. And so I've always done that the day before, 207 00:13:33.490 --> 00:13:37.710 it's really just helped set the tone and, uh, for a meeting, but also the 208 00:13:37.710 --> 00:13:40.960 fact that, like they're not having to come to me and asked me what's going on, 209 00:13:40.970 --> 00:13:44.220 you know what I mean? I'm providing them with the with the insights that 210 00:13:44.220 --> 00:13:47.120 they need before they can even ask, right? So that would be my next thing 211 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:50.790 is like beaten to the punch. They proactively answer questions that you 212 00:13:50.790 --> 00:13:54.170 know that they're gonna have on, you know, always kind of have a If you have 213 00:13:54.170 --> 00:13:57.080 problems, have that solution ready might not be the right solution. But, 214 00:13:57.080 --> 00:14:00.320 like, ask yourself, what would they dio and make sure that you like you have At 215 00:14:00.320 --> 00:14:04.240 least you're trying to be that so that that that problem solver and not that 216 00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:08.180 person that's just always bringing up, you know the problem. Those would be 217 00:14:08.180 --> 00:14:12.840 some, I think advice I would give. And then when you get feedback immediately, 218 00:14:12.840 --> 00:14:18.050 apply it right. And if they can't see that report on it, just keeping those 219 00:14:18.050 --> 00:14:22.910 lines of communication really open. Yeah, there's a really great point I'm 220 00:14:22.910 --> 00:14:26.000 taking notes here is you're talking Hannah. And I think we've got, you know, 221 00:14:26.000 --> 00:14:31.710 four tips for making your one on ones more effective for you one developing 222 00:14:31.710 --> 00:14:36.810 agenda. Send that to your boss ahead of time. Be proactive not only in sending 223 00:14:36.810 --> 00:14:40.850 the agenda, but also anticipating what questions they have, what they're gonna 224 00:14:40.850 --> 00:14:46.070 want updates on and add that to the agenda. Then number three was, you know, 225 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.600 offer solutions. It doesn't mean you have to have the perfect solution, but 226 00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:54.880 at least have a 1.0 version and say, Hey, I have this problem. This is the 227 00:14:54.880 --> 00:14:58.830 first idea I had to potentially solve it. Do you think that's the right path? 228 00:14:58.830 --> 00:15:01.880 Do you have any advice? Do you think I'm heading in the wrong direction 229 00:15:01.880 --> 00:15:06.320 there? It often elicits a very emotional response when you tell 230 00:15:06.320 --> 00:15:09.800 someone. Hey, Hannah, do you think I'm doing something wrong here? And they 231 00:15:09.800 --> 00:15:13.330 might say, Oh, no, no, no. But then they would say. But I would do this in 232 00:15:13.330 --> 00:15:17.060 this a little bit differently, right? It just kind of triggers them to 233 00:15:17.060 --> 00:15:20.650 respond and then make sure that you're applying feedback. I think that's one 234 00:15:20.650 --> 00:15:24.080 of the tactical things. You know what you were saying about building trust 235 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:27.690 with your manager so that you can have some tougher conversations which I want 236 00:15:27.690 --> 00:15:31.330 to get to you on in just a second about some of those tougher conversations, 237 00:15:31.330 --> 00:15:35.120 especially around comp in those sorts of things. But I think we understand 238 00:15:35.120 --> 00:15:38.480 that, right? I need to make sure my manager, trust me, I need to trust them 239 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:43.510 that, but taking the feedback they've given you, making sure that you apply 240 00:15:43.510 --> 00:15:47.730 it and making sure that you know that, that they can see the impact of that. 241 00:15:47.740 --> 00:15:51.830 That's just a way over time to build trust with them because they've they've 242 00:15:51.830 --> 00:15:55.640 taken time to give you feedback, and you show that you're gonna honor that 243 00:15:55.640 --> 00:15:58.710 time and that input from their leadership and actually do something 244 00:15:58.710 --> 00:16:03.190 with it. So let's jump from there into. Maybe there is a tougher conversation 245 00:16:03.190 --> 00:16:07.660 where you realize either based on compensation or based on, you know, 246 00:16:07.670 --> 00:16:11.930 upward mobility and even the opportunity for a promotion or a 247 00:16:11.930 --> 00:16:15.950 different sort of roll. It just isn't there or you're not sure if it's there, 248 00:16:15.950 --> 00:16:19.150 but you wanna ask that question? But you don't want to just come off of, 249 00:16:19.140 --> 00:16:22.520 Well, when am I going to get a raise? Or when am I going to get a promotion? 250 00:16:22.520 --> 00:16:25.980 Because that's not the way that you wanna ask that. So for someone that 251 00:16:25.980 --> 00:16:30.250 says, Yeah, I realize that, but I'm not really quite sure how I should word it, 252 00:16:30.250 --> 00:16:34.350 how I should bring up those tougher conversations. What would you say there? 253 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:40.310 Yes, so I would say first things first. You have to create your narrative 254 00:16:40.320 --> 00:16:43.300 that's that's so important you're telling a story when you're if you're 255 00:16:43.300 --> 00:16:46.740 going in there for kind of wanting to be considered for a promotion that 256 00:16:46.740 --> 00:16:50.400 might be in the organization on they have been looking for an external hire. 257 00:16:50.410 --> 00:16:53.900 Or if you realize that like you want to go in and have ah, compensation 258 00:16:53.900 --> 00:16:57.170 conversation about a raise, you need to create your narrative, make sure you 259 00:16:57.170 --> 00:17:02.300 have your past performance in there. You understand market trends, and it 260 00:17:02.300 --> 00:17:05.800 depends on who you report to. A swell. If you're a marketer reporting into 261 00:17:05.800 --> 00:17:10.900 like a C R O, I would have like a cat to LTV ratio built out based upon, like 262 00:17:10.900 --> 00:17:14.500 where you're going to put the increase in your salary that you're expecting, 263 00:17:14.510 --> 00:17:19.040 how that's gonna be felt across the whore organization. Why this is like it 264 00:17:19.040 --> 00:17:22.380 financially makes sense to give you this race not only why you deserve it, 265 00:17:22.380 --> 00:17:26.430 but why this is actually not gonna that create any negative impact on the 266 00:17:26.430 --> 00:17:30.730 organization or additional burden to the organization. That's what that's 267 00:17:30.730 --> 00:17:33.570 where I would start and then also that goes with just, like know your audience 268 00:17:33.570 --> 00:17:37.550 and then make sure that, like you know, that you understand their perspective 269 00:17:37.550 --> 00:17:41.000 and that their narrative it might be might be different from yours and be 270 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:45.120 open minded toe having that you've been living on one story tracks and when 271 00:17:45.120 --> 00:17:47.660 you've been working there and they might be living on another one, you 272 00:17:47.660 --> 00:17:51.510 know, and so be prepared for some feedback based on that. And then I 273 00:17:51.510 --> 00:17:54.930 would say, Let them know you wanna have that conversation. Just don't walk into 274 00:17:54.930 --> 00:17:58.360 your wonder one and your one on one with that. That's kind of where you go 275 00:17:58.360 --> 00:18:01.140 to that point of, like, you know, notifying them because, like, that's 276 00:18:01.150 --> 00:18:05.020 you don't wanna walk in and then you just having a conversation conversation 277 00:18:05.020 --> 00:18:09.290 like Don't ambush them. Put that in your agenda. Yeah, I love that. I 278 00:18:09.300 --> 00:18:13.610 really like what you're saying there about building the financial case and 279 00:18:13.610 --> 00:18:17.450 showing that, you know, because there's always this tension right. I saw Mark A 280 00:18:17.450 --> 00:18:22.220 Smith post about this, about how he's always trying to make sure that he is 281 00:18:22.220 --> 00:18:26.620 paying everyone the most that he possibly can, so that if they're asking 282 00:18:26.620 --> 00:18:30.970 for a raise that kind of hasn't already been talked about, he's like, Well, we 283 00:18:30.970 --> 00:18:34.700 don't need to like, negotiate and I don't need to see if I can more because 284 00:18:34.710 --> 00:18:39.400 I've already just made that decision. And so it's interesting. Thio. Think 285 00:18:39.400 --> 00:18:43.310 about Can can you actually do that? There's some sparked a really good 286 00:18:43.310 --> 00:18:48.020 conversation on LinkedIn, but your boss is not only looking at, do you deserve 287 00:18:48.020 --> 00:18:52.740 a raise but doesn't make sense for the business? Is it feasible and doesn't 288 00:18:52.740 --> 00:18:56.540 make sense from a business perspective? And so I think your example there of 289 00:18:56.550 --> 00:19:02.540 showing literally as a market or how a a raise or a promotion would affect the 290 00:19:02.550 --> 00:19:06.850 impact of marketing. And that capped LTV ratio that is so important for 291 00:19:06.860 --> 00:19:11.190 every marketing function really shows that you've got a level of business 292 00:19:11.190 --> 00:19:16.080 acumen that you're not just saying, Hey, I deserve this right? And that's not to 293 00:19:16.080 --> 00:19:20.150 say that that's not important. But there's a bigger story going on here 294 00:19:20.150 --> 00:19:24.320 with marketings impact on the business and the business overall. And if you 295 00:19:24.320 --> 00:19:28.530 show that you have that acumen, then you're going to be taken that much more 296 00:19:28.530 --> 00:19:32.420 seriously. So I like that. I also like not ambushing them. That's that's a 297 00:19:32.420 --> 00:19:35.880 great point as well. Can A. If anybody is listening to this and they really 298 00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:40.020 like, you know, this framework of figuring out their career path and 299 00:19:40.020 --> 00:19:44.410 taking ownership over it, starting with introspection, then going to assessing 300 00:19:44.410 --> 00:19:48.640 the situation and then three, figuring out what conversations they need to 301 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.630 have it and having those. If there's one thing you want them to take away 302 00:19:52.630 --> 00:19:57.120 from this conversation, what do you think that would be? Yes. So having the 303 00:19:57.130 --> 00:20:00.830 the introspection and trying to figure out your career path? Nothing. Sentence 304 00:20:00.830 --> 00:20:03.780 Stone. I think you mentioned that at the beginning, right? Be comfortable 305 00:20:03.780 --> 00:20:07.510 with, like that path could change and it's okay if it does, but you're never 306 00:20:07.510 --> 00:20:11.190 gonna get where you're going. If you don't have a like path to get there and 307 00:20:11.190 --> 00:20:14.410 then, you know, be agile, flexible list road changes. I think a lot of us no 308 00:20:14.410 --> 00:20:17.790 one like the work environment we live in, is that things change, and that's 309 00:20:17.790 --> 00:20:22.260 the constant being able to kind of roll with it, putting enough of your effort 310 00:20:22.270 --> 00:20:25.800 in your work into it to kind of get the outcomes that you want. And then when 311 00:20:25.800 --> 00:20:30.200 it comes to the like talking with your boss and having difficult conversations, 312 00:20:30.210 --> 00:20:35.810 I would say own the conversation. I've had some people that have had salary 313 00:20:35.810 --> 00:20:40.010 negotiation conversations with me, and they've either, like, saved it for the 314 00:20:40.010 --> 00:20:42.720 end of our meeting. And now it's not the focus point. And they're they're 315 00:20:42.720 --> 00:20:46.560 rambling on or, you know, like making the first agenda as you're going to a 316 00:20:46.560 --> 00:20:51.520 meeting, be concise, don't ramble, own it and go through your narrative and be 317 00:20:51.520 --> 00:20:57.140 okay with silence. Yes, yes, that's so good. I love that. Be okay with silence 318 00:20:57.150 --> 00:21:01.080 because, you know, you're gonna want to just fill that silence with well, and 319 00:21:01.080 --> 00:21:04.460 this and this and this and you're not going to give them time to process, to 320 00:21:04.460 --> 00:21:08.850 think, to share more with you, which is gonna be valuable for you to understand. 321 00:21:08.860 --> 00:21:12.370 And my wife and I were just talking about this. I think it's a Mark Twain 322 00:21:12.370 --> 00:21:16.710 quote. Originally, eat the frog, meaning, get the thing out of the way 323 00:21:16.710 --> 00:21:19.890 that you know, you need to get done that you dread the most, right at the 324 00:21:19.890 --> 00:21:22.880 beginning. Put it at the top of the agenda. Don't push it off. Don't 325 00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.510 procrastinate and trying to squeeze it in later because then everybody feels 326 00:21:26.510 --> 00:21:29.750 guilty. I'm sorry We ran out of time on the career conversation, and then 327 00:21:29.760 --> 00:21:32.430 you're left wondering. Did they cut that off? Did they really have more 328 00:21:32.430 --> 00:21:36.300 time? Just starting it at the beginning is going to set the tone for you. And 329 00:21:36.300 --> 00:21:41.050 it's also gonna avoid some of that awkwardness, tension and assumptions if 330 00:21:41.050 --> 00:21:44.180 you leave it to the end and And don't really get to have enough time for it. 331 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:48.850 Exactly. Exactly. And then my last thing I think that I would just add to 332 00:21:48.850 --> 00:21:53.070 that is Don't don't make it personal, you know it's not. And that's the 333 00:21:53.070 --> 00:21:56.610 hardest thing I think for us. We all take pride in our work and what we dio. 334 00:21:56.620 --> 00:21:59.480 But at the end of the day of a lot of these things are personal. And as hard 335 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:06.340 as it is to take up many of these many of these things, toe heart don't. Yeah, 336 00:22:06.350 --> 00:22:09.890 I love it. Yeah, Good stuff. Well, Hannah, this has been fantastic. Thank 337 00:22:09.890 --> 00:22:12.750 you for joining me on the show today. If anybody listening to this would like 338 00:22:12.750 --> 00:22:16.540 to stay connected with you, what's the best way for them to do that? LinkedIn. 339 00:22:16.550 --> 00:22:20.790 I'm on it. There's always a tap open of plankton. So, yeah, find me by my name, 340 00:22:20.790 --> 00:22:24.380 can a man's I would love to connect. Awesome. Hanna, Thank you so much. This 341 00:22:24.380 --> 00:22:26.670 has been a really fun conversation. Thank you. 342 00:22:28.940 --> 00:22:33.150 And sweet fish were on a mission to create the most helpful content on the 343 00:22:33.150 --> 00:22:37.720 Internet for every job, function and industry on the planet. For the B two B 344 00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:41.760 marketing industry, this show is how we're executing on that mission. If you 345 00:22:41.760 --> 00:22:45.240 know a marketing leader, that would be an awesome guest for this podcast. 346 00:22:45.250 --> 00:22:48.800 Shoot me a text message. Don't call me because I don't answer unknown numbers, 347 00:22:48.810 --> 00:22:55.540 but text me at 4074903328 Just shoot me. Their name may be a link to their 348 00:22:55.540 --> 00:22:59.360 linked in profile, and I'd love to check him out to see if we can get them 349 00:22:59.360 --> 00:23:01.060 on the show. Thanks a lot
