4 Things Marketing Ops Is Thinking but Won't Tell You

WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.540 --> 00:00:02.740 Yeah. 2 00:00:05.140 --> 00:00:09.240 Welcome back to BB Growth. We are live on clubhouse right now. We're joined by 3 00:00:09.240 --> 00:00:14.860 Charlie and Chrissy Saunders, the co founders of CS two, and they are 4 00:00:15.340 --> 00:00:19.850 experts in marketing operations. I've been seeing more and more folks like 5 00:00:19.850 --> 00:00:24.940 Sarah McNamara talk about marketing ops on LinkedIn. Chrissy and Charlie have 6 00:00:24.940 --> 00:00:27.970 been talking about it for a long time. We had the opportunity to go to a 7 00:00:27.970 --> 00:00:31.090 dinner together a couple years ago in San Francisco. I love the work they're 8 00:00:31.090 --> 00:00:35.590 doing. So Charlie and Christie welcome to our clubhouse, live and and to the 9 00:00:35.590 --> 00:00:40.480 GDP growth audience. I'm really pumped to dive into this topic. Yeah, thank 10 00:00:40.480 --> 00:00:44.940 you very much for having us appreciate you letting us join. Awesome. So? So 11 00:00:44.940 --> 00:00:49.360 we're going to do. We're going to a 15 20 minute interview, and Dan and I will 12 00:00:49.360 --> 00:00:53.110 have some questions for you, and then we'll open it up to our clubhouse 13 00:00:53.120 --> 00:00:56.720 audience. And so if you're listening on GDP growth, then you're not already 14 00:00:56.720 --> 00:01:00.700 following Dan or myself on clubhouse. Make sure to do that at James Carberry 15 00:01:00.700 --> 00:01:04.330 at Dan says, and then you can also follow the GDP Growth Club and learn 16 00:01:04.330 --> 00:01:09.490 more about these talks. So, Charlie, you know, as we were going back and 17 00:01:09.490 --> 00:01:13.240 forth on what the topic was going to be for this, you know, we were talking 18 00:01:13.240 --> 00:01:17.060 about what are the things that your marketing office person you know isn't 19 00:01:17.060 --> 00:01:21.300 going to tell you or probably won't tell you, but they're definitely 20 00:01:21.300 --> 00:01:25.940 thinking it give us a little bit of context background. You said it in your 21 00:01:25.940 --> 00:01:28.880 LinkedIn post when you were promoting the seat of the day. It's not that 22 00:01:28.880 --> 00:01:32.020 they're vindictive or that they're keeping things from you, but give us a 23 00:01:32.020 --> 00:01:34.900 little bit of context before we dive into these for what these four things 24 00:01:34.900 --> 00:01:40.230 are. Yeah. I mean, like I said in Arlington Post, I don't think any 25 00:01:40.230 --> 00:01:45.590 marketing operations person is trying to hide things on purpose. I think you 26 00:01:45.590 --> 00:01:48.960 probably get from maybe the theme from some of these reasons that we come up 27 00:01:48.960 --> 00:01:53.270 with that marketing people are very much people pleasers. They like to keep 28 00:01:53.270 --> 00:01:57.450 people happy. They like to, you know, over deliver. They like to do things 29 00:01:57.450 --> 00:02:00.520 quickly and make sure that every every one of the marketing sales team has 30 00:02:00.520 --> 00:02:04.530 what they need. So sometimes that means they're not like telling everyone the 31 00:02:04.530 --> 00:02:07.950 full picture of kind of, you know, I won't give away any of the details 32 00:02:07.950 --> 00:02:11.260 about what we're gonna do about, but this is some some certain aspects that 33 00:02:11.260 --> 00:02:14.740 maybe they're they're they're holding back so they don't, like, disappoint 34 00:02:14.740 --> 00:02:18.870 people or maybe kind of make things more complicated for people. So that's 35 00:02:18.870 --> 00:02:22.080 kind of a theme that will run through some of these things. But But yeah, 36 00:02:22.090 --> 00:02:24.460 like I said, it's not that they're trying to hide things, to have 37 00:02:24.460 --> 00:02:28.460 vindictive for bad reasons or anything like that. We're marketing up to people 38 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:32.320 have been for 10 years and, you know, you know, we would never say a bad 39 00:02:32.320 --> 00:02:36.390 thing about market helps people. I love it. I love it. So, uh, so Charlie or 40 00:02:36.390 --> 00:02:39.620 Chrissy, let's dive into this first thing. What's the first thing that your 41 00:02:39.620 --> 00:02:43.360 marketing office person won't tell you? But they probably want to tell you. 42 00:02:43.740 --> 00:02:48.230 Yeah, so where we split these half and half, so I've got the first one here. 43 00:02:48.230 --> 00:02:51.580 So everything you ask of your marketing operations person is going to take 44 00:02:51.580 --> 00:02:55.060 longer than you think, and it's probably going to take longer than 45 00:02:55.070 --> 00:02:59.610 they're telling you this is back to the people. Please, This thing you want to 46 00:02:59.610 --> 00:03:02.550 get their nurture set up? You want to implement that tour? You want to set up 47 00:03:02.550 --> 00:03:06.700 this process to do whatever the marketing person, being a people 48 00:03:06.700 --> 00:03:10.490 pleaser, they want to get that done quickly. More often than not, a lot of 49 00:03:10.490 --> 00:03:15.050 the companies that we work for, the BTB tech companies moving fast have to 50 00:03:15.050 --> 00:03:19.200 deliver on things quickly. So they're going to buy into that and tell you, 51 00:03:19.200 --> 00:03:22.860 Yeah, I can do this in a week or I can get this down in a couple of days. But 52 00:03:22.860 --> 00:03:26.710 what they're not telling you is that actually, it really probably needs a 53 00:03:26.710 --> 00:03:30.840 lot longer time than that to make sure you're not going to create a lot of 54 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:35.750 technical debt, any issues down the line. And maybe they do need more time. 55 00:03:35.750 --> 00:03:39.820 Just because it's the task is gonna literally The human couldn't do it any 56 00:03:39.820 --> 00:03:44.850 quicker. Um, so then they're going to end up working nights and weekends, too, 57 00:03:45.240 --> 00:03:49.720 to make it happen. The other thing is, part of that is that you know, every 58 00:03:49.730 --> 00:03:54.020 one of the one of those things. Later on, we'll talk about is technical debt. 59 00:03:54.030 --> 00:03:59.350 But these systems are just getting so unbelievably complicated with now you 60 00:03:59.350 --> 00:04:04.580 know, thousands and thousands of Martek tools, every process that everyone can 61 00:04:04.580 --> 00:04:09.660 imagine trying to bend these tools to their will. So that just adds even more 62 00:04:09.660 --> 00:04:15.840 and more time onto everything that they need to do. So if they're having to 63 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:19.130 rush things done, then that technical debt accumulates. It then takes even 64 00:04:19.130 --> 00:04:24.000 longer for other aspects or other projects that you're working on to get 65 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:28.380 done. So the first one, you know, it just everything takes longer than you 66 00:04:28.380 --> 00:04:31.920 think. So when you are working with your marketing operations team, give 67 00:04:31.920 --> 00:04:35.290 them a bit of leeway. Yes, you might need to get that email out of that 68 00:04:35.290 --> 00:04:40.160 nature set up for that process, set up quickly. But try and give them as much 69 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:44.210 warning as possible so they can have the time that they actually need to get 70 00:04:44.210 --> 00:04:48.300 it done. Makes sense, Chrissy or Dan and anything to add to that. I almost 71 00:04:48.300 --> 00:04:51.490 wonder if there's like a time and a place and a different for different 72 00:04:51.490 --> 00:04:55.080 sizes and different companies when giving leeway. I almost felt like 73 00:04:55.080 --> 00:05:00.640 sometimes people add too much process and too much time for small companies. 74 00:05:00.640 --> 00:05:04.530 When you're like, you know, trying to apply enterprise level processes, the 75 00:05:04.530 --> 00:05:08.670 small companies that becomes like a just a blanket on a fire just sucks out 76 00:05:08.670 --> 00:05:13.040 all the oxygen, right? So how do you know what to do with different stages 77 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:18.260 of like a company? Size is My question makes sense. It does. Yeah, it does. I 78 00:05:18.260 --> 00:05:21.170 think there's a base level that everyone has to be at right, Like if 79 00:05:21.170 --> 00:05:25.880 you're just slacking, marketing up for everything you need them to do, then it 80 00:05:25.880 --> 00:05:28.780 doesn't matter what company size you are. That's probably not the best way 81 00:05:28.780 --> 00:05:34.000 of doing it, right. So there's going to always be some process or a request 82 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:37.360 process that you should be going through, because that just helps the 83 00:05:37.360 --> 00:05:41.620 marketing operations team prioritize. Moat. 99% of marking up teams are 84 00:05:41.620 --> 00:05:46.350 understaffed, so they have to be ruthless prioritization. And if they're 85 00:05:46.350 --> 00:05:50.920 just dealing with whatever the latest slack emergency is, they're not getting 86 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:55.440 to the most important projects. So having a way to at least be able to 87 00:05:55.440 --> 00:06:00.500 document what these tasks are and then be able to prioritize is useful and 88 00:06:00.500 --> 00:06:03.960 when it comes to campaign execution. Getting that nurtures that I'm getting 89 00:06:03.960 --> 00:06:08.730 that email out the door, getting that WEBINAR program set up having just a 90 00:06:08.730 --> 00:06:13.340 well documented process, whatever it is, and you don't over engineer it if 91 00:06:13.340 --> 00:06:18.220 you're a 50 persons starts up but still knowing what are the steps that we need 92 00:06:18.220 --> 00:06:23.210 to go through, like submit that asana form to then get the information that 93 00:06:23.210 --> 00:06:26.380 you need over to the market operations person so they can actually do their 94 00:06:26.380 --> 00:06:30.670 job because so much time is lost in just the back and forth to just get 95 00:06:30.670 --> 00:06:33.990 things done. And that just isn't inefficient, regardless of whatever 96 00:06:33.990 --> 00:06:38.040 company size your app. I mean, it makes a lot of sense. I feel like between 97 00:06:38.040 --> 00:06:40.930 marketing, marketing is kind of like me and James. Right now. It's sweet fish, 98 00:06:40.930 --> 00:06:46.250 and we're just the 25% company. But even then I'm like James. I needed more 99 00:06:46.250 --> 00:06:49.440 than a text message. I mean the text messages, but I'm like I'm gonna have 100 00:06:49.440 --> 00:06:54.000 to extract the information that I need in our next one on one. It's really 101 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:57.430 like the text message. I put it on my put it on our asana list just to talk 102 00:06:57.430 --> 00:07:00.200 about it so I can get the right information. So I'm usually the one 103 00:07:00.210 --> 00:07:03.910 executing coming up with some ideas. But James comes up with lots of ideas. 104 00:07:03.910 --> 00:07:11.200 We have to filter it through the now or later or good idea for someday list. 105 00:07:11.460 --> 00:07:14.950 Chrissy anything to add before we get to the second thing? Your marketing 106 00:07:14.950 --> 00:07:18.340 opera person won't tell, you know, but I think that's a great segue into the 107 00:07:18.340 --> 00:07:22.450 second point. I want to make sure we have enough time to cover all of it. 108 00:07:22.460 --> 00:07:28.090 But it's a really good segue into our second thing that mocks people won't 109 00:07:28.090 --> 00:07:33.230 tell you and and really, that's there's just no such thing as an easy tool to 110 00:07:33.230 --> 00:07:38.880 manage. I think a lot of the times vendors will tell you that their tools 111 00:07:38.890 --> 00:07:44.660 easy to implement and integrate and and really, the fact is, even if it is easy, 112 00:07:44.670 --> 00:07:49.430 um, a lot of times it rarely is. But every time you add in a new tool it 113 00:07:49.430 --> 00:07:53.310 creates an exponential amount of work, so it doesn't just create the amount of 114 00:07:53.310 --> 00:07:57.350 work. Maybe they're telling you it creates an exponential, every new tool 115 00:07:57.350 --> 00:08:01.970 you're adding it has more and more work tied to it because you need to make 116 00:08:01.970 --> 00:08:06.970 sure that when you're adding these tools, the main thing is there's a lot 117 00:08:06.970 --> 00:08:11.710 of, you know, human resources that you need to implement and maintain these. 118 00:08:11.710 --> 00:08:16.320 And the reason for that is you need to figure out where does this tool make 119 00:08:16.320 --> 00:08:21.020 sense and are stuck? You need to make sure there's a, you know, a full plan 120 00:08:21.030 --> 00:08:24.450 for implementing it, and then once you implement it, there's going to be 121 00:08:24.450 --> 00:08:28.510 things that you need, you know, could be impacted that you need to pay 122 00:08:28.510 --> 00:08:32.700 attention to. There's order of operations. There's data flow. There's 123 00:08:32.700 --> 00:08:36.950 even maybe legacy issues that come to the surface that you have to work 124 00:08:36.950 --> 00:08:42.700 around. And so all of this seems, you know, implementation a lot of times 125 00:08:42.700 --> 00:08:48.640 seems simple, and but once you get into it, it's a hell of a lot more work than 126 00:08:48.650 --> 00:08:53.930 what you thought. And so a lot of teens across marketing will select a tool and 127 00:08:53.930 --> 00:08:57.700 then kind of just throw it on the marketing ops teams play and they have 128 00:08:57.700 --> 00:09:02.770 a lot going on already, and they may be in the impression because they're not 129 00:09:02.780 --> 00:09:06.790 technical people, that it's easy, you know, my salesperson told me, This is 130 00:09:06.790 --> 00:09:11.590 easy to implement and so their expectations to start using it and 131 00:09:11.590 --> 00:09:16.380 implement it into their strategy is, you know, a lot different than the 132 00:09:16.380 --> 00:09:20.700 amount of time will actually take to implement. And so they may even be 133 00:09:20.700 --> 00:09:25.970 banking on using this tool to execute their strategy right away. But in the 134 00:09:25.970 --> 00:09:31.160 end, marking office then feels a lot of pressure to implement it. And then just, 135 00:09:31.170 --> 00:09:35.140 you know, like Charlie said, You know where people please, there's we want to 136 00:09:35.140 --> 00:09:39.070 get it done. We want to get it done to the best of our abilities. But in some 137 00:09:39.070 --> 00:09:42.750 ways there's shortcuts that need to be made. There may be some things you're 138 00:09:42.750 --> 00:09:46.630 sacrificing or they're not meeting that deadline, and then that team is a bit 139 00:09:46.630 --> 00:09:52.950 frustrated. So just know that you know, there's no such thing as the easy tool 140 00:09:53.340 --> 00:09:57.280 to manage. And the main thing is the maintenance part to every neutrality 141 00:09:57.280 --> 00:10:02.200 you're adding on, the marketing team has to maintain it, so wouldn't and the 142 00:10:02.210 --> 00:10:07.010 human resources and the marketing team is not always fully staffed the way it 143 00:10:07.010 --> 00:10:12.740 should be given the amount of work that needs to be done, so I think for this 144 00:10:12.740 --> 00:10:16.180 is where empathy comes in. A lot of this is, you know, the things that 145 00:10:16.180 --> 00:10:18.640 they're not telling you. If they did, you actually might have a little bit 146 00:10:18.640 --> 00:10:23.970 more empathy for the marketing ops team and how much work and different 147 00:10:23.970 --> 00:10:28.570 challenges that we're faced with. And and this is a big one that makes all 148 00:10:28.570 --> 00:10:32.680 the sense I want to also make sure that we have enough time for Q and A Charlie. 149 00:10:32.680 --> 00:10:36.700 Do you want to jump in with our third talking point here? Sure, and I'm going 150 00:10:36.700 --> 00:10:41.390 to bring up everyone's favorite thing to hate, which is attribution. It's 151 00:10:41.390 --> 00:10:46.310 almost like a dirty word on LinkedIn these days, and I think that to bring 152 00:10:46.310 --> 00:10:50.760 it to the things that marketing person might tell you is a is a lot of people 153 00:10:50.770 --> 00:10:56.050 outside of market operations who aren't maybe as close to the data or have been 154 00:10:56.050 --> 00:10:59.950 living with, you know attribution tools and reporting tools for a long time. 155 00:11:00.540 --> 00:11:03.890 Kind of see that a lot of this conversation is just kind of missing 156 00:11:03.890 --> 00:11:07.790 the point of attribution and there's a lot of misunderstanding about what it 157 00:11:07.790 --> 00:11:13.160 is. Alison on our team. She phrases this perfectly where she says, 158 00:11:13.540 --> 00:11:18.300 attribution is not there to prove your efforts. It's there to improve your 159 00:11:18.300 --> 00:11:22.260 efforts so everyone thinks like okay if I get this attribution till I can make 160 00:11:22.260 --> 00:11:26.700 marketing look great and like, this is the thing. You know, This webinar was 161 00:11:26.700 --> 00:11:31.180 the thing that created that opportunity, and it's like, Yes and no like that. 162 00:11:31.180 --> 00:11:35.530 Webinar has potentially influence that opportunity, but regardless, that's not 163 00:11:35.530 --> 00:11:39.830 the point. The point is to be able to analyze what is working. Look at the 164 00:11:39.830 --> 00:11:42.960 touch points, look at the channels, look at your campaigns and then use 165 00:11:42.960 --> 00:11:47.460 that information to improve. And it could consistently improve over time. 166 00:11:47.640 --> 00:11:50.530 And the thing about consistently improving over time is you don't have 167 00:11:50.530 --> 00:11:57.160 to improve dramatically every day. If you can just improve 1 to 3% every day 168 00:11:57.160 --> 00:12:00.260 within your decision making in your budget allocation, that's going to 169 00:12:00.260 --> 00:12:04.880 compound to have a massive effect over time. And that's where ATTRIBUTION data 170 00:12:04.890 --> 00:12:10.020 is useful because and one of the things actually that a lot of people hate on 171 00:12:10.020 --> 00:12:14.330 it for is that it doesn't track the kind of quote unquote invisible touch 172 00:12:14.330 --> 00:12:20.480 points like podcast like clubhouse rooms like Linked in Post. But that's 173 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:23.600 fine. Just because it doesn't track that doesn't mean you should throw it 174 00:12:23.600 --> 00:12:27.530 out and not track anything. You still as a human being as a marketer, you 175 00:12:27.530 --> 00:12:32.940 have to use your brain and interpret the data and then come up with the best 176 00:12:32.940 --> 00:12:37.000 way to utilize it and make decisions. And you would factor in these 177 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:42.470 touchpoints that you're not able to track. So this conversation kind of 178 00:12:42.660 --> 00:12:47.600 kind of misses the point. And I think a lot of people in market operations are 179 00:12:47.600 --> 00:12:53.150 scared to kind of say that when they're seeing this this happening and really 180 00:12:53.150 --> 00:12:57.600 they want to say it. But maybe this turned into such a polarized situation 181 00:12:57.600 --> 00:13:01.210 right now with attribution, that is, You know, there's because it's tough. 182 00:13:01.220 --> 00:13:05.020 Yeah, I mean, you've got folks like you know, Chris Walker or gave Gearhart 183 00:13:05.030 --> 00:13:08.910 that are that take a very strong stand on one way, you know, not just 184 00:13:08.910 --> 00:13:11.510 attribution. There's lots of different topics like this and saw somebody 185 00:13:11.510 --> 00:13:15.630 posting the other day about it's been really hot lately to talk about how 186 00:13:15.640 --> 00:13:20.580 life's too short to work for a CEO that doesn't get marketing, and somebody had 187 00:13:20.580 --> 00:13:24.490 a point like, Well, it's not really the CEO's job to get marketing. It's the 188 00:13:24.490 --> 00:13:27.890 marketer's job to convince them of the value of marketing. And so there's 189 00:13:27.890 --> 00:13:32.040 always two sides to that. And I remember actually sharing with somebody 190 00:13:32.040 --> 00:13:37.670 after I saw your post about that idea of attribution is meant to improve. Not 191 00:13:37.680 --> 00:13:42.440 it's not just to prove that would really spoke to me. Chrissy, Let's dive 192 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:46.820 into the fourth thing that marketing your marketing person isn't gonna isn't 193 00:13:46.820 --> 00:13:51.170 going to tell you, and then we'll dive into Q and A sure and Charlie mentioned 194 00:13:51.170 --> 00:13:55.470 at the beginning. But the final thing we want to touch on is technical debt 195 00:13:55.480 --> 00:13:59.520 is worse than you think. And I think this is coming to the forefront and 196 00:13:59.520 --> 00:14:06.160 surface more so now. Like Charlie said, as systems are getting more and more 197 00:14:06.160 --> 00:14:13.060 dated and but we're also adding on more technology and more digital touchpoints 198 00:14:13.540 --> 00:14:17.290 and just more, you know, legacy workflows sitting there, there's 199 00:14:17.300 --> 00:14:21.710 there's a lot of technical debt that marking up people are dealing with, I 200 00:14:21.710 --> 00:14:27.880 mean sales office as well. But a big sign of that is marking as people just 201 00:14:27.880 --> 00:14:31.800 spend way too much time in rabbit holes like chasing, you know, Why did this 202 00:14:31.800 --> 00:14:37.090 thing happen? Why did that thing happen? And that keeps them from actually doing 203 00:14:37.090 --> 00:14:40.750 their day to day jobs because they're constantly chasing this. But many 204 00:14:40.750 --> 00:14:46.340 companies are kind of past that point of no return because the resources 205 00:14:46.340 --> 00:14:51.740 required to fix this technical debt are more than the company has available, or 206 00:14:51.740 --> 00:14:55.350 they would have to literally just stop everything that they're doing to really 207 00:14:55.350 --> 00:14:59.620 fix it. And in some cases this might be warranted or they need to throw more 208 00:14:59.620 --> 00:15:04.530 resources at it. But it continues to accumulate, and it just causes, you 209 00:15:04.530 --> 00:15:09.960 know, a lot of inefficiency, and really, it's not. Mops felt a lot of the time, 210 00:15:09.960 --> 00:15:15.830 so most pros will often inherit systems, and they'll do their best to be. This 211 00:15:15.830 --> 00:15:19.920 will fix issues. This is the main thing Recently, with CS two, we come in, we 212 00:15:19.920 --> 00:15:25.140 do health checks and we we will help the teams actually deal with a lot of 213 00:15:25.140 --> 00:15:30.710 this technical debt. But even beyond that, it's also from different tools 214 00:15:30.710 --> 00:15:34.090 that maybe they don't hold the keys to so salesforce has a lot of technical 215 00:15:34.090 --> 00:15:38.260 debt and now that is impacting marketing ops, work and what they're 216 00:15:38.260 --> 00:15:43.770 doing. And so there's There's a more of a light shine on this, but in some ways 217 00:15:43.770 --> 00:15:48.770 they can't fix it all. But they also don't want to probably, you know, they 218 00:15:48.770 --> 00:15:51.930 don't have the chance to really describe this to the team or they don't 219 00:15:51.930 --> 00:15:56.670 want to throw other teams under the bus or they just can't complain because 220 00:15:56.670 --> 00:16:00.430 there's no no. One really to fix it but themselves that they have these other 221 00:16:00.440 --> 00:16:05.020 goals to hit. So yeah, just technical debt is definitely worse than most 222 00:16:05.020 --> 00:16:09.750 people think, and and it's something to keep in mind as we complicate things. 223 00:16:09.750 --> 00:16:14.290 Really, The whole goal recently is how do we simplify but hasn't been 224 00:16:14.290 --> 00:16:20.540 sophisticated at scales. But let's just anything we do is adding more and more 225 00:16:20.540 --> 00:16:24.410 technical debt or technical debt is keeping us from hitting those goals, so 226 00:16:24.490 --> 00:16:28.860 that makes a lot of sense awesome. Chrissy and Charlie, I want to open it 227 00:16:28.860 --> 00:16:33.710 up to the rest of the audience. Now if if anybody has any questions around 228 00:16:33.710 --> 00:16:37.370 marketing ops, for those of you that have joined recently, Charlie and 229 00:16:37.370 --> 00:16:40.250 Christie have been talking about four things your marketing ops person won't 230 00:16:40.250 --> 00:16:44.540 tell you. And we're going to be posting this on our podcast to be good. So if 231 00:16:44.540 --> 00:16:46.760 you're interested in the rest of the conversation you came in halfway 232 00:16:46.760 --> 00:16:51.650 through, just subscribe to be growth podcast. Wherever you listen to your 233 00:16:51.650 --> 00:16:55.210 podcast, you can listen to the entire conversation in a few days when it's 234 00:16:55.210 --> 00:16:59.010 live. But, Dan, any thoughts on what Christie just shared? I think the only 235 00:16:59.010 --> 00:17:03.110 thing that I was thinking the whole time is like, man, they're absolutely 236 00:17:03.110 --> 00:17:07.280 right. It does get hard to keep everything to date and to keep things 237 00:17:07.280 --> 00:17:11.800 going, I almost wanted, like, a part two of, like strategies to keep things 238 00:17:11.800 --> 00:17:16.339 clean and keep things working smoothly. But that's probably a little bit beyond 239 00:17:16.339 --> 00:17:18.560 the scope of what we're gonna talk about in this clubhouse. But I'm 240 00:17:18.560 --> 00:17:23.000 thinking part two would be fun to show. Yeah, we got a lot of opinions on that 241 00:17:23.010 --> 00:17:27.960 Billy Background software engineering. You're also a growth market or product 242 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:31.950 leader. What? What is your question or comment for Charlie and Christine 243 00:17:31.950 --> 00:17:35.940 around marketing ops? Well, Christina, you're I think James gave me a little 244 00:17:35.940 --> 00:17:40.610 bit of credit. I'm a software engineer, so I feel your pain on technical debt, 245 00:17:40.620 --> 00:17:47.950 Uh, and also the difficulty to recognize it and then act upon it. It's 246 00:17:47.950 --> 00:17:51.810 always like you run into something where you realize you're battling more 247 00:17:51.810 --> 00:17:55.860 than you're actually creating, and it's really difficult for leadership to 248 00:17:55.860 --> 00:18:02.320 understand that it's a problem that needs to be fixed. But the system still 249 00:18:02.320 --> 00:18:06.220 works to a certain extent, you know. So I just want to reinforce that. I think 250 00:18:06.220 --> 00:18:09.690 that that is a real problem and that it's bubbling up the marketing office 251 00:18:09.700 --> 00:18:14.160 where I feel like a lot of times it's, um, manifested itself in the technical 252 00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:19.630 teams is, uh, is, uh, encouraging to hear someone say that, uh, I guess my 253 00:18:19.630 --> 00:18:24.490 question it's actually a little bit different than that. My question is 254 00:18:24.500 --> 00:18:29.100 something I've noticed lately, and I'm not sure that I've not noticed in the 255 00:18:29.100 --> 00:18:33.840 past. But it's something that's bubbled up more frequently is applications that 256 00:18:33.840 --> 00:18:36.890 are completely interdependent of each other. So I'm sure you all are 257 00:18:36.890 --> 00:18:40.970 implementing different tools, and each one of these tools are dependent on an 258 00:18:40.980 --> 00:18:46.410 integration with another service. And I wonder how many tools. Do you run into 259 00:18:46.410 --> 00:18:51.150 that provide value outside of integrations in terms of just like it's 260 00:18:51.150 --> 00:18:56.460 to stand alone? And it has some Something is helping the marketing team 261 00:18:56.460 --> 00:19:00.470 with, but it's just not integrated into your full stack. Yeah, exactly. So you 262 00:19:00.470 --> 00:19:04.200 know, clubhouse. We're on an app right now that really does not integrate with 263 00:19:04.210 --> 00:19:08.600 any other services, but it provides us independent value, and I don't find 264 00:19:08.600 --> 00:19:14.210 very many of those tools on the B two b market. And so I'm really interested if 265 00:19:14.210 --> 00:19:17.850 you'll find any tools that you know outside of they integrate with, like 266 00:19:17.860 --> 00:19:21.480 your primary data set. I think that that's something that's really 267 00:19:21.480 --> 00:19:26.100 difficult to not at least integrate with. But, like it's not interdependent 268 00:19:26.100 --> 00:19:31.190 on Salesforce or is not dependent on, you know, hubspot giving you some level 269 00:19:31.190 --> 00:19:34.610 of information like I'm just wondering, Are there any tools that you've run 270 00:19:34.610 --> 00:19:38.630 across recently that are like, man, we got so much value out of that, but and 271 00:19:38.630 --> 00:19:42.520 it didn't have to talk to every tool in the world. Yeah, Christie, if you want 272 00:19:42.520 --> 00:19:48.500 to jump in, I would say in our line of work, I'm sure there's tools out there 273 00:19:48.500 --> 00:19:54.890 But there's a heavy. There's a heavy need for integrations and a lot of the 274 00:19:54.890 --> 00:20:00.300 tools that we consult on. That is all part of the same picture, which is, you 275 00:20:00.300 --> 00:20:03.480 know, all integrated together and doesn't have to be like dependent on 276 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:07.310 Salesforce data. But it could be updating Salesforce data or pushing 277 00:20:07.320 --> 00:20:13.760 data into Salesforce. So I'm struggling to think of at all that we specifically 278 00:20:13.760 --> 00:20:16.690 consultant, that isn't tightened somehow. 279 00:20:17.770 --> 00:20:23.560 Any thoughts The only ones that come to mind are It's really around, like 280 00:20:23.570 --> 00:20:29.780 building your brand or or creating communication, you know, or engagement. 281 00:20:29.780 --> 00:20:33.510 And Charlie touched on some of those you know, implied attribution 282 00:20:33.510 --> 00:20:39.220 Touchpoints, and he called them invisible. But for things like podcast 283 00:20:39.220 --> 00:20:44.700 like you said clubhouse or, you know, linked in organic posts or just things 284 00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:48.650 that are boosting your brand, it's really hard to get thought data, you 285 00:20:48.650 --> 00:20:53.390 know, or anything back into your system, and we wouldn't expect people to. But 286 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:58.720 from actual system standpoint, especially in B two b, the full picture 287 00:20:58.720 --> 00:21:02.220 is is really what we want to track, and we want to make sure there's no siloed 288 00:21:02.220 --> 00:21:07.430 tools. So all the time we do rely on integration and because we want, you 289 00:21:07.430 --> 00:21:12.410 know, the whole customer journey needs to make sense and and seeing all of 290 00:21:12.410 --> 00:21:18.270 that having it be, you know, cohesive and it's super important. So a lot of 291 00:21:18.270 --> 00:21:22.790 times, you know, we look to we needed to be integrated. We need to be able to 292 00:21:22.790 --> 00:21:27.430 send this data over to, you know, even tools that say they integrate. I have 293 00:21:27.430 --> 00:21:30.840 some issues with some of the integration and how you get data across 294 00:21:30.840 --> 00:21:35.740 your accounts into it or or ownership, and that causes issues. But it's a 295 00:21:35.740 --> 00:21:40.610 really great question because in time he did. There aren't really many, 296 00:21:40.620 --> 00:21:44.210 mainly because we need to tie these touchpoints together. And we need that 297 00:21:44.210 --> 00:21:50.570 customer journey to be something that we can have 100% insight into and have 298 00:21:50.570 --> 00:21:56.170 control over. I guess maybe that there's tools that a demand market or 299 00:21:56.170 --> 00:21:59.770 growth market would just use independently of the marketing ops team. 300 00:22:00.140 --> 00:22:03.210 But generally I think when it gets on to the marketing of teams table, it's 301 00:22:03.210 --> 00:22:07.690 like, how do I integrate this into my full stack, which is generally you mark 302 00:22:07.750 --> 00:22:11.450 the two big things your marketing automation platform and and salesforce 303 00:22:11.450 --> 00:22:14.860 because you want that data actionable for the sales team? You on that data 304 00:22:14.860 --> 00:22:17.620 actionable for the marketing team. So you need it in those systems to be able 305 00:22:17.620 --> 00:22:22.070 to action on it, because that's where those two teams are living. So So I 306 00:22:22.070 --> 00:22:27.930 think maybe it's just a a consequence of our role that we what comes onto our 307 00:22:27.930 --> 00:22:31.910 desk generally, it's like, Okay, how do we integrate this into us that but it 308 00:22:31.910 --> 00:22:34.860 doesn't mean there aren't tools out there that teams are using 309 00:22:34.860 --> 00:22:39.740 independently. I think maybe there's a difference between ones that integrate 310 00:22:39.740 --> 00:22:42.930 and then, like, kind of sit on top of. So there's a lot of especially if 311 00:22:42.930 --> 00:22:47.700 you're a product, let's focus. There's a lot of like tools that you can, and 312 00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:51.690 it's integrated at that point. But have on your application itself that's 313 00:22:51.690 --> 00:22:56.750 helping, you know, with a B testing or gathering survey insights or sending 314 00:22:56.750 --> 00:23:00.820 them down certain documentation, paths and stuff like that where you don't 315 00:23:00.820 --> 00:23:05.800 need all of that data connected to your other platforms. But it is, you know, 316 00:23:05.810 --> 00:23:12.650 really helping as a value add for that product experience. So, Billy, do we 317 00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:15.270 just for a clubhouse terms and conditions ability. We have your 318 00:23:15.270 --> 00:23:20.330 permission to share your voice on the podcast. Absolutely awesome. One quick 319 00:23:20.340 --> 00:23:25.310 comment to that. I think it's also a product of scale, right? Like when you 320 00:23:25.310 --> 00:23:29.030 actually need a marketing ops person within a business, you're probably 321 00:23:29.030 --> 00:23:32.430 reaching a scale in which the integrations or the communication 322 00:23:32.430 --> 00:23:37.340 across different platforms is an integral part of the strategy that 323 00:23:37.340 --> 00:23:40.520 you're trying to execute again. So that that makes sense. I've just kind of 324 00:23:40.520 --> 00:23:44.100 been, you know, idea idea waiting around. This thing is, there's very few 325 00:23:44.100 --> 00:23:48.440 products that are interdependent or do not have to integrate with everything. 326 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:51.340 I think notion might be one that's kind of closest, where you can actually 327 00:23:51.340 --> 00:23:56.050 build a set of communication inside a tool that doesn't necessarily have to 328 00:23:56.050 --> 00:23:59.600 talk to other tools. So awesome. Thank you. Thanks a lot for the question, 329 00:23:59.600 --> 00:24:03.720 Billy. My question kind of enclosing and based on something Billy just 330 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:09.060 mentioned Charlie and Chrissy. What scale or what size of a company is it 331 00:24:09.060 --> 00:24:13.390 typical that you would make your first marketing ops higher? That's a great 332 00:24:13.390 --> 00:24:17.560 question. We actually did a bit of research on this a few years back, and 333 00:24:17.940 --> 00:24:22.760 I think Christie Oh, the ratio was generally like in the best companies, 334 00:24:22.760 --> 00:24:29.760 like an 8 to 1 in terms of marketers to marketing ops people for a while. And I 335 00:24:29.760 --> 00:24:33.350 think that so it doesn't mean that when you get to eight people, you should 336 00:24:33.350 --> 00:24:38.910 hire one. I think the definite requirement is that if you don't have 337 00:24:38.910 --> 00:24:42.500 one, you're you should have someone on your team that is technical enough, 338 00:24:42.500 --> 00:24:46.380 right? Because if you if you just got a team and you start implementing at all 339 00:24:46.380 --> 00:24:50.670 like Marquita and start adding, you know, drift sixth sense, you know, 340 00:24:50.680 --> 00:24:54.530 demand. But like all of these additional tools in the stack and 341 00:24:54.540 --> 00:24:58.730 you've got that one person like a demand gen manager trying to manage it, 342 00:24:58.730 --> 00:25:03.830 and they don't really have much background in that you're going to just 343 00:25:03.830 --> 00:25:10.150 create just such a monster that will be. And that's just going to just sink and 344 00:25:10.160 --> 00:25:13.290 you'll have. Once you do hire the marketing person, then they're going to 345 00:25:13.290 --> 00:25:17.960 have a lot of work on their hands. So I think it's less about team size and 346 00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:21.960 more about the complexity of your marketing and when you should hire that 347 00:25:21.960 --> 00:25:25.850 first person and if you are if you are going to implement, you know, big tours 348 00:25:25.850 --> 00:25:30.100 like Marcato you need. Somebody knows what they're doing. Yeah, and I think 349 00:25:30.100 --> 00:25:35.030 that covid might have changed that a little bit. That ratio, where you have 350 00:25:35.040 --> 00:25:38.520 more and more your touch points are digital. You may be doing less in 351 00:25:38.520 --> 00:25:43.210 person events, so I think we're seeing maybe even a shift and maybe dollars 352 00:25:43.210 --> 00:25:47.740 that would go to someone who's usually like coordinating field events or 353 00:25:47.740 --> 00:25:51.400 something like that will actually go to a market knots person because they're 354 00:25:51.400 --> 00:25:56.160 integral to, like, scaling these type of digital touch points out, and it 355 00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:59.990 doesn't need that other role. I don't think that those roles are still super 356 00:25:59.990 --> 00:26:03.990 important in our part. Should be part of the team. But I do think that 357 00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:07.740 companies now are investing more in their marketing team as they should. 358 00:26:07.750 --> 00:26:12.790 Awesome. Well, we are. We are right at our time for today. Charlie and 359 00:26:12.790 --> 00:26:17.190 Christie. How can folks listening on clubhouse and B two b growth stay 360 00:26:17.190 --> 00:26:21.960 connected with you? Yeah, All the usual stuff. Really? So we're on LinkedIn. We 361 00:26:21.960 --> 00:26:25.610 tried to add to the community there. You're putting out a lot of great 362 00:26:25.610 --> 00:26:29.340 content. Both of you are there, so I can I cannot reinforce that for anybody 363 00:26:29.340 --> 00:26:31.900 listening. If you're not already following Charlie Christiane Lincoln, 364 00:26:31.900 --> 00:26:35.760 you should be well. We learned a lot from from you guys and the transparency 365 00:26:35.770 --> 00:26:40.740 your team has on linked in and how much you put out in terms of best practices 366 00:26:40.740 --> 00:26:44.770 and everything. So thanks for that. And then we have our own podcast, which is 367 00:26:45.140 --> 00:26:49.720 forward thinking podcasts you can find in all the other podcast channels and 368 00:26:49.730 --> 00:26:54.340 websites. Just CST marketing dot com Love it Wonderful, Dan. Anything before 369 00:26:54.340 --> 00:26:58.520 we let Charlie and Christie go and close this one down. Only that as 370 00:26:58.530 --> 00:27:01.250 somebody coming from the B to C marketing side and usually smaller 371 00:27:01.250 --> 00:27:06.520 teams, it's making a lot of sense. Why sometimes struggle to scale marketing? 372 00:27:06.520 --> 00:27:10.260 I'm like, Oh, there's like a whole team of people in marketing ops That usually 373 00:27:10.260 --> 00:27:13.850 helps with all those things that I've usually been doing it all myself. So, 374 00:27:14.340 --> 00:27:18.470 as a marketing team of one currently at sweet Fish, I feel a little bit of 375 00:27:18.470 --> 00:27:24.630 relief and that it's not. It's not just usually that one person job, but at the 376 00:27:24.630 --> 00:27:28.210 same time one person can still get a lot done. It's fantastic to hear from 377 00:27:28.210 --> 00:27:32.020 you guys as far as what you're doing and the steps you're taking to bring 378 00:27:32.020 --> 00:27:36.810 clarity to add. I don't know to help marketing teams essentially flow more 379 00:27:36.810 --> 00:27:40.460 smoothly. Wonderful. Thank you, Charlie and Christie for joining us. This has 380 00:27:40.460 --> 00:27:44.760 been fantastic. This will be live again. Are this is live now and clubhouse? 381 00:27:44.760 --> 00:27:49.010 It'll it'll go up on beauty growth in the next few days. So if you caught 382 00:27:49.010 --> 00:27:52.260 halfway through the conversation, make sure to go and subscribe to be growth. 383 00:27:52.270 --> 00:27:56.060 Listen to it there and for all of you joining us live today. Thank you all so 384 00:27:56.060 --> 00:28:00.100 much for being here, Billy, thanks to your question. And we'll be doing this 385 00:28:00.100 --> 00:28:05.010 again tomorrow. So I'll see you back here at noon. Eastern time tomorrow. 386 00:28:05.010 --> 00:28:05.850 And clubhouse. Y'all 387 00:28:08.240 --> 00:28:12.180 is the decision maker for your product or service at BBB marketer. Are you 388 00:28:12.180 --> 00:28:16.390 looking to reach those buyers through the medium of podcasting? Considered 389 00:28:16.390 --> 00:28:21.610 becoming a co host of GDP growth, this show is consistently ranked as a top 390 00:28:21.610 --> 00:28:25.750 100 podcast in the marketing category of Apple podcasts, and the show gets 391 00:28:25.750 --> 00:28:31.330 more than 130,000 downloads each month. We've already done the work of building 392 00:28:31.330 --> 00:28:35.360 the audience so you can focus on delivering incredible content to our 393 00:28:35.360 --> 00:28:39.760 listeners if you're interested. Email Logan at sweet fish media dot com.