5 Elements of Successful Messaging, with Darr Gerscovich

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B Growth. 2 00:00:16.519 --> 00:00:19.640 Welcome in to be to Be Growth. I'm your host, Benji Block, 3 00:00:19.800 --> 00:00:24.760 and today I am joined by Dar Gersovich, vice president of marketing at Appian, 4 00:00:24.960 --> 00:00:28.320 and Dar, it's great to have you on the show today. It's 5 00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:31.559 great to be here. I appreciate it. Okay, So I'll give you 6 00:00:31.640 --> 00:00:34.880 kind of a peek behind the curtain, if you will, because in the 7 00:00:34.960 --> 00:00:37.759 last couple of months here on the show on B two B Growth, we've 8 00:00:37.799 --> 00:00:43.039 kind of gone back and forth in I would say privately, like in meetings, 9 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:47.320 on Slack text messages, but then also we've been sort of documenting publicly 10 00:00:47.520 --> 00:00:50.200 on a little mini series we've been doing on the show called The Journey. 11 00:00:50.479 --> 00:00:53.880 We're just talking and like trying to drill down on the language we use our 12 00:00:54.039 --> 00:00:58.719 messaging. How do we be clear about what we're about, who we're trying 13 00:00:58.719 --> 00:01:03.159 to serve our unique point of view. And you'll know that like develops over 14 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:06.719 time, right, there's change that happens there and you're just always kind of 15 00:01:06.840 --> 00:01:11.120 tweaking and trying to figure it out. So the marketers listening are going to 16 00:01:11.200 --> 00:01:15.120 know while messaging is crucial It's also one of those things that can land you 17 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:18.439 in meetings that make you want to pull your hair out. When was the 18 00:01:18.480 --> 00:01:22.439 first time that you were placed in a real world situation where you saw kind 19 00:01:22.439 --> 00:01:27.920 of firsthand the importance and the power of messaging. That's a good question. 20 00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:32.760 I think I would go back as far as I remember, I would go 21 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:36.760 back to college. So my game, my job in college, I was 22 00:01:36.799 --> 00:01:41.640 a campus tour guide right UCSC campus tourret It was a blast, but essentially 23 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:47.040 forty five minutes, I would walk a group of students, prospective students and 24 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:51.920 their parents Brown Campus, and it was really I learned really quickly that I 25 00:01:52.000 --> 00:01:55.519 actually, even though it was one group, there were two distinct audiences with 26 00:01:55.640 --> 00:01:57.879 distinct interests, right, I think about it's two different target personas. There 27 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:01.799 were students that cared about one thing and parents their parents that carried about something 28 00:02:01.799 --> 00:02:06.719 else, and frequently they were totally in seperate worlds, and so needing to 29 00:02:07.400 --> 00:02:10.840 kind of communicate to both of them at the same time with different messages kind 30 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:15.560 of made me realize, I would say, the importance of the power of 31 00:02:15.599 --> 00:02:20.479 the message. I also learned how to walk back, walk and talk backwards 32 00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:23.879 a scale that really hasn't helped me since then, But you never know. 33 00:02:24.400 --> 00:02:28.479 I can see that'd being a valuable's go you definitely need as a tour guide. 34 00:02:28.759 --> 00:02:34.560 Okay, so ah. A working definition of marketing messaging might be something 35 00:02:34.599 --> 00:02:38.080 along the lines of how a brand communicates to its market and customers, how 36 00:02:38.120 --> 00:02:43.080 a brand highlights the value of its product or services. I know, for 37 00:02:43.159 --> 00:02:46.639 me personally, when I think of things when it comes to messaging, I'm 38 00:02:46.639 --> 00:02:50.840 thinking of some sort of differentiated point of view the language you use. Maybe 39 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:55.319 refine for me what you would say when it comes to like, what marketing 40 00:02:55.319 --> 00:02:59.800 messaging is? Am I missing anything there? So? I think you said 41 00:02:59.800 --> 00:03:02.919 that, how right? How can be that the tone, the approach, 42 00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:07.840 the style, the what you put out there? That those are the words, 43 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:10.639 right, those are the values, those are the So the what I 44 00:03:10.639 --> 00:03:16.639 think is super important And the other thing I think I would emphasize is this 45 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:21.840 is so critical to everything we do. Right. So, if you think 46 00:03:21.879 --> 00:03:24.759 of of marketing, clearly it's always about a target persona, But once you 47 00:03:25.159 --> 00:03:29.639 lock on that persona, it's about the message to them, and that message 48 00:03:29.680 --> 00:03:34.159 that you deliver to them applies across everything you do in marketing, right, 49 00:03:34.199 --> 00:03:37.960 so it's almost the very first brick you lay in the foundation. Right when 50 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:40.039 you write ad copy, it needs to align with the message. Right when 51 00:03:40.039 --> 00:03:44.479 you're when you're writing on your website, it needs to relign with the message. 52 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:46.159 Right, when you're doing a data sheet, it needs to relign with 53 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:49.039 the message. Right. You see where this is going. And the same 54 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:52.879 actually for sales. I would argue, right, anytime sales is speaking to 55 00:03:52.919 --> 00:03:57.000 somebody across the table or across the video screen, however, may be like 56 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:00.319 you, you need to be communicating a certain messag so the you know, 57 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:03.280 I often use an analogy. I don't know if it's a good one, 58 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:05.360 but I like it, so I'll share it with you, which is the 59 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:09.919 following, which is, think of a rocket ship, right, so that 60 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:14.199 our messaging is our rocket ship. If at launch it's a few inches or 61 00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:16.759 a few centimeters off, by the time it gets out of space, it's 62 00:04:16.759 --> 00:04:21.040 gonna be miles or kilometers off, right, And so it really is like, 63 00:04:21.079 --> 00:04:25.000 the more time you spend on messaging and get it right, it's going 64 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:28.759 to drive tremendous efficiency. Kind of through all of the efforts that you do 65 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:30.800 in marketing. I think you bring up a good point as well, because 66 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:35.600 you can tell alignment is shaky sometimes because the messaging in the way that we 67 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:41.519 tell our story can be vastly different in those two different departments. Yeah, 68 00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:45.519 you know, it's I I observe the same thing, particularly around corporate messaging. 69 00:04:45.680 --> 00:04:48.639 So when I think of corporate messaging, it's it's the message that the 70 00:04:48.639 --> 00:04:51.959 company puts out at the hundred thousand foot level, right, So it's not 71 00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:58.000 targeted to a specific audience. It's targeted to prospects, to partners, to 72 00:04:58.120 --> 00:05:00.879 investors, right, So it's a really high level them. And basically corporate 73 00:05:00.959 --> 00:05:04.079 messaging sets the guard rails. In other words, the message has to fall 74 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:10.879 between these two garden rails. Now, the sales team, when they're engaging 75 00:05:10.920 --> 00:05:14.439 with somebody, they're not at the hundred thousand foot level. They know or 76 00:05:14.480 --> 00:05:16.399 they should know exactly who they're talking to, right, and so then they 77 00:05:16.399 --> 00:05:19.759 needed a tailor of that message. And I personally think it's really important that 78 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:25.560 sales is giving the freedom to use and express the words that they feel are 79 00:05:25.639 --> 00:05:29.240 right and comfortable with them, so they come off as authentic, but the 80 00:05:29.279 --> 00:05:32.000 words they use have to fall within those boundaries. If they're outside of those 81 00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:35.600 guard rails. That's where we run into into issues because whoever it's across the 82 00:05:35.639 --> 00:05:40.040 table is gonna it's gonna recognize that there's a dissidence. I'm getting one thing 83 00:05:40.079 --> 00:05:42.480 from the company and I'm getting another thing from you, and they don't drive 84 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:45.879 right. Yeah, for the B two B marketers listening, give me like 85 00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:49.920 a couple examples, real world examples of where you feel like marketing teams in 86 00:05:49.959 --> 00:05:54.319 the B two B space easily get it wrong when it comes to messaging. 87 00:05:54.879 --> 00:05:58.519 Yeah, And you're right, we can easily get it wrong, and unfortunately 88 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:01.680 we often do. I'm gonna go back to my I told you I was 89 00:06:01.720 --> 00:06:04.920 doing a consulting gig for for a few years, right where I worked with 90 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:09.040 just a handful of clients. It was a lot of fun. A couple 91 00:06:09.040 --> 00:06:12.360 of clients I had in that during that time. You were in the drone 92 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:15.879 tech space, right, So I'm not going to give you a brand name 93 00:06:15.920 --> 00:06:18.360 to let's say, to Protective Innocent, but let me just kind of share 94 00:06:18.439 --> 00:06:24.399 with you their description. Don't be a short description and actually have you respond 95 00:06:24.480 --> 00:06:29.319 to what you think of it. Right. So, this particular company describes 96 00:06:29.439 --> 00:06:38.000 themselves as the eponymous cloud software platform for commercial drons. So I'll say it 97 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:40.360 again just to let it sink in, and then I would love your response. 98 00:06:40.439 --> 00:06:46.680 Right, the Eponymous cloud software platform for commercial Germans Eponymous. What do 99 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:50.279 you take away from it? I take away that I would never want to 100 00:06:50.319 --> 00:06:56.759 be asked eponymous in a spelling be Okay, well, let's break it down 101 00:06:56.759 --> 00:07:01.000 in parts. What category is this company in drone? Drone? Okay, 102 00:07:01.199 --> 00:07:04.360 that part was clear, right? And are they B two B drone or 103 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:09.519 are they consumer drones? Not sure? Yeah? Well okay, well I'm 104 00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:11.680 sure if you had a right in front of you they said commercial dronals, 105 00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:15.680 right, so B two B. Now you you've right away picked up an 106 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:18.759 eponymous And of course that that was onto that probably too hard, right. 107 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:25.040 Eponymous is like the thing something is named after. So the an example would 108 00:07:25.079 --> 00:07:30.800 be Achilles is the eponym for Achilles. Heel right, it's named after that. 109 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:33.839 So what I think these these folks were going after was they were trying 110 00:07:33.879 --> 00:07:36.240 to say that the drones, you know, they're they're one of the early 111 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:41.920 founders in the drone space, right. And I've been in these meetings I 112 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:44.959 had I wasn't in the room, but I feel like I was in the 113 00:07:45.040 --> 00:07:46.279 room, right, like, and so how did this go down in my 114 00:07:46.319 --> 00:07:49.360 mind? All Right, what are we gonna say about ourselves? Well, 115 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:54.279 why don't we say we're the best. It's kind of it's it's kind of 116 00:07:54.279 --> 00:07:57.439 loose. Lawyers might come after. But what if we say we're next gen? 117 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:00.279 Right? Everyone loves next time? Well, that's so over use. 118 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:03.879 And so they kind of threw out a bunch of adjectives and landed on eponymous, 119 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:11.600 which I can guarantee of the US population, global population has no idea 120 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:15.120 what that means. Right, but here we are right unless, of course, 121 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:18.959 this drone tech company was targeting literature majors, and I can guarantee the 122 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:22.480 or not. So this isn't This isn't an issue of oh well, we're 123 00:08:22.480 --> 00:08:26.000 just not in their target audience. This is an example of using jargon that 124 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:28.839 is totally irrelevant. So, like, you know, the takeaway here is 125 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:33.120 you've got to put it down to a fifth grader level. We're off. 126 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:37.919 We're oftentimes too close to our products, too close to our message, and 127 00:08:37.919 --> 00:08:41.799 we assume others know what we mean. Um, And and actually, now 128 00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:45.159 that I say it out loud, I had my younger son is a fifth 129 00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:46.720 grader. Maybe we should aim for a third grade. He's got a grade 130 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:52.360 vocabulary, So yeah, keep it very very simple about I don't know more 131 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:58.360 or less fifteen years than to my my BDB tech journey. In my career, 132 00:08:58.919 --> 00:09:03.320 I had the opportunity to create my own consultant B two B tech startup 133 00:09:03.399 --> 00:09:07.080 consulting company, and so I was focused on just a handful of clients at 134 00:09:07.080 --> 00:09:11.879 a time, and it gave me a moment to pause and think, because 135 00:09:11.879 --> 00:09:16.039 when where you know, when you're working at a startup, you're always sprinting, 136 00:09:16.240 --> 00:09:18.720 right like, so to to kind of take some space, it's really 137 00:09:18.759 --> 00:09:20.679 really hard to do. But I kind of reflected back and said, well, 138 00:09:20.759 --> 00:09:26.320 what are the things that really worked and how can I transfer this knowledge 139 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:30.440 to others? And so I boiled essentially created this friendwork with five key elements 140 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:33.159 based on my experiences, and I, you know, it's something that I 141 00:09:33.240 --> 00:09:37.159 still use today. Is a matter of fact that Appy and I'd run an 142 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:41.799 annual messaging workshop and this is kind of the core part of it. Obviously, 143 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:45.639 this is a audio medium, right you're listening to this podcast while you're 144 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:48.639 driving in the car, or you're on a run, or you're doing the 145 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:54.320 dishes right now. But if you'd imagine that there's essentially a circle and there's 146 00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:58.360 like an inner ring and then like the outer ring cut into four pieces, 147 00:09:58.440 --> 00:10:01.440 you have four seas and then the D is kind of that second circle on 148 00:10:01.480 --> 00:10:05.399 the outside. Walk us through this, uh, this graphic if you would, 149 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:09.159 and what you think helps clarify our messaging. Yeah, happy to it. 150 00:10:09.240 --> 00:10:11.840 So I refer to the as you just you just said it yourself, 151 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:13.919 high refer this framework is the four seas plus D were four C and D 152 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:18.759 right, and so the very first one is concise, right, So a 153 00:10:18.799 --> 00:10:24.919 message has to be concise. We we know that in this today's world, 154 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:28.200 right is, everyone has attention deficit disorder. There's too much going on, 155 00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:31.519 so it's got to be it's gotta be short, right, And we have 156 00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:35.799 a tendency as marketers to want to explain and put in a lot of things. 157 00:10:35.840 --> 00:10:41.240 So then we have we're learning multiple messages and the other pieces that particularly 158 00:10:41.320 --> 00:10:46.200 if there's somebody's technical in the room, they really want to be exact and 159 00:10:46.240 --> 00:10:50.000 precise, and so we we quickly go from a concise message to a bloaded 160 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:52.759 message. That's a challenge that we need to fight. It needs to be 161 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:56.159 clear, right, and the message we were just joking around about this drum 162 00:10:56.240 --> 00:11:01.240 text startup right, like clear is not as easy as we think because we 163 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:05.200 often are thinking of ourselves as opposed to the target audience. Right, So 164 00:11:05.799 --> 00:11:09.480 we've got to remove the jar gram and remove the buzzwords. Keep it short, 165 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:13.519 keep it for a third grade to understand. So we're you know, 166 00:11:13.559 --> 00:11:18.600 we've covered clear, We've covered concise. The third see is compelling. It's 167 00:11:18.639 --> 00:11:22.440 got to be compelling, not to you, not to the sales team, 168 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.399 not to your manager's gotta be compelling to your target audience. Right. Is 169 00:11:26.440 --> 00:11:31.039 this something that's relevant to them? Right? Is this something that it's a 170 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:33.879 challenge that they're trying to prioritize and solve. Is it tugging that their emotional 171 00:11:33.919 --> 00:11:39.440 heart strings? Right? So compelling? The fourth see after clear, concise 172 00:11:39.480 --> 00:11:43.519 and compelling, is credible. This is often overlooked. But is this message 173 00:11:43.799 --> 00:11:50.720 critical? Sorry, credible coming from this organization. I think the classic example 174 00:11:50.759 --> 00:11:54.759 here over the last maybe several years was was in the crypto space, right, 175 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:58.559 Like, I felt like every day there was a new crypto coin coming 176 00:11:58.559 --> 00:12:03.639 out and the you know, it was earn easy money, right, very 177 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:05.720 quickly it was clear, it was concise, it was compelling. Of course 178 00:12:05.720 --> 00:12:09.399 I want to earn easy money, Like who's behind it? I know, 179 00:12:09.519 --> 00:12:13.159 three guys out of the garage or out of the coffee giz, I don't 180 00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:18.919 know, not going to that many invested. I probably so clear, concise, 181 00:12:18.960 --> 00:12:22.320 compelling, credible, and then the last one is differentiated. You can 182 00:12:22.399 --> 00:12:26.240 meet your your first four sees the clear, concise, compelling, incredible, 183 00:12:26.600 --> 00:12:31.320 But if it's not differentiated, it's gonna fall flat. Right. And this 184 00:12:31.399 --> 00:12:35.440 is this is actually really tough because again, it doesn't mean it's differentiated to 185 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:39.320 us. It's gonna be differentiated to target audience. Compelling differentiation is not like, 186 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:41.720 oh, I've got a coffee mug. One is white, woman is 187 00:12:41.759 --> 00:12:43.840 black. That's usually not enough to you know, get you over the hurdle. 188 00:12:43.879 --> 00:12:48.039 It gets me to buy it. Another challenging thing is, you know, 189 00:12:48.279 --> 00:12:52.639 competitors all copy one, right, So so I say I'm the fastest 190 00:12:52.639 --> 00:12:54.519 today, tomorrow you say you're the fastest. And then from the you know, 191 00:12:54.759 --> 00:12:58.200 poor target audience is trying to figure out flat from fiction and they have 192 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:01.360 no idea, and so you needed to go beyond that. But those are 193 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:07.360 the four quick run through of the four seas and D is clear, concise, 194 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:11.559 compelling, credible, and differentiated. When you think of the four seas 195 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:15.159 specifically, where do you think most B two B companies are getting it wrong? 196 00:13:15.639 --> 00:13:18.639 Clear? We tend to stumble a lot on because I again, I 197 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:22.320 think we're just too close to the process. We've spent too much time with 198 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.080 this, we know our product, we know are offering too well, and 199 00:13:26.120 --> 00:13:28.279 we feel that if we just say this one word, the audience is going 200 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:33.080 to pick up the nuance and understand why where it's it's it's it's so and 201 00:13:33.159 --> 00:13:39.080 so clear. I think we often fail at and compelling can also, I 202 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:41.159 think is that is a big stumbling So, you know, credible can be 203 00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:46.639 a huge challenge if we get it wrong, because you can be clear, 204 00:13:46.639 --> 00:13:50.200 you can be concise and compelling, which is basically you're cutting through the clutter 205 00:13:50.279 --> 00:13:54.360 all the noise in the marketplace. You're getting through it, which is like 206 00:13:54.399 --> 00:13:58.279 I'm getting the finish line. But if I'm not credible, I'm not crossing 207 00:13:58.320 --> 00:14:01.519 the finish line right. Um. But the most common to your point, 208 00:14:01.600 --> 00:14:05.279 I would probably point to clear and compelling. Very interesting. Yep, it 209 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:09.600 was interesting looking at this as a graphic because I don't think it was intentional, 210 00:14:09.639 --> 00:14:11.360 but for me when I saw it, I was like, it kind 211 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:16.399 of looks like a sniper scope. Like so when you it made it almost 212 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.399 like enhanced the visual for me in a sense because one thing you mentioned is 213 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:22.440 you also want to have like that I c P sort of in the center. 214 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:28.799 If that person and that is clear, then the messaging and everything around 215 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:31.120 is like, Okay, well we know who we're the target market for this, 216 00:14:31.320 --> 00:14:35.679 and our messaging needs to to fit to that person. And kind of 217 00:14:35.960 --> 00:14:39.559 you're locked in in your scope in that way. So are you using this 218 00:14:39.720 --> 00:14:43.600 as a sift in a sense like you're going back to your website and you're 219 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:46.360 like sifting through the messaging you already have and like, okay, is this 220 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:48.759 clear, concise, compelling, incredible? And then you're also using it for 221 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:52.200 any new messaging. Is that kind of how you were training your team? 222 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:54.919 So there's a few parts. So yes, I view it as a litmus 223 00:14:54.919 --> 00:14:58.679 test. You can apply it to your own messaging. And again, like 224 00:14:58.919 --> 00:15:01.919 here messaging is everything you're touching, right, could be your ad copy right, 225 00:15:03.320 --> 00:15:05.639 um and advertising you already running. It could be your social posts that 226 00:15:05.639 --> 00:15:07.919 you're posting, right, So it could be anything, So yes, applying 227 00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:11.759 it to your own applying it to your competitors as well. Time just kind 228 00:15:11.759 --> 00:15:16.320 of understand how they're doing and where are opportunities that you could perhaps uh you 229 00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:22.080 know, out out position them on. But you can't do this yourself. 230 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:24.320 And I don't by yourself, I don't mean as an individual, I mean 231 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:28.559 as a company. You can't sit within the four walls of your company and 232 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:31.120 do the successful. Yes, you want to talk to sales if you have 233 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:35.200 a you know the services on you want to talk to services, So you 234 00:15:35.200 --> 00:15:37.440 want to talk to people internally that are touching the customer. But if that's 235 00:15:37.559 --> 00:15:41.399 that's necessary, but it's not sufficient. You need to get outside the walls 236 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:45.519 of your organization, right. You need to talk to customers, You need 237 00:15:45.559 --> 00:15:48.879 to talk to prospects, you need to talk to partners right and you need 238 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:52.799 to get their take um and and that's critically important. I mean, as 239 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:56.440 an example, in the last several weeks, I've easily talked to over twenty 240 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:03.480 five folks internally externally on specifically around messaging, at apping corporate messaging. One 241 00:16:03.720 --> 00:16:07.799 proofpoint further, because what you know, credibility is driven by proof points as 242 00:16:07.840 --> 00:16:11.639 opposed to just talking for my teams historically, and here the teams I'm thinking 243 00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:17.679 of our product marketing teams, industry marketing teams, content marketing teams. The 244 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:22.519 single metric, the single metric that I put that they need to track is 245 00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:30.240 external conversations with customers, prospects, and partners. Because everything those teams does 246 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:34.759 comes from understanding the persona, understanding your pain points, understanding what's relevant, 247 00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:40.600 understanding their challenges. And so if we spend time with them those you know, 248 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:44.720 external personas, only good things can happen. Otherwise it's like an academic 249 00:16:44.960 --> 00:16:48.200 exercise and I retire exercise and will there will be a lot of inefficiency in 250 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:52.000 the system. So the importance of getting outside of your rolls cannot be overstated. 251 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:59.320 Okay, so I put DAR in a conversation with a customer and you're 252 00:16:59.399 --> 00:17:02.559 now using this kind of as a filter in your mind, and you're asking 253 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:04.640 questions, what are some of the best questions that you can ask a customer 254 00:17:04.720 --> 00:17:08.640 to unlock, Like oh they're off, or like they're not fully understanding, 255 00:17:08.720 --> 00:17:12.519 or were we need to go back and tweak. Yeah, really really good 256 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:17.880 questions. So I'll start out with what you don't want to do the very 257 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:19.759 first conversation do you have You don't want to put something in front and say 258 00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:23.160 do you think this is compelling or not? Right? What you what you 259 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:27.079 want to do? My recommendation put together an interview guide. Right, take 260 00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:32.000 the time to think, Okay, I have thirty minutes with this individual. 261 00:17:32.039 --> 00:17:34.200 I have forty five minutes. How do I want to allocate that time to 262 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:38.079 extract the most value? Right? Um? I often do an exercise called 263 00:17:38.079 --> 00:17:41.279 the day in the life? Right? What is it? And this is 264 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:42.519 before I meet with them? What is a day in the life of this 265 00:17:42.559 --> 00:17:47.839 individual? Look? Right? So, what are the key questions they're at 266 00:17:48.079 --> 00:17:49.880 there? What are sorry? What are their priorities? Therefore, what are 267 00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:53.880 the key questions in any given day they're at They're asking how are they answering 268 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:56.880 them? What are their challenges? Right? And then so when you sit 269 00:17:56.920 --> 00:18:02.920 down with them, you're focused on their objectives, You're focused on their challenges. 270 00:18:02.960 --> 00:18:06.799 You're focus on on where they extract the value, not only as an 271 00:18:06.839 --> 00:18:11.319 organization but as an individual because if they if they are a key decision maker 272 00:18:11.559 --> 00:18:15.200 in the buying process, you need to understand their own motivations, right, 273 00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:18.720 and how to get through to them, So you're you're kind of basically you're 274 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:21.839 not asking. It's just like pricing. You don't go would you pay two 275 00:18:21.839 --> 00:18:25.880 bucks for this? No, you're trying to understand what the things they value 276 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:29.400 they don't value, so then that you can attribute the value. Eventually, 277 00:18:29.440 --> 00:18:33.440 after you talk to several and many people, you can go back and try 278 00:18:33.559 --> 00:18:34.400 what do you think of this? What do you think of that? But 279 00:18:34.480 --> 00:18:40.200 you need that foundational understanding before you go and get into that level. M 280 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:45.400 I do you think that that is where it's easy to get it wrong because 281 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:48.079 you're also you're like, oh, I can check off the fact that we 282 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:53.759 talk to customers, but people underestimate how complicated that is. To actually extract 283 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:57.599 the right you don't just need data, you need to turn that data into 284 00:18:57.680 --> 00:19:03.039 insights. So you need all far more than just to ask the same questions 285 00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:06.440 to a bunch of customers. You've got to figure out how this is actually 286 00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:10.720 like, where they're actually coming from, and then how that translates to actual 287 00:19:10.759 --> 00:19:14.079 business decisions you're making. You're right, it's not only the what, but 288 00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:18.039 it's also the why. And and you might you might talk to ten individuals 289 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:22.039 and and have a to the same exact, same thing, and that's like 290 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:26.000 super easy, that would be amazing, But that's also not the norm. 291 00:19:26.039 --> 00:19:30.039 So you you will have to sift through the noise and figure out what what 292 00:19:30.200 --> 00:19:33.359 is the trend here? Right? And of course there's you know, there's 293 00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:37.599 a challenge. Right all companies, particularly growth spaces, they want to move 294 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:41.599 really fast. This stuff sometimes takes time if you don't have the relationships, 295 00:19:41.599 --> 00:19:48.240 external relationships, those customers, those prospect those partners might not prioritize sitting down 296 00:19:48.240 --> 00:19:49.359 with you. Right, sure, I'll do you a favor. Why don't 297 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:52.480 we schedule something for six weeks. I don't have six weeks to wait, 298 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:56.400 right, So yeah, sometimes there is a challenge and you might not get 299 00:19:56.480 --> 00:20:00.279 to as many people as you would like to have clear data point, but 300 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:06.240 I can guarantee some external data points are way better than the external data points. 301 00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:08.319 Yea. In the same way, I think with this, like we 302 00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:11.680 we all know that we should talk to customers. We all know a lot 303 00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:15.440 of even what you presented, like the clear, concise, compelling, credible, 304 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:18.079 differentiated, we know it. But like having something in front of us 305 00:20:18.079 --> 00:20:22.359 that we're reminding ourselves of and calling ourselves back to, I think is why 306 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:26.599 this conversation is so important. So I wonder for someone that's hearing this and 307 00:20:26.599 --> 00:20:27.960 then they're going, all right, I need to take action on it. 308 00:20:29.400 --> 00:20:33.839 You're clearly you're calling all of us to be in better, more informed conversations 309 00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:37.559 with customers. We're also elevating the way we'd thinking about and doing messaging. 310 00:20:37.960 --> 00:20:41.880 Let's go back to that side. So let's say we're in a content marketing 311 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:45.480 role. We're writing, you know, regularly, or we're wanting to update 312 00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:49.519 our website. How do you imagine someone using this now as like a filter? 313 00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:53.400 And how have how have you seen it useful for your team? Yeah? 314 00:20:53.400 --> 00:20:56.880 So you I mean, we we've kind of talked through some of this, 315 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:59.799 but I do see it as as it is a filter. So when 316 00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:03.880 you are developing messaging, regardless of what it is, you are thinking through 317 00:21:03.960 --> 00:21:07.720 these things. Right. It's not that every time every single thing you develop 318 00:21:07.799 --> 00:21:11.920 you run out and and test it externally because frankly, in the market word, 319 00:21:11.920 --> 00:21:14.880 we're developing a lot of content, right, So but you have to 320 00:21:15.119 --> 00:21:18.480 with a regular rhythm be touching external folks to make sure that you're staying tune 321 00:21:18.519 --> 00:21:22.519 with the market, right, and then you apply it as a litmus test, 322 00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:25.400 right you you and I think if you get in the habit, you 323 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:27.440 can say, is this clear right? So, for example, is just 324 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:32.119 concise? One of the things I will do internally when I'm showing a piece 325 00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:36.799 of content, I will grab that content, I will paste it into an 326 00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:40.519 email and I'll send it to myself and then I'll show it to them and 327 00:21:40.519 --> 00:21:44.000 we'll say the title to your piece. I'm seeing the first three words, 328 00:21:44.039 --> 00:21:47.640 So those twelve words you run the title, maybe you should reconsider that. 329 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:51.880 And so there's little cheats like that that you can use say is this concise 330 00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:56.279 right? So use it as a litmus test. Always keep a top of 331 00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:00.920 mind, and always go back to the tar persona right like that. That's 332 00:22:00.920 --> 00:22:03.720 where it all starts. It all starts with you know, it all starts 333 00:22:03.720 --> 00:22:08.039 with them, not us. What I'm saying, Darwin. I was in 334 00:22:08.200 --> 00:22:12.240 high school. I got super into music, and I started learning how to 335 00:22:12.279 --> 00:22:15.079 sing. And so I would go in the car and I would just put 336 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:18.680 on like my favorite artist at the time, and then I would practice harmony 337 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:22.200 as I was like driving to school or driving to hang out with friends. 338 00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:26.200 And I learned how to sing harmony just by like practicing over time. And 339 00:22:26.279 --> 00:22:30.599 I feel like in the same way, one of the best ways to use 340 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:33.240 this graphic, which will link to in the show notes, is to take 341 00:22:33.319 --> 00:22:38.200 this and just start looking at messaging that is all around you, external from 342 00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:45.160 your organization and running it through this filter. And you mentioned that earlier, 343 00:22:45.400 --> 00:22:48.119 but I think the more often you do something that you call yourself back to, 344 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:51.200 I'm just gonna try it, Like it was that clear, was that 345 00:22:51.240 --> 00:22:55.079 concise, was that compelling? Was it credible? How was it differentiated? 346 00:22:55.359 --> 00:22:57.799 And you start to ask yourself those questions about the way other people are doing 347 00:22:57.799 --> 00:23:02.240 it, and especially with some of the best in the business, like how 348 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:04.960 are they doing this excellently? You call your mind to it, and man, 349 00:23:06.000 --> 00:23:08.079 you'll start seeing it kind of pop off everywhere, and then it gets 350 00:23:08.079 --> 00:23:12.680 easier. I totally agree with you and you but I think an important part 351 00:23:12.799 --> 00:23:18.079 is you have to hold a high quality threshold. Right, So let's take 352 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:22.200 let's let's just take in credible. For example, new companies might not have 353 00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:26.519 a whole lot of credibility, right. You might be in a space that 354 00:23:26.720 --> 00:23:30.279 is overhyped, and so everybody is claiming that they're the best thing. Since 355 00:23:30.279 --> 00:23:33.319 slight spread and so you also like, well, if I, if I'm 356 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:34.839 gonna stand out on this crowd, I've got to say that I can, 357 00:23:34.880 --> 00:23:41.519 you know, give you a thousand r O I tomorrow. You're that's that's 358 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:42.880 not going to get you anywhere, right, And so how do you, 359 00:23:44.079 --> 00:23:48.000 for example, what would be a high threshold incredible? It's not what I 360 00:23:48.200 --> 00:23:52.759 say, but it's what my customers say, right, like because because as 361 00:23:52.880 --> 00:23:56.599 as a marketer, everyone's expecting to me to say that I have the best 362 00:23:56.640 --> 00:23:59.519 company, I have the best offering. Like frankly, if I don't see 363 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:00.880 that, they're gonna what's wrong with you? Like every company does that, 364 00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:04.079 right, So to stand out, it's it's about what the customer says. 365 00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:08.480 And clearly what a customer says is infinitely more powerful than what any company and 366 00:24:08.559 --> 00:24:11.400 what a vendor can say. Right. So you know, in my space 367 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:15.160 today, with that being you know, we put out there at one time 368 00:24:15.240 --> 00:24:19.480 that we were we were ten x faster than traditional development in the low code 369 00:24:19.480 --> 00:24:23.480 space for its name, right, and it's fact. But you know, 370 00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:27.160 days later, every competitor out there was saying the same thing. So all 371 00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:30.880 of a sudden, something that was fact, that was credible, that was 372 00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:36.440 differentiated in the mind of the you know, the potential buyer stopped being differentiated 373 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:38.079 because everyone was saying it, right, So so what do you do in 374 00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:41.440 that case? Well, then again it goes back to what I just said. 375 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:42.480 It's not what I said, it's what it's what they said. Oh 376 00:24:42.880 --> 00:24:45.920 Gardner says that. Oh, well that's different right If Gardner says it, 377 00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:51.400 because it because there in theory unbiased, right. Or what if I put 378 00:24:51.440 --> 00:24:53.640 out a brand name, a company name, right, so I can say 379 00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:57.839 a customer and ideally like the larger the customer that we're recognized the better, 380 00:24:57.960 --> 00:25:00.920 right. So it's not it's not I'm saying it as a company, but 381 00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:06.319 it's it's the customer that's saying. And so go and bring it back to 382 00:25:06.359 --> 00:25:10.599 your question. Is if you apply a high quality threshold to each of these 383 00:25:10.759 --> 00:25:14.119 and, as you say, frequently look out in the market for these things, 384 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:17.599 you will quickly start to see this is doing this is bad, this 385 00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:21.240 is okay, right, And I think that will help you. Yeah, 386 00:25:21.319 --> 00:25:25.880 it's the difference between like claiming even I think of the Christmas movie Elf, 387 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:27.920 where it's like World's Best cup of coffee and he goes and tastes it and 388 00:25:27.960 --> 00:25:32.000 it's like the worst coffee has ever had, right, because it's just like, 389 00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:34.039 oh, it's just a sign that said world's best cup of coffee versus 390 00:25:34.079 --> 00:25:38.799 actually being like established, having a report card in a sense that like ranks 391 00:25:38.839 --> 00:25:41.240 the best coffee shops or right, and then you're like, oh, well 392 00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:47.000 this has been proven out by customers and having that sort of critique in there. 393 00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:49.640 The quality level that you're mentioning ends up being super important. And I 394 00:25:49.680 --> 00:25:56.440 love that we're attaching messaging to customers in such a detailed way in this episode, 395 00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:00.960 because you can't do like one without the other. When you try to 396 00:26:00.039 --> 00:26:03.160 create your message in a silo, you end up in an echo chamber where 397 00:26:03.160 --> 00:26:07.319 everybody and your company is super pumped about how the messaging turned out, and 398 00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:11.680 man, that sounds good. And then you leave that boardroom, you leave 399 00:26:11.720 --> 00:26:15.119 that meeting, and it just doesn't resonate in the market and it falls off 400 00:26:15.200 --> 00:26:18.640 cliffs. So thank you for for highlighting those things and kind of tying them 401 00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:22.279 together for us today. You're welcome of all that you just said. That 402 00:26:22.440 --> 00:26:25.599 take away that hit hardest for me was that mug I have that says the 403 00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:30.640 world's greatest dad. Is that not accurate. I think it's a commodity content 404 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:33.039 mug Dar. I'm sorry to break that to you. Man, I got 405 00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:37.400 to go back to your kids and see if it's true. Right, that's 406 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:41.400 awesome. Well, hey, thanks so much for spending time with us. 407 00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:45.200 And I know we had mentioned at the top that you're the vice president of 408 00:26:45.200 --> 00:26:48.440 marketing at Appian. But just take a second before we close, tell us 409 00:26:48.440 --> 00:26:52.599 a little bit more about what Appian does, and then what's the best way 410 00:26:52.640 --> 00:26:57.079 for people to stay connected to you? I appreciate look again, and I'm 411 00:26:57.160 --> 00:27:03.119 putting myself on the tes ut here giving myself the tests. I share this, 412 00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:07.119 but I love your feedback. You know doesn't meet the clear, concise, 413 00:27:07.480 --> 00:27:11.119 compelling, incredible differentiating Right. What I would say is apping is the 414 00:27:11.160 --> 00:27:17.240 fastest way to improve your business process to drive impact, significant impact. Right. 415 00:27:17.519 --> 00:27:22.079 We enable companies to design, to automate, and to optimize their businesses 416 00:27:22.440 --> 00:27:26.799 all on the low code platform. So what I've tried to do there, 417 00:27:26.000 --> 00:27:30.000 right is giving you context. Right, the fastest way to improve your business 418 00:27:30.039 --> 00:27:33.720 process, that's the what, but the why, like why does it matter? 419 00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:37.759 Well, it's to drive your business results. Take it down a level, 420 00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:38.720 because that's really how level. It's like, well, what are you 421 00:27:38.799 --> 00:27:45.400 doing. You're you're designing your you're optimizing processes in a single platform, and 422 00:27:45.839 --> 00:27:48.480 for our target audience, they know that typically that happens in a lot of 423 00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:52.200 PILO vendors and separate vendors, So having it together is really powerful. And 424 00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:56.160 then low code is how we deliver it right, and so that implies agility, 425 00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.680 implies speed. So it's some of the context of of what I just 426 00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:03.480 share, And if folks want to get into contact, I would love it, 427 00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:06.279 and I think the best way would would be a hitting up on LinkedIn. 428 00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:10.160 Fantastic. That was a great breakdown. I'm glad that you're willing to 429 00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:12.920 do that, even with your own messaging there at the end. And this 430 00:28:14.000 --> 00:28:18.559 has been a really fascinating, fun conversation. We appreciate your time here on 431 00:28:18.640 --> 00:28:21.359 B two B Growth, and I'll say to all of our listeners, stay 432 00:28:21.400 --> 00:28:23.279 connected with me as well over on LinkedIn. Would love to chat with you 433 00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:29.039 about marketing, about this episode, about business in life, and thanks for 434 00:28:29.119 --> 00:28:33.119 listening. We'll be back real soon with another episode. Keep doing work that 435 00:28:33.240 --> 00:28:48.240 matters. We're always excited to have conversations with leaders on the front lines of 436 00:28:48.319 --> 00:28:52.440 Marketing. If there's a marketing director or a chief marketing officer that you think 437 00:28:52.480 --> 00:28:56.200 we need to have on the show, reach out. Email me Benji dot 438 00:28:56.200 --> 00:29:00.960 block at sweet fish media dot com. I forward to hearing from you.