March 8, 2022

A/B Test Your Way to Success with Tim Rickards

In this episode Benji talks to Tim Rickards, Managing Director, Social & Content Strategy at Hearsay Systems.

From micro to macro, A/B testing allows us to explore resonance and what truly matters to our audience. Tim provides practical insights regarding the use of story vs data, and we discuss how to be effective in a highly regulated industry like finance.

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:17.399 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be tob growth, this 2 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:21.679 is Bob Growth. My name is Benjie Block. I'm your host and joined 3 00:00:21.679 --> 00:00:26.120 today buy a new friend, Tim ricords. Tim, thanks for joining us 4 00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:30.719 here on be tob growth today and my pleasure. Thank you for having me. 5 00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:36.719 Absolutely so, Tim. You are the director of social and content strategy 6 00:00:36.840 --> 00:00:43.039 at hearsay systems, and that sort of encompasses quite a bit, but maybe 7 00:00:43.039 --> 00:00:46.200 tell me a little bit of of your background in the work that you do. 8 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:52.799 Absolutely so, and here's say we are a company that focuses on last 9 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:57.960 mile engagement for companies that are selling. We specialize in social selling. We 10 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:03.120 are social media platform. We also do compliant texting and individual sites for firms 11 00:01:03.120 --> 00:01:08.879 in the financial services industry. So it's integrated experience selling suite of products that 12 00:01:08.920 --> 00:01:15.120 we provide and my job is to do outreach to our customer base with about 13 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:19.000 anything related to their social strategy or their content strategy within social and that is, 14 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:25.079 to be more specific, what we call organic social so nonpaid social selling, 15 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:30.799 typically in the insurance and Financial Services Wealth Management Industries. Prior to that, 16 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:34.680 I worked for a really long time at Charles Schwab the Ro Corid here 17 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:38.159 in the United States. Yeah, I started as a copywriter in their inhouse 18 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:42.280 agency and I ended up as a director of marketing for client engagement for their 19 00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:47.680 retail brokerage business. So, folks who are investing for the future, for 20 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:52.200 the retirement fantastic, and we're going to tap into some of your wealth of 21 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:57.879 knowledge today on ourganic social on a be testing and excited to do that. 22 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:01.680 But when we were having our conversation offline, I had this image kind of 23 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:05.159 pop into my head that I think sets up where we're going to go, 24 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:08.319 and I imagined that you kind of like just someone, just you win two 25 00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:13.360 tickets to like a fight of the year and too boxers, to top boxer. 26 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:15.400 You kind of hop on this flight, you pick picked up in a 27 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:19.680 limo, go to like Caesar's Palace and Vegas or something. And if you're 28 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:23.039 like me, you're not super into boxing. So maybe I don't even know 29 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:25.960 who's on the card and then I like get there, in one corner the 30 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:29.919 only boxer I know. It's Mike Tyson. He's in blue shorts. In 31 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:32.400 the other corner, red shorts, it's Mike Tyson. Like what the heck, 32 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:38.000 it's to Mike Tyson's, but they're just slightly different and that's where they 33 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:39.560 starts to break down a little bit, Tim. I'll tell you. But 34 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:44.520 the reason I bring that up is because I think that sets up AB testing. 35 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:47.520 Slight differences, right, little things that we test, little things that 36 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:52.000 we change, we pin them in two different corners and then we say which 37 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:54.000 one ends up kind of winning the fight in a sense. Does that make 38 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:57.280 sense to you, Tim, when we start to kind of discuss a be 39 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:00.360 testing here? Absolutely, I mean, I think so from a broad perspective. 40 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:06.759 You know, anytime you're testing you've got two entities going against each other 41 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:10.479 in a given context. And to take the fighting analogy a little bit further, 42 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:15.960 oftentimes we're testing stuff like I'm going to have Mike Tyson fight Toyota Corolla. 43 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:22.039 Right, we're testing is it don't really the same. They may not 44 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:23.840 even be striving for the same goals, and so you're going to get a 45 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:29.159 result that maybe isn't useful. Yes, you dig down a little bit and 46 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:32.840 maybe we are indeed testing to individuals who are boxers. But one person isn't 47 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:37.479 a boxer, is a chef, for example. You might figure out how 48 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:40.199 the boxer can inflict physical pain on the chef, but the chef can cook 49 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:44.680 a really good meal. HMM, you've identified a difference there, but it 50 00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:49.919 hasn't helped you move forward. So with AB testing at its most top level, 51 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:53.560 you know, you're essentially, in our world anyway, taking two different 52 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:58.800 types of marketing assets, or in this case social posts, and you're letting 53 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:01.680 them out into the wild. Then you're seeing which one did better based on 54 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:05.560 how you're measuring your performance. Yeah, with a bee. As you move 55 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:11.479 farther down the road, you're the two assets or the two items you're testing 56 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:15.079 become much closer and much more similar to each other, because you're really trying 57 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:19.120 to dig into a single thing or a small group of things that are making 58 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:25.839 the difference. So there are people who specialize in testing from have science backgrounds, 59 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:29.759 and they're those people listening to this podcast will probably be cringing to my 60 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:33.560 so of these terms. Keep it. I'm a marketing communitions person, but 61 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:39.040 I think the general principles apply. By comparing items that are similar, that's 62 00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:43.120 the way you can really dive into finding out what might actually be producing better 63 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:46.879 or worse results. Yep, Yep, what makes you so passionate about this 64 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:50.680 topic? Maybe do you see it often done wrong? I'd love to know 65 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:57.560 where that passion comes from. Sure from a passion perspective. So what's interesting 66 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:01.279 about the setting up a test is you have to make some key decisions that 67 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:06.839 are often not made in a very strict stance when in the marketing profession. 68 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:11.120 Is because a person in that profession. Yeah, so when you're going test 69 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:15.600 something, you really have to decide what is the desired outcome of this campaign, 70 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:20.319 or what does the desired outcome of this series of social posts? Sometimes 71 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:26.079 in the real world the desired outcome of a marketing campaign is simply to run 72 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:30.439 the marketing campaign. Sometimes that's the top goal. You know you need to 73 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:34.000 do this thing, you know that if you do this thing you're going to 74 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:38.519 get some results and you can measure those, but really you're not super clear 75 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:42.680 on what you're trying to drive. When you go down the road to testing, 76 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:46.600 it forces you to be way more specific. So, to use an 77 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:53.560 example, if you are going to run an organic program for your podcast, 78 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:57.639 you may think back and decide, okay, of all the items that I 79 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:00.360 want out of this, could be grow my net work right, could be 80 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:06.000 get the online engagement, likes and whatever, shares, retweets, or could 81 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:11.279 be visits to your website for some sort of lead form activity. I'm not 82 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:13.959 sure. Well, if you're going to test, you to decide which one 83 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:17.240 of those most important, and it doesn't necessarily mean that in some huge value 84 00:06:17.319 --> 00:06:23.040 judgment perspective, one is ultimately better than the other, but is what's more 85 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.920 important in this particular moment for this campaign. So that kind of focus is 86 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:30.800 really valuable because it helps clear away a lot of the distractions and actually helps 87 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:33.360 you make better decisions, because when you're reviewing the creative, and for those 88 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:38.160 of you who not be failing with that term, that's the pictures and words 89 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:41.480 and all marketing, like, most of the time for marketing gets spent in 90 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:45.639 arguing over the creative, which you know is the most subjective of all things. 91 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:50.000 But as you're reviewing your creative and as you're reviewing your distribution plan, 92 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:53.720 you always can go back to okay, well, are we driving the most 93 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:57.879 important thing here? Yeah, we'll make decisions easier. It gives you an 94 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:00.759 objective framework for that. So that's why I'm passionate about it, because it 95 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:04.519 helps cut through a lot of the noise that we create for ourselves and try 96 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:09.079 to make these complicated decisions. And then, you know, what's also great 97 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:13.600 about it is that you can test these items and get a result that you 98 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:16.279 feel is important and from there it gives you a wonderful set of decisions to 99 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:19.519 make to move forward. If one thing was better than the other, do 100 00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:23.680 we want to revalidate the test and recreate it? Do we want to take 101 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:26.759 the results and then take the winning item and test that? I get something 102 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:31.160 else. So your your program then, is moving forward like from an evolutionary 103 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:35.279 perspective, versus simply being Oh, we're going to do some marketing now, 104 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:39.759 put some stuff out there and then we're going to rest because that was really 105 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:42.959 hard. Then we're going to put more stuff out. It gives you a 106 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:47.439 nice road port towards seeing actual improvement. It optimizes it. It does it's 107 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:51.439 all about optimization. I think that, especially in social media, you know, 108 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:57.720 what gets press, what people notice, are things that go viral and 109 00:07:58.120 --> 00:08:01.879 the reality is really hard thing to chase, not worth chasing. Often right 110 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.240 it's not. I don't think you can't. It's sort of like, oh, 111 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:07.600 how am I going to create a black swan event, and that's the 112 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:11.639 whole point, is that you don't know how that works. That's why it's 113 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:15.839 a black swan of it. So unless you're in a situation where you have 114 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:18.839 such an online following and influence or you're using an influence or who can you 115 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:24.120 know has a higher capacity to drive virality, you're better off focusing on this 116 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:31.079 slow, steady, thoughtful, optimized approach. It gives you those small incremental 117 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:35.840 improvements that over time, have a huge have a huge impact. As you're 118 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:39.879 doing this and you're trying to optimize, do you see certain channels right now 119 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:43.679 that you think are best for a be testing? Does it depend campaign to 120 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.799 campaign? What do you think is when it comes to actual channels for this? 121 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:52.840 Well, that's a really interesting point. So if we're talking about marketing 122 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:56.840 channels in general, I think where you're going to get the best testing results 123 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:01.159 is where you have the most control totally. And so the way you get 124 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:07.440 control is you either own the control or you buy the control. So although 125 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:11.320 supposedly email died ten years ago, it's still here and still valid. When 126 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:18.759 you own people's email addresses, you control which audience sees your communications. So 127 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:22.759 that's a really good way also, if you're going to buy media, so 128 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:24.559 and let's just say that you're going to buy online media, you're going to 129 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:30.240 buy banner ads and such, the agencies from whom you're buying. They will 130 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:35.720 help you understand who you're targeting and you have a higher sense of control. 131 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:41.639 With organic social you have less control in many ways because it's the algorithms of 132 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:48.320 the social media networks that decide if you're opposed to seeing and by whom, 133 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:50.960 that you can do things to increase the visibility of your posts, but you 134 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:54.919 have a lot less ability to dictate that they're going to be seen. So 135 00:09:54.919 --> 00:10:00.679 it makes it a little bit trickier. When I think of a be testing, 136 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.960 I think of it in the micro and the macro. Sometimes you can 137 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:07.039 do big changes, sometimes it's just as small. As I was saying, 138 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:11.960 to start right, just the color slightly different. Let's go small here. 139 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:15.600 So to give us what you would be considering, or what someone running in 140 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:18.440 Ab test would be considering when they go to the micro. And what types 141 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:22.679 of small changes are we testing? Sure so like, for example, take 142 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:28.279 your own channels. Let's take your website or the destination page that you're marketing 143 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:35.240 your marketing leads to. So you own that entire experience and I've had results 144 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:39.639 on projects I've worked on where we just change the color and size of a 145 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:43.759 button. Everything else was the same. That's the famous Google result that they've 146 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:48.000 tested their home page, I don't know, a bazillion times to optimize how 147 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:52.600 well it works right, and you'll notice that it doesn't get more complicated over 148 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:56.399 time, unlike maybe what a traditional marketer in control of the Google home page 149 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:00.840 would have created, a giant thing of texting, images and worring becomes a 150 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:05.879 NASCAR car. Exactly what we have is a box, essentially, and they've 151 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:09.559 messed around with size and color. So that's a really small test, but 152 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:13.600 it can have incredible results. We did some work, I'm in one of 153 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:18.360 my prior positions where we had a destination page and the team that own that 154 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:24.840 page moved a button from one position of the page to the other other position 155 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:30.759 of the page and increased the clicks and conversion by like over a hundred percent 156 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:33.080 something by making that more visible. So that's like a small thing. You 157 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:39.240 can also be pretty small in terms of images. So does a certain type 158 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:43.320 of image matter? Just certain words matter, and from there you you get, 159 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:48.519 you get more complicated and you add more variables. So, from where 160 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:52.240 you sit, you're not the one actually running these tests, but you have 161 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:58.240 you know, you're advising your consulting, you're thinking through these things. Who 162 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:01.679 Do you see in these gating that conversation? Is it someone that's at the 163 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:05.480 design level going, hey, we should just try to move this button over? 164 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:07.639 Is it someone from a consulting perspective going hey, tried this? How 165 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:13.279 do those conversations take place? It's a really interesting question. I think the 166 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:18.840 answer is that it's highly variable. Typically, the idea to test comes from 167 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:22.960 someone who who owns the results in some shape or form. So if you're 168 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:28.519 the project or product owner or if, in this case could be on this 169 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:33.679 podcast, the business owner, you may be thinking, I understand why people 170 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:37.159 are dropping off my page. Maybe I might. Adobe data tells me that 171 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:43.840 they start entering stuff into my form fill and then they abandon or I have 172 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:46.799 a really high bounce rate. So Gee, that to me that's a problem 173 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:50.120 to be solved. How can I start to understand how to solve this problem? 174 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:54.440 I should consider testing. Likewise, from my perspective, sometimes I'll work 175 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:56.440 with the one of our clients and they'll say, hey, would you just 176 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:01.039 take a look at our program and I'll look at their program and notice that 177 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:05.360 maybe performance is low for a specific topic area, and then I look at 178 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:09.480 the creative units and they may look very similar, and then that's really easy 179 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:11.360 for me to look smart. there. I'm like, well, why don't 180 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:18.519 we consider taking the same topics but changing the way that those posts are constructed 181 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:24.039 and see if we can get meaningful results? So anyone really throughout the entire 182 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:28.080 kind of creation chain of a of a project should have the ability to say 183 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.279 I think we should us to see if it works better. But sometimes it 184 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:35.600 just depends on the company itself. You know, who has who has the 185 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:39.559 juice to say we need to stop and test, or who's the most who's 186 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.799 the most implicated in the success? Yeah, obviously this is going to vary 187 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:46.519 a little bit project to project. But when you think of even the website, 188 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:50.559 example, and you're running a test, do you see there being like 189 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:54.399 an optimal time frame that you would suggest long enough? Obviously you're going to 190 00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:58.360 need to gather some data. So what do you think when it comes to 191 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:03.399 time? So this brings up kind of a funny story from my past. 192 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:05.639 You know I would often, when I was in marketing, out work with 193 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:09.080 the data science team and be a couple of people that I worked with all 194 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:13.799 the time on my particular slice of the business and their data science people. 195 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:18.600 So they would have a specific number of impressions in order for the test to 196 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:22.840 be statistically valid, and that takes time and so I would always have this 197 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:26.799 conversation like yeah, I don't need statistically valid, I just need directionally correct 198 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:31.759 and the kind of Wowlee. Over time we got to a good midpoint. 199 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:35.000 So it really depends on how much exposure you have. I don't know the 200 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:39.720 exact number, but like sure the Google home page, they can probably run 201 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:41.679 test all during the day because I have enough people hitting it. But you 202 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:46.759 need to make sure that it's a it's a significant number that you based on 203 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:50.399 like your normal response, right. You want to make sure that you're getting 204 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.240 you know, if you have a hundred, if I had a hundred hits 205 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.759 to a page and a day, I'd want to test that thing over several 206 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:03.039 days because the more you test, the more you can smooth out any of 207 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:07.480 that kind of randomness and statistical noise. With something like an email. We 208 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:11.559 used to put it out in the market and then we would wait a week 209 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:16.240 to ten days before we started counting, just to give a chance to be 210 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:20.000 in the open if you're thinking about your social media activity, if you're the 211 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.879 person who's controlling the post. So I do little experiments myself with my own 212 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:30.960 Linkedin, instance, and sometimes on instagram. I will put a post out 213 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:33.000 and then I won't really think about how will it did for at least several 214 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:35.840 days. Give it a chance to be out there, and so then I 215 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.960 can afterwards, I can come back and have a sense that's enough. The 216 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:43.960 thing that's important to not do is to just draw conclusions too early, and 217 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.720 that can be challenging because, you know, especially have a lot of energy 218 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:52.320 behind a test, people want to know did it work? Yeah, I 219 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:54.919 am guilty of that, especially on social right like the quick give it, 220 00:15:56.360 --> 00:16:00.919 yes, give it a minute, walk away. Sure, social wides nature 221 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:06.000 supposed to be instantaneous. Way To instantaneous. Things are funny. Like recently 222 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:10.360 did some testing on Linkedin for myself and I had a post that was still 223 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:17.200 generating additional responses weeks later, so which really surprised me. I hadn't run 224 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.720 into that before. So you have to give things some time. One way 225 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:25.159 to kind of deal with that impatience is that if you if you're running tests 226 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:27.000 on a regular cadence, you're always going to have some things that you think 227 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:32.279 are, quote unquote, done enough to allies and I can help. It's 228 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:36.080 really hard when you test one thing and then you're in a vacuum waiting. 229 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:40.960 It's like toast. Hey everyone. If you've been listening to be to be 230 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:44.879 growth for a while, you know that we are big proponents of putting out 231 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:49.000 original, organic content on Linkedin, but one thing that's always been a struggle 232 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:53.519 for a team like ours is easily tracking the reach of that linkedin content. 233 00:16:53.600 --> 00:17:00.159 That's why we're really excited about shield analytics. Since our team started using shield, 234 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:03.319 we've been able to easily track the reach and performance of our linkedin content 235 00:17:03.359 --> 00:17:08.319 without having to manually log it ourselves. It automatically creates reports and it generates 236 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:15.400 dashboards that are incredibly useful to determining things like what content has been performing the 237 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.960 best, what days of the week are we getting the most engagement and our 238 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:25.480 average views per post. Shield has been a game changer for our entire team's 239 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:30.480 productivity and performance on Linkedin. I highly suggest checking out this tool. If 240 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:34.799 you're publishing content on Linkedin for yourselves or for your company, you can get 241 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:40.920 a ten day free trial at shield APP DOT AI, or you can get 242 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:45.440 a twenty five percent discount with our Promo code be to be growth. Again, 243 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:49.960 that's shield APP DOT AI and the Promo Code is be the number two 244 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:56.039 be growth. All One word for a twenty five percent discount. All right, 245 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:59.920 let's get back into the show. Yeah, what do I do until 246 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:02.920 this test is over? But when you got a backlog and you know the 247 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:06.079 next thing you're going to iterate on, you got time to rethink. Okay, 248 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:08.440 so that's micro level. Span out. Let's go to macro. So 249 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:11.240 then when we start talking at a macro level, we're talking about things like 250 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:17.960 you might go a product ad versus a story based add there's several things we 251 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:21.160 can do when we get to the macro. Talk me through what you're thinking 252 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:25.160 through Tim when you think of macro a be testing. Sure, so, 253 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:30.119 just as in a hypothesis, let's say that I've created a new GIZMO that's 254 00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:34.920 going to help you with your posture, and I'm taking a non financial services 255 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:38.799 example, just because then we don't have to talk about legal or compliance. 256 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:41.799 Right, we'll just we'll just go to a product that that doesn't have a 257 00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:45.240 ton of regulation behind it and is that is probably a little more kind of 258 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:48.319 day to day. So let's say it's a thing that's going to help you 259 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:52.599 with your posture. All medical compliance and legal to the side. So you 260 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:55.839 may want to think it first. Well, I don't really know. I 261 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:59.799 haven't seen this before in the market place. I'm not really sure what story 262 00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:03.680 about this item is going to attract people's attention. I have, however, 263 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:08.119 focused down the group I think is interested. So what we're going to take 264 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:11.359 different audience groups and set that aside. We're going to assume we've got an 265 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:18.519 audience define right. So a very pragmatic way to move forward is to say, 266 00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:21.640 okay, well, let's start. On one hand, let's talk about 267 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:26.640 what the product is and does and use that Lens, and then on the 268 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:30.400 other hand let's talk about what it does for people. What is the effect 269 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:36.160 on the individual? So there's a whole school of thought, which I think 270 00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:40.799 has been pretty validated, that when you talk to people about something that solves 271 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:44.000 a problem for them, if you can identify the problem to be solved and 272 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:47.480 you talk about how that problem is solved. You typically have good results, 273 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:51.839 but that's not always the case. It could be that that this particular product 274 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:56.160 is so unique in and of itself that people get Trans Transfixed by the story. 275 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:00.519 But if you created those two different ways and you could go out and 276 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:03.960 test that, like something like let's say you're going to do some I don't 277 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:07.279 know, paid social on Instagram, you might run these two different creative sets 278 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:11.200 and then see which one gets better results. And that I'll give you valuable 279 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.559 information because you can think, Oh, if, assuming you get you get 280 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:17.559 clear enough indication at one's better than the other, then you can just say 281 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:22.000 well, this horse one. Let's continue to ride this horse right, see 282 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:25.920 if we then then okay, now we're talking about the story, about the 283 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:29.559 product, what it's going to do for someone great. So I have that. 284 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:33.440 HMM, what can I change there that's different to see if it works 285 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:37.400 better. And maybe that has to do with certain words or maybe it has 286 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:41.599 to do with certain images. It could be a variable in your ad by 287 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:45.920 and your at placement, a bunch of different things, but the ideas just 288 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:49.359 then take one other item and test against that and then keep moving forward in 289 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:52.920 be to be and in finance, I'm sure at we we are very prone 290 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:56.359 to not going story based. Luckily, I think there is a movement to 291 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:02.240 get away from just the stats driven stuff and understand people our story base. 292 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:06.279 Huh, it can be hard. I mean, I think you want to 293 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:11.519 show efficacy and the way we do that typically is with numbers. What I 294 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:15.160 think, though, is so fascinating about be to be is that for a 295 00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:18.720 long time we just kind of assume that because it was business, it wasn't 296 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:23.599 about people. And it's absolutely about people. It's absolutely about the person who's 297 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:30.039 making that that buying decision. So if you can figure out a way to 298 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:33.119 present your product in a light that says, this is how I can solve 299 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:37.440 a problem for you and make your life easier, this is how I can 300 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:41.599 contribute to your success and you have more, more success. And just talking 301 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:45.359 about the numbers. Years ago, Oracle used to do these ads on the 302 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:51.480 back of Economist magazine that literally were like just numbers. It would be an 303 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:56.599 oracle does point nine seven percent better than sap. That was it and I 304 00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.920 never understood and I guess it must have been successful because they kept doing it, 305 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:03.880 but part of me wondered if maybe it was just successful because it was 306 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:07.480 a giant placement that said Oracle on the back of the economist right. I 307 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:11.920 just that message never occurred to never seem to solve a problem for anybody other 308 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:15.400 than the implicate this is better. Yeah, so I think it's great if 309 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:22.279 you can understand your market and have that quote unquote, conversation with them through 310 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:25.400 your marketing and really you get down to the person and and you know, 311 00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:27.599 we'll probably trying to solve for them. How is what you offer going to 312 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:32.119 help them succeed? The value of AB testing to is if you have a 313 00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:36.720 boss who is leans heavier into the number side and you want to run a 314 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:40.839 test, you can just show them in one test that the bar is low 315 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:44.319 for the where you have to start. You can just try one thing, 316 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:48.400 you suggest one thing. So I love the the ability there to to tweak 317 00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:52.480 into to try. You brought something up earlier that I wanted to touch on 318 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.920 because you bring in compliance and regulations. So for that example we put that 319 00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:00.720 to the side. But the truth is that's not where you work right. 320 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:07.039 You have to constantly be thinking through compliance and regulation. That makes things complicated. 321 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:11.720 Walk me through how that complicates things and then how you have additional things 322 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:17.519 you've got to be thinking about. Sure. So let's take take something like 323 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:25.599 financial advice. HMM. So there are many very important regulations and considerations that 324 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:30.920 need to be reviewed before you public publish something about financial advice. And you 325 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:36.559 know the origin of those is a totally different story. But the end, 326 00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:40.599 whether or not it's a pain in the neck because a different story. The 327 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:45.519 driver behind the regulations is a good driver. You're trying to not missleap people 328 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:49.000 totally. You need to be fair and balanced. So when you get into 329 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:55.240 marketing, where sometimes people, let's say, might stretch the truth or maybe 330 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:59.640 take the truth and try and presented in a little different light, you have 331 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:04.839 to hit the happy medium where what you're saying is follows the regulations but still 332 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:11.039 places yourself or your your product in a good light. So what it really 333 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:14.519 forces you to do, I think you know, if you're a creative person 334 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:18.119 trying to come up with messages and images, it actually makes the job more 335 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:21.599 challenging. It's a bigger challenge. It hampers a little bit what you can 336 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:23.319 do, but I think probably that's a good thing in the end result, 337 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:27.279 because it forces you to dig deeper and get to this core problem to be 338 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:33.440 solved for the audience. From a collaboration standpoint, it really requires you to 339 00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:37.559 work closely with a bunch of different partners, so the people who specialize in 340 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:42.799 compliance and legal, your creative your strategists, even your data people, because 341 00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:48.440 they have a hand in deciding what's going to be tested or not. Honestly, 342 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:52.759 you know, it's always easy to throw darts at regulation and requirements, 343 00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:55.960 but I think even if you had a product like the back Gismo I was 344 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.960 describing, or or, I don't know, something that's going to improve you 345 00:24:59.960 --> 00:25:04.720 your physical appearance, if you think about these requirements and guidelines as as a 346 00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:11.440 way to get to what's honest, you should have those for your product anyway. 347 00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:15.640 Right you should be talking about yourself or your product in a way that's 348 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.279 honest and truthful because, especially these days, if you're not, you will 349 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.920 be discovered. Authenticity matters. It does. It may not. Maybe your 350 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:26.920 short term play and you're just trying to move a bunch of gismos or do 351 00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:29.359 dads and then you're going to disappear, but I mean if you're trying to 352 00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:33.079 build a at anable business or or grow your reputation. You need to make 353 00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:38.759 sure that you're grounded in authenticity. So that's just required authenticity and it adds 354 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:45.960 a little extra again, difficulty level of difficulty to the communications and requires more 355 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:49.720 collaboration. But the other thing is it does provide some good guard rails and 356 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:53.559 then you're able to work from within those. What it does not do is 357 00:25:53.599 --> 00:26:00.079 hamper your ability to think innovatively about how you talk about your product. So 358 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:04.400 let's say you're an assurance agent and you have your own franchise or your own 359 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:08.839 business. What your products are, that's defined by the companies who provide the 360 00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:14.119 products, but the service you provide and how you present yourself and how you 361 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:18.559 connect with your local community, that's completely up to you. So that's a 362 00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:23.480 very big broad cameras from which you can work and then try and, you 363 00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:27.359 know, test and experiment your way to what you think is a most authentic 364 00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:32.839 for you and be that works the best within that framework, because organic socialist 365 00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:37.720 something that clearly works and it's something that your you're thinking about and consulting advising 366 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:44.119 on how you make sure that you're doing that effectively while also within these guard 367 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.480 rails. Wells, you know, for many of the most, if not 368 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:52.240 all, the customers that we work with right their financial services firm. So 369 00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:57.039 they have their own internal and legal departments that review all of the social posts 370 00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:02.200 before they go out, or least they the content. So those are the 371 00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:04.119 guard rails. Therefore, what, quote unquote, what we can and cannot 372 00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:10.000 say? So that checks that box where the the white space is okay. 373 00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:14.759 Well, how are we going to say this? How is the how will 374 00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:18.920 the image or the Post be constructed? And then when will we encourage people 375 00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:23.319 to put the set that free in the social networks and how can we train 376 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:27.079 them then to take advantage of the response that it that it generates? So 377 00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:32.799 these firms all have dedicated groups that make sure that things are compliant, and 378 00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:36.960 I served both as a creative talking to the compliance people, trying to explain 379 00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:41.000 what we're trying to do and having those conversations, to being the marketer having 380 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:42.960 those conversations, and I was also a series twenty four, which meant I 381 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:47.480 actually was the final say on yes no for publications. I got kind of 382 00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:52.079 a broad experience in it and if everybody comes with a good attitude and your 383 00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:55.640 respectful of other people's concerns, it's it can be good. You can actually 384 00:27:55.640 --> 00:27:59.000 sometimes it makes things better than they would have been before because you're acting in 385 00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:02.920 a more authentic way and you're making sure that everyone is is properly protected, 386 00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:07.559 the firm, the individuals and also the consumer. Do you have any maybe 387 00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:15.559 example of like a complex product or service that you're offering that you guys explained 388 00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:18.480 in a in a story or you really hit at the heart and the why 389 00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:23.119 we're able to translate that effectively that maybe you could you could share or think 390 00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:30.680 of? So in just in my experience, I think the most typical thing 391 00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:37.880 that I had to try to communicate was financial advice. It's not a product 392 00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:44.279 per se, it's a service, but it's something that can be devilishly difficult 393 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:51.640 to quantify and in this particular case, you know the it's Opaque's confusing. 394 00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:56.119 The level of trust in general is relatively low. So in one instance, 395 00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:03.119 the way that we wanted to communicate this particular advice offering, which was for 396 00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:07.799 people with higher levels of assets and a more higher level of service, more 397 00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:12.039 attentive, more customized. We and this was many years ago. At the 398 00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:15.640 time it was as this. I'm going to date myself, but at the 399 00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:18.279 time this was kind of a big deal. So we ended up shooting videos 400 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:22.319 of clients talking about their lives and then we made those available. And so 401 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:27.680 what we're trying to do is translate all of these intangible things that the service 402 00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:34.079 provided and give them life in somebody else's story. And what that did is 403 00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:37.960 it it gave space for the viewer to see themselves in the people we were 404 00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:44.920 portraying, and we thought that that was a better, more visceral way of 405 00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:49.279 connecting than giving them a bullet list of all the things they would get and 406 00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:52.480 saying and saying. The worst is that, when you're kind of trapped in 407 00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:56.400 you're saying all of the things that everyone else says, because companies tend to 408 00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:00.480 copy each other and also in a highly regulated environment, you end up with 409 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:03.559 a shortlist of things you can actually say. So we felt like that was 410 00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:11.759 was really successful. Another way we worked around that problem was we tried to 411 00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:18.119 focus in on the fact that people who have higher portfolios have a tendency to 412 00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:19.960 take a chunk of that money and want to invest it based on their own 413 00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:25.640 strategies and then take a chunk of money and have someone manage it for them. 414 00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:29.359 And so we were very up front and recognizing that you were going to 415 00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:33.000 do some of this on your own, which is great, but in order 416 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:37.000 to free you up for that task, would you not want expert help to 417 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:41.279 take care of the other components? And you can see this across financial services 418 00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:45.000 industry. I mean it is the famous New York life disclosure, a customer 419 00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:48.960 of ours, but they had a famous ad campaign where they were selling insurance. 420 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:52.200 But really what you saw on the screen with somebody holding a baby. 421 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:57.000 I don't know if it's been distilled any better than that. Sure. So 422 00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:02.720 those are those are powerful ways to do it and it's a little more difficult 423 00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:06.640 than having a physical product. But if you take someone like Nike, who 424 00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:10.279 took tennis shoes and turn tennis shoes in a in a method of self expression 425 00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:14.400 and also a social signal of the fact that I'm athletic, right, that's 426 00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:18.319 the alchemy right there make that transition. Well, there's a lot that I'm 427 00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:22.920 taking away from this conversation. Tim I'd think of micro and macro in a 428 00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:29.720 be testing, and maybe this is just a little prompt for our listeners on 429 00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:34.240 to is episode to go test something and do it just slight and variation for 430 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:37.720 the next little bit and see what comes in it. Maybe it's in your 431 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:41.000 personal social strategy. You want to try that, or for your company. 432 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:45.440 What's a test you could run right now and get you think it outside the 433 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.200 box. And then I love the value of story right. I think we 434 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.880 come back to that on be tob growth pretty often because we want to push 435 00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:55.440 be to be specifically SASS companies, but we want to push you guys to 436 00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:00.839 really adapt, adapt and adopt stories into your marketing strategy. Well, let 437 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.720 me because like I just thought something so we can spice it. I wanted 438 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:08.000 to see on not note. One thing we see in social is that levels 439 00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:14.680 of engagement are higher in BTB than there and BTC, which might be counterintuitive 440 00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:19.519 but it's actually not. And the social activity there in the BEDB space is 441 00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:23.519 not just informational. It tends to be more informational, but it's also personal, 442 00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:29.160 or it's about me within my job. So it definitely works in the 443 00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:32.720 BETB segment. And you had mentioned stories and that's what it is. You're 444 00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:37.400 describing to people what motivates you to do your job or what you're passionate about, 445 00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:43.440 and that works. That will create engagement and it follows along with everything 446 00:32:43.480 --> 00:32:47.599 else we've been discussing. Fantastic Tim for those that want to stay connected to 447 00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:51.720 you and the work that you're doing. What the best way to do that 448 00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:53.759 and hit on me what the company's doing as well? One more time for 449 00:32:53.839 --> 00:32:57.799 us, sure. So, if you want to connect with hearsay systems, 450 00:32:57.880 --> 00:33:00.640 you can just look for our company page on link dinner visit our website. 451 00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:06.519 I'm on Linkedin as well. I'm always open to talking to people and connecting. 452 00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:10.839 And if you are very interested in social selling and how to improve your 453 00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:15.839 last mile engagement with customers and prospects, definitely visit our heirsay site. We've 454 00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:21.000 got sweeter products and subject better experts like myself and other people who can really 455 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:25.160 help you reb that engine. Love it, but we're always having insightful conversations 456 00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:29.319 like this here on be to be growth. We want to help fuel your 457 00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:31.920 innovation, so never miss an episode. Subscribe to be to be growth. 458 00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:36.759 Wherever you're listening to this right now, you can connect with me on Linkedin 459 00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:52.880 as well. Just Search Benjie Block and keep doing work the matters. We're 460 00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:57.039 always excited to have conversations with leaders on the front lines of marketing. If 461 00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:00.839 there's a marketing director or a chief marketing officer that you think we need to 462 00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:05.039 have on the show, reach out email me, bene dot block at Sweet 463 00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:07.039 Fish Mediacom. I look forward to hearing from you.