Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:17.399 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be tob growth, this 2 00:00:17.600 --> 00:00:21.679 is Bob Growth. My name is Benjie Block. I'm your host and joined 3 00:00:21.679 --> 00:00:26.120 today buy a new friend, Tim ricords. Tim, thanks for joining us 4 00:00:26.120 --> 00:00:30.719 here on be tob growth today and my pleasure. Thank you for having me. 5 00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:36.719 Absolutely so, Tim. You are the director of social and content strategy 6 00:00:36.840 --> 00:00:43.039 at hearsay systems, and that sort of encompasses quite a bit, but maybe 7 00:00:43.039 --> 00:00:46.200 tell me a little bit of of your background in the work that you do. 8 00:00:46.799 --> 00:00:52.799 Absolutely so, and here's say we are a company that focuses on last 9 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:57.960 mile engagement for companies that are selling. We specialize in social selling. We 10 00:00:58.039 --> 00:01:03.120 are social media platform. We also do compliant texting and individual sites for firms 11 00:01:03.120 --> 00:01:08.879 in the financial services industry. So it's integrated experience selling suite of products that 12 00:01:08.920 --> 00:01:15.120 we provide and my job is to do outreach to our customer base with about 13 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:19.000 anything related to their social strategy or their content strategy within social and that is, 14 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:25.079 to be more specific, what we call organic social so nonpaid social selling, 15 00:01:25.120 --> 00:01:30.799 typically in the insurance and Financial Services Wealth Management Industries. Prior to that, 16 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:34.680 I worked for a really long time at Charles Schwab the Ro Corid here 17 00:01:34.719 --> 00:01:38.159 in the United States. Yeah, I started as a copywriter in their inhouse 18 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:42.280 agency and I ended up as a director of marketing for client engagement for their 19 00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:47.680 retail brokerage business. So, folks who are investing for the future, for 20 00:01:47.719 --> 00:01:52.200 the retirement fantastic, and we're going to tap into some of your wealth of 21 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:57.879 knowledge today on ourganic social on a be testing and excited to do that. 22 00:01:57.200 --> 00:02:01.680 But when we were having our conversation offline, I had this image kind of 23 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:05.159 pop into my head that I think sets up where we're going to go, 24 00:02:05.319 --> 00:02:08.319 and I imagined that you kind of like just someone, just you win two 25 00:02:08.360 --> 00:02:13.360 tickets to like a fight of the year and too boxers, to top boxer. 26 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:15.400 You kind of hop on this flight, you pick picked up in a 27 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:19.680 limo, go to like Caesar's Palace and Vegas or something. And if you're 28 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:23.039 like me, you're not super into boxing. So maybe I don't even know 29 00:02:23.039 --> 00:02:25.960 who's on the card and then I like get there, in one corner the 30 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:29.919 only boxer I know. It's Mike Tyson. He's in blue shorts. In 31 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:32.400 the other corner, red shorts, it's Mike Tyson. Like what the heck, 32 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:38.000 it's to Mike Tyson's, but they're just slightly different and that's where they 33 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:39.560 starts to break down a little bit, Tim. I'll tell you. But 34 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:44.520 the reason I bring that up is because I think that sets up AB testing. 35 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:47.520 Slight differences, right, little things that we test, little things that 36 00:02:47.560 --> 00:02:52.000 we change, we pin them in two different corners and then we say which 37 00:02:52.080 --> 00:02:54.000 one ends up kind of winning the fight in a sense. Does that make 38 00:02:54.039 --> 00:02:57.280 sense to you, Tim, when we start to kind of discuss a be 39 00:02:57.400 --> 00:03:00.360 testing here? Absolutely, I mean, I think so from a broad perspective. 40 00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:06.759 You know, anytime you're testing you've got two entities going against each other 41 00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:10.479 in a given context. And to take the fighting analogy a little bit further, 42 00:03:10.520 --> 00:03:15.960 oftentimes we're testing stuff like I'm going to have Mike Tyson fight Toyota Corolla. 43 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:22.039 Right, we're testing is it don't really the same. They may not 44 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:23.840 even be striving for the same goals, and so you're going to get a 45 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:29.159 result that maybe isn't useful. Yes, you dig down a little bit and 46 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:32.840 maybe we are indeed testing to individuals who are boxers. But one person isn't 47 00:03:32.840 --> 00:03:37.479 a boxer, is a chef, for example. You might figure out how 48 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:40.199 the boxer can inflict physical pain on the chef, but the chef can cook 49 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:44.680 a really good meal. HMM, you've identified a difference there, but it 50 00:03:44.719 --> 00:03:49.919 hasn't helped you move forward. So with AB testing at its most top level, 51 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:53.560 you know, you're essentially, in our world anyway, taking two different 52 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:58.800 types of marketing assets, or in this case social posts, and you're letting 53 00:03:58.840 --> 00:04:01.680 them out into the wild. Then you're seeing which one did better based on 54 00:04:01.719 --> 00:04:05.560 how you're measuring your performance. Yeah, with a bee. As you move 55 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:11.479 farther down the road, you're the two assets or the two items you're testing 56 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:15.079 become much closer and much more similar to each other, because you're really trying 57 00:04:15.120 --> 00:04:19.120 to dig into a single thing or a small group of things that are making 58 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:25.839 the difference. So there are people who specialize in testing from have science backgrounds, 59 00:04:25.839 --> 00:04:29.759 and they're those people listening to this podcast will probably be cringing to my 60 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:33.560 so of these terms. Keep it. I'm a marketing communitions person, but 61 00:04:33.600 --> 00:04:39.040 I think the general principles apply. By comparing items that are similar, that's 62 00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:43.120 the way you can really dive into finding out what might actually be producing better 63 00:04:43.199 --> 00:04:46.879 or worse results. Yep, Yep, what makes you so passionate about this 64 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:50.680 topic? Maybe do you see it often done wrong? I'd love to know 65 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:57.560 where that passion comes from. Sure from a passion perspective. So what's interesting 66 00:04:57.600 --> 00:05:01.279 about the setting up a test is you have to make some key decisions that 67 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:06.839 are often not made in a very strict stance when in the marketing profession. 68 00:05:06.959 --> 00:05:11.120 Is because a person in that profession. Yeah, so when you're going test 69 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:15.600 something, you really have to decide what is the desired outcome of this campaign, 70 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:20.319 or what does the desired outcome of this series of social posts? Sometimes 71 00:05:20.360 --> 00:05:26.079 in the real world the desired outcome of a marketing campaign is simply to run 72 00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:30.439 the marketing campaign. Sometimes that's the top goal. You know you need to 73 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:34.000 do this thing, you know that if you do this thing you're going to 74 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:38.519 get some results and you can measure those, but really you're not super clear 75 00:05:38.759 --> 00:05:42.680 on what you're trying to drive. When you go down the road to testing, 76 00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:46.600 it forces you to be way more specific. So, to use an 77 00:05:46.600 --> 00:05:53.560 example, if you are going to run an organic program for your podcast, 78 00:05:53.839 --> 00:05:57.639 you may think back and decide, okay, of all the items that I 79 00:05:57.639 --> 00:06:00.360 want out of this, could be grow my net work right, could be 80 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:06.000 get the online engagement, likes and whatever, shares, retweets, or could 81 00:06:06.040 --> 00:06:11.279 be visits to your website for some sort of lead form activity. I'm not 82 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:13.959 sure. Well, if you're going to test, you to decide which one 83 00:06:14.000 --> 00:06:17.240 of those most important, and it doesn't necessarily mean that in some huge value 84 00:06:17.319 --> 00:06:23.040 judgment perspective, one is ultimately better than the other, but is what's more 85 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.920 important in this particular moment for this campaign. So that kind of focus is 86 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:30.800 really valuable because it helps clear away a lot of the distractions and actually helps 87 00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:33.360 you make better decisions, because when you're reviewing the creative, and for those 88 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:38.160 of you who not be failing with that term, that's the pictures and words 89 00:06:38.199 --> 00:06:41.480 and all marketing, like, most of the time for marketing gets spent in 90 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:45.639 arguing over the creative, which you know is the most subjective of all things. 91 00:06:45.639 --> 00:06:50.000 But as you're reviewing your creative and as you're reviewing your distribution plan, 92 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:53.720 you always can go back to okay, well, are we driving the most 93 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:57.879 important thing here? Yeah, we'll make decisions easier. It gives you an 94 00:06:58.040 --> 00:07:00.759 objective framework for that. So that's why I'm passionate about it, because it 95 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:04.519 helps cut through a lot of the noise that we create for ourselves and try 96 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:09.079 to make these complicated decisions. And then, you know, what's also great 97 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:13.600 about it is that you can test these items and get a result that you 98 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:16.279 feel is important and from there it gives you a wonderful set of decisions to 99 00:07:16.279 --> 00:07:19.519 make to move forward. If one thing was better than the other, do 100 00:07:19.560 --> 00:07:23.680 we want to revalidate the test and recreate it? Do we want to take 101 00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:26.759 the results and then take the winning item and test that? I get something 102 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:31.160 else. So your your program then, is moving forward like from an evolutionary 103 00:07:31.160 --> 00:07:35.279 perspective, versus simply being Oh, we're going to do some marketing now, 104 00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:39.759 put some stuff out there and then we're going to rest because that was really 105 00:07:39.800 --> 00:07:42.959 hard. Then we're going to put more stuff out. It gives you a 106 00:07:43.040 --> 00:07:47.439 nice road port towards seeing actual improvement. It optimizes it. It does it's 107 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:51.439 all about optimization. I think that, especially in social media, you know, 108 00:07:51.959 --> 00:07:57.720 what gets press, what people notice, are things that go viral and 109 00:07:58.120 --> 00:08:01.879 the reality is really hard thing to chase, not worth chasing. Often right 110 00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:05.240 it's not. I don't think you can't. It's sort of like, oh, 111 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:07.600 how am I going to create a black swan event, and that's the 112 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:11.639 whole point, is that you don't know how that works. That's why it's 113 00:08:11.639 --> 00:08:15.839 a black swan of it. So unless you're in a situation where you have 114 00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:18.839 such an online following and influence or you're using an influence or who can you 115 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:24.120 know has a higher capacity to drive virality, you're better off focusing on this 116 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:31.079 slow, steady, thoughtful, optimized approach. It gives you those small incremental 117 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:35.840 improvements that over time, have a huge have a huge impact. As you're 118 00:08:35.879 --> 00:08:39.879 doing this and you're trying to optimize, do you see certain channels right now 119 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:43.679 that you think are best for a be testing? Does it depend campaign to 120 00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.799 campaign? What do you think is when it comes to actual channels for this? 121 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:52.840 Well, that's a really interesting point. So if we're talking about marketing 122 00:08:52.960 --> 00:08:56.840 channels in general, I think where you're going to get the best testing results 123 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:01.159 is where you have the most control totally. And so the way you get 124 00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:07.440 control is you either own the control or you buy the control. So although 125 00:09:07.480 --> 00:09:11.320 supposedly email died ten years ago, it's still here and still valid. When 126 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:18.759 you own people's email addresses, you control which audience sees your communications. So 127 00:09:18.840 --> 00:09:22.759 that's a really good way also, if you're going to buy media, so 128 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:24.559 and let's just say that you're going to buy online media, you're going to 129 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:30.240 buy banner ads and such, the agencies from whom you're buying. They will 130 00:09:30.279 --> 00:09:35.720 help you understand who you're targeting and you have a higher sense of control. 131 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:41.639 With organic social you have less control in many ways because it's the algorithms of 132 00:09:41.679 --> 00:09:48.320 the social media networks that decide if you're opposed to seeing and by whom, 133 00:09:48.320 --> 00:09:50.960 that you can do things to increase the visibility of your posts, but you 134 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:54.919 have a lot less ability to dictate that they're going to be seen. So 135 00:09:54.919 --> 00:10:00.679 it makes it a little bit trickier. When I think of a be testing, 136 00:10:00.720 --> 00:10:03.960 I think of it in the micro and the macro. Sometimes you can 137 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:07.039 do big changes, sometimes it's just as small. As I was saying, 138 00:10:07.080 --> 00:10:11.960 to start right, just the color slightly different. Let's go small here. 139 00:10:11.000 --> 00:10:15.600 So to give us what you would be considering, or what someone running in 140 00:10:15.639 --> 00:10:18.440 Ab test would be considering when they go to the micro. And what types 141 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:22.679 of small changes are we testing? Sure so like, for example, take 142 00:10:22.720 --> 00:10:28.279 your own channels. Let's take your website or the destination page that you're marketing 143 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:35.240 your marketing leads to. So you own that entire experience and I've had results 144 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:39.639 on projects I've worked on where we just change the color and size of a 145 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:43.759 button. Everything else was the same. That's the famous Google result that they've 146 00:10:43.759 --> 00:10:48.000 tested their home page, I don't know, a bazillion times to optimize how 147 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:52.600 well it works right, and you'll notice that it doesn't get more complicated over 148 00:10:52.679 --> 00:10:56.399 time, unlike maybe what a traditional marketer in control of the Google home page 149 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:00.840 would have created, a giant thing of texting, images and worring becomes a 150 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:05.879 NASCAR car. Exactly what we have is a box, essentially, and they've 151 00:11:05.879 --> 00:11:09.559 messed around with size and color. So that's a really small test, but 152 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:13.600 it can have incredible results. We did some work, I'm in one of 153 00:11:13.639 --> 00:11:18.360 my prior positions where we had a destination page and the team that own that 154 00:11:18.399 --> 00:11:24.840 page moved a button from one position of the page to the other other position 155 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:30.759 of the page and increased the clicks and conversion by like over a hundred percent 156 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:33.080 something by making that more visible. So that's like a small thing. You 157 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:39.240 can also be pretty small in terms of images. So does a certain type 158 00:11:39.240 --> 00:11:43.320 of image matter? Just certain words matter, and from there you you get, 159 00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:48.519 you get more complicated and you add more variables. So, from where 160 00:11:48.639 --> 00:11:52.240 you sit, you're not the one actually running these tests, but you have 161 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:58.240 you know, you're advising your consulting, you're thinking through these things. Who 162 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:01.679 Do you see in these gating that conversation? Is it someone that's at the 163 00:12:01.679 --> 00:12:05.480 design level going, hey, we should just try to move this button over? 164 00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:07.639 Is it someone from a consulting perspective going hey, tried this? How 165 00:12:07.639 --> 00:12:13.279 do those conversations take place? It's a really interesting question. I think the 166 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:18.840 answer is that it's highly variable. Typically, the idea to test comes from 167 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:22.960 someone who who owns the results in some shape or form. So if you're 168 00:12:24.159 --> 00:12:28.519 the project or product owner or if, in this case could be on this 169 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:33.679 podcast, the business owner, you may be thinking, I understand why people 170 00:12:33.679 --> 00:12:37.159 are dropping off my page. Maybe I might. Adobe data tells me that 171 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:43.840 they start entering stuff into my form fill and then they abandon or I have 172 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:46.799 a really high bounce rate. So Gee, that to me that's a problem 173 00:12:46.840 --> 00:12:50.120 to be solved. How can I start to understand how to solve this problem? 174 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:54.440 I should consider testing. Likewise, from my perspective, sometimes I'll work 175 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:56.440 with the one of our clients and they'll say, hey, would you just 176 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:01.039 take a look at our program and I'll look at their program and notice that 177 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:05.360 maybe performance is low for a specific topic area, and then I look at 178 00:13:05.399 --> 00:13:09.480 the creative units and they may look very similar, and then that's really easy 179 00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:11.360 for me to look smart. there. I'm like, well, why don't 180 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:18.519 we consider taking the same topics but changing the way that those posts are constructed 181 00:13:18.679 --> 00:13:24.039 and see if we can get meaningful results? So anyone really throughout the entire 182 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:28.080 kind of creation chain of a of a project should have the ability to say 183 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.279 I think we should us to see if it works better. But sometimes it 184 00:13:31.360 --> 00:13:35.600 just depends on the company itself. You know, who has who has the 185 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:39.559 juice to say we need to stop and test, or who's the most who's 186 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.799 the most implicated in the success? Yeah, obviously this is going to vary 187 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:46.519 a little bit project to project. But when you think of even the website, 188 00:13:46.559 --> 00:13:50.559 example, and you're running a test, do you see there being like 189 00:13:50.600 --> 00:13:54.399 an optimal time frame that you would suggest long enough? Obviously you're going to 190 00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:58.360 need to gather some data. So what do you think when it comes to 191 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:03.399 time? So this brings up kind of a funny story from my past. 192 00:14:03.519 --> 00:14:05.639 You know I would often, when I was in marketing, out work with 193 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:09.080 the data science team and be a couple of people that I worked with all 194 00:14:09.080 --> 00:14:13.799 the time on my particular slice of the business and their data science people. 195 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:18.600 So they would have a specific number of impressions in order for the test to 196 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:22.840 be statistically valid, and that takes time and so I would always have this 197 00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:26.799 conversation like yeah, I don't need statistically valid, I just need directionally correct 198 00:14:26.840 --> 00:14:31.759 and the kind of Wowlee. Over time we got to a good midpoint. 199 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:35.000 So it really depends on how much exposure you have. I don't know the 200 00:14:35.039 --> 00:14:39.720 exact number, but like sure the Google home page, they can probably run 201 00:14:39.759 --> 00:14:41.679 test all during the day because I have enough people hitting it. But you 202 00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:46.759 need to make sure that it's a it's a significant number that you based on 203 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:50.399 like your normal response, right. You want to make sure that you're getting 204 00:14:50.519 --> 00:14:54.240 you know, if you have a hundred, if I had a hundred hits 205 00:14:54.240 --> 00:14:58.759 to a page and a day, I'd want to test that thing over several 206 00:14:58.840 --> 00:15:03.039 days because the more you test, the more you can smooth out any of 207 00:15:03.039 --> 00:15:07.480 that kind of randomness and statistical noise. With something like an email. We 208 00:15:07.559 --> 00:15:11.559 used to put it out in the market and then we would wait a week 209 00:15:11.600 --> 00:15:16.240 to ten days before we started counting, just to give a chance to be 210 00:15:16.279 --> 00:15:20.000 in the open if you're thinking about your social media activity, if you're the 211 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.879 person who's controlling the post. So I do little experiments myself with my own 212 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:30.960 Linkedin, instance, and sometimes on instagram. I will put a post out 213 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:33.000 and then I won't really think about how will it did for at least several 214 00:15:33.080 --> 00:15:35.840 days. Give it a chance to be out there, and so then I 215 00:15:35.840 --> 00:15:39.960 can afterwards, I can come back and have a sense that's enough. The 216 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:43.960 thing that's important to not do is to just draw conclusions too early, and 217 00:15:45.000 --> 00:15:48.720 that can be challenging because, you know, especially have a lot of energy 218 00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:52.320 behind a test, people want to know did it work? Yeah, I 219 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:54.919 am guilty of that, especially on social right like the quick give it, 220 00:15:56.360 --> 00:16:00.919 yes, give it a minute, walk away. Sure, social wides nature 221 00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:06.000 supposed to be instantaneous. Way To instantaneous. Things are funny. Like recently 222 00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:10.360 did some testing on Linkedin for myself and I had a post that was still 223 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:17.200 generating additional responses weeks later, so which really surprised me. I hadn't run 224 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:19.720 into that before. So you have to give things some time. One way 225 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:25.159 to kind of deal with that impatience is that if you if you're running tests 226 00:16:25.159 --> 00:16:27.000 on a regular cadence, you're always going to have some things that you think 227 00:16:27.039 --> 00:16:32.279 are, quote unquote, done enough to allies and I can help. It's 228 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:36.080 really hard when you test one thing and then you're in a vacuum waiting. 229 00:16:36.279 --> 00:16:40.960 It's like toast. Hey everyone. If you've been listening to be to be 230 00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:44.879 growth for a while, you know that we are big proponents of putting out 231 00:16:44.840 --> 00:16:49.000 original, organic content on Linkedin, but one thing that's always been a struggle 232 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:53.519 for a team like ours is easily tracking the reach of that linkedin content. 233 00:16:53.600 --> 00:17:00.159 That's why we're really excited about shield analytics. Since our team started using shield, 234 00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:03.319 we've been able to easily track the reach and performance of our linkedin content 235 00:17:03.359 --> 00:17:08.319 without having to manually log it ourselves. It automatically creates reports and it generates 236 00:17:08.440 --> 00:17:15.400 dashboards that are incredibly useful to determining things like what content has been performing the 237 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.960 best, what days of the week are we getting the most engagement and our 238 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:25.480 average views per post. Shield has been a game changer for our entire team's 239 00:17:25.559 --> 00:17:30.480 productivity and performance on Linkedin. I highly suggest checking out this tool. If 240 00:17:30.519 --> 00:17:34.799 you're publishing content on Linkedin for yourselves or for your company, you can get 241 00:17:34.799 --> 00:17:40.920 a ten day free trial at shield APP DOT AI, or you can get 242 00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:45.440 a twenty five percent discount with our Promo code be to be growth. Again, 243 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:49.960 that's shield APP DOT AI and the Promo Code is be the number two 244 00:17:51.519 --> 00:17:56.039 be growth. All One word for a twenty five percent discount. All right, 245 00:17:56.160 --> 00:17:59.920 let's get back into the show. Yeah, what do I do until 246 00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:02.920 this test is over? But when you got a backlog and you know the 247 00:18:02.920 --> 00:18:06.079 next thing you're going to iterate on, you got time to rethink. Okay, 248 00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:08.440 so that's micro level. Span out. Let's go to macro. So 249 00:18:08.519 --> 00:18:11.240 then when we start talking at a macro level, we're talking about things like 250 00:18:11.680 --> 00:18:17.960 you might go a product ad versus a story based add there's several things we 251 00:18:18.000 --> 00:18:21.160 can do when we get to the macro. Talk me through what you're thinking 252 00:18:21.200 --> 00:18:25.160 through Tim when you think of macro a be testing. Sure, so, 253 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:30.119 just as in a hypothesis, let's say that I've created a new GIZMO that's 254 00:18:30.119 --> 00:18:34.920 going to help you with your posture, and I'm taking a non financial services 255 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:38.799 example, just because then we don't have to talk about legal or compliance. 256 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:41.799 Right, we'll just we'll just go to a product that that doesn't have a 257 00:18:41.799 --> 00:18:45.240 ton of regulation behind it and is that is probably a little more kind of 258 00:18:45.319 --> 00:18:48.319 day to day. So let's say it's a thing that's going to help you 259 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:52.599 with your posture. All medical compliance and legal to the side. So you 260 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:55.839 may want to think it first. Well, I don't really know. I 261 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:59.799 haven't seen this before in the market place. I'm not really sure what story 262 00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:03.680 about this item is going to attract people's attention. I have, however, 263 00:19:03.759 --> 00:19:08.119 focused down the group I think is interested. So what we're going to take 264 00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:11.359 different audience groups and set that aside. We're going to assume we've got an 265 00:19:11.400 --> 00:19:18.519 audience define right. So a very pragmatic way to move forward is to say, 266 00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:21.640 okay, well, let's start. On one hand, let's talk about 267 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:26.640 what the product is and does and use that Lens, and then on the 268 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:30.400 other hand let's talk about what it does for people. What is the effect 269 00:19:30.440 --> 00:19:36.160 on the individual? So there's a whole school of thought, which I think 270 00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:40.799 has been pretty validated, that when you talk to people about something that solves 271 00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:44.000 a problem for them, if you can identify the problem to be solved and 272 00:19:44.039 --> 00:19:47.480 you talk about how that problem is solved. You typically have good results, 273 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:51.839 but that's not always the case. It could be that that this particular product 274 00:19:51.880 --> 00:19:56.160 is so unique in and of itself that people get Trans Transfixed by the story. 275 00:19:56.799 --> 00:20:00.519 But if you created those two different ways and you could go out and 276 00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:03.960 test that, like something like let's say you're going to do some I don't 277 00:20:03.000 --> 00:20:07.279 know, paid social on Instagram, you might run these two different creative sets 278 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:11.200 and then see which one gets better results. And that I'll give you valuable 279 00:20:11.200 --> 00:20:14.559 information because you can think, Oh, if, assuming you get you get 280 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:17.559 clear enough indication at one's better than the other, then you can just say 281 00:20:17.599 --> 00:20:22.000 well, this horse one. Let's continue to ride this horse right, see 282 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:25.920 if we then then okay, now we're talking about the story, about the 283 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:29.559 product, what it's going to do for someone great. So I have that. 284 00:20:30.039 --> 00:20:33.440 HMM, what can I change there that's different to see if it works 285 00:20:33.480 --> 00:20:37.400 better. And maybe that has to do with certain words or maybe it has 286 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:41.599 to do with certain images. It could be a variable in your ad by 287 00:20:41.759 --> 00:20:45.920 and your at placement, a bunch of different things, but the ideas just 288 00:20:45.039 --> 00:20:49.359 then take one other item and test against that and then keep moving forward in 289 00:20:49.599 --> 00:20:52.920 be to be and in finance, I'm sure at we we are very prone 290 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:56.359 to not going story based. Luckily, I think there is a movement to 291 00:20:56.640 --> 00:21:02.240 get away from just the stats driven stuff and understand people our story base. 292 00:21:02.400 --> 00:21:06.279 Huh, it can be hard. I mean, I think you want to 293 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:11.519 show efficacy and the way we do that typically is with numbers. What I 294 00:21:11.559 --> 00:21:15.160 think, though, is so fascinating about be to be is that for a 295 00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:18.720 long time we just kind of assume that because it was business, it wasn't 296 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:23.599 about people. And it's absolutely about people. It's absolutely about the person who's 297 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:30.039 making that that buying decision. So if you can figure out a way to 298 00:21:30.079 --> 00:21:33.119 present your product in a light that says, this is how I can solve 299 00:21:33.160 --> 00:21:37.440 a problem for you and make your life easier, this is how I can 300 00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:41.599 contribute to your success and you have more, more success. And just talking 301 00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:45.359 about the numbers. Years ago, Oracle used to do these ads on the 302 00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:51.480 back of Economist magazine that literally were like just numbers. It would be an 303 00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:56.599 oracle does point nine seven percent better than sap. That was it and I 304 00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.920 never understood and I guess it must have been successful because they kept doing it, 305 00:22:00.960 --> 00:22:03.880 but part of me wondered if maybe it was just successful because it was 306 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:07.480 a giant placement that said Oracle on the back of the economist right. I 307 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:11.920 just that message never occurred to never seem to solve a problem for anybody other 308 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:15.400 than the implicate this is better. Yeah, so I think it's great if 309 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:22.279 you can understand your market and have that quote unquote, conversation with them through 310 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:25.400 your marketing and really you get down to the person and and you know, 311 00:22:25.440 --> 00:22:27.599 we'll probably trying to solve for them. How is what you offer going to 312 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:32.119 help them succeed? The value of AB testing to is if you have a 313 00:22:32.119 --> 00:22:36.720 boss who is leans heavier into the number side and you want to run a 314 00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:40.839 test, you can just show them in one test that the bar is low 315 00:22:40.880 --> 00:22:44.319 for the where you have to start. You can just try one thing, 316 00:22:44.359 --> 00:22:48.400 you suggest one thing. So I love the the ability there to to tweak 317 00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:52.480 into to try. You brought something up earlier that I wanted to touch on 318 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.920 because you bring in compliance and regulations. So for that example we put that 319 00:22:57.000 --> 00:23:00.720 to the side. But the truth is that's not where you work right. 320 00:23:00.759 --> 00:23:07.039 You have to constantly be thinking through compliance and regulation. That makes things complicated. 321 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:11.720 Walk me through how that complicates things and then how you have additional things 322 00:23:11.759 --> 00:23:17.519 you've got to be thinking about. Sure. So let's take take something like 323 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:25.599 financial advice. HMM. So there are many very important regulations and considerations that 324 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:30.920 need to be reviewed before you public publish something about financial advice. And you 325 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:36.559 know the origin of those is a totally different story. But the end, 326 00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:40.599 whether or not it's a pain in the neck because a different story. The 327 00:23:40.720 --> 00:23:45.519 driver behind the regulations is a good driver. You're trying to not missleap people 328 00:23:45.680 --> 00:23:49.000 totally. You need to be fair and balanced. So when you get into 329 00:23:49.079 --> 00:23:55.240 marketing, where sometimes people, let's say, might stretch the truth or maybe 330 00:23:55.279 --> 00:23:59.640 take the truth and try and presented in a little different light, you have 331 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:04.839 to hit the happy medium where what you're saying is follows the regulations but still 332 00:24:04.839 --> 00:24:11.039 places yourself or your your product in a good light. So what it really 333 00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:14.519 forces you to do, I think you know, if you're a creative person 334 00:24:14.640 --> 00:24:18.119 trying to come up with messages and images, it actually makes the job more 335 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:21.599 challenging. It's a bigger challenge. It hampers a little bit what you can 336 00:24:21.640 --> 00:24:23.319 do, but I think probably that's a good thing in the end result, 337 00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:27.279 because it forces you to dig deeper and get to this core problem to be 338 00:24:27.319 --> 00:24:33.440 solved for the audience. From a collaboration standpoint, it really requires you to 339 00:24:33.480 --> 00:24:37.559 work closely with a bunch of different partners, so the people who specialize in 340 00:24:37.559 --> 00:24:42.799 compliance and legal, your creative your strategists, even your data people, because 341 00:24:42.839 --> 00:24:48.440 they have a hand in deciding what's going to be tested or not. Honestly, 342 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:52.759 you know, it's always easy to throw darts at regulation and requirements, 343 00:24:52.759 --> 00:24:55.960 but I think even if you had a product like the back Gismo I was 344 00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.960 describing, or or, I don't know, something that's going to improve you 345 00:24:59.960 --> 00:25:04.720 your physical appearance, if you think about these requirements and guidelines as as a 346 00:25:04.759 --> 00:25:11.440 way to get to what's honest, you should have those for your product anyway. 347 00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:15.640 Right you should be talking about yourself or your product in a way that's 348 00:25:15.680 --> 00:25:18.279 honest and truthful because, especially these days, if you're not, you will 349 00:25:18.319 --> 00:25:22.920 be discovered. Authenticity matters. It does. It may not. Maybe your 350 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:26.920 short term play and you're just trying to move a bunch of gismos or do 351 00:25:26.119 --> 00:25:29.359 dads and then you're going to disappear, but I mean if you're trying to 352 00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:33.079 build a at anable business or or grow your reputation. You need to make 353 00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:38.759 sure that you're grounded in authenticity. So that's just required authenticity and it adds 354 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:45.960 a little extra again, difficulty level of difficulty to the communications and requires more 355 00:25:45.279 --> 00:25:49.720 collaboration. But the other thing is it does provide some good guard rails and 356 00:25:49.759 --> 00:25:53.559 then you're able to work from within those. What it does not do is 357 00:25:53.599 --> 00:26:00.079 hamper your ability to think innovatively about how you talk about your product. So 358 00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:04.400 let's say you're an assurance agent and you have your own franchise or your own 359 00:26:04.480 --> 00:26:08.839 business. What your products are, that's defined by the companies who provide the 360 00:26:08.839 --> 00:26:14.119 products, but the service you provide and how you present yourself and how you 361 00:26:14.160 --> 00:26:18.559 connect with your local community, that's completely up to you. So that's a 362 00:26:18.680 --> 00:26:23.480 very big broad cameras from which you can work and then try and, you 363 00:26:23.519 --> 00:26:27.359 know, test and experiment your way to what you think is a most authentic 364 00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:32.839 for you and be that works the best within that framework, because organic socialist 365 00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:37.720 something that clearly works and it's something that your you're thinking about and consulting advising 366 00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:44.119 on how you make sure that you're doing that effectively while also within these guard 367 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.480 rails. Wells, you know, for many of the most, if not 368 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:52.240 all, the customers that we work with right their financial services firm. So 369 00:26:52.359 --> 00:26:57.039 they have their own internal and legal departments that review all of the social posts 370 00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:02.200 before they go out, or least they the content. So those are the 371 00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:04.119 guard rails. Therefore, what, quote unquote, what we can and cannot 372 00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:10.000 say? So that checks that box where the the white space is okay. 373 00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:14.759 Well, how are we going to say this? How is the how will 374 00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:18.920 the image or the Post be constructed? And then when will we encourage people 375 00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:23.319 to put the set that free in the social networks and how can we train 376 00:27:23.400 --> 00:27:27.079 them then to take advantage of the response that it that it generates? So 377 00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:32.799 these firms all have dedicated groups that make sure that things are compliant, and 378 00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:36.960 I served both as a creative talking to the compliance people, trying to explain 379 00:27:37.000 --> 00:27:41.000 what we're trying to do and having those conversations, to being the marketer having 380 00:27:41.000 --> 00:27:42.960 those conversations, and I was also a series twenty four, which meant I 381 00:27:42.960 --> 00:27:47.480 actually was the final say on yes no for publications. I got kind of 382 00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:52.079 a broad experience in it and if everybody comes with a good attitude and your 383 00:27:52.119 --> 00:27:55.640 respectful of other people's concerns, it's it can be good. You can actually 384 00:27:55.640 --> 00:27:59.000 sometimes it makes things better than they would have been before because you're acting in 385 00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:02.920 a more authentic way and you're making sure that everyone is is properly protected, 386 00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:07.559 the firm, the individuals and also the consumer. Do you have any maybe 387 00:28:07.720 --> 00:28:15.559 example of like a complex product or service that you're offering that you guys explained 388 00:28:15.599 --> 00:28:18.480 in a in a story or you really hit at the heart and the why 389 00:28:18.599 --> 00:28:23.119 we're able to translate that effectively that maybe you could you could share or think 390 00:28:23.160 --> 00:28:30.680 of? So in just in my experience, I think the most typical thing 391 00:28:30.680 --> 00:28:37.880 that I had to try to communicate was financial advice. It's not a product 392 00:28:37.000 --> 00:28:44.279 per se, it's a service, but it's something that can be devilishly difficult 393 00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:51.640 to quantify and in this particular case, you know the it's Opaque's confusing. 394 00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:56.119 The level of trust in general is relatively low. So in one instance, 395 00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:03.119 the way that we wanted to communicate this particular advice offering, which was for 396 00:29:03.200 --> 00:29:07.799 people with higher levels of assets and a more higher level of service, more 397 00:29:07.799 --> 00:29:12.039 attentive, more customized. We and this was many years ago. At the 398 00:29:12.039 --> 00:29:15.640 time it was as this. I'm going to date myself, but at the 399 00:29:15.640 --> 00:29:18.279 time this was kind of a big deal. So we ended up shooting videos 400 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:22.319 of clients talking about their lives and then we made those available. And so 401 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:27.680 what we're trying to do is translate all of these intangible things that the service 402 00:29:27.720 --> 00:29:34.079 provided and give them life in somebody else's story. And what that did is 403 00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:37.960 it it gave space for the viewer to see themselves in the people we were 404 00:29:37.960 --> 00:29:44.920 portraying, and we thought that that was a better, more visceral way of 405 00:29:44.960 --> 00:29:49.279 connecting than giving them a bullet list of all the things they would get and 406 00:29:49.359 --> 00:29:52.480 saying and saying. The worst is that, when you're kind of trapped in 407 00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:56.400 you're saying all of the things that everyone else says, because companies tend to 408 00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:00.480 copy each other and also in a highly regulated environment, you end up with 409 00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:03.559 a shortlist of things you can actually say. So we felt like that was 410 00:30:03.559 --> 00:30:11.759 was really successful. Another way we worked around that problem was we tried to 411 00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:18.119 focus in on the fact that people who have higher portfolios have a tendency to 412 00:30:18.160 --> 00:30:19.960 take a chunk of that money and want to invest it based on their own 413 00:30:19.960 --> 00:30:25.640 strategies and then take a chunk of money and have someone manage it for them. 414 00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:29.359 And so we were very up front and recognizing that you were going to 415 00:30:29.400 --> 00:30:33.000 do some of this on your own, which is great, but in order 416 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:37.000 to free you up for that task, would you not want expert help to 417 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:41.279 take care of the other components? And you can see this across financial services 418 00:30:41.319 --> 00:30:45.000 industry. I mean it is the famous New York life disclosure, a customer 419 00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:48.960 of ours, but they had a famous ad campaign where they were selling insurance. 420 00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:52.200 But really what you saw on the screen with somebody holding a baby. 421 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:57.000 I don't know if it's been distilled any better than that. Sure. So 422 00:30:57.680 --> 00:31:02.720 those are those are powerful ways to do it and it's a little more difficult 423 00:31:02.759 --> 00:31:06.640 than having a physical product. But if you take someone like Nike, who 424 00:31:06.680 --> 00:31:10.279 took tennis shoes and turn tennis shoes in a in a method of self expression 425 00:31:10.400 --> 00:31:14.400 and also a social signal of the fact that I'm athletic, right, that's 426 00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:18.319 the alchemy right there make that transition. Well, there's a lot that I'm 427 00:31:18.359 --> 00:31:22.920 taking away from this conversation. Tim I'd think of micro and macro in a 428 00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:29.720 be testing, and maybe this is just a little prompt for our listeners on 429 00:31:29.720 --> 00:31:34.240 to is episode to go test something and do it just slight and variation for 430 00:31:34.319 --> 00:31:37.720 the next little bit and see what comes in it. Maybe it's in your 431 00:31:37.720 --> 00:31:41.000 personal social strategy. You want to try that, or for your company. 432 00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:45.440 What's a test you could run right now and get you think it outside the 433 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:48.200 box. And then I love the value of story right. I think we 434 00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:51.880 come back to that on be tob growth pretty often because we want to push 435 00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:55.440 be to be specifically SASS companies, but we want to push you guys to 436 00:31:56.079 --> 00:32:00.839 really adapt, adapt and adopt stories into your marketing strategy. Well, let 437 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.720 me because like I just thought something so we can spice it. I wanted 438 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:08.000 to see on not note. One thing we see in social is that levels 439 00:32:08.039 --> 00:32:14.680 of engagement are higher in BTB than there and BTC, which might be counterintuitive 440 00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:19.519 but it's actually not. And the social activity there in the BEDB space is 441 00:32:19.559 --> 00:32:23.519 not just informational. It tends to be more informational, but it's also personal, 442 00:32:23.640 --> 00:32:29.160 or it's about me within my job. So it definitely works in the 443 00:32:29.160 --> 00:32:32.720 BETB segment. And you had mentioned stories and that's what it is. You're 444 00:32:32.720 --> 00:32:37.400 describing to people what motivates you to do your job or what you're passionate about, 445 00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:43.440 and that works. That will create engagement and it follows along with everything 446 00:32:43.480 --> 00:32:47.599 else we've been discussing. Fantastic Tim for those that want to stay connected to 447 00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:51.720 you and the work that you're doing. What the best way to do that 448 00:32:51.839 --> 00:32:53.759 and hit on me what the company's doing as well? One more time for 449 00:32:53.839 --> 00:32:57.799 us, sure. So, if you want to connect with hearsay systems, 450 00:32:57.880 --> 00:33:00.640 you can just look for our company page on link dinner visit our website. 451 00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:06.519 I'm on Linkedin as well. I'm always open to talking to people and connecting. 452 00:33:06.559 --> 00:33:10.839 And if you are very interested in social selling and how to improve your 453 00:33:10.920 --> 00:33:15.839 last mile engagement with customers and prospects, definitely visit our heirsay site. We've 454 00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:21.000 got sweeter products and subject better experts like myself and other people who can really 455 00:33:21.000 --> 00:33:25.160 help you reb that engine. Love it, but we're always having insightful conversations 456 00:33:25.160 --> 00:33:29.319 like this here on be to be growth. We want to help fuel your 457 00:33:29.359 --> 00:33:31.920 innovation, so never miss an episode. Subscribe to be to be growth. 458 00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:36.759 Wherever you're listening to this right now, you can connect with me on Linkedin 459 00:33:36.799 --> 00:33:52.880 as well. Just Search Benjie Block and keep doing work the matters. We're 460 00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:57.039 always excited to have conversations with leaders on the front lines of marketing. If 461 00:33:57.039 --> 00:34:00.839 there's a marketing director or a chief marketing officer that you think we need to 462 00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:05.039 have on the show, reach out email me, bene dot block at Sweet 463 00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:07.039 Fish Mediacom. I look forward to hearing from you.
