June 2, 2022

Add Friction to Your Marketing, with Jacob Azia

In this episode, Benji talks to Jacob Azia, Consultant & Advisor for Early Stage tech companies.
Jacob discusses what the right amount of friction looks like in our marketing and how to move away from the obsessions with MQLs.

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In this episode, Benji talks to Jacob Azia, Consultant & Advisor for Early Stage tech companies.
Jacob discusses what the right amount of friction looks like in our marketing and how to move away from the obsessions with MQLs.
Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:13.279 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be to be growth. 2 00:00:16.359 --> 00:00:20.239 Hello and welcome in to be tob growth. I'm your host, Benjie Block, 3 00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:25.719 and today I am joined by Jacob a Zea. He is a consultant 4 00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:30.440 and adviser for early stage tech companies. Jacob, it's fun to have you 5 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:33.600 on the show man. Thanks for having me, Benjie. Great to be 6 00:00:33.640 --> 00:00:38.439 here with you and I love your role as a consultant and advisor, because 7 00:00:39.119 --> 00:00:43.399 here on be to be growth we're always talking to marketing leaders, right and 8 00:00:43.399 --> 00:00:46.840 they're sort of in the trenches of their company, but you're seeing some like 9 00:00:46.920 --> 00:00:51.079 trends, things that you're dealing with across company lines, and I think that 10 00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:55.479 could be a fascinating conversation today. Jacob, tell me some of what you're 11 00:00:55.479 --> 00:01:00.119 seeing. Man. What are some common issues that you see companies bumping into 12 00:01:00.159 --> 00:01:04.599 and maybe having recurringly? Yeah, so I'm working with either marking leaders or 13 00:01:04.840 --> 00:01:11.680 or CEOS themselves. What are the trends I've been seeing recently that I feel 14 00:01:11.799 --> 00:01:18.560 is worth mentioning? Is this strategy to really optimize the funnel as much as 15 00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:23.920 possible to increase conversion rates. So, for example, one of the clients 16 00:01:23.959 --> 00:01:26.599 that I'm working with are. They are. You know, they've switched their 17 00:01:26.599 --> 00:01:32.760 linkedin ads from trying to optimize for website conversions to leagen forms because on there 18 00:01:32.840 --> 00:01:37.040 and they saw that, you know, they would get a higher conversion rate 19 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:40.760 on the person filling out a form if it was a Leegen form as opposed 20 00:01:40.760 --> 00:01:45.640 to website. And that's true and the data supports that. However, when 21 00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:49.840 you look down funnel at actual customer acquisition, you can see that the legend 22 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:56.000 form isn't really even though you're getting a higher conversion rate leading to more customers. 23 00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:59.920 And one of the reasons I think we're seeing that is because when you 24 00:02:00.000 --> 00:02:05.840 make it that easy to the engage with the company, to convert via a 25 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:09.599 legion form, which is really filling out one field after seeing one add you're 26 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:15.680 not really giving the user really any motivation or intent to actually use and eventually 27 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:23.240 purchase those services, and that's it's a bit counterintuitive, but you really want 28 00:02:23.240 --> 00:02:28.199 to as a company, think about how do we educate the the users are 29 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:31.199 future customers, and so that you add a little bit of friction to the 30 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:36.800 process, because ultimately that's the people that then convert are going to be way 31 00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:39.840 more high intent and actually want to do business with you. Yeah, who 32 00:02:39.879 --> 00:02:44.560 thought you would hear on B tob growth today that we should add some friction 33 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:49.599 back into the process? But isn't it true that, like top of funnel, 34 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:53.479 you can have as many emails or whatever, I mean, fill out 35 00:02:53.479 --> 00:02:55.039 the Legen form, whatever you want. You can get as many of those 36 00:02:57.000 --> 00:03:00.039 and feel real good, pat yourself on the back, but if they're not 37 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:07.240 not converting down funnel and you don't you haven't really done anything to let them 38 00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:10.400 explore your brand feel like they really align, then they're not even the leads 39 00:03:10.400 --> 00:03:15.280 that you really want. So the MQL, SQL, the data, the 40 00:03:15.360 --> 00:03:19.520 numbers, they're kind of skewed right. So I man, I think that 41 00:03:19.599 --> 00:03:23.599 is totally true. How do we go about actually adding the right amount of 42 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:27.520 friction in, though, Jacob? I think that is the question so many 43 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:30.520 of us are asking. What do you feel we should be asking ourselves to 44 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:36.199 make sure where we're getting that friction right? That's a great question and and 45 00:03:36.439 --> 00:03:38.080 you know, just want to recognize that. Yes, as marketers we are 46 00:03:38.120 --> 00:03:42.520 all taught optimize the conversion right, increase that conversion and is as much as 47 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:46.199 possible, and so if this does sound a bit out of the box, 48 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:51.159 that's that's on purpose. As far as like the right amount of friction goes, 49 00:03:51.879 --> 00:03:53.599 you know, if you think, if you think about this from their 50 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:59.599 customer experience right, because that's always important to keep in mind, I think 51 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:05.560 asking their customer, you know, potential customer, to visit your company's website 52 00:04:05.639 --> 00:04:11.680 and fill out a form there is not asking too much. If you're acknowledging 53 00:04:11.719 --> 00:04:15.560 that, like anyone you're marketing to, is going to eventually have to come 54 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:18.079 through your website to talk to you, to reach out and talk to you, 55 00:04:18.439 --> 00:04:24.000 then that's that's not really that that hard. You, anyone can just 56 00:04:24.000 --> 00:04:28.160 type in an among Google and find find the first result. What that does 57 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:30.759 is it frees you up. So then mark it the way you want to 58 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:33.720 market on all of on all of your, you know, channels, all 59 00:04:33.800 --> 00:04:39.560 of your campaigns, because then you don't have to optimize for this action where 60 00:04:39.600 --> 00:04:42.560 you need to get their email dres so you need to get their phone number 61 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:46.639 right away so you can actually give them content, give them creative, give 62 00:04:46.680 --> 00:04:53.199 them product marketing that that communicates who you are as a company and your value. 63 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:58.079 And then the friction comes in when you they've learned enough about your company 64 00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:02.519 and they're in there, they're ready to enter into like a real buying cycle. 65 00:05:02.600 --> 00:05:06.680 They can visit your website and fill a form on your website. Just 66 00:05:06.720 --> 00:05:10.399 make your website, you know, don't make it too hard to find the 67 00:05:10.399 --> 00:05:14.319 demoform or the free trial form, but other than that, I think you 68 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:16.800 know you want people to be coming to your website as opposed to filling out 69 00:05:16.839 --> 00:05:23.199 forms on social channels. Why, you think so many struggle with the is 70 00:05:23.240 --> 00:05:28.079 it the way we were educated as marketers and just that desire to see the 71 00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:33.920 number of mqls rise? What? What's behind the approach that you see so 72 00:05:33.959 --> 00:05:38.959 often? Yeah, that's a great question. I think it's probably has a 73 00:05:39.000 --> 00:05:44.279 couple different sources. One of them is definitely this this notion of the mql. 74 00:05:44.279 --> 00:05:47.240 And you know, Oh, because we work in a business where, 75 00:05:47.279 --> 00:05:51.439 you know, sales cycles are a couple weeks to a couple months. We 76 00:05:51.600 --> 00:05:58.720 want to make sure we're adjusting performance on a, you know, regular basis 77 00:05:58.759 --> 00:06:02.160 and in order to do that we need metric like mpls to give us a 78 00:06:02.199 --> 00:06:06.399 sense of performance. And I think there's some validity to that, but I 79 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:12.959 think it's gotten twisted and become like the North Star leading indicator for a lot 80 00:06:13.000 --> 00:06:17.639 of companies, and it just mqls do not paint enough of a picture for 81 00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:23.319 the quality of the lead of the customer, you know, in terms of 82 00:06:23.360 --> 00:06:27.040 who they really are and like, are they truly interested or did you get 83 00:06:27.079 --> 00:06:30.959 them to take an action that was not indicative of how much they actually are 84 00:06:31.040 --> 00:06:36.560 interested in your products or services? So if you were like blue skying this, 85 00:06:36.720 --> 00:06:41.680 in a sense, we're going like Thirtyzero foot view and we're going, 86 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:46.040 if this was just working optimally in Jacob's mind, like this is how the 87 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:50.360 process should be, not how it always is, but like right amount of 88 00:06:50.360 --> 00:06:56.240 friction. Walk me through like an an example. What's how you're thinking about 89 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:00.360 this? I would love to hear it kind of walked out practically. Yeah, 90 00:07:00.399 --> 00:07:04.120 totally. So, if we're not going to if our goal as a 91 00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:08.040 BDB, you know company were from a marking standpoint, is not just to 92 00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:12.360 generate as many leads or mqls as possible, then that really frees us up 93 00:07:12.439 --> 00:07:16.600 to market to people in a way where we can actually just educate them and 94 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:21.519 create awareness and and not worried just solely about this like one, you know, 95 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:26.800 metric of sort of conversion rate, and so what that does is it 96 00:07:26.839 --> 00:07:31.879 allows the company to, you know, create a series of ads, potentially 97 00:07:31.879 --> 00:07:35.160 if we we're talking about paid social, but we could be talking about really 98 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:40.439 a lot of different channels. But the point is that these, these creatives, 99 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:43.879 these ads, they talk about the product, they they talk about the 100 00:07:43.920 --> 00:07:46.959 benefits and the value, the features. One of the one of the ways 101 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:50.680 I like to position this to clients as, like you know, my ideal 102 00:07:50.759 --> 00:07:58.480 state of marketing is take your sales playbook or the sale the your first call, 103 00:07:58.560 --> 00:08:01.279 sales deck, where that's like the first thing you're showing someone up, 104 00:08:01.399 --> 00:08:05.120 you know, for a demo. In that in that deck you've got all 105 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:07.000 of the benefits, all the features. It's like, you know, it 106 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:11.199 has the best content about your product in your company. Take that deck, 107 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:16.199 cut, slice it up, reform at it and create a whole campaign around 108 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:22.639 just, you know, featuring your product and service externally distributing it across channels. 109 00:08:22.680 --> 00:08:24.839 And then when I like to say to you know leaders, you know, 110 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:28.600 CEOS, sales leaders, is how nice would it be if, when 111 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:31.840 a lead came in and we're ready to talk to sales, they already knew 112 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:35.440 everything you were going to say, and they really just needed to talk about 113 00:08:35.440 --> 00:08:37.759 pricing, and that's the cut type of marking that you can do if you're 114 00:08:37.799 --> 00:08:43.279 not trying to optimize for conversion rate. HMM. I love this too because, 115 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:48.360 and obviously you advise for these early stage tech companies, you see this 116 00:08:48.399 --> 00:08:52.399 so much in early stage companies where they're thinking way more about sales and they're 117 00:08:52.399 --> 00:08:54.279 not thinking about marketing yet, right, because they're just trying to show proof 118 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:58.759 of concept. But in this it's really saying, no matter what, you're 119 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:01.480 going to have that sales day, you might as well do some marketing with 120 00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:05.759 that, educate the market, and so there is so many benefits in that. 121 00:09:05.840 --> 00:09:11.159 But when you get into the sales mind, you're thinking about the demos 122 00:09:11.159 --> 00:09:13.279 you got to be on, the calls you got to make, and you're 123 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:18.840 not thinking about how you could utilize social channels or paid social right to actually 124 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:24.759 drive sales in and just a slightly different format, with a mediate with a 125 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:30.360 source you already have. Exactly. These companies are already investing so many resources 126 00:09:30.360 --> 00:09:35.720 into these into these salesman sales materials, right, creative resources, content resources, 127 00:09:35.759 --> 00:09:39.440 and they are really saving these resources for the only the few people that 128 00:09:39.559 --> 00:09:43.480 come through their door. And my questions for these, for these companies, 129 00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:48.279 these these leaders, is like, why are you saving your best assets for 130 00:09:48.360 --> 00:09:52.879 only such a small amount of people? There's unless there's really proprietary, secret, 131 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:56.519 confidential knowledge and in these sale materials, which you can also just redact, 132 00:09:56.519 --> 00:10:01.000 why not just share that with everyone? And so like, everyone gets 133 00:10:01.240 --> 00:10:03.759 the best quality, you know, creative and content that your company has to 134 00:10:03.759 --> 00:10:07.759 offer, and really everyone, sales and marketing both win. And in that 135 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:15.000 scenario, hey be to be gross listeners. We want to hear from you. 136 00:10:15.039 --> 00:10:16.440 In fact, we will pay you for it. Just head over to 137 00:10:16.519 --> 00:10:22.159 BEDB growth podcom and complete a short survey about the show to enter for a 138 00:10:22.279 --> 00:10:26.159 chance to win two hundred and fifty dollars, plus. The first fifty participants 139 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:31.360 will receive twenty five dollars as our way of saying thank you so much one 140 00:10:31.399 --> 00:10:35.840 more time. That's Bob Growth podcom. Let her be number two. Letter 141 00:10:35.919 --> 00:10:43.000 be growth podcom. One entry per person must be an active listener of the 142 00:10:43.039 --> 00:10:50.879 show to enter and look forward to hearing from you. Everyone gets the best 143 00:10:50.960 --> 00:10:54.080 quality, you know, creative and content that your company has to offer, 144 00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:58.879 and a really everyone, sales and marketing both win and in that scenario. 145 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:05.679 So someone's listening to this and they're going I want to go back to my 146 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:09.240 team and start to implement this. An easy first step would be what we 147 00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:13.440 just talked about. Go look at what your sales materials are and how you 148 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:16.440 can repurpose that. Anything else you would say, Jacob, as far as 149 00:11:16.519 --> 00:11:20.360 like these are questions to be asking your team or things to be thinking through 150 00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:24.279 as far as assets you're creating? Yeah, this is really helpful. So 151 00:11:24.879 --> 00:11:28.279 you know this is something you're considering. I think the first question has to 152 00:11:28.360 --> 00:11:31.919 just be around customers and customer acquisition, because that's really going to help you 153 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:37.720 sort of make the case to maybe adjust your marketing strategy to be a bit 154 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:41.159 more about the marketing as opposed to the leads. And so I think you 155 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:45.200 know, depending on Your Business and service, but if you look at the 156 00:11:45.279 --> 00:11:48.440 data and you look at what's driving the customers, from what I've seen, 157 00:11:48.519 --> 00:11:54.480 it's not going to be the campaigns in the programs that are very focused on 158 00:11:54.519 --> 00:12:00.399 just capturing contact information. And so once you have that data, it's a 159 00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:03.000 lot easier to take that work with your you know your leadership team. You're 160 00:12:03.000 --> 00:12:09.240 exact team on how to actually craft a program that would drive customers as opposed 161 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:11.440 to leads. And then, once you have that data and that by and 162 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:16.600 then, yeah, you can work with your work, with your existing materials. 163 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:20.360 One of them could be just taking your sales deck, slicing and dicing 164 00:12:20.399 --> 00:12:24.039 it up into campaigns or ads for social or paid social. Another easy win 165 00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:28.759 I like to talk about with companies that a lot of companies do is webinars. 166 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:31.840 Right. A lot of companies put on webinars. There get a lot 167 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:35.000 of them are gated, which means they're behind a form. And so, 168 00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:39.279 rather than creating a new content, take those Webinars, take the best three 169 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:43.440 thousand hundred and sixty second clips right, add subtitles and a headline if you 170 00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:46.600 can, and then and then run those as a campaign as well. So 171 00:12:46.639 --> 00:12:50.080 you're really able to like almost up cycle this creative and content that you've already 172 00:12:50.080 --> 00:12:54.960 made, but was only for such a small amount of people because of the 173 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:58.519 of the friction that was in place, like for the Webinar, meaning that 174 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:01.639 the form and now so many more people can actually access it and therefore, 175 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:05.960 you know, learn about about your company. I would say you can go 176 00:13:07.120 --> 00:13:13.519 one step further, than that and you could take the script of the Webinar 177 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:18.440 and re record the video so it doesn't just look like a Webinar, and 178 00:13:18.480 --> 00:13:22.600 get someone who is enthusiastic on your team to do it so that it looks 179 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.960 slightly different, because people will eat that up in a different way than knowing 180 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:30.080 that your content was repurposed from a Webinar. But if you don't have that 181 00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:31.919 bar set yet and you're not even repurposing your Webinar, are just start there. 182 00:13:33.000 --> 00:13:35.080 Do that. But I'm saying if you're doing that and you want to 183 00:13:35.159 --> 00:13:37.720 raise the bar one more time, just try getting someone who is good on 184 00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:41.799 came off ups. I'll take it to the next one. I love that. 185 00:13:41.159 --> 00:13:45.759 It's good man the companies that work with or it's ability, very tight 186 00:13:45.840 --> 00:13:50.879 on resources. So yeah, a lot of these recommendations are basically from maximizing 187 00:13:50.960 --> 00:13:54.840 the existing resources and content that that you do have. But absolutely, you 188 00:13:54.879 --> 00:13:58.559 know, webinars. I agree with you specifically because the way that webinars get 189 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:03.120 recorded, even if you are if you even if your faces on it, 190 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.519 which is not a given necessarily for a lot of webinars. Let's say it's 191 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:09.279 a Zoom Webinar, weather is you know, some sort of recording of the 192 00:14:09.320 --> 00:14:15.679 actual presenter, but the main focus is a slide. But the content and 193 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:20.279 creative that works the best on most channels is actually talking heads. So you 194 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:24.399 really want to like flip that script and prominently feature the presenter talking into the 195 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:30.919 camera, because that just is what ends up like engaging the best across channels. 196 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:35.639 Okay, so the pushback, I think, would be maybe at like 197 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:41.000 a executive level, where you're going. We're used to seeing this number of 198 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:46.200 mqls, sqls, and they've they've optimized for higher numbers. They're right, 199 00:14:46.399 --> 00:14:50.799 versus the approach were discussing. So there's going to have to be a conversation 200 00:14:50.799 --> 00:14:54.320 that's had that goes, Hey, guys, we might see this number dip 201 00:14:54.399 --> 00:14:58.679 because we're actually creating some friction. What are your tips there for making sure 202 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:05.519 that conversation goes smooth moodily and we kind of foster that understanding? That is 203 00:15:05.559 --> 00:15:09.159 a that is a very uncomfortable conversation that I've had before. So I do 204 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:13.679 want to acknowledge that. It's not an easy one, right, because you're 205 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:16.559 you know, you're basically telling you know, whoever your leaders, your exacts, 206 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:20.919 that listen, like we are the the mql, the SQL volume that 207 00:15:20.960 --> 00:15:26.080 we've been seeing is going to go down right, and that that you immediately 208 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:28.200 on the on everyone's faces. You see this panic set set in, that, 209 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:31.480 oh my God, like what's going to you know what? What does 210 00:15:31.480 --> 00:15:33.720 it mean for the growth? We have these enormous girl growth targets. What 211 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:39.159 does that mean sort of for our trajectory? And again, is there's a 212 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:43.159 lot of just go back to the data, right. So reassure them that 213 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:50.039 that these programs are not actually driving any customers, so changing the strategy won't 214 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:54.000 affect the business bottom line. And then really, you know, the conversation, 215 00:15:54.080 --> 00:16:00.639 yeah, just needs to be about how we are taking a customer acquisition 216 00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:06.600 of e centric folk approach and you know, that will allow us to do 217 00:16:07.039 --> 00:16:11.320 better marketing. That also we are more excited about, and and that's something 218 00:16:11.360 --> 00:16:15.799 that I've seen work really well, is to use the data right, to 219 00:16:15.919 --> 00:16:18.159 use DRT, like, to use strategy rooted in data, but then also 220 00:16:18.200 --> 00:16:22.320 flip it back on them and ask them like, are you excited about the 221 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:26.679 marketing that you've been doing, like these these legenforms, right, like this, 222 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:32.039 this this type of a process, is this something that you're excited about, 223 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:33.960 because if you're not excited about it, then I promise you that your 224 00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:37.919 customers and your future customers are not going to be excited about it either. 225 00:16:40.159 --> 00:16:45.080 That's such a huge shift that's needed, and especially in those early days where, 226 00:16:45.480 --> 00:16:48.759 if you're so in the weeds on things, it's easy to just go 227 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:52.480 we just need these amount of form fills, versus, if you were on 228 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:55.840 the other end of that form fill, would it even make sense for you 229 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:59.000 to be filling that out? Like would you even so, that's such an 230 00:16:59.000 --> 00:17:02.559 easy switch. That again, like, as someone that does marketing, I'm 231 00:17:02.600 --> 00:17:07.079 so guilty of still opting for the form creation and you need someone outside sort 232 00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.160 of asking you those helpful questions, which you're doing for us today. And 233 00:17:11.480 --> 00:17:17.240 it makes sense. Companies have such aggressive growth targets that then it has they 234 00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:18.920 have to do this. They have almost are forced into this, like well, 235 00:17:19.000 --> 00:17:22.279 let's work backwards if we need this money customers and we need this money 236 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:26.799 as growls, and I'm cusn't it makes it feel almost more manageable and more 237 00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:32.079 tangible to do it that way. But you'll end up going down this, 238 00:17:32.240 --> 00:17:36.000 you know, this path of being really limited in terms of the way you're 239 00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:40.480 doing marketing and how much you can actually grow the business long term. Okay, 240 00:17:40.519 --> 00:17:42.359 so I got one more follow up question before we start to wrap up 241 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:45.759 here, and that would just be around the transition period. So if you 242 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:49.480 were again to you're talking to executives. They're going on. I'm a little 243 00:17:49.480 --> 00:17:53.759 nervous on this, but you're asking these questions. is a transition a swift 244 00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:56.519 one? Is it when you're kind of proving out the value of the new 245 00:17:56.519 --> 00:18:00.160 way over a couple months? Like how do you advise is that transition actually 246 00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:04.240 taking place? Yeah, that's a great that's a really important question because I 247 00:18:04.240 --> 00:18:10.519 think you know this. All this strategy is is great in concept, but 248 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:15.400 execution is just as important, if not more important. As far as implementation, 249 00:18:15.799 --> 00:18:21.160 I think it depends a lot on the business and sort of the current 250 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:25.640 state and how things are going, for example, there and they could be 251 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:30.119 a spectrum right where I would recommend to clients generally that they just pause on 252 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.720 all of their advertising, assuming that it's most almost none of its converting to 253 00:18:33.759 --> 00:18:37.799 customers. Again, that can be really scary thing to hear as a leader 254 00:18:37.000 --> 00:18:41.000 of one of these companies. But budget is not infinite from host companies and 255 00:18:41.079 --> 00:18:48.400 so I really encourage them to deploy it when they have newer, creative and 256 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:53.039 newer content that is more optimized for consumption as opposed to, you know, 257 00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:59.200 conversion. So you could do you could do a hard switch over. It 258 00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:00.920 depends how much buying you have. You could also let some of the stuff 259 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:04.400 you're doing keep, continue to run as you sort of build up this library 260 00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:10.799 of newer assets or up cycled assets and and that will hopefully give you just 261 00:19:10.839 --> 00:19:15.519 a little more time to feel like you have the the the bandwidth to test 262 00:19:15.559 --> 00:19:21.279 and iterate as you're going. But to you really need buy and no matter 263 00:19:21.319 --> 00:19:25.200 what, because it's like you're basically starting from scratching a lot of ways in 264 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:27.039 terms of the way you market took to people, and that's going to take 265 00:19:27.079 --> 00:19:33.680 time to actually show in the market. Yeah, I think that buying is 266 00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:37.640 key and the way that you get to buy in also is by just admitting 267 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:41.000 that you're testing things right and that continued test you're going to prove results over 268 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:47.599 time. But also marketing gets this view of being shiny and if we can 269 00:19:47.640 --> 00:19:49.240 be a little less shiny and just show, Hey, this is what we 270 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:52.359 tested on, this is what didn't work, this is how we're iterating and 271 00:19:52.440 --> 00:19:56.799 changing, you gain trust and you can do with that over time. Early 272 00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:03.400 I think that learning is actually one of the best KPI's in marketing. As 273 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.119 far as how effective it is is obviously you know first and foremost, as 274 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:10.640 is revenue, but short of that is what are we learning like? What 275 00:20:10.680 --> 00:20:12.200 are we learning about our customers? What are we learning about the marking that 276 00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:17.960 we're doing and us? As long as there is this active feedback cycle where 277 00:20:18.039 --> 00:20:22.200 we are are gaining tangible learnings, then I think that is a really good 278 00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:29.680 signal for leaders and executives. This is a good conversation talking about adding friction 279 00:20:29.880 --> 00:20:34.279 intentionally, the right amount of friction as marketers and we know that it's extremely 280 00:20:34.319 --> 00:20:38.680 important. Jacob, thanks for walking US through this. You mentioned at the 281 00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:42.400 top consultant advisor for early stage tech companies, but tell people, are there 282 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:47.880 some ways that you would want those that are interested to stay connected to the 283 00:20:47.880 --> 00:20:49.599 work that you're doing, or what are ways that maybe someone with a question 284 00:20:49.640 --> 00:20:55.559 could reach out to you? Yeah, I'm on Linkedin, so you can 285 00:20:55.599 --> 00:21:00.039 you can find me. They're happy to happy to chat and answer any questions 286 00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:03.799 anyone might have. Love it. I am over on Linkedin. As well 287 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:07.640 and would love to chat with listeners on this up about this episode, about 288 00:21:07.640 --> 00:21:12.119 marketing or about business, about life. Always wanting to connect with with folks 289 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:15.920 over there. So fantastic episode. If you have yet to follow, be 290 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:21.000 to be growth on whatever podcast platform you're listening to the song, be sure 291 00:21:21.039 --> 00:21:23.279 to do that so you never miss an episode. Will be back real soon 292 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:27.799 with more content for you want to help you continue to innovate and be the 293 00:21:27.839 --> 00:21:33.240 best you can be in your marketing efforts. Keep doing work that matters and 294 00:21:33.680 --> 00:22:03.400 have a great one.