#Agency 15: Lessons in Innovation from a Late Blooming Entrepreneur w/ Keith Scandone

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:09.269 Hey everyone, logan with sweet fish here. As you may already know, 2 00:00:09.470 --> 00:00:14.109 we've had the HASHTAG agency series running for a while now here on bb growth. 3 00:00:14.830 --> 00:00:18.710 Over the next several weeks you'll be able to listen in to select episodes 4 00:00:19.030 --> 00:00:24.620 of the Innovative Agency, hosted by Sharon Tork as she leads conversations with agency 5 00:00:24.660 --> 00:00:28.940 leaders about how their teams are staying on the cutting edge of marketing trends, 6 00:00:29.300 --> 00:00:33.380 how they're adapting their businesses to meet new challenges and a whole lot more. 7 00:00:34.140 --> 00:00:38.929 All right, let's get into the episode. Hi, everybody, a cheer 8 00:00:39.009 --> 00:00:43.770 and Tork here. Welcome back to another episode of the Innovative Agency, and 9 00:00:44.530 --> 00:00:49.689 today is a really fun day for me because it's not every day that I 10 00:00:49.890 --> 00:00:56.520 get to talk with the owner of an agency that is specifically has specifically built 11 00:00:56.640 --> 00:01:00.679 really their offerings and and the content that they used to describe them, and 12 00:01:00.759 --> 00:01:03.989 I'll tell you what I mean by that later through the Lens of innovation. 13 00:01:04.269 --> 00:01:10.310 And so when you have a podcast called the innovative agency and you get an 14 00:01:10.349 --> 00:01:15.989 opportunity to talk to the owner of a true innovative agency, it's a good 15 00:01:15.030 --> 00:01:19.459 day. So I want to welcome today Keith's hand doone who is a CEO 16 00:01:19.859 --> 00:01:25.739 of othree world, based in Philadelphia. Keith, thank you so much for 17 00:01:25.780 --> 00:01:29.700 joining me today on the podcast and thank you so much for having share and 18 00:01:29.819 --> 00:01:34.250 looking forward to it. I'm excited too. So you'RE BASIC PHILADELPHIA? Correct? 19 00:01:34.810 --> 00:01:40.409 Yes, I am. Yeah, and I really want to suspend some 20 00:01:40.489 --> 00:01:46.209 time talking about how your agency views innovation and how it practices it. But 21 00:01:46.609 --> 00:01:49.400 let's share a little bit of your story first of all, because we were 22 00:01:49.400 --> 00:01:55.120 chatting earlier and you've got a really diverse and fascinating background, including one thing 23 00:01:55.159 --> 00:01:57.400 that we share in common, which is that we were both political science majors 24 00:01:57.840 --> 00:02:01.349 in college, and there's absolutely nothing in the world you can do with that 25 00:02:01.549 --> 00:02:06.870 other than either go to law school, which you wisely decided not to do, 26 00:02:07.229 --> 00:02:12.150 are you become an innovator, an innovator. So let's talk a little 27 00:02:12.150 --> 00:02:15.740 bit about how you got from there to to founding outhree bring you up to 28 00:02:15.780 --> 00:02:19.620 where it is now. Yeah, absolutely, you know, as I mentioned 29 00:02:19.659 --> 00:02:23.419 earlier, definitely an unorthodox path and I give hope to a lot of potential 30 00:02:23.460 --> 00:02:30.129 entrepreneurs that either kind of starting late in life or have no real specific experience, 31 00:02:30.250 --> 00:02:32.090 and what they decide to be an entrepreneur in because that's exactly me. 32 00:02:32.889 --> 00:02:38.210 So yeah, so after after college, I did not leverage my political science 33 00:02:38.289 --> 00:02:43.169 degree at all. I actually moved out to Los Angeles to pursue acting. 34 00:02:43.289 --> 00:02:46.039 I had done a little bit of acting in college, but it is something 35 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:51.800 that's really just a dove right into it. I just was extraordinarily passionate for 36 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:53.960 it and really want to go to Los Angeles for variety of reasons. One, 37 00:02:54.000 --> 00:02:57.919 I was more interested in kind of the the film and TV side of 38 00:02:57.919 --> 00:03:00.430 the industry versus kind of theater, which would have been New York, and 39 00:03:00.590 --> 00:03:04.550 also, I just absolutely hated the cold weather on these coast so I thought 40 00:03:04.550 --> 00:03:07.629 that La was going to provide both of those things. So I went out 41 00:03:07.629 --> 00:03:10.430 to Los Angeles not knowing anybody and really not knowing anything about the industry. 42 00:03:10.469 --> 00:03:15.500 So it and I spent seven years out there and it really kind of taught 43 00:03:15.500 --> 00:03:17.139 me, number one, eventually, about the industry, but it taught me 44 00:03:17.180 --> 00:03:21.620 a lot about myself. You're really kind of forced, when you're in a 45 00:03:21.780 --> 00:03:25.139 brand new city and a brand new industry, to really kind of like dig 46 00:03:25.259 --> 00:03:30.210 deep and you don't rely on, you know, traditional obvious relationships or connections 47 00:03:30.289 --> 00:03:32.810 or things you normally would fall back on a life. I mean you're really 48 00:03:34.330 --> 00:03:37.729 your start your entrepreneurial kind of out of the gate, and so that really 49 00:03:38.090 --> 00:03:42.639 kind of that began my journey to just have a more entrepreneurial mindset and being 50 00:03:42.840 --> 00:03:47.120 independent kind of mindset. So I spent seven years out there pursuing acting and 51 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:53.280 did just about every single job you can possibly imagine it. Did a lot 52 00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:57.069 of actual plays. I was probably a bit about seven plays, did tons 53 00:03:57.110 --> 00:04:01.110 and tons and tons of small indie films, TV, things that nature, 54 00:04:01.310 --> 00:04:04.830 and then I eventually wrote a play that was actually produced and it was really 55 00:04:04.909 --> 00:04:10.219 that experienced specifically that it drew me to the idea of that. I wanted 56 00:04:10.259 --> 00:04:12.780 to kind of get act out of acting and wanted to be a some sort 57 00:04:12.819 --> 00:04:15.339 of producing role in life. And what I enjoyed about the plays that I 58 00:04:15.500 --> 00:04:18.540 was I was kind of forced to hide the director, hire the actor, 59 00:04:18.579 --> 00:04:21.180 to the set design, to the promotion of the play and again was in 60 00:04:21.259 --> 00:04:26.529 a real producing role. So it's really that time that, while I love 61 00:04:26.689 --> 00:04:29.209 acting, I didn't like the business per shoot of it and realize that I 62 00:04:29.290 --> 00:04:31.290 really would rather be in a in a place where I have more impact and 63 00:04:31.889 --> 00:04:36.449 more influence and more control, essentially, of my my future. So decided 64 00:04:36.490 --> 00:04:42.240 to kind of pack up my bags and come back to chilly, Gritty Philadelphia, 65 00:04:42.439 --> 00:04:45.680 and it was really supposed to be just like a temporary stop really on 66 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:47.959 my journey, just because I was from the Philadelphia Area, you know, 67 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:51.120 the suburbs, and you know, you know, I took a job obviously 68 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:55.189 pretty quickly. I picked the Convention Center on a marketing idea because I had 69 00:04:55.269 --> 00:05:00.230 some kind of creative abilities and background about about myself which they which they bought 70 00:05:00.350 --> 00:05:02.870 and it was great. I was able to work for them as a consultant 71 00:05:03.230 --> 00:05:06.819 and then started working at this, you know, really small boutique kind of 72 00:05:06.860 --> 00:05:13.139 Web Design Development Company who also had this online entertainment city guide and they've been 73 00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:15.300 around about five years, but we're sort of kind of shuffle longer, you 74 00:05:15.379 --> 00:05:19.220 know, in many ways we're looking for someone just to kind of breathe some 75 00:05:19.300 --> 00:05:24.009 more life into them. And whatever reason, I don't know, I was 76 00:05:24.009 --> 00:05:28.529 behind enthusiasm or just my background in and some of the writing that I had 77 00:05:28.529 --> 00:05:30.769 done, because the content was a big part of their of their website. 78 00:05:31.170 --> 00:05:34.290 But sort of convinced them to kind of give me a marketing role there and 79 00:05:34.370 --> 00:05:39.360 to really oversee the entire site. That's from an editorial standpoint and the editorial 80 00:05:39.399 --> 00:05:43.759 team for the whole brand aspect of things than kind of build it up in 81 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:46.319 many ways. But also they had this you know web design development side. 82 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:49.670 So what they would often do, and I was part of this, helped 83 00:05:49.750 --> 00:05:56.189 sell website projects and then use the online city guide to kind of promote those, 84 00:05:56.350 --> 00:05:59.149 you know, bars, restaurants, whatever, the websites that they were 85 00:05:59.550 --> 00:06:01.670 they were building. So in talking to them, just realize that, look, 86 00:06:01.750 --> 00:06:04.620 I really wanted to scale their business in some way or just as it 87 00:06:04.699 --> 00:06:08.620 as a person wanted to scale, and they didn't. I mean they really 88 00:06:08.660 --> 00:06:11.660 wanted to keep, you know, keep it pretty small. They really thought 89 00:06:11.699 --> 00:06:15.019 that was a really good business model for working with these really small, kind 90 00:06:15.060 --> 00:06:18.170 of mom and popular bars and restaurants and such. And so I decided to 91 00:06:18.209 --> 00:06:23.930 leave the company and while I was there I met to freely answers. One 92 00:06:24.089 --> 00:06:27.370 was a sort of a brand designer, web designer, and the other was 93 00:06:27.410 --> 00:06:30.290 a developer, programmer, and just really kind of decided like, let's just 94 00:06:30.449 --> 00:06:34.959 merge our kind of expertise and talents together and start a business and it would 95 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:38.680 be kind of marketing, design and technology. I would represent marketing and the 96 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:42.600 other two owners would would represent the you know, the other two departments of 97 00:06:42.639 --> 00:06:46.240 such and so so, coming up on fifteen years. That's that's how it 98 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:49.709 all started. Well, that's I love. I have got to believe that 99 00:06:50.509 --> 00:06:56.949 sort of the diversity of experiences you had and your life prior to founding the 100 00:06:56.990 --> 00:07:02.339 agency sort of contribute to the spirit of innovation that you and your team have 101 00:07:02.779 --> 00:07:06.620 as you're building the business today. And so let's talk a little bit about 102 00:07:06.620 --> 00:07:12.980 ohthree world and on what it is and how it started in and what it 103 00:07:13.060 --> 00:07:17.129 does now, because I think there's a lot of lessons that the agency leaders 104 00:07:17.250 --> 00:07:21.930 who might be listening to this can take from how you evolved at the start, 105 00:07:21.970 --> 00:07:29.329 because you didn't really start oh three and as a digital products are digital 106 00:07:29.410 --> 00:07:32.079 innovation agency. I mean that may have been at its core, but you 107 00:07:32.199 --> 00:07:35.920 really started on a more hesitate use the word traditional, but yeah, I'm 108 00:07:35.959 --> 00:07:42.399 more traditional path, as brand development agency. Right. Yeah, absolutely. 109 00:07:42.399 --> 00:07:46.110 We start as a brand communications agency and we would sort of we always had 110 00:07:46.149 --> 00:07:49.990 a digital slant or digital component to us, which, again, fifteen years 111 00:07:49.990 --> 00:07:54.149 ago, was unique, particularly for a company our size. So, but 112 00:07:54.269 --> 00:07:59.139 we would do identity development work and then some collateral development and then do websites, 113 00:07:59.259 --> 00:08:01.420 and not just the design of them. We also had our own content 114 00:08:01.500 --> 00:08:03.100 manager system, which was unique. You know that, you know at that 115 00:08:03.220 --> 00:08:05.819 point of fifteen years ago or so, and we'll be able to handle the 116 00:08:05.899 --> 00:08:09.860 hosting. So it was a nice kind of like shoop the nuts package for 117 00:08:09.939 --> 00:08:13.370 like a small business. So but just as we scaled and as we grew, 118 00:08:13.810 --> 00:08:18.290 we started to get opportunities for branding that were sort of, I don't 119 00:08:18.290 --> 00:08:20.810 say, out of our comfort zone, which is we was kind of an 120 00:08:20.850 --> 00:08:22.810 inflection point like all right, do we want to go left or right, 121 00:08:22.850 --> 00:08:24.370 like we want to go deep into digital? Where do we want to kind 122 00:08:24.410 --> 00:08:28.279 of stay on the kind of branding side and just realize that the branding, 123 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:31.800 number one, is really difficult, I found, because it's hard to price 124 00:08:31.120 --> 00:08:35.639 to it's very subjective and immediately turns to client into an expert. They see 125 00:08:35.679 --> 00:08:39.000 like a logo, they respond just like viscerally to like that logo. So 126 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:43.750 it was difficult that regard and and again, just like specialization, realizing that 127 00:08:43.830 --> 00:08:48.470 there was differentiation on the technology side of things. Again, particularly back then, 128 00:08:48.549 --> 00:08:52.830 and we change course about too long after we started, maybe like ab 129 00:08:52.909 --> 00:08:56.659 about three years or so, in change from a branding, a brand communications 130 00:08:56.740 --> 00:09:01.259 company to really kind of a digital or interactive agency essentially. And again we 131 00:09:01.379 --> 00:09:05.860 just we have more interest there. We thought that there was better options to 132 00:09:05.980 --> 00:09:09.809 scale, their better differentiation, and so then we started doing much larger websites 133 00:09:09.809 --> 00:09:16.450 and application builds, ecommerce sites, things that were extraordinarily unique and customized and 134 00:09:16.610 --> 00:09:18.610 complex, a lot of integration work on the back end and with third party 135 00:09:18.649 --> 00:09:24.720 systems or or companies internal proprietary systems. We took on projects that, frankly, 136 00:09:24.799 --> 00:09:28.519 other, you know, agencies were either not capable or willing to take 137 00:09:28.559 --> 00:09:31.919 on or just interested in doing. And the other side sharing that really helps 138 00:09:31.960 --> 00:09:37.080 us with the technology standpoint is, and this is still this is actually business 139 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:39.070 model today. We were able to rely on a lot of partners to bring 140 00:09:39.110 --> 00:09:43.669 US business. So, for example, a lot of traditional agencies came to 141 00:09:43.830 --> 00:09:46.909 us to do the website development for their clients. So we got in working 142 00:09:46.950 --> 00:09:52.110 with very, very big brands early on and that was like our sales funnel. 143 00:09:52.110 --> 00:09:54.620 We had these different AD agencies that, listen, we could do branding 144 00:09:54.659 --> 00:09:58.100 and we could do campaign development and we can do media bizzed, but we 145 00:09:58.179 --> 00:10:01.779 can't do a website. So we became sort of the behind the the scenes 146 00:10:01.940 --> 00:10:05.460 website Development Cup for, you know, some of these agencies and more traditional, 147 00:10:05.860 --> 00:10:07.690 you know companies as such, which really enabled us to kind of get 148 00:10:07.690 --> 00:10:11.850 off the ground. I mean it was a it was a huge against sales 149 00:10:11.889 --> 00:10:13.649 funnel and, you know, an opportunity in that regard. So again, 150 00:10:13.690 --> 00:10:18.289 as we continue to scale and do larger website, we got to another sort 151 00:10:18.330 --> 00:10:20.250 of inflection point about seven or eight years ago and just said, listen, 152 00:10:20.289 --> 00:10:24.159 you know, the webs website developments now becoming it's kind of the time caught 153 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:28.279 up with a US conto matage assists from our popular life wordpress and things of 154 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.240 that nature. So it became more of a commodity and there there there were 155 00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:35.639 a lot of not just kind of plug and play solutions like a square space 156 00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:37.190 or something like that, but also there's a lot of agencies are able to 157 00:10:37.230 --> 00:10:41.389 do this and it was really hard differentiating. Well, while why, why 158 00:10:41.509 --> 00:10:46.230 our project price is going to be double the cost of someone else, and 159 00:10:46.389 --> 00:10:48.710 also just didn't like going from project to project. We really wouldn't have an 160 00:10:48.750 --> 00:10:52.259 impact and an influence on an organization as we really kind of took a step 161 00:10:52.299 --> 00:10:54.820 back. As you know, the work that we like doing best is what 162 00:10:54.899 --> 00:10:58.659 a maybe a start up comes to us and they have a business idea for 163 00:10:58.740 --> 00:11:01.820 a digital product but they don't really know. It's just a concept. But 164 00:11:01.940 --> 00:11:07.129 they really need someone to do like a business analysis and they really need to 165 00:11:07.250 --> 00:11:11.610 put like a strategy in place and pick a technology and give them a road 166 00:11:11.649 --> 00:11:16.250 map and build an MVP and we love doing that. It's just the problem 167 00:11:16.289 --> 00:11:18.879 in the startup space is they didn't have enough vision or sometimes enough money to 168 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:22.320 keep it going. So, like what we took that idea of like working 169 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:26.480 on digital products and just sort of repackage it up to enterprise clients, like 170 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:31.519 they're looking to target a new demo, but they probably need to do so 171 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:35.590 through a digital product. So we kind of then called ourselves a digital product 172 00:11:35.789 --> 00:11:39.789 agency and just went really hard to the hold with the head and fortunately, 173 00:11:39.029 --> 00:11:43.509 kind of just putting that out there and US starting to pitch ourselves that way, 174 00:11:43.990 --> 00:11:48.539 we started slowly getting digital product specific work. So now and again we'll 175 00:11:48.539 --> 00:11:50.700 talk a little bit more about innovation and all these are the things we have 176 00:11:50.779 --> 00:11:54.740 going on, but but really now we are a digital brodic agency as, 177 00:11:54.740 --> 00:11:58.220 I guess, the underpinning. But we do everything from doing just digital product 178 00:11:58.259 --> 00:12:03.250 work for clients and be that partner, to doing digital transformation work, which 179 00:12:03.289 --> 00:12:07.889 include looking at all of their entire digital ecosystem, including maybe digital products or 180 00:12:09.289 --> 00:12:13.289 websites or whatever, and looking for recommendations or suggestions or obviously fixes from user 181 00:12:13.330 --> 00:12:18.600 experience technology standpoint, and then implemating implementing that. And then the third bucket 182 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:22.039 is really actually working with an Avagen team specifically. So they're sort of like 183 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:26.399 the three types of relationships we have and there's a kind of a venn diagram 184 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:31.190 and overlap with all of those three different relationships as well. Right. Well, 185 00:12:31.230 --> 00:12:37.750 I mean the obviously the common thread through all that is your digital expertise 186 00:12:37.149 --> 00:12:41.429 and your understanding of how that enter in, how that how you use it 187 00:12:41.549 --> 00:12:46.860 to create a customer experience or a customer journey. But those are just the 188 00:12:46.980 --> 00:12:54.179 buckets of the digital product work that you do for clients. In addition to 189 00:12:54.340 --> 00:13:01.210 that, you've also as an agency, you have you sort of I look 190 00:13:01.250 --> 00:13:05.090 at as three big buckets, one of which contains the three buckets you just 191 00:13:05.250 --> 00:13:09.289 mentioned. You've got your work for clients or digital product work. But then 192 00:13:09.330 --> 00:13:13.480 you've created some space in the agency to sort of develop a laboratory approach to 193 00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:20.000 experimentation and and and just sort of, I guess, playing I'll call it. 194 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:24.440 And then and then your third are is you started actually making some bets 195 00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:30.669 on other ventures on behalf of the agency. So talk a little bit about 196 00:13:30.950 --> 00:13:35.509 because I think agency owners this is for some of them their ideal future, 197 00:13:35.549 --> 00:13:37.909 but they're not sure how to get there and some of them play here and 198 00:13:37.990 --> 00:13:41.220 there with it, but they're not exactly sure how to do it successfully. 199 00:13:41.340 --> 00:13:48.100 So how did you create the time and space to sort of develop this laboratory 200 00:13:48.139 --> 00:13:54.340 approach to experimentation, strategic experimentation, you call it, and then make the 201 00:13:54.419 --> 00:14:00.169 decision thereafter to start making some bets by and besting in some other ventures? 202 00:14:01.049 --> 00:14:03.250 Sure, so, you know, I think it's always been in the DNA 203 00:14:03.409 --> 00:14:05.929 so which it's actually just now there's just two partners, myself and my Gatsby, 204 00:14:07.090 --> 00:14:11.759 and these are chief experience or innovation officer on this the CEO of the 205 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:16.519 company. But I think that one of the benefits of actually my unorthodox path, 206 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:18.200 and his as well, he didn't really work at agencies in the past, 207 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:22.559 is that I'm sort of a generalist in many ways and I look at 208 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:26.190 business as business. It just so happens that I run a design and technology 209 00:14:26.230 --> 00:14:30.309 business, but I'm not a designer or technologist. So I really just look 210 00:14:30.389 --> 00:14:35.870 at being an opportunistic company. Obviously what's going to help the company scale in 211 00:14:35.029 --> 00:14:39.779 a meaningful way based on the work that we do, but also we shouldn't 212 00:14:39.779 --> 00:14:43.620 we shouldn't be kind of held back by that exclusively, like we should look 213 00:14:43.620 --> 00:14:46.340 for other ways, basically, to whether it's getting ourselves out there, getting 214 00:14:46.340 --> 00:14:50.980 more exposure or just proving that we are in innovative company. So we have 215 00:14:52.179 --> 00:14:54.690 even on a even on a day to day a basis and a year to 216 00:14:54.730 --> 00:14:58.850 year basis in the work that we do. We rethink everything constantly and everybody 217 00:14:58.929 --> 00:15:01.129 does, not just Mike and I from the top. Everybody has the ability 218 00:15:01.169 --> 00:15:05.370 to influence an impact. Processes were very tech agnostic. So we look at 219 00:15:05.370 --> 00:15:11.519 a solution where like, let's let's literally wipe the slate clean, let's look 220 00:15:11.559 --> 00:15:15.000 what your business pain points are and fresh set of eyes, let's provide a 221 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:18.039 solution. So how we do our day to day is already sort of like 222 00:15:18.279 --> 00:15:22.470 innovative and part of like the mindset and part of how Mike and I build 223 00:15:22.509 --> 00:15:24.149 the culture or, you know, or kind of grow the company. But 224 00:15:24.389 --> 00:15:28.590 the labs thing was something, you know, very intentional that we put in 225 00:15:28.710 --> 00:15:31.629 place probably about five years ago or so and wanted to treat it, and 226 00:15:31.710 --> 00:15:35.669 I think a lot of ass have this problem, is you have to treat 227 00:15:35.669 --> 00:15:37.779 it like a client. You can't look at this like all, get to 228 00:15:37.860 --> 00:15:41.059 that one, I have some time. No, you have to make the 229 00:15:41.179 --> 00:15:43.299 time for it. So we did is we put this side, we put 230 00:15:43.299 --> 00:15:46.899 aside a certain amount of hours, let's say, you know, two hundred 231 00:15:46.940 --> 00:15:52.610 hours or so a quarter, and very specifically had a focus on we want 232 00:15:52.690 --> 00:15:58.490 to experiment with new technology, and it might be voice or Vr or ai, 233 00:15:58.649 --> 00:16:00.610 I mean, you know all the buzz words, whatever it might be, 234 00:16:02.210 --> 00:16:04.600 that we didn't have enough experience to go pitch to a client and it 235 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:08.639 was still very kind of new and Nyson in a lot of its ways anyway, 236 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:15.440 without this technology. So then enabled us to put a very specific amount 237 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.230 of time around something and say we have to produce something in this short period 238 00:16:18.230 --> 00:16:22.269 of time, which also then impacts all the work that we do because it 239 00:16:22.590 --> 00:16:26.070 forces us to be a little bit more nimble and think quickly and think in 240 00:16:26.309 --> 00:16:30.149 a prototype sense or thinking MVP sense. So and that that program has become 241 00:16:30.269 --> 00:16:33.820 sort of more sophisticated over time. Share and so at first it was like, 242 00:16:34.059 --> 00:16:37.299 Hey, whoever has a cool idea to to leverage some new technology, 243 00:16:37.379 --> 00:16:41.179 just pitch it to us and then we'll decide which is the coolest. And 244 00:16:41.259 --> 00:16:44.139 then we start to look at all right, let's start a lining. Where 245 00:16:44.139 --> 00:16:47.100 do we want the business to go? What are our clients asking about? 246 00:16:47.250 --> 00:16:49.330 What's happening in the industry? And let's be a little more targeted that like, 247 00:16:49.409 --> 00:16:52.730 all right, we really need to focus on whatever might be voiced and 248 00:16:52.809 --> 00:16:57.690 conversational design. Let's go experiment with something specifically with Alexa, and then we'll 249 00:16:57.730 --> 00:17:02.639 take that and then let's go have this conversation with clients about it and try 250 00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:06.279 to get work. And that's now is what is turned into. So it 251 00:17:06.519 --> 00:17:08.720 wasn't you know, it started as something kind of experimental and fun and different 252 00:17:08.759 --> 00:17:11.680 way of thinking, and now we made it at a very strategic part of 253 00:17:11.759 --> 00:17:17.509 our organization that people think that we're an innovation company and they know that we're 254 00:17:17.549 --> 00:17:19.430 doing this last program and they want that inside of their organization. which is 255 00:17:19.509 --> 00:17:23.990 were often where we're hired specifically by innovation teams because they've seen US kind of 256 00:17:25.109 --> 00:17:27.710 stand up this very nimble kind of operation. So yeah, so I mean 257 00:17:27.789 --> 00:17:32.660 that the experience that that you had mentionalized agency owners. You really have got 258 00:17:32.779 --> 00:17:34.779 to make a commitment, but you can do it at a very grasperous level. 259 00:17:34.819 --> 00:17:37.460 It does not have to be like we need to spend tens of thousands 260 00:17:37.460 --> 00:17:41.700 or hundred thousand dollars or need to have people dedicated to it. You just 261 00:17:41.779 --> 00:17:45.210 need to have baby steps and I think by putting a very specific budget of 262 00:17:45.289 --> 00:17:48.089 hours around that is a good is a good place to start right. And 263 00:17:48.970 --> 00:17:53.769 did you do this in order to create some use cases, are case studies 264 00:17:53.849 --> 00:18:00.319 that you could use to market the services and products of the agency can provide, 265 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:06.200 or was this something you really wanted to do to stretch the sort of 266 00:18:06.279 --> 00:18:11.400 the agencies capabilities and entrepreneurial experience? It's I'd say it's kind of all the 267 00:18:11.480 --> 00:18:15.549 above. I mean the I think that if you were to ask people at 268 00:18:15.589 --> 00:18:18.470 thousand three what they love the most about thou three is they like that there's 269 00:18:18.509 --> 00:18:23.230 something new and fresh and challenging constantly. They like working here because we're not 270 00:18:23.549 --> 00:18:27.740 doing the same technology, the same work. Everything is really, really, 271 00:18:27.819 --> 00:18:32.180 really unique. It's forcing them to really think differently and to have a lot 272 00:18:32.259 --> 00:18:36.420 of impact, influence, influence on how things are done, from project or 273 00:18:36.460 --> 00:18:38.180 project, regardless of where you are, your role, by the way, 274 00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:41.730 it doesn't really matter. You don't need to be like a manager or director. 275 00:18:41.089 --> 00:18:45.130 So I think they really like this. Or from a recruitment standpoint it's 276 00:18:45.130 --> 00:18:48.369 been huge. People see that we experimentitude new technology, that we have a 277 00:18:48.769 --> 00:18:52.730 labs program that we have sort of fun and we're very, very business orientered, 278 00:18:52.769 --> 00:18:56.920 a very business focus and very utilized, utilization centric and such. But 279 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:02.400 they really like that we allow that flexibility to explore different things than they can 280 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:06.880 come from any, any, any person here. And then certainly, obviously 281 00:19:06.920 --> 00:19:08.400 from a client standpoint. I mean you looked at our site and I'm sure 282 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:12.549 that you've looked at tons and tons and tons the company's websites that you've interviewed. 283 00:19:12.829 --> 00:19:18.549 We all sound the same. It's really hard to differentiating yourself, really 284 00:19:18.630 --> 00:19:22.990 hard, I don't care. Literally. I've been to know hundreds of, 285 00:19:22.069 --> 00:19:25.579 not thousands, the sites. To myself, it's kind of silly at this 286 00:19:25.700 --> 00:19:30.660 point. So try to continue to find ways that separate us and then really 287 00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:33.660 start to selling. I mean a lot of times we get into business relationships 288 00:19:33.740 --> 00:19:37.980 because we're selling our labs program as like this is who we are as an 289 00:19:37.980 --> 00:19:41.569 organization, how we think. We end up not being hired for doing any 290 00:19:41.609 --> 00:19:44.410 of that stuff that comes out of a labs program but they just like that 291 00:19:44.529 --> 00:19:47.569 we think differently and then we've made a commitment that way and they're like I 292 00:19:47.769 --> 00:19:51.569 need a forward thinking company like that. And oftentimes turn you can't get that 293 00:19:51.650 --> 00:19:55.240 work with clients. They won't let you be that innovative and take those kinds 294 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:57.000 of risks. So if you're not willing to do it by yourself, you 295 00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:00.119 might never get it. So you kind of it's sort of a risk, 296 00:20:00.400 --> 00:20:03.920 but it's kind of a necessary risk and you know, the reward is way 297 00:20:04.039 --> 00:20:07.509 greater, I believe, than the risk, which is why we've continue to 298 00:20:07.549 --> 00:20:15.789 double down in innovation in general. Do you use any of the development or 299 00:20:15.869 --> 00:20:21.859 ideation that comes out of the labs work and case studies or or the like 300 00:20:22.380 --> 00:20:26.140 when you are pitching for business? Do you sort of throw that into the 301 00:20:26.259 --> 00:20:33.779 mix as an example of either your capabilities or your your style of strategic thinking 302 00:20:33.819 --> 00:20:37.170 absolutely. I mean I honestly I try to lead with that because again, 303 00:20:37.210 --> 00:20:41.049 we can go through case studies and it's all great and it's good thinking. 304 00:20:41.170 --> 00:20:44.490 It looks nice, but so can every other agency. So they can, 305 00:20:44.730 --> 00:20:47.410 they can do the basic work. I mean, that's not why people should 306 00:20:47.410 --> 00:20:51.359 hire us. Really try to focus on, you know, we're our our 307 00:20:51.440 --> 00:20:55.039 core. I mean we're probably a user experience company and that's a very, 308 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:57.720 very broad term, but we take it very literally that it's not just user 309 00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:03.240 experience that digital sense. I mean our office is like all about user experience. 310 00:21:03.279 --> 00:21:06.509 I mean it is a beautiful, Nice, like industrial law style office. 311 00:21:06.910 --> 00:21:10.670 Our clients like coming here to work and to meet with us. Our 312 00:21:10.710 --> 00:21:14.990 employees like being here. When we do our conferences, they're very, very 313 00:21:15.029 --> 00:21:18.220 high touch. It's all about the user experience for that day. And we're 314 00:21:18.259 --> 00:21:22.779 not events specialist and I would still say that we have thrown some of the 315 00:21:22.819 --> 00:21:26.460 best events in Philadelphia because we take the user experience so important and we make 316 00:21:26.579 --> 00:21:30.980 no money on the minor. So I definitely focus on us as as a 317 00:21:32.019 --> 00:21:36.769 culture and as an organization for what we do in the industry, in the 318 00:21:36.849 --> 00:21:41.289 marketplace, with the for conferences that we've thrown how we basically structure our office, 319 00:21:41.730 --> 00:21:44.769 how we do our thinking, how we do labs and definitely some of 320 00:21:44.809 --> 00:21:47.960 the ideas that have come out of labs, because again, they're just some 321 00:21:48.039 --> 00:21:48.960 of them. I'm sure you look at our site. Some were just fun 322 00:21:49.119 --> 00:21:52.640 or funny, but there's also like a real business use case for them as 323 00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:56.319 well. We do them from almost a PR standpoint to be like, Oh, 324 00:21:56.359 --> 00:21:57.599 this is a funny way to use it, but also you can use 325 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:00.829 this technology and more of a business use case. And so, as they 326 00:22:00.869 --> 00:22:03.710 said, they rarely hire us to be like I want you to build that 327 00:22:03.869 --> 00:22:07.710 for me, but they hire us with thinking I need you to do this 328 00:22:07.910 --> 00:22:11.349 now, but I'm really hiring you because you're innovative and I want you to 329 00:22:11.509 --> 00:22:14.670 keep us ahead of the curve. So if they know that we think that 330 00:22:14.869 --> 00:22:18.220 way, they know and hope that it will eventually think that way for them 331 00:22:18.259 --> 00:22:22.980 as an organization as well. Have you been able to use your because I 332 00:22:23.380 --> 00:22:29.220 you know, the the larger a brand you end up teeming with as a 333 00:22:29.380 --> 00:22:33.930 client, especially if there are enterprise brands, the the tolerance for risk starts 334 00:22:33.970 --> 00:22:38.130 to shrink and shrink and shrink. The larger client brand you work with, 335 00:22:38.490 --> 00:22:45.000 and as these has been the experience of agencies that we work with at my 336 00:22:45.160 --> 00:22:48.960 firm, the become a little less willing to take chances. The CEMOL becomes 337 00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:53.720 a little more nervous about doing something risky. There's a lot of stakeholders to 338 00:22:53.839 --> 00:23:00.230 please, etc. Do you feel like sort of your approach or your internal 339 00:23:00.390 --> 00:23:07.869 work in innovation helps you advocate a little bit more, I don't know, 340 00:23:07.069 --> 00:23:14.779 credibly with the client to take some chances or some risks with you on their 341 00:23:14.900 --> 00:23:18.059 behalf? You know I'll say I'll say this. Yes, absolutely, but 342 00:23:18.660 --> 00:23:22.740 you really were not for everybody, and what I mean by that is we 343 00:23:23.019 --> 00:23:29.289 really ask tough questions and we really kind of forced them to think differently. 344 00:23:29.769 --> 00:23:33.890 So they've got to have sort of a progressive growth mindset in general and be 345 00:23:34.009 --> 00:23:37.490 willing to take some risks. Otherwise we're just not the company for them. 346 00:23:37.849 --> 00:23:44.519 So it really the profile of client that we look for, is not just 347 00:23:44.599 --> 00:23:48.039 kind of like size or brand or project, but also who are the people 348 00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:51.680 who are the decisionmakers, because old something we get in there. We're dealing 349 00:23:51.720 --> 00:23:53.240 with a lot of business politics. I mean we're there. There's a lot 350 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:57.269 of almost like business consulting or strategy we have to do because we're breaking down 351 00:23:57.269 --> 00:24:02.589 a lot of internal silos. When you're doing oh and you're doing customer journey 352 00:24:02.630 --> 00:24:07.150 and user experience across several different departments, is you can imagine it. I'm 353 00:24:07.190 --> 00:24:10.779 sure you've seen there's a lot of politics in those different departments. But you 354 00:24:10.900 --> 00:24:11.900 have to and it's going to be listen, there's going to be challenges, 355 00:24:12.099 --> 00:24:17.460 but you at least have to have a organization that is open to recognizing that, 356 00:24:17.619 --> 00:24:22.180 being sort of selfaware and wanting the help cer. Typically there's a couple 357 00:24:22.180 --> 00:24:26.490 of things. One, we rarely work with the number one in that brand's 358 00:24:26.490 --> 00:24:30.210 kind of category. We like the people that are number two or beyond, 359 00:24:30.250 --> 00:24:33.690 the people that know that they're working hard to get to number one and they 360 00:24:33.730 --> 00:24:36.849 have to do things differently to get there. It's the same sort of scrapping 361 00:24:36.849 --> 00:24:38.799 mentality. Or three has I mean we're a fifty person company, we're not 362 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:41.680 a five hundred person company, so we have to do things differently and more 363 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:45.680 scrappy sense. So we look for clients that are like hungry and even if 364 00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:49.000 they're huge, but they still know that they're not the biggest and they're not 365 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:53.109 the best. So I think there's has to be a tolerance definitely inside the 366 00:24:53.190 --> 00:24:56.269 organization of the people to be willing to do that. And we work in 367 00:24:56.349 --> 00:25:02.990 some really sort of conservative regulated market places. We do a lot of work 368 00:25:03.029 --> 00:25:06.509 in financial we do a lot of work in insurance, a lot of working 369 00:25:06.589 --> 00:25:11.299 just professional services. I've actually found the consumer brand companies are more difficult to 370 00:25:11.339 --> 00:25:15.220 work with because they don't have the patients to really go through something that's going 371 00:25:15.220 --> 00:25:22.450 to take potentially years to totally turn the corn with their digital transformation. They 372 00:25:22.529 --> 00:25:25.369 want like the very campaign focus, like I want to see something cool now, 373 00:25:26.369 --> 00:25:27.609 so and it just doesn't work that way. If you really want to 374 00:25:27.650 --> 00:25:33.450 make huge changes from kind of your digital foundation and your digital kind of ecosystem 375 00:25:33.809 --> 00:25:37.559 right now, I love it. I mean, you know, I think 376 00:25:37.759 --> 00:25:44.279 that what agency leaders can can take away from your experiences. You know, 377 00:25:44.440 --> 00:25:49.869 first of all, I have a big deal of respect as somebody who values 378 00:25:49.950 --> 00:25:57.190 innovation and intellectual property and who wishes more agencies would take some space to leverage 379 00:25:57.349 --> 00:26:03.109 what they have within their four walls and monetize it. So I love that 380 00:26:03.390 --> 00:26:08.460 you are strong believers and creating some dedicated space for innovation, whether it's time, 381 00:26:10.059 --> 00:26:12.539 money, talent, and actually all three of those things probably. So 382 00:26:12.579 --> 00:26:17.140 I love that and I think agency leaders can learn a great deal from that. 383 00:26:17.900 --> 00:26:22.970 I think another thing that impressed me about the way you approach your work 384 00:26:22.210 --> 00:26:30.890 is that agency leaders should be thinking about how they can leverage their ideation or 385 00:26:30.970 --> 00:26:37.559 their own laboratory experiences, I'm using your your labs vernacular there, when they're 386 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:41.000 talking to clients about their capabilities and what they can do for them. You 387 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:44.119 know, be put it in the front and be proud of it and and 388 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:48.470 display it, just like you would display any of your other case studies or 389 00:26:48.470 --> 00:26:53.349 exam samples of client work and results. And then I particularly liked what you 390 00:26:53.470 --> 00:26:59.190 just said, which is that you know, not every agency is a good 391 00:26:59.269 --> 00:27:02.740 match for every client, even if it might feel like they're the right niche 392 00:27:02.819 --> 00:27:08.099 for you. They've got to be passionate or match your passion level for being 393 00:27:08.180 --> 00:27:14.099 innovative or for taking risks, or it's not going to work because either they're 394 00:27:14.140 --> 00:27:15.730 going to get impatient with you or you're going to get impatient with them and 395 00:27:15.849 --> 00:27:19.089 your goals are not going to be aligned. So I think there's a ton 396 00:27:19.130 --> 00:27:25.450 of great learning and therefore the agency people who are listening to today. The 397 00:27:25.890 --> 00:27:32.559 best sales tactic is honesty, and I don't think enough agencies actually use that. 398 00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:38.000 I think they stay what they believe the client wants to hear, and 399 00:27:38.680 --> 00:27:42.839 ultimately that's going to backfire because, number one, you're compromising yourself to some 400 00:27:44.000 --> 00:27:45.789 degree and there's also a probably a pretty good chance that you're saying yes, 401 00:27:45.869 --> 00:27:49.630 that things are not that great at so for us, we're very candid and 402 00:27:49.710 --> 00:27:53.349 we're very honest about whether we think we're good fit or not and if we're 403 00:27:53.390 --> 00:28:00.220 not, very respectfully will tell them why and oftentimes will even make introductions for 404 00:28:00.380 --> 00:28:03.140 them about who might be a good fit. So we're very, you know, 405 00:28:03.220 --> 00:28:06.420 consultative when it comes to that. Like, listen, I you're a 406 00:28:06.539 --> 00:28:10.019 great company, I love what you're doing. It's just, frankly, based 407 00:28:10.059 --> 00:28:12.650 on how we work and our process and maybe even our cost structure, it 408 00:28:12.970 --> 00:28:15.529 just doesn't, I don't think, work for what you know you guys need. 409 00:28:17.089 --> 00:28:19.170 But I think here's my recommendations. I would look for x company or 410 00:28:19.250 --> 00:28:22.210 here is a specific company. I mean we fuel a lot of business in 411 00:28:22.250 --> 00:28:26.960 this area just by sending the business a lot of other agencies and you know 412 00:28:26.960 --> 00:28:30.759 I'm sort of proud of that fact because it's obviously helping them out, but 413 00:28:30.799 --> 00:28:33.240 also it's helping the client out. It's being, you know, it's really 414 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:37.160 kind of being a matchmaker in many ways for that. So I just think 415 00:28:37.240 --> 00:28:40.079 that, listen, a lot of agencies have a ton of really, really 416 00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:44.670 talented people internally. They just have got to recognize that and take a step 417 00:28:44.710 --> 00:28:47.069 back and, you know, focused on the old adage. You know, 418 00:28:47.150 --> 00:28:49.150 I used to be at vistage, which was like a CEO leadership group, 419 00:28:49.549 --> 00:28:53.869 and yeah, so it was there that the statement they always say like are 420 00:28:53.910 --> 00:28:57.819 you working in the business or you working on the business? Right, and 421 00:28:57.900 --> 00:29:00.539 I think that it's a really simple statement, but it, you know, 422 00:29:00.539 --> 00:29:03.859 it speaks volumes. Like are you really just kind of like are you in 423 00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:07.299 every single client meeting? Are you in the weeds? Are you focusing on 424 00:29:07.460 --> 00:29:11.170 like what's right in front of you and you're just focusing on the trees, 425 00:29:11.569 --> 00:29:14.809 or are you looking at the farm? And I think as a as an 426 00:29:14.890 --> 00:29:18.890 owner, you should be a you should be a visionary for the organization, 427 00:29:18.329 --> 00:29:22.329 not where it is right now, but where it's going. You should always 428 00:29:22.329 --> 00:29:26.240 be looking ahead and if you're too tied into like just like Daytoday, financials 429 00:29:26.279 --> 00:29:27.720 and stuff. That's a problem. You have a bigger problem either with your 430 00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:32.720 financials or your administrator team or your ability to delegate, whatever it may be. 431 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:34.799 But you need to you need to give space, just as you said 432 00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:38.029 that. I think there was a really important point you we give space to 433 00:29:38.109 --> 00:29:42.109 our employees to think and to experiment. We need space as well so we 434 00:29:42.190 --> 00:29:45.109 can get out in the marketplace, so that we can learn more, that 435 00:29:45.230 --> 00:29:49.430 we can create some of vision opportunities and such and kind of take the company 436 00:29:49.430 --> 00:29:53.980 in a more kind of aggressive direction, essentially. So so, yeah, 437 00:29:55.019 --> 00:29:57.980 I think that. I think people have to be committed to that and recognize 438 00:29:59.019 --> 00:30:02.380 why they're doing it, why they're doing innovation, and there has to be 439 00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:04.059 a business point to it as well. I mean, as I said, 440 00:30:04.059 --> 00:30:07.890 we're very financially healthy company, fortunately. I mean our, you know, 441 00:30:08.009 --> 00:30:11.890 profit margins are and even it is over twenty percent, and we take that. 442 00:30:12.089 --> 00:30:15.289 You know, we were very sort of strict and smart about that. 443 00:30:15.849 --> 00:30:19.049 But we take a lot of calculated risk as well, and with that we 444 00:30:19.130 --> 00:30:22.279 can't just be like let's just go have fun, like let's do something that 445 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:26.079 is fun to work on but also is going to have business, meaning for 446 00:30:26.200 --> 00:30:30.039 us or for our clients in subway, and I think that he's sometimes miss 447 00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:32.759 that as well. They just do something fun and they just burned all that 448 00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:34.869 time and money and didn't use it for something more purposeful pulling. Yeah, 449 00:30:34.869 --> 00:30:40.349 and I mean that's circles back to that strategic approach to innovation that you sort 450 00:30:40.390 --> 00:30:42.829 of leave with you know, even in your communications to clients and on your 451 00:30:42.869 --> 00:30:47.710 website, and I think that's important. Everything, everything needs to sort of 452 00:30:47.750 --> 00:30:49.779 go to have a why behind it and you know it's okay to make some 453 00:30:49.900 --> 00:30:53.859 time to play if you're not, if you can afford that space, but 454 00:30:55.019 --> 00:31:00.980 other than that it should be purposeful and and maybe the agencies who could but 455 00:31:00.140 --> 00:31:07.369 don't choose to sort of create that space are are fearful that that's going to 456 00:31:07.450 --> 00:31:11.410 be, I don't know, lost margin or lost opportunity because it they don't 457 00:31:11.450 --> 00:31:15.609 really know the why behind it and maybe they need to spend some more time 458 00:31:15.730 --> 00:31:19.200 they can about that before are they can feel safe sort of frame those resources 459 00:31:19.359 --> 00:31:22.000 up. I love what you said about leading with honesty. I don't. 460 00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:29.279 I think agencies who don't are not trying to be dishonest. I think they 461 00:31:29.359 --> 00:31:33.950 are just I think those are conversations that are had with prospects, probably out 462 00:31:33.950 --> 00:31:37.509 of fear more than anything else. Frankly, it's at it and you're it's 463 00:31:37.549 --> 00:31:41.349 out of insecurity. It's also out of a mindset like the clients always right, 464 00:31:41.430 --> 00:31:45.910 like I don't believe that to be the case. I believe that the 465 00:31:45.029 --> 00:31:48.059 client often isn't right and that's why they're coming to you. And it's not 466 00:31:48.180 --> 00:31:51.940 like a right or wrong per se. If there really should be a partnership, 467 00:31:51.980 --> 00:31:53.980 but partnership taught us, you know, is in life. I don't 468 00:31:53.980 --> 00:31:59.700 care if the personal professional should be mutual, mutually beneficial and respectful. So, 469 00:32:00.339 --> 00:32:02.490 you know, I we really try to establish that expectation right our from 470 00:32:02.569 --> 00:32:07.529 because we're we're digging in deep, we're looking at a lot of their shortcomings 471 00:32:07.529 --> 00:32:09.009 and a lot of their weaknesses, like we really should trust each other out 472 00:32:09.049 --> 00:32:14.210 of the gate here, and so I kind of guess conversations out of the 473 00:32:14.250 --> 00:32:17.319 way pretty early on. Where again, I think there's this general vendor client 474 00:32:17.440 --> 00:32:23.000 relationship that most agencies kind of assume, and frankly, a lot of clients 475 00:32:23.039 --> 00:32:25.920 are to blame for this. I mean they really treat their vendors as such. 476 00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:30.150 But we really you know, try to look at it much differently. 477 00:32:30.190 --> 00:32:34.109 We try to take a different perspective and approach when we start the relationship and 478 00:32:34.670 --> 00:32:37.630 when we have their relationship account services or straordinarily important. I remembers a few 479 00:32:37.630 --> 00:32:43.950 years ago we had a project manager that we were doing client updates or account 480 00:32:43.950 --> 00:32:46.900 updates and and she kept saying like waiting on client to get back to us. 481 00:32:46.940 --> 00:32:51.220 You know, I haven't talked to client yet. I said what the 482 00:32:51.299 --> 00:32:53.220 clients name? The client has the name their human being. They're not just 483 00:32:53.339 --> 00:32:55.900 a client and if you look at them as client, they're going to look 484 00:32:55.900 --> 00:33:00.569 at you as vender. So we really work very, very, very much, 485 00:33:00.769 --> 00:33:04.609 very thoughtfully about again, our customer experience ar is your experience with clients. 486 00:33:04.730 --> 00:33:08.049 We're very thoughtful about the relationship that it's very genuine. We're not they're 487 00:33:08.130 --> 00:33:10.250 just to sell you new business. Were there to try to help you, 488 00:33:10.529 --> 00:33:14.839 and not even just businesswise. We have people that we work with that are 489 00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:16.920 looking to leave their companies are like, Hey, do you have any introductions 490 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:21.200 for me? Can you help me out? Or you know, they're celebrating 491 00:33:21.240 --> 00:33:23.359 the birth of their child or an anniversary or something. We send them something 492 00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:28.430 and mean we really try to be genuinely interested in who they are as human 493 00:33:28.470 --> 00:33:31.589 beings and that you know that that builds a trust level if they start to 494 00:33:31.670 --> 00:33:37.190 see your vulnerability and they become a little bit vulnerable, and then that's where 495 00:33:37.230 --> 00:33:40.109 you're really starting to see some serious kind of like impact and traction for the 496 00:33:40.190 --> 00:33:45.539 relationship. I love it. You alluded and a couple of different points during 497 00:33:45.579 --> 00:33:53.539 our conversation to experiences either collaborating with other agencies are referring opportunities to other agencies. 498 00:33:54.299 --> 00:33:59.210 I'm always interested to hear agency leaders take on this. What do you 499 00:33:59.250 --> 00:34:05.450 feel goes into a successful multi agency collaboration, because I know a lot of 500 00:34:05.490 --> 00:34:10.039 agencies these days are their teeming with either because the client is demanding it or 501 00:34:10.440 --> 00:34:16.239 because they need a specific skill set that they don't have internally, their teaming 502 00:34:16.320 --> 00:34:22.039 with other agencies and it goes better sometimes than other times. So what have 503 00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:29.150 you found makes for a successful agency at Agency collaboration when you are working on 504 00:34:29.389 --> 00:34:32.670 something in common to create a good business result for the client? Yeah, 505 00:34:32.670 --> 00:34:37.190 it. Listen, it's really hard. It is really really hard and it's 506 00:34:37.230 --> 00:34:40.860 case by case. So what's worked for us? Number One, stating very 507 00:34:42.099 --> 00:34:46.260 clear kind of guidelines I guess for each agency like look, you're going to 508 00:34:46.300 --> 00:34:50.699 do this, like so kind of behind the scenes, like even not with 509 00:34:50.780 --> 00:34:52.219 the client. They are like, look, we're going to kind of be 510 00:34:52.260 --> 00:34:53.650 a team here, even if you're not the same office. You're going to 511 00:34:53.730 --> 00:34:57.170 do this and kind of don't step on our toes. We're going to do 512 00:34:57.250 --> 00:35:00.050 this and we're not going to step on your toes and if there's a problem 513 00:35:00.090 --> 00:35:02.730 then we should contact each other and not go directly the client kind of complain. 514 00:35:04.210 --> 00:35:07.400 So really a respect amongst the agencies is to kind of WHO's going to 515 00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:09.880 take what role. That is a huge, huge piece of it. I 516 00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:14.800 think another piece is, well, it's very critical, I think, is 517 00:35:14.840 --> 00:35:16.480 that you've got to be aligned process wise. So this is one of the 518 00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:20.480 problems we have with one of the agencies that we've been partnered with because of 519 00:35:20.519 --> 00:35:23.510 the client. Like just very simply, they look at the process in like 520 00:35:23.590 --> 00:35:27.389 a waterfall approach, where it should be like Oh, we're going to do 521 00:35:27.510 --> 00:35:29.630 some design, we're going to do some music experience and then we do some 522 00:35:29.710 --> 00:35:32.630 design and then we're new development where we work in actual sprints. So we 523 00:35:32.789 --> 00:35:37.380 look at everything at the same exact time and you x actually plays a huge 524 00:35:37.380 --> 00:35:39.579 role in technology. So technology is to be in those meetings. So they'll 525 00:35:39.619 --> 00:35:44.219 have meetings with the client and will bring us into those meetings and they'll make 526 00:35:44.260 --> 00:35:45.940 all these considerations, they'll do all these designs, will give it to the 527 00:35:46.019 --> 00:35:49.500 give it to us to say, and we'll be like, you can't develop 528 00:35:49.579 --> 00:35:52.250 that. So like that. So that, I mean, there's a lack 529 00:35:52.289 --> 00:35:54.250 of respect. Number One, not bring this in, but it's also, 530 00:35:54.489 --> 00:35:58.130 I think, a lack of trust on their part because they don't want us 531 00:35:58.170 --> 00:36:00.690 to kind of tell them no on things. They don't want to be held 532 00:36:00.730 --> 00:36:02.889 back by, you know, technology or something along those lines. So I 533 00:36:04.010 --> 00:36:07.159 think process alignment is a really, really big deal. I think also, 534 00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:09.719 and I've told us the clients, I think you need to make one of 535 00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:14.000 them the lead. I don't think that you can just have the two of 536 00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:16.239 them figure it out, because you're going to constantly be jocking for some of 537 00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:20.989 these to have a louder voice, and it could be forty nine percent, 538 00:36:21.349 --> 00:36:23.710 but one of them has to be able to be determined by the client, 539 00:36:23.829 --> 00:36:28.590 like look, oh, three is leading this and there's other companies coming in 540 00:36:28.829 --> 00:36:31.670 and you're going to collaborate with them and they might take on Chunkle the work, 541 00:36:31.980 --> 00:36:35.780 but oh three still the lead here. I think that's a really big 542 00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:37.179 deal. You know, for us, I think one of the benefits is 543 00:36:37.219 --> 00:36:40.699 that we do again, the whole spectrum. So we do strategy, we 544 00:36:40.820 --> 00:36:45.780 do design, we do development. So if a design company brings us in 545 00:36:45.059 --> 00:36:49.650 and we just do the development work, we have designers in house, so 546 00:36:49.929 --> 00:36:52.210 we know what they need from us and we know how to communicate with the 547 00:36:52.250 --> 00:36:55.610 design side, or vice versa, if we're working with the development team but 548 00:36:55.650 --> 00:37:00.809 we're doing just the UX design, we know how to speak developer like we 549 00:37:00.210 --> 00:37:04.480 have them internally. So that's why we're a good partner and we're okay with 550 00:37:04.599 --> 00:37:07.079 partnering with them because, again, we don't need to do it all. 551 00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:09.639 We're okay with kind of playing in the same sand box. But I think 552 00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:14.239 that it's it's very, very, very challenging. It's very unique. It's 553 00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:16.789 really, really easy. And let's say it's a search engine optimization company. 554 00:37:16.829 --> 00:37:21.789 We don't do search antin optimization. So it's a really easy complementary piece that 555 00:37:21.909 --> 00:37:23.670 SEO companies don't do what we do. We don't do what they do. 556 00:37:24.110 --> 00:37:27.469 There's a lot of like a little bit of overlap, maybe from like an 557 00:37:27.510 --> 00:37:31.699 analytics perspective or some like strategy, but ultimately like we do two complementary things. 558 00:37:32.179 --> 00:37:37.139 So but it is really, really challenging to find the right agency relationships. 559 00:37:37.179 --> 00:37:39.380 The other problem, and I don't you know, I don't know about 560 00:37:39.380 --> 00:37:42.699 this in other parts of the country. I have talked to other owners other 561 00:37:42.780 --> 00:37:45.929 parts of the country, but Philadelphia in particular, I think it's the entire 562 00:37:46.010 --> 00:37:50.610 city, but particularly in the agency space. A lot of chips on people's 563 00:37:50.610 --> 00:37:53.690 shoulders. You know, it's that it's that rocky mentality. We ever had 564 00:37:53.730 --> 00:37:59.440 this undergo kind of mentality and they do not like playing the sandbox with other 565 00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:04.000 people and I don't know why. Fact, and this is also my background, 566 00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:05.639 not being an agencies, I was like, well, I doesn't make 567 00:38:05.639 --> 00:38:07.639 any sense to me. We actually, for five years running, have done 568 00:38:07.679 --> 00:38:12.800 this thing called agency field day and it's basically just a half a day that 569 00:38:12.869 --> 00:38:15.550 we go out, we play a game to do like kickball and make do 570 00:38:15.670 --> 00:38:17.710 like tuggle war and like you corn hole, and we have some drinks and 571 00:38:17.750 --> 00:38:23.110 snacks. And I very specifically started with like looking at some of our direct 572 00:38:23.510 --> 00:38:29.219 agency competitors and invited them to agency Field Day. So we do it now 573 00:38:29.300 --> 00:38:31.860 every year and it's like one letting breaking down the barriers, like hey, 574 00:38:31.940 --> 00:38:37.179 look, we can all, we can all get business here. Were going 575 00:38:37.219 --> 00:38:38.579 to help each other out, like we all have a lot in common here. 576 00:38:39.260 --> 00:38:44.769 So it trying to show the agency owners that it's okay to be friend 577 00:38:44.849 --> 00:38:47.130 or hang out with or maybe even share business. Listen, competitors. That 578 00:38:47.289 --> 00:38:51.010 also our teams, you know, like we have fifty people and a lot 579 00:38:51.050 --> 00:38:52.170 of them, you know, bring their people. So so it's a it's 580 00:38:52.170 --> 00:38:55.519 an event of maybe a hundred and fifty people are so they're all hanging out 581 00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:59.760 and getting to know one another. When I think they were kind of they 582 00:38:59.840 --> 00:39:01.239 came from other agencies. were its, like we were told to hate other 583 00:39:01.280 --> 00:39:04.800 agencies and to talk crap on them all the time. I was like, 584 00:39:04.880 --> 00:39:08.519 well, that's that's no good. Yeah, why? So I think that's 585 00:39:08.519 --> 00:39:10.909 the other prop part of it as well. Share. I think there's either 586 00:39:12.190 --> 00:39:15.190 there's a trip on the shoulders, maybe insecurity. You know, if you're 587 00:39:15.190 --> 00:39:17.070 getting in the design space, there's a little ego. You know, they 588 00:39:17.070 --> 00:39:21.070 don't theyn't want to. They think their idea is better than your idea. 589 00:39:21.190 --> 00:39:23.380 They're afraid to lose the client if you get involved, and I just think 590 00:39:23.420 --> 00:39:25.699 you got to put all that aside. If you're good at what you do, 591 00:39:27.539 --> 00:39:30.460 then you do you and you could should be able to stand up against 592 00:39:30.460 --> 00:39:34.019 anybody. If you if you're good at what you do, if you're authentic 593 00:39:34.139 --> 00:39:37.860 and honest and and you can deliver, then you know, you should be 594 00:39:37.860 --> 00:39:40.210 able to work with and a hopefully anyone, as long as they have the 595 00:39:40.289 --> 00:39:45.289 same mutual kind of mentality. Yeah, well, I was I always believe 596 00:39:45.530 --> 00:39:49.130 that you you might lose once in a while, but you certainly win more 597 00:39:49.170 --> 00:39:52.719 than you lose overall when you have an abundance mentality and it just feels good, 598 00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:57.400 you know, helping other people out. It feels good when you're sharing 599 00:39:57.440 --> 00:40:00.960 responsibilities and you're working as a team and you're kind of like breaking down those 600 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:02.920 barriers. And Look, we don't sell ourselves that we do everything. I 601 00:40:04.039 --> 00:40:06.199 mean, we've never I don't believe in that model. First of all, 602 00:40:06.239 --> 00:40:09.349 I don't think there's any company out there that does everything well. So you 603 00:40:09.429 --> 00:40:13.949 know, I know that we're going to have to work with partner, whether 604 00:40:13.989 --> 00:40:16.630 it's a social partner and SEO partner may be a dead partner, whatever. 605 00:40:16.710 --> 00:40:21.500 That may be. So the work that we're doing is pretty large and scale. 606 00:40:21.539 --> 00:40:23.420 We got to work with internal teams, external teams. So, you 607 00:40:23.500 --> 00:40:25.940 know, I just don't think it's helpful in the long run. If you 608 00:40:27.019 --> 00:40:30.179 really want to scale, it's inevitable you're going to work with these other teams. 609 00:40:30.219 --> 00:40:32.059 So, you know, start to embrace it. Yeah, I agree, 610 00:40:32.460 --> 00:40:36.489 I totally agree, and you know it is it's it is just the 611 00:40:36.530 --> 00:40:39.289 way of the world now. It's agency life, and so I think, 612 00:40:40.610 --> 00:40:44.289 I think most of the usteners out there and have to figure out a way 613 00:40:44.889 --> 00:40:49.010 to make the collaborations successful, because many times it's not going to be your 614 00:40:49.010 --> 00:40:52.480 choice anyway whether or not you have to be at the table with some of 615 00:40:52.519 --> 00:40:55.039 your peers and competitors. So we've got to figure out a way to make 616 00:40:55.079 --> 00:41:00.760 it work for everybody and keep the client happy at the same time. Well, 617 00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:05.309 this has been such an interesting conversation. I really appreciate you sharing your 618 00:41:05.389 --> 00:41:12.269 perspective on innovation, on agency building, and I definitely think that the agency 619 00:41:12.309 --> 00:41:16.389 leaders listening here will have a lot of great lessons taken away from your experience. 620 00:41:17.190 --> 00:41:20.940 But if they want to learn more about you and about thousand and three, 621 00:41:21.099 --> 00:41:23.739 where are the best places for them to get more information. Yeah, 622 00:41:23.739 --> 00:41:28.619 I mean obviously our site, othree world, which is the letter oh which 623 00:41:28.659 --> 00:41:31.739 a lot of people don't recognize. It actually stands for ozone, but Othree 624 00:41:31.820 --> 00:41:37.889 WorldCom is one place certainly always get an email me directly, Keith at Othree 625 00:41:37.929 --> 00:41:43.889 WorldCom. Always love to talk to other owners give advice here. Advice honestly, 626 00:41:44.050 --> 00:41:47.079 I mean I continually learned from a lot of other owners, whether in 627 00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:51.679 our industry, not in our industry, small, large, excter. So 628 00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:57.199 that's probably the best places to reach out. So well, key, scandal, 629 00:41:57.559 --> 00:42:00.800 all three world. I really appreciate you spending time with me on the 630 00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:04.389 podcast today. Thanks so much for joining us, Jaron. Thank you so 631 00:42:04.550 --> 00:42:07.110 much. As a real pleasure talking to a lawyer and it be something positive 632 00:42:07.110 --> 00:42:13.750 and not negative. We really hope you enjoyed this episode in the Hashtag Agency 633 00:42:13.789 --> 00:42:17.980 series from the innovative agency. To hear more episodes along these lines, check 634 00:42:17.980 --> 00:42:23.260 out the innovative agency in Apple Podcast, your favorite podcast player or the links 635 00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:27.420 right in the show notes for this episode. As always, thank you so 636 00:42:27.539 --> 00:42:34.090 much for listening. Gary v says it all the time and we agree. 637 00:42:34.889 --> 00:42:39.170 Every company should think of themselves as a media company first, then whatever it 638 00:42:39.289 --> 00:42:43.690 is they actually do. If you know this is true, but your team 639 00:42:43.690 --> 00:42:46.679 is already maxed out and you can't produce any more content in house, we 640 00:42:46.800 --> 00:42:51.880 can help. We produced podcast for some of the most innovative bb brands in 641 00:42:51.960 --> 00:42:54.519 the world, and we also help them turn the content from the podcast into 642 00:42:54.559 --> 00:42:59.949 blog posts, micro videos and slide decks that work really well on Linkedin. 643 00:43:00.429 --> 00:43:05.230 If you want to learn more, go to sweetish Mediacom launch or email logan 644 00:43:05.349 --> 00:43:06.710 at sweetish Mediacom