Transcript
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Hey everyone, logan with sweet fish
here. As you may already know,
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we've had the HASHTAG agency series running
for a while now. Here on B
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Tob Growth. Over the next several
weeks you'll be able to listen in to
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select episodes of the Innovative Agency,
hosted by Sharon Tork as. She leads
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conversations with agency leaders about how their
teams are staying on the cutting edge of
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marketing trends, how they're adapting their
businesses to meet new challenges and a whole
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lot more. All right, let's
get into the episode. Welcome everybody,
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share and TORC, and I'm really
happy to be back with you all today
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on another episode of the Innovative Agency. We are going to talk today about
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a topic that is sometimes threaded through
some of the interviews that I have with
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the guests on the show, about
business models and the agency world and how
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to build the one that makes sense
for you and how to build the one
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that makes you attractive to your clients. And I think there's a lot of
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head scratching about this, based on
the conversations that I have with either folks
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on the show or agency clients that
we work with in my law firm,
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and so I am so excited to
have someone here today to talk in particular
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about the issue of performance, bace, compensation, performance space marketing, because
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I think it's something we here thrown
around, I'll quite a bit, and
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I'm not sure we always have the
same understanding of what it means and how
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we might be able to implement it
in the agency world. So, Robert
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Lazer and so happy to have you
on the show today. Thank you for
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joining us. Thanks, Sharonough glad
we made it happen. I know it's
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been taking some work and yeah,
yeah, it's just everybody else knows,
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this is an interview of probably took
a since most schedule. So we hope
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that. I hope it's worth the
way. Yeah, I know the days
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finally here. I'm excited. So
tell us a little bit about your origin
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story as an entrepreneur. How did
you come to found alceleration partners and maybe
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first would you do before that and
what got you interested in founding the agency?
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Yeah, I sort of a reluctant
entrepreneur. I I think in looking
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back, I was always an entrepreneur
since I was a kid. I had
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classic tendencies in school and was interested
in creative stuff and not following rules.
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But I was actually I was a
firstborn. I was also very like risk
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converse, and I think those two
prevailing wins kind of confused me for a
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lot of my life, and it
wasn't until I finally decided that, like
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you know, that I just didn't
want to work for anyone else anymore and
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that it was it was more of
a relief to work for myself that I
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sort of plunged in, took that
risk and I've been I've been doing that
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ever since. But I worked in
out of school. I worked in strategy
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consulting as the venture capital and then
I took an operating role. I was
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always really interested in in sort of
fast growing businesses, how they grew,
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why they grew and came through ze
how important customer acquisition was to a consumer
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oriented business. is almost some cases
doesn't matter who has the best product or
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service. It's who has the best
model of getting a customer in a sustainable
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way that that tends to went out
in the long run. There are a
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lot of great products and services that
none of us know about and therefore,
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you know, don't don't ultimately end
up being that that successful and so that
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led me to start acceleration partners and
and sort of let us down a journey
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to really focus on where we are
today, which I think is really the
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the best and now increasingly the most
popular form of customer acquisition, and that
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is sort of affiliate or partner based
marketing. We like to call our version
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of it performance partnerships, but it
is, you know, a lining with
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people and building almost a business development
relationship to to send customers to you and
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pay on a performance basis. And
why I think it's the best form of
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marketing is because you pay for your
marketing after you get your customer. And
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you know who wouldn't like that,
right? You know, a lot of
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a lot of agency owners would not
their heads up and down affirmative way when
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it when you tell them that developing
a way to be compensated that aligns your
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interest says the agency, at the
Marketing Agency, with your brand client,
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is a win win for everybody.
We all get that right. But when
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you take that next step and take
the leap from believing that to how are
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you actually going to build a program
or campaign or whatever the terminology you want
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to use is that's going to enable
you to successfully predict that you're going to
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be able to earn revenue for the
client and therefore compensation for yourself. I
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think that's for a lot of agency
owners get fearful or get uncertain about measuring
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and predictability and scalability. So what
made you confident that you could build a
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model when you started acceleration partners that
would be performance based but also predictively profitable
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for for you as the owner?
Yeah, I was actually going to say
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I sort of disagree that it.
Maybe a lot of agency owners are not
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in their heads because the agency model
for decade or decades or as a move
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to digital, was just to get
paid for a volume. Right. I
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mean you could be a twenty four
yeeld me to buyer four years ago,
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put through a million dollar programmatic ad
with tons of kickbacks and didn't work at
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all and you make a lot of
money. So I actually think the performance
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model goes against a lot of the
sort of the digital the agency concept and
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and where people make a lot of
money on just the throughput or the spend.
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So so we were fortunate and that
it's we kind of went into an
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industry where the outcomes are clear.
You know, the folks that were working
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with tend to be, you know, large digital brands, either either native,
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you know, to digital, like
cast bur and stuff like that,
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who started that way, or folks
like Aldidist who've come into that space where
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what we're working on is driving either
leads their acquisition to their online business,
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and so the outcomes are really clear. So we had that endpoint and then
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we're able to say, look,
we believe we can drive more of those
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outcomes and we're willing to, you
know, Hook our train up to that
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definition of success. So it's not
easy in every model right. It's hard
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if you're running billboards. I mean
there is some stuff that is just not
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measurable and and actually think that measurability
over measurability makes people not willing to take
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risk and be creative. But we
had a little bit of a leg up
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there and that are model sort of
very, very like aligned to that,
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naturally. So I'm just more of
an advocate for for for the model than
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maybe suggesting that everyone could shift what
they do, because they do have to
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have that measurement, they do have
to be able to, you know,
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say, you know, here is
the resulting action from from the input and
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in order to in order to be
sort of aligned their competition. It that
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way right. Well, and you
know, I had a really, really
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brief conversation before they interview today about
agencies and partnering, and let's Talk a
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little bit about that, because what
you just said, I think, is
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so true, in that not every
discipline that a brand might engage in agency
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for is measurable in the same way
and some of them are, yeah,
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extremely hard or all some possible to
measure and any quantifiable way. So how
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do you work? How do you
team with other agencies and that have other
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specialties and sort of bringing a diverse
set of talent and ideas to the client
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to help them achieve their goals?
Because I know you're very plain about the
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fact that that your agency doesn't do
everything and and I'm a big proponent of
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the fact that no agency should try
to do everything. So how do you
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put it all together successfully? Yeah, so we're sort of the new school
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and I have a lot of friends
and peers in these other agencies where I
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don't have the acronomy up, but
we're just like it's were comfortable in our
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own skin, which is here's what
we do. Here's a world class at
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if you need something else, we
haven't a partner agency that we happen to
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bring in and refer you to like, you know, rather than, you
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know, the sort of parody videos
you can imagine on like like like we
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do everything. And one of my
litmus tests when I look at whether firms
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doing well or best in classes,
like I go on their website, I
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click on their service areas, then
I click on their team page and I'm
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like today we're service areas than they
have team members. Because, yeah,
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you know, to me a capability, a sustainable capability, is five or
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ten people doing the same thing.
It's not an a half person doing one
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thing. And maybe it's endemic to
being a marketing agency, but there's just
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it is just this reluctance to say
no, we don't do that, we're
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not good at that. We do
everything, and I think clients see through
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this and I think you know the
if you look at there's a ton of
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Ma right now in the marketplace and
consolidation going on and the people that are
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getting paid the best multiples are world
class specialist and what they do. They're
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not sort of average generalist who who
aren't good at everything. So I and
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the biggest change in our business was
when we started focusing and got rid of
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our ancillary businesses at about five million
in revenue and and in our business our
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growth rate doubled within six months.
I didn't realize how much of a drag
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there was on our business from doing
all these different things, from a marketing
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and recruiting and sales and all these
things. That I advice, I've given
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other business owners is like get to
ten million dollars in revenue doing one thing
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really well, be the specialist and
that then if you want to diversify,
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maybe you merge with it, you
buy another practice or you have that leverage
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and you say we're grade at paid
search or graded social lets merge. But
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I haven't seen anyone like build a
really great, fast growing firm just just
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being a like total generalist early on
and and trying to be everything that everyone
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hmm. I agree with you.
I'm obviously we're obviously huge believers in,
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you know, wealth and niches and
my firm and I I've seen a lot
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of success with clients of ours who
choose to do the same, whether it's
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a vertical focus or might be a
horizontal focus and a particular fun or something.
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So I'm a strong believer. How
do you set how do you work
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best with a team of, I
guess, all you specialists, Lucy specialist
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agencies, so that you are coexisting
peacefully and have clear ideas of WHO's doing
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what without any of this integration stuff
getting in the way and sewing some of
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you down. Yeah, so if
it's an agency that does it's funny.
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There are a lot of agencies that
do cross digital bit. Very few people
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know how to do affiliate marketing,
do to scale. Most of them are
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selling it and not knowing how to
deliver it and sort of faking it.
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So we'll say, look, you
guys, it doesn't work as a white
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label because we're talking about relationships,
not like you know, AD campaigns and
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stuff. But it will report to
you like if you're being paid to do
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this integrated project management. We think
that if you really have a fortune,
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five hundred company you're managing multiple channels
for them, you should not tell them
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you do something that you don't do, that represents that puts the rest of
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your business at risk if they find
out that you've been sort of faking one
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capacity. So why don't you tell
them you've partnered with a world class,
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like the best player in this industry
and that you know you you will provide
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the integration. The product management will
work closely with you and report up into
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you and you can report everything to
their team. Just don't pretend that you
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did the work. And I think
again, these newer agencies get this and
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they're more comfortable with this. Or
they say, look, these are different
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things. So well, integrate,
will work with the same person, will
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share information, but these are separate
projects. We should, you know,
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sign different, different contracts. Like
I said, this myth of like the
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well, they want one vendor and
one you know check. Well, look,
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come on, you can write multiple
checks like that's not that complicated.
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And on the flip side, sometimes
when they work with these large companies,
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you know, there's this belief that
they are tightly integrated in between and the
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teams aren't. So you kind of
have multiple different people anyway. I mean
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the fastest growing, I think,
role at these low integrated marketing agencies is
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kind of the integrated project manager who
can sit across the accounts. The problem
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is all these disciplines are really specialized, right and and just like you don't
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like. We worked with a branding
firm and no one wants to be sold
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by the thirty something your old partner
and then have the twenty two year old
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associate on account who doesn't know anything. You can have a project manager who's
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a good project manager, but if
they're talking about PPC and the client has
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some deep questions, there touch like
they can't possibly know all the subject matter
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stuff around all these. So they're
they're coordinating, providing Triaj but if the
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clients really smart, they're dealing with
the person they want to deep dive,
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they don't have the requisite knowledge.
So in this world of more specialized services,
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I think the it's even less likely
that you'll be able to find someone
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that can kind of meet all your
needs. Even even at that fur right
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who's in charge of all these things, they can know enough to be dangerous,
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but if you getting into deep questions, they're going to need the specialist
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in that area anyway and get someone
else on the phone. So how do
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you? I think, and I
think it's on me for not having maybe
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done this or earlier in our conversation, but let's talk about specifically what affiliate
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marketing means and what sort of services, because I think a lot of the
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services that are accompanied by our encompassed
in affiliate marketing might be sold separately,
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if you will, by other agency
and called something different. So what are
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your core services to help a client
via affiliate marketing? Yeah, so it
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probably actually not sold Tepe. It's
a pretty standard thing, which is we
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would manage or launch or grow and
affiliate program which means being the primary responsibility
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for all their publishers, which could
be hundreds or thousands, the platform they're
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using, and and sort of provide
either, you know, sit instead of
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the in house team or beside the
inhouse team and provide the leverage that they
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need. So it's really it's really
ongoing affiliate program management, I think,
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is what it's called. It's managing
these programs and all and all the relationships
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that are within them, getting publishers
what they need, doing the reporting,
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looking at trends. There's a large
human component to it. So it's a
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very straightforward thing. There have to
why? I think firms either do it
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or they don't do it and if
they have one or two people doing it,
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get big risk. Like if I'm
a big brand, I don't want
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the same person like, for example, we have a group, you know,
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that does cross our programs, that
edits newsletters and and does, you
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know, the applications each program and
reviews them. It can be really mind
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numbing and tiring and I that's a
June your job that you would learn and
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train on and not want to do
for a lot for very long. If
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you have a two person affiliate management
team, they're like doing high level sales
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presentations, they're reviewing publishers, they're
editing newsletters, like one of these things
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is not really a core skill of
there. You know that the people developing
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high level strategiest that for our program
like we don't want them like responding to
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applications and and questions and stuff like
that. So that's where I really do
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I think. I think five or
ten people is who all do the same
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thing or or, you know,
have complementary skills, are when you could
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call it a practice. And we've
we've seen is that, you know,
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for a lot of firms offering the
service, quote unquote, they're taking it
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sending it out to other agencies.
There one or two people are stretched across
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twenty of these programs. They're having
the affiliate networks kind of do the work.
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They're just trying to not get caught
that that they don't really have capacity
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to do this and and there's a
lot of brand risk. Like we buy
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a lot of software for recruiting and
fraud management and all this stuff, which
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these types of practices do not have. HMM, okay, what is the
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mix of what's the common menu of
services? And I hasnitate to even use
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that term because I know it's got
to be so different from brand to brand.
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But if a brand is coming to
you for managing their affiliate program what
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are the primary components of the the
things that you do to help them do
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that successfully? Yes, I think
the the cycle of any program is,
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if they already have a program,
is that you are recruiting partners constantly,
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you're engaging partners and then you're managing
all the performance and seeing what's working and
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not working and building new campaigns and
constantly reaching out. So I philly program
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has hundreds or thousands of partners who
who are coming to you and have questions
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and have things that they want and
ideas they want to do and you need
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to you need to be able to
respond to them, but you also want
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to outreach and and find. What
grows a program is recruiting, and most
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programs don't have a consistent presence of
recruiting. It's kind of like if you
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had a sales team who only responded
to to in bound calls and didn't never,
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you know, reach out to anyone
they want to work with. So
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the course service is not it's pretty, it's pretty standard, but some programs
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they need audits. Some programs you're
launching from from scratch and some of your
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taking over and trying to expand and
grow and and clean up right well,
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and then you've got a lot of
very diverse types of affiliates that are with
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very our variating degrees of interested.
I guess I'll call it in and compliance
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right or giving you it's easy to
tell what a sale get made, but
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there's a lot of steps that go
I'm just thinking of, for example,
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influencers or review sites or custom publishers. These are the types, some of
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the types of energies you might engage
to help in an affiliate program and they've
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each got their own set of special
all compliance requirements that you've got a monitor.
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And so how do you manage,
and I guess this is the lawyer
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and me asking this. But how
do you manage making sure they're all informed
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of what their responsibilities are? And
I don't bore anyone by mean we have
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core processes around all these things,
right finance or you know, we did
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a lot of work with large ride
share companies. There's all kinds of things
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publishers can't say or promote. There's
just inside baseball, but there's there's compliance
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tools, there's technologies or stuff to
monitor what people are are doing. Like
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this is all part of the kind
of nuts and bolts that we have to
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build into a service that we offer
to enterprise brands. And it's when you're
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really good at something you figure out
all these things or not things to sort
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of figure out on the fly or
or or makeup make up as you go.
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No, I guess what I'm really
wondering and obviously I don't want to
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get in the weeds about it.
Yeah, but I'm really wondering, is
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you take on this role of educating
these affiliates, or do you give your
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brand the tools to do that?
I know we're when you manage a program
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you're kind of like why I would
describe it to people like my maybe my
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parents are. Let's pretend where you're
a knife manufacturer or utensil manufacturer, right,
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and you have all these stores.
Like we're kind of the distributor rep
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so, you know, we're the
ones out in the stores talking the stores,
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understanding the the owner and what they
need and what they have upcoming and
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and kind of handling those those relationships. So well, you know, it's
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the manufacturers product. You know,
we're handling a lot of those day to
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day need o. They need more
inventory, they need this, they need
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a new display. It's sort of
the digital equivalent of that. So yeah,
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I mean we're out there doing a
lot of that work. They don't
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have the the brand doesn't have the
people in House to do that. So
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so depending on it. You know, we're doing a lot of that work
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for them and certainly for clients in
certain industries. We have a whole compliance
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procedures that we that we execute for
them. What interested you specifically, and
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there are a lot of past you
could have taken even in performance driven marketing,
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but what interest you specifically in an
affiliate marketing to build a business around?
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Yeah, I like meally mutually beneficial
outcomes and just the channel made sense
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to me it was like hey,
you do well if your partner does well
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and and you're paying for outcomes.
Like who would like this? So I
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think it was the core tenants of
the channel. And when I came into
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the industry and I end up writing
my book about this, I realized a
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lot of people had sort of hijacked
it and gave it a bad name and
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I but I really believe, believe
that despite a lot of the little broad
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tactics that got associated with the word
affiliate, the fundamental premise of paying for
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outcomes would endure and would come back
and and people would see that that's a
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better that's a better way, and
we are. We're seeing that in full
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force in two thousand and twenty right. What's been what have been some biggest
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challenge is scaling the agency up so
quickly, because you've had some pretty yes
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or years of some pretty rapid growth
and have been ablest challenges for you,
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and I'm sure this won't be a
surprise, but but people, particularly since
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there isn't we sort of expended the
pool of experience, trained people pretty early
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and then at some point we as
we got bigger, there just weren't people.
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They had experience in one specific product
but not as a whole. So
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there is no certification in our industry. There is no kind of Google that
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trains people are said they're Google certified
or otherwise. So we went through the
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and we actually found a lot of
experience. People tapped out pretty quickly on
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their capacity because they had a lot
of experience. So we've had to find
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great people and train great people and
then hold onto them because, you know,
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we're at our size. We're also, you know, if you're looking
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for good affiliate manager for an inhouse
program like they're gonna they're going to reach
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out there just there is very little
training. It's hard to know who's good.
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We have had to build a model
of the right profile of person,
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the right skill set and build an
intensive training program to create our own sort
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of account managers. That that to
the standards that we want to have.
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Yeah, yeah, I'm I am. You're in a good company there and
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turn out with your peers intead and
this show are no one said software or
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stuff like that, but yeah,
I mean it's it is. Some of
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them are more inclined to say business
development than they are to say talent recruitment
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and retention. But more of them
say talent, recruit and and attention.
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So I we've been very fortunate on
the on the business development friend. So
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we've we decided years ago to sort
of what I heard someone referred to is
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barbel marketing. So we were going
to be light on sales, heavy on
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sort of thought leadership and marketing and
heavy on we do good work and client
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referrals. So we've been very fortunate
both to get a lot of referrals and,
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have you know, the only book
in the market, a lot of
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thought leadership pieces, a lot of
content. We have pretty good stream of
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people coming to us. But that
was a multi year investment and sort of
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a top of funnel thought leadership content
problem. So we've we struggled more on
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the supply side, I think,
than on the demand side. MMM well,
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and so I think this is a
great segue into something else that I
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wanted to talk with you about,
which is the whole question of capacity.
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And I think it fits nicely with
this whole conversation about the capacity of an
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agency to grow only being as strong
as the talent that you've got in the
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seats to do the work. But
you have a kind of a personal interest
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in the whole art and science of
personal capacity building, and you're you've written
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on this topic as well, and
so I how and why was this meaningful
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to you, at least enough so
so that you took the time out to
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start developing that leadership content around it? Yeah, well, we're when we
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were on this high growth journey,
I realize pretty early on that we talked
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to a lot of consultants, there
was a stat that they would sort of
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read to us which was every time
you double, you break half your people
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and half your systems. I think
that's probably pretty true of a services business
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and and but I think that's what
I means. You're kind of like having
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a replace after people every couple years, which was not what I wanted to
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do. And so what we started
to realize was to keep people on our
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growth curve, we were having more
luck investing in them holistically, like like
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really investing in the things that made
them higher performer performing human beings overall.
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Time Management, prioritization, understanding their
core values, you know, physical fitness,
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all these things. And what I
didn't realize at the time sort of
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what was a formula around what became
the framework around capacity building and so I
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think eighty percent of the people at
acceleration partners have have are have been promoted
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in their job or sort of have
grown up, you know, through the
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business into this role and they've kind
of broken that fifty percent rule and and
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I think it's because we chose to
really like invest in growing their capacity so
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that they could stay along for the
ride. Because if a business is growing
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thirty or forty percent a year,
you've got to grow thirty or four percent
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a year to just kind of keep
up with the demands of your job.
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That's a really hard thing that most
people can't do it. I'm most proud
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of, you know, having both
the high growth, which is all the
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recognition as the best place to work, because oftentimes high growth is just associated
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with, you know, chaos and
destroying people and Churn and burn, and
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that's not how we've gotten there.
I think we've we've invested in the people
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first, and then the people have
have helped us grow the business. So
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what have been your your what are
the sort of the key theories or what's
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the thesis that you've built as as
a thought leader yourself? Think what you've
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learned running such a fast growing business
and and I would imagine, having to
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experience a lot of entrepreneurial maturity on
your own to manage all this from the
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top down too. So what what
have been your learnings and and one of
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the messages that you decided you wanted
to share when you wrote your book?
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Yeah, so, so, first
and foremost, okay, I had to,
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you know, be leading that growth
curve because I never wanted to not
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qualify for my role and our company, and it happens to a lot of
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people either. That would be awkward. Well, you know, I actually
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think some people I wanted to be
the CEO. I want to leave the
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organization. Some people don't. They
have a passionate about marketing, their passion
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about the product. Their forced into
that role and they they look, this
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isn't the role I'm good at.
But for me to do that, you
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know, I felt like I needed
to qualify, and I'm every year I
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had to requalify five and and the
framework with which I serves as the the
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premise for elevate really like. I'm
a big fan of frameworks and I you
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know, took me a while to
realize what we were actually doing and put
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a wrapper around it, but it's
that there these four elements of building capacity,
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those spiritual, intellectual, physical and
emotional. So spiritual, understanding your
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core values and what you want and
where you're going, and that's true both
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for individuals and the organization like we, you know, we've laid out clear
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three year pictures of where we're going. We have real core values that we
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hire on and and make decision to
move away from and promote on, and
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they're talked about all the time and
they're part of processes. Intellectual is then,
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how do you plan and execute with
discipline and have accountability? And we
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encourage people to do those systems personally, but we've also done those, you
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know, professionally and we work with
consultants and we have that three year vision
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mapped out to twelve quarters of what
we need to do and we have software
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where everyone's to do is our public
and their red light and green light.
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We have built an accountability and all
those things to make sure sure we get
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their physicals, people taking care of
themselves. You know, we really promote
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physical wellness, sleep. We've done
a lot of things. We help people
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get coaches who wanted to run run
races and do stuff, and I anytime
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someone's pursuing something that like a goal
outside of work, we celebrate that rather
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than seeing that be like in conflict
with work. Like if you're training from
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Marathon, I'm going to make a
gain and you're running on the rather and
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being annoyed the you're not working,
like I know that someone doing that is
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just in more peak kind of physical
and mental shape and we support and and
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celebrate that. And then the emotional
pieces, how you relate to things that
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you don't control and other people sort
of building your resilience and your emotional capacity.
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So we were working a lot on
on vulnerability and feedback and making sure
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that we don't have bind spots and
that we sort of like we can all
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connect is as human beings and under
understand each other as human being. So
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they're really just principles that that I
think are important for personal development, but
402
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they mimic a lot of what we
do at an organizational level. Are Annual.
403
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We are virtual company, but we
bring the entire company from around the
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world together for four days a year, which is incredibly impactful and and cost
405
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more than offices would. So everyone
says you must say a lot of money
406
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and I say no, I really
don't say have a lot of money,
407
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but, but, and and to
that alignment before. So the theme of
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00:28:59.339 --> 00:29:02.859
our retreat is always one of our
core values. So it recycles through the
409
00:29:02.980 --> 00:29:06.819
three core values every year and last
year was really about brace relationships. So
410
00:29:06.940 --> 00:29:10.130
we decide to take a risk and
there's this program I had heard about called
411
00:29:10.170 --> 00:29:14.849
one last talk, which was run
by kind of world class consultant I work
412
00:29:14.890 --> 00:29:19.210
with on kind of your sharing your
truth and and we asked for volunteers of
413
00:29:19.210 --> 00:29:22.769
people who would and a one last
talk is something like if this was your
414
00:29:22.809 --> 00:29:25.519
last talk to give today before you
left the world tomorrow, like what do
415
00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:26.279
you have to say and what do
you have to share? And then it's
416
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:30.359
not like here are the three life
lessons, like it's more personal that,
417
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:34.240
like it really gets to you know
who you are and something sort of,
418
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:38.150
you know, pretty impactful in your
life and for people gave those talks,
419
00:29:38.269 --> 00:29:41.509
and I mean I don't think there
was a dry eye in the room and
420
00:29:41.549 --> 00:29:47.430
they were incredibly personal and passionate.
And then the level of sharing that went
421
00:29:47.549 --> 00:29:51.069
on among team members in the walls
that came down over the next few days
422
00:29:51.109 --> 00:29:53.420
about just seeing these people kind of, you know, out there in their
423
00:29:53.500 --> 00:29:57.420
full self at work was incredibly impactful. We could, we can see the
424
00:29:57.500 --> 00:30:02.180
imppact in you our across team dynamics, you know, in the days and
425
00:30:02.539 --> 00:30:07.730
weeks later. Yeah, well,
and I think that that's sort of that
426
00:30:07.970 --> 00:30:15.410
missing part of the chemistry that is
hard to replicate when you're talking about growing
427
00:30:15.569 --> 00:30:19.490
and retaining the right talent and and
any business, but I think especially in
428
00:30:19.529 --> 00:30:23.559
a creative driven business which, even
though you're a results oriented from a performance
429
00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:26.880
marketing firm, at the heart of
it, there's a lot of creativity involved
430
00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:33.359
in making sure that the suggestions and
strategies you recommended up working the way you
431
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:37.430
want them to. And so even
more so they're giving up. Giving people
432
00:30:37.430 --> 00:30:41.509
an opportunity to sort of share their
truths is pretty moving and that's something that
433
00:30:41.950 --> 00:30:48.390
I think a lot of business owners, agency owners, would think to take
434
00:30:48.549 --> 00:30:52.180
the time or write the bandwidth to
do. Yeah, when you start doing
435
00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:55.539
these things and you see the and
you see the impact, you know,
436
00:30:55.619 --> 00:31:00.900
I think that is the that is
where it makes you even, you know,
437
00:31:00.019 --> 00:31:04.329
more likely to want to do that
and to continue with that investment.
438
00:31:06.009 --> 00:31:10.289
Yeah, how many team members do
you have total the agency? We have
439
00:31:10.410 --> 00:31:15.250
almost two hundred we're getting close to
two hundred globally. Wow, and I've,
440
00:31:15.410 --> 00:31:18.640
you know, I've I know quite
a few virtual agencies. I don't
441
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:22.240
want know. I only know of
one that's as large as you are.
442
00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:30.000
And so it's how do you find
managing virtually a community that large versus you
443
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.029
worked in other businesses that are probably
been more brook and Watar based as what's
444
00:31:33.029 --> 00:31:37.710
been the biggest change for you there? Yeah, I mean we're you know,
445
00:31:37.869 --> 00:31:41.589
everything that we do is the same. Everyone's on the same playing field.
446
00:31:41.750 --> 00:31:45.349
So there's a lot of things that
were forced to do to be more
447
00:31:45.509 --> 00:31:48.420
conscious about how people are on boarding
and scripting out their first couple weeks.
448
00:31:48.460 --> 00:31:52.059
Most of our calls or video calls, so you're always seeing everyone. We
449
00:31:52.180 --> 00:31:56.660
actually get together a lot. People
could say it's a little like the navy
450
00:31:56.660 --> 00:31:59.740
seals, like we have one organization, one ethos, but you kind of
451
00:31:59.740 --> 00:32:01.890
work within your platoon and you spend
a lot of time with your platoon and
452
00:32:02.049 --> 00:32:07.130
that's you know, a lot of
a lot of your experience. So we
453
00:32:07.250 --> 00:32:10.089
don't like it's just funny. People
want me to ask me to speak a
454
00:32:10.130 --> 00:32:15.119
lot at virtual conferences and remote work
and and we built the culture about flexibility
455
00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:20.960
and freedom and I just don't I
don't even think about it like it's me.
456
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:24.359
It's not even that like I'm normal
or different, like and people will
457
00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:30.589
say that they at this company they
feel more nected then companies where they were
458
00:32:30.109 --> 00:32:34.349
in the office all the time and
reading the Dilbert stuff on the wall and
459
00:32:34.430 --> 00:32:38.589
having superficial conversations with people. So
it's interesting. Yeah, did you were
460
00:32:38.630 --> 00:32:44.779
you deliver about about building your build
your business virtually this time around? was
461
00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:47.740
at a choice that you made or
did it just evolve that way? Initially
462
00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:54.420
we were deliberate because we was a
very thin talent and we were needed to
463
00:32:54.700 --> 00:32:58.420
kind of get people wherever they were, and they were all across the US
464
00:32:58.650 --> 00:33:01.049
and then but eventually we kept saying
we'll all, we'll get off as it
465
00:33:01.089 --> 00:33:06.329
will get offices, and no one
really wanted offices. And even we expanded
466
00:33:06.369 --> 00:33:08.170
to London, they were like we
need offices. People here have offices and
467
00:33:08.210 --> 00:33:12.960
in the three or four years they're
like London's gone full in on like businesses.
468
00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:15.839
It's so expensive, there's so much
commuting, you know, telling them
469
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:21.279
you know, hey, you should
should work from home, don't come in
470
00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:27.000
so well, yeah, I mean
I certainly see I I see it in
471
00:33:27.589 --> 00:33:31.269
my community of peers who own law
firms, particularly in the coastal cities like
472
00:33:31.549 --> 00:33:37.670
Boston or San Francisco, where the
human cost of having to commute as long
473
00:33:37.670 --> 00:33:42.619
as you need to commute between,
yeah, where they can afford to live
474
00:33:42.900 --> 00:33:46.660
and where your offices are located,
plus the cost of the infrastructure cost or
475
00:33:46.660 --> 00:33:50.980
is just not worth it for a
business. And so, I mean you
476
00:33:51.099 --> 00:33:54.140
obviously built that way for different reasons, but I see so many brick and
477
00:33:54.220 --> 00:34:00.970
mortar service companies making the decision to
transition over to it for for lots of
478
00:34:01.049 --> 00:34:05.289
reasons, but culture is a big
one of them. Called Quality of life
479
00:34:05.329 --> 00:34:08.369
of the team is a big one. Well, so, yeah, so
480
00:34:08.809 --> 00:34:13.880
it's it's funny for us. It's
just part of our culture where outcomes base
481
00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:19.360
were flexible, were performance based.
But we really do it forces us to
482
00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.199
be much more intentional about everything we
do to make sure that we do it
483
00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:25.269
right. I mean my first job
to like I said, we understand that
484
00:34:25.349 --> 00:34:30.070
there are some disadvantages of this environment, particularly like when you start and not
485
00:34:30.309 --> 00:34:32.829
really able to learn by US mosis. And whenever I remember my first job,
486
00:34:32.869 --> 00:34:36.590
I showed up that day and they're
like, Oh, you're starting today,
487
00:34:36.630 --> 00:34:37.469
we didn't know you're starting this week. Oh, go, go,
488
00:34:38.300 --> 00:34:43.940
go, go, follow Sharon,
you know, around, around, and
489
00:34:45.420 --> 00:34:50.500
so what I what I you know. And for us, because of that,
490
00:34:50.579 --> 00:34:52.889
it's your first three weeks are scripted
out really carefully. So I actually
491
00:34:52.889 --> 00:34:58.409
think we have a good, world
class on boarding program because it forces us
492
00:34:58.530 --> 00:35:01.530
not to rely on, you know, something just happening and we have to,
493
00:35:02.210 --> 00:35:05.289
you know, make sure that that
we do that well. And so
494
00:35:05.409 --> 00:35:09.960
that's that is consistent with with a
lot of things that we have and a
495
00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:15.000
lot of programs that we have,
where I think they're I think they're stronger.
496
00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:17.679
We understand our weaknesses, of potential
weaknesses and being a remote and so
497
00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:22.829
we've made something very explicit that might
otherwise be implicit. Yeah, well,
498
00:35:22.869 --> 00:35:31.030
I mean you you're relying on people
to relate institutional knowledge just from their brains,
499
00:35:31.269 --> 00:35:36.619
when you're all and of same physical
space. Right, that peptation is
500
00:35:36.739 --> 00:35:42.179
just too large to just learn by
watching or are by whatever. Somebody can
501
00:35:42.860 --> 00:35:45.940
you know orally storytell you as they're
walking you through their day. When you
502
00:35:45.980 --> 00:35:50.969
don't have that, you take those
sort of excuses away or that safetying out
503
00:35:51.010 --> 00:35:53.849
a way. It forces you to
be really nailed down on your policies,
504
00:35:53.889 --> 00:35:58.849
your procedures, your system, so
that and anybody can be brought up to
505
00:35:58.889 --> 00:36:01.809
speed to implement them. Yeah,
quickly as a as you know. And
506
00:36:02.130 --> 00:36:06.440
and look, I think people want
connection, but since you're not the one
507
00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:09.039
person on a team that's remote,
it's not as isolating. So every call
508
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:13.480
is a video call. The teams
get together. There there is there's a
509
00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.599
lot of a lot more socialization.
We're not people don't want to commute,
510
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:20.670
but they don't. We have a
lot. Doesn't mean they won't don't want
511
00:36:20.670 --> 00:36:23.230
to get together. One of other
innovative things is that we focused on hub
512
00:36:23.309 --> 00:36:27.469
cities. So we actually don't hire
people anywhere because we think then that makes
513
00:36:27.469 --> 00:36:30.909
it hard to congregate. So we
hire people around core hub cities and that
514
00:36:30.989 --> 00:36:32.699
way we can have social events in
that city and do hiring in that city
515
00:36:32.820 --> 00:36:36.659
and getting people don't have to fight
the traffic every day. But if they
516
00:36:36.699 --> 00:36:39.059
want to get together there's, you
know, thirty people and then we rotate
517
00:36:39.260 --> 00:36:45.260
our our sort of annual event around
to those different different hub cities. All
518
00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:49.889
of that idea. So, yeah, you've got hubs and communities that they
519
00:36:49.969 --> 00:36:52.849
can sort of build their own cultures
and alignment with with what they're doing.
520
00:36:52.969 --> 00:36:57.690
So that's that's very cool. Well, I've really enjoyed learning a lot about
521
00:36:57.690 --> 00:37:01.599
and I think the agency leaders who
are listening well find it refreshing to hear
522
00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:07.760
your take on what performance driven marketing
really is and looks like because, like
523
00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:13.320
I said, I think a lot
of them you know, by either voluntarily
524
00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:17.510
or by nature of the way the
industry is has evolved, they know that
525
00:37:17.829 --> 00:37:22.110
the relationships they form with their clients
are going to be increasingly performance based,
526
00:37:22.190 --> 00:37:27.949
their compensation is going to be increasingly
performance space. But because they don't have
527
00:37:28.030 --> 00:37:31.619
a legacy of charging for their services
that way are delivering them that way,
528
00:37:31.659 --> 00:37:35.579
they're sort of confused about where to
start, and so I think this has
529
00:37:35.579 --> 00:37:39.139
been a good starting point for some
of them to think more creatively about that
530
00:37:39.500 --> 00:37:45.369
and maybe be less fearful about it
as well, and so I want to
531
00:37:45.409 --> 00:37:49.570
really thank you for sharing some of
your expertise and I really enjoyed the capacity
532
00:37:49.610 --> 00:37:53.210
building conversation too, because I think
it is it's so rare to hear an
533
00:37:53.289 --> 00:38:02.400
entrepreneur who actually is that thoughtful about
building that sort of culture for a business
534
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:06.960
that's the size that yours is.
You might see it an enterprise's where it's
535
00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:10.360
extremely hard to implement, but or
in really tiny businesses, but you've got
536
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:15.070
maybe what's considered a small business in
some circles but a very large one to
537
00:38:15.190 --> 00:38:20.789
some of the agencies. Are Listening
here and you've really given us some great
538
00:38:20.829 --> 00:38:24.590
ideas and examples of how to think
about taking care of the people who help
539
00:38:24.710 --> 00:38:29.539
us, server our clients every day. Yeah, and look, if that's
540
00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:32.460
not you don't do it like I
think the biggest thing I've learned about leadership
541
00:38:32.460 --> 00:38:36.539
journey is, like, just tell
people what you value and who you are
542
00:38:36.539 --> 00:38:39.860
authentically. If you're a hypercompetitive person
and you want to cut through competitive environment,
543
00:38:39.980 --> 00:38:43.969
there are plenty of people out there
like that. Just don't say we
544
00:38:44.090 --> 00:38:47.929
all work together and Kumbaya and it's
very refreshing to just, you know,
545
00:38:49.289 --> 00:38:52.849
be yourself and say who you want
to be and do that consistently. So
546
00:38:52.010 --> 00:38:54.530
this is something we decided we want
to do. We're consistent about it.
547
00:38:54.610 --> 00:38:59.159
It's not for everyone. Right along. Look, if I can tell you
548
00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:01.840
if you're someone maybe just in general
or because of circumstance in your life,
549
00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:06.239
that kind of just wants to the
Middle Lane like you, will not like
550
00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:08.199
working here. Like work. We're
all about investing you, in improving you,
551
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:10.909
but we have high expectations. We
move fast. It's changing like a
552
00:39:10.949 --> 00:39:14.590
lot of people don't like it,
but I don't think they say that.
553
00:39:14.710 --> 00:39:16.869
They'll say, I don't I picked
the wrong team, not like I was
554
00:39:16.909 --> 00:39:21.349
sold a bag of goods. Yeah, I don't. Don't. Don't say
555
00:39:21.349 --> 00:39:24.900
anything you don't believe in to recruit
people because you just it's going to come
556
00:39:24.940 --> 00:39:29.219
out eventually. And the amount of
people I do the cultural on boarding and
557
00:39:29.340 --> 00:39:32.219
they talked about all the core values
at their last company that they were recited
558
00:39:32.300 --> 00:39:36.099
the first day, that they never
heard it again. No one talked about
559
00:39:36.179 --> 00:39:39.929
like that's to really upsets people more
than not having anything at all. Yeah,
560
00:39:40.610 --> 00:39:49.929
it's so interesting when you talk to
particularly millennial or Z aged workers.
561
00:39:50.530 --> 00:39:53.679
They really are are so much more
in tune to that then probably most of
562
00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:58.440
us who founded companies were where we
were getting into the work world. They
563
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:01.920
truly will make a decision whether to
stay or whether to go based on how
564
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:07.389
well you execute that. So I
think the authenticity is a huge part of
565
00:40:07.429 --> 00:40:13.429
that. Yeah, and it's frankly
a lot easier. Yeah, yeah,
566
00:40:13.750 --> 00:40:16.269
living in alignment with what you have
and doing what you actually say is a
567
00:40:16.309 --> 00:40:22.940
lot easier, thanking a lot less
exhausting. I totally agree with that.
568
00:40:22.139 --> 00:40:24.940
That and I think I will let
you drop the MIC right there. That's
569
00:40:25.059 --> 00:40:30.059
excellent and well said. So what's
the best way for people to learn more
570
00:40:30.179 --> 00:40:36.090
about what acceleration partners does and about
your body of work around elevate, which
571
00:40:36.130 --> 00:40:39.650
is your capacity building book? Sure, where can they find you? Yeah,
572
00:40:39.730 --> 00:40:44.969
so if you're interested in learning more
about acceleration partners, it's probably easier
573
00:40:44.969 --> 00:40:47.849
to Google it, acceleration partners and
then find us. or It's acceleration PARTNERSCOM.
574
00:40:49.369 --> 00:40:53.199
As you can spell acceleration, you'll
see, you'll find it. And
575
00:40:54.199 --> 00:41:00.159
so outside of that, my the
Friday forward book podcast, everything is at
576
00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:06.550
Robert glazercom. That's Gla Zarcom,
and you can learn all about there and
577
00:41:06.630 --> 00:41:08.630
see writing an articles, a lot
of stuff that I do on culture.
578
00:41:08.630 --> 00:41:15.469
Yeah, and Bob sends out an
email on Fridays with a lot of a
579
00:41:15.550 --> 00:41:22.300
lot of this culturally based thought leadership. It's a lot of really mindset stuff,
580
00:41:22.500 --> 00:41:25.579
culture stuff. I really enjoy taking
a look at them on Friday's.
581
00:41:25.619 --> 00:41:29.659
I find them very inspiring, so
check into that as well and to getting
582
00:41:29.659 --> 00:41:32.289
on that mailing list. And I
really enjoy talking with you today. I
583
00:41:32.369 --> 00:41:36.969
so appreciate you taking time to come
on the PODCAST. Thank you very much
584
00:41:36.969 --> 00:41:42.610
for having me. We really hope
you enjoyed this episode in the Hashtag Agency
585
00:41:42.610 --> 00:41:46.800
series from the innovative agency. To
hear more episodes along these lines, check
586
00:41:46.840 --> 00:41:52.400
out the innovative agency in Apple podcast. You are favorite podcast player, or
587
00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.079
the links right in the show notes
for this episode. As always, thank
588
00:41:55.079 --> 00:42:01.789
you so much for listening. For
the longest time I was asking people to
589
00:42:01.909 --> 00:42:07.190
leave a review of BTB growth in
apple podcasts, but I realize that was
590
00:42:07.269 --> 00:42:12.230
kind of stupid because leaving a review
is way harder than just leaving a simple
591
00:42:12.230 --> 00:42:15.179
rating. So I'm changing my Qunabat. Instead of asking you to leave a
592
00:42:15.219 --> 00:42:19.099
review, I'm just going to ask
you to go to beb growth and apple
593
00:42:19.179 --> 00:42:23.219
podcasts, scroll down until you see
the ratings and reviews section and just tap
594
00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:28.219
the number of stars you want to
guess. No review necessary, super easy
595
00:42:28.500 --> 00:42:30.969
and I promise it will help us
out a ton. If you want to
596
00:42:31.050 --> 00:42:35.889
copy on my book content base networking
to shoot me a text after you leave
597
00:42:35.929 --> 00:42:38.210
the rating and I'll send one your
way. Text me at four hundred seven
598
00:42:38.530 --> 00:42:42.050
for and I know three hund and, three two eight