Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:09.269 Hey everyone, logan with sweet fish here. As you may already know, 2 00:00:09.470 --> 00:00:13.429 we've had the HASHTAG agency series running for a while now. Here on B 3 00:00:13.589 --> 00:00:17.469 Tob Growth. Over the next several weeks you'll be able to listen in to 4 00:00:17.629 --> 00:00:23.179 select episodes of the Innovative Agency, hosted by Sharon Tork as. She leads 5 00:00:23.260 --> 00:00:28.019 conversations with agency leaders about how their teams are staying on the cutting edge of 6 00:00:28.179 --> 00:00:33.020 marketing trends, how they're adapting their businesses to meet new challenges and a whole 7 00:00:33.020 --> 00:00:38.649 lot more. All right, let's get into the episode. Welcome everybody, 8 00:00:38.850 --> 00:00:41.969 share and TORC, and I'm really happy to be back with you all today 9 00:00:42.049 --> 00:00:47.210 on another episode of the Innovative Agency. We are going to talk today about 10 00:00:47.250 --> 00:00:53.039 a topic that is sometimes threaded through some of the interviews that I have with 11 00:00:53.200 --> 00:00:58.840 the guests on the show, about business models and the agency world and how 12 00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:03.159 to build the one that makes sense for you and how to build the one 13 00:01:03.240 --> 00:01:06.829 that makes you attractive to your clients. And I think there's a lot of 14 00:01:07.150 --> 00:01:11.469 head scratching about this, based on the conversations that I have with either folks 15 00:01:11.549 --> 00:01:15.829 on the show or agency clients that we work with in my law firm, 16 00:01:17.109 --> 00:01:21.859 and so I am so excited to have someone here today to talk in particular 17 00:01:21.939 --> 00:01:26.700 about the issue of performance, bace, compensation, performance space marketing, because 18 00:01:26.700 --> 00:01:30.579 I think it's something we here thrown around, I'll quite a bit, and 19 00:01:30.659 --> 00:01:34.650 I'm not sure we always have the same understanding of what it means and how 20 00:01:34.689 --> 00:01:38.530 we might be able to implement it in the agency world. So, Robert 21 00:01:38.609 --> 00:01:41.450 Lazer and so happy to have you on the show today. Thank you for 22 00:01:41.530 --> 00:01:44.730 joining us. Thanks, Sharonough glad we made it happen. I know it's 23 00:01:44.730 --> 00:01:49.719 been taking some work and yeah, yeah, it's just everybody else knows, 24 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:55.040 this is an interview of probably took a since most schedule. So we hope 25 00:01:55.040 --> 00:01:57.560 that. I hope it's worth the way. Yeah, I know the days 26 00:01:57.640 --> 00:02:00.000 finally here. I'm excited. So tell us a little bit about your origin 27 00:02:00.120 --> 00:02:05.670 story as an entrepreneur. How did you come to found alceleration partners and maybe 28 00:02:06.349 --> 00:02:08.750 first would you do before that and what got you interested in founding the agency? 29 00:02:08.789 --> 00:02:13.270 Yeah, I sort of a reluctant entrepreneur. I I think in looking 30 00:02:13.349 --> 00:02:15.740 back, I was always an entrepreneur since I was a kid. I had 31 00:02:15.939 --> 00:02:21.860 classic tendencies in school and was interested in creative stuff and not following rules. 32 00:02:22.340 --> 00:02:24.539 But I was actually I was a firstborn. I was also very like risk 33 00:02:24.580 --> 00:02:30.409 converse, and I think those two prevailing wins kind of confused me for a 34 00:02:30.490 --> 00:02:32.569 lot of my life, and it wasn't until I finally decided that, like 35 00:02:32.810 --> 00:02:36.849 you know, that I just didn't want to work for anyone else anymore and 36 00:02:36.930 --> 00:02:38.490 that it was it was more of a relief to work for myself that I 37 00:02:39.169 --> 00:02:43.050 sort of plunged in, took that risk and I've been I've been doing that 38 00:02:43.210 --> 00:02:46.520 ever since. But I worked in out of school. I worked in strategy 39 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:51.400 consulting as the venture capital and then I took an operating role. I was 40 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:55.000 always really interested in in sort of fast growing businesses, how they grew, 41 00:02:55.039 --> 00:03:00.750 why they grew and came through ze how important customer acquisition was to a consumer 42 00:03:00.789 --> 00:03:05.430 oriented business. is almost some cases doesn't matter who has the best product or 43 00:03:05.509 --> 00:03:08.830 service. It's who has the best model of getting a customer in a sustainable 44 00:03:08.870 --> 00:03:12.860 way that that tends to went out in the long run. There are a 45 00:03:12.900 --> 00:03:16.539 lot of great products and services that none of us know about and therefore, 46 00:03:17.900 --> 00:03:22.340 you know, don't don't ultimately end up being that that successful and so that 47 00:03:22.419 --> 00:03:24.819 led me to start acceleration partners and and sort of let us down a journey 48 00:03:24.860 --> 00:03:29.210 to really focus on where we are today, which I think is really the 49 00:03:29.530 --> 00:03:34.930 the best and now increasingly the most popular form of customer acquisition, and that 50 00:03:35.090 --> 00:03:38.969 is sort of affiliate or partner based marketing. We like to call our version 51 00:03:39.009 --> 00:03:43.520 of it performance partnerships, but it is, you know, a lining with 52 00:03:43.840 --> 00:03:50.159 people and building almost a business development relationship to to send customers to you and 53 00:03:50.719 --> 00:03:53.759 pay on a performance basis. And why I think it's the best form of 54 00:03:53.919 --> 00:03:58.069 marketing is because you pay for your marketing after you get your customer. And 55 00:03:58.629 --> 00:04:00.789 you know who wouldn't like that, right? You know, a lot of 56 00:04:01.030 --> 00:04:06.030 a lot of agency owners would not their heads up and down affirmative way when 57 00:04:06.189 --> 00:04:12.740 it when you tell them that developing a way to be compensated that aligns your 58 00:04:12.819 --> 00:04:15.740 interest says the agency, at the Marketing Agency, with your brand client, 59 00:04:16.300 --> 00:04:19.740 is a win win for everybody. We all get that right. But when 60 00:04:19.779 --> 00:04:26.089 you take that next step and take the leap from believing that to how are 61 00:04:26.209 --> 00:04:30.689 you actually going to build a program or campaign or whatever the terminology you want 62 00:04:30.730 --> 00:04:36.250 to use is that's going to enable you to successfully predict that you're going to 63 00:04:36.329 --> 00:04:41.720 be able to earn revenue for the client and therefore compensation for yourself. I 64 00:04:42.079 --> 00:04:47.160 think that's for a lot of agency owners get fearful or get uncertain about measuring 65 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:54.509 and predictability and scalability. So what made you confident that you could build a 66 00:04:54.790 --> 00:05:02.670 model when you started acceleration partners that would be performance based but also predictively profitable 67 00:05:03.029 --> 00:05:06.300 for for you as the owner? Yeah, I was actually going to say 68 00:05:06.300 --> 00:05:09.699 I sort of disagree that it. Maybe a lot of agency owners are not 69 00:05:09.819 --> 00:05:14.819 in their heads because the agency model for decade or decades or as a move 70 00:05:14.899 --> 00:05:16.339 to digital, was just to get paid for a volume. Right. I 71 00:05:16.459 --> 00:05:19.939 mean you could be a twenty four yeeld me to buyer four years ago, 72 00:05:20.180 --> 00:05:25.850 put through a million dollar programmatic ad with tons of kickbacks and didn't work at 73 00:05:25.850 --> 00:05:29.370 all and you make a lot of money. So I actually think the performance 74 00:05:29.410 --> 00:05:33.769 model goes against a lot of the sort of the digital the agency concept and 75 00:05:33.889 --> 00:05:38.920 and where people make a lot of money on just the throughput or the spend. 76 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:44.680 So so we were fortunate and that it's we kind of went into an 77 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:47.519 industry where the outcomes are clear. You know, the folks that were working 78 00:05:47.600 --> 00:05:51.350 with tend to be, you know, large digital brands, either either native, 79 00:05:51.670 --> 00:05:54.910 you know, to digital, like cast bur and stuff like that, 80 00:05:54.990 --> 00:05:59.709 who started that way, or folks like Aldidist who've come into that space where 81 00:06:00.149 --> 00:06:04.540 what we're working on is driving either leads their acquisition to their online business, 82 00:06:04.620 --> 00:06:09.620 and so the outcomes are really clear. So we had that endpoint and then 83 00:06:09.819 --> 00:06:12.620 we're able to say, look, we believe we can drive more of those 84 00:06:12.660 --> 00:06:15.259 outcomes and we're willing to, you know, Hook our train up to that 85 00:06:15.459 --> 00:06:21.050 definition of success. So it's not easy in every model right. It's hard 86 00:06:21.050 --> 00:06:25.129 if you're running billboards. I mean there is some stuff that is just not 87 00:06:25.689 --> 00:06:30.569 measurable and and actually think that measurability over measurability makes people not willing to take 88 00:06:30.569 --> 00:06:32.319 risk and be creative. But we had a little bit of a leg up 89 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:36.560 there and that are model sort of very, very like aligned to that, 90 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:42.600 naturally. So I'm just more of an advocate for for for the model than 91 00:06:42.680 --> 00:06:46.560 maybe suggesting that everyone could shift what they do, because they do have to 92 00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:48.430 have that measurement, they do have to be able to, you know, 93 00:06:48.509 --> 00:06:54.110 say, you know, here is the resulting action from from the input and 94 00:06:54.269 --> 00:06:58.389 in order to in order to be sort of aligned their competition. It that 95 00:06:58.470 --> 00:07:00.699 way right. Well, and you know, I had a really, really 96 00:07:00.819 --> 00:07:08.860 brief conversation before they interview today about agencies and partnering, and let's Talk a 97 00:07:08.899 --> 00:07:11.860 little bit about that, because what you just said, I think, is 98 00:07:11.939 --> 00:07:16.649 so true, in that not every discipline that a brand might engage in agency 99 00:07:17.290 --> 00:07:21.529 for is measurable in the same way and some of them are, yeah, 100 00:07:23.050 --> 00:07:27.410 extremely hard or all some possible to measure and any quantifiable way. So how 101 00:07:27.529 --> 00:07:32.920 do you work? How do you team with other agencies and that have other 102 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:40.360 specialties and sort of bringing a diverse set of talent and ideas to the client 103 00:07:40.519 --> 00:07:43.759 to help them achieve their goals? Because I know you're very plain about the 104 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:47.269 fact that that your agency doesn't do everything and and I'm a big proponent of 105 00:07:47.350 --> 00:07:50.629 the fact that no agency should try to do everything. So how do you 106 00:07:50.709 --> 00:07:55.550 put it all together successfully? Yeah, so we're sort of the new school 107 00:07:55.750 --> 00:07:59.060 and I have a lot of friends and peers in these other agencies where I 108 00:07:59.100 --> 00:08:01.019 don't have the acronomy up, but we're just like it's were comfortable in our 109 00:08:01.019 --> 00:08:05.300 own skin, which is here's what we do. Here's a world class at 110 00:08:05.740 --> 00:08:09.220 if you need something else, we haven't a partner agency that we happen to 111 00:08:09.300 --> 00:08:11.540 bring in and refer you to like, you know, rather than, you 112 00:08:11.660 --> 00:08:15.810 know, the sort of parody videos you can imagine on like like like we 113 00:08:15.970 --> 00:08:18.410 do everything. And one of my litmus tests when I look at whether firms 114 00:08:18.490 --> 00:08:22.329 doing well or best in classes, like I go on their website, I 115 00:08:22.529 --> 00:08:24.610 click on their service areas, then I click on their team page and I'm 116 00:08:24.610 --> 00:08:30.240 like today we're service areas than they have team members. Because, yeah, 117 00:08:30.360 --> 00:08:33.879 you know, to me a capability, a sustainable capability, is five or 118 00:08:33.960 --> 00:08:37.960 ten people doing the same thing. It's not an a half person doing one 119 00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:41.070 thing. And maybe it's endemic to being a marketing agency, but there's just 120 00:08:41.509 --> 00:08:45.750 it is just this reluctance to say no, we don't do that, we're 121 00:08:45.750 --> 00:08:48.750 not good at that. We do everything, and I think clients see through 122 00:08:48.830 --> 00:08:52.549 this and I think you know the if you look at there's a ton of 123 00:08:52.590 --> 00:08:56.860 Ma right now in the marketplace and consolidation going on and the people that are 124 00:08:56.860 --> 00:09:01.179 getting paid the best multiples are world class specialist and what they do. They're 125 00:09:01.220 --> 00:09:05.620 not sort of average generalist who who aren't good at everything. So I and 126 00:09:05.899 --> 00:09:09.419 the biggest change in our business was when we started focusing and got rid of 127 00:09:09.460 --> 00:09:13.250 our ancillary businesses at about five million in revenue and and in our business our 128 00:09:13.370 --> 00:09:18.289 growth rate doubled within six months. I didn't realize how much of a drag 129 00:09:18.450 --> 00:09:22.090 there was on our business from doing all these different things, from a marketing 130 00:09:22.250 --> 00:09:24.600 and recruiting and sales and all these things. That I advice, I've given 131 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:30.480 other business owners is like get to ten million dollars in revenue doing one thing 132 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:33.639 really well, be the specialist and that then if you want to diversify, 133 00:09:33.159 --> 00:09:37.360 maybe you merge with it, you buy another practice or you have that leverage 134 00:09:37.360 --> 00:09:39.309 and you say we're grade at paid search or graded social lets merge. But 135 00:09:39.750 --> 00:09:46.149 I haven't seen anyone like build a really great, fast growing firm just just 136 00:09:46.309 --> 00:09:50.269 being a like total generalist early on and and trying to be everything that everyone 137 00:09:50.909 --> 00:09:56.779 hmm. I agree with you. I'm obviously we're obviously huge believers in, 138 00:09:56.620 --> 00:10:01.179 you know, wealth and niches and my firm and I I've seen a lot 139 00:10:01.220 --> 00:10:05.539 of success with clients of ours who choose to do the same, whether it's 140 00:10:05.539 --> 00:10:09.570 a vertical focus or might be a horizontal focus and a particular fun or something. 141 00:10:09.210 --> 00:10:15.009 So I'm a strong believer. How do you set how do you work 142 00:10:15.090 --> 00:10:20.009 best with a team of, I guess, all you specialists, Lucy specialist 143 00:10:20.090 --> 00:10:26.519 agencies, so that you are coexisting peacefully and have clear ideas of WHO's doing 144 00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:31.159 what without any of this integration stuff getting in the way and sewing some of 145 00:10:31.240 --> 00:10:35.830 you down. Yeah, so if it's an agency that does it's funny. 146 00:10:35.830 --> 00:10:37.750 There are a lot of agencies that do cross digital bit. Very few people 147 00:10:37.830 --> 00:10:41.629 know how to do affiliate marketing, do to scale. Most of them are 148 00:10:41.389 --> 00:10:45.029 selling it and not knowing how to deliver it and sort of faking it. 149 00:10:45.149 --> 00:10:46.710 So we'll say, look, you guys, it doesn't work as a white 150 00:10:46.710 --> 00:10:50.860 label because we're talking about relationships, not like you know, AD campaigns and 151 00:10:50.899 --> 00:10:54.379 stuff. But it will report to you like if you're being paid to do 152 00:10:54.460 --> 00:10:58.059 this integrated project management. We think that if you really have a fortune, 153 00:10:58.100 --> 00:11:03.059 five hundred company you're managing multiple channels for them, you should not tell them 154 00:11:03.139 --> 00:11:09.049 you do something that you don't do, that represents that puts the rest of 155 00:11:09.090 --> 00:11:11.049 your business at risk if they find out that you've been sort of faking one 156 00:11:11.090 --> 00:11:15.529 capacity. So why don't you tell them you've partnered with a world class, 157 00:11:15.610 --> 00:11:18.960 like the best player in this industry and that you know you you will provide 158 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.600 the integration. The product management will work closely with you and report up into 159 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:26.080 you and you can report everything to their team. Just don't pretend that you 160 00:11:26.200 --> 00:11:30.240 did the work. And I think again, these newer agencies get this and 161 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:31.870 they're more comfortable with this. Or they say, look, these are different 162 00:11:31.870 --> 00:11:35.629 things. So well, integrate, will work with the same person, will 163 00:11:35.629 --> 00:11:37.990 share information, but these are separate projects. We should, you know, 164 00:11:39.269 --> 00:11:43.429 sign different, different contracts. Like I said, this myth of like the 165 00:11:45.149 --> 00:11:48.500 well, they want one vendor and one you know check. Well, look, 166 00:11:48.620 --> 00:11:50.460 come on, you can write multiple checks like that's not that complicated. 167 00:11:50.539 --> 00:11:54.940 And on the flip side, sometimes when they work with these large companies, 168 00:11:54.299 --> 00:11:58.019 you know, there's this belief that they are tightly integrated in between and the 169 00:11:58.100 --> 00:12:03.409 teams aren't. So you kind of have multiple different people anyway. I mean 170 00:12:03.490 --> 00:12:07.730 the fastest growing, I think, role at these low integrated marketing agencies is 171 00:12:07.850 --> 00:12:11.889 kind of the integrated project manager who can sit across the accounts. The problem 172 00:12:11.970 --> 00:12:18.000 is all these disciplines are really specialized, right and and just like you don't 173 00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:20.600 like. We worked with a branding firm and no one wants to be sold 174 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:24.879 by the thirty something your old partner and then have the twenty two year old 175 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.200 associate on account who doesn't know anything. You can have a project manager who's 176 00:12:28.200 --> 00:12:33.590 a good project manager, but if they're talking about PPC and the client has 177 00:12:33.669 --> 00:12:37.750 some deep questions, there touch like they can't possibly know all the subject matter 178 00:12:37.830 --> 00:12:41.509 stuff around all these. So they're they're coordinating, providing Triaj but if the 179 00:12:41.590 --> 00:12:43.230 clients really smart, they're dealing with the person they want to deep dive, 180 00:12:43.539 --> 00:12:48.820 they don't have the requisite knowledge. So in this world of more specialized services, 181 00:12:48.899 --> 00:12:54.500 I think the it's even less likely that you'll be able to find someone 182 00:12:54.620 --> 00:12:58.289 that can kind of meet all your needs. Even even at that fur right 183 00:12:58.769 --> 00:13:03.490 who's in charge of all these things, they can know enough to be dangerous, 184 00:13:03.210 --> 00:13:07.649 but if you getting into deep questions, they're going to need the specialist 185 00:13:07.730 --> 00:13:11.049 in that area anyway and get someone else on the phone. So how do 186 00:13:11.169 --> 00:13:16.600 you? I think, and I think it's on me for not having maybe 187 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:22.360 done this or earlier in our conversation, but let's talk about specifically what affiliate 188 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.320 marketing means and what sort of services, because I think a lot of the 189 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:31.710 services that are accompanied by our encompassed in affiliate marketing might be sold separately, 190 00:13:31.990 --> 00:13:35.830 if you will, by other agency and called something different. So what are 191 00:13:35.870 --> 00:13:41.820 your core services to help a client via affiliate marketing? Yeah, so it 192 00:13:41.899 --> 00:13:45.419 probably actually not sold Tepe. It's a pretty standard thing, which is we 193 00:13:45.500 --> 00:13:50.460 would manage or launch or grow and affiliate program which means being the primary responsibility 194 00:13:50.539 --> 00:13:54.539 for all their publishers, which could be hundreds or thousands, the platform they're 195 00:13:54.539 --> 00:14:00.769 using, and and sort of provide either, you know, sit instead of 196 00:14:01.370 --> 00:14:05.250 the in house team or beside the inhouse team and provide the leverage that they 197 00:14:05.289 --> 00:14:09.080 need. So it's really it's really ongoing affiliate program management, I think, 198 00:14:09.159 --> 00:14:13.360 is what it's called. It's managing these programs and all and all the relationships 199 00:14:13.399 --> 00:14:16.600 that are within them, getting publishers what they need, doing the reporting, 200 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:20.480 looking at trends. There's a large human component to it. So it's a 201 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:24.909 very straightforward thing. There have to why? I think firms either do it 202 00:14:24.950 --> 00:14:26.629 or they don't do it and if they have one or two people doing it, 203 00:14:28.549 --> 00:14:31.509 get big risk. Like if I'm a big brand, I don't want 204 00:14:31.509 --> 00:14:35.350 the same person like, for example, we have a group, you know, 205 00:14:35.549 --> 00:14:39.100 that does cross our programs, that edits newsletters and and does, you 206 00:14:39.179 --> 00:14:43.740 know, the applications each program and reviews them. It can be really mind 207 00:14:43.740 --> 00:14:46.820 numbing and tiring and I that's a June your job that you would learn and 208 00:14:46.940 --> 00:14:50.659 train on and not want to do for a lot for very long. If 209 00:14:50.700 --> 00:14:54.450 you have a two person affiliate management team, they're like doing high level sales 210 00:14:54.490 --> 00:14:58.049 presentations, they're reviewing publishers, they're editing newsletters, like one of these things 211 00:14:58.090 --> 00:15:03.929 is not really a core skill of there. You know that the people developing 212 00:15:03.970 --> 00:15:07.440 high level strategiest that for our program like we don't want them like responding to 213 00:15:07.519 --> 00:15:13.200 applications and and questions and stuff like that. So that's where I really do 214 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.399 I think. I think five or ten people is who all do the same 215 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:20.960 thing or or, you know, have complementary skills, are when you could 216 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:24.190 call it a practice. And we've we've seen is that, you know, 217 00:15:24.309 --> 00:15:28.470 for a lot of firms offering the service, quote unquote, they're taking it 218 00:15:28.750 --> 00:15:31.029 sending it out to other agencies. There one or two people are stretched across 219 00:15:31.029 --> 00:15:35.470 twenty of these programs. They're having the affiliate networks kind of do the work. 220 00:15:35.549 --> 00:15:39.659 They're just trying to not get caught that that they don't really have capacity 221 00:15:39.700 --> 00:15:41.500 to do this and and there's a lot of brand risk. Like we buy 222 00:15:41.539 --> 00:15:46.259 a lot of software for recruiting and fraud management and all this stuff, which 223 00:15:46.419 --> 00:15:52.490 these types of practices do not have. HMM, okay, what is the 224 00:15:52.649 --> 00:15:58.330 mix of what's the common menu of services? And I hasnitate to even use 225 00:15:58.370 --> 00:16:00.570 that term because I know it's got to be so different from brand to brand. 226 00:16:02.169 --> 00:16:07.240 But if a brand is coming to you for managing their affiliate program what 227 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:11.679 are the primary components of the the things that you do to help them do 228 00:16:11.799 --> 00:16:15.320 that successfully? Yes, I think the the cycle of any program is, 229 00:16:17.399 --> 00:16:22.549 if they already have a program, is that you are recruiting partners constantly, 230 00:16:22.029 --> 00:16:26.350 you're engaging partners and then you're managing all the performance and seeing what's working and 231 00:16:26.629 --> 00:16:32.669 not working and building new campaigns and constantly reaching out. So I philly program 232 00:16:32.750 --> 00:16:37.779 has hundreds or thousands of partners who who are coming to you and have questions 233 00:16:37.820 --> 00:16:40.139 and have things that they want and ideas they want to do and you need 234 00:16:40.179 --> 00:16:42.340 to you need to be able to respond to them, but you also want 235 00:16:42.340 --> 00:16:48.009 to outreach and and find. What grows a program is recruiting, and most 236 00:16:48.090 --> 00:16:51.570 programs don't have a consistent presence of recruiting. It's kind of like if you 237 00:16:51.610 --> 00:16:55.370 had a sales team who only responded to to in bound calls and didn't never, 238 00:16:55.730 --> 00:16:56.610 you know, reach out to anyone they want to work with. So 239 00:16:56.889 --> 00:17:00.799 the course service is not it's pretty, it's pretty standard, but some programs 240 00:17:00.840 --> 00:17:04.079 they need audits. Some programs you're launching from from scratch and some of your 241 00:17:04.119 --> 00:17:10.480 taking over and trying to expand and grow and and clean up right well, 242 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:15.390 and then you've got a lot of very diverse types of affiliates that are with 243 00:17:15.549 --> 00:17:22.029 very our variating degrees of interested. I guess I'll call it in and compliance 244 00:17:22.150 --> 00:17:25.990 right or giving you it's easy to tell what a sale get made, but 245 00:17:26.190 --> 00:17:30.259 there's a lot of steps that go I'm just thinking of, for example, 246 00:17:30.619 --> 00:17:36.500 influencers or review sites or custom publishers. These are the types, some of 247 00:17:36.539 --> 00:17:41.220 the types of energies you might engage to help in an affiliate program and they've 248 00:17:41.259 --> 00:17:45.369 each got their own set of special all compliance requirements that you've got a monitor. 249 00:17:45.569 --> 00:17:48.450 And so how do you manage, and I guess this is the lawyer 250 00:17:48.490 --> 00:17:52.369 and me asking this. But how do you manage making sure they're all informed 251 00:17:52.490 --> 00:17:57.799 of what their responsibilities are? And I don't bore anyone by mean we have 252 00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:03.319 core processes around all these things, right finance or you know, we did 253 00:18:03.359 --> 00:18:06.559 a lot of work with large ride share companies. There's all kinds of things 254 00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:10.920 publishers can't say or promote. There's just inside baseball, but there's there's compliance 255 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:14.430 tools, there's technologies or stuff to monitor what people are are doing. Like 256 00:18:14.589 --> 00:18:17.269 this is all part of the kind of nuts and bolts that we have to 257 00:18:17.390 --> 00:18:21.750 build into a service that we offer to enterprise brands. And it's when you're 258 00:18:21.789 --> 00:18:23.670 really good at something you figure out all these things or not things to sort 259 00:18:23.710 --> 00:18:27.980 of figure out on the fly or or or makeup make up as you go. 260 00:18:29.700 --> 00:18:32.140 No, I guess what I'm really wondering and obviously I don't want to 261 00:18:32.140 --> 00:18:33.259 get in the weeds about it. Yeah, but I'm really wondering, is 262 00:18:33.380 --> 00:18:37.019 you take on this role of educating these affiliates, or do you give your 263 00:18:37.059 --> 00:18:41.450 brand the tools to do that? I know we're when you manage a program 264 00:18:41.849 --> 00:18:45.450 you're kind of like why I would describe it to people like my maybe my 265 00:18:45.650 --> 00:18:52.210 parents are. Let's pretend where you're a knife manufacturer or utensil manufacturer, right, 266 00:18:52.289 --> 00:18:56.160 and you have all these stores. Like we're kind of the distributor rep 267 00:18:56.400 --> 00:18:59.640 so, you know, we're the ones out in the stores talking the stores, 268 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:02.640 understanding the the owner and what they need and what they have upcoming and 269 00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:06.839 and kind of handling those those relationships. So well, you know, it's 270 00:19:06.880 --> 00:19:11.190 the manufacturers product. You know, we're handling a lot of those day to 271 00:19:11.230 --> 00:19:12.710 day need o. They need more inventory, they need this, they need 272 00:19:12.789 --> 00:19:18.390 a new display. It's sort of the digital equivalent of that. So yeah, 273 00:19:18.390 --> 00:19:22.150 I mean we're out there doing a lot of that work. They don't 274 00:19:22.150 --> 00:19:26.099 have the the brand doesn't have the people in House to do that. So 275 00:19:26.380 --> 00:19:27.660 so depending on it. You know, we're doing a lot of that work 276 00:19:27.740 --> 00:19:32.819 for them and certainly for clients in certain industries. We have a whole compliance 277 00:19:33.059 --> 00:19:37.339 procedures that we that we execute for them. What interested you specifically, and 278 00:19:38.089 --> 00:19:44.049 there are a lot of past you could have taken even in performance driven marketing, 279 00:19:44.369 --> 00:19:49.170 but what interest you specifically in an affiliate marketing to build a business around? 280 00:19:49.170 --> 00:19:57.079 Yeah, I like meally mutually beneficial outcomes and just the channel made sense 281 00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:02.039 to me it was like hey, you do well if your partner does well 282 00:20:02.519 --> 00:20:07.390 and and you're paying for outcomes. Like who would like this? So I 283 00:20:07.670 --> 00:20:10.990 think it was the core tenants of the channel. And when I came into 284 00:20:11.029 --> 00:20:14.029 the industry and I end up writing my book about this, I realized a 285 00:20:14.069 --> 00:20:17.069 lot of people had sort of hijacked it and gave it a bad name and 286 00:20:17.390 --> 00:20:21.230 I but I really believe, believe that despite a lot of the little broad 287 00:20:21.309 --> 00:20:26.380 tactics that got associated with the word affiliate, the fundamental premise of paying for 288 00:20:26.460 --> 00:20:30.539 outcomes would endure and would come back and and people would see that that's a 289 00:20:30.619 --> 00:20:33.019 better that's a better way, and we are. We're seeing that in full 290 00:20:33.099 --> 00:20:40.490 force in two thousand and twenty right. What's been what have been some biggest 291 00:20:40.529 --> 00:20:45.210 challenge is scaling the agency up so quickly, because you've had some pretty yes 292 00:20:45.289 --> 00:20:48.450 or years of some pretty rapid growth and have been ablest challenges for you, 293 00:20:48.930 --> 00:20:55.119 and I'm sure this won't be a surprise, but but people, particularly since 294 00:20:55.240 --> 00:21:00.599 there isn't we sort of expended the pool of experience, trained people pretty early 295 00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.710 and then at some point we as we got bigger, there just weren't people. 296 00:21:03.869 --> 00:21:07.869 They had experience in one specific product but not as a whole. So 297 00:21:07.990 --> 00:21:11.990 there is no certification in our industry. There is no kind of Google that 298 00:21:12.109 --> 00:21:17.829 trains people are said they're Google certified or otherwise. So we went through the 299 00:21:18.269 --> 00:21:22.420 and we actually found a lot of experience. People tapped out pretty quickly on 300 00:21:22.460 --> 00:21:26.140 their capacity because they had a lot of experience. So we've had to find 301 00:21:26.259 --> 00:21:32.220 great people and train great people and then hold onto them because, you know, 302 00:21:32.299 --> 00:21:34.369 we're at our size. We're also, you know, if you're looking 303 00:21:34.410 --> 00:21:41.130 for good affiliate manager for an inhouse program like they're gonna they're going to reach 304 00:21:41.170 --> 00:21:45.210 out there just there is very little training. It's hard to know who's good. 305 00:21:45.329 --> 00:21:48.279 We have had to build a model of the right profile of person, 306 00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:53.200 the right skill set and build an intensive training program to create our own sort 307 00:21:53.240 --> 00:21:57.119 of account managers. That that to the standards that we want to have. 308 00:21:57.599 --> 00:22:03.910 Yeah, yeah, I'm I am. You're in a good company there and 309 00:22:03.029 --> 00:22:07.470 turn out with your peers intead and this show are no one said software or 310 00:22:07.670 --> 00:22:12.150 stuff like that, but yeah, I mean it's it is. Some of 311 00:22:12.230 --> 00:22:17.299 them are more inclined to say business development than they are to say talent recruitment 312 00:22:17.339 --> 00:22:21.660 and retention. But more of them say talent, recruit and and attention. 313 00:22:21.740 --> 00:22:26.660 So I we've been very fortunate on the on the business development friend. So 314 00:22:26.740 --> 00:22:30.369 we've we decided years ago to sort of what I heard someone referred to is 315 00:22:30.410 --> 00:22:33.329 barbel marketing. So we were going to be light on sales, heavy on 316 00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:38.529 sort of thought leadership and marketing and heavy on we do good work and client 317 00:22:38.609 --> 00:22:42.170 referrals. So we've been very fortunate both to get a lot of referrals and, 318 00:22:42.329 --> 00:22:45.480 have you know, the only book in the market, a lot of 319 00:22:45.559 --> 00:22:48.559 thought leadership pieces, a lot of content. We have pretty good stream of 320 00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:53.240 people coming to us. But that was a multi year investment and sort of 321 00:22:53.319 --> 00:22:59.269 a top of funnel thought leadership content problem. So we've we struggled more on 322 00:22:59.390 --> 00:23:03.029 the supply side, I think, than on the demand side. MMM well, 323 00:23:03.630 --> 00:23:06.509 and so I think this is a great segue into something else that I 324 00:23:06.589 --> 00:23:11.549 wanted to talk with you about, which is the whole question of capacity. 325 00:23:11.710 --> 00:23:15.819 And I think it fits nicely with this whole conversation about the capacity of an 326 00:23:15.819 --> 00:23:18.859 agency to grow only being as strong as the talent that you've got in the 327 00:23:18.940 --> 00:23:22.140 seats to do the work. But you have a kind of a personal interest 328 00:23:22.299 --> 00:23:29.970 in the whole art and science of personal capacity building, and you're you've written 329 00:23:30.009 --> 00:23:33.849 on this topic as well, and so I how and why was this meaningful 330 00:23:33.970 --> 00:23:37.329 to you, at least enough so so that you took the time out to 331 00:23:37.490 --> 00:23:41.759 start developing that leadership content around it? Yeah, well, we're when we 332 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:48.039 were on this high growth journey, I realize pretty early on that we talked 333 00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:51.680 to a lot of consultants, there was a stat that they would sort of 334 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.789 read to us which was every time you double, you break half your people 335 00:23:55.869 --> 00:24:00.869 and half your systems. I think that's probably pretty true of a services business 336 00:24:02.670 --> 00:24:04.750 and and but I think that's what I means. You're kind of like having 337 00:24:04.750 --> 00:24:11.059 a replace after people every couple years, which was not what I wanted to 338 00:24:11.660 --> 00:24:15.940 do. And so what we started to realize was to keep people on our 339 00:24:15.019 --> 00:24:21.059 growth curve, we were having more luck investing in them holistically, like like 340 00:24:21.259 --> 00:24:26.170 really investing in the things that made them higher performer performing human beings overall. 341 00:24:26.329 --> 00:24:33.289 Time Management, prioritization, understanding their core values, you know, physical fitness, 342 00:24:33.329 --> 00:24:36.809 all these things. And what I didn't realize at the time sort of 343 00:24:36.890 --> 00:24:41.880 what was a formula around what became the framework around capacity building and so I 344 00:24:41.920 --> 00:24:47.559 think eighty percent of the people at acceleration partners have have are have been promoted 345 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:49.079 in their job or sort of have grown up, you know, through the 346 00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:55.509 business into this role and they've kind of broken that fifty percent rule and and 347 00:24:56.029 --> 00:25:00.950 I think it's because we chose to really like invest in growing their capacity so 348 00:25:00.109 --> 00:25:03.349 that they could stay along for the ride. Because if a business is growing 349 00:25:03.349 --> 00:25:07.579 thirty or forty percent a year, you've got to grow thirty or four percent 350 00:25:07.619 --> 00:25:10.380 a year to just kind of keep up with the demands of your job. 351 00:25:10.700 --> 00:25:14.420 That's a really hard thing that most people can't do it. I'm most proud 352 00:25:14.500 --> 00:25:17.339 of, you know, having both the high growth, which is all the 353 00:25:17.420 --> 00:25:21.769 recognition as the best place to work, because oftentimes high growth is just associated 354 00:25:21.809 --> 00:25:25.410 with, you know, chaos and destroying people and Churn and burn, and 355 00:25:25.730 --> 00:25:27.970 that's not how we've gotten there. I think we've we've invested in the people 356 00:25:29.009 --> 00:25:32.410 first, and then the people have have helped us grow the business. So 357 00:25:32.609 --> 00:25:38.079 what have been your your what are the sort of the key theories or what's 358 00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:44.960 the thesis that you've built as as a thought leader yourself? Think what you've 359 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:48.400 learned running such a fast growing business and and I would imagine, having to 360 00:25:48.519 --> 00:25:55.589 experience a lot of entrepreneurial maturity on your own to manage all this from the 361 00:25:55.789 --> 00:25:59.230 top down too. So what what have been your learnings and and one of 362 00:25:59.269 --> 00:26:02.710 the messages that you decided you wanted to share when you wrote your book? 363 00:26:02.750 --> 00:26:06.099 Yeah, so, so, first and foremost, okay, I had to, 364 00:26:06.579 --> 00:26:10.740 you know, be leading that growth curve because I never wanted to not 365 00:26:10.900 --> 00:26:15.700 qualify for my role and our company, and it happens to a lot of 366 00:26:15.740 --> 00:26:18.009 people either. That would be awkward. Well, you know, I actually 367 00:26:18.089 --> 00:26:22.210 think some people I wanted to be the CEO. I want to leave the 368 00:26:22.210 --> 00:26:25.250 organization. Some people don't. They have a passionate about marketing, their passion 369 00:26:25.250 --> 00:26:27.130 about the product. Their forced into that role and they they look, this 370 00:26:27.210 --> 00:26:30.650 isn't the role I'm good at. But for me to do that, you 371 00:26:30.730 --> 00:26:33.559 know, I felt like I needed to qualify, and I'm every year I 372 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:37.279 had to requalify five and and the framework with which I serves as the the 373 00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:41.799 premise for elevate really like. I'm a big fan of frameworks and I you 374 00:26:41.839 --> 00:26:45.160 know, took me a while to realize what we were actually doing and put 375 00:26:45.160 --> 00:26:48.269 a wrapper around it, but it's that there these four elements of building capacity, 376 00:26:48.430 --> 00:26:52.990 those spiritual, intellectual, physical and emotional. So spiritual, understanding your 377 00:26:53.029 --> 00:26:56.630 core values and what you want and where you're going, and that's true both 378 00:26:56.670 --> 00:27:00.150 for individuals and the organization like we, you know, we've laid out clear 379 00:27:00.390 --> 00:27:03.900 three year pictures of where we're going. We have real core values that we 380 00:27:04.099 --> 00:27:07.900 hire on and and make decision to move away from and promote on, and 381 00:27:07.940 --> 00:27:11.819 they're talked about all the time and they're part of processes. Intellectual is then, 382 00:27:12.099 --> 00:27:17.250 how do you plan and execute with discipline and have accountability? And we 383 00:27:17.329 --> 00:27:21.250 encourage people to do those systems personally, but we've also done those, you 384 00:27:21.329 --> 00:27:25.609 know, professionally and we work with consultants and we have that three year vision 385 00:27:25.690 --> 00:27:29.369 mapped out to twelve quarters of what we need to do and we have software 386 00:27:29.369 --> 00:27:33.000 where everyone's to do is our public and their red light and green light. 387 00:27:33.039 --> 00:27:36.039 We have built an accountability and all those things to make sure sure we get 388 00:27:36.079 --> 00:27:40.000 their physicals, people taking care of themselves. You know, we really promote 389 00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:42.880 physical wellness, sleep. We've done a lot of things. We help people 390 00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:48.190 get coaches who wanted to run run races and do stuff, and I anytime 391 00:27:48.269 --> 00:27:52.670 someone's pursuing something that like a goal outside of work, we celebrate that rather 392 00:27:52.750 --> 00:27:55.869 than seeing that be like in conflict with work. Like if you're training from 393 00:27:55.950 --> 00:27:57.900 Marathon, I'm going to make a gain and you're running on the rather and 394 00:27:57.900 --> 00:28:02.339 being annoyed the you're not working, like I know that someone doing that is 395 00:28:02.420 --> 00:28:06.579 just in more peak kind of physical and mental shape and we support and and 396 00:28:06.900 --> 00:28:10.380 celebrate that. And then the emotional pieces, how you relate to things that 397 00:28:10.500 --> 00:28:15.809 you don't control and other people sort of building your resilience and your emotional capacity. 398 00:28:15.970 --> 00:28:19.569 So we were working a lot on on vulnerability and feedback and making sure 399 00:28:19.650 --> 00:28:23.650 that we don't have bind spots and that we sort of like we can all 400 00:28:23.730 --> 00:28:27.720 connect is as human beings and under understand each other as human being. So 401 00:28:29.240 --> 00:28:34.039 they're really just principles that that I think are important for personal development, but 402 00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:40.400 they mimic a lot of what we do at an organizational level. Are Annual. 403 00:28:40.680 --> 00:28:42.269 We are virtual company, but we bring the entire company from around the 404 00:28:42.309 --> 00:28:48.349 world together for four days a year, which is incredibly impactful and and cost 405 00:28:48.470 --> 00:28:52.430 more than offices would. So everyone says you must say a lot of money 406 00:28:52.829 --> 00:28:53.950 and I say no, I really don't say have a lot of money, 407 00:28:55.819 --> 00:28:59.299 but, but, and and to that alignment before. So the theme of 408 00:28:59.339 --> 00:29:02.859 our retreat is always one of our core values. So it recycles through the 409 00:29:02.980 --> 00:29:06.819 three core values every year and last year was really about brace relationships. So 410 00:29:06.940 --> 00:29:10.130 we decide to take a risk and there's this program I had heard about called 411 00:29:10.170 --> 00:29:14.849 one last talk, which was run by kind of world class consultant I work 412 00:29:14.890 --> 00:29:19.210 with on kind of your sharing your truth and and we asked for volunteers of 413 00:29:19.210 --> 00:29:22.769 people who would and a one last talk is something like if this was your 414 00:29:22.809 --> 00:29:25.519 last talk to give today before you left the world tomorrow, like what do 415 00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:26.279 you have to say and what do you have to share? And then it's 416 00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:30.359 not like here are the three life lessons, like it's more personal that, 417 00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:34.240 like it really gets to you know who you are and something sort of, 418 00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:38.150 you know, pretty impactful in your life and for people gave those talks, 419 00:29:38.269 --> 00:29:41.509 and I mean I don't think there was a dry eye in the room and 420 00:29:41.549 --> 00:29:47.430 they were incredibly personal and passionate. And then the level of sharing that went 421 00:29:47.549 --> 00:29:51.069 on among team members in the walls that came down over the next few days 422 00:29:51.109 --> 00:29:53.420 about just seeing these people kind of, you know, out there in their 423 00:29:53.500 --> 00:29:57.420 full self at work was incredibly impactful. We could, we can see the 424 00:29:57.500 --> 00:30:02.180 imppact in you our across team dynamics, you know, in the days and 425 00:30:02.539 --> 00:30:07.730 weeks later. Yeah, well, and I think that that's sort of that 426 00:30:07.970 --> 00:30:15.410 missing part of the chemistry that is hard to replicate when you're talking about growing 427 00:30:15.569 --> 00:30:19.490 and retaining the right talent and and any business, but I think especially in 428 00:30:19.529 --> 00:30:23.559 a creative driven business which, even though you're a results oriented from a performance 429 00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:26.880 marketing firm, at the heart of it, there's a lot of creativity involved 430 00:30:26.920 --> 00:30:33.359 in making sure that the suggestions and strategies you recommended up working the way you 431 00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:37.430 want them to. And so even more so they're giving up. Giving people 432 00:30:37.430 --> 00:30:41.509 an opportunity to sort of share their truths is pretty moving and that's something that 433 00:30:41.950 --> 00:30:48.390 I think a lot of business owners, agency owners, would think to take 434 00:30:48.549 --> 00:30:52.180 the time or write the bandwidth to do. Yeah, when you start doing 435 00:30:52.259 --> 00:30:55.539 these things and you see the and you see the impact, you know, 436 00:30:55.619 --> 00:31:00.900 I think that is the that is where it makes you even, you know, 437 00:31:00.019 --> 00:31:04.329 more likely to want to do that and to continue with that investment. 438 00:31:06.009 --> 00:31:10.289 Yeah, how many team members do you have total the agency? We have 439 00:31:10.410 --> 00:31:15.250 almost two hundred we're getting close to two hundred globally. Wow, and I've, 440 00:31:15.410 --> 00:31:18.640 you know, I've I know quite a few virtual agencies. I don't 441 00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:22.240 want know. I only know of one that's as large as you are. 442 00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:30.000 And so it's how do you find managing virtually a community that large versus you 443 00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:33.029 worked in other businesses that are probably been more brook and Watar based as what's 444 00:31:33.029 --> 00:31:37.710 been the biggest change for you there? Yeah, I mean we're you know, 445 00:31:37.869 --> 00:31:41.589 everything that we do is the same. Everyone's on the same playing field. 446 00:31:41.750 --> 00:31:45.349 So there's a lot of things that were forced to do to be more 447 00:31:45.509 --> 00:31:48.420 conscious about how people are on boarding and scripting out their first couple weeks. 448 00:31:48.460 --> 00:31:52.059 Most of our calls or video calls, so you're always seeing everyone. We 449 00:31:52.180 --> 00:31:56.660 actually get together a lot. People could say it's a little like the navy 450 00:31:56.660 --> 00:31:59.740 seals, like we have one organization, one ethos, but you kind of 451 00:31:59.740 --> 00:32:01.890 work within your platoon and you spend a lot of time with your platoon and 452 00:32:02.049 --> 00:32:07.130 that's you know, a lot of a lot of your experience. So we 453 00:32:07.250 --> 00:32:10.089 don't like it's just funny. People want me to ask me to speak a 454 00:32:10.130 --> 00:32:15.119 lot at virtual conferences and remote work and and we built the culture about flexibility 455 00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:20.960 and freedom and I just don't I don't even think about it like it's me. 456 00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:24.359 It's not even that like I'm normal or different, like and people will 457 00:32:24.440 --> 00:32:30.589 say that they at this company they feel more nected then companies where they were 458 00:32:30.109 --> 00:32:34.349 in the office all the time and reading the Dilbert stuff on the wall and 459 00:32:34.430 --> 00:32:38.589 having superficial conversations with people. So it's interesting. Yeah, did you were 460 00:32:38.630 --> 00:32:44.779 you deliver about about building your build your business virtually this time around? was 461 00:32:44.819 --> 00:32:47.740 at a choice that you made or did it just evolve that way? Initially 462 00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:54.420 we were deliberate because we was a very thin talent and we were needed to 463 00:32:54.700 --> 00:32:58.420 kind of get people wherever they were, and they were all across the US 464 00:32:58.650 --> 00:33:01.049 and then but eventually we kept saying we'll all, we'll get off as it 465 00:33:01.089 --> 00:33:06.329 will get offices, and no one really wanted offices. And even we expanded 466 00:33:06.369 --> 00:33:08.170 to London, they were like we need offices. People here have offices and 467 00:33:08.210 --> 00:33:12.960 in the three or four years they're like London's gone full in on like businesses. 468 00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:15.839 It's so expensive, there's so much commuting, you know, telling them 469 00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:21.279 you know, hey, you should should work from home, don't come in 470 00:33:21.519 --> 00:33:27.000 so well, yeah, I mean I certainly see I I see it in 471 00:33:27.589 --> 00:33:31.269 my community of peers who own law firms, particularly in the coastal cities like 472 00:33:31.549 --> 00:33:37.670 Boston or San Francisco, where the human cost of having to commute as long 473 00:33:37.670 --> 00:33:42.619 as you need to commute between, yeah, where they can afford to live 474 00:33:42.900 --> 00:33:46.660 and where your offices are located, plus the cost of the infrastructure cost or 475 00:33:46.660 --> 00:33:50.980 is just not worth it for a business. And so, I mean you 476 00:33:51.099 --> 00:33:54.140 obviously built that way for different reasons, but I see so many brick and 477 00:33:54.220 --> 00:34:00.970 mortar service companies making the decision to transition over to it for for lots of 478 00:34:01.049 --> 00:34:05.289 reasons, but culture is a big one of them. Called Quality of life 479 00:34:05.329 --> 00:34:08.369 of the team is a big one. Well, so, yeah, so 480 00:34:08.809 --> 00:34:13.880 it's it's funny for us. It's just part of our culture where outcomes base 481 00:34:14.039 --> 00:34:19.360 were flexible, were performance based. But we really do it forces us to 482 00:34:19.440 --> 00:34:22.199 be much more intentional about everything we do to make sure that we do it 483 00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:25.269 right. I mean my first job to like I said, we understand that 484 00:34:25.349 --> 00:34:30.070 there are some disadvantages of this environment, particularly like when you start and not 485 00:34:30.309 --> 00:34:32.829 really able to learn by US mosis. And whenever I remember my first job, 486 00:34:32.869 --> 00:34:36.590 I showed up that day and they're like, Oh, you're starting today, 487 00:34:36.630 --> 00:34:37.469 we didn't know you're starting this week. Oh, go, go, 488 00:34:38.300 --> 00:34:43.940 go, go, follow Sharon, you know, around, around, and 489 00:34:45.420 --> 00:34:50.500 so what I what I you know. And for us, because of that, 490 00:34:50.579 --> 00:34:52.889 it's your first three weeks are scripted out really carefully. So I actually 491 00:34:52.889 --> 00:34:58.409 think we have a good, world class on boarding program because it forces us 492 00:34:58.530 --> 00:35:01.530 not to rely on, you know, something just happening and we have to, 493 00:35:02.210 --> 00:35:05.289 you know, make sure that that we do that well. And so 494 00:35:05.409 --> 00:35:09.960 that's that is consistent with with a lot of things that we have and a 495 00:35:10.000 --> 00:35:15.000 lot of programs that we have, where I think they're I think they're stronger. 496 00:35:15.519 --> 00:35:17.679 We understand our weaknesses, of potential weaknesses and being a remote and so 497 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:22.829 we've made something very explicit that might otherwise be implicit. Yeah, well, 498 00:35:22.869 --> 00:35:31.030 I mean you you're relying on people to relate institutional knowledge just from their brains, 499 00:35:31.269 --> 00:35:36.619 when you're all and of same physical space. Right, that peptation is 500 00:35:36.739 --> 00:35:42.179 just too large to just learn by watching or are by whatever. Somebody can 501 00:35:42.860 --> 00:35:45.940 you know orally storytell you as they're walking you through their day. When you 502 00:35:45.980 --> 00:35:50.969 don't have that, you take those sort of excuses away or that safetying out 503 00:35:51.010 --> 00:35:53.849 a way. It forces you to be really nailed down on your policies, 504 00:35:53.889 --> 00:35:58.849 your procedures, your system, so that and anybody can be brought up to 505 00:35:58.889 --> 00:36:01.809 speed to implement them. Yeah, quickly as a as you know. And 506 00:36:02.130 --> 00:36:06.440 and look, I think people want connection, but since you're not the one 507 00:36:06.519 --> 00:36:09.039 person on a team that's remote, it's not as isolating. So every call 508 00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:13.480 is a video call. The teams get together. There there is there's a 509 00:36:13.559 --> 00:36:16.599 lot of a lot more socialization. We're not people don't want to commute, 510 00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:20.670 but they don't. We have a lot. Doesn't mean they won't don't want 511 00:36:20.670 --> 00:36:23.230 to get together. One of other innovative things is that we focused on hub 512 00:36:23.309 --> 00:36:27.469 cities. So we actually don't hire people anywhere because we think then that makes 513 00:36:27.469 --> 00:36:30.909 it hard to congregate. So we hire people around core hub cities and that 514 00:36:30.989 --> 00:36:32.699 way we can have social events in that city and do hiring in that city 515 00:36:32.820 --> 00:36:36.659 and getting people don't have to fight the traffic every day. But if they 516 00:36:36.699 --> 00:36:39.059 want to get together there's, you know, thirty people and then we rotate 517 00:36:39.260 --> 00:36:45.260 our our sort of annual event around to those different different hub cities. All 518 00:36:45.300 --> 00:36:49.889 of that idea. So, yeah, you've got hubs and communities that they 519 00:36:49.969 --> 00:36:52.849 can sort of build their own cultures and alignment with with what they're doing. 520 00:36:52.969 --> 00:36:57.690 So that's that's very cool. Well, I've really enjoyed learning a lot about 521 00:36:57.690 --> 00:37:01.599 and I think the agency leaders who are listening well find it refreshing to hear 522 00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:07.760 your take on what performance driven marketing really is and looks like because, like 523 00:37:07.800 --> 00:37:13.320 I said, I think a lot of them you know, by either voluntarily 524 00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:17.510 or by nature of the way the industry is has evolved, they know that 525 00:37:17.829 --> 00:37:22.110 the relationships they form with their clients are going to be increasingly performance based, 526 00:37:22.190 --> 00:37:27.949 their compensation is going to be increasingly performance space. But because they don't have 527 00:37:28.030 --> 00:37:31.619 a legacy of charging for their services that way are delivering them that way, 528 00:37:31.659 --> 00:37:35.579 they're sort of confused about where to start, and so I think this has 529 00:37:35.579 --> 00:37:39.139 been a good starting point for some of them to think more creatively about that 530 00:37:39.500 --> 00:37:45.369 and maybe be less fearful about it as well, and so I want to 531 00:37:45.409 --> 00:37:49.570 really thank you for sharing some of your expertise and I really enjoyed the capacity 532 00:37:49.610 --> 00:37:53.210 building conversation too, because I think it is it's so rare to hear an 533 00:37:53.289 --> 00:38:02.400 entrepreneur who actually is that thoughtful about building that sort of culture for a business 534 00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:06.960 that's the size that yours is. You might see it an enterprise's where it's 535 00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:10.360 extremely hard to implement, but or in really tiny businesses, but you've got 536 00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:15.070 maybe what's considered a small business in some circles but a very large one to 537 00:38:15.190 --> 00:38:20.789 some of the agencies. Are Listening here and you've really given us some great 538 00:38:20.829 --> 00:38:24.590 ideas and examples of how to think about taking care of the people who help 539 00:38:24.710 --> 00:38:29.539 us, server our clients every day. Yeah, and look, if that's 540 00:38:29.579 --> 00:38:32.460 not you don't do it like I think the biggest thing I've learned about leadership 541 00:38:32.460 --> 00:38:36.539 journey is, like, just tell people what you value and who you are 542 00:38:36.539 --> 00:38:39.860 authentically. If you're a hypercompetitive person and you want to cut through competitive environment, 543 00:38:39.980 --> 00:38:43.969 there are plenty of people out there like that. Just don't say we 544 00:38:44.090 --> 00:38:47.929 all work together and Kumbaya and it's very refreshing to just, you know, 545 00:38:49.289 --> 00:38:52.849 be yourself and say who you want to be and do that consistently. So 546 00:38:52.010 --> 00:38:54.530 this is something we decided we want to do. We're consistent about it. 547 00:38:54.610 --> 00:38:59.159 It's not for everyone. Right along. Look, if I can tell you 548 00:38:59.199 --> 00:39:01.840 if you're someone maybe just in general or because of circumstance in your life, 549 00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:06.239 that kind of just wants to the Middle Lane like you, will not like 550 00:39:06.400 --> 00:39:08.199 working here. Like work. We're all about investing you, in improving you, 551 00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:10.909 but we have high expectations. We move fast. It's changing like a 552 00:39:10.949 --> 00:39:14.590 lot of people don't like it, but I don't think they say that. 553 00:39:14.710 --> 00:39:16.869 They'll say, I don't I picked the wrong team, not like I was 554 00:39:16.909 --> 00:39:21.349 sold a bag of goods. Yeah, I don't. Don't. Don't say 555 00:39:21.349 --> 00:39:24.900 anything you don't believe in to recruit people because you just it's going to come 556 00:39:24.940 --> 00:39:29.219 out eventually. And the amount of people I do the cultural on boarding and 557 00:39:29.340 --> 00:39:32.219 they talked about all the core values at their last company that they were recited 558 00:39:32.300 --> 00:39:36.099 the first day, that they never heard it again. No one talked about 559 00:39:36.179 --> 00:39:39.929 like that's to really upsets people more than not having anything at all. Yeah, 560 00:39:40.610 --> 00:39:49.929 it's so interesting when you talk to particularly millennial or Z aged workers. 561 00:39:50.530 --> 00:39:53.679 They really are are so much more in tune to that then probably most of 562 00:39:53.719 --> 00:39:58.440 us who founded companies were where we were getting into the work world. They 563 00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:01.920 truly will make a decision whether to stay or whether to go based on how 564 00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:07.389 well you execute that. So I think the authenticity is a huge part of 565 00:40:07.429 --> 00:40:13.429 that. Yeah, and it's frankly a lot easier. Yeah, yeah, 566 00:40:13.750 --> 00:40:16.269 living in alignment with what you have and doing what you actually say is a 567 00:40:16.309 --> 00:40:22.940 lot easier, thanking a lot less exhausting. I totally agree with that. 568 00:40:22.139 --> 00:40:24.940 That and I think I will let you drop the MIC right there. That's 569 00:40:25.059 --> 00:40:30.059 excellent and well said. So what's the best way for people to learn more 570 00:40:30.179 --> 00:40:36.090 about what acceleration partners does and about your body of work around elevate, which 571 00:40:36.130 --> 00:40:39.650 is your capacity building book? Sure, where can they find you? Yeah, 572 00:40:39.730 --> 00:40:44.969 so if you're interested in learning more about acceleration partners, it's probably easier 573 00:40:44.969 --> 00:40:47.849 to Google it, acceleration partners and then find us. or It's acceleration PARTNERSCOM. 574 00:40:49.369 --> 00:40:53.199 As you can spell acceleration, you'll see, you'll find it. And 575 00:40:54.199 --> 00:41:00.159 so outside of that, my the Friday forward book podcast, everything is at 576 00:41:00.159 --> 00:41:06.550 Robert glazercom. That's Gla Zarcom, and you can learn all about there and 577 00:41:06.630 --> 00:41:08.630 see writing an articles, a lot of stuff that I do on culture. 578 00:41:08.630 --> 00:41:15.469 Yeah, and Bob sends out an email on Fridays with a lot of a 579 00:41:15.550 --> 00:41:22.300 lot of this culturally based thought leadership. It's a lot of really mindset stuff, 580 00:41:22.500 --> 00:41:25.579 culture stuff. I really enjoy taking a look at them on Friday's. 581 00:41:25.619 --> 00:41:29.659 I find them very inspiring, so check into that as well and to getting 582 00:41:29.659 --> 00:41:32.289 on that mailing list. And I really enjoy talking with you today. I 583 00:41:32.369 --> 00:41:36.969 so appreciate you taking time to come on the PODCAST. Thank you very much 584 00:41:36.969 --> 00:41:42.610 for having me. We really hope you enjoyed this episode in the Hashtag Agency 585 00:41:42.610 --> 00:41:46.800 series from the innovative agency. To hear more episodes along these lines, check 586 00:41:46.840 --> 00:41:52.400 out the innovative agency in Apple podcast. You are favorite podcast player, or 587 00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.079 the links right in the show notes for this episode. As always, thank 588 00:41:55.079 --> 00:42:01.789 you so much for listening. For the longest time I was asking people to 589 00:42:01.909 --> 00:42:07.190 leave a review of BTB growth in apple podcasts, but I realize that was 590 00:42:07.269 --> 00:42:12.230 kind of stupid because leaving a review is way harder than just leaving a simple 591 00:42:12.230 --> 00:42:15.179 rating. So I'm changing my Qunabat. Instead of asking you to leave a 592 00:42:15.219 --> 00:42:19.099 review, I'm just going to ask you to go to beb growth and apple 593 00:42:19.179 --> 00:42:23.219 podcasts, scroll down until you see the ratings and reviews section and just tap 594 00:42:23.340 --> 00:42:28.219 the number of stars you want to guess. No review necessary, super easy 595 00:42:28.500 --> 00:42:30.969 and I promise it will help us out a ton. If you want to 596 00:42:31.050 --> 00:42:35.889 copy on my book content base networking to shoot me a text after you leave 597 00:42:35.929 --> 00:42:38.210 the rating and I'll send one your way. Text me at four hundred seven 598 00:42:38.530 --> 00:42:42.050 for and I know three hund and, three two eight
