Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.310 Hey there, this is James Carberry, founder of sweet fish media and one 2 00:00:08.310 --> 00:00:11.189 of the cohosts of this show. For the last year and a half I've 3 00:00:11.189 --> 00:00:14.990 been working on my very first book. In the book I share the three 4 00:00:15.029 --> 00:00:18.910 part framework we've used as the foundation for our growth. Here is sweetfish. 5 00:00:19.350 --> 00:00:22.620 Now there are lots of companies that everised a bunch of money and have grown 6 00:00:22.699 --> 00:00:25.579 insanely fast, and we featured a lot of them here on the show. 7 00:00:26.339 --> 00:00:30.579 We've decided to bootstrap our business, which usually equates to pretty slow growth, 8 00:00:31.100 --> 00:00:34.700 but using the strategy outlined in the book, we are on pace to be 9 00:00:34.859 --> 00:00:38.649 one of inks fastest growing companies in two thousand and twenty. The book is 10 00:00:38.729 --> 00:00:42.729 called content based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. 11 00:00:43.250 --> 00:00:45.329 If you're a fan of audio books like me, you can find the 12 00:00:45.369 --> 00:00:48.450 book on audible or if you like physical books, you can also find it 13 00:00:48.570 --> 00:00:54.359 on Amazon. Just search content based networking or James carberry CR be a ary 14 00:00:54.759 --> 00:00:58.759 in audible or Amazon and it should pop right up. All right, let's 15 00:00:58.759 --> 00:01:03.439 get into the show. Hey, everybody, logan with sweet fish here. 16 00:01:03.679 --> 00:01:07.629 It's a new year and at new decade and we're celebrating by rounding up the 17 00:01:07.750 --> 00:01:11.469 top twenty episodes as we look back on two thousand and nineteen. Will be 18 00:01:11.549 --> 00:01:15.950 sharing them here throughout the month of January in our Hashtag best of two thousand 19 00:01:15.989 --> 00:01:19.260 and nineteen series. We've reached the end of our top twenty countdown of the 20 00:01:19.340 --> 00:01:25.060 best episodes of two thousand and nineteen and today you hear from Christopher lockhead again. 21 00:01:25.340 --> 00:01:30.260 He did a two part series within the category creation series with John Rougie 22 00:01:30.340 --> 00:01:34.890 here on BB growth. Another great conversation with him. Is Why it comes 23 00:01:34.969 --> 00:01:38.569 in at number one in our best of two thousand and nineteen series. If 24 00:01:38.609 --> 00:01:42.890 you like this topic of category creation in category design, you may want to 25 00:01:42.930 --> 00:01:47.319 check out Christopher's own podcast. Follow you're different. It's one that I really 26 00:01:47.359 --> 00:01:52.000 enjoy and have been subscribed to lately as well. If you enjoyed this episode 27 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:55.200 but you didn't catch all of the top twenty of two thousand and nineteen, 28 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:59.799 you can go to sweet phish mediacoma blog, scroll down and look on the 29 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:04.109 right hand side for Hashtag Best of two thousand and nineteen in the categories there 30 00:02:04.269 --> 00:02:07.469 and you'll find our top twenty episodes from all of two thousand and nineteen. 31 00:02:09.629 --> 00:02:14.469 Hi there and welcome to another episode of the Category Creation Series on the BDB 32 00:02:14.629 --> 00:02:19.500 growth show. I'm John Rougie. This is part two of our conversation with 33 00:02:19.620 --> 00:02:23.539 Chris Lockhead. If you haven't heard part one yet, pause your podcast player 34 00:02:23.580 --> 00:02:27.539 right now and check that at first there's some great foundational material in there about 35 00:02:27.620 --> 00:02:31.330 what category design is and why marketers should care about it. A quick refresher 36 00:02:31.370 --> 00:02:35.250 about Chris is in order first, though. Chris is the author of a 37 00:02:35.370 --> 00:02:38.530 play bigger, the go to book on category design. He's a widely accomplished 38 00:02:38.650 --> 00:02:44.289 silicon valley CMO and he's been described as the Bruce Willis of category design. 39 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:47.599 In part one, Chris shared why he thinks category design is a marketing superpower, 40 00:02:49.080 --> 00:02:53.080 why the category kings tend to capture seventy six percent of the markets economics 41 00:02:53.159 --> 00:02:57.840 on average, and how legendary businesses need to design a great company, a 42 00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:01.110 great product and a great category. Now in part two will hear why Chris 43 00:03:01.270 --> 00:03:07.310 believes Pepsi's attempts to unseat Coke as the category king is one of the dumbest 44 00:03:07.469 --> 00:03:12.310 marketing efforts ever. Will hear what Pacasso can teach marketers about the importance of 45 00:03:12.389 --> 00:03:15.300 being different and we'll hear a Chris explain why trying to convince people that you 46 00:03:15.340 --> 00:03:19.939 are better than something else can actually work against you. Now, when we 47 00:03:20.020 --> 00:03:23.699 left off, Chris had just finished telling us how legendary companies spend more time 48 00:03:23.900 --> 00:03:29.610 on marketing the problem they're solving and less time marketing the products themselves. When 49 00:03:29.610 --> 00:03:32.210 we pick back up, all start by asking Chris for his take on whether 50 00:03:32.330 --> 00:03:38.210 aspiring category designers need a huge marketing budget worth category design can actually happen more 51 00:03:38.250 --> 00:03:43.120 organically. So, without further ADO, here is part two of our conversation 52 00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:49.560 with Chris lockhead. So you talked about defining this problem and marketing that versus 53 00:03:49.599 --> 00:03:53.680 the product itself. Does that process mean that you have to have a huge 54 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:57.750 advertising budget, a huge team to support that, a big kind of Pr 55 00:03:57.830 --> 00:04:01.110 Push, or is it you know, equally or can it be effective if 56 00:04:01.189 --> 00:04:04.990 you kind of are taking it from a more of a grassroots approach or more 57 00:04:04.990 --> 00:04:10.340 of our own organic route? You can absolutely take the more organic route and 58 00:04:10.740 --> 00:04:15.660 Victor Victor Hugo famously said all the armies of the world cannot stop an idea 59 00:04:15.699 --> 00:04:19.980 whose time has come, and so in a lot of ways category design line 60 00:04:20.819 --> 00:04:28.209 is a process and approach to making it your time. And so as you 61 00:04:28.290 --> 00:04:31.290 go to execute from a marketing perspective, what you want to ask yourself is 62 00:04:31.850 --> 00:04:38.449 what's the best way to have my point of view about a problem and therefore 63 00:04:38.490 --> 00:04:44.639 a solution catch fire? And look, would having a two hundred and fifty 64 00:04:44.680 --> 00:04:47.959 million dollar marketing budget help? Sure, but you know, if you look 65 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:53.110 at it, most startups don't have anywhere near that. And so the thing 66 00:04:53.189 --> 00:04:57.269 you got to ask yourself is, what are the ways in which I can 67 00:04:57.670 --> 00:05:02.350 move the thinking in the space to my agenda, and begin to ask yourself 68 00:05:02.389 --> 00:05:04.550 that. And you know, we can get into tactics if you like, 69 00:05:04.709 --> 00:05:09.420 John. There's a lot of ways to go after this thing, but fundamentally 70 00:05:09.420 --> 00:05:13.540 you're doing something different. But most people are doing is they're competing. They're 71 00:05:13.579 --> 00:05:16.660 competing on price, they're competing on speeds and feeds. My carbondingulators, and 72 00:05:16.699 --> 00:05:20.139 I'm going to use this word on purpose, better than your carbondingulator, and 73 00:05:20.339 --> 00:05:28.569 anybody who's having a better conversation has fallen into a product feature and price war, 74 00:05:29.170 --> 00:05:31.250 and that's always a race to the bottom. The other thing about this 75 00:05:31.449 --> 00:05:38.639 word better is when I say my products better than your product, what's left 76 00:05:38.720 --> 00:05:44.040 in everybody's mind, is your product better? Is a comparison game. And 77 00:05:44.639 --> 00:05:46.399 so you know, right now, I don't know if you've seen this, 78 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:51.509 add the idiots at Pepsi are spending God unknown millions of dollars on a new 79 00:05:51.589 --> 00:05:57.550 campaign with the guy from the office. And which guy? I don't want 80 00:05:57.550 --> 00:06:00.029 a slot of TV. which which got the main guy? Steve Carrell, 81 00:06:00.509 --> 00:06:04.420 Sieve Kraft? Yeah, and the first set of ads have this are, 82 00:06:04.579 --> 00:06:08.699 I think, in a diner, if I'm remembering right, and the waiter, 83 00:06:08.939 --> 00:06:11.579 waitress, comes up to these folks and says, you know what, 84 00:06:11.740 --> 00:06:14.100 can I get you to drink? And they say, you know, we'd 85 00:06:14.139 --> 00:06:17.379 like a coke, and the waiter says will Pepsi do or is Pepsi all 86 00:06:17.420 --> 00:06:21.329 right, or something like this, and then this actor gets up and says, 87 00:06:21.449 --> 00:06:25.170 is Pepsi All Right? Well, Pepsi's Awesome and it's this and it's 88 00:06:25.209 --> 00:06:30.009 that and and I'm sitting there going you dumb efforts. You guys are so 89 00:06:30.410 --> 00:06:35.600 stupid, because the minute he says well, Pepsi's who do you mean? 90 00:06:35.720 --> 00:06:41.920 Pepsi's all right, they're comparing himself to coke. And so whenever we compare 91 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:45.800 ourselves to somebody else. What's left in the mind of the customer, the 92 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:48.910 consumer, the buyer, is the thing that we are comparing ourselves to, 93 00:06:49.350 --> 00:06:55.069 as opposed to our own unique space. And so all they're doing with this 94 00:06:55.629 --> 00:07:00.230 multi zillion dollar campaign is telling the entire world that coke is a category king 95 00:07:00.430 --> 00:07:05.579 and we're not. It's the dumbest marketing campaign maybe in history, and that's 96 00:07:05.660 --> 00:07:12.420 the trap that everybody falls into. This this comparison game, and all the 97 00:07:12.500 --> 00:07:15.930 comparison game does is valid that the company, end or product you're comparing yourself 98 00:07:16.050 --> 00:07:20.449 to is the category King and you're not. So it really works against you 99 00:07:20.529 --> 00:07:25.810 because you're you're having the conversation on someone else's terms instead of your own. 100 00:07:26.449 --> 00:07:30.560 Yes, and you're also the game is wired against you because the rules have 101 00:07:30.720 --> 00:07:34.519 been created by somebody else. The minute go Joe Industry says, well, 102 00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:40.959 it's not about how do I wash my hands, it's about how do I 103 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:46.310 get my hands clean in the absence of water. They have redesigned the way 104 00:07:46.430 --> 00:07:50.670 we think about it. Yeah, it's it's funny you mentioned that coke and 105 00:07:50.709 --> 00:07:56.550 pepsie example, because a few decades ago they did that famous kind of taste 106 00:07:56.709 --> 00:08:00.339 test campaign where they talked about how Pepsi tastes better than coke, which is 107 00:08:01.060 --> 00:08:03.420 exactly kind of going against what you talked about earlier. It's a, says, 108 00:08:03.540 --> 00:08:07.139 subjective, but they're trying to positions. They were. They were trying 109 00:08:07.180 --> 00:08:11.300 to position Pepsi as kind of an objective better a product than coke, and 110 00:08:11.379 --> 00:08:15.170 then, you know, thirty years later they're still finding the same battle. 111 00:08:15.410 --> 00:08:18.730 Yeah, the other thing that the the category does, of course, is 112 00:08:18.529 --> 00:08:24.170 they look at who number one is and they assume that number one is the 113 00:08:24.209 --> 00:08:28.040 best product. That's the assumption that you and I make. The other thing 114 00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:31.519 that's interesting if you get into the human psychology of it, John, is 115 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:37.480 human beings are pack animals. We don't want to be an outlier because if 116 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:41.509 there's ten of us together in the woods and two of us are away over 117 00:08:41.629 --> 00:08:45.789 here and eight of us are over there, the two that are way over 118 00:08:45.950 --> 00:08:50.070 here are the ones more likely to get eaten by the bear. And so 119 00:08:50.590 --> 00:08:56.860 every user of zoom makes potential users of zoom more comfortable that zoom is what 120 00:08:56.899 --> 00:09:03.019 I should do. And so human beings are heard or pack animals, and 121 00:09:03.220 --> 00:09:09.179 so we are comforted by buying the product or service that is the category King. 122 00:09:09.220 --> 00:09:11.169 Yeah, it's like I think in the book you mentioned, it's kind 123 00:09:11.210 --> 00:09:18.090 of a self reinforcing cycle where the category king is seen as, like you 124 00:09:18.129 --> 00:09:20.730 said, the best product and then people buy that product or that service because 125 00:09:20.769 --> 00:09:26.799 it's perceived as the best and it just continues to cycle itself or drive itself 126 00:09:26.840 --> 00:09:30.480 from there. And I know one of the other points you made is when 127 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:35.879 companies are faced with a potentially new category that's coming to market, there's a 128 00:09:35.960 --> 00:09:39.149 real need for them to take the initiative and define that because if they don't, 129 00:09:39.470 --> 00:09:43.590 someone else is going to do that and we'll be caught in kind of 130 00:09:43.629 --> 00:09:46.789 a secondary position. You tell me a little bit more about that? Yeah, 131 00:09:46.789 --> 00:09:48.470 I'll give you one that has been going on the tech industry for a 132 00:09:48.549 --> 00:09:52.299 long time. A lot of people say email sucks, I hate email. 133 00:09:52.460 --> 00:09:56.379 When somebody going to reimagine email, and this has been tried many, many 134 00:09:56.419 --> 00:10:01.700 times, and the reason that no one's been able to displace email, even 135 00:10:01.740 --> 00:10:07.090 though many of us agree that the email paradigm is not maybe the greatest paradigm, 136 00:10:07.129 --> 00:10:13.049 is because everyone that has tried to take out email has been using email 137 00:10:13.090 --> 00:10:16.210 as the point of reference. Right. So if I say to you, 138 00:10:16.210 --> 00:10:20.409 Hey, John don't think about pink dinosaurs, whatever you do. No, 139 00:10:20.759 --> 00:10:24.799 no, pink dinosaurs. Don't think about pink dinosaurs. You can think about 140 00:10:24.840 --> 00:10:26.360 anything you want to think about, but not a pink dinosaur. You can 141 00:10:26.399 --> 00:10:30.279 create any animal you want, any color you want, but just no pink 142 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:33.200 dinosaurs. What's in your mind? Yeah, of course pink dinosaurs. Right. 143 00:10:33.240 --> 00:10:37.830 And so the reality is, if the problem is how do we have 144 00:10:37.909 --> 00:10:45.070 an asynchronous communication that shows up as a time based feed in an inbox? 145 00:10:45.669 --> 00:10:50.820 Well, email wins and everybody who has tried to take out email for the 146 00:10:50.940 --> 00:10:56.100 most part has lived inside of the framing of the problem that is email. 147 00:10:56.700 --> 00:11:01.379 And until you reframe the problem, no one's going to take out email. 148 00:11:01.779 --> 00:11:03.730 that. Does that make any sense? Huhn? Yeah, it's like you're 149 00:11:05.090 --> 00:11:09.289 you're talking about your offering in terms of the kind of the wrong problem. 150 00:11:09.330 --> 00:11:11.850 You're talking about why it's better than something else. That kind of goes back 151 00:11:11.889 --> 00:11:15.889 to that cooke versus Pepsi example. It's like you're setting the stage of you 152 00:11:16.009 --> 00:11:18.919 know, this is why what we're doing is better than email. Out All 153 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:22.480 of a sudden someone has to maybe give up emails to use this new thing, 154 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.120 which poses a huge kind of mental barrier that they have to get through 155 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:31.159 and instead of taking them to maybe a new way of communicating and reframing a 156 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:35.870 different style, maybe synchronous, you know, were non time based perhaps, 157 00:11:35.950 --> 00:11:41.110 but like that, that shift is it hasn't happened. They're like they're talking 158 00:11:41.149 --> 00:11:43.870 about something that is is working against them. They don't really have a way 159 00:11:45.669 --> 00:11:48.539 to talk about what they're doing in in a way that maybe compliments email or 160 00:11:48.700 --> 00:11:52.500 goes on top of email or kind of benefits you in some other way. 161 00:11:52.820 --> 00:11:54.700 Yeah, I'll give you a simple example that I think certainly I can relate 162 00:11:54.740 --> 00:11:58.740 to, maybe most people can as well. There's a small chain of restaurants 163 00:11:58.779 --> 00:12:05.809 in the San Francisco Bay area Sushi restaurants. Now, you think about Sushi 164 00:12:05.929 --> 00:12:09.769 restaurant as a category, it's a wellknown category. If I say to you, 165 00:12:09.850 --> 00:12:13.889 Hey, John, we're going out tonight for Sushi, you have a 166 00:12:13.970 --> 00:12:16.159 picture in your mind of what that's probably going to look like, right. 167 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:22.000 Yeah, this company said we're not going to solve a problem called how do 168 00:12:22.039 --> 00:12:26.320 you make great Sushi, which is the problem that most people look at when 169 00:12:26.320 --> 00:12:30.190 they open a Sushi restaurant. Maybe they and maybe they think how we got 170 00:12:30.230 --> 00:12:33.470 to make great Sushi and make money doing maybe they look at it that way 171 00:12:33.509 --> 00:12:35.870 anyway. However they look at it, is how they look at it, 172 00:12:35.990 --> 00:12:39.029 and they do what most Sushi restaurant entrepreneurs do, which is they compete on 173 00:12:39.750 --> 00:12:43.779 how awesome our Sushi is, the location of our restaurant, how awesome our 174 00:12:43.820 --> 00:12:48.100 staff is and the value that we deliver ie, you know, price for 175 00:12:48.179 --> 00:12:54.019 quality is good, and they they accept those kinds of dimensions, if you 176 00:12:54.139 --> 00:12:58.330 will, of competition as the only way to compete. And what they what 177 00:12:58.490 --> 00:13:03.289 they hope for, because they're artists, because there their chefs, is that 178 00:13:03.450 --> 00:13:07.090 when they open their restaurant, people are going to say, wow, that's 179 00:13:07.129 --> 00:13:11.049 the best Sushi I ever tasted. That's how most entrepreneurs think, and that's 180 00:13:11.049 --> 00:13:13.960 how tech entrepreneurs think as well. All, that's the greatest algorithm ever. 181 00:13:15.159 --> 00:13:18.559 Right, Oh wow, I've never seen a carbon ingulator so fast and so 182 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:22.559 elegant. Right, that's what they're all trying to build. So this small 183 00:13:22.639 --> 00:13:26.230 chain of Sushi restaurants reimagine the problem, and here's how they reimagined it. 184 00:13:26.309 --> 00:13:31.590 They said, we love Sushi and we love eating on the go, but 185 00:13:31.070 --> 00:13:35.350 Sushi on the go stucks. I don't know if you're try to eat Sushi 186 00:13:35.389 --> 00:13:39.309 walking down the street or eat Sushi in your car while you're dry, and 187 00:13:39.350 --> 00:13:41.820 like gets a disaster, right, because the sauce everywhere and they're you know, 188 00:13:41.899 --> 00:13:46.379 Rice gets everywhere, and it doesn't. Sushi is not a good portable 189 00:13:46.379 --> 00:13:50.899 food, right. Yeah, closest thing I that is those those premade Sushi 190 00:13:52.580 --> 00:13:56.570 containers of the grocery store. I'm trying to eat something semihealthy, but yes, 191 00:13:56.409 --> 00:14:01.409 it's like mediocre at best. So these guys create a new category and 192 00:14:01.570 --> 00:14:07.250 they call up the Sushi Rito. They take the concept of a Burrito and 193 00:14:07.370 --> 00:14:11.879 they apply it to Sushi and therefore they solve and the problem called how I 194 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:15.240 eat Sushi on the go, and they're killing it. And, like I 195 00:14:15.279 --> 00:14:18.399 said, they're six or seven of them, they're growing very rapidly and they 196 00:14:18.440 --> 00:14:22.720 are not competing on the traditional dimensions. They're competing on a new dimension, 197 00:14:22.759 --> 00:14:26.710 which is, what's the best way to eat Sushi on the go, to 198 00:14:26.110 --> 00:14:31.710 a Sushi Rito. And so they have differentiated themselves, and I use that 199 00:14:31.789 --> 00:14:37.110 word very much on purpose, by creating a new category of Sushi called the 200 00:14:37.230 --> 00:14:43.659 Sushirito, and there are now knockoffs of the Sushirito who are trying to engage 201 00:14:43.700 --> 00:14:46.620 in a battle with them, saying, well, our sushirito tastes better than 202 00:14:46.659 --> 00:14:50.539 their sushirito. But, just like the idiots at Pepsi, when you do 203 00:14:50.779 --> 00:14:54.210 that, when you rip off the Sushirito, all you're doing is telling the 204 00:14:54.289 --> 00:15:00.049 world that the original sushirito is better than my knockoff poser Sushirito. Right, 205 00:15:00.330 --> 00:15:05.409 and and yet this is the mistake that entrepreneurs make over and over and over 206 00:15:05.529 --> 00:15:09.200 again. They are essentially doing a copycat strategy. And my question is, 207 00:15:09.000 --> 00:15:13.080 why fit in when you can stand out? Why not do something unique? 208 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:18.639 If you look at every company, every entrepreneur, every marketer, every brand, 209 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:24.230 every artist, every scientist, every political leader that you respect, admire, 210 00:15:24.230 --> 00:15:28.509 love and joy, they all share some characteristics, and one of them 211 00:15:28.590 --> 00:15:35.820 is they broke or took new ground. They are viewed as being the first. 212 00:15:37.700 --> 00:15:41.740 Whether they were they weren't is irrelevant. But the reason we know who 213 00:15:41.740 --> 00:15:43.899 Picasso is and if you look at his wikipedia page, in the first or 214 00:15:43.940 --> 00:15:48.860 second sentence it says he's the founder, he's the Godfather, he's the creator 215 00:15:48.220 --> 00:15:54.169 of a new type of art called cubism. Well, we know his name. 216 00:15:54.490 --> 00:15:58.250 We don't know the eighty seven most successful cubist artist in the world. 217 00:15:58.289 --> 00:16:00.649 We never heard of her. Right. We know who Bob Marley is. 218 00:16:02.169 --> 00:16:04.720 We don't know who the thirty two most popular reggae band in the world is, 219 00:16:04.840 --> 00:16:10.879 because Bob Marley is the category designer of a new category, a new 220 00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:17.399 type of music called Reggan. And so my question for entrepreneurs, my question 221 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:22.110 for marketers, is who would you rather be? ACASSO or Marley, or 222 00:16:22.470 --> 00:16:26.470 the forty seven company? Would you rather be Sushi Rito or the Fifth Sushi 223 00:16:26.470 --> 00:16:33.779 Rito Company? Imagine it, a spreadsheet filled with rows and rows of your 224 00:16:33.820 --> 00:16:38.779 sales enablement assets. You've devoted two years to organizing this masterpiece, only for 225 00:16:38.899 --> 00:16:44.299 it to stop making sense. This was Chad trabuccos reality. As the head 226 00:16:44.340 --> 00:16:48.370 of sales enablement at glent a linkedin company, he's responsible for instilling confidence in 227 00:16:48.490 --> 00:16:52.450 his sales reps and arming them with the information they need to do their jobs. 228 00:16:52.809 --> 00:16:57.250 However, when his glorious spreadsheet became too complex, he realized he needed 229 00:16:57.289 --> 00:17:02.240 a new system. That's when Chad turned to guru. With Guru, the 230 00:17:02.360 --> 00:17:07.799 knowledge you need to do your job finds you between Guru's Web interface slack integration, 231 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:12.440 mobile APP and browser extension, teams can easily search for verified knowledge without 232 00:17:12.559 --> 00:17:18.430 leaving their workflow. No more siload or staled information. Guru acts as your 233 00:17:18.509 --> 00:17:22.390 single source of truth. For Chad, this meant glent sales reps were left 234 00:17:22.430 --> 00:17:27.109 feeling more confident doing their jobs. See why leading companies like glint, shopify, 235 00:17:27.509 --> 00:17:33.339 spotify, slack and more are using guru for their knowledge management needs. 236 00:17:33.819 --> 00:17:40.299 Visit BB growth dot get gurucom to start your thirty day free trial and discover 237 00:17:40.619 --> 00:17:48.089 how knowledge management can empower your revenue teams. Right, right. So I've 238 00:17:48.130 --> 00:17:52.049 heard a couple of comments on kind of whether a category exists in kind of 239 00:17:52.089 --> 00:17:56.170 its nest and stages, and so what I mean by that is for some 240 00:17:56.329 --> 00:18:00.319 folks say, well, it's not really a category if you're the only company 241 00:18:00.480 --> 00:18:03.519 participating in that space. In order for it to be a category, there 242 00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:08.640 has to be multiple companies participating. Now at the same time there there still 243 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:11.990 has to be a first because one point that category should not exist, and 244 00:18:12.029 --> 00:18:15.630 then one company emerged, two, three, four, five and so on. 245 00:18:15.269 --> 00:18:21.950 And so how do you balance that dynamic of looking at a space wanting 246 00:18:22.109 --> 00:18:27.180 to be the first but also recognizing that if others don't participate in that space, 247 00:18:27.259 --> 00:18:32.339 then maybe you haven't really designed a category. Maybe you've just designed a 248 00:18:32.579 --> 00:18:36.819 unique position. And is that it downside? Is that something negative you should 249 00:18:36.819 --> 00:18:40.140 look out for? Or maybe I'm looking at things the wrong way? Yeah, 250 00:18:40.140 --> 00:18:44.849 it's a great question. So I just had this conversation with an entrepreneur 251 00:18:45.250 --> 00:18:52.049 and he was going to name his product and his category the same thing and 252 00:18:52.210 --> 00:18:56.119 he was going to trademark and I said, well, if you trade market 253 00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.319 it won't become a category. Right. So iphone is a brand, smartphone 254 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:06.119 is a category. Right, right, right, and so that's ultimately what 255 00:19:06.240 --> 00:19:08.920 you want. You want to have a category name that you do not trademark 256 00:19:10.069 --> 00:19:15.190 and you absolutely want competition to rip off. And here's the truth. Look, 257 00:19:15.230 --> 00:19:17.589 let me just say something. It may not make me a lot of 258 00:19:17.630 --> 00:19:21.710 friends, but I'll say it anyway. Most people are freaking stupid. Most 259 00:19:21.789 --> 00:19:26.700 people are not creative, most people are not innovative, most people don't do 260 00:19:26.140 --> 00:19:30.660 any real thinking, that is to say, thinking about thinking is the most 261 00:19:30.700 --> 00:19:34.940 powerful thinking you can do, and most people don't do thinking about thinking. 262 00:19:36.779 --> 00:19:41.369 My friend and mentor, Bich Vixen, said most people and most companies are 263 00:19:41.609 --> 00:19:48.809 living inside of somebody else's thinking. And ultimately, category design is a way 264 00:19:48.890 --> 00:19:53.480 of thinking about new ways of having a market category work in your favor. 265 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:59.119 Right. And so, given all of that, if you design a new 266 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:04.680 category, you have evangelized that category powerfully with a really creative, innovative point 267 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:08.670 of view that frames a problem and teaches the world to move from the way 268 00:20:08.670 --> 00:20:11.589 it is to the way you want it to be. Don't drive to blockbuster, 269 00:20:11.710 --> 00:20:15.029 go to a website called Netflix and just have the movies magically show up 270 00:20:15.029 --> 00:20:18.869 in your mail box. And course, today we stream. That's an idea, 271 00:20:19.190 --> 00:20:23.299 that's a point of view, right. And so here's the truth. 272 00:20:23.339 --> 00:20:29.220 If you have a powerful category design that that and a point of view that 273 00:20:29.339 --> 00:20:33.740 delivers against that category design, then your idiot competitors, when they see you 274 00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:37.730 having success, will rip you off. They will come and you want to 275 00:20:37.809 --> 00:20:44.529 welcome them. So you don't want to look at competition as a negative. 276 00:20:44.569 --> 00:20:48.809 It's something you really want to foster to help. Go back to that point 277 00:20:48.809 --> 00:20:52.680 you made earlier about as a category leader, you don't want to market your 278 00:20:52.720 --> 00:20:56.400 product, you want to market the category itself, and having competition really helps 279 00:20:56.440 --> 00:21:00.680 you do that. Yes, and so the only way I want to compete 280 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:06.190 is by having others compete with me. I don't want to compete with anybody 281 00:21:06.230 --> 00:21:08.670 else. So when somebody says, well, who's your competition, my answer 282 00:21:08.789 --> 00:21:15.150 is always well, we don't have any real direct competition. We do something 283 00:21:15.269 --> 00:21:18.109 different and that changes the conversation. If I say to you, Hey, 284 00:21:18.150 --> 00:21:22.660 John, let's go to dinner tonight, and maybe you're visiting me here in 285 00:21:22.700 --> 00:21:26.140 Santa Cruz and I'm telling you about some of my favorite restaurants in town, 286 00:21:26.259 --> 00:21:30.660 I say, and so I'm thinking about maybe Italian or Sushi. which do 287 00:21:30.740 --> 00:21:34.809 you prefer? That forces a choice in a way that you know I'm thinking 288 00:21:34.849 --> 00:21:41.049 about Italian or pizza. Doesn't force a choice. You follow me? And 289 00:21:41.210 --> 00:21:45.930 so legendary entrepreneurs, the way they want to compete is by having others compete 290 00:21:47.009 --> 00:21:52.480 with them. But we don't compete with others. Sarah Blakeley, the founder 291 00:21:52.519 --> 00:21:56.480 of spanks, in the creator of the shape, where category refuse to have 292 00:21:56.759 --> 00:22:03.069 her, and these are her words, innovation, her invention be thought of 293 00:22:03.109 --> 00:22:06.750 as a girdle. It's not a girdle, it's shape, where it's a 294 00:22:06.829 --> 00:22:11.190 new invention. Those are her words right, and the reality is it would 295 00:22:11.190 --> 00:22:15.900 have been very easy to position that stuff as a girdle to dotto, and 296 00:22:15.099 --> 00:22:18.539 nobody wants a girdle, but hey, shape where? Wouldn't you like to 297 00:22:18.579 --> 00:22:23.619 be a little bit more shapely? And she's the most wealthy, selfmade female 298 00:22:23.660 --> 00:22:30.210 billionaire in American history and it's because she distinguished herself, because she did something 299 00:22:30.730 --> 00:22:34.490 different, and now there are shape where competitors. Same thing with Lulu Lemon. 300 00:22:34.529 --> 00:22:37.009 I don't know about where you live, John, but sometimes I think 301 00:22:37.009 --> 00:22:41.329 in Santa Cruz County there's a law that says twenty five percent of the women 302 00:22:41.410 --> 00:22:45.640 must be wearing lululemon pants at all time. Yep, and they are the 303 00:22:45.880 --> 00:22:52.680 creators of a new category of clothing called at leisure right. And now when 304 00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:57.950 women go to buy quote unquote, Yoga Pants or athlets or clothes, they 305 00:22:57.990 --> 00:23:03.309 are the gold standard because they are, by definition, the category Queen. 306 00:23:03.309 --> 00:23:07.190 And so if you're not wearing Lulu, then you're not wearing the original stuff. 307 00:23:07.869 --> 00:23:12.539 They created a whole New Paradigm in women's clothing. Now, had there 308 00:23:12.660 --> 00:23:18.500 been stretchy, spandexy, you know, close fitting pants for women before? 309 00:23:18.740 --> 00:23:23.460 Sure, they're had, course, but they went out and evangelize this bath 310 00:23:23.660 --> 00:23:30.809 leisure lifestyle and tied their category to an emerging I don't know if you want 311 00:23:30.849 --> 00:23:33.450 to call it sport or activity or whatever you want to call it, called 312 00:23:33.450 --> 00:23:37.089 Yoga. And by doing those things, Bam, they created a whole new 313 00:23:37.289 --> 00:23:41.960 category of clothing where one did not exist. And most people today, just 314 00:23:42.119 --> 00:23:45.480 like when, if I'm sneezy, I m'd say to you, Hey, 315 00:23:45.519 --> 00:23:48.440 John, please pass me a clean x, which, of course, is 316 00:23:48.599 --> 00:23:52.920 a brand name and the category is called a tissue. Right, most people 317 00:23:53.000 --> 00:23:56.509 say, Oh, you know, she's wearing Lulu lemon pants. She May 318 00:23:56.549 --> 00:24:00.789 or may not be wearing that brand. Lulu Lemon has become the clean x 319 00:24:02.670 --> 00:24:07.430 of Ath Leisure and Yoga Pants. So Tesla a few years ago released the 320 00:24:07.789 --> 00:24:12.859 patents on its battery design and I remember reading the commentary at the time and 321 00:24:12.940 --> 00:24:17.180 it was, I think, supporting is the same idea of you know, 322 00:24:17.259 --> 00:24:21.819 Tesla didn't just want it to be the only maker of electric cars. It 323 00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:26.369 really one of the electric car category to grow and blossom innute new by releasing 324 00:24:26.450 --> 00:24:30.329 those patents it would help foster that. So is that kind of what you're 325 00:24:30.329 --> 00:24:34.049 talking about in terms of fostering competition and not maybe a trademarking or keeping everything 326 00:24:34.089 --> 00:24:40.160 in house but allowing that you ecosystem to thrive. Yes, absolutely, and 327 00:24:40.240 --> 00:24:45.599 I would say that Elon Musk is one of the most exciting, natural intuitive 328 00:24:45.759 --> 00:24:52.480 category designers in our world today, and he understood this that if I'm the 329 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:59.509 only company evangelizing the electric car, then this category might not go. I 330 00:24:59.869 --> 00:25:03.710 need to get the entire industry to tip. I need to move the industry 331 00:25:03.710 --> 00:25:07.579 from the way it is fossil fuels to the way I want it to be 332 00:25:08.099 --> 00:25:15.059 electricity, and I need the help of competition to move a giant category in 333 00:25:15.259 --> 00:25:21.180 this newly design direction that I just created. That's exactly what he was doing 334 00:25:21.220 --> 00:25:25.930 and it's pure genius and it's worked. Look at the number of new electric 335 00:25:25.970 --> 00:25:27.890 cars now. You could argue, well, was that going to happen anyway? 336 00:25:27.970 --> 00:25:30.970 I don't know, but here's what we do know. He evangelized the 337 00:25:32.369 --> 00:25:36.039 car, he prosecuted the Magic Triangle that it's to say, Got Product Company 338 00:25:36.119 --> 00:25:41.400 in category right and, to your point, he's purposely expanding the category by 339 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:47.119 sharing some of the secrets with his competitors so that they can collaborate with him 340 00:25:47.640 --> 00:25:52.829 making the category tip. So, Chris, if I'm listening to this podcast 341 00:25:52.990 --> 00:25:59.029 and I'm entrepreneur and exact marketer thinking about category design. How do I know 342 00:25:59.269 --> 00:26:03.500 if it's something my company should pursue? It's not something that necessary. Every 343 00:26:03.539 --> 00:26:07.259 company can we should pursue. Right, we don't need tenzero categories of products. 344 00:26:07.299 --> 00:26:11.539 But you know, how does someone make that distinction of whether they go 345 00:26:11.579 --> 00:26:15.539 down this road or choose a different path? Well then, look, you 346 00:26:15.619 --> 00:26:19.369 could argue I'm overly biased. I think if you're not doing category design, 347 00:26:21.329 --> 00:26:26.849 you're an F and Moron on because what you're declaring by saying we're not going 348 00:26:26.930 --> 00:26:30.849 to do that is, by definition, we're going to let somebody else decide 349 00:26:32.529 --> 00:26:37.640 what the problem is, what the solution is and teach people about how to 350 00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:42.599 value that problem and solution. And as a result of that, we are 351 00:26:42.720 --> 00:26:49.509 going to submit to having the company that designs this category that we're in design 352 00:26:49.589 --> 00:26:53.269 it and take two thirds of the economics and we will be one of the 353 00:26:53.390 --> 00:27:00.390 fifteen, twenty five, forty five, whatever competitors fighting for a quarter of 354 00:27:00.390 --> 00:27:03.299 the economics. So if you want to just play for a quarter of the 355 00:27:03.380 --> 00:27:07.700 economics, well, somebody else sets the rules in your industry, in your 356 00:27:07.859 --> 00:27:11.579 market, in your category I think if you consciously make a frontal lobe decision 357 00:27:11.660 --> 00:27:15.809 to do that, you're an F and moron. That's what I think. 358 00:27:15.329 --> 00:27:18.329 All right, love it, love the I love the candor. So I 359 00:27:18.410 --> 00:27:22.009 want to ask you one last question. It's not a bad category design, 360 00:27:22.049 --> 00:27:25.930 or maybe it is, but you know I'm here in Lexington and most of 361 00:27:25.970 --> 00:27:29.049 the world's Bourbon is made within a couple hours of where I live and I 362 00:27:29.170 --> 00:27:33.720 know that you enjoy a kind of seeing what's what's best in that space. 363 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:37.240 So top three bourbons? Three, two, one, go. You know 364 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.880 I'm going to have a real lousy answer. I kind of like them all. 365 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:44.670 I mean I you know, I drink a lot of scotch. I 366 00:27:45.150 --> 00:27:48.910 Love Bourbon. I think probably my go to daily Bourbon. It is just 367 00:27:48.029 --> 00:27:52.829 a good old fashioned bullet bourbon. I get in trouble with a lot of 368 00:27:52.910 --> 00:27:56.990 Scotch Guru guys because I like Jack Daniels, I like a Jack and coke, 369 00:27:57.069 --> 00:28:00.460 I like gentleman's Jack, I like, I don't know if you've had 370 00:28:00.500 --> 00:28:03.900 the Frank Sinatra Jack. That's a really fun one. And so I'm generally 371 00:28:04.059 --> 00:28:07.819 somebody who mixes it up. I when I go into a bar. You 372 00:28:07.900 --> 00:28:12.089 know if they have a good bourbon selection. I'll ask the OH, here's 373 00:28:12.529 --> 00:28:18.089 this great category design. Remember when they used to be bartenders? Yeah, 374 00:28:18.690 --> 00:28:22.890 you know what they're called today where? They knows Ologists, Mix Ologists, 375 00:28:22.049 --> 00:28:25.930 right, that's what they are their mixologist. When I was a kid, 376 00:28:25.970 --> 00:28:30.640 if you bought a secondhand car, you are buying a used car. Today 377 00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:36.240 we don't buy youth cars, we buy free owned cars. That's all category 378 00:28:36.359 --> 00:28:41.670 design. That those are people changing thinking about a particular market category. Anyways, 379 00:28:41.710 --> 00:28:45.230 I digress. Like I said, like Kevin said, category design is 380 00:28:45.269 --> 00:28:48.789 a new Lens on business and once you have the lens you see categories everywhere. 381 00:28:48.829 --> 00:28:52.230 So, to get back to your question, John, I will often 382 00:28:52.309 --> 00:28:53.950 go in and I will say to the mix ologist, you know, you 383 00:28:55.029 --> 00:28:57.619 guys look like you have an awesome, awesome selection of whiskey and bourbons. 384 00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:00.140 What do you have this new? What do you have that's exciting? What 385 00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:04.420 do you have that's interesting? What should I try? And I generally don't 386 00:29:06.019 --> 00:29:10.730 have mixed drinks. Mixed drink for me as a jack and Coke I get. 387 00:29:10.769 --> 00:29:12.450 If I'm going to drink a bourbon, I like it neat. I 388 00:29:12.609 --> 00:29:17.329 like my bourbon with Bourbon, just like I like my coffee. I like 389 00:29:17.490 --> 00:29:21.490 coffee with coffee and I think putting other I almost set a different word that 390 00:29:21.569 --> 00:29:25.759 begins with S, but I'll say stuff in my bourbon or in my coffee 391 00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:29.799 is somewhat blasphemous. And Look, I know, having spent time in Scotland 392 00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:32.839 and and so forth, there are some experts that say you should really put 393 00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:34.200 a little water in there, a little lice in there, quote unquote, 394 00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:37.519 open it up. I think all that's BS. I like Bourbon. In 395 00:29:37.589 --> 00:29:41.069 my bourbon be good stuff. Yeah, well, it's kind of an interesting 396 00:29:41.109 --> 00:29:44.950 space to watch because it is very, very crowded. If you go to, 397 00:29:45.869 --> 00:29:48.589 you know, a liquor store around here, you'll see literally hundreds of 398 00:29:48.670 --> 00:29:52.539 bourbons on the shelf and so every once in a while you'll see someone who's 399 00:29:52.579 --> 00:29:56.500 trying to kind of reframe that conversation or talk about a different bourbon or a 400 00:29:56.539 --> 00:30:02.180 different blend while still kind of remaining two true to that kind of a heritage 401 00:30:02.180 --> 00:30:03.740 of Bourbon. So it's really interesting to kind of see what ideas stick in 402 00:30:03.819 --> 00:30:07.930 which are just kind of flashes in the Pan. And I love the innovation, 403 00:30:07.049 --> 00:30:11.809 the new category of Whiskey that I love. It's least new to me. 404 00:30:11.849 --> 00:30:14.009 Maybe it's been going on for a while and I didn't notice it. 405 00:30:14.250 --> 00:30:18.089 I'm not I don't follow it super closely, but there is a whiskey that's 406 00:30:18.170 --> 00:30:26.119 made here in the Santa Cruz area called Wayward Whiskey, and I joined their 407 00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:29.759 club and I, you know, get a selection of stuff from them every 408 00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:32.599 quarter and you got to go to their place and pick it up, which 409 00:30:32.599 --> 00:30:34.640 is fun. It's just the other side of town for me and I was 410 00:30:34.750 --> 00:30:41.150 in there a couple weeks ago John and picking up my quarterly drop ship of 411 00:30:41.269 --> 00:30:45.910 Yummy and while I was in there I noticed behind the bar, because they 412 00:30:45.910 --> 00:30:51.259 have a tasting area, they had this very sort of dark ruby, almost 413 00:30:51.460 --> 00:30:56.299 blood ready looking whiskey and I'm sort of trying to read the label. Anyway, 414 00:30:56.460 --> 00:31:02.660 long story longer. It's whiskey that has been aged in pork barrels. 415 00:31:03.059 --> 00:31:07.609 Oh really, and I love port and I love whiskey and I'll tell you, 416 00:31:07.170 --> 00:31:10.730 man, is this ever good. I'm going to buy a case of 417 00:31:10.769 --> 00:31:15.650 it. It is absolutely outstanding. And so right now my favorite go too 418 00:31:15.890 --> 00:31:19.480 is wayward whiskey aged in port barrels. Nice. So does that kind as 419 00:31:19.480 --> 00:31:23.079 a new category of whiskey or is that just differentiation? It's new to me. 420 00:31:23.200 --> 00:31:26.480 I don't know if it if it's if it's been a long standing category. 421 00:31:26.519 --> 00:31:30.000 I had never heard of it, so I'm guessing it's new, but 422 00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:32.799 I can't tell you for sure. But it certainly was new to me. 423 00:31:32.869 --> 00:31:36.869 I hadn't heard of anyone else doing it. And if you start paying attention, 424 00:31:37.390 --> 00:31:41.589 you know you'll start to see new categories all over the place. I 425 00:31:41.789 --> 00:31:44.349 just saw one. Let me see if I can grab it for you quickly. 426 00:31:44.430 --> 00:31:49.740 A new category of Jerky. I was in my favorite local, local 427 00:31:49.779 --> 00:31:55.140 store, local market. Yeah, here it is Auhi Tuna Jerky Strips, 428 00:31:55.740 --> 00:32:01.329 wildcot cut, whole cut island karyaky tuna jerk strips from a company called wildly 429 00:32:01.569 --> 00:32:07.849 responsible. So it's a Hei tuna jerky strips. So there you getting. 430 00:32:07.089 --> 00:32:10.490 I'm getting kind of hungry and thirsty just talking to you on this interviewer talking 431 00:32:10.490 --> 00:32:15.089 about Jerky in Bourbon, Coke Pepsi earlier. Oh, lots of good stuff, 432 00:32:15.089 --> 00:32:17.039 Chris. Thanks so much for all the advice you shared today. I 433 00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:22.440 could probably pick your brain for another few hours, but just what you've shared 434 00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:25.720 so far has been tremendously valuable. If someone wants to get in touch with 435 00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:30.109 you and ask you questions about category, to sign learn more about your work. 436 00:32:30.670 --> 00:32:37.309 What's the best way for them to do that? Lockheadcom, lloc hbadcom, 437 00:32:37.670 --> 00:32:39.670 pockheadcom. Got It all right, Chris. Thanks again. It was 438 00:32:39.869 --> 00:32:43.990 an honor to talk to you. I really appreciate you being on the show. 439 00:32:44.299 --> 00:32:46.539 John, I'm stoked to be with you. Thank you so much pleasure. 440 00:32:51.619 --> 00:32:54.700 We totally get it. We publish a ton of content on this podcast 441 00:32:54.859 --> 00:32:58.930 and it can be a lot to keep up with. That's why we've started 442 00:32:59.009 --> 00:33:02.569 the BB growth big three, a no fluff email that boils down our three 443 00:33:02.690 --> 00:33:07.369 biggest takeaways from an entire week of episodes. Sign up today at Sweet Fish 444 00:33:07.450 --> 00:33:14.200 Mediacom big three. That sweet PHISH MEDIACOM Big Three
