Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hey there, this is James Carberry, founder of sweet fish media and one
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of the cohosts of this show.
For the last year and a half I've
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been working on my very first book. In the book I share the three
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part framework we've used as the foundation
for our growth here at sweetfish. Now
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there are lots of companies that have
raised a bunch of money and have grown
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insanely fast, and we featured a
lot of them here on the show.
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We've decided to bootstrap our business,
which usually equates to pretty slow growth,
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but using the strategy outlined in the
book, we are on pace to be
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one of inks fastest growing companies in
two thousand and twenty. The book is
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called content based networking, how to
instantly connect with anyone you want to know.
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If you're a fan of audio books
like me, you can find the
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book on audible, or if you
like physical books, you can also find
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it on Amazon. Just search content
based networking or James Carberry, car be
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a ARY, inaudible or Amazon and
it should pop right up. All right,
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let's get into the show. Hey, everybody, Logan with sweet fish
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here, as we've been doing all
month long. We're rounding out our countdown
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of the top twenty episodes of two
thousand and nineteen. Coming in at number
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two is the first in a two
part series we did with Christopher lockhead within
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the category creation series here on BB
growth. Along with ABM, category creation
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was one of those common themes that
we heard throughout two thousand and nineteen.
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We hope you enjoyed this and stay
tuned tomorrow for the second part of this
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series as we reach number one on
the top twenty episodes of two thousand and
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nineteen. To get more episodes coming
up in the countdown. Make sure you're
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subscribed to the show in apple podcast
or wherever you do you're listening. You
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can also check out the full list
at Sweetish Mediacom blog. Just look for
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the Hashtag Best of two thousand and
nineteen in the categories on the right hand
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side of that page. Hi Everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
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Category Creation Series on the BDB growth
show. I'm John rugie. To kick
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off this twelve episode in the category
creation series, I have just three words
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for you. Follow your different that's
what our guest Christopher Lockhead, wants us
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to think about when approaching category design. Now, if you don't know about
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Chris, you absolutely should. Not
only has he written the book that every
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aspiring category designer needs to read,
called a play bigger, but he's also
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the host of a top thirty rated
podcast, a number one Amazon best selling
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author and a former three time silicon
valley CMO with at least one IPO to
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his name. Chris is also an
advisors to over fifty venture back startups.
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Wow, not only is Chris Super
Accomplished, but he's an ultra nice guy
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and we had a really fun conversation. Now, Chris's Advice on category design
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is pretty extensive, so we've broken
his interview into two parts. This is
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part one, and here's what you're
going to learn from Chris in the next
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thirty minutes. Number one, why
Chris thinks category design is at marketing superpower.
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Number two, why the category kings
tend to capture seventy six percent of
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a marcus economics on average, and
number three, what the three pillars of
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a legendary company are. Sound good, then let's fire up part one of
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our interview with Chris Lockhett. Chris, welcome to the show today. So
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great that you could be with me
today. John, thank you for having
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me on I'm stoked to be here. Yeah, yea. You know,
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as a student of category design,
just getting to interview you is is pretty
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humbling. It's a huge honor and
just yeah, I can't thank you know
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for taking the time to be with
me. Well, I can't thank you
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enough for having me. And I'm
a student of category design to well,
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I think it's safe to say that
you're a little bit further ahead of me,
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but you know, we've got a
lot of talk about in that in
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that regard. But you know,
before we dive into things, I got
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to ask you, Chris. You're
at this book with a few others called
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play bigger, and one of the
authors described you as the Bruce Willis of
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CMOS, or like the Bruce Willis
if you were a Cmo and the die
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hard movie. So I would ask
you, is that your superhero? Is
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that your action hero of choice,
or that kind of thrust upon you?
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It's funny. I forgot that.
Yeah, Kevin Mayne wrote that, which
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is very fun I guess. I
mean my superhero as a kid and even
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today, is an adult that I
related to more. Was Always Batman,
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and Bruce Willis was not, was
not famous when I was a kid,
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but it's hard not to love,
particularly the first die hard movie. You
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haven't gotten any glass in your feet
in your marketing career, though I hope
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you know I've gotten a lot of
glass of my feet in my marketing career
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and I've had a lot of people
shoot at me and call me names and
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try to kill me and wish ill
upon me. So I relate to that
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part of it and I've left a
lot of blood, sweat and tears on
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the on the marketing start up battlefield, so to speak. Right well,
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you know, speaking of blood,
sweat and tears, you've you've built a
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major consulting company called science during thecom
boom. I think you went hired a
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couple thousand people in just three years. Helps later, you help reposition macromedia
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before Dobie made that acquisition, and
you even turned software company called Mercury Interactive
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from a one billion dollar company to
a five billion dollar company. So maybe
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to give us some context for the
interview today, can you just give me
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a little bit more about your your
thirty years of marketing experience and have that
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brought you to where yard today?
Sure so, as you said, you
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know, I've done three tours of
duty as a public company, tech,
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a CMO in Silicon Valley, and
I got started pretty early on John I
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got thrown out of school at eighteen
for failing out and being stupid, and
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so I, like a lot of
entrepreneurs, you know, for me entrepreneurship
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was not away up in the world
necessarily, but a way out, you
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know, a way out of a
life of struggle. And I think for
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a lot of US entrepreneurs we start
a company because it's no one else will
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bet on our future, because there's
no evidence that betting on us makes any
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sense at all. And so,
you know, in a lot of ways
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entrepreneurship is a way to bet on
yourself. And so I very early on
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bet on myself and started my first
company at Eighteen, and then by the
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time I was twenty eight I was
here in Silicon Valley and I was ahead
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of marketing for a publicly traded software
company, of firm called the Phanto at
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the time and, you know,
just onward and upward since then. And
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then at by thirty eight, after
we sold mercury to Hewlett pack or,
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you know, I just decided it
was time to hang them up and front.
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Since then I've been doing some advisor
board consulting type stuff and then,
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as you know, most recently in
the last couple years, have kind of
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reinvented myself as an author and a
podcaster. Yeah, and you've written a
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couple books that are pretty widely circulated, at least among the crab that I
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speak to, niche down and play
bigger. Can you give me quick can
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I run down of those two?
Yeah, the both books are about this
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concept, this new strategy and business
called category design and play. Bigger is
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more for, if you want to
think of them this way, biggie entrepreneurs,
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that is to say, I raise
a bunch of money, I'm trying
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to grow really fast, I'm trying
to design a new category that that I
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can dominate and become the next Cisco, Google or Cole Facebook, except.
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And then my second book, Niche
Down, is about the same concept of
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category design, but applied to,
if you will, a Smiley Entrepreneur.
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I just opened a pizza parlor,
or I'm a flower shop, or I'm
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a restaurant or, as we have
here in I live in Santa Cruz California,
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we seem to have a new craft
group hub opening every fifteen minutes in
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town. So for those entrepreneurs who, you know, save up a little
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bit of money, maybe borrow a
little bit of money from their uncle Steve
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or whatever, and on her hanging
out of shingle. So niche down is
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for smallly entreprenurs. Hain't a category
and play biggers for biggie entrepreneurs and how
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they can do the same thing.
Okay, yeah, so you've written two
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books. You've had a pretty long
marketing career, louts of different experiences,
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and I believe you have been referred
to this kind of a sense in the
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marketing space. Said how you describe
yourself for a week iy, something else,
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Chris. Well, some people have
pejorative things to call me, but
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I mean, look, I don't
know that. That's for other people to
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decide. I'm I'm a guy who, like a lot of marketers, like
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a lot entrepreneurs, you know,
got into business because it was a way
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for me to bet on my future
when nobody else would, and so I
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had nothing to lose. And I've
learned a lot of things along the way,
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some from reading, some from mental
tours and, of course, a
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lot from trial and error. And
you know, so look, I think
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I'm just like a lot of marketers, you know, we get out there
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in the world and we're trying to
design and dominate new categories and build great
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companies. And I love technology,
you know, and I came to Silicon
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Valley from Canada and, like a
lot of immigrants, you know, Silicon
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Valley has been an amazing place for
me. And so the a ha though
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for me in this regard, John, is, you know, my whole
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career I was the youngest guy in
the room, you know, because I
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started at eighteen. I was the
CMO of a public company a two thousand
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and twenty eight and I never thought
I would be doing anything other than that,
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you know, being the guy who
is working hard, sixty to eighty
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hours a week, traveling all over
the place. He used to travel to
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the four hundred thousand miles a year. And you know, I was the
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upandcoming guy, right. Yeah,
and sort of the interesting thing is you
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get to a place in your career
where you wake up one day and you
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go, Oh, you're not the
upandcoming guy anymore, you're now the been
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there, done that guy. And
so I'm a been there, done that
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guy and of course, I'm still
trying to learn, you know, just
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like you, I'm a category design
student. Yeah, well, so real
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quick, just to give us more
context, best moment as a marketer?
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Worst moment as a marketer? HMM, you know, I've had so many
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best moments as a marketer. You
know, look that you can't you can't
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beat going public, standing there at
Nasdak pushing a button, you know,
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as I got to do it scient
and you know, I joined that company
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as the founding CMO. We were
thirty something people and you know, we
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got to well over twozero people and
we designed it dominated a space and that's
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incredibly exciting, and so experiences like
that are amazing. That mercury we got
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into a massive amount of trouble and
our stock cratered and we had to fire
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our CEO, CFO and general counsel
in one day and the whole company almost
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blew up. And that happened in
November and our stock went from the mid
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s to the low S and it
was incredibly challenging. And then fast forward
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to June July of the next year, we sold the company to Hewlett Packard
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for five billion dollars. That was
a pretty good day. And then I'll
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tell you. You know, as
a kid with no education, who essens
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we got? I guess as we
got thrown out of high school. I'm
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dyslexic and have some number of these
other learning differences. To sit there and
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be the first authors to launch a
book at NAS DEC on Facebook live in
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front of almost half a million people
in the NASDEC recording studios and Time Square.
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You know that that was an amazing
experience. And the other one today,
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that's probably maybe a little less dramatic
than that, but it's rare for
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me today, John, to go
a day without somebody sending me an email
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or a tweet or a linkedin or
something saying that one of my books or
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one of my podcasts made a difference
for them in their life. And and
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that maybe isn't quite the big thrill
of hitting the Naz deck button or becoming
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a number one best seller, but
when you get to the stage of life
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that I'm at, you know all
I really want to do today, John,
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is have a very good time and
make a very big difference, and
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so it's insanely rewarding knowing that other
people say I'm making a difference for them
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and their careers and in their business
and the fact that you know somebody lets
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me know that on a pretty regular
basis. That's probably the greatest reward that
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I could I could imagine for having
a thirty year career like I've had.
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Absolutely I can. I can imagine
that and hopefully after we share this episode
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you'll get a few more of those
emails and phone calls kind of thanking you
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for your expertise. And you know
you've talked about category design. Your books
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are on that kind of thought process. So maybe to kind of dive into
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that topic a little bit further.
Just kind of start us off by telling
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us what category design is and why
should marketers and entrepreneurs care about it?
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Yeah, so it's you know,
my writing partner Kevin Maney, says that
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category design is a new Lens on
business and once you have the Lens you
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have really, I think, an
unfair competitive advantage. I don't know if
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you if you saw the movie taken
with Liam Neeson. No, I haven't.
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It's a great movie about a guy
who's a former I don't know if
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he's Seia, but he's, you
know, he's a former badass black ops
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kind of a guy and and these
these bad guys kidnap his daughter. There's
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a scene in the movie where he's
on the phone with the bad guys and
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he says then they say they want
a lot of money to get his daughter
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back and he says, look,
I don't have a lot of money,
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but what I do have is a
very special set of skills, skills honed
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over a long career, that make
me a really big problem for people like
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you. And so I think category
design is a very special set of skills
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that, for marketers and entrepreneurs,
give them an unfair competitive advantage. And
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here's why. Most people believe in
it unchallenged way, that the best product
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wins. Most people believe that if
we can expose the world to our product
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or our service that we're going to
win. And most people sort of treat
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the market like they treat the weather. Right, so you wake up in
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the morning and I say, well, what's the weather going to be in
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northern California today? It's going to
be sunny, it's going to be this,
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it's going to be that, and
they treat the market like it is
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the way that it is. And
the first big Aha is that categories markets
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behave the way they do because somebody
designed them that way, either on accident
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or intentionally. And I'll give you
a simple example. If you take a
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big step back and start thinking about
well, why is it that this is
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the way that it is in our
space, a simple example that I can
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relate to is in the United States
of America, a high end pair of
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sunglasses is about three to four hundred
dollars and a pretty good medium sized flat
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screen TV at Costco is a hundred
and fifty to two hundred and fifty dollars.
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Now, if you are an alien
and somebody said you hey, John,
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there's this one category of products that
is a piece of plastic that you
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put on your eyes to make you
less sensitive to the sun, and then
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there's this other category of products that
is a technological marvel that talks to satellites
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in space and delivers, you know, a hundred thousand channels, or certainly
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feels that way, of News and
information and entertainment. which category of product
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is four hundred bucks and which category
of Product is two hundred and fifty bucks?
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Most people would say, well,
it must be the technological marvel that
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talks to satellites in space, when, of course, it's not sure.
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And so category design is really about
why our categories the way they are?
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Who set it up and, most
importantly, what problem and therefore what solution
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matters. And the big hoges like
this. The company that designs the category
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is best position and to dominate it
and in play bigger. We did a
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big data science research project orianalyzed every
venture back technology start up bounded in the
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United States from two thousand to two
thousand and fifteen, and we asked the
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data set what percentage of total value
created in any given category goes to the
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market leader, or what you could
think of, is the category Queen of
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the Category King? And it turns
out the answer to that question, and
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we wrote an article for the hbr
about this, is seventy six percent.
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So two thirds of the economics in
any given market category goes to the category
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Queen. And so what's my point? The A high is most of US
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embark on a battle of competition.
Legends don't do that. Legends proactively position
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themselves as different and unique and design
a new way of thinking about a problem
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and therefore a solution that meaningfully advantages
them and is a meaningful disadvantage to anybody
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that comes after them. And so
the big Aha is the most legendary marketers,
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the most legendary CEOS, the most
legendary company founders and, frankly,
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the people in the world that make
the biggest difference. We could talk about
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how this plays outside of business,
if you want. Are the ones that
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do three things. One, they
design a legendary product, to they design
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a legendary company and three, and
this is the part that most people don't
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get, they design a legendary category
and when they do that, they proactively
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position themselves to be the company that
takes two thirds of the economics. So
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what play bigger is about, what
niche down is about, is this discipline
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of category design trying to unpack what
are the things that the most legendary leaders
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in business history have done, intuitively, to teach the world how to think
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differently. And when the world agrees
with the way you think, Byam they
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literally line up in front of your
building to get whatever it is that you're
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selling. And fundamentally that's what category
designs about. So you talked about those
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three kind of pillars coming together roughly
the same time. A great company,
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a great product and a great category, and I think those first two.
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There's a lot of literature around at
a design great products. There's a time
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around company culture and how to design
a great team, but it seems like
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the topic of category design, it's
not really been talked about in depth as
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much as there's other kind of two
pillars that you mentioned. Why do you
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think that's the case, Chris?
Because I think that we live in a
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world where we get taught that the
most legendary entrepreneurs, the most legendary companies
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are innovators. Right. Christensen wrote
the INNOVATOR's dilemma, and what most people
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here when they hear that is product
innovation. Right. So you ask most
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people why did apple beat blackberry,
most people are going to say well,
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you know, the iphone is just
a way better product, and so that's
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where everybody focuses. And what I
would say to you is the statement the
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IPHONE is a better product is a
an interpretation. Be Not true, because
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it's an interpretation, you know,
to quote the Big Lebowski that's just like
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your opinion man. Right. So
an objective measurement it's not. And so
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what category design asks is, how
do you teach the world to see things
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the way you do? So if
you are, if you are research in
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motion, and you were, I
guess, if you could go back in
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time and kind of lead that company, what would you have done differently than
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to kind of position the blackberry as
that category King, and sorry, the
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category King, and to kind of
position any apples or other efforts as kind
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of a secondary player within that space? Yes, so the category King or
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Queen Stays in their position as long
as the world agrees with the definition of
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the problem in the solution. And
so blackberries problem was they did not continue
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to evangelize the ray zone detra for
the blackberry or said in a different way
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when the definition, when the design
of the smartphone category was it's a mobile,
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untethered device whose primary you this case, is email and phone. Then
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the blackberry one, when the design
of the category gets changed, that is
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to say the RFP for what most
people agree a smartphone is, moves from
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the blackberry definition to a definition called, oh, it's a magical star trek
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like device that has all these APPs. If you remember, in the beginning
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what made the iphone go, they
had this mantra that they use. They
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said, oh, there's an APP
for that, right. And so when
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it became about APPs, not about
email. They were done and so they
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lost not just a product battle,
but the truth is the main thing lost
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was a battle for what the definition
of a smartphone was, and when enough
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people agreed with apple, it was
over. And, in point of fact,
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as far as I'm concerned, for
email, the blackberry was and still
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is the better device. And I'm
a I'm a big guy, I have
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big hands and using a tactile keyboard
that I can feel with my thumbs is
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a much more effective way to do
email than using a non tactile device where
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I would say probably one in four
times when I hit a letter with my
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thumb it's the wrong letter. And
that I was so in other words,
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from if the use case is email, blackberry crushes the iphone. But jobs
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and apple got the world to interpret
what a smartphone should be as something meaningfully,
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and I'm going to use this word
on purpose John, different than what
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the definition was before, and when
enough people agreed with there what I would
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call category design of what a smartphone
is, Bam it was over. And
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at that point there was nothing blackberry
could have done. So, if someone
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was listening to you, kind of
lay at those two examples and they are
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little skeptical. They might say something
like well, those are consumer products and
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there's so much advertising and marketing and
they're deserving such mass markets that it's it
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doesn't really apply. People don't buy
phones based on speeds and fees. They
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buy for emotional reasons. It's kind
of a aspirational purchase, you know,
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for an Iphone, especially when they're, you know, nearing a thousand dollars.
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But again it's skeptical. Person might
say, well, but in the
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BB space people are more rational,
they are doing product research, they have,
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you know, committees who are buying
these these products and services and there
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are taking a more thorough, objective, kind of measured look at what the
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capabilities of each product is. Now
I know how you're going to tell me
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that's not true, but I want
to hear why that's the case and why
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that skepticism is kind of unfounded.
Well, the first thing I'd say is,
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if you think that be to be
products are purchased based on any kind
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of analytics, any kind of objective
RFP process, your eft. You're finished,
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because it turns out there's no difference
between the way human beings by consumer
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products and be tob products and you
could set up the biggest evaluation committee you
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want. Those evaluation committees are put
in place to justify the emotional decision that
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is already been made, and if
you don't think that's true, you're not
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going to have a very long or
successful career in be to be marketing.
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That's just the reality of it,
and I know that might sound harsh,
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but I've been doing this for thirty
years. And here's the Aha. In
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every RFP situation, who would you
rather be? The company responding to the
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RFP or the company that helped the
company that? Excuse me, that the
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vendor who helped the customer write the
RFP, because there's no such thing as
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an RFP that isn't meaningfully influenced by
the agenda of a vendor of one sort
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or another, and that's because people
already decide what they want to buy and
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then they use the RFP pro ascess
to justify it and share. Are There
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Times where there's a frontrunner and the
folks on the buying side think they're going
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to buy from company A and they
end up buying from company B? Sure,
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but that probably happens less than ten
percent of the time. They already
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know when the cycle begins. That's
the first piece. The second piece is
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what category design is really about.
It's about writing the RFP for the space.
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You're telling everybody if you want to
buy, you know, this type
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of product or service, this is
what you should be looking for. So,
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for example, Mark Benny off is
arguably the greatest category designer of the
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last twenty years in the B tob
space. When he started he was exactly
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the opposite of where the entire technology
space was at the time. He said,
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don't buy it, rent it and
don't run it in your data center,
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run it in our data center and
just put your data about your customers
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and your and your salespeople in your
forecast on our servers and will take care
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of that for you. That was
a hundred eighty degrees away from where the
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category was. That man singlehandedly made
the cloud happen because he taught the world
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how to think about computing in a
completely new way and he designed a new
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category. He changed, he moved
the world from the way it was to
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the way he wanted it to be. And that's what legendary category designers do
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and that's what legendary people do.
On a sale by sale basis and if
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you're really smart, you move the
entire market category from where it is to
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the way you want it to be. And that's what was required. And
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you can compete on speeds and feeds
all you want, but if somebody else
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has tilted the design tilted the agenda, has a, and I mean you
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say these words on purpose, different
point point of view about what you're what
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the carboningulator space should be, you
will be blackberry, not apple, and
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that's just the truth and the data
supports it. Two thirds of the economics
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go to one company. That's been
validated by the Harvard Business Review. And
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Look, you can deny that all
you want, and I wish you a
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lot of luck, but you're probably
going to burn a lot of money and
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you're probably going to cause yourself a
lot of hard a living inside that paradigm.
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And if that's what you want to
go do, then you know you
359
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can go bang your head into that
wall and legendary entrepreneurs will be busy designing
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what what we call the Magic Triangle, getting product company in category right.
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So you talked about this idea of
designing a category and the economics of that
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and all the reasons why that's worth
pursuing. So what does that process look
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like? You've been to this a
few times yourself, having you over fifty.
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Yeah, yeah, so what does
that kind of look like? We
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don't need to go through like a
step by step, you know, a
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to Z, but like what are
some of the big pieces that have to
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happen for category designed to actually be
something that you're doing successfully? So the
368
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first question to ask yourself is what
makes me, either as an individual in
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your career, or me as a
company, or us, if as a
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company, depending on how you want
to think about it. So what makes
371
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us different? And specifically, how
do I think about a problem and therefore
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a solution in a different way?
And so, for example, there's this
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company called go Joe Industries and they
are the creators of a new category of
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soap that emerged about fifty years ago. Before that there was just what today
375
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we call bar soap, and they
thought that was gross because it's nasty and
376
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I could be full of hair and
full of dirt, and so they reimagine
377
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the problem called how do I clean
my hands without having to deal with a
378
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Yucky, gross bar of soap,
and go Joe Industries therefore created liquid soap,
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a new category of soap, and
then repositioned, as a result of
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that, traditional soap as hand soap
or bar soap. Fast forward to the
381
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mid S, many decades after they
had done that. By staying focused on
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the problem, that is to say, how do I want to think about
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cleaning my hands, they tilted the
agenda one more time. They said,
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HMM, the problem with liquid soap
is I need water. So how do
385
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I wash my hands? How do
I get my hands clean with in the
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absence of water? and Go Joe
Industries created a product that we now all
387
00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:41.119
know called Purel and a new category
called hand sanitizer. And that was in
388
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the mid to late Hind Hes,
and it prior to the mid to late
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S. nobody was walking around going
hey, John, I got this big
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problem called hand sanitization. Nobody thought
about that, nobody zero. There was
391
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no there was no box on the
wall of every hospital in the world was
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squeezy stuff coming out of it to
rub on your hands. There were there
393
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were no mom's walking around with strollers
with a tub of this stuff that they
394
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bathe their baby and any time today
right. And so my point is this
395
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go Joe Industries, by continuously focusing
on the problem called how do I clean
396
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my hands, and how do I
clean my hands in what you and I
397
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today would call multiple use case situations, have continuously done category design around their
398
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product innovation, and now there's not
a parent in the world that wouldn't have
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this stuff on them to clean their
baby right and so that's really the point.
400
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The point is legendary companies stay focused
on the problem, stay focused on
401
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how they want to address problems in
different ways, and when the world sees
402
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the problem the way they do,
then the world wants the solution and the
403
00:29:48.470 --> 00:29:56.859
big marketing a HA is. They
don't market their product. Legends market the
404
00:29:56.220 --> 00:30:02.619
problem because they understand the bigger,
the more urgent, the more strategic the
405
00:30:02.700 --> 00:30:07.059
problem, more time, money and
energy people will apply to solving that problem.
406
00:30:07.369 --> 00:30:10.329
And if you're the company setting that
agenda with what you could think of
407
00:30:10.410 --> 00:30:12.650
as a point of view, then
you're going to be the company that is
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00:30:12.769 --> 00:30:17.650
the category designer. And if you
can pull off all three components, product,
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00:30:17.690 --> 00:30:21.089
company in category at the same time, Bam. That's how you get
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to be Cisco. That's how you
get to be what's APP that's how you
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get to be go Joe Industry.
Okay, well, that reps up part
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one of our conversation with Chris lockhead. If you enjoyed learning from Chris,
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00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:37.509
then you absolutely need to look at
for part two, because when we come
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back we'll hear Chris tell us why
he believes Pepsi's attempt to unseat Coke as
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00:30:41.829 --> 00:30:45.990
the category king is one of the
dumbest marketing efforts ever. Will Hear What
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00:30:47.150 --> 00:30:51.099
Picasso can teach marketers about the importance
of being different, and we'll hear a
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00:30:51.140 --> 00:30:55.140
Chris explain why trying to convince people
that you are better than something else can
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actually work against you. Thanks for
listening today. I'm John Rougie and I'll
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00:30:59.579 --> 00:31:02.980
see you back here shortly for part
two of our interview with Chris Blockhead.
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00:31:06.329 --> 00:31:10.529
We totally get it. We publish
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00:31:10.650 --> 00:31:12.730
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00:31:12.809 --> 00:31:18.680
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