Brand Vs Branding - The Debate with Sam Moss & Dan Sanchez

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:00.250 Mhm 2 00:00:04.740 --> 00:00:08.730 Welcome back to BBB Growth. I'm dan Sanchez with Sweet fish Media and today 3 00:00:08.730 --> 00:00:13.810 I'm here with Sam Moss, who is the co founder of one click agency. Sam, 4 00:00:13.820 --> 00:00:18.590 welcome to the show. Hey, thanks man. A longtime listener. I think I met James 5 00:00:18.590 --> 00:00:22.640 probably like a year and a half ago we had him on our podcast and have been 6 00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:25.260 following you guys ever since. So I appreciate you guys reaching out to 7 00:00:25.260 --> 00:00:29.790 have me on the school. That's awesome. It's always good to have listeners on 8 00:00:29.790 --> 00:00:34.550 the show. But you posted something on linkedin that got me thinking and I'm 9 00:00:34.550 --> 00:00:38.830 like, oh I need to have Sam onto the show because I have a different point 10 00:00:38.830 --> 00:00:41.440 of view and I love to have people on the show where we have just like 11 00:00:41.440 --> 00:00:45.250 different points of view on a topic to have a I guess you could call it a 12 00:00:45.250 --> 00:00:49.130 debate. It's more like a friendly conversation. Almost always it ends up 13 00:00:49.130 --> 00:00:52.430 somewhere in the middle, but I like to have it on anyway because it challenges 14 00:00:52.430 --> 00:00:55.430 me as a marketer to talk to people who have a different perspective on topics 15 00:00:55.430 --> 00:01:00.470 and today that topic is around brand and branding. You posted on linkedin? 16 00:01:00.470 --> 00:01:05.200 Like branding is these things, brand are these things. And before we go into 17 00:01:05.200 --> 00:01:09.000 the graphic SAm, I'd love to kick it off, we're kind of like what is a brand, 18 00:01:09.000 --> 00:01:12.680 Like just start real broad for the audience, what what do you consider a 19 00:01:12.680 --> 00:01:17.160 brand and then we can jump into the difference between brand and branding. 20 00:01:17.740 --> 00:01:22.140 Yeah, I would, I guess if I were to sum it up into a sentence, I would say that 21 00:01:22.140 --> 00:01:27.420 brand is the emotional connection that you have with your buyers. So it's what 22 00:01:27.420 --> 00:01:32.100 they think of you and how they think of you and how they feel when they hear 23 00:01:32.100 --> 00:01:36.750 your name or come across a post on social media or whatever it may be. I'd 24 00:01:36.750 --> 00:01:40.110 say that sounds about right to me. It's always it's a little bit more than 25 00:01:40.110 --> 00:01:43.990 reputation because reputation has like a personal thing to it. It's kind of 26 00:01:43.990 --> 00:01:48.620 like, oh he has a reputation of this, you know, and it could be good, could 27 00:01:48.620 --> 00:01:52.720 be bad. It's a few words, it's usually like, oh yeah, she's got a reputation 28 00:01:52.720 --> 00:01:58.420 of being being super friendly, right? And a brand is a little bit more. Again, 29 00:01:58.420 --> 00:02:02.990 I like how you add the word emotional to it. So well, reputation plays a part 30 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:06.740 for sure. I would say that. I mean whether good or bad, but yeah, there is 31 00:02:06.740 --> 00:02:10.710 way more to it. And I think that the reputation comes alongside a lot of 32 00:02:10.710 --> 00:02:15.050 other things. But reputation plays into the emotional connection you have 33 00:02:15.440 --> 00:02:19.500 because if you have a bad reputation then what happens when they think of 34 00:02:19.500 --> 00:02:23.630 you, it's gonna be a not good emotional feeling like like why would I want to 35 00:02:23.630 --> 00:02:27.850 do business for them because of the X. So that's how I would look at it and on 36 00:02:27.850 --> 00:02:31.850 one side of the graphic we have all the activities labeled or associated with 37 00:02:31.850 --> 00:02:36.010 brand. One of which is the reputation of your company. What are some of the 38 00:02:36.010 --> 00:02:40.640 other ones you have graphic? So I had the reputation I have what people 39 00:02:40.650 --> 00:02:44.560 externally think of you. Like I just mentioned like in conversation what 40 00:02:44.560 --> 00:02:47.620 goes through their mind when they hear about you outside the context of 41 00:02:47.620 --> 00:02:53.400 business, how you treat your customers, the community that you've built among 42 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:56.940 your buyers. A lot of companies are starting to do this and it's a 43 00:02:56.940 --> 00:03:00.840 community and a brand built around them and the graphic was actually too small 44 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:03.200 to fit another one. But I think a really, really important one that I 45 00:03:03.200 --> 00:03:06.200 would have, it's like should have probably been on there. But the culture 46 00:03:06.200 --> 00:03:10.210 that you internally have as a team. I think that goes a long way when it 47 00:03:10.210 --> 00:03:14.290 comes to brand because I think of some companies because of their culture and 48 00:03:14.290 --> 00:03:17.540 not because of even their product necessarily. I think wow that looks 49 00:03:17.540 --> 00:03:21.240 like such an attractive company because of how they treat their their employees. 50 00:03:21.250 --> 00:03:23.660 So that's that's on the brand side of the graphic 51 00:03:24.940 --> 00:03:29.730 and I think that just is like a greater depth of the outside culture. You know, 52 00:03:29.730 --> 00:03:33.570 it's the outside culture is good when the inside culture is kind of like, I 53 00:03:33.570 --> 00:03:36.710 don't know when it's radiating out from the center rather than it just being a 54 00:03:36.710 --> 00:03:41.550 facade your agency came up with right? When it's coming from the inside now 55 00:03:41.560 --> 00:03:45.050 everything you put in the brand is generally what I agree with on what a 56 00:03:45.050 --> 00:03:50.370 brand is branding on the other hand is is, in my opinion, how you get to a 57 00:03:50.370 --> 00:03:54.320 brand. But what you had on your list is very different from what I had on my 58 00:03:54.320 --> 00:03:58.220 list. So tell us first what you had on your list and then I'll share what we 59 00:03:58.220 --> 00:04:02.830 had on what I would put on my list and then we'll kind of compare notes. Yeah, 60 00:04:02.840 --> 00:04:06.460 So I would consider this is and honestly we might simply just be having 61 00:04:06.460 --> 00:04:10.870 a play on words. So I'm curious to hear your side of this argument in a way. So 62 00:04:10.880 --> 00:04:14.980 I would consider Brandon to be the visual aspect of your company, right? 63 00:04:14.980 --> 00:04:22.210 So I had on my list, your logo, your website, the colors you use, the fonts 64 00:04:22.220 --> 00:04:27.350 style that you have even done trendy swag and then cool graphics that you 65 00:04:27.350 --> 00:04:31.120 post. Like those are all things that I feel are visual and therefore they 66 00:04:31.120 --> 00:04:35.420 don't necessarily fall into the brand category, but they're in the branding 67 00:04:35.420 --> 00:04:38.660 side and I feel like they needed a name because a lot of people will say, yeah, 68 00:04:38.660 --> 00:04:41.550 we're working on branding and then they go out and they try to build a 69 00:04:41.550 --> 00:04:44.980 community and I'm like, I think branding is something else. So that's 70 00:04:44.980 --> 00:04:48.140 how I would define it and I'm curious to hear what you think about that. So, 71 00:04:48.150 --> 00:04:51.100 and again, there's there's definitions in terms floating around here and we 72 00:04:51.100 --> 00:04:56.150 might just organize them differently. But to me, the brand is the outcome, 73 00:04:56.540 --> 00:05:01.610 right? The branding is all the work you do to achieve the outcome, to achieve 74 00:05:01.610 --> 00:05:05.290 the reputation you want, how to get people to think about you in the way 75 00:05:05.290 --> 00:05:09.450 you would want them to think about you, all those things. And to me, branding 76 00:05:09.450 --> 00:05:13.850 is more, I'd say the visuals and everything you put is a small portion, 77 00:05:13.860 --> 00:05:16.810 I'd almost put it like an iceberg, you're talking about the things that 78 00:05:16.810 --> 00:05:21.270 are the tip of the iceberg, the logo, the website, the colors and the visuals, 79 00:05:21.270 --> 00:05:26.420 specifically the videos is all the tip of the iceberg. And I think that's 80 00:05:26.420 --> 00:05:30.830 where a lot of people start and that's and sometimes if you start with those 81 00:05:30.830 --> 00:05:35.770 things, you end up with very shallow brands high, it has all of those things, 82 00:05:35.770 --> 00:05:41.460 Hyatt Hotels, but no one really thinks of high it being a great brand. So when 83 00:05:41.460 --> 00:05:45.520 I think of branding, I think of things that are like your beliefs, what are 84 00:05:45.520 --> 00:05:49.960 your beliefs that make you weird? Right? What are the beliefs and things that 85 00:05:49.960 --> 00:05:53.470 you know are true and the things that you believe about the world, the things 86 00:05:53.470 --> 00:05:56.210 that you believe about, how to treat customers and things that you believe 87 00:05:56.220 --> 00:06:00.080 should always be true about the product or never true about the product, What 88 00:06:00.080 --> 00:06:05.810 are the beliefs about your brand that are just different and it's not a value 89 00:06:05.810 --> 00:06:08.550 proposition, beliefs aren't a positioning statement though. I think 90 00:06:08.550 --> 00:06:12.820 your position of course in your market and your mission should all play into 91 00:06:12.820 --> 00:06:16.260 those beliefs sometimes your core values are in your beliefs, right? You 92 00:06:16.260 --> 00:06:19.640 talked about it being internal, so almost start like at the very center at 93 00:06:19.640 --> 00:06:25.280 all his beliefs and then from those beliefs come a message about how you, 94 00:06:25.280 --> 00:06:28.930 it's almost like the wordsmithing of the beliefs. It could, that's where 95 00:06:28.930 --> 00:06:33.160 your slogans come from. That's where your, your phrases, your thought 96 00:06:33.160 --> 00:06:38.150 leadership, your names like chris walker talks about the dark funnel that 97 00:06:38.150 --> 00:06:42.840 would be messaging, right? It comes from the beliefs that message is spread 98 00:06:42.840 --> 00:06:47.380 through places where you can't track and the best ones do right from there. 99 00:06:47.390 --> 00:06:52.420 I add like a shared enemy anti believer, some people call it the villain. I 100 00:06:52.420 --> 00:06:56.490 almost feel like a good branding work is actually defining who you stand 101 00:06:56.490 --> 00:07:00.580 against and it's not necessarily a competitor, It could be like a way of 102 00:07:00.580 --> 00:07:05.430 doing things like sweet fish, we hate boring stuff, right, That could be a 103 00:07:05.430 --> 00:07:08.270 villain or actually, no, we're coming up with commodity content is kind of 104 00:07:08.270 --> 00:07:12.460 something we've been playing around as a villain we are, that is our villain 105 00:07:12.460 --> 00:07:16.360 that were attacking and standing up against. I also think rituals play a 106 00:07:16.360 --> 00:07:20.440 role into it. So that's to think like, you know, Dave Ramsey is a brand that 107 00:07:20.440 --> 00:07:24.560 has a ritual. If you're familiar with Dave Ramsey and his radio show, he has 108 00:07:24.560 --> 00:07:29.320 people come in and do the debt free Scream, that is a ritual that everybody 109 00:07:29.320 --> 00:07:33.130 in his brand knows about and some have partaken, they have traveled to the 110 00:07:33.130 --> 00:07:37.620 place and the pilgrimage to Dave Ramsey's, you know studio and done the 111 00:07:37.620 --> 00:07:41.780 debt free Scream live. That is a ritual in his brand. And then on top of the 112 00:07:41.780 --> 00:07:45.930 iceberg are the icons, essentially all the branding work I think about that 113 00:07:45.930 --> 00:07:49.270 you've said are like the tip of the iceberg after you've done all those 114 00:07:49.270 --> 00:07:53.740 other things, then you have something to really, it's like that all the 115 00:07:53.740 --> 00:07:57.160 visual work and have teeth to it because it has substance to it from all 116 00:07:57.160 --> 00:08:00.850 the beliefs and messaging and the villain, the rituals may be a leader. 117 00:08:01.340 --> 00:08:05.300 So when I think of branding, I think about all those things defining all 118 00:08:05.300 --> 00:08:09.580 those things before you get to the visuals now, how does that hit you? 119 00:08:09.580 --> 00:08:13.470 Does that come across as like, yes, those are good things, but or do you 120 00:08:13.470 --> 00:08:17.310 define it differently? Honestly, I'm almost like, I feel like there should 121 00:08:17.310 --> 00:08:21.820 be a third section to this. Like if the graphic right, has this line down the 122 00:08:21.820 --> 00:08:25.190 middle branding versus brand and I feel like a lot of the things you described 123 00:08:25.200 --> 00:08:30.560 are a combination of narrative and positioning, Would you agree with that? 124 00:08:30.940 --> 00:08:35.340 No, I'd say they're they're different actually, I play around with this kind 125 00:08:35.340 --> 00:08:37.690 of stuff all the time and I have a little bit of a tool that I've been 126 00:08:37.690 --> 00:08:43.929 using called the brand sandbox and I feel like the strategic narrative is 127 00:08:43.940 --> 00:08:47.690 upper level. Like you can have a strong strategic narrative and the beliefs 128 00:08:47.690 --> 00:08:51.060 play into it. But let's let's look at like chris walker since he has a pretty 129 00:08:51.060 --> 00:08:55.880 well fleshed out brand and most the audience is familiar with him. Like he 130 00:08:55.880 --> 00:09:01.720 has a lot of beliefs that don't that don't include his origin story, right? 131 00:09:01.730 --> 00:09:06.580 His strategic narrative was like at least his origin stories. I was an 132 00:09:06.580 --> 00:09:09.590 engineer and then I started troubleshooting things down the line 133 00:09:09.600 --> 00:09:12.640 into product and then I started talking to the customers and realized I didn't 134 00:09:12.640 --> 00:09:15.310 want it. And then I started going to the marketing and sales team and I'm 135 00:09:15.310 --> 00:09:17.830 like wait, why are we talking to all these people who don't want the thing, 136 00:09:17.840 --> 00:09:22.360 right? Why is this process broke? And then he realized the legion essentially 137 00:09:22.640 --> 00:09:27.000 legion in the way we do marketing attribution was all broken and really 138 00:09:27.000 --> 00:09:31.130 we just needed to go out the sound kind of butchering as much now. But we need 139 00:09:31.130 --> 00:09:35.370 to go out and develop new demand gen by getting our thought leadership in front 140 00:09:35.370 --> 00:09:40.150 of them by leading them and creating demand before they even are looking for 141 00:09:40.150 --> 00:09:43.120 it so that you can win the deal way before they actually need the thing 142 00:09:43.130 --> 00:09:48.580 right. His villain is certainly is like marketing attribution and MQ Els but I 143 00:09:48.580 --> 00:09:54.190 think his positioning as a demand as a leader in dimension and his origin 144 00:09:54.190 --> 00:09:59.420 story or separate from the beliefs but they informed the beliefs like in a 145 00:09:59.420 --> 00:10:02.830 position to me positioning is so critical to marketing that it's like 146 00:10:02.830 --> 00:10:05.960 it's not it's beyond marketing. It's really organizational strategy at that 147 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:09.480 point, right? You have your like company strategy and then not long 148 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:13.850 after its positioning. And I think positioning so critical that it 149 00:10:13.850 --> 00:10:16.730 shouldn't be the marketing team that decides it has to be at the like c 150 00:10:16.730 --> 00:10:21.370 suite level. So you're saying it's like beliefs which go even before the two 151 00:10:21.370 --> 00:10:24.150 things that you just mentioned, right? Because that's what builds into the 152 00:10:24.150 --> 00:10:29.250 branding. So it starts with you said like your beliefs as a company your 153 00:10:29.260 --> 00:10:33.260 core values and that's like the foundation. That's what you say builds 154 00:10:33.270 --> 00:10:35.990 into brand because that's what you would consider branding and getting it 155 00:10:35.990 --> 00:10:40.700 right? Yeah. I think beliefs once you have your beliefs the things that you 156 00:10:40.700 --> 00:10:45.200 believe to be true that should impact your messaging, your messaging, we'll 157 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:49.230 probably incorporate some kind of villain. Maybe rituals is another thing 158 00:10:49.240 --> 00:10:53.150 that doesn't that's not super related to messaging. But all those things add 159 00:10:53.150 --> 00:10:57.140 up to what I call your icons and actually get a lot of this from a book 160 00:10:57.140 --> 00:11:01.660 called primal branding though. I've modified it but he calls it a creed and 161 00:11:01.660 --> 00:11:06.550 I'm like just beliefs are fine. Like I've modified it a bit because I'm not 162 00:11:06.560 --> 00:11:10.240 100% in line with his book but a lot of the ideas around like having a shared 163 00:11:10.250 --> 00:11:14.160 enemy or he calls it the anti believers having rituals comes from that book. 164 00:11:14.740 --> 00:11:18.290 Kind of opened my eyes to like how do you build a good brand? It's got to be 165 00:11:18.290 --> 00:11:22.130 more than a logo because lots of companies have logos and don't have 166 00:11:22.130 --> 00:11:26.150 good brands. So what makes a good moment, right? It's kind of the stuff 167 00:11:26.150 --> 00:11:30.300 underneath. And that's where I go into like the brand side of it because I 168 00:11:30.300 --> 00:11:34.030 think a lot of people and I think marketers are coming around to it where 169 00:11:34.030 --> 00:11:38.580 they believe that the logo, you know in the past has been this brand icon and 170 00:11:38.580 --> 00:11:42.180 that's why you buy. But the more you dig into it, like you don't buy a 171 00:11:42.180 --> 00:11:46.070 Mercedes because it has a cool logo, you buy a Mercedes because of the 172 00:11:46.070 --> 00:11:50.870 luxury feel and how you look to your friends etcetera. Right? So I guess if 173 00:11:50.870 --> 00:11:55.430 I were to look at it, I guess your argument is branding leads to brand and 174 00:11:55.430 --> 00:11:58.840 the more that we kind of talked about it. Like if you have good branding, so 175 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:03.320 your your message, your beliefs, the villain that you're going after and 176 00:12:03.320 --> 00:12:07.220 even the visual aspects eventually you're going to build into a solid 177 00:12:07.220 --> 00:12:10.400 brand. Is that what you're saying? Yes. And I think you can actually do it 178 00:12:10.400 --> 00:12:16.210 without the logo on the websites. Hence I do 200% believe like the hence brands 179 00:12:16.210 --> 00:12:19.070 have existed for a long time. Like the original one I'm thinking of I'm 180 00:12:19.070 --> 00:12:22.940 reading his biography right now is Josiah Wedgwood who is like the O. G. 181 00:12:22.940 --> 00:12:28.530 Marketer that no one has ever heard of. Usually he he was a potter and so he 182 00:12:28.530 --> 00:12:31.680 got mad one day when someone's like oh is this one of your pots? And he picked 183 00:12:31.680 --> 00:12:36.450 up a competitor's pot, he's like oh this is a wedgewood pot and he's like 184 00:12:36.630 --> 00:12:40.700 what? How could you not tell the difference without looking under the 185 00:12:40.700 --> 00:12:44.630 pot to find the name? He's like uh something's different. So he started 186 00:12:44.630 --> 00:12:47.650 differentiating all his products and really started developing a much 187 00:12:47.660 --> 00:12:52.880 broader brand name or his wood style. He also did a lot of other things that 188 00:12:52.880 --> 00:12:58.360 kind of kicked off the age of modern marketing but one of them was branding 189 00:12:58.370 --> 00:13:02.750 because he wanted his stuff to be different and people would seek out his 190 00:13:02.750 --> 00:13:06.460 stuff. He's like no I want I don't want a normal pot, I want a wedgewood pot 191 00:13:07.140 --> 00:13:11.400 but that was way before logos were a thing. Way before websites were a thing 192 00:13:11.400 --> 00:13:13.860 and all the other visual identity pieces were a thing. 193 00:13:14.940 --> 00:13:18.920 So I have a question for you then let's say that we are saying we're gonna work 194 00:13:18.920 --> 00:13:23.730 on branding as a marketer right We can't as marketers go back to ground 195 00:13:23.730 --> 00:13:28.660 zero to identify the villain if we already have it and if we already have 196 00:13:28.670 --> 00:13:31.960 the messaging that was put in place by the founder or the board of the Ceo or 197 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:36.020 whatever it is. So like wouldn't that almost make a third category for 198 00:13:36.020 --> 00:13:40.880 marketers, which is the visual aspects that they want to go work on to help 199 00:13:40.890 --> 00:13:44.000 create and identify here for the brand that they're building and the 200 00:13:44.000 --> 00:13:49.880 reputation that they have. Hey everybody Logan with sweet fish here. 201 00:13:49.890 --> 00:13:53.810 If you're a regular listener of GDP growth, you know that I'm one of the co 202 00:13:53.810 --> 00:13:57.750 hosts of the show but you may not know that. I also head up the sales team 203 00:13:57.750 --> 00:14:02.320 here at Sweet Fish. So for those of you in sales or sales ops, I wanted to take 204 00:14:02.320 --> 00:14:06.530 a second to share something that's made us insanely more efficient lately. Our 205 00:14:06.530 --> 00:14:10.630 team has been using lead I. Q. For the past few months. And what used to take 206 00:14:10.630 --> 00:14:16.360 us four hours gathering contact data now takes us only one where 75% more 207 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:20.080 efficient. We're able to move faster with outbound prospecting and 208 00:14:20.090 --> 00:14:24.780 organizing our campaigns is so much easier than before. I'd highly suggest 209 00:14:24.780 --> 00:14:29.860 you guys check out lead IQ as well. You can check them out at least I Q dot com. 210 00:14:29.870 --> 00:14:40.470 That's L E A D I Q dot com. Alright, let's get back to the show. I think if 211 00:14:40.470 --> 00:14:45.550 you want to like usually you're doing branding work well I hardly ever do 212 00:14:45.560 --> 00:14:50.150 launch a company with all the branding work already done, it has to be done as 213 00:14:50.150 --> 00:14:54.170 you go, right because even the position of the company, especially the company 214 00:14:54.170 --> 00:14:58.910 is changing every six months every day or as often as six months if you're 215 00:14:58.910 --> 00:15:02.220 fast growing and you're accelerating, right? Things change fast, which means 216 00:15:02.220 --> 00:15:06.230 your brand is changing fast, right? So hardly ever is a branding expert 217 00:15:06.230 --> 00:15:09.190 stepping into a company that's starting from ground zero. It's almost always 218 00:15:09.190 --> 00:15:12.430 got pieces in play. Some of the pieces are good, some of them are not and 219 00:15:12.430 --> 00:15:16.190 that's where you need to assess what's good. They might already have some of 220 00:15:16.190 --> 00:15:20.200 the things down, the messaging might be bland, but dang, they have this awesome 221 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:25.020 ritual they go through, we're going to keep that. People remember that. Or um 222 00:15:25.030 --> 00:15:29.970 like some of the things sweet fish is known for is personal brands, right? If 223 00:15:29.970 --> 00:15:33.000 you're on linkedin, you bumped into sweet fish, you know, we're all about 224 00:15:33.010 --> 00:15:38.380 personal brands because we believe like this reflects a belief about personal 225 00:15:38.600 --> 00:15:44.150 being better than personalized. That's a sweet fish belief. But that's like, 226 00:15:44.150 --> 00:15:47.190 it's like, it's like a reflection of the belief. So that would be something 227 00:15:47.190 --> 00:15:50.050 I'd put in there. So you can actually already assess it and be like what 228 00:15:50.050 --> 00:15:52.780 beliefs are already in play, what messaging is already in play. That's 229 00:15:52.780 --> 00:15:55.960 good and what's missing. Maybe we don't have a villain, maybe the messaging 230 00:15:55.960 --> 00:16:00.320 sucks, but the beliefs are good when I hear the founder talk and we just need 231 00:16:00.320 --> 00:16:04.170 to actually articulate them in better messaging because internally they're 232 00:16:04.180 --> 00:16:07.820 using this language, that's awesome and it's really stacked on good beliefs. We 233 00:16:07.820 --> 00:16:11.670 just haven't put it in marketing yet. You might be something farther down, 234 00:16:11.680 --> 00:16:14.900 farther downstream to like the position you might be broken even though they 235 00:16:14.900 --> 00:16:20.570 got a strong brand. No one can exactly remember what they do, right? Everybody 236 00:16:20.570 --> 00:16:23.750 likes the brand, but nobody knows exactly why to buy from them. So that 237 00:16:23.750 --> 00:16:26.780 could be, there could be problems downstream to like you don't have a 238 00:16:26.780 --> 00:16:29.750 good story for why that's something we're wrestling with that sweet fish, 239 00:16:30.140 --> 00:16:35.380 right? We don't know why do we do what we do in a way that is not, hey, we 240 00:16:35.380 --> 00:16:39.500 want to earn more money because that's never a good y right? So there's no 241 00:16:39.860 --> 00:16:43.270 need to get a larger story or and we're still working even on the mission, like 242 00:16:43.270 --> 00:16:46.510 what are we trying to build a community around to achieve together? We have 243 00:16:46.510 --> 00:16:50.090 some ideas we're kicking around, but I'd say that stuff is all, I'm sorry, 244 00:16:50.090 --> 00:16:54.920 not downstream, continually evolving. So yeah, so I guess honestly one of the 245 00:16:54.920 --> 00:16:58.860 reasons that I was just like, I feel like we need just a visual 246 00:16:58.860 --> 00:17:03.590 representation of branding branding is because I see so many posts from bigger 247 00:17:03.590 --> 00:17:07.670 name, B, two B marketers that are like, here's what brand is, right? And of 248 00:17:07.670 --> 00:17:11.700 course they list reputation and I didn't like strip copy what they said, 249 00:17:11.700 --> 00:17:14.470 but I had some ideas of my own right And then they say it's not your logo on 250 00:17:14.470 --> 00:17:17.020 your website. So I sat to myself, I'm like, well, what is your logo and 251 00:17:17.020 --> 00:17:20.619 website? And maybe it's really not branding. Maybe it needs a category of 252 00:17:20.619 --> 00:17:24.020 its own, or like, it's a tip of an iceberg, like you mentioned of branding. 253 00:17:24.030 --> 00:17:28.339 But I think one of the reasons that I was like, we need to identify, like, 254 00:17:28.349 --> 00:17:32.850 what, since if if this isn't brand, then what is it? That was almost my 255 00:17:32.850 --> 00:17:36.310 thought process behind creating like this graphic with a line down the 256 00:17:36.310 --> 00:17:40.000 middle and again, I mean, if it if it needs another name, you know, I'm not 257 00:17:40.000 --> 00:17:42.720 always attached to Brandon, but it sounds like you're just expanding on 258 00:17:42.730 --> 00:17:46.540 what branding is more than the visual aspects. It goes deeper into the, like, 259 00:17:46.540 --> 00:17:50.890 the company origin story and it works this way back all the way from the 260 00:17:50.890 --> 00:17:55.270 image, all the way back to, that's what you're saying. Yeah, of course you can 261 00:17:55.270 --> 00:17:59.330 have a pretty strong brand to be missing some critical elements, but the 262 00:17:59.330 --> 00:18:02.890 more elements are missing the harder it gets, which is why you have brands like 263 00:18:02.890 --> 00:18:07.720 Hyatt where you could literally just, or brands like, I don't know, Hyatt 264 00:18:07.730 --> 00:18:11.530 Skechers to some degree, you know, like, these brands are just kind of like, uh 265 00:18:11.540 --> 00:18:14.650 no one really resonates with Skechers. You know, maybe they saw it in the 266 00:18:14.650 --> 00:18:17.240 store, maybe I'm sure they're big enough brand, that they probably have 267 00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:21.290 some followers. Hi, it's my favorite to pick on that because I think everyone, 268 00:18:21.300 --> 00:18:26.610 no one, no one's like, I love Hyatt Hotels, that's my thing. You're like, 269 00:18:26.620 --> 00:18:31.440 Most hotels are like that in particular, it's a huge, huge brand. No one really 270 00:18:31.440 --> 00:18:36.220 cares about them. So they've done everything right. They've hired very 271 00:18:36.220 --> 00:18:40.700 expensive agencies to come up with visual identities, but we don't have 272 00:18:40.700 --> 00:18:44.560 any interest in. It only goes so far. Yeah. Yeah. The thing is the visual 273 00:18:44.560 --> 00:18:47.860 side really only goes so far and like you mentioned, and I actually agree 274 00:18:47.860 --> 00:18:50.550 with this is you could have the brand side 275 00:18:51.740 --> 00:18:57.850 and do well as a company and have mediocre to subpar. I'm what I would 276 00:18:57.850 --> 00:19:02.110 label branding, right? Uh, logo, website, colors, swag cool graphics 277 00:19:02.120 --> 00:19:07.080 because people will remember you for the brand side more so than the visual 278 00:19:07.080 --> 00:19:11.550 aspects of your marketing, which as you continue to grow, of course you need to 279 00:19:11.770 --> 00:19:16.430 up that. Because if you think about Mcdonald's coke, Apple, like of course 280 00:19:16.430 --> 00:19:20.630 the visual representation is there and you do start to remember it. But when I 281 00:19:20.630 --> 00:19:25.000 think of sweet fish, I don't think of the logo or even your website. Like if 282 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:27.740 I think about it, of course I can remember it, but immediately the thing 283 00:19:27.740 --> 00:19:32.260 I think about is wow from the start, James has created an an incredible 284 00:19:32.260 --> 00:19:37.000 culture with the employees. Like you uh, Logan and anyone else that's at sweet 285 00:19:37.000 --> 00:19:41.160 fish, right? And that's something I immediately remember about you guys and 286 00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:45.490 that's where I'm just like, I totally agree where brand carries the weight 287 00:19:45.500 --> 00:19:49.550 way more than what I would label branding, which is the visual aspects. 288 00:19:50.040 --> 00:19:53.950 I think the thing we get stuck on is like, what is the work that you have to 289 00:19:53.950 --> 00:19:58.310 do in order to get the outcome of having a strong brand? So sweet fish 290 00:19:58.320 --> 00:20:03.020 has a fairly strong brand. But what's the work that went into doing it? It's 291 00:20:03.020 --> 00:20:07.960 almost like James did it on accident. Like he of course he did a lot of stuff, 292 00:20:07.970 --> 00:20:11.940 but like there's some things that he does just as a person habits that he 293 00:20:11.940 --> 00:20:16.940 has that could be a part of it though is simply they, James attracts the 294 00:20:16.940 --> 00:20:20.990 right people because of who he is and that can be a brand in itself. For 295 00:20:20.990 --> 00:20:23.490 example, chris walker is a cool guy. I'm sure there are people that 296 00:20:23.500 --> 00:20:27.630 consumers content and say, I like chris I want to work with chris and that 297 00:20:27.630 --> 00:20:32.930 could impact, like trickle down to the brand and eventually like explode into 298 00:20:32.930 --> 00:20:36.760 something bigger if you're creating like the same culture that you're 299 00:20:36.760 --> 00:20:40.510 portraying through your, you know, personal profile or just life in 300 00:20:40.510 --> 00:20:44.030 general, right? And that's why in the book, primal branding, he would say 301 00:20:44.030 --> 00:20:49.300 every strong, really strong brand as a leader, right? You think a virgin, you 302 00:20:49.300 --> 00:20:55.220 cannot think of their leader, you cannot think of richard Branson, right? 303 00:20:55.230 --> 00:21:01.070 You think I actually like, I'll tell you, it's yeah, there's usually a 304 00:21:01.070 --> 00:21:04.580 leader associated with the strong brand. Not always though, because like you 305 00:21:04.580 --> 00:21:07.690 think of Southwest is a fairly strong brand. There's no leader behind it. At 306 00:21:07.690 --> 00:21:10.980 least that I can think of spent time thinking about them. So I'm like, I 307 00:21:10.980 --> 00:21:13.990 don't know what their leaders, but there are other aspects that impact the 308 00:21:13.990 --> 00:21:18.350 brand. Like what you said about James is he almost did it on accident if 309 00:21:18.350 --> 00:21:22.390 that's the case, That's awesome. But it's probably because of his integrity, 310 00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:26.680 his personality, him as a person, right? And then you get to Southwest, there's 311 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:30.530 obviously some other things in the brand category. Maybe it's a reputation, 312 00:21:30.540 --> 00:21:35.200 the experience how they treat their customers. That's like the thing that 313 00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:40.020 drives the brand forward more so than like the origin, not the origin story, 314 00:21:40.030 --> 00:21:43.790 but like the founder and the personality he has, like you guys like 315 00:21:43.800 --> 00:21:48.030 that sweet fish, right? I think it's easier if you have a founder that has a 316 00:21:48.030 --> 00:21:53.570 lot has a strong personal brand or strong beliefs and viewpoints that has 317 00:21:53.580 --> 00:21:57.230 like when he has a strong point of view that especially in a startup where it's 318 00:21:57.230 --> 00:22:01.790 all flowing from that founder, then that creates a strong brand really 319 00:22:01.790 --> 00:22:04.950 easily. Unless it grew it was so fast that it outgrows the founder which has 320 00:22:04.950 --> 00:22:08.400 happened, right, You know, Tony hi sh with Zappos talked about it in his 321 00:22:08.400 --> 00:22:12.820 biography where he, his company grew so fast that they hired so quickly. He 322 00:22:12.820 --> 00:22:16.560 couldn't instill his personal values into the company unlike Zappos where he 323 00:22:16.560 --> 00:22:20.350 took his time, but I still think you can do it without, you just have to be 324 00:22:20.350 --> 00:22:25.060 more intentional and think about like what are the beliefs that we have as a 325 00:22:25.070 --> 00:22:29.490 leadership team or as an orig or what, what do we want to believe in? Like 326 00:22:29.500 --> 00:22:35.350 what can we believe that makes us weird? I actually think the word weird is key. 327 00:22:36.040 --> 00:22:40.210 Yeah, that's a good one. I I don't know if anything comes to mind for what we 328 00:22:40.210 --> 00:22:44.300 do. I think, I don't know that we're just a good question where I'll 329 00:22:44.300 --> 00:22:47.830 actually have to think about it because that is a fun way to do it and really 330 00:22:47.830 --> 00:22:51.920 like what does make us different and somewhat weird to others. That is 331 00:22:51.920 --> 00:22:55.070 interesting like that and I think that's, we're thinking about like your 332 00:22:55.080 --> 00:22:59.290 anti believers and I don't think you're anti believers are necessarily the 333 00:22:59.290 --> 00:23:02.170 people that buy into your competitor. But it could be if your competitor 334 00:23:02.170 --> 00:23:06.200 stands for a totally different way of doing things and then I wouldn't make 335 00:23:06.210 --> 00:23:10.000 the enemy, your your competitor. I make it that way of that approach is the 336 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:17.720 enemy right for chris walker. It's legion in general, people who are big 337 00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:22.860 into legion and hubspot and tracking to the N degree with analytics and data 338 00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:27.990 and driving lots of em Que els, those are the anti believers of which I find 339 00:23:27.990 --> 00:23:33.260 myself somewhere in the middle for his camp. I'm not like, it's not gospel to 340 00:23:33.260 --> 00:23:38.570 me. I'm like, I could still win with Ceo. I'm like on the middle, but 341 00:23:38.570 --> 00:23:42.120 there's definitely man, there's a whole crew that are like champion that 342 00:23:42.120 --> 00:23:48.380 message now and that those beliefs, it's like part of them. So I think 343 00:23:48.380 --> 00:23:51.470 thinking about what beliefs you have that make you weird as in, there's 344 00:23:51.470 --> 00:23:54.390 going to be some people that think you're really weird for it, but you and 345 00:23:54.390 --> 00:23:58.950 the other people that you are like, yes, no, this is the truth. This is the 346 00:23:58.950 --> 00:24:02.650 thing. Yeah, I agree. And I think that's something that we're going 347 00:24:02.650 --> 00:24:07.010 through right now is, I mean, I guess it would be positioning or narrative or 348 00:24:07.010 --> 00:24:11.570 whatever just coming up with like what is it that you're against and what is 349 00:24:11.570 --> 00:24:14.180 it that you're known for? Because I think that's something that we've 350 00:24:14.180 --> 00:24:17.150 lacked. And it's like definitely our focus that were, you know, playing 351 00:24:17.150 --> 00:24:20.310 around with right now some ideas and bouncing around, but I'm gonna have to 352 00:24:20.310 --> 00:24:23.320 steal though. What makes us weird. That's gonna be something that we 353 00:24:23.330 --> 00:24:26.810 certainly think about. Yeah. And honestly you could probably look to 354 00:24:26.810 --> 00:24:31.160 your positioning for cues on that right? I don't know, it probably doesn't tell 355 00:24:31.160 --> 00:24:34.260 you everything. Like we're a B two B podcast agency, that sweet fish is 356 00:24:34.260 --> 00:24:41.940 positioning, but we all know that BBS usually kind of boring. I know it's in 357 00:24:41.940 --> 00:24:46.920 fashion right now to make B to be fun, but hardly anybody's doing it. 358 00:24:46.930 --> 00:24:50.940 Everybody's talking about what I want to do, what you guys are all talking 359 00:24:50.940 --> 00:24:55.410 about it, but we haven't actually like done it yet. You have very few 360 00:24:55.410 --> 00:24:58.960 companies are pushing the envelope on fun and B two B um sweet fish. So 361 00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:02.950 that's what we're trying to do is trying to bring that back. Hence our, 362 00:25:03.240 --> 00:25:07.760 our villain that we've been forming as commodity content. I like it. I like it. 363 00:25:08.340 --> 00:25:12.300 So now I have to go and work some messaging around it. And uh, I think 364 00:25:12.300 --> 00:25:15.220 James has been working on some stuff like bye bye boring content or 365 00:25:15.220 --> 00:25:19.340 something as a hashtag, he's been using bye bye boring content. I think that's 366 00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:23.150 one of the things that would, that would be, that would be an extension of 367 00:25:23.150 --> 00:25:30.170 the belief that commodity contents bad and then moved to language or messaging 368 00:25:30.180 --> 00:25:35.230 right? Which is going to be by, by commodity by, by boring content. I 369 00:25:35.230 --> 00:25:39.570 think one of the best ways I've seen this going on is I see some B two B 370 00:25:39.570 --> 00:25:44.590 brands tooling around with the world of like tic tac or even instagram reels 371 00:25:44.600 --> 00:25:49.070 and I think that's just a fun way to connect with your buyers and again, 372 00:25:49.070 --> 00:25:52.120 this goes back to like your brand. Like how does, how does your brand make you, 373 00:25:52.130 --> 00:25:56.570 your, your buyers feel when they see you, right. And I've even seen this is 374 00:25:56.570 --> 00:25:59.960 funny because I wouldn't think of them as like a funny brand, But refined labs 375 00:25:59.960 --> 00:26:04.570 has a Tiktok now that they've gotten like some videos on and it's like, I'm 376 00:26:04.570 --> 00:26:07.520 like pretty picky when it comes to content that makes me laugh. Like if 377 00:26:07.520 --> 00:26:10.000 it's stupid, I'm not gonna laugh, but they actually had a couple of videos 378 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:13.390 that I was like chuckling at. So, uh, I see they're kind of doing the same 379 00:26:13.390 --> 00:26:17.250 thing. I think gong, I didn't see their, their page, I just started following 380 00:26:17.250 --> 00:26:20.790 the other day, but they have some videos there. I think chili piper might 381 00:26:20.790 --> 00:26:25.780 be another one, but it's whatever we've seen in B two C for the past X amount 382 00:26:25.780 --> 00:26:28.750 of years, give it two or three years and the same thing is gonna start 383 00:26:28.750 --> 00:26:32.690 happening in B two B. So it's, you can almost get ahead of the curve, see what 384 00:26:32.690 --> 00:26:35.070 exactly what they're doing and how they're interacting with their audience 385 00:26:35.070 --> 00:26:39.040 and their buyers And then just replicate that in the B two B world and 386 00:26:39.040 --> 00:26:42.110 don't be afraid to do it. It's interesting. That's a whole, another 387 00:26:42.110 --> 00:26:45.610 conversation on what I'm seeing is doing right now and I'm like, okay, so 388 00:26:45.610 --> 00:26:48.430 Tiktok is becoming a thing. But what's after Tiktok and I've already have in 389 00:26:48.430 --> 00:26:52.410 my head what's next after Tiktok that I'm like starting to invest in now. So 390 00:26:52.420 --> 00:27:00.240 we'll figure that out. But I don't know this, this Ma'am branding branding such 391 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:05.680 a broad and fascinating topic to pick up what are some of the your favorite 392 00:27:05.680 --> 00:27:11.870 brands gone, refined labs. Uh Sweet fish definitely hits the list. I guess 393 00:27:11.870 --> 00:27:16.770 I'm going to be to be ones uh drift kind of like the early days to be 394 00:27:16.770 --> 00:27:21.410 honest. I like their narrative better before than what it is now. I think it 395 00:27:21.410 --> 00:27:25.150 would be my top four as for like B. Two C. Because we can get, you know, we can 396 00:27:25.150 --> 00:27:29.180 take some examples from this, I would say. Uh the NFL and the MLB are pretty 397 00:27:29.180 --> 00:27:34.090 incredible brands. Apple, of course coke, Wendy's is one of my favorite. 398 00:27:34.100 --> 00:27:38.240 Just go read their twitter, It's hilarious burger king. So those are 399 00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:41.240 some examples of some brands that I like, interesting. I think all 400 00:27:41.240 --> 00:27:44.070 everybody listening to show is kind of like nodding their head like, yep, yep, 401 00:27:44.080 --> 00:27:48.000 those are all brands. I'm proud that sweet fish made it to the list. That 402 00:27:48.000 --> 00:27:51.920 makes me happy. Yeah, it's a culture. I honestly compared to some others, but 403 00:27:51.930 --> 00:27:52.270 yeah, 404 00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:56.350 yeah, it's definitely the culture, whenever I think about you guys, I just 405 00:27:56.350 --> 00:28:00.280 think about what a fun place to work, right? Everyone is excited to be there 406 00:28:00.290 --> 00:28:04.260 excited to, to do their job and it's like a family and that's how I consider 407 00:28:04.260 --> 00:28:07.800 it and it makes me like have an affinity towards what you guys do 408 00:28:07.800 --> 00:28:11.540 because of that. So obviously doing something right? That's good, I will 409 00:28:11.540 --> 00:28:15.300 certainly be passing that off to James and uh our director of culture because 410 00:28:15.300 --> 00:28:18.990 that's what he cares a lot about. Um but of course that eliminates out 411 00:28:18.990 --> 00:28:25.040 through the brand and all the marketing work too Well. Cool man! Sam. This has 412 00:28:25.040 --> 00:28:28.240 been an awesome conversation and I think this is gonna be a continuing 413 00:28:28.240 --> 00:28:33.500 dialogue and to be fun kicked off with this this podcast episode. Is there any 414 00:28:33.510 --> 00:28:37.200 final thoughts you have for the guest or anything you'd like to share about 415 00:28:37.200 --> 00:28:41.270 what you're doing, what you're working on before we sign off with this episode? 416 00:28:41.940 --> 00:28:46.580 You know, if you want to continue the debate, I'm pretty active on linkedin 417 00:28:46.590 --> 00:28:50.840 Sand Moss. Just search it. I'm pretty sure I'll come up. So send me a 418 00:28:50.840 --> 00:28:55.810 connection request, we will go at it in the comment section if you, if you want 419 00:28:55.810 --> 00:28:58.830 to chat, I'm always responding to stuff. So that's probably the best way to find 420 00:28:58.830 --> 00:29:02.250 me that we have a podcast where it's called BBB Made Simple where we talk 421 00:29:02.250 --> 00:29:05.390 about similar things that we just talked about today. So if you're, 422 00:29:05.400 --> 00:29:08.200 you're interested in that, be sure to check it out as well. But dan, I 423 00:29:08.200 --> 00:29:11.310 appreciate you having me And this has been great, awesome. Thanks again for 424 00:29:11.310 --> 00:29:16.340 joining us. Danchev That's right. That's what my friends call me. So if 425 00:29:16.340 --> 00:29:20.310 you're a friend, call me Sanchez, That's always true. So again, thank you 426 00:29:20.310 --> 00:29:27.420 for joining me on the road. You gotta thank you. Are you on linkedin? That's 427 00:29:27.420 --> 00:29:31.100 a stupid question. Of course you're on linkedin here. Sweet fish. We've gone 428 00:29:31.110 --> 00:29:35.480 all in on the platform. Multiple people from our team are creating content 429 00:29:35.480 --> 00:29:39.760 there. Sometimes it's a funny gift for me and other times it's a micro video 430 00:29:39.760 --> 00:29:44.170 or a slide deck and sometimes it's just a regular old status update that shares 431 00:29:44.240 --> 00:29:48.310 Their unique point of view on B2B marketing leadership or their job 432 00:29:48.310 --> 00:29:52.690 function. We're posting this content through their personal profile, not our 433 00:29:52.690 --> 00:29:57.510 company page and it would warm my heart and soul if you connected with each of 434 00:29:57.510 --> 00:30:01.780 our evangelists will be adding more down the road. But for now you should 435 00:30:01.780 --> 00:30:06.950 connect with Bill Reed, R C 00. Kelsey Montgomery, our creative director dan 436 00:30:06.950 --> 00:30:10.680 Sanchez, our director of audience growth Logan Lyles, our director of 437 00:30:10.680 --> 00:30:14.930 partnerships and me, James Carberry. We're having a whole lot of fun on 438 00:30:14.930 --> 00:30:18.240 linked in pretty much every single day and we'd love for you to be a part of 439 00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:18.450 it.