#BTC 28: Thought Leadership is Achieved, Not Proclaimed

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.360 --> 00:00:08.710 Welcome back to be to be growth. My name is Timmy Bower and I'm 2 00:00:08.789 --> 00:00:12.949 on the editorial team at sweet fish. This is a special behind the curtain 3 00:00:13.070 --> 00:00:16.910 episode of B Tob Growth and I'm joined today by Dan Sanchez, our director 4 00:00:16.949 --> 00:00:21.190 of audience growth, James Carberry, our founder and CEO, and Logan Lyles, 5 00:00:21.230 --> 00:00:27.339 are director of partnerships. How why did I convince three of our most 6 00:00:27.539 --> 00:00:32.979 expensive sweetfish people to get together for an episode on thought leadership? It's because 7 00:00:33.100 --> 00:00:37.530 I think the philosophy behind becoming a thought leader and the steps to take to 8 00:00:37.649 --> 00:00:42.770 make that happen are incredibly important ideas for companies to tackle. James, Logan, 9 00:00:42.810 --> 00:00:46.049 Dan, how do you feel about somebody labeling you as a thought leader? 10 00:00:46.929 --> 00:00:49.770 It makes me want to cringe. More than anything else in the world 11 00:00:49.850 --> 00:00:54.240 makes me cringe. It's maybe not as bad as being called an influencer, 12 00:00:54.520 --> 00:00:59.320 but yeah, it's up there. It's not. James and I text regularly 13 00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:03.159 when we see someone who has thought leader self proclaimed in their linkedin bio and 14 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:07.870 just so I don't feel like I'm there yet, but I'm like some day. 15 00:01:08.310 --> 00:01:11.709 Yeah, and I you can never say it about yourself. I can 16 00:01:11.790 --> 00:01:17.150 only be said about you absolutely that. That's a great lead into the next 17 00:01:17.150 --> 00:01:21.780 question that I have, which is Dan and Logan. Why should anyone listen 18 00:01:21.939 --> 00:01:26.019 to what James has to say about thought leadership? I think it's really interesting 19 00:01:26.340 --> 00:01:32.099 where I was following James on linkedin before we were friends, before I was 20 00:01:32.140 --> 00:01:34.489 a member of the the sweetfish team, and James will be the first to 21 00:01:34.609 --> 00:01:38.609 tell you he started be to be growth, strictly to use it for content 22 00:01:38.730 --> 00:01:44.450 based networking, to interview people who could potentially work with us at sweetfish, 23 00:01:44.890 --> 00:01:49.599 you know, because it's a more effective sales motion of especially for people, 24 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:51.920 you know, like James, who claimed to not have a sales bone in 25 00:01:51.959 --> 00:01:55.000 their body. Not that I don't think he's a great communicator, obviously, 26 00:01:55.400 --> 00:02:00.239 but over a time that consistency of creating content with the community that at that 27 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:04.430 point he was trying to serve, he was putting out so much content that 28 00:02:04.629 --> 00:02:08.550 people started to put on that title of of thought leader, and so I 29 00:02:08.750 --> 00:02:15.349 think going through that process was just a huge learning experience for for him and 30 00:02:15.590 --> 00:02:19.780 for the sweet fish team, and it has informed how we think about thought 31 00:02:19.780 --> 00:02:23.099 leadership. I'd say, just because he fits the definition of a thought leader 32 00:02:23.099 --> 00:02:25.180 right, which I think is a next question you have coming up. So 33 00:02:25.379 --> 00:02:31.289 when we get to that elaborate awesome. What about Logan, James and Dan? 34 00:02:31.650 --> 00:02:35.050 Why should anyone listen to what he has to say about it? I 35 00:02:35.169 --> 00:02:38.810 mean, to me, logan exhibits qualities of being a thought leader. I 36 00:02:38.889 --> 00:02:45.400 would call Logan a thought leader because he's a practitioner and he is he is 37 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:51.879 actually done the work to build the expertise and communicate that expertise to an audience 38 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:54.400 of people that whose attention he wants, and so that's why I would call 39 00:02:54.439 --> 00:02:58.439 Logan a thought leader. Dan, I'm guessing your answers going to be the 40 00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:01.469 same as the one you just gave exactly. So we'll get it all right. 41 00:03:01.669 --> 00:03:06.389 Before we get into what you're teasing, I just want to give Logan 42 00:03:06.509 --> 00:03:08.310 and James a chance to say why they think Dan is a thought leader. 43 00:03:08.430 --> 00:03:13.139 I am just so excited to have Dan on as our director of audience growth 44 00:03:13.180 --> 00:03:19.580 because he has done marketing successfully in a variety of different roles. He has, 45 00:03:19.699 --> 00:03:22.020 you know, as they say in Skat, in sales, he's got 46 00:03:22.180 --> 00:03:25.139 skins on the wall, meaning he's been there, he's done it. He's 47 00:03:25.300 --> 00:03:30.729 taking a lot of what he's learned in marketing and other roles in other industries, 48 00:03:30.009 --> 00:03:35.650 applying that now in BB podcasting. So you know it. Dan. 49 00:03:35.770 --> 00:03:38.569 I know you mentioned the other day like Hey, I'm new to this role 50 00:03:38.569 --> 00:03:40.800 and people are asking me questions, but I think you already have such a 51 00:03:40.919 --> 00:03:46.719 foundation of practice and experience that I instantly was like, okay, I want 52 00:03:46.719 --> 00:03:51.000 to listen to what Dan what Dan has to say, and you tend to 53 00:03:51.080 --> 00:03:54.479 have a stance on it, whether it's a specific MARTEC application or the way 54 00:03:54.560 --> 00:03:59.469 to go about marketing, and I think there's got to be experience, kind 55 00:03:59.509 --> 00:04:01.990 of like what Tommy what you were saying or what James was saying about me 56 00:04:02.110 --> 00:04:05.710 and in sales, and then you you have to have a stance. So 57 00:04:06.150 --> 00:04:10.819 I see that in Dan and I'm probably kind of getting into the definition, 58 00:04:10.860 --> 00:04:14.340 from my point of view anyway, but that's what I got yes so I've 59 00:04:14.379 --> 00:04:19.019 actually heard Dan talk about this idea of distinguishing between an expert, a celebrity 60 00:04:19.500 --> 00:04:24.259 and a thought leader, and I think if you were looking at was it 61 00:04:24.370 --> 00:04:28.410 is a called a vin diagram where the two circles overlap. So we and 62 00:04:28.490 --> 00:04:33.490 you've got an expert over here that has expert level knowledge in something and then 63 00:04:33.529 --> 00:04:39.759 you have a celebrity over here that has the attention of an audience of people, 64 00:04:40.199 --> 00:04:43.839 and in between there you have a thought leader. You've got someone with 65 00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:49.480 expertise that is sharing that content so that they have built an audience within a 66 00:04:49.680 --> 00:04:56.230 week of day and sharing content on Linkedin. He had a post go bananas 67 00:04:56.389 --> 00:04:59.069 on Linkedin. I mean, I don't know, thirty, forty, fiftyzero 68 00:04:59.310 --> 00:05:02.149 views on on his linkedin content. Now I didn't have anything to do with 69 00:05:02.269 --> 00:05:06.459 digital marketing and has to do with this faith, but I think it shows 70 00:05:06.819 --> 00:05:12.500 how quickly he is figured out how to get attention on Linkedin. And the 71 00:05:12.540 --> 00:05:15.180 dude has a lot of things to say because, like what Logan said, 72 00:05:15.379 --> 00:05:20.060 he's actually done the work of digital marketing. He's, you know, tripled 73 00:05:20.100 --> 00:05:26.290 the size of an entire university where he worked before he came to work here, 74 00:05:26.810 --> 00:05:30.569 and so he's done the work, he's actually seen results and now he's 75 00:05:30.610 --> 00:05:35.519 starting to communicate those things that he's learned over the last ten, fifteen years 76 00:05:35.600 --> 00:05:40.399 of his career and I think that that's what makes him a thought leader. 77 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:44.480 Yeah, I love how you phrase that, James, and and this picture 78 00:05:44.519 --> 00:05:46.920 of the Ven Diagram has been in my mind a lot because I talked to 79 00:05:46.920 --> 00:05:49.470 a lot of marketing leaders that say. And we have, we have so 80 00:05:49.589 --> 00:05:54.350 many thought leaders within our walls, well, digital walls, as everybody's remote 81 00:05:54.389 --> 00:05:57.069 right now, and I kind of push back on that, like do you? 82 00:05:57.550 --> 00:06:00.829 I think you have experts, because the difference between an expert in a 83 00:06:00.910 --> 00:06:06.019 thought leader is the thought leader has an audience, is known. They're known 84 00:06:06.100 --> 00:06:09.740 to people. That doesn't mean you're known far and wide. You know, 85 00:06:10.060 --> 00:06:13.699 like in podcasting, let's say Joe Rogan. If you're in bb you don't 86 00:06:13.740 --> 00:06:15.980 need the reach of a Joe Rogan, but there are a few thousand or 87 00:06:15.980 --> 00:06:19.930 a few hundred people you are trying to reach and if you're not known there, 88 00:06:20.209 --> 00:06:23.490 then you might be an expert, but I wouldn't say you're a thought 89 00:06:23.490 --> 00:06:26.329 leader. And, like you said, on the other end of the spectrum, 90 00:06:26.410 --> 00:06:28.810 of the other half of that, then diagram is, you know, 91 00:06:29.129 --> 00:06:31.769 the Rock. He's famous, he's known by everyone, but he doesn't necessarily 92 00:06:31.850 --> 00:06:38.560 have thoughts or necessarily provoking thoughts that you're wanting to follow to for whatever reason. 93 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:41.519 So not that he doesn't, you know, occasionally say something good or 94 00:06:41.560 --> 00:06:45.319 whatever. Yeah, now that we've jumped at a definition, you know. 95 00:06:45.480 --> 00:06:48.029 Let's let's just dive into that topic right and that's why I would say the 96 00:06:48.110 --> 00:06:50.110 way you guys de find it. That's why I would say it like I'm 97 00:06:50.149 --> 00:06:55.430 not a thought leader, like maybe some day, but I have some expertise, 98 00:06:55.509 --> 00:06:58.910 but I when someone thinks about digital marketing, like I'm not the person 99 00:06:58.949 --> 00:07:01.819 that comes to mind. It's usually like a Ryan dice or maybe a Neil 100 00:07:01.860 --> 00:07:04.939 Patel or someone like that. Maybe some day I can be known as a 101 00:07:05.019 --> 00:07:10.579 digital marketer or in a specific light. When people think of podcasting, I 102 00:07:10.740 --> 00:07:14.220 see them tagging you guys and Linkedin. They're like, Oh, you should 103 00:07:14.220 --> 00:07:15.769 talk to Logan, you should talk to James, they know all about that. 104 00:07:16.370 --> 00:07:19.449 When someone's asking about, Oh, podcasting, who should I go to? 105 00:07:19.730 --> 00:07:21.490 What? What should I know about it? Oh, and they tag 106 00:07:21.649 --> 00:07:25.569 you. That's that's a good sign that you're probably a thought leader. When 107 00:07:25.649 --> 00:07:30.120 lots of people are reference in you, maybe who don't even like particularly know 108 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:32.800 you well. They're not like friends our family, they're just people who know 109 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:38.079 about you and your expertise, and that's an interesting thought. They're so digital 110 00:07:38.120 --> 00:07:45.509 marketing obviously a very broad topic. What do you think strategically, for you 111 00:07:45.750 --> 00:07:50.430 to try to build thought leadership and in the early days of your journey in 112 00:07:50.589 --> 00:07:55.550 building thought leadership, do you think it's smarter for you to focus on trying 113 00:07:55.589 --> 00:07:59.459 to be known for digital marketing, or is it smarter for you to try 114 00:07:59.579 --> 00:08:03.819 to be known for BB podcasting, because that's what we're doing here, that's 115 00:08:03.860 --> 00:08:05.899 the expertise of our company. That's a choice that I need to make, 116 00:08:07.019 --> 00:08:09.860 but it's obviously easier than the more niche you go, the easier it is 117 00:08:09.899 --> 00:08:11.420 to become the leader of that niche, to the point where you make a 118 00:08:11.459 --> 00:08:15.170 niche that doesn't even exist just so you can be the leader. And companies 119 00:08:15.209 --> 00:08:18.730 do it all the time with category productory. You invent a category is so 120 00:08:18.850 --> 00:08:22.009 that you can be the leader of your own category. Right, people are 121 00:08:22.089 --> 00:08:26.410 in the same boat as businesses. They have to try to find which category 122 00:08:26.449 --> 00:08:28.240 do they belong in? How are they going to position themselves? which is 123 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:33.360 why marketers are usually the best at personal branding, right, because they can 124 00:08:33.399 --> 00:08:35.960 think through those things. I'm still navigating that. I'm actually still trying to 125 00:08:37.000 --> 00:08:41.590 figure out exactly where I should fit into the scheme of it. I've actually 126 00:08:41.669 --> 00:08:45.990 thought about do I want to specialize in becoming an expert and making other people 127 00:08:46.309 --> 00:08:50.870 thought leaders are or micro celebrities in their in their field. Right, since 128 00:08:50.909 --> 00:08:54.429 that's a big part of becoming a and I think we are, it's interessiting 129 00:08:54.549 --> 00:09:00.139 most people. It's in interesting to me that you start you can. I 130 00:09:00.460 --> 00:09:05.379 think the smarter path is to start, start with a niche and then expand 131 00:09:05.500 --> 00:09:11.210 from there. So you see, Gary v started in wine and then he 132 00:09:11.769 --> 00:09:16.370 expanded into a completely different you know, not that wine and business are necessarily 133 00:09:16.450 --> 00:09:22.490 correlated, but you I like Neil Patel. Didn't Neil Patel really start with 134 00:09:22.929 --> 00:09:26.679 Seo and then eventually expand them to digital marketing? Yeah, I think that's 135 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:30.200 a really good point, James. I mean because we see it on the 136 00:09:30.240 --> 00:09:33.039 company side. To write. Like you and I were talking the other day 137 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:37.279 at this point, at our evolution in sweetfish. We started as a content 138 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:41.990 writing shop. We made a hard pivot Indopb podcasting, figuring out our ICP, 139 00:09:41.470 --> 00:09:43.990 and for a long time we're like Nope, we don't do video, 140 00:09:45.190 --> 00:09:46.750 we don't do this, we don't do that, like it's just a podcast, 141 00:09:46.789 --> 00:09:48.990 because we want to get really good at that. Well, now, 142 00:09:50.350 --> 00:09:52.500 since then we've expanded, right, we do videos for Youtube, for some 143 00:09:52.659 --> 00:09:56.860 clients. We do micro videos for social and we do these other things that 144 00:09:56.899 --> 00:10:01.259 are related to podcasts. And in some ways you could say like, hey, 145 00:10:01.299 --> 00:10:05.019 sweet fish does everything that kind of an all a card broad based digital 146 00:10:05.059 --> 00:10:09.970 marketing agency does, but are positioning and the way that we get to those 147 00:10:11.009 --> 00:10:15.769 other things is all out of podcasting. So I think the positioning that we've 148 00:10:15.809 --> 00:10:20.570 chosen makes us stand out and the way that we approach those other things, 149 00:10:20.610 --> 00:10:24.600 as opposed to like changing our positioning and saying, yeah, we do podcasting, 150 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:26.679 we do video, we do blog posts, we U Seo, then 151 00:10:26.720 --> 00:10:30.679 we would sound like everybody else. But at the same time we are doing 152 00:10:30.759 --> 00:10:33.799 a lot of the things that a lot of other agencies are doing, but 153 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:35.789 the way we go about it, in the way we talked about it, 154 00:10:35.950 --> 00:10:39.669 is different and therefore we're perceived differently, and I think that that's not specific 155 00:10:39.789 --> 00:10:43.350 to just us. So I think there are a lot of companies and agencies 156 00:10:43.429 --> 00:10:48.629 that that could think about things that way and change their positioning, whether they're 157 00:10:48.629 --> 00:10:54.580 designing a whole new category or just changing their positioning to take advantage of building 158 00:10:54.580 --> 00:10:58.620 a thought leadership in a narrower niche. But niching down is a little bit 159 00:10:58.620 --> 00:11:01.700 scary for some people. Yeah, a friend of mine has an agency and 160 00:11:01.779 --> 00:11:09.289 he does incredible websites, but he tries to position himself as the digital marketing 161 00:11:09.330 --> 00:11:13.009 guy and I for years have been trying to tell him man like there's a 162 00:11:13.049 --> 00:11:18.879 sea of noise and digital marketing. Become the guy known for websites and like 163 00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:22.399 I don't know of anybody right now, off the top of my head, 164 00:11:22.399 --> 00:11:26.320 that is known for websites. So become known for being the guy that builds 165 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:28.840 be to be websites, and so he's ended up pursuing, you know, 166 00:11:28.919 --> 00:11:35.269 another opportunity right now. But but it's an interesting thought to really think critically 167 00:11:35.309 --> 00:11:39.149 about. What are you establishing your thought leadership in it? I mean, 168 00:11:39.149 --> 00:11:41.990 we'll get it cut in here because I'm already going to have to slice up 169 00:11:43.070 --> 00:11:46.620 everything that you've said to help it fit the format of the talk. I 170 00:11:46.899 --> 00:11:52.019 want us to focus a little bit right now on the definition of thought leadership. 171 00:11:52.379 --> 00:11:56.220 So the question I have for you is, and we these that when 172 00:11:56.220 --> 00:11:58.500 we were talking about why you guys think Dan as a thought leader, why 173 00:11:58.539 --> 00:12:01.809 he wouldn't call himself that. What is a thought leader? Who is a 174 00:12:01.929 --> 00:12:05.250 thought leader? How do you know when when you see one again. I 175 00:12:05.370 --> 00:12:09.850 think that Ven die. I believe a thought leader is an equal mix of 176 00:12:09.929 --> 00:12:15.690 two things, expertise and celebrity. Like and they specifically known there a celebrity 177 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:20.120 because of their expertise. It's not enough to be in a celebrity with expertise, 178 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:24.799 like Shaquille O'Neal, who actually has a doctorate's degree, but he is 179 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:28.320 not known for that doctor it's degree. He's not known for any particular expertise 180 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:31.230 other than his expertise and basketball, of course, but he's not known as 181 00:12:31.269 --> 00:12:35.230 a business leader, even though he could. He could probably give some great 182 00:12:35.269 --> 00:12:39.669 advice in business. He's probably a actually world class business guy, but that's 183 00:12:39.669 --> 00:12:41.029 not what he's known for. He is not a thought leader in the business 184 00:12:41.029 --> 00:12:46.100 space. He's he's a basketball celebrity. To be a thought leader is to 185 00:12:46.220 --> 00:12:52.860 be known in your expertise, and that's that's how I would define a thought 186 00:12:52.899 --> 00:12:56.500 leader. And would you say Dan that shack could be known for his business 187 00:12:56.580 --> 00:13:01.289 expertise if that's the content he chose to put into the world? Absolutely like 188 00:13:01.330 --> 00:13:05.929 if he started producing content around that and started speaking at conferences about it and 189 00:13:05.009 --> 00:13:11.570 even started adding original ideas that are unique to him because maybe somehow he tied 190 00:13:11.649 --> 00:13:16.759 basketball in business into you a unique way to make it more applicable for more 191 00:13:16.840 --> 00:13:20.000 people, just like Donald Miller did with story brand. He took his storytelling 192 00:13:20.039 --> 00:13:24.519 ability, saw how confusing marketing was and brought it together into story brand in 193 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:28.789 a way no one head editor ever really expressed before, and that put him 194 00:13:28.830 --> 00:13:31.350 on the map. He could do the same thing and become a thought leader 195 00:13:31.429 --> 00:13:33.789 in business. Yeah, that but just basketball. But that's a huge opportunity 196 00:13:33.830 --> 00:13:37.389 for him if he wanted to be a thought leader in business. I love 197 00:13:37.429 --> 00:13:39.710 the way you unpack that, damn, because that's kind of what I was 198 00:13:39.750 --> 00:13:43.379 struggling with when I was talking about the rock. It was like, I'm 199 00:13:43.379 --> 00:13:46.299 not saying he's not intelligent or he has good thoughts, and I mean obviously 200 00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:50.299 to get to that level of celebrity you kind of have to understand some things 201 00:13:50.340 --> 00:13:54.379 about entertainment business and that sort of stuff. James, you and I have 202 00:13:54.500 --> 00:13:58.690 talked about how will smith right has kind of like crafted his career and pivoted 203 00:13:58.730 --> 00:14:03.009 and stuff like that, but it's are they known for the specific expertise rather 204 00:14:03.129 --> 00:14:07.929 than just, Hey, I'm a celebrity who maybe has good things to say. 205 00:14:07.450 --> 00:14:11.240 And to throw something else out there from kind of the basketball arena, 206 00:14:11.639 --> 00:14:15.960 maybe you guys would disagree with this, but I think of Mark Cuban. 207 00:14:16.240 --> 00:14:18.399 I don't necessarily think of him like, right off the top of my head, 208 00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:22.960 is like a business thought leader, but I think of him more from 209 00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:26.269 a business and an investor standpoint then I do as the owner of the Dallas 210 00:14:26.309 --> 00:14:31.309 Mavericks, right versus Shack. I think of his career, you know, 211 00:14:31.429 --> 00:14:33.549 with the Lakers and the magic and everything, before I think of his business 212 00:14:33.590 --> 00:14:37.549 acumen, even though it's there. So I think, you know, that's 213 00:14:37.549 --> 00:14:41.500 kind of interesting. And and Donald Miller same thing. I've read his books. 214 00:14:41.539 --> 00:14:43.379 I used to think of him as an author. Now I think of 215 00:14:43.539 --> 00:14:48.220 him as a marketing thought leader and he's also an author as well. And 216 00:14:48.340 --> 00:14:52.500 so it comes back to that positioning. What are you known for? And 217 00:14:52.779 --> 00:14:54.970 you've got to be intentional about what you want to be known for. Back 218 00:14:56.009 --> 00:15:00.929 to James's question to Dan that you're kind of wrestling with right now in establishing 219 00:15:01.009 --> 00:15:03.649 your thought leadership, I actually think there's an important element too, and that 220 00:15:03.730 --> 00:15:07.679 you just can't be known for it, because there's lots of people who are 221 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:09.879 known for something, but they're known for the wrong reasons, that they're really 222 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:13.679 bad at something. Right, so that would be that would be not a 223 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:16.320 that would not be a thought leader. They might be known for being a 224 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:18.480 businessman, but they're known for being a horrible businessman, right, right. 225 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:24.669 I think in sales terms it's like people in what they're doing. Yeah, 226 00:15:24.750 --> 00:15:28.149 I would say grant Cardonne is known in the sales space, but I would 227 00:15:28.190 --> 00:15:31.789 say he's infamous more than he is famous or a thought leader, at least 228 00:15:31.830 --> 00:15:35.100 from my perspective. Other others might disagree with me, but that's the first 229 00:15:35.139 --> 00:15:39.899 one that comes to mind. Would you guys consider influencer to be a synonym 230 00:15:39.980 --> 00:15:43.460 a thought leader, or is it not a synonym? And why? I 231 00:15:43.659 --> 00:15:48.460 think influencer. Gosh, that one's hard for me. An influencer is a 232 00:15:48.500 --> 00:15:52.049 really somewhere between celebrity and a thought leader, and I would say probably closer 233 00:15:52.090 --> 00:15:56.570 to celebrity. And let's be honest, like celebrities have influence. There's a 234 00:15:56.610 --> 00:16:00.690 reason why Nike pursues people for brand deals, but it's not the same level 235 00:16:00.690 --> 00:16:03.610 of influence a thought leader has. A thought leader is more of a narrow 236 00:16:03.970 --> 00:16:07.919 influence, where a celebrity has more of a broad general influence. They might 237 00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:11.399 be able to influence you on your shoes or buying sprite, but they're not 238 00:16:11.440 --> 00:16:17.960 going to be able to, like influence you on vary strategic thoughts or really 239 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:22.429 important things, like Shaquille O'Neal is not going to influence you on your like 240 00:16:22.990 --> 00:16:26.549 big life choices. It's like a thought leader would, James, and one 241 00:16:26.590 --> 00:16:30.149 of our conversations there was a definition of thought leader that you brought up that 242 00:16:30.230 --> 00:16:33.340 I just want to bring up and it's a pretty simple one and it's a 243 00:16:33.500 --> 00:16:38.980 thought leader's famous for their thoughts. I mean, Andy Christadina said it to 244 00:16:40.019 --> 00:16:44.019 me one time. We were doing a media day with him and he said, 245 00:16:44.019 --> 00:16:48.610 James, it's really hard to follow someone's thoughts if they don't have any 246 00:16:48.730 --> 00:16:52.570 unique thoughts. And I think I put it on Instagram or something on my 247 00:16:52.610 --> 00:16:55.929 flight home that that night and we ended up talking about it internally as a 248 00:16:56.009 --> 00:16:59.730 team. But you have to have a uniw point of view. You can't 249 00:17:00.009 --> 00:17:06.480 regurgitate what everyone else in your industry is saying and expect for people to follow 250 00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:10.400 you because of your thoughts. And so I think we have a really interesting 251 00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:15.390 and differentiated perspective on podcasting. And it's now starting to be followed by a 252 00:17:15.470 --> 00:17:19.470 lot of people because it actually works. And I wrote a book about it 253 00:17:19.549 --> 00:17:22.549 and I've got a TEDX talk on it and I talked about on Linkedin all 254 00:17:22.589 --> 00:17:27.190 the time. And there's actually somebody last night that posted on linkedin about how 255 00:17:27.789 --> 00:17:34.180 you shouldn't be using a podcast to get guests on your show because if that's 256 00:17:34.180 --> 00:17:38.220 your only motivation, then you're going to burn out. And and so that 257 00:17:38.380 --> 00:17:41.740 was obviously a fun conversation to have because I was like, well, we'e 258 00:17:41.940 --> 00:17:45.690 six hundred plus episodes deep and of course it's not the only benefit, but 259 00:17:45.849 --> 00:17:49.410 it's a big one. And and other people that have started doing it because 260 00:17:49.450 --> 00:17:53.369 I've been preaching it, we chimed in and like hey, it's working for 261 00:17:53.450 --> 00:17:57.920 me too. And so you're going to get hate whenever you have new thoughts, 262 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:02.559 and then you're also going to create bandwagons and and I think in a 263 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:07.000 lot of ways with content based networking, a bandwagon has been created and if 264 00:18:07.079 --> 00:18:08.720 you if you do it poorly, obviously it's not going to work. But 265 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:11.680 Anyway, I'm going off on a rabbit trail here. No, I like 266 00:18:11.910 --> 00:18:18.029 the direction you're headed because you're talking about the importance of differentiation. So where 267 00:18:18.069 --> 00:18:21.910 if someone could go in that direction? Is Towards contrarianism, or maybe it 268 00:18:22.109 --> 00:18:27.059 bolsters they're already very contrarian personality. Is there a relationship between thought leadership and 269 00:18:27.220 --> 00:18:33.579 contrarianism? Why or why not? I think concure INISM, go ahead and 270 00:18:33.859 --> 00:18:38.940 and just saying the opposite of what's currently being said is one way to establish 271 00:18:40.019 --> 00:18:42.089 that leadership. I think Chris Walker's doing a great job of that right now. 272 00:18:42.130 --> 00:18:47.289 He's saying this is what be tobe marketing has looked like for the last 273 00:18:47.289 --> 00:18:51.890 twenty years. This is what it should look like now, because the way 274 00:18:51.930 --> 00:18:55.920 it's been done is wrong. I've done it at five different companies and it 275 00:18:56.119 --> 00:19:00.039 doesn't work. It's wrong. I think there are other ways to establish that 276 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:03.759 leadership by saying hey, there's a better way. That way works too, 277 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:07.880 that way is effective. Maybe this is a little bit more effective or I've 278 00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:14.190 seen better results doing it this way. But in both of those scenarios you 279 00:19:14.349 --> 00:19:18.589 have a differentiated point of view. You're not doing things the same way that 280 00:19:19.109 --> 00:19:23.269 the people before you or other companies have done them. You're absolutely right, 281 00:19:23.339 --> 00:19:27.460 James, because I had someone come to me talk about a new partnership with 282 00:19:27.700 --> 00:19:33.299 sweet fish just last week and he said I've been following your content, especially 283 00:19:33.339 --> 00:19:36.140 yours and James, and he said you guys put out a lot of content 284 00:19:36.259 --> 00:19:40.450 that is frame breaking, that says, Hey, you probably think about this 285 00:19:40.529 --> 00:19:45.049 this way, but you should maybe think about it this way. and to 286 00:19:45.170 --> 00:19:48.730 me that was really enlightening. And and why he looked at at sweet fish 287 00:19:48.809 --> 00:19:53.839 and looked at us and kind of apply that label of thought leadership. You 288 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:57.240 know, Dale Dupre talks about it in sales all the time. How can 289 00:19:57.279 --> 00:20:03.079 you provide a pattern, interrupt right, whether you picture of it being contrarian 290 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:10.390 or breaking existing frameworks that people have in their mind or interrupting patterns. You 291 00:20:10.470 --> 00:20:14.509 can have expertise, you can seek to be known, but if you're not 292 00:20:14.549 --> 00:20:18.869 saying anything new and therefore if it's new, it's going to be contrary to 293 00:20:18.029 --> 00:20:22.980 something right. And we're not saying that you have to be a jerk to 294 00:20:22.099 --> 00:20:26.619 be a thought leader. You know, James and I are both anagram nines. 295 00:20:26.660 --> 00:20:30.980 We hate conflict right, but we believe passionately about some of the things 296 00:20:32.019 --> 00:20:33.740 that we're saying that like, Hey, if you have a BB podcast, 297 00:20:33.819 --> 00:20:37.930 you should think about the audience. But you should also think about the guest 298 00:20:37.049 --> 00:20:42.250 relationship, and most people skip right over that. And so we are going 299 00:20:42.529 --> 00:20:47.210 contrary to that. But we're not saying Hey, you idiots, don't do 300 00:20:47.410 --> 00:20:49.519 this, do this. Like anyone who says this is a moron. Right, 301 00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:55.559 there's a way to be contrary, very contrarian tactfully, and I think 302 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:57.680 if you hear like Oh, I don't want to be contrarian, but I 303 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:02.960 want to establish my thought leadership or my CEO is not really that personality type, 304 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:04.509 I would say, you know, look at look at our content, 305 00:21:04.670 --> 00:21:08.710 and we found a way to push against things in a way that I don't 306 00:21:08.710 --> 00:21:11.910 think typically rubs people the wrong way. Now, you can't just be afraid 307 00:21:11.950 --> 00:21:15.710 of rubbing anyone the wrong way or you'll never really, you know, share 308 00:21:15.829 --> 00:21:19.660 anything of value. But that's my take on it from my own experience and 309 00:21:19.740 --> 00:21:23.619 I think that just comes down to packaging and a communication and how you how 310 00:21:23.700 --> 00:21:29.700 you package those things. I mean we say often that you should stop branding 311 00:21:29.740 --> 00:21:33.609 your show around your expertise or your company and instead brand the show around your 312 00:21:33.650 --> 00:21:40.250 ideal buyer. Now, is everybody wrong for branding the show around their expertise? 313 00:21:40.490 --> 00:21:44.089 I mean Donald Miller's show is actually called story brand. They couldn't be 314 00:21:44.250 --> 00:21:49.000 more about his expertise and he doesn't interview his ideal buyers. He I didn't 315 00:21:49.079 --> 00:21:53.119 use these massive names, but you look at the context of Donald Miller, 316 00:21:53.319 --> 00:21:57.839 he was famous before he started his agency. He can get Dave Ramsey on 317 00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:03.069 his show, he can get, you know, these massive names on his 318 00:22:03.190 --> 00:22:07.109 podcast and he's grown a huge audience of the show that end up driving a 319 00:22:07.269 --> 00:22:11.190 lot of business for him. So for him in that context, he shouldn't 320 00:22:11.230 --> 00:22:15.109 take our advice like the are advice. Is Not the better way for him. 321 00:22:15.230 --> 00:22:19.180 It's not for everyone and I think whenever I talk about that I make 322 00:22:19.259 --> 00:22:22.779 sure that I hold my idea with an open hand. Is To me tells 323 00:22:22.819 --> 00:22:25.900 me all the time, like I want to. I want to hold this 324 00:22:26.059 --> 00:22:29.500 with an open hand because I know that it's not like what I'm saying is 325 00:22:29.700 --> 00:22:33.569 not right for everybody all the time. And when you say something is if 326 00:22:33.890 --> 00:22:38.049 it is true all the time for everyone, that's when you end up looking 327 00:22:38.089 --> 00:22:42.529 like an asshole. Dan. And also it comes down to knowing who you're 328 00:22:42.569 --> 00:22:48.920 serving right, because if you're trying to get everyone to follow your thoughts, 329 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:52.480 then you're going way to broad. It comes back to that niche conversation. 330 00:22:52.119 --> 00:22:57.039 We're trying to serve B tob marketers, and so we know that our podcasting 331 00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:03.750 advice does not fit for Joe Rogan and Tim Ferris and and Gary v even 332 00:23:04.150 --> 00:23:08.150 we know who we're talking to now within that doesn't mean that every it's going 333 00:23:08.190 --> 00:23:11.950 to be a fit for a hundred percent of that niche, but it's going 334 00:23:11.990 --> 00:23:14.940 to be closer right. It might be eighty or ninety percent, as opposed 335 00:23:14.940 --> 00:23:17.740 to, hey, we're trying to go here and say everybody should do this, 336 00:23:17.900 --> 00:23:21.460 when we're really only talking to ten percent of that really broad audience. 337 00:23:21.460 --> 00:23:25.859 So it comes back to knowing who you're communicating to and where you're trying to 338 00:23:26.019 --> 00:23:29.849 establish your thought leadership in what niche that you're serving. I love this. 339 00:23:30.009 --> 00:23:33.609 I feel like you guys have covered so many different angles of how people should 340 00:23:33.609 --> 00:23:37.569 be thinking about thought leadership and what activities they should be doing. Dan, 341 00:23:37.730 --> 00:23:41.000 how would you measure thought leadership? That's a great question. I'm thinking now 342 00:23:41.799 --> 00:23:47.200 the others. You guys can chime in if you want to. I just 343 00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:48.920 felt like it would be such a great question for you, Dan, because 344 00:23:49.000 --> 00:23:55.400 you're all about measure it. I feel I am the the metrics that come 345 00:23:55.480 --> 00:24:00.029 to mine, our vanity metrics, and I don't really feel really demonstrate true 346 00:24:00.109 --> 00:24:04.630 thought leadership. Like the amount of followers you have aren't necessarily the amount of 347 00:24:04.710 --> 00:24:08.710 thought leadership, the thought leadership you have. So what are the thing on 348 00:24:08.789 --> 00:24:14.059 they have? Probably the percentage of engagement you have with the content you are 349 00:24:14.140 --> 00:24:18.180 putting out that's original is probably a good indicator. If you're throwing out a 350 00:24:18.339 --> 00:24:25.450 post on linkedin and it's seen by Tenzero people and one thousand engage with it, 351 00:24:26.809 --> 00:24:30.970 you have some clearly like with that little tiny niche people you have some 352 00:24:30.130 --> 00:24:34.529 really strong engagement, like you have some strong thought leadership. If you have 353 00:24:34.769 --> 00:24:38.680 a hundred thousand people falling you and only a small fraction of them are engaging 354 00:24:38.799 --> 00:24:42.680 with you, then your thought leaderships a little less. It's a reason why 355 00:24:42.759 --> 00:24:48.599 you'll see celebrities on twitter and they will not get nearly the amount of retweets 356 00:24:48.640 --> 00:24:52.509 and likes and engagement with their tweets as someone like, maybe like a fame 357 00:24:52.789 --> 00:24:59.470 famous pastor like John Piper, will have an extraordinary amount of engagement on twitter. 358 00:24:59.509 --> 00:25:02.829 He's got more thought leadership, but of course he's a pastor and a 359 00:25:02.869 --> 00:25:04.950 Christian in a very particular vein of theology. A lot of people are really 360 00:25:04.990 --> 00:25:08.460 big fans of his and are raving fans of his, so he has more 361 00:25:08.500 --> 00:25:14.019 thought leadership than someone like Ashton coutcher. Right, is just percentage of engagement 362 00:25:14.380 --> 00:25:17.940 is actually a probably a decent measure. Can you guys think of any other 363 00:25:17.980 --> 00:25:22.529 measurements? I like that. I Scott Ingram looked to do that in the 364 00:25:22.609 --> 00:25:26.609 Bab sales space with the roundup that he did in key. He really broke 365 00:25:26.650 --> 00:25:27.730 that down. He's like, why, I look at some people with thirtyzero 366 00:25:27.930 --> 00:25:34.170 followers and nine reactions and comments on a post. It's a really low engagement 367 00:25:34.250 --> 00:25:38.640 percentage versus others that might have eight thousand followers and a much higher percentage. 368 00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:41.720 So I think that's one. I think it's something that you alluded to earlier 369 00:25:41.799 --> 00:25:47.000 as well, Dan. That's it's quantitative but it's also qualitative. What sort 370 00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:51.509 of conversations are you being pulled into? Are you being tagged when someone's asking 371 00:25:51.670 --> 00:25:55.390 for Hey, who knows someone here? Right, and you could count those 372 00:25:55.430 --> 00:25:57.789 up, but then you also have to look at it. Is that the 373 00:25:57.950 --> 00:26:03.910 right are they pulling me or our company into the right conversations where we're trying 374 00:26:03.950 --> 00:26:07.220 to establish our thought leadership. And then what are the words that that people 375 00:26:07.259 --> 00:26:11.579 are using when they come to you? Right I was sharing with our team 376 00:26:12.059 --> 00:26:17.220 the fact that on brand new sales calls, people that just come inbound and 377 00:26:17.380 --> 00:26:18.450 say, Hey, I'm a fan of sweet fish, and I'm like, 378 00:26:19.250 --> 00:26:23.009 you've never had a conversation with anyone at sweet fish, yet you're going to 379 00:26:23.089 --> 00:26:27.130 use the word fan. So I think, I think looking at those words 380 00:26:27.170 --> 00:26:32.690 that are being used to describe you publicly and privately. What conversations are you 381 00:26:32.849 --> 00:26:36.680 being pulled into? Where do you come top of mind to the folks that 382 00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:41.079 you're trying to reach? And then you know what sort of engagement percentage? 383 00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:42.799 Now you could do that on Linkedin, you could look at other sorts of 384 00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:47.990 channels, but I think engagement is really is a really good one versus follower 385 00:26:48.190 --> 00:26:51.190 counts and that sort of stuff. Dan, I have one last question in 386 00:26:51.390 --> 00:26:55.349 the world of how we define thought leadership, and maybe each of you could 387 00:26:55.349 --> 00:26:57.950 give one answer if you've got one. Is there someone that you would consider 388 00:26:59.029 --> 00:27:03.980 to be a thought leader of thought leadership? Josh Stemley From Influence Er Inc? 389 00:27:03.299 --> 00:27:08.539 Why? So, one he's got a lot of different, really differentiated 390 00:27:08.660 --> 00:27:14.940 positions on how to build thought leadership. I think all of his content come 391 00:27:15.099 --> 00:27:19.730 from a place of being extremely helpful. He wants to help people build influence 392 00:27:21.250 --> 00:27:26.089 for their personal brand. He's put together a conference, he is writing a 393 00:27:26.210 --> 00:27:30.960 book on it. A lot of his content on Linkedin is is about this 394 00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:36.359 topic. A lot of his blog you subscribe to his email list. He's 395 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:41.680 very consistent with his message. He's developed a framework. It's what is it? 396 00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:45.349 The seven systems of influence Logan? Is that what it's called? Yeah, 397 00:27:45.430 --> 00:27:48.029 believe so. So I think. I think that's indicative of someone that's 398 00:27:48.029 --> 00:27:51.990 the thought leader. I don't know that it's necessarily a measuring stick, but 399 00:27:52.109 --> 00:27:55.349 if you've developed a framework around your thinking, that's why you see a lot 400 00:27:55.390 --> 00:28:00.859 of thought leaders that are written books because they've developed systems and frameworks that easily 401 00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:06.619 packaged themselves into books. So content based networking being that for us. So 402 00:28:06.779 --> 00:28:11.339 yeah, that's who I would say is a thought leader around thought leadership would 403 00:28:11.339 --> 00:28:14.930 be Josh Stemley. Actually went searching into this question and I couldn't find a 404 00:28:15.009 --> 00:28:21.089 good answer and when Josh Stimley was recommend dead, I agreed. I think 405 00:28:21.410 --> 00:28:25.809 he's probably producing the best content on the topic right now. Awesome Logan. 406 00:28:25.930 --> 00:28:30.359 You have a unique answer or just you agree with that? Hope for boring. 407 00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:33.559 I'm going to make it three hundred forty three. I would agree Josh's 408 00:28:33.599 --> 00:28:38.400 content is fantastic and with the intent of being helpful. I think that, 409 00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:44.630 you know, influencer, thought leader, whatever the case, is just good 410 00:28:44.710 --> 00:28:48.789 content. Marketing. We talked about all the time is the intent is to 411 00:28:48.829 --> 00:28:52.950 be helpful, not to drive sales. If you are trying to establish your 412 00:28:52.990 --> 00:28:56.740 brand as a thought leader and all of your content is put out with the 413 00:28:56.940 --> 00:29:02.740 intent to convert, you're doing it wrong. Now, Guy Tonodanardi will tell 414 00:29:02.779 --> 00:29:06.700 you, Hey, I put out content with the intent of being helpful because 415 00:29:06.779 --> 00:29:10.289 that will drive sales. But but we jump the gun, we try and 416 00:29:10.529 --> 00:29:12.809 take, you know, step one and get to step ten without all the 417 00:29:12.930 --> 00:29:18.250 steps in the middle. And if you are looking to establish thought leadership, 418 00:29:18.529 --> 00:29:22.730 you're not going to jump to step ten of Legion in thirty days. You've 419 00:29:22.769 --> 00:29:26.480 got US stop that. So sorry, soap box there, but that's my 420 00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:30.000 rent on that Logan. You just described what you would consider it to be 421 00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:34.359 a negative trend in how people think about thought leadership, and that gets right 422 00:29:34.519 --> 00:29:40.029 into where I want to go, which is philosophy around how we should be 423 00:29:40.109 --> 00:29:44.109 thinking about thought leadership. So one of my questions here is what are some 424 00:29:44.309 --> 00:29:48.869 positive and negative trends that you see on Linkedin and other places as it relates 425 00:29:48.910 --> 00:29:53.259 to that leadership? I think people think that they can established that leadership without 426 00:29:53.460 --> 00:30:00.660 actually doing something, and so I think a lot of reasons why people loop 427 00:30:00.700 --> 00:30:06.220 us into conversations around be TOB podcasting, why people list us on you know, 428 00:30:06.380 --> 00:30:10.289 thought leaders and BB marketing, is because we've done on six hundred plus 429 00:30:10.529 --> 00:30:17.289 interviews with bb marketers. We've actually done something. I've built probably the largest 430 00:30:17.529 --> 00:30:21.880 podcast agency, BB PODCAST agency, in the world, and so I've actually 431 00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:27.359 done something and I think a lot of people are getting sucked into the sexiness 432 00:30:27.720 --> 00:30:33.000 of because of Lincoln's platform being so easy to get organic reach. Think a 433 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:37.630 lot of people are getting sucked into being a you know, influence or thought 434 00:30:37.670 --> 00:30:45.349 leader on linkedin without actually having done something. And and when you haven't done 435 00:30:45.390 --> 00:30:48.470 something, it's really hard to have expertise, true expertise, in a thing 436 00:30:49.059 --> 00:30:53.220 if you haven't actually done something. And so I'm thinking of a few people. 437 00:30:53.220 --> 00:30:56.500 I don't want to call anybody out right now, but I'm thinking of 438 00:30:56.539 --> 00:31:00.980 a few people. They get a lot of engagement on their content, but 439 00:31:02.099 --> 00:31:06.130 there their contents not focused around anything in particular. I couldn't really tell you 440 00:31:06.849 --> 00:31:10.769 what are they known for. I wouldn't necessarily know when to loop them in 441 00:31:11.529 --> 00:31:15.890 on a conversation thread on linkedin because I don't really know what they're known for. 442 00:31:17.329 --> 00:31:19.960 They're know I know who they are. I know them and they're not 443 00:31:21.160 --> 00:31:25.200 shack they're not a celebrity. I mean there's there somebody I know because I'm 444 00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:30.400 on Linkedin and they get lots of engagement, but it's on a lot of 445 00:31:30.480 --> 00:31:33.549 different topics, kind of all over the place, and it doesn't really truly 446 00:31:33.630 --> 00:31:38.750 differentiate them in a zone of expertise. And so I would not necessarily call 447 00:31:38.829 --> 00:31:42.789 those people thought leaders. Say we also run into a lot of pretenders who 448 00:31:42.829 --> 00:31:48.420 have paid to become thought leaders, but they've outsourced everything. It's one thing 449 00:31:48.500 --> 00:31:52.259 to pay someone to ghost write your book, but you have a ton of 450 00:31:52.299 --> 00:31:55.579 video content for them to tap into, but it's another thing when you've paid 451 00:31:55.619 --> 00:32:00.259 someone to do everything for you. Everything's ghost written, the blogs, most 452 00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:04.369 of the PODCASTS, your book, even the articles that were written for a 453 00:32:04.410 --> 00:32:07.089 UF Po and Forbes and stuff like that, just so you can have the 454 00:32:07.170 --> 00:32:09.250 logos up on your website. It looks good at for US clients, but 455 00:32:09.730 --> 00:32:15.920 people know it doesn't take long to Suss that out right. I've had authors 456 00:32:15.000 --> 00:32:20.240 that I've interviewed and I'm like this, this doesn't feel like when I read 457 00:32:20.279 --> 00:32:23.160 your book. This does not feel the same right and I think I know 458 00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:27.720 I went off on a rant earlier, but I just have to go back 459 00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:30.710 to the the lead gend thing. I think a lot of people here thought 460 00:32:30.750 --> 00:32:35.589 leadership. That's the new trend in be to be marketing. My job is 461 00:32:35.670 --> 00:32:38.109 to drive sales. So how do I get how can I flip the switch 462 00:32:38.470 --> 00:32:42.349 right? How can I flip the switch to thought leadership? That's going to 463 00:32:42.589 --> 00:32:46.460 it immediately drive revenue. It is not a short term play. It is 464 00:32:46.579 --> 00:32:52.900 not a ninety day campaign. You can't run a campaign on thought leadership. 465 00:32:52.900 --> 00:32:58.180 It has to be this is how we're doing marketing going forward. It is 466 00:32:58.569 --> 00:33:04.410 to me thought leadership is almost the next evolution that we're into of inbound marketing, 467 00:33:04.769 --> 00:33:07.849 because I think we've gotten off track with inbount marketing saying hey, I 468 00:33:08.049 --> 00:33:12.250 will put out content right. This is what hub spot preached back in the 469 00:33:12.289 --> 00:33:15.119 day. I'll put out content, people will be willing to give me their 470 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:19.200 contact information. Therefore I can stay in touch with them give them more content. 471 00:33:19.559 --> 00:33:23.000 We've morphed that into all put out content just to get an email and 472 00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:28.069 boom, you know, hard right. Turn into sales, sales, sales. 473 00:33:28.230 --> 00:33:30.789 Now, Hey, I'm a sales guy. Right, I get it 474 00:33:30.990 --> 00:33:35.829 right, and I think marketing thought leaders that that I agree with. Like 475 00:33:35.990 --> 00:33:39.750 Sang Grumbajer will say, marketing is a function of sales. They they marketing 476 00:33:39.789 --> 00:33:44.180 exists to drive sales. If we're not doing that, then what are we 477 00:33:44.259 --> 00:33:47.180 doing here? But again we're skipping steps. We're saying, Hey, I'm 478 00:33:47.180 --> 00:33:51.339 going to put out this content, get an email, boom, hard, 479 00:33:51.380 --> 00:33:54.769 right, Hook. You gotta have some Jabs, and the role of thought 480 00:33:54.809 --> 00:34:00.170 leadership to get away from the negative is you got to throw more jabs. 481 00:34:00.250 --> 00:34:02.809 You just gotta add value. Somebody told me the other day. I was 482 00:34:02.890 --> 00:34:07.050 really surprised. You guys put out that thought leadership playbook, that eight step 483 00:34:07.130 --> 00:34:10.480 framework that I shared on linked into a blog post that one of our writers 484 00:34:10.519 --> 00:34:14.800 put together from some of the content we've been putting out. There and he's 485 00:34:14.840 --> 00:34:17.119 like, I'm surprised you didn't get that content and I'm like, I would 486 00:34:17.159 --> 00:34:22.039 rather have more people consume it and say, Hey, these guys at sweetfish 487 00:34:22.199 --> 00:34:25.349 know what they're talking about and I'm going to come back to them when I'm 488 00:34:25.389 --> 00:34:29.869 ready, as opposed to all right, we got five emails, as opposed 489 00:34:29.909 --> 00:34:34.550 to Fiftyzero people seeing it. I would rather that and them come to us 490 00:34:34.590 --> 00:34:37.739 when they're ready, because that leads to better results and ultimately more sales. 491 00:34:38.260 --> 00:34:45.300 So for somebody that's heavily tripping up on the thought leadership as lead Gen trap, 492 00:34:45.900 --> 00:34:47.420 what should the goal of thought leaders should be? For A BE TO 493 00:34:47.460 --> 00:34:52.739 BE COMPANY? To me, I think of thought leadership is free education. 494 00:34:52.530 --> 00:34:55.369 I don't I agree with Logan. I don't think it should be a behind 495 00:34:55.409 --> 00:35:00.690 a gate. I think you should be trying to influence and educate as many 496 00:35:00.730 --> 00:35:06.610 people as you possibly can, and so you want to create zero friction between 497 00:35:06.650 --> 00:35:09.360 the people that you want consuming your content and the people you're trying to influence. 498 00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:14.239 So obviously I wrote a book and I don't make that book free, 499 00:35:15.000 --> 00:35:20.000 but I pretty much talked about every principle in the book publicly, either on 500 00:35:20.079 --> 00:35:24.710 our blog or our podcast or our or on my linkedin profile, and so 501 00:35:25.150 --> 00:35:29.829 if you follow a lot of my content you're probably not going to be shocked 502 00:35:29.909 --> 00:35:31.869 at anything you read in the book. And there are a couple stories in 503 00:35:31.949 --> 00:35:36.099 there that I may not have shared publicly, but I'm not intentionally trying to 504 00:35:36.179 --> 00:35:40.219 hide those things. It's a book. Is just a nice packaging for an 505 00:35:40.260 --> 00:35:46.340 idea and a framework. But I think thought leadership is free education to as 506 00:35:46.420 --> 00:35:51.530 many people that you're trying to influence as possible. And I think on the 507 00:35:51.570 --> 00:35:54.849 measurement piece, kind of to answer earlier about how you measure your own thought 508 00:35:54.889 --> 00:35:59.690 leadership. If the question here is how do you measure the impact a thought 509 00:35:59.730 --> 00:36:04.639 leadership on sales, similar to that that first question. It's not just one 510 00:36:04.719 --> 00:36:07.280 thing. It has to be. You know, we've been touting for so 511 00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:13.840 long that everything's trackable and digital marketing is it. Is Everything trackable on a 512 00:36:13.960 --> 00:36:16.519 one to one basis? Not necessarily right, but there are things that you 513 00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:22.869 can see that are leading indicators. Your mixture of outbound versus inbound pipeline. 514 00:36:23.190 --> 00:36:25.630 Look at the last quarter, look at the last two quarters. Are you 515 00:36:25.829 --> 00:36:30.309 are you seeing inbound take up a higher percentage? That's probably a good indicator 516 00:36:30.349 --> 00:36:36.579 that your thought leadership efforts are working. Are you seeing branded search climb as 517 00:36:36.619 --> 00:36:38.940 you put out more educational content? So I mean those are kind of in 518 00:36:39.019 --> 00:36:42.940 the weeds, but I think those are very tactical things that you could do 519 00:36:43.539 --> 00:36:45.659 to see are we trending in the right direction. It's not going to be 520 00:36:46.250 --> 00:36:51.489 hey, how many leads did we get off of that podcast? Another thing 521 00:36:51.530 --> 00:36:53.530 that we're recommending people do is, you know, I've had people say, 522 00:36:53.530 --> 00:36:55.969 Hey, we want to gate our podcast. I'm like, Nope, just 523 00:36:57.449 --> 00:37:00.880 don't do that. That's that's dumb. But what you can do is your 524 00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:05.960 podcast, for instance, fits in brand awareness and thought leadership in the top 525 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:09.719 of the funnel. There's no reason you shouldn't be using that to drive people 526 00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:15.550 to maybe gated content that is more decision based lower funnel. And so are 527 00:37:15.590 --> 00:37:20.829 you seeing more acceleration? Are you seeing faster deals? Are you seeing, 528 00:37:21.150 --> 00:37:23.550 you know, more people go to your lower funnel content? Those, I 529 00:37:23.710 --> 00:37:29.030 think, can be leading indicators that your thought leadership efforts are working. I 530 00:37:29.150 --> 00:37:30.940 think, as I thought about the answer, and it took me a second 531 00:37:30.980 --> 00:37:35.219 to really think about it, I realize it's because it actually affects everything. 532 00:37:35.780 --> 00:37:39.059 It affects the whole funnel. It affects your customer retention, it affects everything. 533 00:37:39.099 --> 00:37:44.409 It affects whether someone's going to open your email because they trust you more 534 00:37:45.010 --> 00:37:47.210 than the email with maybe even a more intriguing subject line next to it. 535 00:37:47.690 --> 00:37:51.250 But no, no, this one comes from this person and I like them, 536 00:37:51.449 --> 00:37:52.769 I trust them. I want to hear what they think about this. 537 00:37:53.769 --> 00:37:59.079 It's going to lead to increase sales. It's going to lead to being able 538 00:37:59.079 --> 00:38:04.000 to hire better talent and keep them longer because they trust you and like you 539 00:38:04.159 --> 00:38:08.159 more. So it kind of affects everything. It's like it's like lube for 540 00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:12.760 the engine. It's just going to help the thing run smoother. Great. 541 00:38:13.190 --> 00:38:15.670 So I think we've got a great framework for the why. Let's talk about 542 00:38:15.670 --> 00:38:19.949 the how, and I really want to get practical here on things that sweetish 543 00:38:20.030 --> 00:38:24.949 is doing. So how do you identify thought leadership or who you're going to 544 00:38:25.070 --> 00:38:30.739 cultivate thought leadership in within your organization? So we're actually doing we we have 545 00:38:30.820 --> 00:38:36.619 a meeting later today to kind of kick off what we were about to start 546 00:38:36.659 --> 00:38:40.530 doing on Linkedin and we pick in five people from our team, myself, 547 00:38:42.130 --> 00:38:46.210 Dan Logan, Kelsey Montgomery, our creative director, and bill read, our 548 00:38:46.289 --> 00:38:53.289 CEO, and we're effectively going to be pushing a an enormous amount of really 549 00:38:53.409 --> 00:39:00.519 helpful content for beb marketers through those five distribution channels, and those distribution channels 550 00:39:00.559 --> 00:39:05.280 being the personal profile of those five people on Linkedin. We've decided to go 551 00:39:05.360 --> 00:39:09.989 all in on Linkedin and we're using different pillar pieces of content. So we're 552 00:39:09.989 --> 00:39:13.989 using BEB growth, which is a pillar piece of content for us, a 553 00:39:14.070 --> 00:39:16.590 show that we do daily for be tob marketers, this show actually that you're 554 00:39:16.630 --> 00:39:22.510 listening to. We do content camp, which is a monthly virtual event that 555 00:39:22.630 --> 00:39:28.260 we're starting next month. We do bb podcasting Qa once a month where we 556 00:39:28.340 --> 00:39:31.659 invite everybody to come in and ask US questions about Beb podcasting. We do 557 00:39:31.739 --> 00:39:36.980 a customer mastermind call that we're about to do tomorrow. We've it's now the 558 00:39:37.019 --> 00:39:39.449 third time we've done that. That's a monthly thing. We're taking all of 559 00:39:39.570 --> 00:39:45.250 these different longer form pieces of content and we are busting it up into micro 560 00:39:45.489 --> 00:39:51.489 content and distributing that through the personal profiles of these five people that I just 561 00:39:51.610 --> 00:39:58.119 listed earlier. And and so I think the way we are doing thought leadership 562 00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:06.199 is by repurposing pillar content layered on top of the expertise of those five people, 563 00:40:06.440 --> 00:40:07.789 and it's going to be really fun figuring out how to do that. 564 00:40:07.909 --> 00:40:12.550 But one of the things that I'm thinking about is going to Dan in this 565 00:40:12.750 --> 00:40:15.510 meeting that we do later this afternoon, because he's one of the five I've 566 00:40:15.869 --> 00:40:19.590 and saying Dan, if you had to pick seven to ten things that you 567 00:40:20.070 --> 00:40:23.699 find yourself talking about often, whether it's hey, I think I found a 568 00:40:23.780 --> 00:40:28.780 better way to do this thing, or I think people in the in the 569 00:40:28.820 --> 00:40:32.420 space or doing this thing wrong, or these are mistakes that I see people 570 00:40:32.539 --> 00:40:37.289 making, or these are things I think people should start doing or these are 571 00:40:37.329 --> 00:40:43.170 things I think people should stop doing. Having some Goto questions to ask the 572 00:40:43.449 --> 00:40:49.010 experts within your for digital walls and figuring out what are the themes. When 573 00:40:49.010 --> 00:40:52.960 you think about Gary V's thought leadership, Gary says the same eleven or twelve 574 00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:58.079 things over and over and over again. He talks about gratitude, talks about 575 00:40:58.079 --> 00:41:02.079 kindness, he talks about working hard, talks about empathy. It's very consistent 576 00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:07.670 and I think if you can first identify what are those, what are the 577 00:41:07.789 --> 00:41:10.030 what's the pillar content you're going to create? But then what are the pillar 578 00:41:10.110 --> 00:41:15.550 ideas that each individual person that you're building thought leadership for in your team? 579 00:41:16.030 --> 00:41:21.460 What are those ideas, and then can you plan content around those ideas? 580 00:41:21.500 --> 00:41:23.780 So if we figure out with Dan, what are his seven to ten things 581 00:41:23.820 --> 00:41:28.900 that he really gets fired up about, and then we can kind of cattle 582 00:41:29.059 --> 00:41:35.090 prod those ideas on a regular basis so that he's consistently talking about those ideas, 583 00:41:35.170 --> 00:41:37.010 fleshing them out in different contexts. This is what it means for the 584 00:41:37.130 --> 00:41:40.530 creatives. This is what it means for the data driven marketers. This is 585 00:41:40.650 --> 00:41:45.449 what it means in a manufacturing company. This is what it means in a 586 00:41:45.570 --> 00:41:50.119 SASS company, and you've seen that. That's what's Gary v's done. I 587 00:41:50.199 --> 00:41:52.119 mean he's he puts out a hundred piece of content a day, but he's 588 00:41:52.119 --> 00:41:55.960 really only talking about eleven or twelve things, and it's because he puts so 589 00:41:57.079 --> 00:42:01.429 much context around. Yes, the advice he's giving, but the advice he's 590 00:42:01.469 --> 00:42:07.469 giving is consistent and we all know him for things because he repeats himself over 591 00:42:07.630 --> 00:42:10.230 and over and over and over again, and instead of being annoying, it's 592 00:42:10.230 --> 00:42:15.820 actually super engaging because of all the context he's at the share. It actually 593 00:42:15.820 --> 00:42:19.940 helps his message stick. Yes, absolutely, I mean we think, I 594 00:42:20.019 --> 00:42:22.340 mean there's so many things that play here. There's psychology. We think that 595 00:42:22.500 --> 00:42:27.500 our memories are like a filing system. They're actually a lot more like velcrow. 596 00:42:27.820 --> 00:42:30.130 So the more hooks that you give, the stickier that something is. 597 00:42:30.409 --> 00:42:35.369 That's why you know a tune from a children song that you heard last time 598 00:42:35.449 --> 00:42:38.289 you were six, you can start singing it, but you can't quote someone 599 00:42:38.369 --> 00:42:42.329 that you were just on a zoom call with five minutes ago. Right. 600 00:42:42.650 --> 00:42:44.920 But what you said there, I think, is so true. I'm glad 601 00:42:44.960 --> 00:42:46.280 you called that out and I just want to like double down on that real 602 00:42:46.280 --> 00:42:50.039 quick. I talked to a lot of marketing teams, you guys that are 603 00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:52.440 getting ready to start a podcast, and they're like, well, we could 604 00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:55.320 come up with six episodes over the next six months. One monthly is not 605 00:42:55.360 --> 00:42:59.030 going to get you there. But that's a whole other conversation on podcasting as 606 00:42:59.030 --> 00:43:01.989 a channel. But I see the reason for that is one thinking about the 607 00:43:02.070 --> 00:43:06.110 production value, which is another conversation, but the other thing that ties to 608 00:43:06.269 --> 00:43:09.030 this is that they're like, we're going to run out of things to say, 609 00:43:09.550 --> 00:43:14.659 and it's because they haven't systematically gone through what you just just ride there, 610 00:43:14.699 --> 00:43:19.500 James. What are as a company and as individuals and the leadership team 611 00:43:19.539 --> 00:43:22.860 or whoever we are developing as thought leaders? What are the five to ten 612 00:43:23.340 --> 00:43:27.170 themes? What are the ideas that get us fired up, that we have 613 00:43:27.289 --> 00:43:30.610 expertise on? You know, if you're a sales leader and you really have 614 00:43:30.769 --> 00:43:35.530 developed processes around hiring, that's that's one of your things and you there's something 615 00:43:35.610 --> 00:43:38.809 that you see in sales hiring that's just wrong. Now you can it doesn't 616 00:43:38.809 --> 00:43:42.519 mean you can just talk about that once. Talk about it for us to 617 00:43:42.559 --> 00:43:45.000 ask company, talk about it for, you know, a financial advisor firm. 618 00:43:45.079 --> 00:43:47.960 Talk about it in in this context and that, and you'll start to 619 00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:52.800 realize that your content will get better, because that's where also a lot of 620 00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:57.630 people go wrong is not putting out enough content but then not contextualizing it so 621 00:43:57.750 --> 00:44:01.469 that it feels like this linkedin post was for this niche, of my niche, 622 00:44:01.789 --> 00:44:07.989 and that's where you start to develop thought leadership because people realize, hey, 623 00:44:07.110 --> 00:44:10.300 this is for me. They're not just regurgitating the same thing. There's 624 00:44:10.300 --> 00:44:15.019 the same thread running through all of it, but putting it in different context 625 00:44:15.059 --> 00:44:20.099 and that's why I think our behind the curtain series have been most, you 626 00:44:20.219 --> 00:44:23.179 know, downloaded, engaged with most feedback given. Is because we get really, 627 00:44:23.219 --> 00:44:28.210 really granular into this is something that happened in the last week and people 628 00:44:28.329 --> 00:44:31.730 think a thought leadership at these high level big ideas, but where you develop 629 00:44:31.809 --> 00:44:36.929 it is by bringing it down to where the rubber meets the road and unpacking 630 00:44:36.969 --> 00:44:40.039 it in real life scenarios and you go kind of up and down. I 631 00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:44.679 mixing metaphors there, but that's what it made me think of. I love 632 00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:47.280 that concept of bringing it down to where the rubber meets the road and talking 633 00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:52.190 about it on several different areas. What I'd like to do really quickly because 634 00:44:52.269 --> 00:44:54.750 we had a conversation, James and I had a conversation about this and I 635 00:44:54.789 --> 00:44:59.429 thought this would be super helpful for anybody WHO's listening who wants to go. 636 00:44:59.469 --> 00:45:04.429 Okay, what are the questions that I can ask myself or someone on my 637 00:45:04.510 --> 00:45:07.500 team to help cultivate thought leadership? I've got a list here. I'm going 638 00:45:07.500 --> 00:45:09.659 to read really quickly and if there's anything that you want to add to it, 639 00:45:09.739 --> 00:45:14.699 add to it. And it's not just about contrarianism either. There's definitely 640 00:45:14.739 --> 00:45:20.179 ones that will cultivate a contrary position. But we've got what's a commonly held 641 00:45:20.260 --> 00:45:24.650 belief you disagree with? What's something everyone is doing that you found a better 642 00:45:24.690 --> 00:45:30.250 way to do? What are mistakes you see people in your industry making? 643 00:45:30.090 --> 00:45:34.969 What's something in your industry no one is doing that they should be doing? 644 00:45:35.840 --> 00:45:40.280 What's an untapped resource everyone in your industry has that they haven't effectively tapped? 645 00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:45.159 As it relates to your expertise, why should people in your industry start doing 646 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:50.309 or stop doing x thing? Is there anything that you would add to that 647 00:45:50.510 --> 00:45:54.269 list? Yes, I would say what's unique about your backstory that makes you 648 00:45:54.389 --> 00:45:59.429 different from everybody else in your field? And this could be related, but 649 00:45:59.550 --> 00:46:06.019 maybe not. What other expertise topics do you bring to the table that are 650 00:46:06.260 --> 00:46:09.380 completely different from what other other experts in your filled bring? Like if you're 651 00:46:09.820 --> 00:46:15.340 an expert at chemistry but you also on an expert in woodworking, how does 652 00:46:15.380 --> 00:46:19.449 that play out like? Is there is there ties there? Sometimes the weirdest 653 00:46:19.489 --> 00:46:22.289 things fit together and ways you would never expect. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes 654 00:46:22.329 --> 00:46:25.050 there's no connection, there's no they don't help each other. I don't know 655 00:46:25.050 --> 00:46:29.250 if that one does. was probably bad example, but they do. They 656 00:46:29.329 --> 00:46:32.920 often do, and actually a lot of the big breakthroughs will come because of 657 00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:39.599 finding finding relations between unrelated topics that are unique that no one else can duplicate 658 00:46:39.920 --> 00:46:44.480 because they're not going to pursue down or track down those two different things like 659 00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:47.110 you did, or maybe three different things, maybe more, but those things 660 00:46:47.110 --> 00:46:51.550 added to that. I would add to that to me that. What are 661 00:46:51.710 --> 00:46:58.989 some stories that have cemented your position on things you believe in your industry? 662 00:46:59.750 --> 00:47:04.139 Now, this could be cut out of this episode if it doesn't work, 663 00:47:04.139 --> 00:47:07.139 but I am curious about it just I think it'd be helpful to hear, 664 00:47:07.500 --> 00:47:12.460 for somebody to hear this like literally play out in real time. So, 665 00:47:12.860 --> 00:47:16.329 Dan, what's something that everyone is doing that you found a better way to 666 00:47:16.409 --> 00:47:22.170 do writing blog post without tracing backlinks, but I didn't come up with that. 667 00:47:22.289 --> 00:47:25.170 So it's not like a unique contribution I made. It's just that the 668 00:47:25.210 --> 00:47:30.039 guy who made the contribution isn't he's in the SEO space, but he's in 669 00:47:30.119 --> 00:47:35.320 a space that isn't seen by professional marketers. He's in the Internet marketing spaces, 670 00:47:35.320 --> 00:47:38.360 named Jim Harmer, and I just know I knew enough to know that 671 00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:43.920 what he had figured out was golden and the rest of the industry hadn't. 672 00:47:44.309 --> 00:47:49.510 So that's not my unique value. I'd say something else that what is it 673 00:47:49.590 --> 00:47:53.829 unique? Unique things we've seen is that we're talking about. It's something that 674 00:47:54.030 --> 00:47:58.699 you found a better way to do that everyone's trying to do. That was 675 00:47:58.780 --> 00:48:00.900 the question I would I would push back a little bit, Dan, on 676 00:48:00.980 --> 00:48:07.820 you thinking that taking that guy's thought and applying it to your context and the 677 00:48:07.900 --> 00:48:12.019 world you live in, because he's not a voice in the space. I 678 00:48:12.260 --> 00:48:16.289 think that that's a valid concept to talk about like. That's a content theme 679 00:48:16.369 --> 00:48:20.690 when we talk later this afternoon, and that's a content theme I will want 680 00:48:21.010 --> 00:48:23.849 you to explore as we're building out your personal brand and content for your personal 681 00:48:23.929 --> 00:48:28.400 brand. Yeah, because it goes back to something James said way back at 682 00:48:28.400 --> 00:48:31.360 the beginning of this conversation. You have to have done something right and James 683 00:48:31.400 --> 00:48:35.440 and I have been touting, you know, the results that you drove for 684 00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:39.960 Bethany, the university you're at. It's not just like, Hey, you 685 00:48:40.199 --> 00:48:44.510 found this way to do blogging differently and you talk about it a lot. 686 00:48:44.829 --> 00:48:49.110 You've led teams, you've done it yourself, you've you've done both of those 687 00:48:49.269 --> 00:48:52.630 and seen results and therefore you're passionate about it, and so I think all 688 00:48:52.710 --> 00:48:57.099 of that mixture covers checks a lot of those boxes we were talking about earlier. 689 00:48:57.139 --> 00:49:00.739 Yep, because I good and I'd say the other thing that I do 690 00:49:00.940 --> 00:49:04.420 is just integrating digital marketing better. I don't really know how to. I've 691 00:49:04.420 --> 00:49:06.659 been trying to figure out how to talk about this, but I haven't really 692 00:49:06.659 --> 00:49:08.420 actually found a unique way to like come at it. But there's a way 693 00:49:08.460 --> 00:49:13.130 that I approach digital market it's just different and it's because I'm a generalist that 694 00:49:13.449 --> 00:49:16.650 goes fairly deep on all the different mediums, so I can figure out how 695 00:49:16.690 --> 00:49:20.289 to integrate them better. I don't know if that's like a just a personal 696 00:49:20.889 --> 00:49:23.010 skill I have in my pocket or if that's a framework that I can push 697 00:49:23.010 --> 00:49:27.079 out there, and that's something I'm still figuring out. Yeah, I would 698 00:49:27.079 --> 00:49:31.159 say to me, for us, the position that that we've come to as 699 00:49:31.159 --> 00:49:35.639 a business is that you, as a be tob company, you should not 700 00:49:35.800 --> 00:49:40.789 be branding your podcast around your expertise. You should be branding your podcast around 701 00:49:40.829 --> 00:49:45.670 the persona of your ideal customer, and the reason you want to do that 702 00:49:45.190 --> 00:49:50.550 is because you want your ideal customer to actually listen to your show and we're 703 00:49:50.670 --> 00:49:53.619 experts and be to be podcasting. But the reality is most to be to 704 00:49:53.659 --> 00:49:59.059 be marketers are only thinking about be to be podcasting. It's a very small 705 00:49:59.099 --> 00:50:05.460 sliver of their brain space. They're thinking about it maybe for, you know, 706 00:50:05.780 --> 00:50:09.050 a month while they're trying to determine what vendor they want to use to 707 00:50:09.130 --> 00:50:14.530 produce their show or whatever. They've got a million other things are thinking about. 708 00:50:14.889 --> 00:50:21.090 So we are drastically limiting our ability to influence and educate our audio buyer 709 00:50:21.480 --> 00:50:27.400 by only talking about our expertise. Instead branding the show be to be growth, 710 00:50:27.920 --> 00:50:32.920 we're now position to actually collaborate with our ideal buyers and have them contribute 711 00:50:32.920 --> 00:50:38.269 to our content, building relationships with them, and it's those relationships we build 712 00:50:38.309 --> 00:50:43.110 do the content collaboration process that actually allows us to drive new business with them, 713 00:50:43.150 --> 00:50:45.789 because people want to do business with people they know, I can trust, 714 00:50:45.230 --> 00:50:49.630 and if they've collaborated with us, they've contributed to this show as a 715 00:50:49.789 --> 00:50:53.460 guest, then that's a where now friendly with them. We're now friends with 716 00:50:53.579 --> 00:50:59.340 them. They've contributed great content, we've produced that content and now we it's 717 00:50:59.380 --> 00:51:02.539 it sets us up to have a conversation with them when and if they're ready 718 00:51:02.659 --> 00:51:06.809 to produce a podcast themselves, so that we're in that consideration set. And 719 00:51:06.889 --> 00:51:08.690 sometimes they decide to do it in house, sometimes they decide to go with 720 00:51:08.730 --> 00:51:13.409 another partner, a lot of times they decide to choose us. But had 721 00:51:13.449 --> 00:51:15.610 we branded the show around you know, had we called it the sweet fish 722 00:51:15.650 --> 00:51:22.559 media podcast or the business of BB podcasting, we ostracize ourselves from being able 723 00:51:22.599 --> 00:51:25.800 to interview our ideal clients because our clients are not experts and BB podcasting. 724 00:51:27.079 --> 00:51:31.119 So we can't collaborate with them on our show and build relationship with them through 725 00:51:31.239 --> 00:51:36.829 that content collaboration because we've made the show too narrow. We've made it all 726 00:51:36.869 --> 00:51:40.469 about us. Also from a listenership perspective, because so many people with podcasting 727 00:51:40.469 --> 00:51:45.510 are trying to build an audience as opposed to just trying to build relationships with 728 00:51:45.630 --> 00:51:49.460 their ideal clients through content based networking. I think you should be doing both. 729 00:51:49.900 --> 00:51:53.059 But if, if you are trying to attract a listener base, it's 730 00:51:53.179 --> 00:51:58.739 really hard to do that by building it around your expertiset. Very hard, 731 00:51:58.820 --> 00:52:02.610 not impossible. Again, Donald Miller's done it, but he also talks about 732 00:52:02.610 --> 00:52:07.809 a lot of things on the story gram podcast that are way outside storytelling. 733 00:52:08.250 --> 00:52:15.840 He's taught effectively talking about business growth and he's overcome the name story brand by 734 00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:20.719 by interviewing these massive names. So that's, I think, a pretty unique 735 00:52:20.760 --> 00:52:24.679 perspective on podcasting because and anytime we talked about it, it ends up bringing 736 00:52:24.719 --> 00:52:28.840 a lot of you know, people are like, what, I shouldn't be 737 00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:31.510 talking about my own expertise. The other thing that I think is a unique 738 00:52:31.550 --> 00:52:37.309 stance that we take is you should have multiple cohosts on your podcast, and 739 00:52:37.429 --> 00:52:43.110 the reason you should have multiple cohost doing independent episodes, not just doing episodes 740 00:52:43.190 --> 00:52:46.500 like word word doing right now, where you've got several cohosts on the line. 741 00:52:47.059 --> 00:52:52.139 I think you should have multiple cohost doing independent interviews because it allows you 742 00:52:52.179 --> 00:52:57.059 to create a lot more content. We call this collective thought leadership. This 743 00:52:57.139 --> 00:53:00.369 is going to be my next book, and this idea of going further faster 744 00:53:00.530 --> 00:53:06.570 by going together. If you can get together with a lot of other people 745 00:53:06.769 --> 00:53:10.530 in your industry that you respect and you feel like they have quality insights to 746 00:53:10.610 --> 00:53:16.880 share and you all can come together to create content from one content platform or 747 00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:22.920 content channel, which for us it's BB growth. It's very strategic for you 748 00:53:22.039 --> 00:53:27.230 to own that channel, which is why we own be tob growth, and 749 00:53:27.510 --> 00:53:30.590 a lot of the people that we have bring on as contributors, ongoing contributors 750 00:53:30.670 --> 00:53:36.190 or ongoing cohost for the show. They also have their own channels, but 751 00:53:36.389 --> 00:53:42.300 it's smart for us to work together and build each other's channels because it's multiple 752 00:53:42.539 --> 00:53:46.340 smart people creating content for a channel that ultimately is trying to attract a following, 753 00:53:46.460 --> 00:53:51.820 and so I think by having multiple cohost both internal and external, that's 754 00:53:51.860 --> 00:53:55.369 a very unique and differentiated position on BB podcasting that I don't hear anybody else 755 00:53:55.409 --> 00:53:59.489 talking about. And and the reason we have that position is because we've done 756 00:53:59.489 --> 00:54:02.409 it ourselves and I think we have ten plus cohosts, some BB growth, 757 00:54:04.130 --> 00:54:07.010 internal and external, and it's allowed us to put out a daily show and 758 00:54:07.050 --> 00:54:10.719 I don't know of any other daily podcast somebody to be marketing. I've got 759 00:54:10.880 --> 00:54:14.679 to hear one. I've already kind of gone on a rant on and it's 760 00:54:14.760 --> 00:54:17.159 just kind of it's it's a pretty big debate and I have in the land 761 00:54:17.239 --> 00:54:22.199 on one side, and that's tending towards ungating more of your content than you 762 00:54:22.280 --> 00:54:24.710 are putting behind a gate. So I won't I won't go too much into 763 00:54:24.750 --> 00:54:28.710 that. The thing that I think, I think about a lot, I 764 00:54:28.750 --> 00:54:32.070 would love to see more people doing but I get tons of pushback, and 765 00:54:32.150 --> 00:54:37.670 it comes from my own experience, is that podcasting should not be something that 766 00:54:37.909 --> 00:54:43.579 lives in a marketing, communications and or PR silo over here. It should 767 00:54:43.579 --> 00:54:47.980 be sales and marketing working together. You should have your sales people as a 768 00:54:49.099 --> 00:54:52.409 regular cohost on your podcast. You should be working with them to figure out 769 00:54:52.610 --> 00:54:57.610 how do we feature people from our target accounts? Again, not to just 770 00:54:57.690 --> 00:55:00.650 immediately turn to a right hook, but what is the problem with going to 771 00:55:00.769 --> 00:55:06.130 those going to those target accounts and using as that as part of your ABM 772 00:55:06.250 --> 00:55:10.840 strategy, to interview that Hrroh or that CIO or that VP of marketing? 773 00:55:12.280 --> 00:55:15.360 And I see a lot of people say, well, sales people can't be 774 00:55:15.480 --> 00:55:17.920 on a podcast, we don't trust them to have those conversations. You're trusting 775 00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:22.550 them to have the most important conversations for your organization that have a direct impact 776 00:55:22.630 --> 00:55:28.429 on revenue and just because it's being recorded and pushed out publicly, you don't 777 00:55:28.429 --> 00:55:30.590 trust them. All of a sudden you really need to think through who you're 778 00:55:30.590 --> 00:55:34.909 paying to be your front light sales people. And I feel like I can 779 00:55:34.949 --> 00:55:37.019 say that because, hey, I had up sales for sweet fish and I've 780 00:55:37.059 --> 00:55:40.780 been a host of our podcast, a cohost of our podcasts, for almost 781 00:55:40.780 --> 00:55:47.340 two years and I see the benefits of it, both from establishing my personal 782 00:55:47.500 --> 00:55:52.090 brand and my people knowing me within BB marketing, which two years ago no 783 00:55:52.210 --> 00:55:55.650 one knew my name in the BB marketing space. And then, you know, 784 00:55:55.809 --> 00:56:00.010 kind of the SASS bubble that we kind of live in because we work 785 00:56:00.050 --> 00:56:02.809 with a lot of SASS tech companies and I see how that has worked. 786 00:56:04.090 --> 00:56:07.159 But I just see so many people, you know, at the very most 787 00:56:07.280 --> 00:56:09.280 they're going to sales and saying hey, give it as a target account list, 788 00:56:09.360 --> 00:56:13.719 will maybe reach out to them, but they're not working hand in hand 789 00:56:13.880 --> 00:56:17.280 with their sales department in the way that they execute on their podcast, from 790 00:56:17.670 --> 00:56:22.429 thinking about the guests to looping them in and having them as contributor, a 791 00:56:22.510 --> 00:56:27.750 cohost. And I get the pushback of well, also, maybe we don't 792 00:56:27.789 --> 00:56:30.670 trust sales to have those conversations or, you know, there's a lot of 793 00:56:30.750 --> 00:56:34.300 turnover and sales so we don't want to invest in the personal brand of that 794 00:56:34.500 --> 00:56:39.179 individual. And I say well, I've seen teams invested in the personal brand 795 00:56:39.380 --> 00:56:43.380 in at someone at the VP or c level. You know, I think 796 00:56:43.460 --> 00:56:45.940 of drift and I think of Dave Gearhart, you know, seeking wisdom when 797 00:56:45.940 --> 00:56:50.210 they were really pushing out a lot of content on that podcast. It was 798 00:56:50.530 --> 00:56:53.969 dave canceled DC and Dave Gearhart DG. That we're front and center. Right 799 00:56:54.090 --> 00:56:59.489 and now. I think of DG and I still think of drift, even 800 00:56:59.489 --> 00:57:02.679 though he's moved on and he's at a different company. The impact of giving 801 00:57:02.800 --> 00:57:08.679 someone a person to connect with behind the logo is still powerful, even if 802 00:57:08.719 --> 00:57:13.840 it's only short term and they move on. I just think that there's a 803 00:57:14.000 --> 00:57:19.429 huge missed opportunity where sales and marketing talk about alignment, they talked about harmony, 804 00:57:19.829 --> 00:57:22.070 and yet in this area of B Tob podcasting, I see a lot 805 00:57:22.110 --> 00:57:28.789 of organizations not leveraging the opportunity to work together and go further faster. I 806 00:57:28.989 --> 00:57:32.179 love that Logan. Okay, to the audio editor and to the video editor. 807 00:57:32.340 --> 00:57:37.019 I'm calling a quick timeout so this pet section we can cut out. 808 00:57:37.059 --> 00:57:38.539 I just want to check in on you guys. I know where over time, 809 00:57:38.900 --> 00:57:42.579 so I can wrap this up now if we'd like to. I wanted 810 00:57:42.619 --> 00:57:45.050 to ask you how you're feeling and ask you if there's anything that I haven't 811 00:57:45.050 --> 00:57:49.969 Ted up that you wish I had. I think that conversation we're having last 812 00:57:49.969 --> 00:57:55.489 night to me around how David Cancel has built thought leadership around leadership, an 813 00:57:55.570 --> 00:58:02.480 entrepreneurship. Never talks about chat bots, yet everyone knows that he's the CEO 814 00:58:02.519 --> 00:58:07.719 of drift, which is a company that does chat bots. They've called it 815 00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:12.360 something fancy and they call that conversation marketing, but effectively that's to coming into 816 00:58:12.400 --> 00:58:16.909 this jobots and I need so I think that's an interesting angle and that's something 817 00:58:16.989 --> 00:58:21.949 we're trying to figure out. Like my thesis is we need to be putting 818 00:58:21.949 --> 00:58:27.300 out content that's helpful for the B Tob Marketer and not content it's necessarily related 819 00:58:27.340 --> 00:58:30.179 to sales for Logan or, you know, entrepreneurship and leadership for me, 820 00:58:30.500 --> 00:58:36.500 or creative direction for Kelsey or operations for bill, because we're not trying. 821 00:58:37.179 --> 00:58:39.659 Those are not the people that buy our service. So the my thesis is 822 00:58:39.860 --> 00:58:44.170 the bulk of our content should be about be to be marketing so that we 823 00:58:44.610 --> 00:58:51.889 can attract the right audience to to our brand. But clearly David cancel has 824 00:58:51.969 --> 00:58:57.679 attracted a lot of ideal buyers to drift by doing something different. So, 825 00:58:58.719 --> 00:59:00.239 Dan, what about you? I did think of one more thought leader of 826 00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:04.840 thought leaders, but if you thought no one would think of him instantly as 827 00:59:04.840 --> 00:59:07.039 a thought leader of thought leaders. But he really is probably the biggest thought 828 00:59:07.039 --> 00:59:10.469 leader of thought leaders in my opinion. And Seth Goden, if you just 829 00:59:10.550 --> 00:59:15.150 think about the books he's written around purple cow tribes, Lynchpin like the guy 830 00:59:15.309 --> 00:59:19.349 is a thought leader of thought leaders and I he's probably makes it in a 831 00:59:19.429 --> 00:59:23.030 more list of influencers of thought leaders. And I'd probably say anybody else if 832 00:59:23.070 --> 00:59:25.659 I had to guess. I don't know, man, I don't think he's 833 00:59:25.699 --> 00:59:31.260 influence more thought leaders Modern Day then Gary B. I mean the amount of 834 00:59:31.460 --> 00:59:37.179 insanely famous you tubers that will tell you that they started because Gary be told 835 00:59:37.219 --> 00:59:40.610 them to start, the the people that have popped on Tick Tock and snapchat 836 00:59:40.769 --> 00:59:45.489 because Gary v was bullish on being on those platforms, like Chris Walker, 837 00:59:45.730 --> 00:59:52.449 deeply influenced by Gary B, John Barrows deeply influenced by Gary B. and 838 00:59:52.920 --> 00:59:58.480 I just don't think seth Goden has figured out social the way Gary has. 839 00:59:59.159 --> 01:00:05.239 His books are very influential, but his social presence is very disconnected. It's 840 01:00:05.440 --> 01:00:08.190 quote, he doesn't do social. He doesn't do social. He bought he 841 01:00:08.309 --> 01:00:12.949 writes books. Yeah, no, he does social, but it looks very 842 01:00:13.070 --> 01:00:16.710 bland. It's quite he's clearly got assistance that are turning, you know, 843 01:00:16.909 --> 01:00:20.789 his emails into what? Yeah, he just post, but he's not actually 844 01:00:20.869 --> 01:00:24.380 interacting social yet. He's syndicating. Yeah, that's not doing social and I 845 01:00:24.940 --> 01:00:30.820 think to me at least, his stuff is a little bit disconnected. Disconnected 846 01:00:30.940 --> 01:00:37.889 meaning very lofty ideas, but he's not putting out enough content to put around 847 01:00:37.889 --> 01:00:43.530 the context to those ideas to make them actually actionable. So I read, 848 01:00:43.769 --> 01:00:45.369 you know, I was on his email as for a while. is obviously 849 01:00:45.409 --> 01:00:50.000 very subjective. He's not, you know, I like some of his thoughts 850 01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:52.679 and I've loved some of his books, but I wouldn't say I'm operating my 851 01:00:53.000 --> 01:00:59.679 business based on Seth Golden Principles because he just doesn't put out enough content to 852 01:00:59.800 --> 01:01:01.599 really influence me. I don't know. I think it'd be interesting to do 853 01:01:01.639 --> 01:01:06.429 a survey and find out, but I think he's more influential. I don't 854 01:01:06.429 --> 01:01:08.030 know if he's more influential than ry V, but I think you'd be pretty 855 01:01:08.070 --> 01:01:13.909 close to thought I think specifically to people who are thought leaders and not just 856 01:01:14.110 --> 01:01:19.820 influencers. I'd say he's probably up there. I would argue he is almost 857 01:01:20.260 --> 01:01:23.179 as well known. I don't think he's as wellknown with younger folks. I 858 01:01:23.219 --> 01:01:27.780 don't think he is wellknown with Gen Z. for sure as here those guys, 859 01:01:27.820 --> 01:01:31.099 I would most Gen z aren't thought leaders yet. But I answers. 860 01:01:31.260 --> 01:01:37.130 I just don't think that. Seth, I think he's known. I don't 861 01:01:37.130 --> 01:01:43.929 think he's as influential as Gary. That's my hot dig you guys realize this? 862 01:01:44.130 --> 01:01:47.400 Behind the curtain of the behind the curtain is goal, and I'm tempted 863 01:01:47.480 --> 01:01:52.559 to put it in the episode. I mean we're recording, so always document, 864 01:01:53.000 --> 01:01:58.559 document over create, right, Yep, that's another interesting angle we could 865 01:01:58.559 --> 01:02:01.590 go is, like document over create is. I think that might be one 866 01:02:01.630 --> 01:02:07.269 of the few things Gary Talks about that I have a little bit of pushback 867 01:02:07.309 --> 01:02:10.710 against. I'm not documenting my journey as an entrepreneur because that's not interesting to 868 01:02:10.750 --> 01:02:15.300 who we're trying to sell to, like bb marketers. They're not entrepreneurs. 869 01:02:15.539 --> 01:02:21.500 So me documenting my journey as an entrepreneur and building a business is not super 870 01:02:21.579 --> 01:02:24.019 relevant or helpful to the type of people that buy our product or service. 871 01:02:24.380 --> 01:02:30.329 So saying I should yeah, yeah, yeah, you you documenting your daytoday 872 01:02:30.489 --> 01:02:35.050 even more so than any of it. But I don't think it's necessarily a 873 01:02:35.369 --> 01:02:39.570 complete diversion. It's take that that approach and molding it to your situation. 874 01:02:39.809 --> 01:02:45.159 So, James, I would say that our behind the curtains episodes lean into 875 01:02:45.400 --> 01:02:49.519 documenting over creating. You know, we did one recently about how we pulled 876 01:02:49.519 --> 01:02:52.719 together our first mastermind group and some of the tech we use. Because he 877 01:02:52.880 --> 01:02:57.000 that was something we just went through. It is applicable to our audience now 878 01:02:57.159 --> 01:03:00.230 what you're going through and like figuring out, you know, forecasting, you 879 01:03:00.349 --> 01:03:06.949 know, and recasting the budget from a CEO perspective, working with with our 880 01:03:07.030 --> 01:03:12.190 CEO. We're not documenting that because it's not as impactful for the marketer. 881 01:03:12.349 --> 01:03:15.380 So picking and choosing a little bit right. I think we are still doing 882 01:03:15.500 --> 01:03:21.900 that, but we're doing it with some intentionality. Yeah, I'm thinking key 883 01:03:21.980 --> 01:03:24.900 takeaways and then I wrap it up and I include what we just what I 884 01:03:25.019 --> 01:03:29.170 just said. I wasn't going to include. We didn't go through like the 885 01:03:29.250 --> 01:03:35.090 normal list of like thought leadership tactics. I wanted to hit ways to execute 886 01:03:35.170 --> 01:03:38.210 thought leadership campaigns and I felt like that would get pretty tactical. Yeah, 887 01:03:38.210 --> 01:03:43.239 we didn't, and we didn't. We didn't hit it. James covered it, 888 01:03:43.519 --> 01:03:46.840 covered quickly like five things, six things that sweet fish is doing, 889 01:03:47.280 --> 01:03:51.840 and I just knew that. I just knew that we wouldn't have time to 890 01:03:51.920 --> 01:03:53.960 cover everything. I can, I can quickly talk through that. I mean 891 01:03:54.079 --> 01:03:59.190 it's writing books, it's writing blog post, it's having a podcast, it's 892 01:03:59.550 --> 01:04:02.989 having a video series, it's being active on Linkedin or twitter or pick like 893 01:04:03.150 --> 01:04:10.340 a particular social channel. Those are the big youtube channel, like. It's 894 01:04:10.460 --> 01:04:14.980 different types of content distribution and so if you want to build that leadership, 895 01:04:15.139 --> 01:04:20.619 you need to be sharing your thoughts and unique perspective on one of those channels. 896 01:04:20.659 --> 01:04:24.570 I don't think you need to be doing them everywhere. Honestly. I 897 01:04:24.690 --> 01:04:29.210 mean we're we've recently made the decision to go all in on linkedin because we 898 01:04:29.289 --> 01:04:32.969 weren't we weren't saying very good results on twitter or instagram. But I have 899 01:04:33.090 --> 01:04:39.159 written a book and that's certainly helpful and we do blog regularly. That's a 900 01:04:39.199 --> 01:04:42.800 different part of our team that's focused on that, and so we're doing a 901 01:04:42.880 --> 01:04:45.360 few of them. But I think it takes all the time to build up 902 01:04:45.360 --> 01:04:48.440 to that and it's and it's hard to tell people to do everything because it's 903 01:04:48.480 --> 01:04:51.719 overwhelm coming and then they end up doing nothing. How do you manage the 904 01:04:51.840 --> 01:04:57.550 tension between multiple distribution channels versus go all in on the things that work? 905 01:04:57.630 --> 01:05:01.590 I think you start. You start with one until you feel comfortable and you 906 01:05:01.710 --> 01:05:05.510 get into a rhythm. I've even struggled this with this on Linkedin, where, 907 01:05:05.909 --> 01:05:09.780 you know, I tell people all the time like stop, stop wringing 908 01:05:09.900 --> 01:05:14.019 your hands over every Um and in scripting your podcast episodes, like just hit 909 01:05:14.059 --> 01:05:17.340 record and go. And yet I find myself on Linkedin I'm a little bit 910 01:05:17.380 --> 01:05:20.730 more like I'm not ready to post that I need to, and so I 911 01:05:20.769 --> 01:05:24.730 end up getting in my own way. And so I think part of that 912 01:05:24.929 --> 01:05:29.730 is deciding what are the core channels where your audience is. How can you 913 01:05:29.929 --> 01:05:33.570 create start with one, get into a rhythm and then expand slowly? For 914 01:05:33.650 --> 01:05:38.360 a long time we in have a youtube channel right, but now that it's 915 01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:41.639 like okay, adding this on doesn't feel like as much and it's going to 916 01:05:41.679 --> 01:05:45.559 give us enough reach for the work that's going to be put into contextualize it 917 01:05:45.679 --> 01:05:49.750 for that channel. We're ready there now. So you start narrow and you 918 01:05:50.070 --> 01:05:55.630 you broaden out, somewhat slowly, and I think you have. It's somewhat 919 01:05:55.670 --> 01:06:00.389 slowly if you're like us and you're a bootstrapped agency. But you know and 920 01:06:00.670 --> 01:06:03.300 and I think I don't. I think Gary V's bootstrapped. I don't know 921 01:06:03.340 --> 01:06:09.019 that he's raised money, but he's closing mammoth deals with companies like chase. 922 01:06:09.420 --> 01:06:13.179 So for him to be able to invest in thirty people on his personal brand 923 01:06:13.219 --> 01:06:16.980 and dedicate people to channels, he's got people that specifically focus on memes, 924 01:06:17.019 --> 01:06:20.530 I think. And so that's how it's played out for us, like as 925 01:06:20.650 --> 01:06:25.769 we've grown, we've got dedicated resources now. The reason we were able to 926 01:06:26.010 --> 01:06:28.769 make the effort that we did with instagram is because we had a dedicated, 927 01:06:28.809 --> 01:06:31.369 full time person that was focusing on all the time. We're now diverting her 928 01:06:31.610 --> 01:06:38.480 over to Linkedin and helping us with editorial planning and really pushing out our content 929 01:06:38.920 --> 01:06:42.920 on linkedin because we have a dedicated resource to help us with that we've got 930 01:06:43.039 --> 01:06:47.030 dedicated but the reason we got started with podcasting is because we had dedicated resources 931 01:06:47.829 --> 01:06:53.150 that were audio engineers, and the reason we got good at writing blog contents 932 01:06:53.190 --> 01:06:56.670 because we have dedicated resources doing the writing. It's not Logan and I writing 933 01:06:56.710 --> 01:07:00.619 the blog posts and editing the audio and putting it on Youtube, and so 934 01:07:00.739 --> 01:07:05.940 it frees Logan and eye up to actually have thoughts and talk about them because 935 01:07:06.019 --> 01:07:11.539 we've got a team around us that is producing that content on our behalf, 936 01:07:12.219 --> 01:07:15.010 like Gary's doing it. One thing that I did want to draw out of 937 01:07:15.090 --> 01:07:18.010 you guys before we close this out. It's something that you said to me 938 01:07:18.050 --> 01:07:21.329 before, James, and it's coming off of the heels of the fact that 939 01:07:21.369 --> 01:07:28.210 there's a lot of people that are googling thought leadership books, thought leadership conferences 940 01:07:28.289 --> 01:07:30.400 and those sorts of things, and you said something interesting. You said you 941 01:07:30.519 --> 01:07:35.719 don't. You don't build thought leadership by reading books on thought leadership. You 942 01:07:35.920 --> 01:07:42.159 built that leadership because you yeah, because you're actually an expert and because you've 943 01:07:42.559 --> 01:07:46.949 solved problems in your industry like you've reverse engineered solutions that you are trying to 944 01:07:47.949 --> 01:07:51.429 figure out yourself, and then you go and share those things with others. 945 01:07:51.510 --> 01:07:56.829 So the reason I think Gary V is having the moment he's having is because 946 01:07:56.909 --> 01:08:01.139 he was heads down for I don't know, fifteen year or's actually building his 947 01:08:02.099 --> 01:08:06.579 the the business of his dad's liquor store, wine shop or whatever, and 948 01:08:06.980 --> 01:08:11.139 so he actually put his head down and did the work. And a lot 949 01:08:11.179 --> 01:08:14.570 of people I see, they want thought leadership for the sake of thought leadership. 950 01:08:14.610 --> 01:08:17.170 So they're they're they're looking for books on thought leadership at it's like. 951 01:08:17.930 --> 01:08:25.970 And if instead you focused on what, what have we actually done, and 952 01:08:26.369 --> 01:08:30.720 how do we tell the story of what we've done and how we like how 953 01:08:30.800 --> 01:08:33.000 we got there and we're the frameworks we used. I don't know, Dan, 954 01:08:33.079 --> 01:08:35.680 might have a different thought on that. And you've got a furrowed brow 955 01:08:35.720 --> 01:08:40.319 which makes me want to as futs in your head actually have to jump off 956 01:08:40.359 --> 01:08:44.109 the call. Probably why the Furrow Brow? Because I'm like, I have 957 01:08:44.189 --> 01:08:46.310 a client con five minutes on. I need to spend like three minutes looking 958 01:08:46.310 --> 01:08:49.630 at their website. You Go, Dan. What's your key takeaway that you 959 01:08:49.750 --> 01:08:54.989 want a listener to get from this episode? I think I want them to 960 01:08:54.989 --> 01:08:58.539 understand the value of becoming a thought leader and how it helps all of our 961 01:08:58.939 --> 01:09:05.500 marketing and beyond in their company. It's worth pursuing and can be integrated into 962 01:09:05.500 --> 01:09:10.850 the marketing activities you're already doing. You're just putting a faith in there and 963 01:09:10.970 --> 01:09:14.609 making some tweaks to it. So attach that to your content marketing and you 964 01:09:14.890 --> 01:09:17.289 you'll start to see your thought leadership grow. It's just a different it's just 965 01:09:17.449 --> 01:09:20.210 a tweak on what you're already doing to build your brand. You're just adding 966 01:09:20.250 --> 01:09:24.720 people to it. What about you Logan? What's the key takeaway? I 967 01:09:24.800 --> 01:09:29.319 would say that you know that it's going to take time, but it is 968 01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:32.159 going to be worth it. You are going to see people say, I 969 01:09:32.279 --> 01:09:36.119 am a fan of your brand, I'm a fan of yours, I love 970 01:09:36.239 --> 01:09:41.550 what you're CEO is doing on Linkedin, those sorts of things. When you 971 01:09:41.789 --> 01:09:44.310 hear those, you know that you are on the right track. Like we 972 01:09:44.390 --> 01:09:47.590 talked about, it's not a ninety day campaign. It's not one metric. 973 01:09:47.750 --> 01:09:51.310 You can look at. What is our thought leadership quotient? Right? It 974 01:09:51.510 --> 01:09:55.979 is a lot of things, but therefore it's going to impact a lot of 975 01:09:56.100 --> 01:09:59.699 things. Just like Dan set James, I think you have to figure out 976 01:09:59.859 --> 01:10:03.260 what is your differentiated point of view, and so sit back and think a 977 01:10:03.500 --> 01:10:08.770 ask yourself the questions that we asked earlier. You know what something what's a 978 01:10:08.810 --> 01:10:12.689 commonly held beliefs that I passionately disagree with? What's something that people should start 979 01:10:12.770 --> 01:10:15.569 doing that they're not doing now? Asking those kind of questions and figuring out 980 01:10:15.930 --> 01:10:19.329 what are your content theames? What are the ten to twelve things that you 981 01:10:19.369 --> 01:10:24.880 could talk about consistently and start to build content around those themes? I'm going 982 01:10:24.880 --> 01:10:28.039 to make sure that those questions are in the description of this episodes. You 983 01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:30.000 can quickly reference them. Thank you, guys so much for listening to this 984 01:10:30.159 --> 01:10:33.039 episode of be to be growth. Again. We've been talking to James Carver, 985 01:10:33.239 --> 01:10:36.189 our CEO, Logan Lyles, our director of partnerships and dance, and 986 01:10:36.189 --> 01:10:41.350 Chaz, our director of audience wrote. They are all super active on Linkedin 987 01:10:41.470 --> 01:10:45.029 and would love to keep this conversation going with you. there. Is there 988 01:10:45.069 --> 01:10:47.829 anywhere else that you would want to send listeners? James, we just started 989 01:10:47.869 --> 01:10:51.939 on youtube, so search BB growth show on Youtube and we'd love to. 990 01:10:53.500 --> 01:10:56.619 We'd love to it you start to grow that following. We're really excited about 991 01:10:56.619 --> 01:11:01.020 it. Awesome. Thank you, guys so much. I hate it when 992 01:11:01.060 --> 01:11:05.170 podcasts incessantly ask their listeners for reviews, but I get why they do it, 993 01:11:05.529 --> 01:11:10.289 because reviews are enormously helpful when you're trying to grow a podcast audience. 994 01:11:10.609 --> 01:11:13.529 So here's what we decided to do. If you leave a review for be 995 01:11:13.609 --> 01:11:17.010 tob growth and apple podcasts and email me a screenshot of the review to James 996 01:11:17.050 --> 01:11:20.880 at Sweet Fish Mediacom, I'll send you a signed copy of my new book, 997 01:11:20.920 --> 01:11:25.560 content based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. 998 01:11:26.039 --> 01:11:28.920 We get a review, you get a free book. We both win. 999 -->