Transcript
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Welcome into be tob growth. I'm
your host, Benjie Block. Today we're
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excited to be joined by EVA SOS
own. She is the head of marketing
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at Argyle. evil. Welcome into
BTB growth. Thank you. Thank you
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for having me. Absolutely so let's
give some context, just a quick,
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maybe thirty two sort of twitter length
Bioeva to what your life looks like now
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and a little bit of your history. Maybe. Yeah. So I'm ahead
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of marketing at ARGYLE. Argyle is
and API for connectivity of Employment Records.
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So we, in short, connect
employment records with the businesses that need to
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access them financial institutions, with the
consent of individuals who owns that data.
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My background is actually in Apis and
developer tools. Previous to Argyle, I
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ran marketing for a identity of urification
API. Was At twill Yoh, which
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was the first API to ever go
public, and a century, which is
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open source developer platform. So comes
deep in the developer land. Yes,
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yes, and you can have a
really interesting perspective to bring from that land,
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which were grateful to get to tap
into today. So here's where I
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want to take us. Is a
tension that many feel as a business grows
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is there's like this constant sort of
consideration and tension between building and what we
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could buy right like what's out there
already. When we were offline we were
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having this interesting conversation really a case
study that you are a part of in
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your time at century, and I
wonder if we just start there and sort
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of have you walk us through some
of your findings and some of that where
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that conversation originated in that case study. Centuries a very interesting business because it's
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a sort of grass roots and it's
founding. So it started as a pure
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open source tool. It was just
open source code sitting on Github that the
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two founders were maintaining while working at
other jobs, and the platform started growing
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in their number of contributors. People
started using centuries code for air monitoring and
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debugging sort of across different personal projects, like hackers that are building something for
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themselves, and that ended up becoming
so popular that the founders turned it into
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a business. So that sort of
centuries legacy is that it started as this
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grassroots initiative among developers turned into a
business, both enterprise and self serf business,
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which is an awesome as a marketer, is awesome thing to come into
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because you already have some brand recognition, you already have traction in the market
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and it's about how do you monetize
that? But an interesting drawback that we
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found is that we needed to equip
our sales team to compete paid century versus
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open source century, and that was
something that concepted a lot of yeah,
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I can up in a lot of
conversations of like well, why should I
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pay for this when there is an
actively maintained open source library that I can
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utilize for free? Why should I
be paying you for this? And it
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actually became such a big thing that
our biggest competitor was ourselves. So like
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we lost more deals in the sales
pipeline to open source century than to anyone
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else in the market. HMM.
So how are you thinking about that internally,
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as you guys are watching that happen? Yeah, at first it was
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like, Oh, this is weird, this you know, this person wants
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to go open source. Like they've
been in our they've learned so much,
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like about the tool in our in
our sales conversation and demos, and like
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now they're just going open source.
And we just started seeing it happen more
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and more and realize okay, this
is just a trend, this isn't a
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one off and people aren't understanding the
value of buying and out of the box
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solution. And so that was a
cool project I got to work on of
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building sales enablement around why you would
want to build versus why you would want
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to buy. And what are the
benefits of buying? What are the costs
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of building? It's not free.
It's a different way of thinking about cost
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right. So, yeah, these
questions emerge. True value of buy,
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true cost of build? Great questions
to be asking from several different vantage points.
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Talk me through what those questions meant
is to you in that in that
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season and for four century as a
company. So at first, when people
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would be considering open source, they
would think, oh, this is free,
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like if I could save seventyzero a
year and still get the same benefit,
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and like why, what did I
not do that? And basically,
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how we broke it down in terms
of a competitive analysis, if you will,
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of how are you benchmarking the two
against each other? Is that there's
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lots of hidden costs. The biggest
hidden cost really it's time. If you're
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a fast scaling business and you need
to build something yourself. That is a
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lot of time that you need to
take into building that and there's a cost
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of someone's time. There's those an
opportunity cost of their time not doing something
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else, and we demonstrated that in
an infographic of number of cups of coffee,
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like how many cups of coffee does
this equate to? Of like how
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much energy and effort are you really
going to be putting into this? On
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the technical side, there's also cost
to maintain. So when you buy something
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out of the box, like if
there's an issue, we fix it.
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We're constantly optimizing it. There's an
updates that you can just download and right
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we're constantly trying to make the platform
better. So it's being actively maintained,
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updates are being made. If your
open source, you have to it's possible
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to make those same updates because right
everything's open source, but you have to
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do that yourself, and so that's
even more cups of coffee, because you're
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not just building at once. You
have to continue to monitor it, you
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have to continue to maintain it.
There are storage costs associated with it.
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If you're buying a cloud solution,
then the product is paying for the cloud
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storage. In most cases. So
there is. There is a lot of
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hidden costs in there. Yeah,
I love this because it's so true in
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technical world, right with the cost
to maintain the hidden cost of time,
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but it's also true in Bess,
in business at large, where you're having
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to analyze what's going to be like
the most efficient use of our time and
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even though we can maybe cut costs
in the immediate what does that look like
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for us as we scale and continue
to grow? I wonder, now that
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it's been some time that's passed since
that season and since that kind of case
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study, what you took away and
like learned from that that you maybe even
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still think about and apply where you
currently are. Very good question. So
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one of the big tap ways of
this case study was that it really comes
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down to scale. If you're a
very fast scaling business, build is very
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expensive for you because you have to
be constantly on it to iterate and constantly
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re establishing the software for scale.
And you're if you're a small team,
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like build might be the better thing
for you if you're really growing that fast,
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if you can maintain it, if
if you're a small team in the
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sense that you have resources and not
a lot of change that has influenced my
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approach to other decisions I've had to
make. If you have a super intense
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sprint that you're working on that you
need a ton of resources immediately with people
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are or a tool that can just
hit the ground running immediately, that might
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be a situation where it might be
better for you to buy if you have
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the resources and the time to invest
in bringing something in house that's like tends
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to be more sustainable in the long
run, depending on what it is that
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you're working on, but that would
be a situation where it would be better
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to to build it yourself. Hey, everybody, bend you here. As
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a member of the sweet fish team, I wanted to take a second and
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cheer something that makes us insanely more
efficient. Our team uses lead Iq.
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For those that are in sales,
or you're in sales offs, let me
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give you context. What once took
us four hours to gather contact data now
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just takes one. That's seventy five
percent more efficient. We are so much
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quicker withoutbound prospecting and organizing our campaigns
is so much easier than before. I
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highly suggest that you check out lead
Iq as well. You can find them
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at lead iqcom. That's L ADIQCOM. All right, let's jump back into
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the show. What would be other
sort of common pitfalls, you think when
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people decide we want to build this
like internally instead of Houss to maybe the
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pro or the vendor? Yeah,
for a for a developer tool, it
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also really comes down to resources,
right, so you might, depending on
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how fast you're scaling, if you're
trying to scale century, you might even
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need a full time person to just
be maintaining that. Century is a solution
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that detects errors and bugs and gives
you information about errors and bugs. If
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you're building century yourself and there's a
bug in your century, in your century
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instance, then that is not a
place that, as a developer, you
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really want to be like fixing a
bug in the thing that's supposed to help
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you fix your bugs. It like
yes, yeahs a very Meta that your
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whole infrastructure can weaken. So that
is something to kind of you know from
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it. From the Builder Lens.
It's like, how much time are you
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really willing to put into maintaining this
thing yourself? Like what are you trying
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to do? What's the benefit that
it offers you and what's worth it for
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you? From a team perspective,
because there's the external in the internal.
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I know internally you've been in companies
that literally had almost nobody on the team
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right and you were responsible for growing
that team. So when you were thinking
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of cost to build this team right, like are we going to hire someone
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full time for this versus allocate funds
externally and have someone more as like a
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lancer or part time, you've had
to think through this. What is that
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decisionmaking process looked like for you?
Absolutely I've been in this situation several times
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of being the first marketer to come
on and needing to build the department from
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ground up, and what I've experienced
is that when you're in the very early
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stages of getting the groundwork set up, going the by route is so helpful
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long term. You want to build
right, you want to want to build
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a team, you want to build
a foundation of a department, but that
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building takes time and it's more expensive
to get it wrong and then fix the
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then to be very mindful about doing
it right and getting as solid foundation set
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up, and so to lean on
experts in the beginning. If you if
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you know what you need to lean
on experts and to start getting things moving
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while you're on boarding yourself. is
a really great way of creating leverage.
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I think build and leverage are really
closely tied to each other. Yeah,
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there's a close correlation between leverage and
by when you buy, your basically buying
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yourself a bunch of leverage. So
if you're very resource drapped, then the
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buy route is a savior because all
of a sudden you have experts and tooling
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that is expert that can help you
do so much more. It's like giving
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you superpowers, so much more than
what you could do just as a solo
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person by yourself, while you're continuing
to sort of slowly build. Right.
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It provides structure to write. So
it's like leverage in a certain sort of
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structure that you might not have immediately
otherwise. Exactly. HMM. What?
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So, when you've been in a
situation like that, what did you prioritize
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and sort of hiring first, as
you moved out of a stage where it
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was like, okay, we bought, we got ourselves some leverage and now
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we're trying to scale and actually grow
the team. What did you move to?
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What did you prioritize? First?
I prioritized hiring in the areas where
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I felt I have the biggest gaps
or the like kind of weakest skills.
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So I hired to supplement for myself, basically, and that was what allowed
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a team that's super dynamic to come
together, because people's skills were very complementary
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and everyone is bringing something new to
the table. And I just not to
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take the conversation too much of a
different direction, but that's the benefit of
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diversity and hiring and building a really
diverse team is that you're getting a bunch
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of different perspectives and I think a
common mistake is hiring another you, because
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that's what feels really comfortable. It's
like, Oh, this person just like
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me, and if you like yourself, then you're going to like them.
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But then you end up getting like
a group think or getting just like people
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agreeing with each other and to quickly
and people coming with the same skills,
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and what you really want is like
a diverse array of skills and experiences to
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create a very dynamic team. Okay, let's talk about how. Let's get
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to just some really practical how would
we do this whole diverse building? Maybe
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even evil like what are are some
questions we should be asking when we're considering
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going down this road. Let's go
internal first, so not staying as far
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as like as our team is growing
or we're allocating resources. Let's start.
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Let's start there. How would we
start to really implement this and what are
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questions we should maybe be asking ourselves? I would think about what is my
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immediate need, what is my long
term need? What is my band with
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what is my available budget, and
what is that available budget on a short
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term? In a long term,
what is my expected return from this tool
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or agency that I'm looking at from
a short term and long term, and
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what is my dependency on it?
So is this something where I'm going to
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on board this and I won't be
able to ever move off of it?
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If that's the case, it doesn't
mean that you shouldn't do it. It
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just means you should put a little
bit more thought into making a commitment then
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you would. If it's like this
is a contemporary stop gap while things keep
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moving. HMM, and kind of
where is this creating leverage? How is
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this creating value for the business outside
of just for the team, and are
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there any other benefits that it would
bring to unlock for other teams? Does
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this set us up for growth in
a better way? Does it establish our
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foundation in a stronger way? Those
are some great questions. I you can
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almost take that and then just go
those are all like just flip it and
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go like that's how people are analyzing
the company you're in right now from a
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marketing Perspectivelese, are the questions they're
asking, right, we just put yourself
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in their shoes. But talk to
me a little bit about how you think
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about it externally, like how we
should be presenting our resource right to those
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that are considering either building internally or
buying our tool. Yeah, honestly,
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the more you can lead with the
value, the better, and this is
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why, for be to be marketing
and be to be selling, my push,
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and this is something from Tulio and
century and everywhere that I've been,
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is really to lean on customer case
studies and testimonials, because that's where you're
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able to unlock what was actually the
value that you brought to someone. It's
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it's sort of empty words to be
like save time by x number of hours,
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save productivity, like increase productivity.
It right. Those all of these
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value props of how you can make
someone's world better that you can put forward
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that are very compelling, but unless
they're backed up by real information or by
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a real case study, then they're
sort of empty words. And so the
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more you can lean on real businesses
that have had real impact based on your
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technology, then it's a much more
compelling narrative in demonstrating to someone why they
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should be using do. Yep,
that is a really good way to kind
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of start to wrap up here.
I took a bunch of notes. I
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think there's a lot to be kind
of considering in this space when we consider
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by verse build. Honestly, the
two questions true value of by true cost
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of build is a great way to
put it. Is Great things to kind
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of leave this episode with and consider
and to remember that when you're buying you're
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buying leverage. That's honestly, a
key concept that I'll be I love how
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C to Sinc you put it,
is what I'll say. It was a
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good way of giving us something to
consider there. So, even if people
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want to connect with you further and
stay connected to the work you're doing right
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now, what are the best ways
to do that? Tell us a little
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bit about your company and the things
you're working on find me on Linkedin,
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find me on twitter. I'm not
super active hunt twitter. Admittedly, since
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I do also manage the twitter for
the companies that I work for, I
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have a hard time also focusing on
my own, but I am responsive both
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on Linkedin and twitter. It's just
my name. Our gyle is unlocking employment
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records for every American to people better
verify their income and employment to get access
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to the financial services that they need
by transmitting information via an API. Great.
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We will link to our gyle and
your linkedin in the show notes,
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so if people want to connect further
and check it out, they can do
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that for thank you for spending time
on be tob growth. For listeners who
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want to connect with me, they
can do that on Linkedin as well,
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and you can subscribe to the show
if you haven't yet. Be To be
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growth is always releasing content that's helpful
for marketers, those in sales, and
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we want to help continue your business
has growth. So thanks for tuning into
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this episode and we will be back
very soon with more content just like this.
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It's helpful for you. Thank you, Benjie. It's sweetish. We're
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on a mission to create the most
helpful content on the Internet for every job,
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function and industry on the planet,
but The v Tob Marketing Industry.
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This show is how we're executing on
that mission. If you know a marketing
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leader that would be an awesome guest
for this podcast. Shoot me a text
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message. Don't call me because I
don't answer unknown numbers, but text me
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at four hundred seven for and I
know three and thirty two eight. Just
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shoot me their name, maybe a
link to their linked in profile, and
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I'd love to check them out to
see if we can get them on the
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show. Thanks a lot.