Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:10.789 Are you struggling to come up with original content weekend and week out? Start 2 00:00:10.830 --> 00:00:15.470 a podcast, interview your ideal clients, let them talk about what they care 3 00:00:15.509 --> 00:00:20.429 about most, and never run out of content ideas again. Learn more at 4 00:00:20.510 --> 00:00:29.980 sweet fish Mediacom. You're listening to BB growth, a daily podcast for B 5 00:00:30.059 --> 00:00:34.380 TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary vanner truck 6 00:00:34.420 --> 00:00:38.289 and Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard from the majority of our guests. 7 00:00:38.929 --> 00:00:42.929 That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. 8 00:00:43.490 --> 00:00:47.329 Most of our guests are in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're 9 00:00:47.369 --> 00:00:52.840 implementing strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing BB companies 10 00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:56.039 in the world. My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet 11 00:00:56.039 --> 00:00:59.679 fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm also one of 12 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:03.679 the CO hosts of this show. When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders, 13 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:07.430 you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of our own business. Will share 14 00:01:07.510 --> 00:01:10.829 the ups and downs of our journey as we attempt to take over the world. 15 00:01:11.469 --> 00:01:19.980 Just getting well, maybe let's get into the show. Hi there, 16 00:01:21.019 --> 00:01:23.500 and welcome to the BDB growth show. This is John Rougie and I host 17 00:01:23.579 --> 00:01:30.019 our category creation series. I'm also the VP of marketing strategy at bombomb or. 18 00:01:30.060 --> 00:01:33.209 We help you make more human connections with the people you do business with 19 00:01:33.810 --> 00:01:37.329 through personal one to one videos. All right, now, I don't know 20 00:01:37.370 --> 00:01:40.090 about you, but when I first got into marketing years ago, I had 21 00:01:40.930 --> 00:01:46.930 no idea what the heck positioning was. Turns out positioning is a really important 22 00:01:46.930 --> 00:01:49.799 piece of making sure that your audience sees you the right way. And not 23 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:53.680 only that, positioning is something you have to pay a special attention to if 24 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:57.480 you're trying to create a new category. That's why today I'm going to talk 25 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:02.430 with Andy Cunningham, who is one of the top thinkers about positioning and also 26 00:02:02.870 --> 00:02:07.150 the author of one of my favorite books about the topic, called get to 27 00:02:07.709 --> 00:02:10.750 Aha. Any is going to tell us all about what positioning is, what 28 00:02:10.909 --> 00:02:15.340 it matters and how it plays into your category design process. So, without 29 00:02:15.460 --> 00:02:21.460 further ado, let's hear from Andy Cunningham. All right, Andy, thank 30 00:02:21.500 --> 00:02:23.780 you for being on the show today. It's great to have you here. 31 00:02:23.099 --> 00:02:25.900 Hey, it's really great to be here. Thank you for having me yeah, 32 00:02:25.979 --> 00:02:30.409 you bet well. I know many people have heard of you, many 33 00:02:30.449 --> 00:02:35.050 people have read Your Book Get to a Jab, but I always like to 34 00:02:35.090 --> 00:02:38.210 ask my guests just tell us a little bit more about themselves. Maybe some 35 00:02:38.330 --> 00:02:43.490 things we don't know about you from the professional profile we always hear. Okay, 36 00:02:43.650 --> 00:02:46.280 let's see. Well, I was a roller skating hostess in high school. 37 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:50.639 Actually, no, it was college. I was a roller skating hosts 38 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:53.280 for a restaurant college. I used to play the trumpet. I was a 39 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:59.030 music major in college and I was a performance classical trumpet player and I live 40 00:02:59.110 --> 00:03:05.430 on a boat and Sawclito. Well, Hey, I'm actually a former trumpet 41 00:03:05.629 --> 00:03:09.310 player myself, which I don't think I've ever mentioned publicly, but awesome. 42 00:03:09.710 --> 00:03:14.780 Yeah, we all love each other. All the trumpet players Love Each Other's 43 00:03:15.620 --> 00:03:20.419 a good deal. And and you run a marketing consultant. See, it's 44 00:03:20.460 --> 00:03:24.379 called the Cunningham collective. If I'm mistaken, that's correct. Called Cunningham collective. 45 00:03:24.419 --> 00:03:30.289 We're based in San Francisco and we basically help companies position themselves for success 46 00:03:30.330 --> 00:03:34.530 in the market and also help them figure out how to get traction for their 47 00:03:34.689 --> 00:03:37.969 new positions. Great, great. And then I mentioned this earlier but you 48 00:03:38.050 --> 00:03:40.250 wrote a book called get to a high. Anything you want to tell us 49 00:03:40.250 --> 00:03:45.039 about that before we dive in? Yeah, well, I think the most 50 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:46.599 important thing I'd like to say about my book, get to a high, 51 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:52.520 is that it is the I call it positioning to everybody who's a marketer probably 52 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:54.750 read positioning one, which was the Jack, trout and all reese book that 53 00:03:54.830 --> 00:03:59.110 came out in the S, a great book on positioning. In fact, 54 00:03:59.430 --> 00:04:02.430 they invented the concept. They were they were very prescient. But that was 55 00:04:02.590 --> 00:04:06.590 way before the Internet and no one has written anything about positioning since then, 56 00:04:06.949 --> 00:04:12.699 and so I felt that it was necessary to put a real framework behind how 57 00:04:12.699 --> 00:04:15.540 you actually do this in the twenty one century, and so I would encourage 58 00:04:15.540 --> 00:04:17.860 you, if you liked positioning one point, oh you're really going to like 59 00:04:17.939 --> 00:04:21.620 positioning, to point out or get to a good deal. Well, I'll 60 00:04:21.620 --> 00:04:25.250 have some more questions for you about the book and some of the ideas in 61 00:04:25.290 --> 00:04:28.850 there as we get into the interview a little bit further. But one of 62 00:04:28.889 --> 00:04:33.290 the questions I like to ask guests on this series is how do you define 63 00:04:33.610 --> 00:04:39.360 categories and how do you define category creation, category design? Yeah, that's 64 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:42.879 it. That is a very big and very important question. First of all, 65 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:45.240 a category, even if you look it up in the dictionary, a 66 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:48.000 category is a group. There is more than one company in it. So 67 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:54.949 it is extraordinarily unusual for a single company to actually create a category. What 68 00:04:55.110 --> 00:04:59.709 often happens is a company comes up with something really interesting, they develop a 69 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:02.509 product, they push it forward as much as they possibly can, they run 70 00:05:02.509 --> 00:05:05.670 out of money and they die and then the second company, you know, 71 00:05:05.870 --> 00:05:10.220 improves a little bit on that and it's not till the third or fourth company 72 00:05:10.660 --> 00:05:14.939 that actually can actually say that they have built a category. So I've been 73 00:05:14.980 --> 00:05:19.339 involved in many category creations and they involve lots of companies and they involve lots 74 00:05:19.339 --> 00:05:23.129 of failure. And so if you're lucky enough to get the company that's the 75 00:05:23.250 --> 00:05:27.410 fourth or fifth or sixth in the in the line up with a new idea, 76 00:05:27.490 --> 00:05:30.649 then you you may have the category king, but you're very unlikely to 77 00:05:30.730 --> 00:05:34.720 build a categories. The first person going out doing it unlikely to be the 78 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:38.160 first. So you've been involved in this a few times. What are some 79 00:05:38.839 --> 00:05:42.920 what are some examples you like to bring up when that's happened, where the 80 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.199 first, second, third kind of pioneers out there have kind of fallen by 81 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:48.759 the wayside and it's someone later on who's picked up the mantle. Well, 82 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:53.230 no one remembers the ones that fell by the wayside. That's the thing about 83 00:05:53.230 --> 00:05:56.550 category building. But you can be sure that the ones that have won in 84 00:05:56.629 --> 00:05:59.310 any of these categories that you could talk about, they are not the first 85 00:05:59.350 --> 00:06:01.269 ones in there. So the ones I've been involved with, I was involved 86 00:06:01.310 --> 00:06:06.819 with the category creation of video games work, sorrysorry, was not the first 87 00:06:06.860 --> 00:06:12.180 company to create a video game back in the and they late s early s, 88 00:06:12.339 --> 00:06:15.339 but they they are the ones who established that category that I was involved 89 00:06:15.339 --> 00:06:19.569 in. The category creation of what was called back then desktop publishing, which 90 00:06:19.610 --> 00:06:24.329 is what apple and adobe, which actually was a company, called all of 91 00:06:24.410 --> 00:06:29.250 this. But Adobe acquired at I created this incredible new thing about how you 92 00:06:29.290 --> 00:06:33.319 could actually publish newsletters on your desktop. That was a category of many companies 93 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:36.639 in many different industries created that category, but I was there at the beginning 94 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:42.199 of that. I was involved in the category creation of very light jets, 95 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:46.240 which is a really fun one innation space. I worked with a company called 96 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:49.910 Eclipse Aviation, which invented the category and ten years later they died because they 97 00:06:49.949 --> 00:06:55.550 didn't have enough funding and Honda and a few other companies kind of just sat 98 00:06:55.629 --> 00:07:00.350 back and watched the failures that we were having an eclips and jumped in long 99 00:07:00.459 --> 00:07:04.420 after the failure of that company and they dominate the category today. The HANDA 100 00:07:04.420 --> 00:07:08.060 jet is one of the best very light jets out there. So anyw I've 101 00:07:08.060 --> 00:07:10.819 been involved in a lot of these things and seen them, seen them come 102 00:07:10.899 --> 00:07:14.420 and go. So category creation is a very big deal, very expensive. 103 00:07:14.579 --> 00:07:16.370 Can't be the first one in, but if you are the third of four 104 00:07:16.490 --> 00:07:19.889 U pet in, you can stand to make a ton of money by building 105 00:07:19.930 --> 00:07:24.569 that category. Sure. So what is it about being the first for the 106 00:07:24.610 --> 00:07:28.490 second do you think that leads to failure? Is it? Is it could 107 00:07:28.490 --> 00:07:30.639 trying to come to market before the market is really ready? Is it? 108 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:33.560 Is it lack of, you know, capital to just have the staying power 109 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:38.000 to wait for the market to come on board? Or maybe it's something else? 110 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:41.959 I think it's vision before market is ready. It is the issue. 111 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:44.629 So a lot of these companies have great visions. I mean if you think 112 00:07:44.670 --> 00:07:46.709 about the APP if you think about Apple, where I was I work with 113 00:07:46.790 --> 00:07:50.589 apple many years ago on the launch of the Macintosh. If Apple, it's 114 00:07:50.589 --> 00:07:56.230 the apple to headn't existed to fund the Development and failure of the Macintosh in 115 00:07:56.269 --> 00:08:00.139 the first few years, the Macintosh would not have happened. It would have 116 00:08:00.220 --> 00:08:03.540 died, just like all the all these other companies. So I think it's 117 00:08:03.579 --> 00:08:07.139 very it costs a lot of money, it takes a lot of time, 118 00:08:07.220 --> 00:08:09.420 it takes a lot of patients and it really helps if you've got some other 119 00:08:09.540 --> 00:08:15.170 product that can fund the development of a brand new idea. Visions are wonderful 120 00:08:15.170 --> 00:08:18.089 things, as they're all over silicon valley, but funding the vision and having 121 00:08:18.129 --> 00:08:22.050 the vision meet the market at the right time, in the in the right 122 00:08:22.170 --> 00:08:26.649 way is a very hit or miss operation. Sure, sure, and you 123 00:08:26.730 --> 00:08:30.279 know, a couple examples that come to mind for me as you're talking about 124 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:33.519 that are, one, electric cars, which were, I think, invented 125 00:08:33.639 --> 00:08:37.840 maybe a hundred years ago. Yeah, yes, and then, of course, 126 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:39.840 the one you hear about a lot, as well as social media, 127 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:45.350 and with there're a couple predecessors in social media before even facebook, who we 128 00:08:45.470 --> 00:08:48.629 talked about plenty of times who have since fallen by the wayside. So yeah, 129 00:08:48.629 --> 00:08:52.190 that's it's a really interesting perspective because I haven't heard that highlighted. I 130 00:08:52.309 --> 00:08:58.059 think enough in some of the discussions I've had around category design. But everybody 131 00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:03.700 thinks it's very sexy and and successful to build a category. But what they 132 00:09:03.700 --> 00:09:07.500 don't realize is that building a category is different from starting a category. Right, 133 00:09:07.620 --> 00:09:11.330 creating a category, that creation of the category, is the thing that 134 00:09:11.529 --> 00:09:13.690 is a it's you. It's like putting a bullet to your head. If 135 00:09:13.690 --> 00:09:18.809 you're going to create a cant probably going to die. Right. I cannot 136 00:09:18.850 --> 00:09:22.610 think of a single company that successfully created the category from the very beginning and 137 00:09:24.090 --> 00:09:28.120 still dominates it even five, ten, twenty years later. So so sales 138 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:33.039 force with cloud based software. They weren't the first company to build cloud based 139 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:35.759 software. Not. In fact, I worked with Hewlett Packard long before sales 140 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.950 force ever showed its face on the on the market, and they had a 141 00:09:39.269 --> 00:09:43.389 cloud based so I mean cloud stuff has been around for a long time. 142 00:09:43.549 --> 00:09:46.830 What they did is they popularized it and they made it cool and they gave 143 00:09:46.870 --> 00:09:50.870 it they had a wonderful logo that's in no software and they made everybody believe 144 00:09:50.909 --> 00:09:54.220 that that they were the category creators. But they were not. They built 145 00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:58.740 the category. They built their success on the shoulders of people who had failed 146 00:09:58.779 --> 00:10:01.139 before them. Sure, and that's how I can do it. That's how 147 00:10:01.179 --> 00:10:05.820 you build a category today. You find a great idea that's out there and 148 00:10:05.940 --> 00:10:09.289 then you put your your stuff on top of those shoulders and improve the heck 149 00:10:09.370 --> 00:10:13.409 out of it. And that's how you build when you learn from the people 150 00:10:13.409 --> 00:10:16.330 who made the mistakes before you. Yeah, is that how you describe the 151 00:10:16.370 --> 00:10:20.889 difference between category design and crack category creation? Then well, I'll say that. 152 00:10:20.090 --> 00:10:24.000 I say to Category Design and category creation. I probably the same sort 153 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:28.000 of idea. The thing that I would say is different, as is building 154 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:31.799 a category. Like you can see that you invented the first electric car right 155 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:35.399 if you're still alive today, but that doesn't mean that you built that category. 156 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:37.230 It means you invented a new idea, that that was the very, 157 00:10:37.309 --> 00:10:41.509 very beginnings of a category that took a hundred years to actually come to fruition. 158 00:10:43.029 --> 00:10:46.950 Sure, I'm sure you know the the product market fit wasn't quite there 159 00:10:46.070 --> 00:10:50.620 a hundred years ago for electric cars it is today. Yeah, let's bring 160 00:10:50.779 --> 00:10:54.899 we talked about positioning at the beginning of our conversation. Let's bring that back 161 00:10:54.899 --> 00:10:58.659 into the next because you know they're very positioning in category creation. Or category 162 00:10:58.700 --> 00:11:01.500 design, whatever you want to call it, are related, but they're not 163 00:11:01.580 --> 00:11:05.889 exactly the same thing. So what can you teach us about how we should 164 00:11:05.889 --> 00:11:09.049 understand those terms and how they relate to each other? Sure, so, 165 00:11:09.289 --> 00:11:13.610 I think you need you need to understand the answer to what both of those 166 00:11:13.649 --> 00:11:16.210 are for yourself as a company. So you need to know what category you 167 00:11:16.330 --> 00:11:18.360 fit in and then you need to know how what is your position within that 168 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:22.759 category. So to me, understanding your category is a very is a very 169 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:26.080 strategic question, and that is where you have to decide. Are you going 170 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:31.960 to join an existing category, are you going to attempt the death knell of 171 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:35.029 creating a category, or are you can create what we call subcategories? That's 172 00:11:35.029 --> 00:11:39.350 actually a place where you can maybe make some make some headway if you're really 173 00:11:39.429 --> 00:11:43.590 feeling adventurous, and one of the one of my favorite examples of that, 174 00:11:43.990 --> 00:11:48.940 is the dodge minivan. So Dodge, you know automotive company, had a 175 00:11:48.019 --> 00:11:52.820 problem. They had too many chassis of a certain size and they basically were 176 00:11:52.820 --> 00:11:56.379 suffering from an inventory blood. Somebody inside the company, I don't know who 177 00:11:56.419 --> 00:12:00.460 it was, said, Hey, what if we don't put the sedan on 178 00:12:00.580 --> 00:12:03.289 top of that chest and put something else on top of it. Maybe we 179 00:12:03.409 --> 00:12:07.490 can sell it. Then and they put they scramble together a very raw what 180 00:12:07.690 --> 00:12:09.850 is today the minivan, and they put that on top of the chassis and 181 00:12:09.970 --> 00:12:13.970 it got got a little bit of traction. People really liked it. Then 182 00:12:13.970 --> 00:12:16.200 they started to improve it and make it better and v Walla, a few 183 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:20.080 years later the minivan was born. But that that's a subcategory. It was 184 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:24.360 brilliant. It was borne out of a problem, like many successful things are, 185 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:26.519 and the fact of the matter is it's still took years to build it, 186 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:31.389 even and they couldn't have done it without without the funding behind, you 187 00:12:31.509 --> 00:12:35.350 know, the funding the dodge had with other successful vehicles, right, and 188 00:12:35.470 --> 00:12:39.429 they can. They kind of were forced to that situation, for better worse, 189 00:12:39.549 --> 00:12:43.590 with that that blood of immatory that you mentioned. How do you see 190 00:12:43.590 --> 00:12:48.860 subcategories playing out in, say, software? Well, I think, I 191 00:12:48.100 --> 00:12:52.620 think if you can find something that where there's a big improvement that is required 192 00:12:52.700 --> 00:12:56.940 in an existing situation, you know, I think you can build. You 193 00:12:56.019 --> 00:13:00.169 can build a subcategory. It's still it's not an easy thing to do, 194 00:13:00.370 --> 00:13:01.649 but I think it is. It is possible to do it. So if 195 00:13:01.690 --> 00:13:05.730 you take, say, Oh, you know like the whole adobe suite of 196 00:13:07.129 --> 00:13:09.529 mark getting products. Everybody it really loves adobe and we all love their product. 197 00:13:11.090 --> 00:13:13.720 But you know, they started with they started with the creative product. 198 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:16.840 You know, I've forgot the name of it, but they were actually able 199 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:20.120 to establish a market with that. And then what they did is they actually 200 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:26.360 started buying companies and they started doing their own development and creating subpieces of that 201 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:28.789 overall thing, until one day they said, wait a minute, what we 202 00:13:28.909 --> 00:13:31.669 really have up here is what we're going to call the creative cloud. So 203 00:13:31.789 --> 00:13:35.389 they actually created all these, I would say subcategories of the creative club, 204 00:13:35.470 --> 00:13:39.149 but they didn't name the creative cloud until much later and that's when they realized, 205 00:13:39.269 --> 00:13:43.419 Oh, we have a big category, it's not even a categories, 206 00:13:43.460 --> 00:13:46.220 a product line, and all of these little subcategories that we were trying to 207 00:13:46.259 --> 00:13:50.340 build actually fit underneath this creative cloud idea. So would it be safe to 208 00:13:50.379 --> 00:13:54.259 say then that if you've built something, whether it's an ecosystem of products or 209 00:13:54.539 --> 00:14:00.370 maybe just a point tool, and there's not really a great framework to describe 210 00:14:00.529 --> 00:14:05.450 what that thing is in the market, is that we're designing a subcategory comes 211 00:14:05.450 --> 00:14:07.529 into play? Yeah, I think that's actually a great way to look at 212 00:14:07.529 --> 00:14:11.399 it. Is is sometimes you've built something that that adds a twist or does 213 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:16.360 something slightly different any end. That's why the question of what is the category 214 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:18.519 you're in a really important one, because you need to understand if you are 215 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:22.759 joining because the marketing is different. If you're joining an existing category, the 216 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:26.629 marketing is different than if you're creating in a subcategory. So marketing the dodge 217 00:14:26.669 --> 00:14:31.830 minivan was a very different task than marketing another sedan that looked just like the 218 00:14:31.870 --> 00:14:35.350 other savan before it. That's much more of a commodity marketing to situation. 219 00:14:35.389 --> 00:14:39.899 Yeah, it's an important question to answer. And then positioning is okay, 220 00:14:39.940 --> 00:14:43.379 now that you understand what category you're in. What's your spot? You know 221 00:14:43.460 --> 00:14:46.539 what's where's your place in the sun in that in that category? How do 222 00:14:46.580 --> 00:14:48.980 you what's your differentiator? What is your role? What is your relevance? 223 00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:52.779 That's what that's to me, what the positioning is. It's the dot on 224 00:14:52.820 --> 00:14:56.850 the map inside that category. So they're not it's not an either or it's 225 00:14:56.889 --> 00:15:00.809 you've got to make these two different decisions. One is what category you're going 226 00:15:00.889 --> 00:15:03.090 to compete in. Is that? Yes, finding a niche within an existing 227 00:15:03.169 --> 00:15:07.159 category, or does it mean creating and designing a new category or subcategory? 228 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:13.679 And then, given that, what's your what's the position then within category? 229 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:16.919 Right, know what category and like, what are you? Are you? 230 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:20.559 Are you cloud based software? Are you an electric vehicle? Are you a 231 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.909 video conferencing system? Yeah, tell me more about why. Why that's so 232 00:15:24.990 --> 00:15:28.470 important for people to understand in the in the buying process, because of how 233 00:15:28.549 --> 00:15:33.350 the mind works. The brain has a very hard time coming up understanding brand 234 00:15:33.429 --> 00:15:37.379 new things that don't fit into all the spaces. Your brain is kind of 235 00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:41.379 mapped out to understand things when you see them. When you see something you've 236 00:15:41.379 --> 00:15:43.179 never seen before, your brain doesn't know where to put it or what to 237 00:15:43.220 --> 00:15:46.139 do with it. So a lot of times what people do, most people 238 00:15:46.179 --> 00:15:48.940 when that, when they're confronted with that, is they push it out and 239 00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:52.850 they ignore it. And that's the last thing you want as a marketers borring 240 00:15:54.250 --> 00:15:56.570 your product or your service. So if you can put it into a place 241 00:15:56.690 --> 00:16:02.570 in the mind that people understand, then you you've created an affinity for it 242 00:16:03.090 --> 00:16:07.000 from the get go and that's much better than creating repulsion from the beginning. 243 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:08.440 So you want it, you want to try to create an affinity, and 244 00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:12.639 you do that by by being something that they already recognize, and that is 245 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:17.519 why analogies work so well, and marketing. This is the umer of that, 246 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:21.669 this is the apple of that. It's because your mind works that way, 247 00:16:22.149 --> 00:16:25.830 because our world is so complex and there's so many things our brain has 248 00:16:25.870 --> 00:16:30.350 to contend with, we use categories as these rules of thumb for grouping things 249 00:16:30.389 --> 00:16:33.340 together and knowing what to expect. And, like you said, if you 250 00:16:33.379 --> 00:16:37.059 don't give buyers context for what that is, they're just confused and then, 251 00:16:37.659 --> 00:16:41.220 like, the worst thing that can happen is will push you away about so 252 00:16:41.500 --> 00:16:44.899 first you got to you got to create affiliation, and then once you create 253 00:16:44.899 --> 00:16:49.529 affiliation, then you can create differentiation. But if you create differentiation before filiation, 254 00:16:52.129 --> 00:16:55.490 you're kind of messed up. Sure, it's like different from what, 255 00:16:55.730 --> 00:16:57.929 if you're just saying you're different, but you don't give context for what you're 256 00:16:57.929 --> 00:17:03.920 differentiating yourselves from or how you're better, cheaper, faster, whatever those characteristics 257 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.200 are, then none of that really makes any sense. Right. There's me 258 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:12.240 context for people understand why, why your product is better than the other ones 259 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:15.470 out there. So, if you look at Elon Musk and the one there. 260 00:17:15.549 --> 00:17:21.869 He's one of my favorite examples of using his character and his vision as 261 00:17:21.910 --> 00:17:26.589 a differentiator. Right. So people there have been many electric car companies, 262 00:17:26.630 --> 00:17:29.349 that there will be many more electric car companies. He was definitely not the 263 00:17:29.430 --> 00:17:33.299 first, as we talked about a while ago, but people want to affiliate 264 00:17:33.539 --> 00:17:37.180 with him because he's showing them a path to a better future, not only 265 00:17:37.259 --> 00:17:41.220 with the electric cars but with SPACEX and the boring company. And then they're 266 00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:45.210 a logical thing he's got going. I mean he's people want to attach themselves 267 00:17:45.250 --> 00:17:49.529 to a visionary like him, and so he uses that to market Tesla and 268 00:17:49.930 --> 00:17:52.769 that's that's brilliant. And Steve did it too with Apple. He used his 269 00:17:52.849 --> 00:17:56.809 own personnel. Richard Branson uses it. If you have that kind of a 270 00:17:56.930 --> 00:18:00.240 personality and that asset going for you, you might as well, you know, 271 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.960 use it to help help market your company. Yeah, well, that's 272 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:07.720 probably a great segue into some of the principles. In your book you have 273 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:15.990 identified these three different DNA types that companies can use to help better understand their 274 00:18:15.029 --> 00:18:19.309 own positioning and their own messaging. So can you walk us through what those 275 00:18:19.349 --> 00:18:22.990 are? And then I know you've got some the six subtypes, two with 276 00:18:23.069 --> 00:18:26.990 their each. So you have to hear your take on that. We read 277 00:18:26.029 --> 00:18:30.819 the book. Thank you. That's yeah, yours. Thank you. So 278 00:18:32.900 --> 00:18:34.859 the thing is that companies are a lot like people. So if you sort 279 00:18:34.900 --> 00:18:38.460 of go into the whole marketing exercise understanding that, you're going to be a 280 00:18:38.500 --> 00:18:41.849 much better marketer. And the reason they're like people is because they serve people 281 00:18:41.849 --> 00:18:45.650 and they're made up of people and they make products for people. So so 282 00:18:45.210 --> 00:18:48.049 the first principle of all of this is that companies are a lot like people. 283 00:18:48.730 --> 00:18:52.250 So within that, I looked at a couple of hundred companies that I'd 284 00:18:52.289 --> 00:18:57.039 worked with in the past and I tried to categorize them into to see if 285 00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:00.319 there were patterns that were forming, and I spent quite a boit of time 286 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:04.119 doing this and I wound up with three piles on my desk, three piles 287 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:07.440 of companies, and there was the companies that were very customer focused, a 288 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.470 pile of companies that were very product focused, in a pile of companies of 289 00:19:11.549 --> 00:19:15.309 very concept focus. And then I tried to find other thing other places to 290 00:19:15.349 --> 00:19:18.109 put them, and I couldn't. I couldn't find a company that went into 291 00:19:18.150 --> 00:19:21.710 a new pile. So once I looked at those piles, I examined what 292 00:19:21.910 --> 00:19:26.299 exactly is the same of all these companies in, let's say in the customer 293 00:19:26.380 --> 00:19:30.339 focus pile. Well, they treat people differently, they hire people differently, 294 00:19:30.380 --> 00:19:33.900 they talk about different things and meetings, they structure themselves differently, they measure 295 00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:37.650 success differently, they do all these things differently. And then I looked at 296 00:19:37.690 --> 00:19:41.250 the things that they do and I tried to match it up with the product 297 00:19:41.289 --> 00:19:45.650 Focus Company and I realized, Oh, they structure themselves differently and higher different 298 00:19:45.690 --> 00:19:48.049 kinds of people and measure success differently. In the same is true with the 299 00:19:48.130 --> 00:19:52.529 concept company. So that was kind of the beginning of the idea that I 300 00:19:52.650 --> 00:19:55.039 have these three types of company. So then, of course, because I'm 301 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:57.559 a marketer, and give them nicknames. So I call the mothers for the 302 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:03.359 customer focus companies, mechanics for the product focus companies and missionaries for the concept 303 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:07.990 focus companies. But I took it one more step and I said, okay, 304 00:20:07.990 --> 00:20:11.069 let's say you are a mother company. Okay, how how could you 305 00:20:11.109 --> 00:20:15.109 position yourself once you understand what your DNA is? How can you position yourself 306 00:20:15.349 --> 00:20:18.630 with that knowledge well, I and again I tried to find more than two, 307 00:20:18.670 --> 00:20:19.869 but I can only find two in each of these in each of these 308 00:20:21.109 --> 00:20:23.740 categories. So if you're a mother focus company, you can only position your 309 00:20:23.980 --> 00:20:30.220 self around customer experience or customer segmentation. Now there's a million ways to position 310 00:20:30.220 --> 00:20:33.259 yourself within that, but you can only be around a segment like Nike does. 311 00:20:33.339 --> 00:20:37.210 Nike is a mother company that focuses on the segment of what they call 312 00:20:37.289 --> 00:20:41.529 the aspirational athlete, right, whereas Disney is a company that focuses on customer 313 00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:45.650 experience and they focus on the experience that their customers have with all of their 314 00:20:45.730 --> 00:20:51.200 products, especially there are their theme parts. If you're a product focus company 315 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:55.920 or a mechanic you focus on either features or value. Walmart is a very 316 00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:00.799 value oriented company. Brable and Microsoft for both very features oriented companies. And 317 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:03.720 then the third kind, the concept companies, of the missionaries is I like 318 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:06.269 to call them, and I spend a lot of time working closely with Steve 319 00:21:06.309 --> 00:21:08.150 Jobs, so I feel like I have a great affinity for these kinds of 320 00:21:08.230 --> 00:21:14.430 companies. They position themselves either around cult of personality like Richard Branson or Elaw 321 00:21:14.470 --> 00:21:18.470 Musk right, or themselves around the next big thing. They're going to create 322 00:21:18.549 --> 00:21:21.099 the next big thing, and if you look at them very, very closely, 323 00:21:21.579 --> 00:21:23.579 you'll notice that the next big thing that they come up with is never 324 00:21:23.740 --> 00:21:26.940 the first time that that next big thing has shown up. Even if you 325 00:21:26.980 --> 00:21:30.900 look at the IPOD that that apple created, not the first time there was 326 00:21:30.980 --> 00:21:34.690 ever an ipod, right the remp three players before that. It's what it's 327 00:21:34.769 --> 00:21:37.250 someone like Steve a vision. I like Steve who can take all of the 328 00:21:37.410 --> 00:21:42.049 elements of something that is already out there and add to it, which is 329 00:21:42.089 --> 00:21:47.640 what he did with the Macintosh, and create something that feels new but really 330 00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:52.680 isn't all that new, and that's that's just brilliant, brilliant product mark could 331 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:56.640 fit stuff, I think so. Yet, like that example of MP three 332 00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.950 players and I pods is really interesting because I wonder what's would be going on 333 00:22:02.069 --> 00:22:04.109 in the minds of someone who had, you know, devented some of the 334 00:22:04.150 --> 00:22:07.549 predecessors to the IPID, these MP three players, and I don't know enough 335 00:22:07.549 --> 00:22:11.509 about what what brands those were with the product names, but no good. 336 00:22:11.829 --> 00:22:18.420 Everybody forgot them. So is it? Is it simply because those companies didn't 337 00:22:18.460 --> 00:22:22.180 have the right way position and kind of television for those products. Or is 338 00:22:22.220 --> 00:22:26.859 it something bigger than that? Well, I think they didn't understand how people 339 00:22:26.900 --> 00:22:30.089 were going to use them and that and that is as the biggest it was. 340 00:22:30.089 --> 00:22:33.289 I actually worked with one of those companies before the IPOD came out and 341 00:22:33.450 --> 00:22:37.329 I think the name of the company was sonnet or or something like that. 342 00:22:37.410 --> 00:22:40.170 I didn't even remember the name of the company because they died shortly thereafter. 343 00:22:40.569 --> 00:22:44.130 But most of those companies fought that. Their vision for the product was not 344 00:22:44.289 --> 00:22:48.279 so much around music, but it was really more around MP three players moved 345 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.160 into the music. But even before the MP three players, they were talking 346 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.359 about more like what we would call a podcast today, right when she hadn't 347 00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:56.720 been invented at that point. But they saw them as a new way to 348 00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:00.509 have radio, right. So they envisioned people using it as a more like 349 00:23:00.589 --> 00:23:04.430 a radio where you're at the gym when you're going for a walk. And 350 00:23:04.509 --> 00:23:08.509 they didn't understand. They didn't understand the positioning right. So Steve comes up, 351 00:23:08.630 --> 00:23:12.819 he says here's a thousand songs in your pocket, like wow, that's 352 00:23:12.859 --> 00:23:17.099 what I want. I Want I want music. I don't want radio because 353 00:23:17.099 --> 00:23:19.380 I already have radio and I wanted in my pocket. And it's like the 354 00:23:19.420 --> 00:23:22.700 positioning was so brilliant. You know, it's just a thousand songs in your 355 00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:26.210 pocket. It's not all of this technology Mombo jumbo and all of this. 356 00:23:26.369 --> 00:23:30.369 So that's why, that's why his made it. But then he also reinvented 357 00:23:30.369 --> 00:23:33.250 the music industry in order to go with it. There was there was other 358 00:23:33.329 --> 00:23:37.529 things that had to happen to make that that a success. But but that 359 00:23:37.650 --> 00:23:41.559 was just brilliant positioning. So there was this category design aspect where he wasn't 360 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:45.839 just building the product, he was building an ecosystem of things around the product 361 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.960 to make good point. You. I have the ecosystems. Like he needed 362 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:53.359 the music industry as well as his technology. Right, Elon Musk needs the 363 00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:56.509 whole supply chain, right, in addition to what he's building. You can't 364 00:23:56.549 --> 00:24:02.109 do it alone. So, but the ipod entered an existing category that at 365 00:24:02.150 --> 00:24:04.390 the time was called MP three players. But Steve didn't call her an YMP 366 00:24:04.589 --> 00:24:07.829 three player, right, that's not what he called it. He said I'm 367 00:24:07.829 --> 00:24:10.859 just going to call it an IPOD. Right. So everybody thinks he created 368 00:24:10.900 --> 00:24:14.299 that category, but he didn't create that category. Yeah, and those those 369 00:24:14.339 --> 00:24:18.380 names became kind of like household names for that product. Like my kids, 370 00:24:18.539 --> 00:24:22.980 they've got amid, like these Amazon kindles, like the kids version, but 371 00:24:22.460 --> 00:24:26.410 before that they had my old IPAD. So this's what we called it and 372 00:24:26.450 --> 00:24:29.289 that's what we still they refer to their too doles as I pads, even 373 00:24:29.329 --> 00:24:33.849 though it's not what they are. Yeah, yeah, so you've got these. 374 00:24:33.890 --> 00:24:38.839 There's these three DNA types, missionaries, mothers and mechanics. I want 375 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:41.720 to ask you about how they relate to category in a moment, but can 376 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:45.880 you just give me a few more examples of companies within each of those and, 377 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:48.599 especially since this is a BDB show, if you can think of any 378 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:52.319 examples, that would be really cool to hear. Sure. Well, like 379 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:55.670 I I'll start with the mechanics. So horrible and Microsoft are the two best 380 00:24:55.670 --> 00:24:57.230 examples that I can come up with. THEM BE TO BE COMPANIES. Well, 381 00:24:57.309 --> 00:25:00.509 Microsoft is also be to see, but they're largely be to be, 382 00:25:00.029 --> 00:25:03.509 and they are. They are so much product oriented companies. And by the 383 00:25:03.549 --> 00:25:07.299 way, when Bill Gates started that company he started as a product company, 384 00:25:07.339 --> 00:25:11.940 where he started as a East bought stuff in most most product focus companies, 385 00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:15.539 they have one product and then they buy everything else. And then both of 386 00:25:15.619 --> 00:25:18.859 those companies are are big in the MNA, in the M A space. 387 00:25:18.980 --> 00:25:22.930 So those are those are great companies like that. In the mother space, 388 00:25:22.049 --> 00:25:26.730 that's a little bit more challenging. But here's what's starting to happen Amazon. 389 00:25:26.210 --> 00:25:30.490 Amazon is moving itself from a product company. Actually first they started as a 390 00:25:30.490 --> 00:25:33.089 missionary company. Then they moved into product. This is sort of a normal 391 00:25:33.569 --> 00:25:37.359 path of operation and now they're doing is moving into being a mother company and 392 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:44.160 they have started this process back several years ago when they bought Zappos, and 393 00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:48.519 they didn't buy Zappos because Jeff bezos couldn't figure out how to sell shoes online. 394 00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:52.430 They bought Zappos because they were trying to infiltrate the company with that customer 395 00:25:52.549 --> 00:25:56.710 Centricity, that customer focus that Zappos is so famous for and Tony Shave with 396 00:25:56.789 --> 00:26:00.349 his book delivering happiness, is so famous for. So that was the first 397 00:26:00.349 --> 00:26:04.140 step that they took in actually becoming a mother company and they've done many steps 398 00:26:04.180 --> 00:26:07.299 since then and the latest thing they've done, this is probably two years old 399 00:26:07.299 --> 00:26:11.740 now, is they actually published a new mission statement and they made a big 400 00:26:11.779 --> 00:26:15.299 deal about this new mission statement, and their new mission statement is to be 401 00:26:15.420 --> 00:26:18.529 Earth's most customer centric company. And so you can see that they've made this 402 00:26:18.890 --> 00:26:23.250 purposeful steering from where they were to a mother company. And that includes not 403 00:26:23.410 --> 00:26:26.809 only there be a c stuff, but also there be to be stuff with, 404 00:26:26.970 --> 00:26:29.410 you know, aws and all of that. Right, you have that 405 00:26:29.529 --> 00:26:33.160 statements. Not a mother oriented company, than I don't know what would be 406 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:37.039 exactly exactly. And they made a big deal about making sure everybody knew that 407 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:40.200 that was their new mission statement's all. It's on their website. It's very 408 00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:44.160 prominently placed. Most companies don't put their mission statement out there like Amazon has 409 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.789 done recently with that. And in the missionary department. That's a that's sales 410 00:26:48.869 --> 00:26:52.430 forces, a missionary. Okay, Jeff Mark Any off total missionary, total 411 00:26:52.509 --> 00:26:56.869 be to be company. Took something that was a great that was struggling already 412 00:26:56.910 --> 00:27:02.299 the vote, sort of cloud software, of saying in the in the customer 413 00:27:02.380 --> 00:27:06.660 relationship management stuff, and he blew it up into this giant thing and became 414 00:27:06.700 --> 00:27:11.299 a missionary around. How can you build your sales force to be more successful? 415 00:27:11.380 --> 00:27:12.259 And you know, I mean I don't even know it to be to 416 00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:18.210 be company today that doesn't use sales for software. So sure for successful. 417 00:27:18.250 --> 00:27:22.730 Yeah, so those are three be tob situations in those in those categories, 418 00:27:22.930 --> 00:27:26.049 and that's one of the thing about these, these categories. Remember I said 419 00:27:26.170 --> 00:27:30.559 companies are a lot like people. Well, just like people, when you 420 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:33.720 know what you're made of inside yourself, you can make something of it. 421 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:37.359 Right, we always tell our kids. Find what you're passionate about, find 422 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:41.119 what you're good at, and then you know they'll down on it. Don't 423 00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:45.390 find something that you aren't good at and try to double down on that, 424 00:27:45.509 --> 00:27:48.269 because that will never be authentic in the market. Same is true with companies. 425 00:27:48.349 --> 00:27:52.630 Find out what you are really good at and who you really are. 426 00:27:52.670 --> 00:27:55.910 Are you customer focused? Are Your product focus or are you concept focused? 427 00:27:55.950 --> 00:27:59.380 And then double down on that. And when you do that, you're marketing 428 00:27:59.500 --> 00:28:03.859 is much more authentic and it feels like it brings true like who would believe 429 00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:07.740 that comcast is a mother company? And who would? WHO believes there at 430 00:28:07.819 --> 00:28:11.579 campaign out there about all these great stories they have a customers who are having 431 00:28:11.579 --> 00:28:15.690 a great time with comcast. No one believes it because it isn't who they 432 00:28:15.690 --> 00:28:19.250 are. Right, right. Yeah, now, with a negative npscore you 433 00:28:19.329 --> 00:28:25.730 know, it's really something that you are uncovering, not so much choosing and 434 00:28:25.809 --> 00:28:30.200 then pursuing as a direction that's right and and it's if you're a startup company, 435 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.359 it's probably going to be the DNA that you you've brought to the table 436 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:36.799 as the founder. It's probably how it starts, and usually that starts with 437 00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:41.400 a missionary kind of idea. Not Always. Sometimes somebody says, you know, 438 00:28:41.470 --> 00:28:45.029 boy, I have this great new product feature and I'm going to build 439 00:28:45.029 --> 00:28:47.829 the heck out of a company around it. And that and then that DNA 440 00:28:47.910 --> 00:28:51.269 kind of infiltrates the whole company. So usually it starts with the founder. 441 00:28:51.630 --> 00:28:55.710 But as companies grow and mature they can make purposeful shifts, like Amazon is 442 00:28:55.819 --> 00:28:59.660 doing, or it's happening to apple in the market right now apple is not 443 00:28:59.819 --> 00:29:03.859 purposefully making that shift. But when Steve Jobs died they lost their missionary right 444 00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:10.769 and unfortunately they were not able to find another missionary. I and Tim Cook, 445 00:29:10.809 --> 00:29:14.250 who I believe is probably the world's greatest steward of assets that he was 446 00:29:14.250 --> 00:29:18.130 left, has spent several years trying to replace the missionary and unable to do 447 00:29:18.210 --> 00:29:22.450 so. Meanwhile, the markets pushing them into being a product Focus Company and 448 00:29:22.650 --> 00:29:26.079 unfortunately, in my opinion, even though they're super high valued and I think 449 00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:30.880 they've done a fabulous job, they're a little behind the eight ball and recognizing 450 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:33.599 that that's what they are today, that their product company today. There in 451 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:37.440 fact, I call them an essential luxury brand. You know, they're like 452 00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.349 Louis Baton, except you. Except you need your Louis Baton Right. You 453 00:29:41.509 --> 00:29:44.990 need your you need your if you're if you live your life on the on 454 00:29:45.109 --> 00:29:48.990 the Onios, you will pay the extra money for it and because you think 455 00:29:49.029 --> 00:29:52.460 it's a luxury but you need it. So an essential luxury is a really 456 00:29:52.500 --> 00:29:56.140 unusual position that they have in the market place today. But they got to 457 00:29:56.180 --> 00:30:00.700 make sure their products are workinging really well. Right, and a lot of 458 00:30:00.779 --> 00:30:03.140 the products save anounced recently. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't 459 00:30:03.140 --> 00:30:07.849 describe them as next big things like the apple credit card, you know, 460 00:30:08.170 --> 00:30:12.049 the next generation of are pods like. They're interesting products, are good products, 461 00:30:12.450 --> 00:30:17.250 but they're not like game changing categories we've never heard of before. They 462 00:30:17.329 --> 00:30:19.849 haven't had a next big thing since since Steve Died, since a long, 463 00:30:21.089 --> 00:30:25.039 long time, yeah, long, and they're not they're not going to but 464 00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:26.559 they're. What they're going to do is they're going to continue to evolve those 465 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.480 products, they're going to become more of a services company, they're going to 466 00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:34.910 try to make themselves essential to your lifestyle, and that's but my big beef 467 00:30:36.029 --> 00:30:38.829 on apple these days actually is that back in the day they developed. They 468 00:30:40.309 --> 00:30:44.309 the reason that the Macintosh became successful after Steve went back to apple is because 469 00:30:44.349 --> 00:30:48.470 he recognized there was a tribe of people who were so dependent and in love 470 00:30:48.589 --> 00:30:52.099 and patient about the Macintosh and he tagged into that tribe and then grew that 471 00:30:52.299 --> 00:30:56.259 tribe. And it turns out that tribe or creative people. They were the 472 00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:59.779 people who think different right. That was his whole ad campaign. Well, 473 00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:03.539 he when he discovered that, which he didn't know when he sat apple the 474 00:31:03.619 --> 00:31:06.289 first time. He when he discovered that and double down on it. He 475 00:31:06.369 --> 00:31:08.490 was then able to grow the tribe. Today, you know what is it 476 00:31:08.569 --> 00:31:11.529 nine years after he died? Nope, they don't. Nobody knows who the 477 00:31:11.609 --> 00:31:15.369 apple tried to is anymore. No one has idea. You know, what 478 00:31:15.609 --> 00:31:18.519 is the Apple User? It's like we don't have a tribe anymore and and 479 00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:23.920 we need they need to define who their tribe is and and start communicating with 480 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:27.319 their tribe, just like Steve did back when he came and did the think 481 00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:30.440 different campaign. Yeah, it sounds like a real challenge when you're, you 482 00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:33.990 know, one of the most valuable companies on earth and your tribe is, 483 00:31:33.309 --> 00:31:37.750 you know, a few billion people. Large exactly. It's a big challenge, 484 00:31:37.829 --> 00:31:38.950 but I think they're up to it. But I think they have to 485 00:31:38.990 --> 00:31:44.150 recognize that it is a challenge. Sure, sure, so back to your 486 00:31:44.349 --> 00:31:48.660 your DNA types. One of the points I remember highlighting when I read the 487 00:31:48.740 --> 00:31:53.019 book was this idea, this misperception almost, that in order to be a 488 00:31:53.140 --> 00:31:59.140 category creator you have to be a missionary. But I don't think you believe 489 00:31:59.140 --> 00:32:01.250 that's the case. Correct, I don't. I think you can. You 490 00:32:01.329 --> 00:32:05.730 can build a category. Again, I prefer to use the build rather than 491 00:32:05.809 --> 00:32:08.170 create, because I think the creators die. I think the builders thrive, 492 00:32:08.809 --> 00:32:14.009 but I think build a category as a mother or mechanical or missionary, and 493 00:32:14.170 --> 00:32:16.559 many of many of them have. Actually, if you look at Nordstrom, 494 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:21.200 is a great, I think, a great example. I don't know people 495 00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:23.720 outside of the West Coast know what nords from is, but it's a retail 496 00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:29.319 store out here for clothing and shoes and men's and women's and children's and it 497 00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:32.549 is. It is known for its incredible customer service, much like Zappos. 498 00:32:32.670 --> 00:32:37.470 They're known for their customer service in that regard and they they basically created that. 499 00:32:37.549 --> 00:32:42.150 That's what they created. That was their subcategory, was super high end 500 00:32:42.230 --> 00:32:45.980 service for retail. No one else had done that before Nordstrom did. So 501 00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:51.180 they created a subcategory within the retail store, within the department store category, 502 00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:54.460 and it really took off and they still own that position today. So sure. 503 00:32:54.619 --> 00:32:58.890 So, if you have this idea that you're you want to build a 504 00:32:59.210 --> 00:33:01.130 category, you want to build a sad category. It at least some of 505 00:33:01.170 --> 00:33:05.490 the startup founders that I've talked to you, when I've actually shared this framework 506 00:33:05.490 --> 00:33:07.130 with a few of them, and a lot of times I hear, well, 507 00:33:07.369 --> 00:33:10.650 we want to be missionaries, and it's like it's for some reason I 508 00:33:10.890 --> 00:33:15.359 think that like comes across as more appealing, like it sounds more adventurous or 509 00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:17.359 interesting, but you're saying like you can be a mother, you can be 510 00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:21.279 in the cannon, you can be product focused, you can be customer experience 511 00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:24.279 focused or focus on a market niche and design any category. It's just with 512 00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:28.630 a different Lens than you might if you're doing the next big thing. Yeah, 513 00:33:28.670 --> 00:33:32.029 I think everybody who doesn't want to be like Steve Jobs or how rigihoals 514 00:33:32.069 --> 00:33:36.069 or Elon Musk or Richard Brandson? Of course, I mean we look up 515 00:33:36.109 --> 00:33:37.910 to these people. They are the heroes of our time, right, so 516 00:33:38.029 --> 00:33:42.299 of course we all want to be like them. But when you really just 517 00:33:42.460 --> 00:33:45.940 liked I, you can't, your viewers can't see me, but I'm five 518 00:33:45.980 --> 00:33:50.940 foot three and I'm stocky and I do not at all look like a ballerina. 519 00:33:51.140 --> 00:33:53.099 So when I was a child I took a lot of ballet and I 520 00:33:53.180 --> 00:33:57.170 wanted to be a ballerina. But if I look at my DNA, I 521 00:33:57.329 --> 00:34:00.809 say to myself at some point when I was like sixteen, this ain't going 522 00:34:00.849 --> 00:34:04.369 to happen. You're not going to be an all area. So it's like 523 00:34:04.450 --> 00:34:07.369 you have to look at who you actually are in order to make something of 524 00:34:07.449 --> 00:34:12.079 it. And so even though everybody wants to be a missionary, you know 525 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.679 you can't pretend you're a missionary if you're not. And and it's like I 526 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:19.719 couldn't pretend I was a Bellerina if I really wasn't. So it's really important 527 00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:22.519 to understand and who you are. And there's a lot of companies in all 528 00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:27.829 three of those categories that have built their built ginormous industries, right, but 529 00:34:27.949 --> 00:34:30.789 not around the idea of being a missionary. So if you happen to be 530 00:34:30.230 --> 00:34:35.190 Steve Jobs or Elon Must Kate, more power to probably will do lots of 531 00:34:35.230 --> 00:34:38.820 great things. Yeah, yeah, so would you consider like Larry Ellison or 532 00:34:38.860 --> 00:34:44.699 Bill Gates, even though they have high profiles? Would you consider them missionaries? 533 00:34:45.460 --> 00:34:49.420 No, I would not, and I know both of them and people 534 00:34:49.699 --> 00:34:53.210 brilliantly, but not missionaries. Okay, cool. So we talked about category, 535 00:34:53.210 --> 00:34:58.130 we talked about positioning. I want to talk a little bit about braining 536 00:34:58.530 --> 00:35:01.769 because I remember you have a little bit of a bone to pick and I 537 00:35:02.050 --> 00:35:07.639 have the same kind of bone to pick about doing braining in isolation, especially 538 00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:12.800 before positioning. So tell me more about that. Why it's so important to 539 00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:16.400 do braining at the right time with the right context. Yeah, it comes 540 00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:21.829 from a philosophy that I have again about companies being like people. We all 541 00:35:21.909 --> 00:35:24.590 do better in life if we think about something before we act. Right we 542 00:35:24.869 --> 00:35:30.030 the rational side of us, is a smarter side and we do. We 543 00:35:30.150 --> 00:35:32.429 do better things if we think about something before we act on it and then 544 00:35:32.510 --> 00:35:37.219 we attach the emotion later. So the same as true with companies. If 545 00:35:37.260 --> 00:35:39.420 you I look at positioning as the rational side of a company and I look 546 00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:43.380 at branding is the emotional side, and you got to have both of them 547 00:35:43.420 --> 00:35:45.420 because just like in a human we need a rational side and we need an 548 00:35:45.500 --> 00:35:49.940 emotional side, we need a heart and we need a head. Right, 549 00:35:50.329 --> 00:35:53.849 but when you're a company it's so much easier to lead with the with the 550 00:35:53.929 --> 00:35:58.849 emotion, with the heart, because it's sexy, it's colorful, it's a 551 00:35:58.969 --> 00:36:01.090 great thing for a new CMO to do when they come into a company because 552 00:36:01.130 --> 00:36:06.360 it creates a lot of you know, a lot of action and colors and 553 00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:09.079 you know, storyboards and all this sexy stuff. It looks like stuff is 554 00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:13.119 happening right, but what happens is you spend a bunch of money on that 555 00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:15.480 and it's all around the emotional side of it. It's all about the tagline, 556 00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:20.429 at the colors and the logo and the you know, the bushy stuff, 557 00:36:20.429 --> 00:36:22.070 as I like to call the heart stuff, and then it goes out 558 00:36:22.110 --> 00:36:25.510 there and then you realize, like sometimes, as little as a week later. 559 00:36:25.670 --> 00:36:30.190 Holy Kid, that's not at all who we are, right. That's 560 00:36:30.269 --> 00:36:34.619 that's my dream of the sexy Andy, not my dream of the real anti 561 00:36:34.860 --> 00:36:37.780 right. So if you actually come out there and figure out who you are 562 00:36:38.099 --> 00:36:44.139 first and position yourself rationally, then do the emotional stuff, then you're basing 563 00:36:44.179 --> 00:36:49.010 all of that emotions on on something that's actually real and it works so much 564 00:36:49.050 --> 00:36:52.010 better. And I can there's millions of companies that have gone through this exercise 565 00:36:52.210 --> 00:36:57.650 only to destroy it later. There's a company called flex. You Know Flextronic? 566 00:36:57.730 --> 00:37:00.329 He used to be called flextronics. Now it's called flex. No, 567 00:37:00.489 --> 00:37:05.599 it's absolutely here. It's a B Tob many contract manufacturing company. Gigantic, 568 00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:08.719 gigantic outre valley. They went through them, but they hired a new CMO 569 00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:14.360 about four or five years ago. He came in, he rebranded the entire 570 00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:16.909 company. He changed the name. He went from flextronics to flex. They 571 00:37:16.989 --> 00:37:22.590 change the entire advertising and positioning and tagline and everything came up with the new 572 00:37:22.630 --> 00:37:24.829 tagline was called from sketch to scale. It was super creative. I know 573 00:37:24.949 --> 00:37:29.030 the creative team who did it was one and eighty five design they were they 574 00:37:29.070 --> 00:37:34.219 were brilliant. They launched this campaign and literally a year later they killed everything 575 00:37:34.820 --> 00:37:37.579 because none of it, none of it was reflective of who the company actually 576 00:37:37.619 --> 00:37:42.179 was. And here's how they discovered that. Right they they looked at they 577 00:37:42.219 --> 00:37:44.929 had this notion of sketch to scale. You know, so we will help 578 00:37:44.969 --> 00:37:46.329 you at the very small end of what it is you're building. It's a 579 00:37:46.369 --> 00:37:50.130 tiny little software APP all the way I up to if you're building another apple 580 00:37:50.210 --> 00:37:52.329 computer, will do all of it. They looked at their revenue and where 581 00:37:52.329 --> 00:37:55.809 it was coming from and see Eurow was coming from the sketch part of it. 582 00:37:57.050 --> 00:38:00.000 So the whole promise of from sketch to scale was false because they didn't 583 00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:05.480 do any of the sketch stuff. So they basically fired the CEO, they 584 00:38:05.559 --> 00:38:08.800 fired the CEMO and they brought in a new a new team and they killed 585 00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:12.760 all of that. And it was it, I don't know, a couple 586 00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:15.949 million dollars at least in creative work that was done on that, on that 587 00:38:16.110 --> 00:38:19.949 product, and it was brilliant creative work. That's the thing about it. 588 00:38:19.989 --> 00:38:22.429 Was Brilliant. It just didn't match with the company. It wasn't authentic to 589 00:38:22.510 --> 00:38:27.260 who the company was. Sure and that that work on the creative or the 590 00:38:27.300 --> 00:38:30.539 cost of the creative work, probably pales in comparison to the opportunity costs of 591 00:38:30.699 --> 00:38:36.059 confusing the market and making pet m sure of what you're really about exactly. 592 00:38:36.340 --> 00:38:38.780 I knew the people who did it. They're brilliant people. That was super 593 00:38:38.860 --> 00:38:44.210 creative work. If the company could have changed itself to become that, that 594 00:38:44.329 --> 00:38:46.690 would have been great, but the people that were doing this work didn't didn't 595 00:38:46.730 --> 00:38:50.730 have the power to actually change the company from the ground up. They were 596 00:38:50.769 --> 00:38:54.050 just changing the marketing. Sure they were putting the Bellerina costume on top of 597 00:38:54.170 --> 00:38:59.639 the five foot three person. Yeah, well, yeah, that's right. 598 00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:01.519 Like, if you think about it in terms of maybe like a job interview, 599 00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:04.880 you know you'll have to pick out, of course, something to wear 600 00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:07.800 to your job interview, but depending on what kind of position you're applying for 601 00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:10.110 and what kind of impression you want to create, you might pick something that 602 00:39:10.190 --> 00:39:14.710 looks really interesting and is finding creative, but it might create the totally wrong 603 00:39:14.750 --> 00:39:19.349 impression or it might not reflect the kind of personality that you're comfortable with and 604 00:39:19.389 --> 00:39:22.630 then you're going to feel awkward wearing these clothes and it's going to going to 605 00:39:22.630 --> 00:39:24.539 come across. People will see right through it. And it sounds like that's 606 00:39:24.539 --> 00:39:29.659 exactly what can happen to a company when they put on this new kind of 607 00:39:29.820 --> 00:39:34.619 persona or visual identity or and about how they want to look. But if 608 00:39:34.619 --> 00:39:38.050 it's not something they're trying to achieve or reflective of are who they already are, 609 00:39:38.610 --> 00:39:42.570 then it's not going to last. That's exactly right. So so you 610 00:39:42.650 --> 00:39:45.730 are so much better off if you just figure out who you are first and 611 00:39:45.809 --> 00:39:51.969 then create a position around that and then do all that sexy fun branding stuff 612 00:39:51.969 --> 00:39:54.719 that aligns with that position. You're going to be way better off and you'll 613 00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:58.440 be ahead of the game instead of instead of behind the eight ball, which 614 00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:00.679 is what happens to all of these companies. But that said, positioning is 615 00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:06.440 a heart. It's a rigorous, hardcore examination of who you are. It 616 00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:09.269 ain't easy, right and it's not it's not that much fun. The fun 617 00:40:09.389 --> 00:40:13.989 part is all the sixty stuff. So people, you know, when you're 618 00:40:13.989 --> 00:40:16.070 a new CMO and you're coming into a company, you want people to notice 619 00:40:16.110 --> 00:40:19.469 you. You want to make a difference, you want to see you want 620 00:40:19.469 --> 00:40:22.980 to see visible change. None of that happens with positioning, because it's like, 621 00:40:23.579 --> 00:40:27.420 Oh, this is my DNA and this is my category and all these 622 00:40:27.500 --> 00:40:30.260 questions that are so hard to answer, and nobody, nobody, who goes 623 00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:32.659 home at the end of the day and goes, oh my gosh, I'm 624 00:40:32.739 --> 00:40:36.369 in the ex category. You know, they just, you know, if 625 00:40:36.409 --> 00:40:38.449 they don't talk about it at home with their spouse and their family. They 626 00:40:38.489 --> 00:40:42.969 talked about the new tagline, they came up with the new ad campaign. 627 00:40:43.289 --> 00:40:46.289 Yeah, so it's you know, emotional things are so much more attractive to 628 00:40:46.409 --> 00:40:51.559 people, but if they're not based in reality, there either, they fizzle 629 00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:54.320 into the ether very easily. So what do you tell a company who is 630 00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:59.880 you can see from the outside that they haven't thought through their positioning. Maybe 631 00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:04.349 it's not even on their radar for whatever reason, and they're getting hung up 632 00:41:04.389 --> 00:41:07.429 on this the braining side of things or the outward facing things. What do 633 00:41:07.469 --> 00:41:10.510 you say to them to kind of change their way of thinking and really get 634 00:41:10.550 --> 00:41:15.150 them focused on doing the right things? First, what happens to me and 635 00:41:15.230 --> 00:41:19.300 the way I get brought into companies as they've already hired those branding companies and 636 00:41:19.420 --> 00:41:23.260 then it's not it's not creating any traction. So so I come in after 637 00:41:23.260 --> 00:41:28.219 they've already spent the several million dollars or however much money at costs, and 638 00:41:28.340 --> 00:41:30.219 I say, well, this is what happened to you, right, you 639 00:41:30.500 --> 00:41:35.809 got seduced by your own language, and that's understandable. But now that we 640 00:41:35.929 --> 00:41:37.849 have to do is we have to look at who you actually are and see 641 00:41:37.929 --> 00:41:43.329 what of that branding stuff that you've done can we actually you know, can 642 00:41:43.409 --> 00:41:45.289 we use some of it, or or do we need to toss all of 643 00:41:45.329 --> 00:41:49.239 it if it's not based in reality? So I don't usually get a chance 644 00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:53.519 to see them before they've already made their mistake. So that's one of the 645 00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:57.880 reasons I wrote the book is I really want people to think about this before 646 00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:02.230 they take action, because it's it saves time and money and and market leadership. 647 00:42:02.389 --> 00:42:06.429 Right. It's like you can't go out there and pretend you're something and 648 00:42:06.590 --> 00:42:09.389 try to build a leadership position on it, then have people discovered that it's 649 00:42:09.389 --> 00:42:13.230 not true and then you have to fall the fall from grace and start all 650 00:42:13.269 --> 00:42:17.460 over again. Right, right. What's your advice for an earlier stage company 651 00:42:17.500 --> 00:42:23.619 who doesn't have millions to spend on raining, positioning, consulting any of that 652 00:42:23.699 --> 00:42:27.860 they're just trying to get started and get the right foundation in place. How 653 00:42:27.900 --> 00:42:30.969 should they think through positioning? What's like? Should they try to still try 654 00:42:31.010 --> 00:42:35.730 to bring in someone from the outside because you have that unique, more objective 655 00:42:35.889 --> 00:42:37.530 perspective? Should they try to do it themselves? What have you seen? 656 00:42:38.090 --> 00:42:43.769 Well, I think for startup companies, branding is a less is less important, 657 00:42:43.809 --> 00:42:45.920 right, because really you just have to identify who you are and why 658 00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:49.840 you matter. Right. That's the most important thing for a startup company and 659 00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:52.920 then later you can add the pretty stuff that goes with it. But but 660 00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:57.840 I would advise startup companies to to either, if they really don't have any 661 00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:00.349 money, to just read the book and follow the follow the methodology, because 662 00:43:00.349 --> 00:43:04.070 that will give you a lot of information. It helps to have an outside 663 00:43:04.070 --> 00:43:07.710 person who's been through that a bunch like I have, where I can actually 664 00:43:07.710 --> 00:43:10.190 help companies, you know, connect to the dots, because really what you're 665 00:43:10.190 --> 00:43:14.260 doing with my methodologies you're creating a bunch of new dots, right, and 666 00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:16.500 then you have to then you have to connect them into into a logical, 667 00:43:17.139 --> 00:43:21.539 logical conclusion. But you know, it doesn't cost much money to do that, 668 00:43:21.739 --> 00:43:23.900 right. You just follow that methodology. But really, if you can 669 00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:28.449 answer the question for yourself as a company, who are you and why do 670 00:43:28.530 --> 00:43:31.329 you matter, you've got you've got the answer right. So whatever methodology you 671 00:43:31.449 --> 00:43:35.409 used to get through there, whether it's my book or somebody else's, those 672 00:43:35.409 --> 00:43:37.769 are the two questions you have to answer. Who are you as a company 673 00:43:37.849 --> 00:43:39.690 and why do you matter? And if you can answer those two questions you 674 00:43:39.769 --> 00:43:45.320 understand what your position is and then you can do the fun taglines and color 675 00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:47.840 pellettes and logos and all that cool stuff. Yeah, because that's going to 676 00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:53.880 in reinforce who you are and why you matter through and other means. Any 677 00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:58.909 good designer will tell you we want the logo of the company should reflect the 678 00:43:58.949 --> 00:44:04.110 company. That's kind of the the idea form should follow a function. That's 679 00:44:04.110 --> 00:44:07.510 a that's a big design promise. But so many people don't understand that. 680 00:44:07.710 --> 00:44:14.460 They just they're so seduced by the fun and the glitz of creation, of 681 00:44:14.579 --> 00:44:21.059 creativity. But positioning is not a creative act. Positioning is a rigorous thought 682 00:44:21.460 --> 00:44:25.170 process that involves research and and understanding of what's going on in the market. 683 00:44:25.170 --> 00:44:30.050 It's not as exciting, it's kind of boring. It's hard work. You 684 00:44:30.170 --> 00:44:32.170 know, it's like, I understand what your personality is like. Are you 685 00:44:32.329 --> 00:44:37.250 and IANTJ? If you if you look at the Myers breaksing or EANTP or 686 00:44:37.289 --> 00:44:40.159 whatever the heck it is, you might be like examining that with yourself. 687 00:44:40.360 --> 00:44:45.800 Takes some hard work. Yeah, you mentioned doing a lot of work to 688 00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:49.280 research the market. Do you the work you've done? Do you tend to 689 00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:54.070 do a lot of first party research? Do you rely on other information you 690 00:44:54.150 --> 00:44:58.550 find? You use like surveys, interviews? What's your process look like? 691 00:44:58.710 --> 00:45:01.429 Grant will use all of that. So you know, we what we're trying 692 00:45:01.469 --> 00:45:06.389 to look at is the is, the is the landscape that a company is 693 00:45:06.670 --> 00:45:08.820 putting itself in. So that landscape has a number of things in it, 694 00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:13.659 right, and those are the six lenses that I talked about. The landscape 695 00:45:13.699 --> 00:45:15.619 that you're putting yourself in as a company. It includes, you know, 696 00:45:15.739 --> 00:45:20.860 the community that you're serving, which includes your customers as well as their influencers. 697 00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:23.929 It includes the category that you're in. It includes the context in which 698 00:45:23.929 --> 00:45:27.889 you are doing this, like doing something today is very different from doing it 699 00:45:28.010 --> 00:45:32.010 twenty years ago. The competition is another critical piece of it. Your DNA, 700 00:45:32.210 --> 00:45:36.559 the core DNA, is another piece of it. And then the sixth, 701 00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:38.840 the six Lens that we look at is is how would you define a 702 00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:44.039 successful positioning statement? You know, we call that criteria. So we want 703 00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:46.719 you to figure out what your criteria is for a great position statement before you 704 00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:50.829 actually write it, so you don't get seduced by some sex and tagline. 705 00:45:51.150 --> 00:45:55.110 So anyway, we look at the landscape that you're launching into and we use 706 00:45:55.230 --> 00:46:00.230 that in our favor. Right there they are contextual waves that you can ride. 707 00:46:00.750 --> 00:46:02.230 So you want to figure out how to ride one. Like if you're 708 00:46:02.309 --> 00:46:07.300 software company today, you wouldn't and you're not in the cloud, you're not 709 00:46:07.340 --> 00:46:10.139 going to get any traction with anyone. Right. That's the contextual wave that 710 00:46:10.219 --> 00:46:13.980 we are in right now. It's all about cloud delivery, so you have 711 00:46:14.059 --> 00:46:15.860 to be a cloud company. So it's stuff like that that we look at 712 00:46:16.099 --> 00:46:22.449 and help companies figure out how to position themselves within each of these lenses so 713 00:46:22.610 --> 00:46:28.170 that they can stand out, because your brain notices what's different within a context 714 00:46:28.329 --> 00:46:34.039 of a category. So so really thinking through just what's like you said, 715 00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:37.559 the context of the market that you're trying to serve. How do you define 716 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:39.599 the company internally? What's it made of? A then how do you how 717 00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:44.079 do those two relate to each other? That's that all feeds into your positioning 718 00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:47.429 and all the work that extends after that. Yeah, exactly. So you 719 00:46:47.510 --> 00:46:52.230 know, we've tried to figure out where are you the same? That's the 720 00:46:52.309 --> 00:46:54.349 category. Where are you the same as everyone else? And once we understand 721 00:46:54.349 --> 00:46:59.070 where you're just saying, then how can you look of you stand out within 722 00:46:59.190 --> 00:47:01.500 that that see of Sameness, as people like to call it? Sure, 723 00:47:01.500 --> 00:47:05.659 sure, all right. Any we are almost out of time, but I 724 00:47:06.300 --> 00:47:09.179 want to ask you if you have any other advice you want to leave marketers 725 00:47:09.260 --> 00:47:15.420 or executives, anyone thinking about messaging and positioning, any other advice you want 726 00:47:15.420 --> 00:47:19.210 to leave with them today? Sure, I just two things. One is 727 00:47:19.610 --> 00:47:22.329 alignment is critical. So everyone in the company has to be aligned on what 728 00:47:22.449 --> 00:47:27.050 the messaging is, because you don't want one person saying one thing and another 729 00:47:27.090 --> 00:47:30.199 person saying something else and by the person saying something else. So alignment is 730 00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:32.599 critical. And then positioning is critical. Right, you need you need to 731 00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:36.679 own a position, because if you don't own it, somebody else will. 732 00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:40.519 So the idea is create alignment among your executive team and on the messaging and 733 00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:44.349 then own, own a position, and with those two things you can go 734 00:47:44.429 --> 00:47:46.630 a long, long way. You don't need a lot of money, all 735 00:47:46.670 --> 00:47:51.150 right. So create alignment, own a position, getting get advice. To 736 00:47:51.190 --> 00:47:54.230 end with what's the best way for one of our listeners to get in touch 737 00:47:54.230 --> 00:47:59.579 with you? We have a website. It's called get to Aha. We 738 00:47:59.659 --> 00:48:02.780 have two websites, cutting him collectivecom and get to a hacom. I have 739 00:48:02.860 --> 00:48:07.739 a book that I'd love for you to for people on your listenership to to 740 00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:13.050 check out and buy, because now I'm in the bookselling business for Bible. 741 00:48:13.090 --> 00:48:15.690 I Amazon. It's called get to a Huh, and that's probably I'm a 742 00:48:15.809 --> 00:48:20.769 social be down on Linkedin. I'm also on twitter, so I'm Andy Cunningham 743 00:48:20.889 --> 00:48:24.250 for a twittercom. Any kind of hymn for all right, more of us, 744 00:48:25.809 --> 00:48:29.119 a good deal, all right, well, any thank you so much 745 00:48:29.119 --> 00:48:30.880 for being with me today. I learned a time from you. Really appreciate 746 00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:34.039 you being on the show. Well, thank you, John, was a 747 00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:38.480 real pleasure. Thank you, take care. Thanks by bye. Okay. 748 00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:43.670 Well, that reps up this episode of the Category Creation Series. I hope 749 00:48:43.670 --> 00:48:46.389 you enjoyed it and I hope that this episode helped you in some small way 750 00:48:46.630 --> 00:48:50.230 to become a better marketer. Now, if you want to get in touch 751 00:48:50.269 --> 00:48:53.789 with me, you can just head to John Dot Marketing in your browser or, 752 00:48:53.909 --> 00:48:58.219 of course, you can find me on Linkedin. Thanks for listening. 753 00:48:58.380 --> 00:49:05.420 I'll see you next time. I hate it when podcasts incessantly ask their listeners 754 00:49:05.500 --> 00:49:08.179 for reviews, but I get why they do it, because reviews are enormously 755 00:49:08.219 --> 00:49:12.650 helpful when you're trying to grow a podcast audience. So here's what we decided 756 00:49:12.690 --> 00:49:15.409 to do. If you leave a review for me to be growth and apple 757 00:49:15.489 --> 00:49:20.449 podcasts and email me a screenshot of the review to James At sweetfish Mediacom, 758 00:49:20.769 --> 00:49:23.090 I'll send you a signed copy of my new book, content based networking, 759 00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:27.760 how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. We get a review, 760 00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:29.920 you get a free book. We both win.
