Transcript
WEBVTT
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Are you struggling to come up with
original content weekend and week out? Start
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a podcast, interview your ideal clients, let them talk about what they care
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about most, and never run out
of content ideas again. Learn more at
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sweet fish Mediacom. You're listening to
BB growth, a daily podcast for B
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TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've
probably heard before, like Gary vanner truck
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and Simon Senek, but you've probably
never heard from the majority of our guests.
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That's because the bulk of our interviews
aren't with professional speakers and authors.
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Most of our guests are in the
trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're
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implementing strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing BB companies
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in the world. My name is
James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet
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fish media, a podcast agency for
BB brands, and I'm also one of
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the CO hosts of this show.
When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders,
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you'll hear stories from behind the scenes
of our own business. Will share
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the ups and downs of our journey
as we attempt to take over the world.
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Just getting well, maybe let's get
into the show. Hi there,
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and welcome to the BDB growth show. This is John Rougie and I host
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our category creation series. I'm also
the VP of marketing strategy at bombomb or.
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We help you make more human connections
with the people you do business with
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through personal one to one videos.
All right, now, I don't know
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about you, but when I first
got into marketing years ago, I had
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no idea what the heck positioning was. Turns out positioning is a really important
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piece of making sure that your audience
sees you the right way. And not
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only that, positioning is something you
have to pay a special attention to if
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you're trying to create a new category. That's why today I'm going to talk
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with Andy Cunningham, who is one
of the top thinkers about positioning and also
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the author of one of my favorite
books about the topic, called get to
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Aha. Any is going to tell
us all about what positioning is, what
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it matters and how it plays into
your category design process. So, without
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further ado, let's hear from Andy
Cunningham. All right, Andy, thank
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you for being on the show today. It's great to have you here.
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Hey, it's really great to be
here. Thank you for having me yeah,
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you bet well. I know many
people have heard of you, many
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people have read Your Book Get to
a Jab, but I always like to
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ask my guests just tell us a
little bit more about themselves. Maybe some
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things we don't know about you from
the professional profile we always hear. Okay,
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let's see. Well, I was
a roller skating hostess in high school.
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Actually, no, it was college. I was a roller skating hosts
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for a restaurant college. I used
to play the trumpet. I was a
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music major in college and I was
a performance classical trumpet player and I live
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on a boat and Sawclito. Well, Hey, I'm actually a former trumpet
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player myself, which I don't think
I've ever mentioned publicly, but awesome.
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Yeah, we all love each other. All the trumpet players Love Each Other's
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a good deal. And and you
run a marketing consultant. See, it's
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called the Cunningham collective. If I'm
mistaken, that's correct. Called Cunningham collective.
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We're based in San Francisco and we
basically help companies position themselves for success
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in the market and also help them
figure out how to get traction for their
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new positions. Great, great.
And then I mentioned this earlier but you
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wrote a book called get to a
high. Anything you want to tell us
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about that before we dive in?
Yeah, well, I think the most
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important thing I'd like to say about
my book, get to a high,
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is that it is the I call
it positioning to everybody who's a marketer probably
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read positioning one, which was the
Jack, trout and all reese book that
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came out in the S, a
great book on positioning. In fact,
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they invented the concept. They were
they were very prescient. But that was
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way before the Internet and no one
has written anything about positioning since then,
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and so I felt that it was
necessary to put a real framework behind how
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you actually do this in the twenty
one century, and so I would encourage
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you, if you liked positioning one
point, oh you're really going to like
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positioning, to point out or get
to a good deal. Well, I'll
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have some more questions for you about
the book and some of the ideas in
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there as we get into the interview
a little bit further. But one of
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the questions I like to ask guests
on this series is how do you define
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categories and how do you define category
creation, category design? Yeah, that's
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it. That is a very big
and very important question. First of all,
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a category, even if you look
it up in the dictionary, a
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category is a group. There is
more than one company in it. So
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it is extraordinarily unusual for a single
company to actually create a category. What
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often happens is a company comes up
with something really interesting, they develop a
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product, they push it forward as
much as they possibly can, they run
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out of money and they die and
then the second company, you know,
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improves a little bit on that and
it's not till the third or fourth company
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that actually can actually say that they
have built a category. So I've been
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involved in many category creations and they
involve lots of companies and they involve lots
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of failure. And so if you're
lucky enough to get the company that's the
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fourth or fifth or sixth in the
in the line up with a new idea,
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then you you may have the category
king, but you're very unlikely to
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build a categories. The first person
going out doing it unlikely to be the
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first. So you've been involved in
this a few times. What are some
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what are some examples you like to
bring up when that's happened, where the
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first, second, third kind of
pioneers out there have kind of fallen by
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the wayside and it's someone later on
who's picked up the mantle. Well,
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no one remembers the ones that fell
by the wayside. That's the thing about
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category building. But you can be
sure that the ones that have won in
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any of these categories that you could
talk about, they are not the first
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ones in there. So the ones
I've been involved with, I was involved
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with the category creation of video games
work, sorrysorry, was not the first
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company to create a video game back
in the and they late s early s,
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but they they are the ones who
established that category that I was involved
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in. The category creation of what
was called back then desktop publishing, which
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is what apple and adobe, which
actually was a company, called all of
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this. But Adobe acquired at I
created this incredible new thing about how you
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could actually publish newsletters on your desktop. That was a category of many companies
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in many different industries created that category, but I was there at the beginning
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of that. I was involved in
the category creation of very light jets,
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which is a really fun one innation
space. I worked with a company called
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Eclipse Aviation, which invented the category
and ten years later they died because they
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didn't have enough funding and Honda and
a few other companies kind of just sat
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back and watched the failures that we
were having an eclips and jumped in long
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after the failure of that company and
they dominate the category today. The HANDA
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jet is one of the best very
light jets out there. So anyw I've
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been involved in a lot of these
things and seen them, seen them come
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and go. So category creation is
a very big deal, very expensive.
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Can't be the first one in,
but if you are the third of four
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U pet in, you can stand
to make a ton of money by building
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that category. Sure. So what
is it about being the first for the
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second do you think that leads to
failure? Is it? Is it could
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trying to come to market before the
market is really ready? Is it?
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Is it lack of, you know, capital to just have the staying power
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to wait for the market to come
on board? Or maybe it's something else?
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I think it's vision before market is
ready. It is the issue.
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So a lot of these companies have
great visions. I mean if you think
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about the APP if you think about
Apple, where I was I work with
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apple many years ago on the launch
of the Macintosh. If Apple, it's
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the apple to headn't existed to fund
the Development and failure of the Macintosh in
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the first few years, the Macintosh
would not have happened. It would have
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died, just like all the all
these other companies. So I think it's
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very it costs a lot of money, it takes a lot of time,
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it takes a lot of patients and
it really helps if you've got some other
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product that can fund the development of
a brand new idea. Visions are wonderful
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things, as they're all over silicon
valley, but funding the vision and having
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the vision meet the market at the
right time, in the in the right
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way is a very hit or miss
operation. Sure, sure, and you
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know, a couple examples that come
to mind for me as you're talking about
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that are, one, electric cars, which were, I think, invented
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maybe a hundred years ago. Yeah, yes, and then, of course,
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the one you hear about a lot, as well as social media,
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and with there're a couple predecessors in
social media before even facebook, who we
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talked about plenty of times who have
since fallen by the wayside. So yeah,
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that's it's a really interesting perspective because
I haven't heard that highlighted. I
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think enough in some of the discussions
I've had around category design. But everybody
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thinks it's very sexy and and successful
to build a category. But what they
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don't realize is that building a category
is different from starting a category. Right,
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creating a category, that creation of
the category, is the thing that
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is a it's you. It's like
putting a bullet to your head. If
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you're going to create a cant probably
going to die. Right. I cannot
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think of a single company that successfully
created the category from the very beginning and
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still dominates it even five, ten, twenty years later. So so sales
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force with cloud based software. They
weren't the first company to build cloud based
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software. Not. In fact,
I worked with Hewlett Packard long before sales
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force ever showed its face on the
on the market, and they had a
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cloud based so I mean cloud stuff
has been around for a long time.
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What they did is they popularized it
and they made it cool and they gave
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it they had a wonderful logo that's
in no software and they made everybody believe
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that that they were the category creators. But they were not. They built
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the category. They built their success
on the shoulders of people who had failed
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before them. Sure, and that's
how I can do it. That's how
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you build a category today. You
find a great idea that's out there and
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then you put your your stuff on
top of those shoulders and improve the heck
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out of it. And that's how
you build when you learn from the people
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who made the mistakes before you.
Yeah, is that how you describe the
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difference between category design and crack category
creation? Then well, I'll say that.
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I say to Category Design and category
creation. I probably the same sort
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of idea. The thing that I
would say is different, as is building
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a category. Like you can see
that you invented the first electric car right
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if you're still alive today, but
that doesn't mean that you built that category.
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It means you invented a new idea, that that was the very,
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very beginnings of a category that took
a hundred years to actually come to fruition.
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Sure, I'm sure you know the
the product market fit wasn't quite there
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a hundred years ago for electric cars
it is today. Yeah, let's bring
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we talked about positioning at the beginning
of our conversation. Let's bring that back
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into the next because you know they're
very positioning in category creation. Or category
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design, whatever you want to call
it, are related, but they're not
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exactly the same thing. So what
can you teach us about how we should
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understand those terms and how they relate
to each other? Sure, so,
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I think you need you need to
understand the answer to what both of those
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are for yourself as a company.
So you need to know what category you
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fit in and then you need to
know how what is your position within that
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category. So to me, understanding
your category is a very is a very
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strategic question, and that is where
you have to decide. Are you going
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to join an existing category, are
you going to attempt the death knell of
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creating a category, or are you
can create what we call subcategories? That's
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actually a place where you can maybe
make some make some headway if you're really
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feeling adventurous, and one of the
one of my favorite examples of that,
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is the dodge minivan. So Dodge, you know automotive company, had a
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problem. They had too many chassis
of a certain size and they basically were
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suffering from an inventory blood. Somebody
inside the company, I don't know who
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it was, said, Hey,
what if we don't put the sedan on
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top of that chest and put something
else on top of it. Maybe we
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can sell it. Then and they
put they scramble together a very raw what
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is today the minivan, and they
put that on top of the chassis and
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it got got a little bit of
traction. People really liked it. Then
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they started to improve it and make
it better and v Walla, a few
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years later the minivan was born.
But that that's a subcategory. It was
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brilliant. It was borne out of
a problem, like many successful things are,
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and the fact of the matter is
it's still took years to build it,
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even and they couldn't have done it
without without the funding behind, you
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know, the funding the dodge had
with other successful vehicles, right, and
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they can. They kind of were
forced to that situation, for better worse,
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with that that blood of immatory that
you mentioned. How do you see
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subcategories playing out in, say,
software? Well, I think, I
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think if you can find something that
where there's a big improvement that is required
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in an existing situation, you know, I think you can build. You
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can build a subcategory. It's still
it's not an easy thing to do,
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but I think it is. It
is possible to do it. So if
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you take, say, Oh,
you know like the whole adobe suite of
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mark getting products. Everybody it really
loves adobe and we all love their product.
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But you know, they started with
they started with the creative product.
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You know, I've forgot the name
of it, but they were actually able
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to establish a market with that.
And then what they did is they actually
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started buying companies and they started doing
their own development and creating subpieces of that
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overall thing, until one day they
said, wait a minute, what we
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really have up here is what we're
going to call the creative cloud. So
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they actually created all these, I
would say subcategories of the creative club,
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but they didn't name the creative cloud
until much later and that's when they realized,
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Oh, we have a big category, it's not even a categories,
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a product line, and all of
these little subcategories that we were trying to
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build actually fit underneath this creative cloud
idea. So would it be safe to
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say then that if you've built something, whether it's an ecosystem of products or
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maybe just a point tool, and
there's not really a great framework to describe
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what that thing is in the market, is that we're designing a subcategory comes
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into play? Yeah, I think
that's actually a great way to look at
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it. Is is sometimes you've built
something that that adds a twist or does
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something slightly different any end. That's
why the question of what is the category
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you're in a really important one,
because you need to understand if you are
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joining because the marketing is different.
If you're joining an existing category, the
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marketing is different than if you're creating
in a subcategory. So marketing the dodge
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minivan was a very different task than
marketing another sedan that looked just like the
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other savan before it. That's much
more of a commodity marketing to situation.
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Yeah, it's an important question to
answer. And then positioning is okay,
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now that you understand what category you're
in. What's your spot? You know
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what's where's your place in the sun
in that in that category? How do
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you what's your differentiator? What is
your role? What is your relevance?
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That's what that's to me, what
the positioning is. It's the dot on
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the map inside that category. So
they're not it's not an either or it's
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you've got to make these two different
decisions. One is what category you're going
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to compete in. Is that?
Yes, finding a niche within an existing
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category, or does it mean creating
and designing a new category or subcategory?
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And then, given that, what's
your what's the position then within category?
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Right, know what category and like, what are you? Are you?
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Are you cloud based software? Are
you an electric vehicle? Are you a
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video conferencing system? Yeah, tell
me more about why. Why that's so
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important for people to understand in the
in the buying process, because of how
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the mind works. The brain has
a very hard time coming up understanding brand
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new things that don't fit into all
the spaces. Your brain is kind of
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mapped out to understand things when you
see them. When you see something you've
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never seen before, your brain doesn't
know where to put it or what to
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do with it. So a lot
of times what people do, most people
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when that, when they're confronted with
that, is they push it out and
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they ignore it. And that's the
last thing you want as a marketers borring
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your product or your service. So
if you can put it into a place
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in the mind that people understand,
then you you've created an affinity for it
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from the get go and that's much
better than creating repulsion from the beginning.
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So you want it, you want
to try to create an affinity, and
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you do that by by being something
that they already recognize, and that is
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why analogies work so well, and
marketing. This is the umer of that,
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this is the apple of that.
It's because your mind works that way,
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because our world is so complex and
there's so many things our brain has
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to contend with, we use categories
as these rules of thumb for grouping things
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together and knowing what to expect.
And, like you said, if you
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don't give buyers context for what that
is, they're just confused and then,
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like, the worst thing that can
happen is will push you away about so
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first you got to you got to
create affiliation, and then once you create
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affiliation, then you can create differentiation. But if you create differentiation before filiation,
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you're kind of messed up. Sure, it's like different from what,
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if you're just saying you're different,
but you don't give context for what you're
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differentiating yourselves from or how you're better, cheaper, faster, whatever those characteristics
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are, then none of that really
makes any sense. Right. There's me
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context for people understand why, why
your product is better than the other ones
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out there. So, if you
look at Elon Musk and the one there.
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He's one of my favorite examples of
using his character and his vision as
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a differentiator. Right. So people
there have been many electric car companies,
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that there will be many more electric
car companies. He was definitely not the
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first, as we talked about a
while ago, but people want to affiliate
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with him because he's showing them a
path to a better future, not only
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with the electric cars but with SPACEX
and the boring company. And then they're
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a logical thing he's got going.
I mean he's people want to attach themselves
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to a visionary like him, and
so he uses that to market Tesla and
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that's that's brilliant. And Steve did
it too with Apple. He used his
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own personnel. Richard Branson uses it. If you have that kind of a
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personality and that asset going for you, you might as well, you know,
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use it to help help market your
company. Yeah, well, that's
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probably a great segue into some of
the principles. In your book you have
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identified these three different DNA types that
companies can use to help better understand their
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own positioning and their own messaging.
So can you walk us through what those
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are? And then I know you've
got some the six subtypes, two with
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their each. So you have to
hear your take on that. We read
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the book. Thank you. That's
yeah, yours. Thank you. So
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the thing is that companies are a
lot like people. So if you sort
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of go into the whole marketing exercise
understanding that, you're going to be a
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much better marketer. And the reason
they're like people is because they serve people
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and they're made up of people and
they make products for people. So so
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the first principle of all of this
is that companies are a lot like people.
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So within that, I looked at
a couple of hundred companies that I'd
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worked with in the past and I
tried to categorize them into to see if
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there were patterns that were forming,
and I spent quite a boit of time
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doing this and I wound up with
three piles on my desk, three piles
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of companies, and there was the
companies that were very customer focused, a
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pile of companies that were very product
focused, in a pile of companies of
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very concept focus. And then I
tried to find other thing other places to
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put them, and I couldn't.
I couldn't find a company that went into
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a new pile. So once I
looked at those piles, I examined what
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exactly is the same of all these
companies in, let's say in the customer
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focus pile. Well, they treat
people differently, they hire people differently,
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they talk about different things and meetings, they structure themselves differently, they measure
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success differently, they do all these
things differently. And then I looked at
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the things that they do and I
tried to match it up with the product
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Focus Company and I realized, Oh, they structure themselves differently and higher different
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kinds of people and measure success differently. In the same is true with the
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concept company. So that was kind
of the beginning of the idea that I
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have these three types of company.
So then, of course, because I'm
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a marketer, and give them nicknames. So I call the mothers for the
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customer focus companies, mechanics for the
product focus companies and missionaries for the concept
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focus companies. But I took it
one more step and I said, okay,
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let's say you are a mother company. Okay, how how could you
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position yourself once you understand what your
DNA is? How can you position yourself
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with that knowledge well, I and
again I tried to find more than two,
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but I can only find two in
each of these in each of these
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categories. So if you're a mother
focus company, you can only position your
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self around customer experience or customer segmentation. Now there's a million ways to position
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yourself within that, but you can
only be around a segment like Nike does.
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Nike is a mother company that focuses
on the segment of what they call
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the aspirational athlete, right, whereas
Disney is a company that focuses on customer
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experience and they focus on the experience
that their customers have with all of their
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products, especially there are their theme
parts. If you're a product focus company
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or a mechanic you focus on either
features or value. Walmart is a very
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value oriented company. Brable and Microsoft
for both very features oriented companies. And
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then the third kind, the concept
companies, of the missionaries is I like
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to call them, and I spend
a lot of time working closely with Steve
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Jobs, so I feel like I
have a great affinity for these kinds of
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companies. They position themselves either around
cult of personality like Richard Branson or Elaw
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Musk right, or themselves around the
next big thing. They're going to create
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the next big thing, and if
you look at them very, very closely,
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you'll notice that the next big thing
that they come up with is never
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the first time that that next big
thing has shown up. Even if you
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look at the IPOD that that apple
created, not the first time there was
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ever an ipod, right the remp
three players before that. It's what it's
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someone like Steve a vision. I
like Steve who can take all of the
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elements of something that is already out
there and add to it, which is
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what he did with the Macintosh,
and create something that feels new but really
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isn't all that new, and that's
that's just brilliant, brilliant product mark could
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fit stuff, I think so.
Yet, like that example of MP three
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players and I pods is really interesting
because I wonder what's would be going on
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in the minds of someone who had, you know, devented some of the
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predecessors to the IPID, these MP
three players, and I don't know enough
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about what what brands those were with
the product names, but no good.
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Everybody forgot them. So is it? Is it simply because those companies didn't
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have the right way position and kind
of television for those products. Or is
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it something bigger than that? Well, I think they didn't understand how people
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were going to use them and that
and that is as the biggest it was.
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I actually worked with one of those
companies before the IPOD came out and
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I think the name of the company
was sonnet or or something like that.
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I didn't even remember the name of
the company because they died shortly thereafter.
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But most of those companies fought that. Their vision for the product was not
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so much around music, but it
was really more around MP three players moved
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into the music. But even before
the MP three players, they were talking
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about more like what we would call
a podcast today, right when she hadn't
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been invented at that point. But
they saw them as a new way to
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have radio, right. So they
envisioned people using it as a more like
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a radio where you're at the gym
when you're going for a walk. And
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they didn't understand. They didn't understand
the positioning right. So Steve comes up,
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he says here's a thousand songs in
your pocket, like wow, that's
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what I want. I Want I
want music. I don't want radio because
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I already have radio and I wanted
in my pocket. And it's like the
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positioning was so brilliant. You know, it's just a thousand songs in your
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pocket. It's not all of this
technology Mombo jumbo and all of this.
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So that's why, that's why his
made it. But then he also reinvented
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the music industry in order to go
with it. There was there was other
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things that had to happen to make
that that a success. But but that
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was just brilliant positioning. So there
was this category design aspect where he wasn't
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just building the product, he was
building an ecosystem of things around the product
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to make good point. You.
I have the ecosystems. Like he needed
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the music industry as well as his
technology. Right, Elon Musk needs the
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whole supply chain, right, in
addition to what he's building. You can't
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do it alone. So, but
the ipod entered an existing category that at
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the time was called MP three players. But Steve didn't call her an YMP
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three player, right, that's not
what he called it. He said I'm
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just going to call it an IPOD. Right. So everybody thinks he created
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that category, but he didn't create
that category. Yeah, and those those
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names became kind of like household names
for that product. Like my kids,
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they've got amid, like these Amazon
kindles, like the kids version, but
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before that they had my old IPAD. So this's what we called it and
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that's what we still they refer to
their too doles as I pads, even
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though it's not what they are.
Yeah, yeah, so you've got these.
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There's these three DNA types, missionaries, mothers and mechanics. I want
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to ask you about how they relate
to category in a moment, but can
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you just give me a few more
examples of companies within each of those and,
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especially since this is a BDB show, if you can think of any
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examples, that would be really cool
to hear. Sure. Well, like
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I I'll start with the mechanics.
So horrible and Microsoft are the two best
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examples that I can come up with. THEM BE TO BE COMPANIES. Well,
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Microsoft is also be to see,
but they're largely be to be,
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and they are. They are so
much product oriented companies. And by the
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way, when Bill Gates started that
company he started as a product company,
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where he started as a East bought
stuff in most most product focus companies,
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they have one product and then they
buy everything else. And then both of
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those companies are are big in the
MNA, in the M A space.
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So those are those are great companies
like that. In the mother space,
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that's a little bit more challenging.
But here's what's starting to happen Amazon.
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Amazon is moving itself from a product
company. Actually first they started as a
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missionary company. Then they moved into
product. This is sort of a normal
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path of operation and now they're doing
is moving into being a mother company and
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they have started this process back several
years ago when they bought Zappos, and
393
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they didn't buy Zappos because Jeff bezos
couldn't figure out how to sell shoes online.
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They bought Zappos because they were trying
to infiltrate the company with that customer
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Centricity, that customer focus that Zappos
is so famous for and Tony Shave with
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his book delivering happiness, is so
famous for. So that was the first
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step that they took in actually becoming
a mother company and they've done many steps
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since then and the latest thing they've
done, this is probably two years old
399
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now, is they actually published a
new mission statement and they made a big
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deal about this new mission statement,
and their new mission statement is to be
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Earth's most customer centric company. And
so you can see that they've made this
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purposeful steering from where they were to
a mother company. And that includes not
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only there be a c stuff,
but also there be to be stuff with,
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you know, aws and all of
that. Right, you have that
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statements. Not a mother oriented company, than I don't know what would be
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exactly exactly. And they made a
big deal about making sure everybody knew that
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that was their new mission statement's all. It's on their website. It's very
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prominently placed. Most companies don't put
their mission statement out there like Amazon has
409
00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.789
done recently with that. And in
the missionary department. That's a that's sales
410
00:26:48.869 --> 00:26:52.430
forces, a missionary. Okay,
Jeff Mark Any off total missionary, total
411
00:26:52.509 --> 00:26:56.869
be to be company. Took something
that was a great that was struggling already
412
00:26:56.910 --> 00:27:02.299
the vote, sort of cloud software, of saying in the in the customer
413
00:27:02.380 --> 00:27:06.660
relationship management stuff, and he blew
it up into this giant thing and became
414
00:27:06.700 --> 00:27:11.299
a missionary around. How can you
build your sales force to be more successful?
415
00:27:11.380 --> 00:27:12.259
And you know, I mean I
don't even know it to be to
416
00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:18.210
be company today that doesn't use sales
for software. So sure for successful.
417
00:27:18.250 --> 00:27:22.730
Yeah, so those are three be
tob situations in those in those categories,
418
00:27:22.930 --> 00:27:26.049
and that's one of the thing about
these, these categories. Remember I said
419
00:27:26.170 --> 00:27:30.559
companies are a lot like people.
Well, just like people, when you
420
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:33.720
know what you're made of inside yourself, you can make something of it.
421
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:37.359
Right, we always tell our kids. Find what you're passionate about, find
422
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:41.119
what you're good at, and then
you know they'll down on it. Don't
423
00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:45.390
find something that you aren't good at
and try to double down on that,
424
00:27:45.509 --> 00:27:48.269
because that will never be authentic in
the market. Same is true with companies.
425
00:27:48.349 --> 00:27:52.630
Find out what you are really good
at and who you really are.
426
00:27:52.670 --> 00:27:55.910
Are you customer focused? Are Your
product focus or are you concept focused?
427
00:27:55.950 --> 00:27:59.380
And then double down on that.
And when you do that, you're marketing
428
00:27:59.500 --> 00:28:03.859
is much more authentic and it feels
like it brings true like who would believe
429
00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:07.740
that comcast is a mother company?
And who would? WHO believes there at
430
00:28:07.819 --> 00:28:11.579
campaign out there about all these great
stories they have a customers who are having
431
00:28:11.579 --> 00:28:15.690
a great time with comcast. No
one believes it because it isn't who they
432
00:28:15.690 --> 00:28:19.250
are. Right, right. Yeah, now, with a negative npscore you
433
00:28:19.329 --> 00:28:25.730
know, it's really something that you
are uncovering, not so much choosing and
434
00:28:25.809 --> 00:28:30.200
then pursuing as a direction that's right
and and it's if you're a startup company,
435
00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.359
it's probably going to be the DNA
that you you've brought to the table
436
00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:36.799
as the founder. It's probably how
it starts, and usually that starts with
437
00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:41.400
a missionary kind of idea. Not
Always. Sometimes somebody says, you know,
438
00:28:41.470 --> 00:28:45.029
boy, I have this great new
product feature and I'm going to build
439
00:28:45.029 --> 00:28:47.829
the heck out of a company around
it. And that and then that DNA
440
00:28:47.910 --> 00:28:51.269
kind of infiltrates the whole company.
So usually it starts with the founder.
441
00:28:51.630 --> 00:28:55.710
But as companies grow and mature they
can make purposeful shifts, like Amazon is
442
00:28:55.819 --> 00:28:59.660
doing, or it's happening to apple
in the market right now apple is not
443
00:28:59.819 --> 00:29:03.859
purposefully making that shift. But when
Steve Jobs died they lost their missionary right
444
00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:10.769
and unfortunately they were not able to
find another missionary. I and Tim Cook,
445
00:29:10.809 --> 00:29:14.250
who I believe is probably the world's
greatest steward of assets that he was
446
00:29:14.250 --> 00:29:18.130
left, has spent several years trying
to replace the missionary and unable to do
447
00:29:18.210 --> 00:29:22.450
so. Meanwhile, the markets pushing
them into being a product Focus Company and
448
00:29:22.650 --> 00:29:26.079
unfortunately, in my opinion, even
though they're super high valued and I think
449
00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:30.880
they've done a fabulous job, they're
a little behind the eight ball and recognizing
450
00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:33.599
that that's what they are today,
that their product company today. There in
451
00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:37.440
fact, I call them an essential
luxury brand. You know, they're like
452
00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.349
Louis Baton, except you. Except
you need your Louis Baton Right. You
453
00:29:41.509 --> 00:29:44.990
need your you need your if you're
if you live your life on the on
454
00:29:45.109 --> 00:29:48.990
the Onios, you will pay the
extra money for it and because you think
455
00:29:49.029 --> 00:29:52.460
it's a luxury but you need it. So an essential luxury is a really
456
00:29:52.500 --> 00:29:56.140
unusual position that they have in the
market place today. But they got to
457
00:29:56.180 --> 00:30:00.700
make sure their products are workinging really
well. Right, and a lot of
458
00:30:00.779 --> 00:30:03.140
the products save anounced recently. I
don't know about you, but I wouldn't
459
00:30:03.140 --> 00:30:07.849
describe them as next big things like
the apple credit card, you know,
460
00:30:08.170 --> 00:30:12.049
the next generation of are pods like. They're interesting products, are good products,
461
00:30:12.450 --> 00:30:17.250
but they're not like game changing categories
we've never heard of before. They
462
00:30:17.329 --> 00:30:19.849
haven't had a next big thing since
since Steve Died, since a long,
463
00:30:21.089 --> 00:30:25.039
long time, yeah, long,
and they're not they're not going to but
464
00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:26.559
they're. What they're going to do
is they're going to continue to evolve those
465
00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.480
products, they're going to become more
of a services company, they're going to
466
00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:34.910
try to make themselves essential to your
lifestyle, and that's but my big beef
467
00:30:36.029 --> 00:30:38.829
on apple these days actually is that
back in the day they developed. They
468
00:30:40.309 --> 00:30:44.309
the reason that the Macintosh became successful
after Steve went back to apple is because
469
00:30:44.349 --> 00:30:48.470
he recognized there was a tribe of
people who were so dependent and in love
470
00:30:48.589 --> 00:30:52.099
and patient about the Macintosh and he
tagged into that tribe and then grew that
471
00:30:52.299 --> 00:30:56.259
tribe. And it turns out that
tribe or creative people. They were the
472
00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:59.779
people who think different right. That
was his whole ad campaign. Well,
473
00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:03.539
he when he discovered that, which
he didn't know when he sat apple the
474
00:31:03.619 --> 00:31:06.289
first time. He when he discovered
that and double down on it. He
475
00:31:06.369 --> 00:31:08.490
was then able to grow the tribe. Today, you know what is it
476
00:31:08.569 --> 00:31:11.529
nine years after he died? Nope, they don't. Nobody knows who the
477
00:31:11.609 --> 00:31:15.369
apple tried to is anymore. No
one has idea. You know, what
478
00:31:15.609 --> 00:31:18.519
is the Apple User? It's like
we don't have a tribe anymore and and
479
00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:23.920
we need they need to define who
their tribe is and and start communicating with
480
00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:27.319
their tribe, just like Steve did
back when he came and did the think
481
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:30.440
different campaign. Yeah, it sounds
like a real challenge when you're, you
482
00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:33.990
know, one of the most valuable
companies on earth and your tribe is,
483
00:31:33.309 --> 00:31:37.750
you know, a few billion people. Large exactly. It's a big challenge,
484
00:31:37.829 --> 00:31:38.950
but I think they're up to it. But I think they have to
485
00:31:38.990 --> 00:31:44.150
recognize that it is a challenge.
Sure, sure, so back to your
486
00:31:44.349 --> 00:31:48.660
your DNA types. One of the
points I remember highlighting when I read the
487
00:31:48.740 --> 00:31:53.019
book was this idea, this misperception
almost, that in order to be a
488
00:31:53.140 --> 00:31:59.140
category creator you have to be a
missionary. But I don't think you believe
489
00:31:59.140 --> 00:32:01.250
that's the case. Correct, I
don't. I think you can. You
490
00:32:01.329 --> 00:32:05.730
can build a category. Again,
I prefer to use the build rather than
491
00:32:05.809 --> 00:32:08.170
create, because I think the creators
die. I think the builders thrive,
492
00:32:08.809 --> 00:32:14.009
but I think build a category as
a mother or mechanical or missionary, and
493
00:32:14.170 --> 00:32:16.559
many of many of them have.
Actually, if you look at Nordstrom,
494
00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:21.200
is a great, I think,
a great example. I don't know people
495
00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:23.720
outside of the West Coast know what
nords from is, but it's a retail
496
00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:29.319
store out here for clothing and shoes
and men's and women's and children's and it
497
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:32.549
is. It is known for its
incredible customer service, much like Zappos.
498
00:32:32.670 --> 00:32:37.470
They're known for their customer service in
that regard and they they basically created that.
499
00:32:37.549 --> 00:32:42.150
That's what they created. That was
their subcategory, was super high end
500
00:32:42.230 --> 00:32:45.980
service for retail. No one else
had done that before Nordstrom did. So
501
00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:51.180
they created a subcategory within the retail
store, within the department store category,
502
00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:54.460
and it really took off and they
still own that position today. So sure.
503
00:32:54.619 --> 00:32:58.890
So, if you have this idea
that you're you want to build a
504
00:32:59.210 --> 00:33:01.130
category, you want to build a
sad category. It at least some of
505
00:33:01.170 --> 00:33:05.490
the startup founders that I've talked to
you, when I've actually shared this framework
506
00:33:05.490 --> 00:33:07.130
with a few of them, and
a lot of times I hear, well,
507
00:33:07.369 --> 00:33:10.650
we want to be missionaries, and
it's like it's for some reason I
508
00:33:10.890 --> 00:33:15.359
think that like comes across as more
appealing, like it sounds more adventurous or
509
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:17.359
interesting, but you're saying like you
can be a mother, you can be
510
00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:21.279
in the cannon, you can be
product focused, you can be customer experience
511
00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:24.279
focused or focus on a market niche
and design any category. It's just with
512
00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:28.630
a different Lens than you might if
you're doing the next big thing. Yeah,
513
00:33:28.670 --> 00:33:32.029
I think everybody who doesn't want to
be like Steve Jobs or how rigihoals
514
00:33:32.069 --> 00:33:36.069
or Elon Musk or Richard Brandson?
Of course, I mean we look up
515
00:33:36.109 --> 00:33:37.910
to these people. They are the
heroes of our time, right, so
516
00:33:38.029 --> 00:33:42.299
of course we all want to be
like them. But when you really just
517
00:33:42.460 --> 00:33:45.940
liked I, you can't, your
viewers can't see me, but I'm five
518
00:33:45.980 --> 00:33:50.940
foot three and I'm stocky and I
do not at all look like a ballerina.
519
00:33:51.140 --> 00:33:53.099
So when I was a child I
took a lot of ballet and I
520
00:33:53.180 --> 00:33:57.170
wanted to be a ballerina. But
if I look at my DNA, I
521
00:33:57.329 --> 00:34:00.809
say to myself at some point when
I was like sixteen, this ain't going
522
00:34:00.849 --> 00:34:04.369
to happen. You're not going to
be an all area. So it's like
523
00:34:04.450 --> 00:34:07.369
you have to look at who you
actually are in order to make something of
524
00:34:07.449 --> 00:34:12.079
it. And so even though everybody
wants to be a missionary, you know
525
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.679
you can't pretend you're a missionary if
you're not. And and it's like I
526
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:19.719
couldn't pretend I was a Bellerina if
I really wasn't. So it's really important
527
00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:22.519
to understand and who you are.
And there's a lot of companies in all
528
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:27.829
three of those categories that have built
their built ginormous industries, right, but
529
00:34:27.949 --> 00:34:30.789
not around the idea of being a
missionary. So if you happen to be
530
00:34:30.230 --> 00:34:35.190
Steve Jobs or Elon Must Kate,
more power to probably will do lots of
531
00:34:35.230 --> 00:34:38.820
great things. Yeah, yeah,
so would you consider like Larry Ellison or
532
00:34:38.860 --> 00:34:44.699
Bill Gates, even though they have
high profiles? Would you consider them missionaries?
533
00:34:45.460 --> 00:34:49.420
No, I would not, and
I know both of them and people
534
00:34:49.699 --> 00:34:53.210
brilliantly, but not missionaries. Okay, cool. So we talked about category,
535
00:34:53.210 --> 00:34:58.130
we talked about positioning. I want
to talk a little bit about braining
536
00:34:58.530 --> 00:35:01.769
because I remember you have a little
bit of a bone to pick and I
537
00:35:02.050 --> 00:35:07.639
have the same kind of bone to
pick about doing braining in isolation, especially
538
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:12.800
before positioning. So tell me more
about that. Why it's so important to
539
00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:16.400
do braining at the right time with
the right context. Yeah, it comes
540
00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:21.829
from a philosophy that I have again
about companies being like people. We all
541
00:35:21.909 --> 00:35:24.590
do better in life if we think
about something before we act. Right we
542
00:35:24.869 --> 00:35:30.030
the rational side of us, is
a smarter side and we do. We
543
00:35:30.150 --> 00:35:32.429
do better things if we think about
something before we act on it and then
544
00:35:32.510 --> 00:35:37.219
we attach the emotion later. So
the same as true with companies. If
545
00:35:37.260 --> 00:35:39.420
you I look at positioning as the
rational side of a company and I look
546
00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:43.380
at branding is the emotional side,
and you got to have both of them
547
00:35:43.420 --> 00:35:45.420
because just like in a human we
need a rational side and we need an
548
00:35:45.500 --> 00:35:49.940
emotional side, we need a heart
and we need a head. Right,
549
00:35:50.329 --> 00:35:53.849
but when you're a company it's so
much easier to lead with the with the
550
00:35:53.929 --> 00:35:58.849
emotion, with the heart, because
it's sexy, it's colorful, it's a
551
00:35:58.969 --> 00:36:01.090
great thing for a new CMO to
do when they come into a company because
552
00:36:01.130 --> 00:36:06.360
it creates a lot of you know, a lot of action and colors and
553
00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:09.079
you know, storyboards and all this
sexy stuff. It looks like stuff is
554
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:13.119
happening right, but what happens is
you spend a bunch of money on that
555
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:15.480
and it's all around the emotional side
of it. It's all about the tagline,
556
00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:20.429
at the colors and the logo and
the you know, the bushy stuff,
557
00:36:20.429 --> 00:36:22.070
as I like to call the heart
stuff, and then it goes out
558
00:36:22.110 --> 00:36:25.510
there and then you realize, like
sometimes, as little as a week later.
559
00:36:25.670 --> 00:36:30.190
Holy Kid, that's not at all
who we are, right. That's
560
00:36:30.269 --> 00:36:34.619
that's my dream of the sexy Andy, not my dream of the real anti
561
00:36:34.860 --> 00:36:37.780
right. So if you actually come
out there and figure out who you are
562
00:36:38.099 --> 00:36:44.139
first and position yourself rationally, then
do the emotional stuff, then you're basing
563
00:36:44.179 --> 00:36:49.010
all of that emotions on on something
that's actually real and it works so much
564
00:36:49.050 --> 00:36:52.010
better. And I can there's millions
of companies that have gone through this exercise
565
00:36:52.210 --> 00:36:57.650
only to destroy it later. There's
a company called flex. You Know Flextronic?
566
00:36:57.730 --> 00:37:00.329
He used to be called flextronics.
Now it's called flex. No,
567
00:37:00.489 --> 00:37:05.599
it's absolutely here. It's a B
Tob many contract manufacturing company. Gigantic,
568
00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:08.719
gigantic outre valley. They went through
them, but they hired a new CMO
569
00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:14.360
about four or five years ago.
He came in, he rebranded the entire
570
00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:16.909
company. He changed the name.
He went from flextronics to flex. They
571
00:37:16.989 --> 00:37:22.590
change the entire advertising and positioning and
tagline and everything came up with the new
572
00:37:22.630 --> 00:37:24.829
tagline was called from sketch to scale. It was super creative. I know
573
00:37:24.949 --> 00:37:29.030
the creative team who did it was
one and eighty five design they were they
574
00:37:29.070 --> 00:37:34.219
were brilliant. They launched this campaign
and literally a year later they killed everything
575
00:37:34.820 --> 00:37:37.579
because none of it, none of
it was reflective of who the company actually
576
00:37:37.619 --> 00:37:42.179
was. And here's how they discovered
that. Right they they looked at they
577
00:37:42.219 --> 00:37:44.929
had this notion of sketch to scale. You know, so we will help
578
00:37:44.969 --> 00:37:46.329
you at the very small end of
what it is you're building. It's a
579
00:37:46.369 --> 00:37:50.130
tiny little software APP all the way
I up to if you're building another apple
580
00:37:50.210 --> 00:37:52.329
computer, will do all of it. They looked at their revenue and where
581
00:37:52.329 --> 00:37:55.809
it was coming from and see Eurow
was coming from the sketch part of it.
582
00:37:57.050 --> 00:38:00.000
So the whole promise of from sketch
to scale was false because they didn't
583
00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:05.480
do any of the sketch stuff.
So they basically fired the CEO, they
584
00:38:05.559 --> 00:38:08.800
fired the CEMO and they brought in
a new a new team and they killed
585
00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:12.760
all of that. And it was
it, I don't know, a couple
586
00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:15.949
million dollars at least in creative work
that was done on that, on that
587
00:38:16.110 --> 00:38:19.949
product, and it was brilliant creative
work. That's the thing about it.
588
00:38:19.989 --> 00:38:22.429
Was Brilliant. It just didn't match
with the company. It wasn't authentic to
589
00:38:22.510 --> 00:38:27.260
who the company was. Sure and
that that work on the creative or the
590
00:38:27.300 --> 00:38:30.539
cost of the creative work, probably
pales in comparison to the opportunity costs of
591
00:38:30.699 --> 00:38:36.059
confusing the market and making pet m
sure of what you're really about exactly.
592
00:38:36.340 --> 00:38:38.780
I knew the people who did it. They're brilliant people. That was super
593
00:38:38.860 --> 00:38:44.210
creative work. If the company could
have changed itself to become that, that
594
00:38:44.329 --> 00:38:46.690
would have been great, but the
people that were doing this work didn't didn't
595
00:38:46.730 --> 00:38:50.730
have the power to actually change the
company from the ground up. They were
596
00:38:50.769 --> 00:38:54.050
just changing the marketing. Sure they
were putting the Bellerina costume on top of
597
00:38:54.170 --> 00:38:59.639
the five foot three person. Yeah, well, yeah, that's right.
598
00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:01.519
Like, if you think about it
in terms of maybe like a job interview,
599
00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:04.880
you know you'll have to pick out, of course, something to wear
600
00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:07.800
to your job interview, but depending
on what kind of position you're applying for
601
00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:10.110
and what kind of impression you want
to create, you might pick something that
602
00:39:10.190 --> 00:39:14.710
looks really interesting and is finding creative, but it might create the totally wrong
603
00:39:14.750 --> 00:39:19.349
impression or it might not reflect the
kind of personality that you're comfortable with and
604
00:39:19.389 --> 00:39:22.630
then you're going to feel awkward wearing
these clothes and it's going to going to
605
00:39:22.630 --> 00:39:24.539
come across. People will see right
through it. And it sounds like that's
606
00:39:24.539 --> 00:39:29.659
exactly what can happen to a company
when they put on this new kind of
607
00:39:29.820 --> 00:39:34.619
persona or visual identity or and about
how they want to look. But if
608
00:39:34.619 --> 00:39:38.050
it's not something they're trying to achieve
or reflective of are who they already are,
609
00:39:38.610 --> 00:39:42.570
then it's not going to last.
That's exactly right. So so you
610
00:39:42.650 --> 00:39:45.730
are so much better off if you
just figure out who you are first and
611
00:39:45.809 --> 00:39:51.969
then create a position around that and
then do all that sexy fun branding stuff
612
00:39:51.969 --> 00:39:54.719
that aligns with that position. You're
going to be way better off and you'll
613
00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:58.440
be ahead of the game instead of
instead of behind the eight ball, which
614
00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:00.679
is what happens to all of these
companies. But that said, positioning is
615
00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:06.440
a heart. It's a rigorous,
hardcore examination of who you are. It
616
00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:09.269
ain't easy, right and it's not
it's not that much fun. The fun
617
00:40:09.389 --> 00:40:13.989
part is all the sixty stuff.
So people, you know, when you're
618
00:40:13.989 --> 00:40:16.070
a new CMO and you're coming into
a company, you want people to notice
619
00:40:16.110 --> 00:40:19.469
you. You want to make a
difference, you want to see you want
620
00:40:19.469 --> 00:40:22.980
to see visible change. None of
that happens with positioning, because it's like,
621
00:40:23.579 --> 00:40:27.420
Oh, this is my DNA and
this is my category and all these
622
00:40:27.500 --> 00:40:30.260
questions that are so hard to answer, and nobody, nobody, who goes
623
00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:32.659
home at the end of the day
and goes, oh my gosh, I'm
624
00:40:32.739 --> 00:40:36.369
in the ex category. You know, they just, you know, if
625
00:40:36.409 --> 00:40:38.449
they don't talk about it at home
with their spouse and their family. They
626
00:40:38.489 --> 00:40:42.969
talked about the new tagline, they
came up with the new ad campaign.
627
00:40:43.289 --> 00:40:46.289
Yeah, so it's you know,
emotional things are so much more attractive to
628
00:40:46.409 --> 00:40:51.559
people, but if they're not based
in reality, there either, they fizzle
629
00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:54.320
into the ether very easily. So
what do you tell a company who is
630
00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:59.880
you can see from the outside that
they haven't thought through their positioning. Maybe
631
00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:04.349
it's not even on their radar for
whatever reason, and they're getting hung up
632
00:41:04.389 --> 00:41:07.429
on this the braining side of things
or the outward facing things. What do
633
00:41:07.469 --> 00:41:10.510
you say to them to kind of
change their way of thinking and really get
634
00:41:10.550 --> 00:41:15.150
them focused on doing the right things? First, what happens to me and
635
00:41:15.230 --> 00:41:19.300
the way I get brought into companies
as they've already hired those branding companies and
636
00:41:19.420 --> 00:41:23.260
then it's not it's not creating any
traction. So so I come in after
637
00:41:23.260 --> 00:41:28.219
they've already spent the several million dollars
or however much money at costs, and
638
00:41:28.340 --> 00:41:30.219
I say, well, this is
what happened to you, right, you
639
00:41:30.500 --> 00:41:35.809
got seduced by your own language,
and that's understandable. But now that we
640
00:41:35.929 --> 00:41:37.849
have to do is we have to
look at who you actually are and see
641
00:41:37.929 --> 00:41:43.329
what of that branding stuff that you've
done can we actually you know, can
642
00:41:43.409 --> 00:41:45.289
we use some of it, or
or do we need to toss all of
643
00:41:45.329 --> 00:41:49.239
it if it's not based in reality? So I don't usually get a chance
644
00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:53.519
to see them before they've already made
their mistake. So that's one of the
645
00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:57.880
reasons I wrote the book is I
really want people to think about this before
646
00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:02.230
they take action, because it's it
saves time and money and and market leadership.
647
00:42:02.389 --> 00:42:06.429
Right. It's like you can't go
out there and pretend you're something and
648
00:42:06.590 --> 00:42:09.389
try to build a leadership position on
it, then have people discovered that it's
649
00:42:09.389 --> 00:42:13.230
not true and then you have to
fall the fall from grace and start all
650
00:42:13.269 --> 00:42:17.460
over again. Right, right.
What's your advice for an earlier stage company
651
00:42:17.500 --> 00:42:23.619
who doesn't have millions to spend on
raining, positioning, consulting any of that
652
00:42:23.699 --> 00:42:27.860
they're just trying to get started and
get the right foundation in place. How
653
00:42:27.900 --> 00:42:30.969
should they think through positioning? What's
like? Should they try to still try
654
00:42:31.010 --> 00:42:35.730
to bring in someone from the outside
because you have that unique, more objective
655
00:42:35.889 --> 00:42:37.530
perspective? Should they try to do
it themselves? What have you seen?
656
00:42:38.090 --> 00:42:43.769
Well, I think for startup companies, branding is a less is less important,
657
00:42:43.809 --> 00:42:45.920
right, because really you just have
to identify who you are and why
658
00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:49.840
you matter. Right. That's the
most important thing for a startup company and
659
00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:52.920
then later you can add the pretty
stuff that goes with it. But but
660
00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:57.840
I would advise startup companies to to
either, if they really don't have any
661
00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:00.349
money, to just read the book
and follow the follow the methodology, because
662
00:43:00.349 --> 00:43:04.070
that will give you a lot of
information. It helps to have an outside
663
00:43:04.070 --> 00:43:07.710
person who's been through that a bunch
like I have, where I can actually
664
00:43:07.710 --> 00:43:10.190
help companies, you know, connect
to the dots, because really what you're
665
00:43:10.190 --> 00:43:14.260
doing with my methodologies you're creating a
bunch of new dots, right, and
666
00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:16.500
then you have to then you have
to connect them into into a logical,
667
00:43:17.139 --> 00:43:21.539
logical conclusion. But you know,
it doesn't cost much money to do that,
668
00:43:21.739 --> 00:43:23.900
right. You just follow that methodology. But really, if you can
669
00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:28.449
answer the question for yourself as a
company, who are you and why do
670
00:43:28.530 --> 00:43:31.329
you matter, you've got you've got
the answer right. So whatever methodology you
671
00:43:31.449 --> 00:43:35.409
used to get through there, whether
it's my book or somebody else's, those
672
00:43:35.409 --> 00:43:37.769
are the two questions you have to
answer. Who are you as a company
673
00:43:37.849 --> 00:43:39.690
and why do you matter? And
if you can answer those two questions you
674
00:43:39.769 --> 00:43:45.320
understand what your position is and then
you can do the fun taglines and color
675
00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:47.840
pellettes and logos and all that cool
stuff. Yeah, because that's going to
676
00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:53.880
in reinforce who you are and why
you matter through and other means. Any
677
00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:58.909
good designer will tell you we want
the logo of the company should reflect the
678
00:43:58.949 --> 00:44:04.110
company. That's kind of the the
idea form should follow a function. That's
679
00:44:04.110 --> 00:44:07.510
a that's a big design promise.
But so many people don't understand that.
680
00:44:07.710 --> 00:44:14.460
They just they're so seduced by the
fun and the glitz of creation, of
681
00:44:14.579 --> 00:44:21.059
creativity. But positioning is not a
creative act. Positioning is a rigorous thought
682
00:44:21.460 --> 00:44:25.170
process that involves research and and understanding
of what's going on in the market.
683
00:44:25.170 --> 00:44:30.050
It's not as exciting, it's kind
of boring. It's hard work. You
684
00:44:30.170 --> 00:44:32.170
know, it's like, I understand
what your personality is like. Are you
685
00:44:32.329 --> 00:44:37.250
and IANTJ? If you if you
look at the Myers breaksing or EANTP or
686
00:44:37.289 --> 00:44:40.159
whatever the heck it is, you
might be like examining that with yourself.
687
00:44:40.360 --> 00:44:45.800
Takes some hard work. Yeah,
you mentioned doing a lot of work to
688
00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:49.280
research the market. Do you the
work you've done? Do you tend to
689
00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:54.070
do a lot of first party research? Do you rely on other information you
690
00:44:54.150 --> 00:44:58.550
find? You use like surveys,
interviews? What's your process look like?
691
00:44:58.710 --> 00:45:01.429
Grant will use all of that.
So you know, we what we're trying
692
00:45:01.469 --> 00:45:06.389
to look at is the is,
the is the landscape that a company is
693
00:45:06.670 --> 00:45:08.820
putting itself in. So that landscape
has a number of things in it,
694
00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:13.659
right, and those are the six
lenses that I talked about. The landscape
695
00:45:13.699 --> 00:45:15.619
that you're putting yourself in as a
company. It includes, you know,
696
00:45:15.739 --> 00:45:20.860
the community that you're serving, which
includes your customers as well as their influencers.
697
00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:23.929
It includes the category that you're in. It includes the context in which
698
00:45:23.929 --> 00:45:27.889
you are doing this, like doing
something today is very different from doing it
699
00:45:28.010 --> 00:45:32.010
twenty years ago. The competition is
another critical piece of it. Your DNA,
700
00:45:32.210 --> 00:45:36.559
the core DNA, is another piece
of it. And then the sixth,
701
00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:38.840
the six Lens that we look at
is is how would you define a
702
00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:44.039
successful positioning statement? You know,
we call that criteria. So we want
703
00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:46.719
you to figure out what your criteria
is for a great position statement before you
704
00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:50.829
actually write it, so you don't
get seduced by some sex and tagline.
705
00:45:51.150 --> 00:45:55.110
So anyway, we look at the
landscape that you're launching into and we use
706
00:45:55.230 --> 00:46:00.230
that in our favor. Right there
they are contextual waves that you can ride.
707
00:46:00.750 --> 00:46:02.230
So you want to figure out how
to ride one. Like if you're
708
00:46:02.309 --> 00:46:07.300
software company today, you wouldn't and
you're not in the cloud, you're not
709
00:46:07.340 --> 00:46:10.139
going to get any traction with anyone. Right. That's the contextual wave that
710
00:46:10.219 --> 00:46:13.980
we are in right now. It's
all about cloud delivery, so you have
711
00:46:14.059 --> 00:46:15.860
to be a cloud company. So
it's stuff like that that we look at
712
00:46:16.099 --> 00:46:22.449
and help companies figure out how to
position themselves within each of these lenses so
713
00:46:22.610 --> 00:46:28.170
that they can stand out, because
your brain notices what's different within a context
714
00:46:28.329 --> 00:46:34.039
of a category. So so really
thinking through just what's like you said,
715
00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:37.559
the context of the market that you're
trying to serve. How do you define
716
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:39.599
the company internally? What's it made
of? A then how do you how
717
00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:44.079
do those two relate to each other? That's that all feeds into your positioning
718
00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:47.429
and all the work that extends after
that. Yeah, exactly. So you
719
00:46:47.510 --> 00:46:52.230
know, we've tried to figure out
where are you the same? That's the
720
00:46:52.309 --> 00:46:54.349
category. Where are you the same
as everyone else? And once we understand
721
00:46:54.349 --> 00:46:59.070
where you're just saying, then how
can you look of you stand out within
722
00:46:59.190 --> 00:47:01.500
that that see of Sameness, as
people like to call it? Sure,
723
00:47:01.500 --> 00:47:05.659
sure, all right. Any we
are almost out of time, but I
724
00:47:06.300 --> 00:47:09.179
want to ask you if you have
any other advice you want to leave marketers
725
00:47:09.260 --> 00:47:15.420
or executives, anyone thinking about messaging
and positioning, any other advice you want
726
00:47:15.420 --> 00:47:19.210
to leave with them today? Sure, I just two things. One is
727
00:47:19.610 --> 00:47:22.329
alignment is critical. So everyone in
the company has to be aligned on what
728
00:47:22.449 --> 00:47:27.050
the messaging is, because you don't
want one person saying one thing and another
729
00:47:27.090 --> 00:47:30.199
person saying something else and by the
person saying something else. So alignment is
730
00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:32.599
critical. And then positioning is critical. Right, you need you need to
731
00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:36.679
own a position, because if you
don't own it, somebody else will.
732
00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:40.519
So the idea is create alignment among
your executive team and on the messaging and
733
00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:44.349
then own, own a position,
and with those two things you can go
734
00:47:44.429 --> 00:47:46.630
a long, long way. You
don't need a lot of money, all
735
00:47:46.670 --> 00:47:51.150
right. So create alignment, own
a position, getting get advice. To
736
00:47:51.190 --> 00:47:54.230
end with what's the best way for
one of our listeners to get in touch
737
00:47:54.230 --> 00:47:59.579
with you? We have a website. It's called get to Aha. We
738
00:47:59.659 --> 00:48:02.780
have two websites, cutting him collectivecom
and get to a hacom. I have
739
00:48:02.860 --> 00:48:07.739
a book that I'd love for you
to for people on your listenership to to
740
00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:13.050
check out and buy, because now
I'm in the bookselling business for Bible.
741
00:48:13.090 --> 00:48:15.690
I Amazon. It's called get to
a Huh, and that's probably I'm a
742
00:48:15.809 --> 00:48:20.769
social be down on Linkedin. I'm
also on twitter, so I'm Andy Cunningham
743
00:48:20.889 --> 00:48:24.250
for a twittercom. Any kind of
hymn for all right, more of us,
744
00:48:25.809 --> 00:48:29.119
a good deal, all right,
well, any thank you so much
745
00:48:29.119 --> 00:48:30.880
for being with me today. I
learned a time from you. Really appreciate
746
00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:34.039
you being on the show. Well, thank you, John, was a
747
00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:38.480
real pleasure. Thank you, take
care. Thanks by bye. Okay.
748
00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:43.670
Well, that reps up this episode
of the Category Creation Series. I hope
749
00:48:43.670 --> 00:48:46.389
you enjoyed it and I hope that
this episode helped you in some small way
750
00:48:46.630 --> 00:48:50.230
to become a better marketer. Now, if you want to get in touch
751
00:48:50.269 --> 00:48:53.789
with me, you can just head
to John Dot Marketing in your browser or,
752
00:48:53.909 --> 00:48:58.219
of course, you can find me
on Linkedin. Thanks for listening.
753
00:48:58.380 --> 00:49:05.420
I'll see you next time. I
hate it when podcasts incessantly ask their listeners
754
00:49:05.500 --> 00:49:08.179
for reviews, but I get why
they do it, because reviews are enormously
755
00:49:08.219 --> 00:49:12.650
helpful when you're trying to grow a
podcast audience. So here's what we decided
756
00:49:12.690 --> 00:49:15.409
to do. If you leave a
review for me to be growth and apple
757
00:49:15.489 --> 00:49:20.449
podcasts and email me a screenshot of
the review to James At sweetfish Mediacom,
758
00:49:20.769 --> 00:49:23.090
I'll send you a signed copy of
my new book, content based networking,
759
00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:27.760
how to instantly connect with anyone you
want to know. We get a review,
760
00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:29.920
you get a free book. We
both win.