March 16, 2020

#CategoryCreation 19: Why Category Creators Need to Nail Positioning w/ Andy Cunningham

In this episode of the Category Creation series, we talk to , author of Get to Aha! and founder and president at Cunningham Collective. Andy has played a key role in launching tech products over her multi-decade career, including the Apple Macintosh....

In this episode of the Category Creation series, we talk to Andy Cunningham, author of Get to Aha! and founder and president at Cunningham Collective.

Andy has played a key role in launching tech products over her multi-decade career, including the Apple Macintosh.

In our interview, we discuss why positioning is so important (especially for category creators) and we break down Andy's unique approach to uncovering your company's DNA.


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Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.280 --> 00:00:10.789 Are you struggling to come up with original content weekend and week out? Start 2 00:00:10.830 --> 00:00:15.470 a podcast, interview your ideal clients, let them talk about what they care 3 00:00:15.509 --> 00:00:20.429 about most, and never run out of content ideas again. Learn more at 4 00:00:20.510 --> 00:00:29.980 sweet fish Mediacom. You're listening to BB growth, a daily podcast for B 5 00:00:30.059 --> 00:00:34.380 TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary vanner truck 6 00:00:34.420 --> 00:00:38.289 and Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard from the majority of our guests. 7 00:00:38.929 --> 00:00:42.929 That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. 8 00:00:43.490 --> 00:00:47.329 Most of our guests are in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're 9 00:00:47.369 --> 00:00:52.840 implementing strategy, they're experimenting with tactics, they're building the fastest growing BB companies 10 00:00:52.840 --> 00:00:56.039 in the world. My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet 11 00:00:56.039 --> 00:00:59.679 fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm also one of 12 00:00:59.719 --> 00:01:03.679 the CO hosts of this show. When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders, 13 00:01:03.880 --> 00:01:07.430 you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of our own business. Will share 14 00:01:07.510 --> 00:01:10.829 the ups and downs of our journey as we attempt to take over the world. 15 00:01:11.469 --> 00:01:19.980 Just getting well, maybe let's get into the show. Hi there, 16 00:01:21.019 --> 00:01:23.500 and welcome to the BDB growth show. This is John Rougie and I host 17 00:01:23.579 --> 00:01:30.019 our category creation series. I'm also the VP of marketing strategy at bombomb or. 18 00:01:30.060 --> 00:01:33.209 We help you make more human connections with the people you do business with 19 00:01:33.810 --> 00:01:37.329 through personal one to one videos. All right, now, I don't know 20 00:01:37.370 --> 00:01:40.090 about you, but when I first got into marketing years ago, I had 21 00:01:40.930 --> 00:01:46.930 no idea what the heck positioning was. Turns out positioning is a really important 22 00:01:46.930 --> 00:01:49.799 piece of making sure that your audience sees you the right way. And not 23 00:01:49.959 --> 00:01:53.680 only that, positioning is something you have to pay a special attention to if 24 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:57.480 you're trying to create a new category. That's why today I'm going to talk 25 00:01:57.519 --> 00:02:02.430 with Andy Cunningham, who is one of the top thinkers about positioning and also 26 00:02:02.870 --> 00:02:07.150 the author of one of my favorite books about the topic, called get to 27 00:02:07.709 --> 00:02:10.750 Aha. Any is going to tell us all about what positioning is, what 28 00:02:10.909 --> 00:02:15.340 it matters and how it plays into your category design process. So, without 29 00:02:15.460 --> 00:02:21.460 further ado, let's hear from Andy Cunningham. All right, Andy, thank 30 00:02:21.500 --> 00:02:23.780 you for being on the show today. It's great to have you here. 31 00:02:23.099 --> 00:02:25.900 Hey, it's really great to be here. Thank you for having me yeah, 32 00:02:25.979 --> 00:02:30.409 you bet well. I know many people have heard of you, many 33 00:02:30.449 --> 00:02:35.050 people have read Your Book Get to a Jab, but I always like to 34 00:02:35.090 --> 00:02:38.210 ask my guests just tell us a little bit more about themselves. Maybe some 35 00:02:38.330 --> 00:02:43.490 things we don't know about you from the professional profile we always hear. Okay, 36 00:02:43.650 --> 00:02:46.280 let's see. Well, I was a roller skating hostess in high school. 37 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:50.639 Actually, no, it was college. I was a roller skating hosts 38 00:02:50.639 --> 00:02:53.280 for a restaurant college. I used to play the trumpet. I was a 39 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:59.030 music major in college and I was a performance classical trumpet player and I live 40 00:02:59.110 --> 00:03:05.430 on a boat and Sawclito. Well, Hey, I'm actually a former trumpet 41 00:03:05.629 --> 00:03:09.310 player myself, which I don't think I've ever mentioned publicly, but awesome. 42 00:03:09.710 --> 00:03:14.780 Yeah, we all love each other. All the trumpet players Love Each Other's 43 00:03:15.620 --> 00:03:20.419 a good deal. And and you run a marketing consultant. See, it's 44 00:03:20.460 --> 00:03:24.379 called the Cunningham collective. If I'm mistaken, that's correct. Called Cunningham collective. 45 00:03:24.419 --> 00:03:30.289 We're based in San Francisco and we basically help companies position themselves for success 46 00:03:30.330 --> 00:03:34.530 in the market and also help them figure out how to get traction for their 47 00:03:34.689 --> 00:03:37.969 new positions. Great, great. And then I mentioned this earlier but you 48 00:03:38.050 --> 00:03:40.250 wrote a book called get to a high. Anything you want to tell us 49 00:03:40.250 --> 00:03:45.039 about that before we dive in? Yeah, well, I think the most 50 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:46.599 important thing I'd like to say about my book, get to a high, 51 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:52.520 is that it is the I call it positioning to everybody who's a marketer probably 52 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:54.750 read positioning one, which was the Jack, trout and all reese book that 53 00:03:54.830 --> 00:03:59.110 came out in the S, a great book on positioning. In fact, 54 00:03:59.430 --> 00:04:02.430 they invented the concept. They were they were very prescient. But that was 55 00:04:02.590 --> 00:04:06.590 way before the Internet and no one has written anything about positioning since then, 56 00:04:06.949 --> 00:04:12.699 and so I felt that it was necessary to put a real framework behind how 57 00:04:12.699 --> 00:04:15.540 you actually do this in the twenty one century, and so I would encourage 58 00:04:15.540 --> 00:04:17.860 you, if you liked positioning one point, oh you're really going to like 59 00:04:17.939 --> 00:04:21.620 positioning, to point out or get to a good deal. Well, I'll 60 00:04:21.620 --> 00:04:25.250 have some more questions for you about the book and some of the ideas in 61 00:04:25.290 --> 00:04:28.850 there as we get into the interview a little bit further. But one of 62 00:04:28.889 --> 00:04:33.290 the questions I like to ask guests on this series is how do you define 63 00:04:33.610 --> 00:04:39.360 categories and how do you define category creation, category design? Yeah, that's 64 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:42.879 it. That is a very big and very important question. First of all, 65 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:45.240 a category, even if you look it up in the dictionary, a 66 00:04:45.360 --> 00:04:48.000 category is a group. There is more than one company in it. So 67 00:04:48.279 --> 00:04:54.949 it is extraordinarily unusual for a single company to actually create a category. What 68 00:04:55.110 --> 00:04:59.709 often happens is a company comes up with something really interesting, they develop a 69 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:02.509 product, they push it forward as much as they possibly can, they run 70 00:05:02.509 --> 00:05:05.670 out of money and they die and then the second company, you know, 71 00:05:05.870 --> 00:05:10.220 improves a little bit on that and it's not till the third or fourth company 72 00:05:10.660 --> 00:05:14.939 that actually can actually say that they have built a category. So I've been 73 00:05:14.980 --> 00:05:19.339 involved in many category creations and they involve lots of companies and they involve lots 74 00:05:19.339 --> 00:05:23.129 of failure. And so if you're lucky enough to get the company that's the 75 00:05:23.250 --> 00:05:27.410 fourth or fifth or sixth in the in the line up with a new idea, 76 00:05:27.490 --> 00:05:30.649 then you you may have the category king, but you're very unlikely to 77 00:05:30.730 --> 00:05:34.720 build a categories. The first person going out doing it unlikely to be the 78 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:38.160 first. So you've been involved in this a few times. What are some 79 00:05:38.839 --> 00:05:42.920 what are some examples you like to bring up when that's happened, where the 80 00:05:43.040 --> 00:05:46.199 first, second, third kind of pioneers out there have kind of fallen by 81 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:48.759 the wayside and it's someone later on who's picked up the mantle. Well, 82 00:05:48.800 --> 00:05:53.230 no one remembers the ones that fell by the wayside. That's the thing about 83 00:05:53.230 --> 00:05:56.550 category building. But you can be sure that the ones that have won in 84 00:05:56.629 --> 00:05:59.310 any of these categories that you could talk about, they are not the first 85 00:05:59.350 --> 00:06:01.269 ones in there. So the ones I've been involved with, I was involved 86 00:06:01.310 --> 00:06:06.819 with the category creation of video games work, sorrysorry, was not the first 87 00:06:06.860 --> 00:06:12.180 company to create a video game back in the and they late s early s, 88 00:06:12.339 --> 00:06:15.339 but they they are the ones who established that category that I was involved 89 00:06:15.339 --> 00:06:19.569 in. The category creation of what was called back then desktop publishing, which 90 00:06:19.610 --> 00:06:24.329 is what apple and adobe, which actually was a company, called all of 91 00:06:24.410 --> 00:06:29.250 this. But Adobe acquired at I created this incredible new thing about how you 92 00:06:29.290 --> 00:06:33.319 could actually publish newsletters on your desktop. That was a category of many companies 93 00:06:33.360 --> 00:06:36.639 in many different industries created that category, but I was there at the beginning 94 00:06:36.680 --> 00:06:42.199 of that. I was involved in the category creation of very light jets, 95 00:06:42.399 --> 00:06:46.240 which is a really fun one innation space. I worked with a company called 96 00:06:46.279 --> 00:06:49.910 Eclipse Aviation, which invented the category and ten years later they died because they 97 00:06:49.949 --> 00:06:55.550 didn't have enough funding and Honda and a few other companies kind of just sat 98 00:06:55.629 --> 00:07:00.350 back and watched the failures that we were having an eclips and jumped in long 99 00:07:00.459 --> 00:07:04.420 after the failure of that company and they dominate the category today. The HANDA 100 00:07:04.420 --> 00:07:08.060 jet is one of the best very light jets out there. So anyw I've 101 00:07:08.060 --> 00:07:10.819 been involved in a lot of these things and seen them, seen them come 102 00:07:10.899 --> 00:07:14.420 and go. So category creation is a very big deal, very expensive. 103 00:07:14.579 --> 00:07:16.370 Can't be the first one in, but if you are the third of four 104 00:07:16.490 --> 00:07:19.889 U pet in, you can stand to make a ton of money by building 105 00:07:19.930 --> 00:07:24.569 that category. Sure. So what is it about being the first for the 106 00:07:24.610 --> 00:07:28.490 second do you think that leads to failure? Is it? Is it could 107 00:07:28.490 --> 00:07:30.639 trying to come to market before the market is really ready? Is it? 108 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:33.560 Is it lack of, you know, capital to just have the staying power 109 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:38.000 to wait for the market to come on board? Or maybe it's something else? 110 00:07:38.000 --> 00:07:41.959 I think it's vision before market is ready. It is the issue. 111 00:07:42.120 --> 00:07:44.629 So a lot of these companies have great visions. I mean if you think 112 00:07:44.670 --> 00:07:46.709 about the APP if you think about Apple, where I was I work with 113 00:07:46.790 --> 00:07:50.589 apple many years ago on the launch of the Macintosh. If Apple, it's 114 00:07:50.589 --> 00:07:56.230 the apple to headn't existed to fund the Development and failure of the Macintosh in 115 00:07:56.269 --> 00:08:00.139 the first few years, the Macintosh would not have happened. It would have 116 00:08:00.220 --> 00:08:03.540 died, just like all the all these other companies. So I think it's 117 00:08:03.579 --> 00:08:07.139 very it costs a lot of money, it takes a lot of time, 118 00:08:07.220 --> 00:08:09.420 it takes a lot of patients and it really helps if you've got some other 119 00:08:09.540 --> 00:08:15.170 product that can fund the development of a brand new idea. Visions are wonderful 120 00:08:15.170 --> 00:08:18.089 things, as they're all over silicon valley, but funding the vision and having 121 00:08:18.129 --> 00:08:22.050 the vision meet the market at the right time, in the in the right 122 00:08:22.170 --> 00:08:26.649 way is a very hit or miss operation. Sure, sure, and you 123 00:08:26.730 --> 00:08:30.279 know, a couple examples that come to mind for me as you're talking about 124 00:08:30.279 --> 00:08:33.519 that are, one, electric cars, which were, I think, invented 125 00:08:33.639 --> 00:08:37.840 maybe a hundred years ago. Yeah, yes, and then, of course, 126 00:08:37.279 --> 00:08:39.840 the one you hear about a lot, as well as social media, 127 00:08:41.039 --> 00:08:45.350 and with there're a couple predecessors in social media before even facebook, who we 128 00:08:45.470 --> 00:08:48.629 talked about plenty of times who have since fallen by the wayside. So yeah, 129 00:08:48.629 --> 00:08:52.190 that's it's a really interesting perspective because I haven't heard that highlighted. I 130 00:08:52.309 --> 00:08:58.059 think enough in some of the discussions I've had around category design. But everybody 131 00:08:58.139 --> 00:09:03.700 thinks it's very sexy and and successful to build a category. But what they 132 00:09:03.700 --> 00:09:07.500 don't realize is that building a category is different from starting a category. Right, 133 00:09:07.620 --> 00:09:11.330 creating a category, that creation of the category, is the thing that 134 00:09:11.529 --> 00:09:13.690 is a it's you. It's like putting a bullet to your head. If 135 00:09:13.690 --> 00:09:18.809 you're going to create a cant probably going to die. Right. I cannot 136 00:09:18.850 --> 00:09:22.610 think of a single company that successfully created the category from the very beginning and 137 00:09:24.090 --> 00:09:28.120 still dominates it even five, ten, twenty years later. So so sales 138 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:33.039 force with cloud based software. They weren't the first company to build cloud based 139 00:09:33.039 --> 00:09:35.759 software. Not. In fact, I worked with Hewlett Packard long before sales 140 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.950 force ever showed its face on the on the market, and they had a 141 00:09:39.269 --> 00:09:43.389 cloud based so I mean cloud stuff has been around for a long time. 142 00:09:43.549 --> 00:09:46.830 What they did is they popularized it and they made it cool and they gave 143 00:09:46.870 --> 00:09:50.870 it they had a wonderful logo that's in no software and they made everybody believe 144 00:09:50.909 --> 00:09:54.220 that that they were the category creators. But they were not. They built 145 00:09:54.259 --> 00:09:58.740 the category. They built their success on the shoulders of people who had failed 146 00:09:58.779 --> 00:10:01.139 before them. Sure, and that's how I can do it. That's how 147 00:10:01.179 --> 00:10:05.820 you build a category today. You find a great idea that's out there and 148 00:10:05.940 --> 00:10:09.289 then you put your your stuff on top of those shoulders and improve the heck 149 00:10:09.370 --> 00:10:13.409 out of it. And that's how you build when you learn from the people 150 00:10:13.409 --> 00:10:16.330 who made the mistakes before you. Yeah, is that how you describe the 151 00:10:16.370 --> 00:10:20.889 difference between category design and crack category creation? Then well, I'll say that. 152 00:10:20.090 --> 00:10:24.000 I say to Category Design and category creation. I probably the same sort 153 00:10:24.000 --> 00:10:28.000 of idea. The thing that I would say is different, as is building 154 00:10:28.039 --> 00:10:31.799 a category. Like you can see that you invented the first electric car right 155 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:35.399 if you're still alive today, but that doesn't mean that you built that category. 156 00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:37.230 It means you invented a new idea, that that was the very, 157 00:10:37.309 --> 00:10:41.509 very beginnings of a category that took a hundred years to actually come to fruition. 158 00:10:43.029 --> 00:10:46.950 Sure, I'm sure you know the the product market fit wasn't quite there 159 00:10:46.070 --> 00:10:50.620 a hundred years ago for electric cars it is today. Yeah, let's bring 160 00:10:50.779 --> 00:10:54.899 we talked about positioning at the beginning of our conversation. Let's bring that back 161 00:10:54.899 --> 00:10:58.659 into the next because you know they're very positioning in category creation. Or category 162 00:10:58.700 --> 00:11:01.500 design, whatever you want to call it, are related, but they're not 163 00:11:01.580 --> 00:11:05.889 exactly the same thing. So what can you teach us about how we should 164 00:11:05.889 --> 00:11:09.049 understand those terms and how they relate to each other? Sure, so, 165 00:11:09.289 --> 00:11:13.610 I think you need you need to understand the answer to what both of those 166 00:11:13.649 --> 00:11:16.210 are for yourself as a company. So you need to know what category you 167 00:11:16.330 --> 00:11:18.360 fit in and then you need to know how what is your position within that 168 00:11:18.519 --> 00:11:22.759 category. So to me, understanding your category is a very is a very 169 00:11:22.799 --> 00:11:26.080 strategic question, and that is where you have to decide. Are you going 170 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:31.960 to join an existing category, are you going to attempt the death knell of 171 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:35.029 creating a category, or are you can create what we call subcategories? That's 172 00:11:35.029 --> 00:11:39.350 actually a place where you can maybe make some make some headway if you're really 173 00:11:39.429 --> 00:11:43.590 feeling adventurous, and one of the one of my favorite examples of that, 174 00:11:43.990 --> 00:11:48.940 is the dodge minivan. So Dodge, you know automotive company, had a 175 00:11:48.019 --> 00:11:52.820 problem. They had too many chassis of a certain size and they basically were 176 00:11:52.820 --> 00:11:56.379 suffering from an inventory blood. Somebody inside the company, I don't know who 177 00:11:56.419 --> 00:12:00.460 it was, said, Hey, what if we don't put the sedan on 178 00:12:00.580 --> 00:12:03.289 top of that chest and put something else on top of it. Maybe we 179 00:12:03.409 --> 00:12:07.490 can sell it. Then and they put they scramble together a very raw what 180 00:12:07.690 --> 00:12:09.850 is today the minivan, and they put that on top of the chassis and 181 00:12:09.970 --> 00:12:13.970 it got got a little bit of traction. People really liked it. Then 182 00:12:13.970 --> 00:12:16.200 they started to improve it and make it better and v Walla, a few 183 00:12:16.200 --> 00:12:20.080 years later the minivan was born. But that that's a subcategory. It was 184 00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:24.360 brilliant. It was borne out of a problem, like many successful things are, 185 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:26.519 and the fact of the matter is it's still took years to build it, 186 00:12:26.759 --> 00:12:31.389 even and they couldn't have done it without without the funding behind, you 187 00:12:31.509 --> 00:12:35.350 know, the funding the dodge had with other successful vehicles, right, and 188 00:12:35.470 --> 00:12:39.429 they can. They kind of were forced to that situation, for better worse, 189 00:12:39.549 --> 00:12:43.590 with that that blood of immatory that you mentioned. How do you see 190 00:12:43.590 --> 00:12:48.860 subcategories playing out in, say, software? Well, I think, I 191 00:12:48.100 --> 00:12:52.620 think if you can find something that where there's a big improvement that is required 192 00:12:52.700 --> 00:12:56.940 in an existing situation, you know, I think you can build. You 193 00:12:56.019 --> 00:13:00.169 can build a subcategory. It's still it's not an easy thing to do, 194 00:13:00.370 --> 00:13:01.649 but I think it is. It is possible to do it. So if 195 00:13:01.690 --> 00:13:05.730 you take, say, Oh, you know like the whole adobe suite of 196 00:13:07.129 --> 00:13:09.529 mark getting products. Everybody it really loves adobe and we all love their product. 197 00:13:11.090 --> 00:13:13.720 But you know, they started with they started with the creative product. 198 00:13:13.879 --> 00:13:16.840 You know, I've forgot the name of it, but they were actually able 199 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:20.120 to establish a market with that. And then what they did is they actually 200 00:13:20.120 --> 00:13:26.360 started buying companies and they started doing their own development and creating subpieces of that 201 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:28.789 overall thing, until one day they said, wait a minute, what we 202 00:13:28.909 --> 00:13:31.669 really have up here is what we're going to call the creative cloud. So 203 00:13:31.789 --> 00:13:35.389 they actually created all these, I would say subcategories of the creative club, 204 00:13:35.470 --> 00:13:39.149 but they didn't name the creative cloud until much later and that's when they realized, 205 00:13:39.269 --> 00:13:43.419 Oh, we have a big category, it's not even a categories, 206 00:13:43.460 --> 00:13:46.220 a product line, and all of these little subcategories that we were trying to 207 00:13:46.259 --> 00:13:50.340 build actually fit underneath this creative cloud idea. So would it be safe to 208 00:13:50.379 --> 00:13:54.259 say then that if you've built something, whether it's an ecosystem of products or 209 00:13:54.539 --> 00:14:00.370 maybe just a point tool, and there's not really a great framework to describe 210 00:14:00.529 --> 00:14:05.450 what that thing is in the market, is that we're designing a subcategory comes 211 00:14:05.450 --> 00:14:07.529 into play? Yeah, I think that's actually a great way to look at 212 00:14:07.529 --> 00:14:11.399 it. Is is sometimes you've built something that that adds a twist or does 213 00:14:11.480 --> 00:14:16.360 something slightly different any end. That's why the question of what is the category 214 00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:18.519 you're in a really important one, because you need to understand if you are 215 00:14:18.600 --> 00:14:22.759 joining because the marketing is different. If you're joining an existing category, the 216 00:14:22.840 --> 00:14:26.629 marketing is different than if you're creating in a subcategory. So marketing the dodge 217 00:14:26.669 --> 00:14:31.830 minivan was a very different task than marketing another sedan that looked just like the 218 00:14:31.870 --> 00:14:35.350 other savan before it. That's much more of a commodity marketing to situation. 219 00:14:35.389 --> 00:14:39.899 Yeah, it's an important question to answer. And then positioning is okay, 220 00:14:39.940 --> 00:14:43.379 now that you understand what category you're in. What's your spot? You know 221 00:14:43.460 --> 00:14:46.539 what's where's your place in the sun in that in that category? How do 222 00:14:46.580 --> 00:14:48.980 you what's your differentiator? What is your role? What is your relevance? 223 00:14:50.100 --> 00:14:52.779 That's what that's to me, what the positioning is. It's the dot on 224 00:14:52.820 --> 00:14:56.850 the map inside that category. So they're not it's not an either or it's 225 00:14:56.889 --> 00:15:00.809 you've got to make these two different decisions. One is what category you're going 226 00:15:00.889 --> 00:15:03.090 to compete in. Is that? Yes, finding a niche within an existing 227 00:15:03.169 --> 00:15:07.159 category, or does it mean creating and designing a new category or subcategory? 228 00:15:07.639 --> 00:15:13.679 And then, given that, what's your what's the position then within category? 229 00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:16.919 Right, know what category and like, what are you? Are you? 230 00:15:16.159 --> 00:15:20.559 Are you cloud based software? Are you an electric vehicle? Are you a 231 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.909 video conferencing system? Yeah, tell me more about why. Why that's so 232 00:15:24.990 --> 00:15:28.470 important for people to understand in the in the buying process, because of how 233 00:15:28.549 --> 00:15:33.350 the mind works. The brain has a very hard time coming up understanding brand 234 00:15:33.429 --> 00:15:37.379 new things that don't fit into all the spaces. Your brain is kind of 235 00:15:37.460 --> 00:15:41.379 mapped out to understand things when you see them. When you see something you've 236 00:15:41.379 --> 00:15:43.179 never seen before, your brain doesn't know where to put it or what to 237 00:15:43.220 --> 00:15:46.139 do with it. So a lot of times what people do, most people 238 00:15:46.179 --> 00:15:48.940 when that, when they're confronted with that, is they push it out and 239 00:15:48.940 --> 00:15:52.850 they ignore it. And that's the last thing you want as a marketers borring 240 00:15:54.250 --> 00:15:56.570 your product or your service. So if you can put it into a place 241 00:15:56.690 --> 00:16:02.570 in the mind that people understand, then you you've created an affinity for it 242 00:16:03.090 --> 00:16:07.000 from the get go and that's much better than creating repulsion from the beginning. 243 00:16:07.360 --> 00:16:08.440 So you want it, you want to try to create an affinity, and 244 00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:12.639 you do that by by being something that they already recognize, and that is 245 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:17.519 why analogies work so well, and marketing. This is the umer of that, 246 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:21.669 this is the apple of that. It's because your mind works that way, 247 00:16:22.149 --> 00:16:25.830 because our world is so complex and there's so many things our brain has 248 00:16:25.870 --> 00:16:30.350 to contend with, we use categories as these rules of thumb for grouping things 249 00:16:30.389 --> 00:16:33.340 together and knowing what to expect. And, like you said, if you 250 00:16:33.379 --> 00:16:37.059 don't give buyers context for what that is, they're just confused and then, 251 00:16:37.659 --> 00:16:41.220 like, the worst thing that can happen is will push you away about so 252 00:16:41.500 --> 00:16:44.899 first you got to you got to create affiliation, and then once you create 253 00:16:44.899 --> 00:16:49.529 affiliation, then you can create differentiation. But if you create differentiation before filiation, 254 00:16:52.129 --> 00:16:55.490 you're kind of messed up. Sure, it's like different from what, 255 00:16:55.730 --> 00:16:57.929 if you're just saying you're different, but you don't give context for what you're 256 00:16:57.929 --> 00:17:03.920 differentiating yourselves from or how you're better, cheaper, faster, whatever those characteristics 257 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:07.200 are, then none of that really makes any sense. Right. There's me 258 00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:12.240 context for people understand why, why your product is better than the other ones 259 00:17:12.279 --> 00:17:15.470 out there. So, if you look at Elon Musk and the one there. 260 00:17:15.549 --> 00:17:21.869 He's one of my favorite examples of using his character and his vision as 261 00:17:21.910 --> 00:17:26.589 a differentiator. Right. So people there have been many electric car companies, 262 00:17:26.630 --> 00:17:29.349 that there will be many more electric car companies. He was definitely not the 263 00:17:29.430 --> 00:17:33.299 first, as we talked about a while ago, but people want to affiliate 264 00:17:33.539 --> 00:17:37.180 with him because he's showing them a path to a better future, not only 265 00:17:37.259 --> 00:17:41.220 with the electric cars but with SPACEX and the boring company. And then they're 266 00:17:41.220 --> 00:17:45.210 a logical thing he's got going. I mean he's people want to attach themselves 267 00:17:45.250 --> 00:17:49.529 to a visionary like him, and so he uses that to market Tesla and 268 00:17:49.930 --> 00:17:52.769 that's that's brilliant. And Steve did it too with Apple. He used his 269 00:17:52.849 --> 00:17:56.809 own personnel. Richard Branson uses it. If you have that kind of a 270 00:17:56.930 --> 00:18:00.240 personality and that asset going for you, you might as well, you know, 271 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.960 use it to help help market your company. Yeah, well, that's 272 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:07.720 probably a great segue into some of the principles. In your book you have 273 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:15.990 identified these three different DNA types that companies can use to help better understand their 274 00:18:15.029 --> 00:18:19.309 own positioning and their own messaging. So can you walk us through what those 275 00:18:19.349 --> 00:18:22.990 are? And then I know you've got some the six subtypes, two with 276 00:18:23.069 --> 00:18:26.990 their each. So you have to hear your take on that. We read 277 00:18:26.029 --> 00:18:30.819 the book. Thank you. That's yeah, yours. Thank you. So 278 00:18:32.900 --> 00:18:34.859 the thing is that companies are a lot like people. So if you sort 279 00:18:34.900 --> 00:18:38.460 of go into the whole marketing exercise understanding that, you're going to be a 280 00:18:38.500 --> 00:18:41.849 much better marketer. And the reason they're like people is because they serve people 281 00:18:41.849 --> 00:18:45.650 and they're made up of people and they make products for people. So so 282 00:18:45.210 --> 00:18:48.049 the first principle of all of this is that companies are a lot like people. 283 00:18:48.730 --> 00:18:52.250 So within that, I looked at a couple of hundred companies that I'd 284 00:18:52.289 --> 00:18:57.039 worked with in the past and I tried to categorize them into to see if 285 00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:00.319 there were patterns that were forming, and I spent quite a boit of time 286 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:04.119 doing this and I wound up with three piles on my desk, three piles 287 00:19:04.160 --> 00:19:07.440 of companies, and there was the companies that were very customer focused, a 288 00:19:07.559 --> 00:19:11.470 pile of companies that were very product focused, in a pile of companies of 289 00:19:11.549 --> 00:19:15.309 very concept focus. And then I tried to find other thing other places to 290 00:19:15.349 --> 00:19:18.109 put them, and I couldn't. I couldn't find a company that went into 291 00:19:18.150 --> 00:19:21.710 a new pile. So once I looked at those piles, I examined what 292 00:19:21.910 --> 00:19:26.299 exactly is the same of all these companies in, let's say in the customer 293 00:19:26.380 --> 00:19:30.339 focus pile. Well, they treat people differently, they hire people differently, 294 00:19:30.380 --> 00:19:33.900 they talk about different things and meetings, they structure themselves differently, they measure 295 00:19:33.940 --> 00:19:37.650 success differently, they do all these things differently. And then I looked at 296 00:19:37.690 --> 00:19:41.250 the things that they do and I tried to match it up with the product 297 00:19:41.289 --> 00:19:45.650 Focus Company and I realized, Oh, they structure themselves differently and higher different 298 00:19:45.690 --> 00:19:48.049 kinds of people and measure success differently. In the same is true with the 299 00:19:48.130 --> 00:19:52.529 concept company. So that was kind of the beginning of the idea that I 300 00:19:52.650 --> 00:19:55.039 have these three types of company. So then, of course, because I'm 301 00:19:55.039 --> 00:19:57.559 a marketer, and give them nicknames. So I call the mothers for the 302 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:03.359 customer focus companies, mechanics for the product focus companies and missionaries for the concept 303 00:20:03.440 --> 00:20:07.990 focus companies. But I took it one more step and I said, okay, 304 00:20:07.990 --> 00:20:11.069 let's say you are a mother company. Okay, how how could you 305 00:20:11.109 --> 00:20:15.109 position yourself once you understand what your DNA is? How can you position yourself 306 00:20:15.349 --> 00:20:18.630 with that knowledge well, I and again I tried to find more than two, 307 00:20:18.670 --> 00:20:19.869 but I can only find two in each of these in each of these 308 00:20:21.109 --> 00:20:23.740 categories. So if you're a mother focus company, you can only position your 309 00:20:23.980 --> 00:20:30.220 self around customer experience or customer segmentation. Now there's a million ways to position 310 00:20:30.220 --> 00:20:33.259 yourself within that, but you can only be around a segment like Nike does. 311 00:20:33.339 --> 00:20:37.210 Nike is a mother company that focuses on the segment of what they call 312 00:20:37.289 --> 00:20:41.529 the aspirational athlete, right, whereas Disney is a company that focuses on customer 313 00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:45.650 experience and they focus on the experience that their customers have with all of their 314 00:20:45.730 --> 00:20:51.200 products, especially there are their theme parts. If you're a product focus company 315 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:55.920 or a mechanic you focus on either features or value. Walmart is a very 316 00:20:55.920 --> 00:21:00.799 value oriented company. Brable and Microsoft for both very features oriented companies. And 317 00:21:00.920 --> 00:21:03.720 then the third kind, the concept companies, of the missionaries is I like 318 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:06.269 to call them, and I spend a lot of time working closely with Steve 319 00:21:06.309 --> 00:21:08.150 Jobs, so I feel like I have a great affinity for these kinds of 320 00:21:08.230 --> 00:21:14.430 companies. They position themselves either around cult of personality like Richard Branson or Elaw 321 00:21:14.470 --> 00:21:18.470 Musk right, or themselves around the next big thing. They're going to create 322 00:21:18.549 --> 00:21:21.099 the next big thing, and if you look at them very, very closely, 323 00:21:21.579 --> 00:21:23.579 you'll notice that the next big thing that they come up with is never 324 00:21:23.740 --> 00:21:26.940 the first time that that next big thing has shown up. Even if you 325 00:21:26.980 --> 00:21:30.900 look at the IPOD that that apple created, not the first time there was 326 00:21:30.980 --> 00:21:34.690 ever an ipod, right the remp three players before that. It's what it's 327 00:21:34.769 --> 00:21:37.250 someone like Steve a vision. I like Steve who can take all of the 328 00:21:37.410 --> 00:21:42.049 elements of something that is already out there and add to it, which is 329 00:21:42.089 --> 00:21:47.640 what he did with the Macintosh, and create something that feels new but really 330 00:21:47.799 --> 00:21:52.680 isn't all that new, and that's that's just brilliant, brilliant product mark could 331 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:56.640 fit stuff, I think so. Yet, like that example of MP three 332 00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.950 players and I pods is really interesting because I wonder what's would be going on 333 00:22:02.069 --> 00:22:04.109 in the minds of someone who had, you know, devented some of the 334 00:22:04.150 --> 00:22:07.549 predecessors to the IPID, these MP three players, and I don't know enough 335 00:22:07.549 --> 00:22:11.509 about what what brands those were with the product names, but no good. 336 00:22:11.829 --> 00:22:18.420 Everybody forgot them. So is it? Is it simply because those companies didn't 337 00:22:18.460 --> 00:22:22.180 have the right way position and kind of television for those products. Or is 338 00:22:22.220 --> 00:22:26.859 it something bigger than that? Well, I think they didn't understand how people 339 00:22:26.900 --> 00:22:30.089 were going to use them and that and that is as the biggest it was. 340 00:22:30.089 --> 00:22:33.289 I actually worked with one of those companies before the IPOD came out and 341 00:22:33.450 --> 00:22:37.329 I think the name of the company was sonnet or or something like that. 342 00:22:37.410 --> 00:22:40.170 I didn't even remember the name of the company because they died shortly thereafter. 343 00:22:40.569 --> 00:22:44.130 But most of those companies fought that. Their vision for the product was not 344 00:22:44.289 --> 00:22:48.279 so much around music, but it was really more around MP three players moved 345 00:22:48.319 --> 00:22:51.160 into the music. But even before the MP three players, they were talking 346 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.359 about more like what we would call a podcast today, right when she hadn't 347 00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:56.720 been invented at that point. But they saw them as a new way to 348 00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:00.509 have radio, right. So they envisioned people using it as a more like 349 00:23:00.589 --> 00:23:04.430 a radio where you're at the gym when you're going for a walk. And 350 00:23:04.509 --> 00:23:08.509 they didn't understand. They didn't understand the positioning right. So Steve comes up, 351 00:23:08.630 --> 00:23:12.819 he says here's a thousand songs in your pocket, like wow, that's 352 00:23:12.859 --> 00:23:17.099 what I want. I Want I want music. I don't want radio because 353 00:23:17.099 --> 00:23:19.380 I already have radio and I wanted in my pocket. And it's like the 354 00:23:19.420 --> 00:23:22.700 positioning was so brilliant. You know, it's just a thousand songs in your 355 00:23:22.740 --> 00:23:26.210 pocket. It's not all of this technology Mombo jumbo and all of this. 356 00:23:26.369 --> 00:23:30.369 So that's why, that's why his made it. But then he also reinvented 357 00:23:30.369 --> 00:23:33.250 the music industry in order to go with it. There was there was other 358 00:23:33.329 --> 00:23:37.529 things that had to happen to make that that a success. But but that 359 00:23:37.650 --> 00:23:41.559 was just brilliant positioning. So there was this category design aspect where he wasn't 360 00:23:41.559 --> 00:23:45.839 just building the product, he was building an ecosystem of things around the product 361 00:23:45.920 --> 00:23:48.960 to make good point. You. I have the ecosystems. Like he needed 362 00:23:49.039 --> 00:23:53.359 the music industry as well as his technology. Right, Elon Musk needs the 363 00:23:53.400 --> 00:23:56.509 whole supply chain, right, in addition to what he's building. You can't 364 00:23:56.549 --> 00:24:02.109 do it alone. So, but the ipod entered an existing category that at 365 00:24:02.150 --> 00:24:04.390 the time was called MP three players. But Steve didn't call her an YMP 366 00:24:04.589 --> 00:24:07.829 three player, right, that's not what he called it. He said I'm 367 00:24:07.829 --> 00:24:10.859 just going to call it an IPOD. Right. So everybody thinks he created 368 00:24:10.900 --> 00:24:14.299 that category, but he didn't create that category. Yeah, and those those 369 00:24:14.339 --> 00:24:18.380 names became kind of like household names for that product. Like my kids, 370 00:24:18.539 --> 00:24:22.980 they've got amid, like these Amazon kindles, like the kids version, but 371 00:24:22.460 --> 00:24:26.410 before that they had my old IPAD. So this's what we called it and 372 00:24:26.450 --> 00:24:29.289 that's what we still they refer to their too doles as I pads, even 373 00:24:29.329 --> 00:24:33.849 though it's not what they are. Yeah, yeah, so you've got these. 374 00:24:33.890 --> 00:24:38.839 There's these three DNA types, missionaries, mothers and mechanics. I want 375 00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:41.720 to ask you about how they relate to category in a moment, but can 376 00:24:41.720 --> 00:24:45.880 you just give me a few more examples of companies within each of those and, 377 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:48.599 especially since this is a BDB show, if you can think of any 378 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:52.319 examples, that would be really cool to hear. Sure. Well, like 379 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:55.670 I I'll start with the mechanics. So horrible and Microsoft are the two best 380 00:24:55.670 --> 00:24:57.230 examples that I can come up with. THEM BE TO BE COMPANIES. Well, 381 00:24:57.309 --> 00:25:00.509 Microsoft is also be to see, but they're largely be to be, 382 00:25:00.029 --> 00:25:03.509 and they are. They are so much product oriented companies. And by the 383 00:25:03.549 --> 00:25:07.299 way, when Bill Gates started that company he started as a product company, 384 00:25:07.339 --> 00:25:11.940 where he started as a East bought stuff in most most product focus companies, 385 00:25:11.980 --> 00:25:15.539 they have one product and then they buy everything else. And then both of 386 00:25:15.619 --> 00:25:18.859 those companies are are big in the MNA, in the M A space. 387 00:25:18.980 --> 00:25:22.930 So those are those are great companies like that. In the mother space, 388 00:25:22.049 --> 00:25:26.730 that's a little bit more challenging. But here's what's starting to happen Amazon. 389 00:25:26.210 --> 00:25:30.490 Amazon is moving itself from a product company. Actually first they started as a 390 00:25:30.490 --> 00:25:33.089 missionary company. Then they moved into product. This is sort of a normal 391 00:25:33.569 --> 00:25:37.359 path of operation and now they're doing is moving into being a mother company and 392 00:25:37.440 --> 00:25:44.160 they have started this process back several years ago when they bought Zappos, and 393 00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:48.519 they didn't buy Zappos because Jeff bezos couldn't figure out how to sell shoes online. 394 00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:52.430 They bought Zappos because they were trying to infiltrate the company with that customer 395 00:25:52.549 --> 00:25:56.710 Centricity, that customer focus that Zappos is so famous for and Tony Shave with 396 00:25:56.789 --> 00:26:00.349 his book delivering happiness, is so famous for. So that was the first 397 00:26:00.349 --> 00:26:04.140 step that they took in actually becoming a mother company and they've done many steps 398 00:26:04.180 --> 00:26:07.299 since then and the latest thing they've done, this is probably two years old 399 00:26:07.299 --> 00:26:11.740 now, is they actually published a new mission statement and they made a big 400 00:26:11.779 --> 00:26:15.299 deal about this new mission statement, and their new mission statement is to be 401 00:26:15.420 --> 00:26:18.529 Earth's most customer centric company. And so you can see that they've made this 402 00:26:18.890 --> 00:26:23.250 purposeful steering from where they were to a mother company. And that includes not 403 00:26:23.410 --> 00:26:26.809 only there be a c stuff, but also there be to be stuff with, 404 00:26:26.970 --> 00:26:29.410 you know, aws and all of that. Right, you have that 405 00:26:29.529 --> 00:26:33.160 statements. Not a mother oriented company, than I don't know what would be 406 00:26:33.720 --> 00:26:37.039 exactly exactly. And they made a big deal about making sure everybody knew that 407 00:26:37.119 --> 00:26:40.200 that was their new mission statement's all. It's on their website. It's very 408 00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:44.160 prominently placed. Most companies don't put their mission statement out there like Amazon has 409 00:26:44.240 --> 00:26:48.789 done recently with that. And in the missionary department. That's a that's sales 410 00:26:48.869 --> 00:26:52.430 forces, a missionary. Okay, Jeff Mark Any off total missionary, total 411 00:26:52.509 --> 00:26:56.869 be to be company. Took something that was a great that was struggling already 412 00:26:56.910 --> 00:27:02.299 the vote, sort of cloud software, of saying in the in the customer 413 00:27:02.380 --> 00:27:06.660 relationship management stuff, and he blew it up into this giant thing and became 414 00:27:06.700 --> 00:27:11.299 a missionary around. How can you build your sales force to be more successful? 415 00:27:11.380 --> 00:27:12.259 And you know, I mean I don't even know it to be to 416 00:27:12.299 --> 00:27:18.210 be company today that doesn't use sales for software. So sure for successful. 417 00:27:18.250 --> 00:27:22.730 Yeah, so those are three be tob situations in those in those categories, 418 00:27:22.930 --> 00:27:26.049 and that's one of the thing about these, these categories. Remember I said 419 00:27:26.170 --> 00:27:30.559 companies are a lot like people. Well, just like people, when you 420 00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:33.720 know what you're made of inside yourself, you can make something of it. 421 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:37.359 Right, we always tell our kids. Find what you're passionate about, find 422 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:41.119 what you're good at, and then you know they'll down on it. Don't 423 00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:45.390 find something that you aren't good at and try to double down on that, 424 00:27:45.509 --> 00:27:48.269 because that will never be authentic in the market. Same is true with companies. 425 00:27:48.349 --> 00:27:52.630 Find out what you are really good at and who you really are. 426 00:27:52.670 --> 00:27:55.910 Are you customer focused? Are Your product focus or are you concept focused? 427 00:27:55.950 --> 00:27:59.380 And then double down on that. And when you do that, you're marketing 428 00:27:59.500 --> 00:28:03.859 is much more authentic and it feels like it brings true like who would believe 429 00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:07.740 that comcast is a mother company? And who would? WHO believes there at 430 00:28:07.819 --> 00:28:11.579 campaign out there about all these great stories they have a customers who are having 431 00:28:11.579 --> 00:28:15.690 a great time with comcast. No one believes it because it isn't who they 432 00:28:15.690 --> 00:28:19.250 are. Right, right. Yeah, now, with a negative npscore you 433 00:28:19.329 --> 00:28:25.730 know, it's really something that you are uncovering, not so much choosing and 434 00:28:25.809 --> 00:28:30.200 then pursuing as a direction that's right and and it's if you're a startup company, 435 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:33.359 it's probably going to be the DNA that you you've brought to the table 436 00:28:33.400 --> 00:28:36.799 as the founder. It's probably how it starts, and usually that starts with 437 00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:41.400 a missionary kind of idea. Not Always. Sometimes somebody says, you know, 438 00:28:41.470 --> 00:28:45.029 boy, I have this great new product feature and I'm going to build 439 00:28:45.029 --> 00:28:47.829 the heck out of a company around it. And that and then that DNA 440 00:28:47.910 --> 00:28:51.269 kind of infiltrates the whole company. So usually it starts with the founder. 441 00:28:51.630 --> 00:28:55.710 But as companies grow and mature they can make purposeful shifts, like Amazon is 442 00:28:55.819 --> 00:28:59.660 doing, or it's happening to apple in the market right now apple is not 443 00:28:59.819 --> 00:29:03.859 purposefully making that shift. But when Steve Jobs died they lost their missionary right 444 00:29:04.380 --> 00:29:10.769 and unfortunately they were not able to find another missionary. I and Tim Cook, 445 00:29:10.809 --> 00:29:14.250 who I believe is probably the world's greatest steward of assets that he was 446 00:29:14.250 --> 00:29:18.130 left, has spent several years trying to replace the missionary and unable to do 447 00:29:18.210 --> 00:29:22.450 so. Meanwhile, the markets pushing them into being a product Focus Company and 448 00:29:22.650 --> 00:29:26.079 unfortunately, in my opinion, even though they're super high valued and I think 449 00:29:26.079 --> 00:29:30.880 they've done a fabulous job, they're a little behind the eight ball and recognizing 450 00:29:30.960 --> 00:29:33.599 that that's what they are today, that their product company today. There in 451 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:37.440 fact, I call them an essential luxury brand. You know, they're like 452 00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.349 Louis Baton, except you. Except you need your Louis Baton Right. You 453 00:29:41.509 --> 00:29:44.990 need your you need your if you're if you live your life on the on 454 00:29:45.109 --> 00:29:48.990 the Onios, you will pay the extra money for it and because you think 455 00:29:49.029 --> 00:29:52.460 it's a luxury but you need it. So an essential luxury is a really 456 00:29:52.500 --> 00:29:56.140 unusual position that they have in the market place today. But they got to 457 00:29:56.180 --> 00:30:00.700 make sure their products are workinging really well. Right, and a lot of 458 00:30:00.779 --> 00:30:03.140 the products save anounced recently. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't 459 00:30:03.140 --> 00:30:07.849 describe them as next big things like the apple credit card, you know, 460 00:30:08.170 --> 00:30:12.049 the next generation of are pods like. They're interesting products, are good products, 461 00:30:12.450 --> 00:30:17.250 but they're not like game changing categories we've never heard of before. They 462 00:30:17.329 --> 00:30:19.849 haven't had a next big thing since since Steve Died, since a long, 463 00:30:21.089 --> 00:30:25.039 long time, yeah, long, and they're not they're not going to but 464 00:30:25.160 --> 00:30:26.559 they're. What they're going to do is they're going to continue to evolve those 465 00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.480 products, they're going to become more of a services company, they're going to 466 00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:34.910 try to make themselves essential to your lifestyle, and that's but my big beef 467 00:30:36.029 --> 00:30:38.829 on apple these days actually is that back in the day they developed. They 468 00:30:40.309 --> 00:30:44.309 the reason that the Macintosh became successful after Steve went back to apple is because 469 00:30:44.349 --> 00:30:48.470 he recognized there was a tribe of people who were so dependent and in love 470 00:30:48.589 --> 00:30:52.099 and patient about the Macintosh and he tagged into that tribe and then grew that 471 00:30:52.299 --> 00:30:56.259 tribe. And it turns out that tribe or creative people. They were the 472 00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:59.779 people who think different right. That was his whole ad campaign. Well, 473 00:31:00.059 --> 00:31:03.539 he when he discovered that, which he didn't know when he sat apple the 474 00:31:03.619 --> 00:31:06.289 first time. He when he discovered that and double down on it. He 475 00:31:06.369 --> 00:31:08.490 was then able to grow the tribe. Today, you know what is it 476 00:31:08.569 --> 00:31:11.529 nine years after he died? Nope, they don't. Nobody knows who the 477 00:31:11.609 --> 00:31:15.369 apple tried to is anymore. No one has idea. You know, what 478 00:31:15.609 --> 00:31:18.519 is the Apple User? It's like we don't have a tribe anymore and and 479 00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:23.920 we need they need to define who their tribe is and and start communicating with 480 00:31:25.000 --> 00:31:27.319 their tribe, just like Steve did back when he came and did the think 481 00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:30.440 different campaign. Yeah, it sounds like a real challenge when you're, you 482 00:31:30.519 --> 00:31:33.990 know, one of the most valuable companies on earth and your tribe is, 483 00:31:33.309 --> 00:31:37.750 you know, a few billion people. Large exactly. It's a big challenge, 484 00:31:37.829 --> 00:31:38.950 but I think they're up to it. But I think they have to 485 00:31:38.990 --> 00:31:44.150 recognize that it is a challenge. Sure, sure, so back to your 486 00:31:44.349 --> 00:31:48.660 your DNA types. One of the points I remember highlighting when I read the 487 00:31:48.740 --> 00:31:53.019 book was this idea, this misperception almost, that in order to be a 488 00:31:53.140 --> 00:31:59.140 category creator you have to be a missionary. But I don't think you believe 489 00:31:59.140 --> 00:32:01.250 that's the case. Correct, I don't. I think you can. You 490 00:32:01.329 --> 00:32:05.730 can build a category. Again, I prefer to use the build rather than 491 00:32:05.809 --> 00:32:08.170 create, because I think the creators die. I think the builders thrive, 492 00:32:08.809 --> 00:32:14.009 but I think build a category as a mother or mechanical or missionary, and 493 00:32:14.170 --> 00:32:16.559 many of many of them have. Actually, if you look at Nordstrom, 494 00:32:16.680 --> 00:32:21.200 is a great, I think, a great example. I don't know people 495 00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:23.720 outside of the West Coast know what nords from is, but it's a retail 496 00:32:24.319 --> 00:32:29.319 store out here for clothing and shoes and men's and women's and children's and it 497 00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:32.549 is. It is known for its incredible customer service, much like Zappos. 498 00:32:32.670 --> 00:32:37.470 They're known for their customer service in that regard and they they basically created that. 499 00:32:37.549 --> 00:32:42.150 That's what they created. That was their subcategory, was super high end 500 00:32:42.230 --> 00:32:45.980 service for retail. No one else had done that before Nordstrom did. So 501 00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:51.180 they created a subcategory within the retail store, within the department store category, 502 00:32:51.539 --> 00:32:54.460 and it really took off and they still own that position today. So sure. 503 00:32:54.619 --> 00:32:58.890 So, if you have this idea that you're you want to build a 504 00:32:59.210 --> 00:33:01.130 category, you want to build a sad category. It at least some of 505 00:33:01.170 --> 00:33:05.490 the startup founders that I've talked to you, when I've actually shared this framework 506 00:33:05.490 --> 00:33:07.130 with a few of them, and a lot of times I hear, well, 507 00:33:07.369 --> 00:33:10.650 we want to be missionaries, and it's like it's for some reason I 508 00:33:10.890 --> 00:33:15.359 think that like comes across as more appealing, like it sounds more adventurous or 509 00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:17.359 interesting, but you're saying like you can be a mother, you can be 510 00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:21.279 in the cannon, you can be product focused, you can be customer experience 511 00:33:21.400 --> 00:33:24.279 focused or focus on a market niche and design any category. It's just with 512 00:33:24.359 --> 00:33:28.630 a different Lens than you might if you're doing the next big thing. Yeah, 513 00:33:28.670 --> 00:33:32.029 I think everybody who doesn't want to be like Steve Jobs or how rigihoals 514 00:33:32.069 --> 00:33:36.069 or Elon Musk or Richard Brandson? Of course, I mean we look up 515 00:33:36.109 --> 00:33:37.910 to these people. They are the heroes of our time, right, so 516 00:33:38.029 --> 00:33:42.299 of course we all want to be like them. But when you really just 517 00:33:42.460 --> 00:33:45.940 liked I, you can't, your viewers can't see me, but I'm five 518 00:33:45.980 --> 00:33:50.940 foot three and I'm stocky and I do not at all look like a ballerina. 519 00:33:51.140 --> 00:33:53.099 So when I was a child I took a lot of ballet and I 520 00:33:53.180 --> 00:33:57.170 wanted to be a ballerina. But if I look at my DNA, I 521 00:33:57.329 --> 00:34:00.809 say to myself at some point when I was like sixteen, this ain't going 522 00:34:00.849 --> 00:34:04.369 to happen. You're not going to be an all area. So it's like 523 00:34:04.450 --> 00:34:07.369 you have to look at who you actually are in order to make something of 524 00:34:07.449 --> 00:34:12.079 it. And so even though everybody wants to be a missionary, you know 525 00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:15.679 you can't pretend you're a missionary if you're not. And and it's like I 526 00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:19.719 couldn't pretend I was a Bellerina if I really wasn't. So it's really important 527 00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:22.519 to understand and who you are. And there's a lot of companies in all 528 00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:27.829 three of those categories that have built their built ginormous industries, right, but 529 00:34:27.949 --> 00:34:30.789 not around the idea of being a missionary. So if you happen to be 530 00:34:30.230 --> 00:34:35.190 Steve Jobs or Elon Must Kate, more power to probably will do lots of 531 00:34:35.230 --> 00:34:38.820 great things. Yeah, yeah, so would you consider like Larry Ellison or 532 00:34:38.860 --> 00:34:44.699 Bill Gates, even though they have high profiles? Would you consider them missionaries? 533 00:34:45.460 --> 00:34:49.420 No, I would not, and I know both of them and people 534 00:34:49.699 --> 00:34:53.210 brilliantly, but not missionaries. Okay, cool. So we talked about category, 535 00:34:53.210 --> 00:34:58.130 we talked about positioning. I want to talk a little bit about braining 536 00:34:58.530 --> 00:35:01.769 because I remember you have a little bit of a bone to pick and I 537 00:35:02.050 --> 00:35:07.639 have the same kind of bone to pick about doing braining in isolation, especially 538 00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:12.800 before positioning. So tell me more about that. Why it's so important to 539 00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:16.400 do braining at the right time with the right context. Yeah, it comes 540 00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:21.829 from a philosophy that I have again about companies being like people. We all 541 00:35:21.909 --> 00:35:24.590 do better in life if we think about something before we act. Right we 542 00:35:24.869 --> 00:35:30.030 the rational side of us, is a smarter side and we do. We 543 00:35:30.150 --> 00:35:32.429 do better things if we think about something before we act on it and then 544 00:35:32.510 --> 00:35:37.219 we attach the emotion later. So the same as true with companies. If 545 00:35:37.260 --> 00:35:39.420 you I look at positioning as the rational side of a company and I look 546 00:35:39.420 --> 00:35:43.380 at branding is the emotional side, and you got to have both of them 547 00:35:43.420 --> 00:35:45.420 because just like in a human we need a rational side and we need an 548 00:35:45.500 --> 00:35:49.940 emotional side, we need a heart and we need a head. Right, 549 00:35:50.329 --> 00:35:53.849 but when you're a company it's so much easier to lead with the with the 550 00:35:53.929 --> 00:35:58.849 emotion, with the heart, because it's sexy, it's colorful, it's a 551 00:35:58.969 --> 00:36:01.090 great thing for a new CMO to do when they come into a company because 552 00:36:01.130 --> 00:36:06.360 it creates a lot of you know, a lot of action and colors and 553 00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:09.079 you know, storyboards and all this sexy stuff. It looks like stuff is 554 00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:13.119 happening right, but what happens is you spend a bunch of money on that 555 00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:15.480 and it's all around the emotional side of it. It's all about the tagline, 556 00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:20.429 at the colors and the logo and the you know, the bushy stuff, 557 00:36:20.429 --> 00:36:22.070 as I like to call the heart stuff, and then it goes out 558 00:36:22.110 --> 00:36:25.510 there and then you realize, like sometimes, as little as a week later. 559 00:36:25.670 --> 00:36:30.190 Holy Kid, that's not at all who we are, right. That's 560 00:36:30.269 --> 00:36:34.619 that's my dream of the sexy Andy, not my dream of the real anti 561 00:36:34.860 --> 00:36:37.780 right. So if you actually come out there and figure out who you are 562 00:36:38.099 --> 00:36:44.139 first and position yourself rationally, then do the emotional stuff, then you're basing 563 00:36:44.179 --> 00:36:49.010 all of that emotions on on something that's actually real and it works so much 564 00:36:49.050 --> 00:36:52.010 better. And I can there's millions of companies that have gone through this exercise 565 00:36:52.210 --> 00:36:57.650 only to destroy it later. There's a company called flex. You Know Flextronic? 566 00:36:57.730 --> 00:37:00.329 He used to be called flextronics. Now it's called flex. No, 567 00:37:00.489 --> 00:37:05.599 it's absolutely here. It's a B Tob many contract manufacturing company. Gigantic, 568 00:37:05.760 --> 00:37:08.719 gigantic outre valley. They went through them, but they hired a new CMO 569 00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:14.360 about four or five years ago. He came in, he rebranded the entire 570 00:37:14.440 --> 00:37:16.909 company. He changed the name. He went from flextronics to flex. They 571 00:37:16.989 --> 00:37:22.590 change the entire advertising and positioning and tagline and everything came up with the new 572 00:37:22.630 --> 00:37:24.829 tagline was called from sketch to scale. It was super creative. I know 573 00:37:24.949 --> 00:37:29.030 the creative team who did it was one and eighty five design they were they 574 00:37:29.070 --> 00:37:34.219 were brilliant. They launched this campaign and literally a year later they killed everything 575 00:37:34.820 --> 00:37:37.579 because none of it, none of it was reflective of who the company actually 576 00:37:37.619 --> 00:37:42.179 was. And here's how they discovered that. Right they they looked at they 577 00:37:42.219 --> 00:37:44.929 had this notion of sketch to scale. You know, so we will help 578 00:37:44.969 --> 00:37:46.329 you at the very small end of what it is you're building. It's a 579 00:37:46.369 --> 00:37:50.130 tiny little software APP all the way I up to if you're building another apple 580 00:37:50.210 --> 00:37:52.329 computer, will do all of it. They looked at their revenue and where 581 00:37:52.329 --> 00:37:55.809 it was coming from and see Eurow was coming from the sketch part of it. 582 00:37:57.050 --> 00:38:00.000 So the whole promise of from sketch to scale was false because they didn't 583 00:38:00.039 --> 00:38:05.480 do any of the sketch stuff. So they basically fired the CEO, they 584 00:38:05.559 --> 00:38:08.800 fired the CEMO and they brought in a new a new team and they killed 585 00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:12.760 all of that. And it was it, I don't know, a couple 586 00:38:12.840 --> 00:38:15.949 million dollars at least in creative work that was done on that, on that 587 00:38:16.110 --> 00:38:19.949 product, and it was brilliant creative work. That's the thing about it. 588 00:38:19.989 --> 00:38:22.429 Was Brilliant. It just didn't match with the company. It wasn't authentic to 589 00:38:22.510 --> 00:38:27.260 who the company was. Sure and that that work on the creative or the 590 00:38:27.300 --> 00:38:30.539 cost of the creative work, probably pales in comparison to the opportunity costs of 591 00:38:30.699 --> 00:38:36.059 confusing the market and making pet m sure of what you're really about exactly. 592 00:38:36.340 --> 00:38:38.780 I knew the people who did it. They're brilliant people. That was super 593 00:38:38.860 --> 00:38:44.210 creative work. If the company could have changed itself to become that, that 594 00:38:44.329 --> 00:38:46.690 would have been great, but the people that were doing this work didn't didn't 595 00:38:46.730 --> 00:38:50.730 have the power to actually change the company from the ground up. They were 596 00:38:50.769 --> 00:38:54.050 just changing the marketing. Sure they were putting the Bellerina costume on top of 597 00:38:54.170 --> 00:38:59.639 the five foot three person. Yeah, well, yeah, that's right. 598 00:38:59.719 --> 00:39:01.519 Like, if you think about it in terms of maybe like a job interview, 599 00:39:01.559 --> 00:39:04.880 you know you'll have to pick out, of course, something to wear 600 00:39:04.920 --> 00:39:07.800 to your job interview, but depending on what kind of position you're applying for 601 00:39:07.960 --> 00:39:10.110 and what kind of impression you want to create, you might pick something that 602 00:39:10.190 --> 00:39:14.710 looks really interesting and is finding creative, but it might create the totally wrong 603 00:39:14.750 --> 00:39:19.349 impression or it might not reflect the kind of personality that you're comfortable with and 604 00:39:19.389 --> 00:39:22.630 then you're going to feel awkward wearing these clothes and it's going to going to 605 00:39:22.630 --> 00:39:24.539 come across. People will see right through it. And it sounds like that's 606 00:39:24.539 --> 00:39:29.659 exactly what can happen to a company when they put on this new kind of 607 00:39:29.820 --> 00:39:34.619 persona or visual identity or and about how they want to look. But if 608 00:39:34.619 --> 00:39:38.050 it's not something they're trying to achieve or reflective of are who they already are, 609 00:39:38.610 --> 00:39:42.570 then it's not going to last. That's exactly right. So so you 610 00:39:42.650 --> 00:39:45.730 are so much better off if you just figure out who you are first and 611 00:39:45.809 --> 00:39:51.969 then create a position around that and then do all that sexy fun branding stuff 612 00:39:51.969 --> 00:39:54.719 that aligns with that position. You're going to be way better off and you'll 613 00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:58.440 be ahead of the game instead of instead of behind the eight ball, which 614 00:39:58.480 --> 00:40:00.679 is what happens to all of these companies. But that said, positioning is 615 00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:06.440 a heart. It's a rigorous, hardcore examination of who you are. It 616 00:40:06.599 --> 00:40:09.269 ain't easy, right and it's not it's not that much fun. The fun 617 00:40:09.389 --> 00:40:13.989 part is all the sixty stuff. So people, you know, when you're 618 00:40:13.989 --> 00:40:16.070 a new CMO and you're coming into a company, you want people to notice 619 00:40:16.110 --> 00:40:19.469 you. You want to make a difference, you want to see you want 620 00:40:19.469 --> 00:40:22.980 to see visible change. None of that happens with positioning, because it's like, 621 00:40:23.579 --> 00:40:27.420 Oh, this is my DNA and this is my category and all these 622 00:40:27.500 --> 00:40:30.260 questions that are so hard to answer, and nobody, nobody, who goes 623 00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:32.659 home at the end of the day and goes, oh my gosh, I'm 624 00:40:32.739 --> 00:40:36.369 in the ex category. You know, they just, you know, if 625 00:40:36.409 --> 00:40:38.449 they don't talk about it at home with their spouse and their family. They 626 00:40:38.489 --> 00:40:42.969 talked about the new tagline, they came up with the new ad campaign. 627 00:40:43.289 --> 00:40:46.289 Yeah, so it's you know, emotional things are so much more attractive to 628 00:40:46.409 --> 00:40:51.559 people, but if they're not based in reality, there either, they fizzle 629 00:40:51.639 --> 00:40:54.320 into the ether very easily. So what do you tell a company who is 630 00:40:54.920 --> 00:40:59.880 you can see from the outside that they haven't thought through their positioning. Maybe 631 00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:04.349 it's not even on their radar for whatever reason, and they're getting hung up 632 00:41:04.389 --> 00:41:07.429 on this the braining side of things or the outward facing things. What do 633 00:41:07.469 --> 00:41:10.510 you say to them to kind of change their way of thinking and really get 634 00:41:10.550 --> 00:41:15.150 them focused on doing the right things? First, what happens to me and 635 00:41:15.230 --> 00:41:19.300 the way I get brought into companies as they've already hired those branding companies and 636 00:41:19.420 --> 00:41:23.260 then it's not it's not creating any traction. So so I come in after 637 00:41:23.260 --> 00:41:28.219 they've already spent the several million dollars or however much money at costs, and 638 00:41:28.340 --> 00:41:30.219 I say, well, this is what happened to you, right, you 639 00:41:30.500 --> 00:41:35.809 got seduced by your own language, and that's understandable. But now that we 640 00:41:35.929 --> 00:41:37.849 have to do is we have to look at who you actually are and see 641 00:41:37.929 --> 00:41:43.329 what of that branding stuff that you've done can we actually you know, can 642 00:41:43.409 --> 00:41:45.289 we use some of it, or or do we need to toss all of 643 00:41:45.329 --> 00:41:49.239 it if it's not based in reality? So I don't usually get a chance 644 00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:53.519 to see them before they've already made their mistake. So that's one of the 645 00:41:53.559 --> 00:41:57.880 reasons I wrote the book is I really want people to think about this before 646 00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:02.230 they take action, because it's it saves time and money and and market leadership. 647 00:42:02.389 --> 00:42:06.429 Right. It's like you can't go out there and pretend you're something and 648 00:42:06.590 --> 00:42:09.389 try to build a leadership position on it, then have people discovered that it's 649 00:42:09.389 --> 00:42:13.230 not true and then you have to fall the fall from grace and start all 650 00:42:13.269 --> 00:42:17.460 over again. Right, right. What's your advice for an earlier stage company 651 00:42:17.500 --> 00:42:23.619 who doesn't have millions to spend on raining, positioning, consulting any of that 652 00:42:23.699 --> 00:42:27.860 they're just trying to get started and get the right foundation in place. How 653 00:42:27.900 --> 00:42:30.969 should they think through positioning? What's like? Should they try to still try 654 00:42:31.010 --> 00:42:35.730 to bring in someone from the outside because you have that unique, more objective 655 00:42:35.889 --> 00:42:37.530 perspective? Should they try to do it themselves? What have you seen? 656 00:42:38.090 --> 00:42:43.769 Well, I think for startup companies, branding is a less is less important, 657 00:42:43.809 --> 00:42:45.920 right, because really you just have to identify who you are and why 658 00:42:45.960 --> 00:42:49.840 you matter. Right. That's the most important thing for a startup company and 659 00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:52.920 then later you can add the pretty stuff that goes with it. But but 660 00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:57.840 I would advise startup companies to to either, if they really don't have any 661 00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:00.349 money, to just read the book and follow the follow the methodology, because 662 00:43:00.349 --> 00:43:04.070 that will give you a lot of information. It helps to have an outside 663 00:43:04.070 --> 00:43:07.710 person who's been through that a bunch like I have, where I can actually 664 00:43:07.710 --> 00:43:10.190 help companies, you know, connect to the dots, because really what you're 665 00:43:10.190 --> 00:43:14.260 doing with my methodologies you're creating a bunch of new dots, right, and 666 00:43:14.340 --> 00:43:16.500 then you have to then you have to connect them into into a logical, 667 00:43:17.139 --> 00:43:21.539 logical conclusion. But you know, it doesn't cost much money to do that, 668 00:43:21.739 --> 00:43:23.900 right. You just follow that methodology. But really, if you can 669 00:43:23.940 --> 00:43:28.449 answer the question for yourself as a company, who are you and why do 670 00:43:28.530 --> 00:43:31.329 you matter, you've got you've got the answer right. So whatever methodology you 671 00:43:31.449 --> 00:43:35.409 used to get through there, whether it's my book or somebody else's, those 672 00:43:35.409 --> 00:43:37.769 are the two questions you have to answer. Who are you as a company 673 00:43:37.849 --> 00:43:39.690 and why do you matter? And if you can answer those two questions you 674 00:43:39.769 --> 00:43:45.320 understand what your position is and then you can do the fun taglines and color 675 00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:47.840 pellettes and logos and all that cool stuff. Yeah, because that's going to 676 00:43:49.039 --> 00:43:53.880 in reinforce who you are and why you matter through and other means. Any 677 00:43:54.000 --> 00:43:58.909 good designer will tell you we want the logo of the company should reflect the 678 00:43:58.949 --> 00:44:04.110 company. That's kind of the the idea form should follow a function. That's 679 00:44:04.110 --> 00:44:07.510 a that's a big design promise. But so many people don't understand that. 680 00:44:07.710 --> 00:44:14.460 They just they're so seduced by the fun and the glitz of creation, of 681 00:44:14.579 --> 00:44:21.059 creativity. But positioning is not a creative act. Positioning is a rigorous thought 682 00:44:21.460 --> 00:44:25.170 process that involves research and and understanding of what's going on in the market. 683 00:44:25.170 --> 00:44:30.050 It's not as exciting, it's kind of boring. It's hard work. You 684 00:44:30.170 --> 00:44:32.170 know, it's like, I understand what your personality is like. Are you 685 00:44:32.329 --> 00:44:37.250 and IANTJ? If you if you look at the Myers breaksing or EANTP or 686 00:44:37.289 --> 00:44:40.159 whatever the heck it is, you might be like examining that with yourself. 687 00:44:40.360 --> 00:44:45.800 Takes some hard work. Yeah, you mentioned doing a lot of work to 688 00:44:45.039 --> 00:44:49.280 research the market. Do you the work you've done? Do you tend to 689 00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:54.070 do a lot of first party research? Do you rely on other information you 690 00:44:54.150 --> 00:44:58.550 find? You use like surveys, interviews? What's your process look like? 691 00:44:58.710 --> 00:45:01.429 Grant will use all of that. So you know, we what we're trying 692 00:45:01.469 --> 00:45:06.389 to look at is the is, the is the landscape that a company is 693 00:45:06.670 --> 00:45:08.820 putting itself in. So that landscape has a number of things in it, 694 00:45:08.940 --> 00:45:13.659 right, and those are the six lenses that I talked about. The landscape 695 00:45:13.699 --> 00:45:15.619 that you're putting yourself in as a company. It includes, you know, 696 00:45:15.739 --> 00:45:20.860 the community that you're serving, which includes your customers as well as their influencers. 697 00:45:20.940 --> 00:45:23.929 It includes the category that you're in. It includes the context in which 698 00:45:23.929 --> 00:45:27.889 you are doing this, like doing something today is very different from doing it 699 00:45:28.010 --> 00:45:32.010 twenty years ago. The competition is another critical piece of it. Your DNA, 700 00:45:32.210 --> 00:45:36.559 the core DNA, is another piece of it. And then the sixth, 701 00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:38.840 the six Lens that we look at is is how would you define a 702 00:45:38.880 --> 00:45:44.039 successful positioning statement? You know, we call that criteria. So we want 703 00:45:44.039 --> 00:45:46.719 you to figure out what your criteria is for a great position statement before you 704 00:45:46.760 --> 00:45:50.829 actually write it, so you don't get seduced by some sex and tagline. 705 00:45:51.150 --> 00:45:55.110 So anyway, we look at the landscape that you're launching into and we use 706 00:45:55.230 --> 00:46:00.230 that in our favor. Right there they are contextual waves that you can ride. 707 00:46:00.750 --> 00:46:02.230 So you want to figure out how to ride one. Like if you're 708 00:46:02.309 --> 00:46:07.300 software company today, you wouldn't and you're not in the cloud, you're not 709 00:46:07.340 --> 00:46:10.139 going to get any traction with anyone. Right. That's the contextual wave that 710 00:46:10.219 --> 00:46:13.980 we are in right now. It's all about cloud delivery, so you have 711 00:46:14.059 --> 00:46:15.860 to be a cloud company. So it's stuff like that that we look at 712 00:46:16.099 --> 00:46:22.449 and help companies figure out how to position themselves within each of these lenses so 713 00:46:22.610 --> 00:46:28.170 that they can stand out, because your brain notices what's different within a context 714 00:46:28.329 --> 00:46:34.039 of a category. So so really thinking through just what's like you said, 715 00:46:34.079 --> 00:46:37.559 the context of the market that you're trying to serve. How do you define 716 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:39.599 the company internally? What's it made of? A then how do you how 717 00:46:39.599 --> 00:46:44.079 do those two relate to each other? That's that all feeds into your positioning 718 00:46:44.199 --> 00:46:47.429 and all the work that extends after that. Yeah, exactly. So you 719 00:46:47.510 --> 00:46:52.230 know, we've tried to figure out where are you the same? That's the 720 00:46:52.309 --> 00:46:54.349 category. Where are you the same as everyone else? And once we understand 721 00:46:54.349 --> 00:46:59.070 where you're just saying, then how can you look of you stand out within 722 00:46:59.190 --> 00:47:01.500 that that see of Sameness, as people like to call it? Sure, 723 00:47:01.500 --> 00:47:05.659 sure, all right. Any we are almost out of time, but I 724 00:47:06.300 --> 00:47:09.179 want to ask you if you have any other advice you want to leave marketers 725 00:47:09.260 --> 00:47:15.420 or executives, anyone thinking about messaging and positioning, any other advice you want 726 00:47:15.420 --> 00:47:19.210 to leave with them today? Sure, I just two things. One is 727 00:47:19.610 --> 00:47:22.329 alignment is critical. So everyone in the company has to be aligned on what 728 00:47:22.449 --> 00:47:27.050 the messaging is, because you don't want one person saying one thing and another 729 00:47:27.090 --> 00:47:30.199 person saying something else and by the person saying something else. So alignment is 730 00:47:30.360 --> 00:47:32.599 critical. And then positioning is critical. Right, you need you need to 731 00:47:32.760 --> 00:47:36.679 own a position, because if you don't own it, somebody else will. 732 00:47:37.199 --> 00:47:40.519 So the idea is create alignment among your executive team and on the messaging and 733 00:47:40.639 --> 00:47:44.349 then own, own a position, and with those two things you can go 734 00:47:44.429 --> 00:47:46.630 a long, long way. You don't need a lot of money, all 735 00:47:46.670 --> 00:47:51.150 right. So create alignment, own a position, getting get advice. To 736 00:47:51.190 --> 00:47:54.230 end with what's the best way for one of our listeners to get in touch 737 00:47:54.230 --> 00:47:59.579 with you? We have a website. It's called get to Aha. We 738 00:47:59.659 --> 00:48:02.780 have two websites, cutting him collectivecom and get to a hacom. I have 739 00:48:02.860 --> 00:48:07.739 a book that I'd love for you to for people on your listenership to to 740 00:48:08.099 --> 00:48:13.050 check out and buy, because now I'm in the bookselling business for Bible. 741 00:48:13.090 --> 00:48:15.690 I Amazon. It's called get to a Huh, and that's probably I'm a 742 00:48:15.809 --> 00:48:20.769 social be down on Linkedin. I'm also on twitter, so I'm Andy Cunningham 743 00:48:20.889 --> 00:48:24.250 for a twittercom. Any kind of hymn for all right, more of us, 744 00:48:25.809 --> 00:48:29.119 a good deal, all right, well, any thank you so much 745 00:48:29.119 --> 00:48:30.880 for being with me today. I learned a time from you. Really appreciate 746 00:48:30.920 --> 00:48:34.039 you being on the show. Well, thank you, John, was a 747 00:48:34.079 --> 00:48:38.480 real pleasure. Thank you, take care. Thanks by bye. Okay. 748 00:48:38.639 --> 00:48:43.670 Well, that reps up this episode of the Category Creation Series. I hope 749 00:48:43.670 --> 00:48:46.389 you enjoyed it and I hope that this episode helped you in some small way 750 00:48:46.630 --> 00:48:50.230 to become a better marketer. Now, if you want to get in touch 751 00:48:50.269 --> 00:48:53.789 with me, you can just head to John Dot Marketing in your browser or, 752 00:48:53.909 --> 00:48:58.219 of course, you can find me on Linkedin. Thanks for listening. 753 00:48:58.380 --> 00:49:05.420 I'll see you next time. I hate it when podcasts incessantly ask their listeners 754 00:49:05.500 --> 00:49:08.179 for reviews, but I get why they do it, because reviews are enormously 755 00:49:08.219 --> 00:49:12.650 helpful when you're trying to grow a podcast audience. So here's what we decided 756 00:49:12.690 --> 00:49:15.409 to do. If you leave a review for me to be growth and apple 757 00:49:15.489 --> 00:49:20.449 podcasts and email me a screenshot of the review to James At sweetfish Mediacom, 758 00:49:20.769 --> 00:49:23.090 I'll send you a signed copy of my new book, content based networking, 759 00:49:23.360 --> 00:49:27.760 how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. We get a review, 760 00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:29.920 you get a free book. We both win.