Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hey, this is James, the
founder of sweet fish media. If you've
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listened to beb growth for a while, you probably have an idea of what
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we're passionate about. Loving people really
well, a constant pursuit of learning and
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inspiring people to own their careers.
With all the craziness happening with this virus,
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we are incredibly fortunate to be in
the business of podcasting. So many
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BB brands are looking for alternatives to
their inperson events that are being canceled,
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and our business is growing as a
result. Please don't miss hear me on
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this, because I'm not saying this
to Brag. It is heartbreaking the economic
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impact this is having on so many
businesses. But being in the business of
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podcasting, the demand for what we
do has increased and because of that we're
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looking to hire really talented people to
help us serve that demand. So if
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you like what we're all about,
it street fish, and you're looking for
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a great career opportunity, hit us
up. There's a link in the show
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notes where you can apply today.
I'm really looking forward to meeting you.
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Hi there, welcome to the BDB
growth show. This is John Rougie and
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I host our category creation series here. I'm also the VP of marketing strategy
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at bomb bomb, where we help
you make more human connections with the people
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you do business with through personal one
to one videos. All right, so
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I have a question for you.
What do you do if you are already
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the leader of a category but you
found that you've outgrown it? Well,
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that's exactly the situation that Gong found
itself in. After having dominated the conversation
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intelligence space, they realized that that
category was just too limiting. So that's
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why Udi Littergore, the CMO of
Gong, decided to go after a new
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category that he is calling revenue intelligence. Now I have been dying to ask
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duty about this, which is why
he is the guest on today's episode.
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So if you've ever wanted an inside
look at what happens in the company that
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chooses to build a new category when
they already lead an existing one, this
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episode is for you. Booty,
thanks for the being on the show today.
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Thanks for having a John Pleasure to
be here. All right. Well,
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I know a lot of our listeners
will have heard of you. You
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know, the Gong team is pretty
prolific on on Linkedin and some other channels
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and I know you just recently spoken
hypergrowth, but for someone who doesn't know
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about you or no much about Gong
just, can you give me a brief
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bio of yourself? Sure, so
myself, and then maybe gone, which
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is more interesting? I myself am
a five time byb marketing. I've had
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the pleasure serving at companies, both
private and public, and different sectors and
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different countries, currently at gone for
the last three years, having a blast.
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Started in the Gong team in Israel
three years ago and a little over
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a year ago I relocated to be
with the rest of my growing team here
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in San Francisco, where our entire
go to market team is great, great,
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because stuff just real quick. What's
I'm not real familiar with the tech
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scene in Israel. How does that
compare to to San Francisco? I think
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outside of the US Israel actually has
the second largest text scene. So it's
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surprising. I heard a stat that
I don't know if it's still accurate,
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that on NASDAC, after US and
Canadian companies, Israel has the most companies
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listed on Nazac, the most tech
companies. So Israel has a pretty,
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pretty huge Texti really no, I
would not have guessed that it had was
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like right behind the US and Canada. It does. Yeah, yeah,
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crazy, good deal. All right, so I'm the last few guests I've
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started to ask the same question to
kind of kick off our episode, and
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so I want to ask you the
same question to see how your answer compares.
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It's a simple question, but answer
might be long. It's how do
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you define category creation? How do
you define category design? Oh Wow,
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kind of prepped me on this one, John. How do I defind category
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design? I think category designer creation
is the result of a process led by
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a company, after which the market, including customers, employees, investors and
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analysts, will have agreed that a
new product category was created that did not
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exist before the company initiated its effort. It sounds maybe a little mechanical,
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but I think we'll all know what
when we see it. So you company
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like gang insight can definitely credit itself
for creating the customer success category. That
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there was no category before that.
The term was hardly used and they definitely
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took it to the next level.
Look a look at companies like drift,
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who coined conversational marketing. That did
not exist before that. You could argue
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still an early stage of that category. But it's definitely a term that's widely
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accepted now and being used, if
if only describe that one company, but
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that's that's a start. Sure.
So the way you see it, it's
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it's not just a company talking about
itself in a unique way, but that's
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more about the market. Or you
can a third parties recognizing and identify that
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category as a thing that did not
exist prior to that company coming about it
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bringing it to light. Here's here's
a tweet this moment for you. I
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think that that claiming that you've created
a categories kind of like claiming that you're
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a lady. If you have to
say so, you're probably aren't. Right.
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Okay, so if you're the only
one saying that you build a category,
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you haven't built a category. Yeah, okay, yeah, okay.
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So don't worry so much about trying
to make that claim for yourself. I
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mean, go about it if you
think that's the right move, but don't
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claim your category creator. Lets someone
else. You're going to be the only
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one initially. You're going to be
the only one talking about it, because
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that's how it works. Because you're
creating something, you need to explain it
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to the world. But if,
after a decent amount of time, there's
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going to be two, three years, sometimes ten years. But if the
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rest of the world hasn't caught up
and agrees that this is a category,
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and I would even add to my
previous definite antion that if other companies have
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not attached themselves to this category,
you don't have a category. You just
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have a product with the weird description
that no one really gets. You need
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other companies to want to attach themselves
to that category. You want customers to
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have a budget light line item for
that category, you want investors investing in
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competing companies in that category. Then
you know you've got a category. Yeah,
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I like that idea of looking for
a budget line item for the category
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because that means they're looking for is
a solution within that space trap. That
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is the Holy Grill, that is
the holy grail. If you look at
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categories that didn't exist fifteen years ago. Let's take marketing email automation. Fifteen
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years ago no one had a budget
for that, or a few had.
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Today every single marketer, on his
first day, has a budget light item
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for marketing email automation and they know
that the vendors in that space are going
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to compete for that budget line item, but they don't have to create the
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budget light one that that is the
holy grail of category building. You need
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a budget line item. So the
argument is, which tool am I choosing?
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And for that you need competition.
Like I said, I know very
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few products that are one product in
the category that have a budget line item,
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even something as broad as crm.
Everyone, every sales organization, every
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company, has a budget line item
for C rm, but there's several vendors
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to choose from. Everyone has a
any company who has marketing has email marketing
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as a budget line item, but
you have several options toose from. That
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that's a really good sign that you
build a category. Sure, and some
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of the spaces it's you or even
hundreds of choices to choose from. Course.
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Yeah, so let's talk about going
on a previous episode we interviewed Chris
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Orland, who at the time was
think director of Product Marketing, and we
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talked about conversation intelligence. And even
then there was a few months ago,
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but that felt like it was still
kind of early stages. Way We certainly
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wasn't ten years in, but he
mentioned a moment ago and recently you guys
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have shifted to revenue intelligence. So
share some more background on that with me.
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Sure, happy to so. So
gone launched just over three years ago
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our first Beta product, and at
that point we followed conventional wisdom, which
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was avoid category creation at all costs. It's one of the most extensive,
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Far Fetched Marketing Exercises at company can
do, especially in early stages, and
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so we did the the smart thing
to do, which was to look for
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a category that we could latch onto, that has already gotten some market traction,
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that there were players in the space, there were investors who knew what
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it was, or customers who knew
what it was. There or analysts to
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knew what it was, and that
space was conversation intelligence. There were a
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couple of very early stage company with
little traction, but it was it was
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a thing, and so we define
ourself in that category of conversation intelligence and
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we quickly became the leader of that
category. As many would argue, if
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you look at the reviews sites like
Gtwo or Captera, Gong is clearly the
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distant number one in both satisfaction score
and number of reviews on each of those
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platforms. But that wasn't enough.
For us and then we what do you
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mean when you say it wasn't enough, like there wasn't enough attention your demand
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for conversation intelligence? I'll explain.
It's a great question. So when I
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say that wasn't enough, this is
what I mean. The category was definitely
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getting and is getting a lot of
attention in recent years. I mean to
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look at Google trends and the number
of mentions on social media on conversation diligence.
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It's a real thing now. And
then we did with might be a
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hindsight, a suicide mission, and
we decided we want to break away from
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that everything we've managed to build and
define ourselves the last four years and we
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want to create a new category.
And why didn't we do that? Because,
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as our business evolved, we started, like most businesses, selling to
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small and medium sized businesses, otherwise
known as SMB companies, later on shifting
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also into mid market, while keeping
a really strong sort of pulled on the
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SMB market. And earlier this year
we started going much more heavily into enterprise
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and strategic accounts. I'm talking about
companies like Linkedin and ADP and paypal and
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many others. I wish I had
permission to name their names, but there
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are our very impressive client roster.
And what we found that when we go
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to those enterprise and strategic accounts and
we're trying to get to the chief revenue
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officer, the Cro who is our
ideal buyer at this stage, and and
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that has to do with what we
said earlier about of a budget line item.
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So let me explain. If I'm
trying to sell marketing automation to a
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CMO, I know they have a
budget line item. I can go talk
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to a marketing ops person because I
know she's probably responsible for picking the actual
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marketing automation system and she has a
budget for it. She doesn't have to
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go fight for it and if she
did, she probably lose that battle and
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I'd have to get the CMO involved
to go fight for a budget. Now
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conversation intelligence is in that situation when
there is no budget line item yet.
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Okay, now here's the thing.
If we go to a CRO which is
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our typical buyer who can get a
budget, and they hear the words conversation
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intelligence, what we found that happens
quite often is it sounds to them like
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a tactical tool. Conversation Diligence.
I would something to do with our conversations.
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Go Talk to my sales enablement person
or go talk to my sales offs
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person, and many times that is
where deals go to die, because when
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we talk to that sales enablement ourselves
as a person, they're like, well,
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this is pretty interesting, but I
have no power to get budget for
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this. So we're stuck in that
loop where the Cro thinks that this is
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something too tactical for her to talk
about, but when we get to the
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tactical person like sales enablement, they
don't have any budgeting power to get that
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done. And so to break out
of that vicious cycle, we have the
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thought that is showing initial promise in
the last like six weeks since we roll
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this out, but ask me again
in three or six months or in twelve
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months, I'll tell you how we're
doing. We have the thought that if
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we renamed it to a category that
the CRO would care about and would not
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as easily bump us down to sales
enablement, we could say at power talking
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to that Cro who would both get
the need for our product and also have
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the power to fight for budget.
That was one of the sort of defining
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moments when we're like, okay,
what would the CRO care about? Right?
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If Cro wants us to bring in
strategic training for sales people like Sandler,
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that happens at the CRO level.
That's a that's a high ticket item
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and and it has sort of strategic
importance. He wouldn't bump that down to
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sales enablement. To decide who we
need to bring in Sandler for half a
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million dollars this year. That's a
crow decision. So we're like, what
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could we do to make purchasing product
like going a CRO decision? And after
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a quite a lengthy process that I
won't worry with all its details, we
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came to the conclusion that by renaming
it as revenue intelligence, and this is
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way more than a naming exercise,
we redefined the entire pitch around what is
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revenue intelligence, what our product vision
is and how it helps see ours and
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senior sales leaders. We completely redefine
that message to cater to the interest of
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senior sales leaders in enterprise. And
I've got to say that since we've rolled
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this out, obviously we had a
short Beta period before we did the official
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roll out about six weeks ago,
it's been really resonating with senior sales.
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You know what, when when marketing
teams and management teams sit around a board
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room making up these names, you
always got to wander like, won't this
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sound weird? Does it even sound
like a thing? Does it sound entirely
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made up? Will it's sick?
And you know, all these category names
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initially sound made up because they didn't
exist five minutes ago. But it's actually
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working. It's actually working so far. Again, this is very early stages,
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so tons of disclaimers and asterisks on
that, but it is sticking like
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with no one's rateds raced the brow
asking revenue what, or what does that
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even mean? As soon as we
get through the thirty two explanation, like
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really makes sense to people and we're
seeing that Cros are having these conversations with
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us, the piece of sales are
having these conversations with us and they get
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it. So that that is sort
of the background why we made the change.
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All Right, so let me play
it back to you to make sure
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I got it correctly. So with
conversation intelligence, there was some demand.
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It was it's an existing category and
you found that when you're selling to been
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marketed in, especially enterprise accounts.
You really trying to sell to the Crero
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the term conversation station intelligence? It
would get pushed down to a sales opsor
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of sales enabledment person. But then, even though this is an existing category,
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it's not at the budget in line
item stage yet, and so to
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make a to make a sale,
that had to be the kind of come
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out of new budgets. So it
would go back to the crow but,
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like you said, it would kind
of bump back down to the sales enabledment
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person because conversation intelligence implies something more
tactical, less strategic. Exactly in the
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Cero would really pay attention for exactly. And so we again, I'm oversimplifying
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to fit the scope of our discussion
today, but but it's way beyond the
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category name. Sure we thought about
the strategic story. Why would the CRO
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care and and why don't they care
enough about conversation intelligence? And we found
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that conversation intelligence really has a pretty
narrow scope of improving people's skills at the
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sort of sales call level. So
this is something that a frontline sales manager
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who has six people, six account
executives, reporting to her, she would
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care about because this helps her culture. People it's still a super important product,
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but our offering is so much broader
than that and our vision and future
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product road map is is way more
than that pillar of value that we call
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today people success, because it's about
improving people skills. We'd added to equally
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important pillars. One of them is
deal success, where we help entire sales
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teams win more deals by showing them
unprecedented visibility into their deals pineline and helping
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their manager really understand what should be
in the pipeline, what's real and what's
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not. And we added a third
pillar called strategy success. That helps the
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very senior sales leaders, like the
VP of sales or the CRO roll out
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strategic sales motions. Like, let's
say you've invested a million dollars in Sandler.
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How do you know that it's working
well? Now you can use Gong
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certain measure your organization before and after
and show Roy and and and said the
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the continuous plan with with those trainers. You can see which of your reps
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are using the new product messaging you're
rolling out or who is offering those three
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year deals and que for like they
asked for. So all of these things
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are much broader vision than simply sales
coaching, which is what all of the
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other sort of legacy conversation intelligence vendors
are working on. If you go to
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their websites, all they're talking about
is sales coaching. That's all they're doing.
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And our vision as already become so
much broader and a lot of that
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is already embedded in the product that
we said. Okay, we have a
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story that we think is much broader
that if we keep calling a conversation intelligence,
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people won't get it because it sounds
them like this little niche thing that
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just helps sales reps with her with
their call coaching shirts. We change the
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name to go with that much broader
store. Sure. So there's two things
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there that I think. A really
interesting one is that you started with understanding
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your audience. First. That was
the impetus for this change. It wasn't
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because somebody got tired of conversation intelligence
or because someone new came in and they
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wanted to kind of shake things up. You really started with a need.
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It was based on looking at the
people you're trying to work with. And
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then secondly, you you talked about
how revenue intelligence isn't just a clever way
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of talking about the same thing,
or better way of talking about the same
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thing. It really reflects a product
strategy as well. We talked about those
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three pillars you've added that kind of
extend beyond conversation intelligence and that's really what
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category design is all about. It's
not just the marketing piece, and although
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that's a an important part of it, but has to reflect the product crowd
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map and division of the company absolutely, and it goes as far as our
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internal organizational structure has changed as a
result of this repositioning. I can explain.
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So when we decided that this new
story consists of three pillars of people
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success, deal success and strategy success, we've mirrored that structure in our product
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management and in our product marketing team. So we have a product market whose
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responsibility is deal success. We have
a product manager whose responsibility is people success.
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We've taken that to the deepest level
that we can. So our entire
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organization is building and selling and supporting
a product to go and align with that
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strategic message and story that we're telling. So he said earlier that it's not
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just a marketing exercise and that's entirely
true. This has to start from the
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highest form of leadership, the CEO, the entire C suite. If you
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go ask our people officer, our
finance officer, they will tell the same
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story that I'm telling because it's so
deeply embedded in the company and how we've
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structured the company and how we're building
the product and how we're selling it and
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how we're supporting it. Sure so
we're. Did that lightbulb go off then
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that conversation? Intelligence wasn't the thing, was it was that you was it
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so might outside of marketing. To
Recall, I think it initially came up
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in discussions where when we, you
know, our sales and marketing teams are
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deeply aligned, its topic I get
asked about a lot and and that allows
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us to move quickly because I see
marketing as part of the Greater Revenue Organization
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and its purposes to supply sales with
the top line pipeline that they need to
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hit the company target. And you
can't do that unless you're very, very
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deeply aligned and every week you're understanding
what they're struggling with, what's working,
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what's not working, and then we
iterate and we change things. So when
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we started hearing that, as we're
going up market, to enterprise. Our
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strs and our as were being bumped
down to sales, enablement and sales,
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all of them. We learned this
from the Revenue Organization. I think then
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the light bar, the light bulb, started going out as an on and
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saying, okay, maybe it's something
to do with our messaging, because we
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really believe there our product brings value
to the senior leadership. We really believe
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that if they only fought that fight
to get the budget, they would see
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so much value. And we have
customers who are saying that as well.
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It's not just our own thinking.
So it must be something to do with
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our messaging. And then we started
playing round with messaging and then we took
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a few folks and we gave them
the the sort of data version of our
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messaging and we of course, use
going to record all these calls and analyze
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and see what's working what's not working. And after we did like twenty of
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those with a new narrative, like
we think we're onto something, and then
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we made it official and then we
rolled it out an entire team. And
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so we iterate and test our messaging
just like marketers do this on websites and
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emails. We use. Going to
do this for our sales team as well.
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Sure what kind of people or books
to resources have kind of influenced how
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you approached messaging? Good question.
So for messaging that we mentioned, to
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know three, three books that I've
read or reread recently that have really influenced
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how we're doing things. So the
two very fundamental ones that are classics.
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One of them is Jeffrey Moore's crossing
the Chasm, which is, you know,
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the the Bible of, I think, category creation and just breaking into
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a market. We were fortunate to
have Jeffrey come to our conference last month,
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celebrate here in San Francisco and be
one of our speakers and it was
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a great success as as we expected. So I've recently re read his book
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just to sort of update myself on
some of the strategies that we want to
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make sure that we're implementing as his
theory suggests. So anyone starting to think
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about just even entering a new market
or creating your own category, you want
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to read that book. So that's
Jeffrey Moore's crossing the chasm. Once you
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get into the marketing tactics of how
to actually do that, I always go
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back to Robert C Aldini's influence.
Influence talks about the six pillars of human
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persuasion and those are just the Bible
of any marketer. If you ask me
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like I won't talk or hire a
marketer around and Watten that book everything we
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do. I mean it was written
in the s and it didn't take off
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initially and a few years later a
lot of these ideas caught on and then
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it caught on like wildfire. He's
been reprinted God knows how many times.
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And you know what, shielding he
wrote in the S, way before the
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Internet and social media. We use
those exact same principles today to make a
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post go viral on linkedin or to
makeup video become a huge success on Youtube.
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And he wrote these global principles of
human persuasion years before we even had
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this new media at our fingertips,
and it's mensely useful. And finally,
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the third book I recommend is is
a book called New Power. I think
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that is the name of it.
New Power, power. It's about creating
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movements. So new power is a
book that talks about movements in the last
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few years, not necessarily having to
do with product at all. So they
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talked about movements like the Hashtag me
to movement and they talk about the rise
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of Isis in Syria and how they're
recruiting college students from Scotland and how they're
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messaging the recruitment messaging how they're pushing
people to Action. And by reading about
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these different movements from different walks of
life, they start making generalizations about what
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creates a message that would trigger people
to take action. And that is so
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useful when you're taking that and thinking, how can I apply that to a
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movement in my business or in my
category? How can I get people talking
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about Revenue Intelligence? And I'm not
ashamed to say that we're picking up tips
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from the me to movement and from
the Isis Movement, only in not in
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an evil way, of course,
about what triggers people to act and what
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makes the message of people who want
to act on and repeat. And so
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I think sometimes looking outside of your
immediate neighborhood and other companies gives you the
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best ideas, because sometimes your competitors
are just not that inspiring or you're the
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biggest and the leader that everyone's looking
at, so you don't really have who
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to learn from your immediate space.
Of just looking at other spaces. It
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could be other product spaces, they
could be entirely other spaces, like social
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movements. Looking at that and see
what's appealing there. Why are people following?
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Yeah, yeah, it's so.
It's interesting how much inspiration can come
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out of resources that are outside of
marketing or outside of business and, like
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you said, if you can easily
get caught up in an echo chamber and
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just doing variations and what other people
have done, but not really doing something
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original exactly. You know what fascinates
medios? I hear you talk, you
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use the word we over and over
again. We do this, we do
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that, which is I don't think
I even heard you say like I did
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this, you know, even once. And the reason I bring that up
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is because this change that you you
went through from shifting from conversation intelligence to
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reveny intelligence. Based on what you've
told me so far, this is affected
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multiple areas of your of your company, and I'm really fascinated here from you
351
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what process and what advice you have
for going through this cultural change, because
352
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this is a big deal right.
It's not like a change of the headline
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on your website. It's a mental
change. So how do you go about
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affecting such a large change like that
and get getting everyone so excited about it?
355
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It's a great question and I really
think you nailed it as far as
356
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that being a key to succeeding in
a movement like this, and I'm not
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even talking about it external success,
let the internal messaging, communications and success.
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You cannot move a mountain like this
without the entire force of a company
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being behind it and pushing you.
You can be a brilliant CMO or VP
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marketing, you cannot push this mountain
yourself, and the way to do that
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is to get very early buy in
from the entire executive team. In my
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case, I'm very fortunate to be
working for a CEO who is actually a
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CMO for most of his career before
becoming a CEO. So He's a marketer
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at heart and he gets he gets
it and you know, we started this
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whole category creation discussion just him and
me, and I went and built a
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draft plan of what we want to
do. I got his input on it
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and then I presented that to the
broader sea suite and I shared with them
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what I heard from them. That
triggered the the need for possibly creating a
369
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new category and of course I got
a lot of head nods because this feedback
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originally came from sales and str and
customer success when some of their customers didn't
371
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get what we're doing at the strategic
level. So they had to agree with
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that part which I started with because
it came from them. And then I
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moved on to what my recommended action
plan is at very high level of what
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I didn't even have a name for
the category that point. I was just
375
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talking about the need for category creation
and what's US will look like and I
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based that on some of the theory
and examples of other categories that we looked
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at in other industries, and they
were very excited. After that, I
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hired a person on my team,
China Bedonni. She's a great addition to
379
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our teams. Joins us a few
months ago and her unofficial title is category
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creation. That's all she's working on. And then she embarked on this journey
381
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and she went through the process and
she educated herself from other category crazer creators
382
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and other industries and she walked our
management team through this process of defining the
383
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category and finally naming the category.
And then we built our first customer or
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industry conference around that and we built
a she built our CEOS keynote around that
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new messaging and category creation. Then
we launched that and was a huge success
386
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and we had the CEO get up
in front of the entire company at our
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last all hands before he sort of
unveiled this to the world and he explained
388
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to them the narrative that we wrote
together on why we need this change,
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what it's going to look like,
how it's going to work, and he
390
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rallied everyone around that. And right
after that our product marketing teams, together
391
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with she now rolled out new sales
decks. They updated that every single page
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of the website. So there's no
more conversation intelligence. It's all that revenue
393
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intelligence and that entire story. So
this is a really wide initiative that you
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have to work constantly on. The
in term of communications. Is Not one
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of those things the marketing can spring
on the company one morning, say Tella,
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because nobody will buy into it.
You have to work. I think
397
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most of the world we spend,
or at least half of it, of
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all the effort we put into category
creation was in the internal sinking and buying
399
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to make sure that everyone from the
CEO to the C suite to the entire
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company is completely behind us. And
now if you go into any random Gong
401
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employees linkedin page, you'll probably find
that they've put revenue intelligence in their title.
402
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They've changed their banner image on their
linkedin profile to something around revenue intelligence,
403
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and not because we forced them to, because I got them sided about.
404
00:28:23.250 --> 00:28:27.319
Sure, sure, that's it's so
interesting that you hired someone with this
405
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unofficial role of moving category creation forward. Where did you get that idea?
406
00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:38.599
So she know, is interviewing for
a different role on my team and we
407
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all found her extremely impressive. But
she had a few white spaces in the
408
00:28:45.190 --> 00:28:49.470
experience that we were looking for that
specific role. And this was right at
409
00:28:49.470 --> 00:28:53.309
the time that we were starting to
discuss category creation and when I presented my
410
00:28:53.390 --> 00:28:56.819
high level plan. It seemed like
a good idea but also seemed like a
411
00:28:56.900 --> 00:29:00.180
ton of work. And we're thinking
pate, who is going to leave this?
412
00:29:00.259 --> 00:29:03.900
If we don't have a clear owner
for this initiative, for pulling us
413
00:29:03.940 --> 00:29:07.779
through this mud and getting to the
other side, it's just not going to
414
00:29:08.180 --> 00:29:12.609
not get get off the ground because
we were all very, very busy even
415
00:29:12.730 --> 00:29:17.890
before we started this initiative and then, and then, as I was talking
416
00:29:18.130 --> 00:29:21.049
with my CEO, and this was
right at the time that we rage of
417
00:29:21.049 --> 00:29:23.599
the machine and some other candidates for
the other role, I meet my CEO
418
00:29:23.720 --> 00:29:27.079
said, why don't we hire Sheena
for this? Let's have her lead this
419
00:29:27.119 --> 00:29:30.640
category building and I'm wow, that
could be a great idea. It took
420
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:36.119
some selling on my part because I'd
essentially invented a role which is almost as
421
00:29:36.160 --> 00:29:38.710
hard as in ending a category and
and she had come to interview for another
422
00:29:38.750 --> 00:29:42.150
role. She was a VP marketing
at that time and another company, and
423
00:29:42.269 --> 00:29:45.069
so if she wanted to make sure
she's got a senior role, and and
424
00:29:45.150 --> 00:29:49.910
I love what she said when we
interviewed her and and I essentially came up
425
00:29:49.910 --> 00:29:52.019
to her like the third interview I
said Look, she you know we all
426
00:29:52.099 --> 00:29:55.660
love you, but we think we
have a better role for you than the
427
00:29:55.700 --> 00:30:00.539
one. He actually came to Intervie
and she said her first criteria and deciding
428
00:30:00.579 --> 00:30:03.980
whether to take that role or not
was she said, I want to do
429
00:30:03.099 --> 00:30:07.289
something that I know is important to
the CEO of the company. I will
430
00:30:07.289 --> 00:30:11.690
not work on something that is not
important to the CEO. And I thought
431
00:30:11.730 --> 00:30:15.890
that was a great sign that she
gets what it takes to succeed and if
432
00:30:15.089 --> 00:30:18.730
the CEO is not completely bought into
what she's working on, then the CEO
433
00:30:18.809 --> 00:30:25.880
won't care and she'll have a part
time promoting her ideas and initiatives and succeeding
434
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:29.039
in what we brought her to do. So I got her to meet with
435
00:30:29.079 --> 00:30:33.279
the CEO again and she was unsured
that he indeed is very, very caring
436
00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:36.549
about what she's going to be working
on. She did some further due diligence
437
00:30:36.630 --> 00:30:40.109
and then she very fortunately, she
took the role and she's been spear hitting
438
00:30:40.150 --> 00:30:41.950
that for the last few months.
She's now, you know, as part
439
00:30:41.990 --> 00:30:45.670
of that role, leading all of
our press relations, for leading all of
440
00:30:45.710 --> 00:30:52.460
our analysts briefings with industry analysts like
Gardner and forester and others. So that's
441
00:30:52.660 --> 00:30:56.579
quickly become a real, very real
roles. Or official titles is senior director
442
00:30:56.619 --> 00:30:59.420
of marketing, because she need to
put something on Linkedin the people would get
443
00:31:00.180 --> 00:31:03.059
but her really number one focus is
category creation. All right, sounds like
444
00:31:03.099 --> 00:31:07.089
someone we need to have on the
show. Son. Oh Yeah, she's
445
00:31:07.089 --> 00:31:08.490
a great figure. You'd be lucky
to have her. Yeah, great,
446
00:31:08.609 --> 00:31:12.369
he has our own podcast called reveal, the revenue intelligence podcast. You should
447
00:31:12.410 --> 00:31:17.329
right into that perfect a few weeks
ago. All right, great. So,
448
00:31:17.569 --> 00:31:21.279
speaking of roles, do you recently
were promoted from VP marketing to CMO,
449
00:31:21.960 --> 00:31:26.240
and I'm not sure how that lined
up with the shift from conversation to
450
00:31:26.640 --> 00:31:30.680
Revenue Intelligence, but I'm curious to
hear your thoughts on how the VP marketing
451
00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:36.430
role kind of plays into category creation
versus a CMO role. Great questions.
452
00:31:36.509 --> 00:31:40.109
So yes, as I said,
I've already been a VP marketing at five
453
00:31:40.150 --> 00:31:44.670
different companies, the most recent one
here gone. There isn't always a huge
454
00:31:44.750 --> 00:31:48.460
difference between a HEP marketing and a
CMO roll. I think some companies sort
455
00:31:48.500 --> 00:31:52.259
of overuse CMO when they like a
two person company and they have a Cmo
456
00:31:52.099 --> 00:31:56.140
who's never really done that before,
because they think it look good for investors
457
00:31:56.180 --> 00:32:00.220
or something. But at Gong,
especially with my CEO, I meet he's
458
00:32:00.299 --> 00:32:04.529
very careful about titles and this is
the third time I've work with him,
459
00:32:04.609 --> 00:32:07.609
the second time I've reported to him
and and this is the first time he's
460
00:32:08.529 --> 00:32:14.009
promoted me to to CMO. So
he doesn't take that lightly. I think
461
00:32:14.009 --> 00:32:17.519
there were a few things that triggered
that promotion specifically at Gong, which which
462
00:32:19.039 --> 00:32:22.640
could also make sense for other companies. One of them is that the role
463
00:32:22.799 --> 00:32:25.720
had indeed broadened and grown. So
in the first couple of years I was
464
00:32:25.880 --> 00:32:30.190
mainly focused on demand generation, which
is what the company needed. We need
465
00:32:30.269 --> 00:32:32.869
more leads, we need qualified opportunities
so we have customers to sell to.
466
00:32:34.630 --> 00:32:39.029
Once my team had created that machine, it was time to focus on on
467
00:32:39.150 --> 00:32:42.789
many other things. So the big
one that they were focusing on now is
468
00:32:42.829 --> 00:32:47.740
category creation. My team also handles
employer branding and product marketing and our brand
469
00:32:47.819 --> 00:32:52.420
building and so many other things which
are a lot more strategic and not just
470
00:32:52.660 --> 00:32:55.900
focus on the day today, demangine, but what are we doing to build
471
00:32:57.259 --> 00:32:59.970
our companies brand for the next two
and three years, not just for this
472
00:33:00.049 --> 00:33:04.650
quarter, and so I think that's
one moment where you sort of can sit
473
00:33:04.730 --> 00:33:07.769
back and say, okay, the
marketing is now and the leader of the
474
00:33:07.849 --> 00:33:10.809
marketing team is now something much more
strategic and broad than just creating leads for
475
00:33:10.970 --> 00:33:15.119
meeting this quarters pipeline, and I
think that that's a good time to start
476
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:17.119
thinking of okay, we need a
Cmo in that position. is at the
477
00:33:17.200 --> 00:33:21.599
current person needing marketing or do we
need to bring someone from the outside who's
478
00:33:21.640 --> 00:33:23.880
done this before? So that that
is sort of one consideration. I think
479
00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:29.950
the the other consideration is looking at
the marketing team's hiring plans. I'm very
480
00:33:30.069 --> 00:33:35.990
fortunate to have several xdps on my
team and many senior directors, and we
481
00:33:36.150 --> 00:33:39.150
need that because we're very small team. Were only ten people in the marketing
482
00:33:39.150 --> 00:33:43.859
team Gong and and we were half
of that just three months ago. So
483
00:33:44.019 --> 00:33:47.380
we're growing quickly, but the team
still small and I need very experienced people
484
00:33:47.460 --> 00:33:53.059
who usually already had these senior titles
in other places. And getting these people
485
00:33:53.099 --> 00:33:57.730
to join my team is much easier
when they see a promotion path for them
486
00:33:57.970 --> 00:34:02.009
and there's some space or gap between
their title and mine. And I hired
487
00:34:02.009 --> 00:34:06.089
all these people when I was a
VP. So you can imagine if you're
488
00:34:06.089 --> 00:34:07.570
already VP and I'm trying to con
lene to come work for me, but
489
00:34:07.650 --> 00:34:12.000
I'm a VP right and you have
to take a step down to director,
490
00:34:12.519 --> 00:34:15.440
you're wondering when will you ever get
that chance to be promoted to VP again?
491
00:34:15.719 --> 00:34:19.760
Now that we've opened that gap and
I'm a CMO, you see that
492
00:34:19.880 --> 00:34:23.159
white space and you know that there
is room for additional VP's in the company
493
00:34:23.309 --> 00:34:28.550
in the years to come. So
that that was another pretty big consideration for
494
00:34:28.909 --> 00:34:30.829
my promotion. Just I asked my
boss. I said, look, at
495
00:34:30.869 --> 00:34:35.829
some point I'll need this promotion to
make it easier for me to hire VP's
496
00:34:35.909 --> 00:34:38.739
from other companies because they won't join
me as a VP. But reckily a
497
00:34:38.780 --> 00:34:42.300
lot of them did. But I
won't be able to drag this on forever.
498
00:34:42.340 --> 00:34:45.900
They want to see a promotion path
and there's only one VP of marketing.
499
00:34:45.980 --> 00:34:47.860
They know I need to get run
over by a bus for them to
500
00:34:47.900 --> 00:34:52.059
get that position. That's not a
great starting point for them. So they
501
00:34:52.139 --> 00:34:54.769
want that gap to see that.
And then, and finally, the maybe
502
00:34:54.849 --> 00:35:00.250
third consideration was we waited with an
announcement on my promotion until we had hired
503
00:35:00.289 --> 00:35:07.400
a chief people officer and the chief
financial officer and we announced all three additions
504
00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:10.840
to the C suite on the same
day, sort of to get the maximum
505
00:35:12.159 --> 00:35:15.920
bang for our box. And that's
sort of appointment round in the C suite
506
00:35:16.000 --> 00:35:22.269
signals to the market that this company
is really gearing up for the next fixed
507
00:35:22.309 --> 00:35:25.309
stage of growth. Are Are Chief
Financial Officer Tim Ritter's just stepped down from
508
00:35:25.309 --> 00:35:30.469
a very large public company to join
going our chief people officer, Sandy coach,
509
00:35:30.469 --> 00:35:34.630
are left us from a very successful
company to come join us and and
510
00:35:35.269 --> 00:35:37.940
we time that together with my promotion
to signal to the market that we mean
511
00:35:38.019 --> 00:35:43.340
business and this company is going to
the next stage of growth. Yeah,
512
00:35:43.500 --> 00:35:46.619
yeah, so, speaking of Bang
for your Buck, I noticed recently you've
513
00:35:46.619 --> 00:35:52.050
done a lot of advertising around revenue
intelligence and especially in some, you know,
514
00:35:52.130 --> 00:35:57.969
more traditional ways like billboards and and
things like that. I'm curious how
515
00:35:58.010 --> 00:36:02.250
do you think through allocation of like
high level kind of brand awareness campaigns in
516
00:36:02.369 --> 00:36:07.079
your budget when you're going through category
creation? Do you like? What's the
517
00:36:07.119 --> 00:36:13.280
Calculus for that? Look like great
question. So here's here's my high level
518
00:36:13.360 --> 00:36:15.840
view and then we can get as
detail as one the boring our list.
519
00:36:16.599 --> 00:36:22.670
At least eighty percent of my budget
should be attributed to results, measurable results.
520
00:36:22.949 --> 00:36:28.269
So a big part of the budget
goes to demand generation, and within
521
00:36:28.349 --> 00:36:31.860
that I include our content creation,
which is very tightly tied to the man
522
00:36:31.980 --> 00:36:36.099
generation. We don't just create content
for the sake of creating it and hope
523
00:36:36.099 --> 00:36:40.820
for the best. We tied together
very deeply with our dimension campaigns. That
524
00:36:40.980 --> 00:36:44.900
leaves me with fifteen or twenty percent
of the budget that we get to do
525
00:36:45.019 --> 00:36:49.369
some fun stuff that I think is
important that we know in advance will not
526
00:36:49.489 --> 00:36:52.650
be completely measurable, and that includes
stuff like billboards which, no matter what
527
00:36:52.809 --> 00:36:58.050
people say, is never going to
be measurable place with today's technology, and
528
00:36:58.170 --> 00:37:00.929
we're okay with that. And,
as I already mentioned, I'm fortunate to
529
00:37:00.969 --> 00:37:04.880
work for CEO who was a CMO
and he gets that and he he wants
530
00:37:05.079 --> 00:37:10.840
our candidates and employees and business partners
and investors to look at going billboards as
531
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:15.239
they're making their daily commune to work
and we know that that has value,
532
00:37:15.110 --> 00:37:19.949
even if we can't measure the hard
Roy on it. When we do these
533
00:37:20.030 --> 00:37:23.670
billboard campaigns, like right now,
we've taken over the Montgomery station here in
534
00:37:23.909 --> 00:37:29.269
San Francisco for the month of Dreen
Force and I've done some other billboards and
535
00:37:29.309 --> 00:37:32.500
I've got twenty cars wrapped around with
Revenue Intelligence randing, by the way,
536
00:37:34.099 --> 00:37:37.500
all around town. Every meeting I've
had in the last few weeks and every
537
00:37:37.539 --> 00:37:42.139
candidate I've interviewed have mentioned either bumping
into one of our cars or seeing one
538
00:37:42.179 --> 00:37:45.969
of our billboards. I know that, even at a subconscious level, that
539
00:37:45.369 --> 00:37:50.969
is affecting their decision of whether they
will accept our offer, whether they will
540
00:37:51.409 --> 00:37:53.849
want to do business with us,
because they see this as the leading brand
541
00:37:53.969 --> 00:37:58.010
and and I've read some great research
from Linkedin. They published it recently,
542
00:37:58.130 --> 00:38:04.400
that they they research these brand building
campaigns for be to be and even though
543
00:38:04.519 --> 00:38:07.320
the the the exact effect, is
hard to measure, they've concluded, and
544
00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:10.960
they've got some numbers to show for
it as well, that this actually affects
545
00:38:12.000 --> 00:38:16.030
even your churn rates because existing customers
who are exposed to more and more of
546
00:38:16.070 --> 00:38:21.869
these rand building campaigns, that reassures
their decision that they make the right decision
547
00:38:21.869 --> 00:38:25.230
to go with the leading player in
your field. And they've shown a strong
548
00:38:25.309 --> 00:38:30.380
correlation between the biggest spender on these
brand bit building campaigns and who the category
549
00:38:30.460 --> 00:38:35.739
leader is. So it's correlation,
it's not causation. You could say that
550
00:38:35.860 --> 00:38:38.139
because they're the brand leader, they
have more budget than anyone else, that
551
00:38:38.179 --> 00:38:42.409
they can afford to do this,
which which is probably true right, but
552
00:38:42.530 --> 00:38:46.530
I completely see the other side of
that correlation. Suggesting causation would says if
553
00:38:46.570 --> 00:38:51.449
you spend more than your share in
the market on building more brand, you
554
00:38:51.570 --> 00:38:53.889
get more mind share, you eventually
get more customers and and that is a
555
00:38:53.969 --> 00:38:58.679
virtuous cycle. You continue building,
and the opposite, of course, is
556
00:38:58.719 --> 00:39:04.280
the vicious cycle. If you are
cheap on these brand building campaigns and you're
557
00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:07.159
thinking that, yeah, my demands
and activities are enough and you're smaller competitor
558
00:39:07.320 --> 00:39:09.949
now is spending a lot more than
new they're going to get the mind share
559
00:39:09.949 --> 00:39:14.909
and they're going to get the market. Sure, I'm a big believer in
560
00:39:15.030 --> 00:39:17.150
that, even if some of that
belief is intuitive and a leap of faith.
561
00:39:17.789 --> 00:39:22.389
We're seeing it in our everyday operations
and and the little date data that
562
00:39:22.630 --> 00:39:25.500
is out there supports what we're saying. Sure see and certainly no one is,
563
00:39:25.579 --> 00:39:30.019
especially if they're making an investment in
a new product category. They don't
564
00:39:30.019 --> 00:39:31.980
want to invest in a company that
they're not sure of the future of the
565
00:39:32.260 --> 00:39:37.579
opening or ifill have resources to invest
in the product or support or what have
566
00:39:37.699 --> 00:39:40.849
you. And in a way,
showing that you have the resources to invest
567
00:39:40.889 --> 00:39:45.090
in these brand campaigns shows that your
well resourced, shows that you're trying to
568
00:39:45.170 --> 00:39:49.530
grow the company and that's that can
inced a lot of confidence. Like you
569
00:39:49.530 --> 00:39:52.159
said, exactly exactly and and works
are across all level. It works for
570
00:39:52.159 --> 00:39:55.599
a tracting investors because they're seeing you
all over the place. It works for
571
00:39:55.760 --> 00:40:00.519
tracting candidates because they want to work
for an employer that's sable and they're looking
572
00:40:00.519 --> 00:40:02.519
for a little bit of job security
and joining a market leader. And the
573
00:40:02.679 --> 00:40:07.869
works for getting partners and customers because
they want to go with a popular choice
574
00:40:07.909 --> 00:40:12.150
with the leading company. Yeah,
yeah, so we're running close to at
575
00:40:12.190 --> 00:40:15.429
a time. But before we we
go, I know you wanted to share
576
00:40:15.469 --> 00:40:20.869
your thoughts on what you consider the
greatest category creation example of all time,
577
00:40:21.349 --> 00:40:22.900
and I've I don't know what it
is. I've you just told me that
578
00:40:22.940 --> 00:40:27.820
it wasn't gone. So yeah,
I hope one day there will be the
579
00:40:27.900 --> 00:40:30.019
case study on that. But yeah, I just thought of this. Took
580
00:40:30.099 --> 00:40:34.900
yesterday when I was asked about some
great example. So you know, within
581
00:40:35.059 --> 00:40:37.530
the software industry there are few examples
people talk about. I want to look
582
00:40:37.530 --> 00:40:42.530
outside of the software industry to what
I really considers as the best category creating
583
00:40:42.570 --> 00:40:47.170
example, and that is in the
s there was a diamond cartel called the
584
00:40:47.329 --> 00:40:53.199
beers and they had an eighty percent
hold on the rough diamond market and they
585
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:59.400
had warehouses full of diamonds that they
couldn't get rid of because people weren't buying
586
00:40:59.440 --> 00:41:02.679
enough diamonds. So they went to
their the agency, which was jwt in
587
00:41:02.760 --> 00:41:06.829
New York, and they said help
us get rid of these diamonds, and
588
00:41:07.789 --> 00:41:13.110
Jwt came with what is one of
the most brilliant category building campaigns in history,
589
00:41:13.630 --> 00:41:16.710
and that the slogan was a diamond
is forever, and they launched that
590
00:41:16.829 --> 00:41:22.260
campaign and over the years it is
become synonymous with diamonds. And when I
591
00:41:22.380 --> 00:41:28.699
look at how confident the beers were
at that time because they had such a
592
00:41:29.539 --> 00:41:34.730
monopoly over the diamond market, the
first year's adds ran without the company name.
593
00:41:34.889 --> 00:41:37.409
It said a diamond is forever and
didn't even say the beers on really
594
00:41:37.449 --> 00:41:42.329
have confident that if you just go
and buy a diamond there's an eighty percent
595
00:41:42.369 --> 00:41:45.409
chance it's going to beat the beers
anyway. So why push the brand name?
596
00:41:45.449 --> 00:41:47.960
Let's just push the category. And
now that is a huge inspiration to
597
00:41:49.000 --> 00:41:52.280
me. And over the years two
beers, through their bad campaigns, managed
598
00:41:52.360 --> 00:41:59.519
to convince brides and grooms throughout the
Western world that you have to spend two
599
00:41:59.519 --> 00:42:02.030
months words of salary on an engagement
ring and then you have to buy a
600
00:42:02.190 --> 00:42:07.750
diamond ring for Valentines and for Christmas
and for any other sort of life event.
601
00:42:07.190 --> 00:42:10.750
Sure that is entirely made up in
the last seventy years. That is
602
00:42:10.829 --> 00:42:16.019
not some age old medieval tradition or
religious position and everyone looks at it as
603
00:42:16.139 --> 00:42:21.699
just a fact of life today and
and I think that's what makes that move
604
00:42:21.820 --> 00:42:25.099
such a brilliant move for category building. And years later, when the beers
605
00:42:25.139 --> 00:42:30.369
market share came down from eighty to
sixty percent, they started highlighting their own
606
00:42:30.409 --> 00:42:32.329
brand name a little bit more.
They open retail location so you can actually
607
00:42:32.369 --> 00:42:36.329
choose to buy it, the beer's
diamond, because most diamond store, if
608
00:42:36.329 --> 00:42:38.489
you go into Harry Winston, you
don't know where that diamond was sourced from.
609
00:42:38.690 --> 00:42:42.050
If you go to a tiffany's,
you don't know where that diamond was
610
00:42:42.090 --> 00:42:44.800
sourced from, but if you go
into the beer store you know that they
611
00:42:44.840 --> 00:42:49.199
source that diamond. So I'm hoping
one day that that our categories success looks
612
00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:53.079
like that and then we've become synonymous
with the category and that we've created this
613
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:59.710
daily or life habit with people that
they know that for winning sales teams.
614
00:42:59.750 --> 00:43:02.949
They need revenue intelligence, and then
revenue intelligence means gone. Yeah, that
615
00:43:04.110 --> 00:43:07.110
is sort of my inspiration and I
hope we get anything close to that.
616
00:43:07.190 --> 00:43:13.340
Earlier we were talking about getting inspiration
outside of marketing or be tob and yeah,
617
00:43:13.500 --> 00:43:17.860
that example of the beer certainly fits
fits that example. Any any advice
618
00:43:17.980 --> 00:43:22.780
you want to share for someone who's
considering category design or already started to go
619
00:43:22.900 --> 00:43:28.690
down that path and looking to be
successful? Well, my my arguably annoying
620
00:43:28.730 --> 00:43:32.650
advice would be avoided at all costs. If you can, don't create a
621
00:43:32.769 --> 00:43:37.969
category unless you absolutely have to.
It's so much easier riding a wave and
622
00:43:37.050 --> 00:43:43.760
joining a category and being able to
differentiate why you're better than other players.
623
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:45.800
I mean, they're the two ways, the two arguments you can make.
624
00:43:45.880 --> 00:43:49.599
It's always one of them. Either
you articulate how you are different than better,
625
00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:52.920
or you come in cheaper. You
can say I have eighty percent of
626
00:43:52.000 --> 00:43:54.750
the features of the leading player,
but I'm half the price. This is
627
00:43:54.750 --> 00:43:57.989
why you should buy from me.
So you always pick one of them.
628
00:43:58.030 --> 00:44:00.030
Either your product is much better,
but you need to be able to clearly
629
00:44:00.070 --> 00:44:05.389
show how, especially in today's market
with sometimes hundreds of players in each category
630
00:44:05.429 --> 00:44:08.469
or you just say that you're the
cheapest and that that is your market value
631
00:44:08.510 --> 00:44:13.820
proposition. It's so much easier going
to an existing category, especially if that
632
00:44:14.019 --> 00:44:19.019
categories already at that budget line item
stage. Why would you want to,
633
00:44:19.460 --> 00:44:22.019
you know, Go Bang your head
against a brick wall and have to create
634
00:44:22.139 --> 00:44:25.489
that from scratch when so few companies
have ever succeeded doing that? So I
635
00:44:25.530 --> 00:44:29.730
would start by looking what's the best
category I can actually fit in, and
636
00:44:30.010 --> 00:44:35.329
only only if you have gone through
the the long exercise of understanding that really
637
00:44:35.369 --> 00:44:40.679
the benefits of creating a new category
are much bigger than the costs of doing
638
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:45.840
so or remaining in an existing category, then go ahead and do that.
639
00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:51.239
And really it has to be something
that the entire company and product and market
640
00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:53.670
agree on, that there's a real
problem that you have a real solution for
641
00:44:54.309 --> 00:44:59.829
and that it is so far away
from anything else out there that it demands
642
00:44:59.869 --> 00:45:02.829
a new category name. And then
you need to go through the entire internal
643
00:45:02.829 --> 00:45:07.699
communications process and buying buy in to
make sure you roll that out in a
644
00:45:07.019 --> 00:45:10.340
very, very convincing way and that
that's just a start. It doesn't guarantee
645
00:45:10.340 --> 00:45:14.659
anything, but without all of that
you don't stand a chance. All right.
646
00:45:14.699 --> 00:45:16.980
So that's to these advice. Don't
do it, yes, unless you
647
00:45:17.099 --> 00:45:21.449
for it, unless you have to, and then be really thoughtful and intentional
648
00:45:21.449 --> 00:45:23.769
about bringing the whole company on board
and you have the patience to see a
649
00:45:23.929 --> 00:45:28.610
through. Absolutely yeah, good stuff. All right. If one of our
650
00:45:28.650 --> 00:45:30.530
listeners wants to get in touch with
you, what's the best way for that?
651
00:45:30.809 --> 00:45:34.969
I suggest connect on Linkedin. It's
booty letter bore. There's only one
652
00:45:35.010 --> 00:45:37.400
of me on Linkedin, so I
should be very, very simplifinding the lettergore
653
00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:40.719
and, of course, check out
Gong Dot ioh we have. If you're
654
00:45:40.719 --> 00:45:45.039
in sales, going to love our
block. There's plenty of great stuff there,
655
00:45:45.039 --> 00:45:46.800
and if you're into category building our
marketing, you can learn a lot
656
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:52.150
about what we're doing around revenue intelligence. Good deal duty. Thanks for being
657
00:45:52.150 --> 00:45:53.710
with me today. Thanks for having
me, John. All right, take
658
00:45:53.750 --> 00:45:59.869
care. Okay. Well, that
reps up this episode of the Category Creation
659
00:46:00.030 --> 00:46:02.590
Series. I hope you enjoyed it
and I hope that this episode helped you
660
00:46:02.750 --> 00:46:07.500
in some small way to become a
better marketer. Now, if you want
661
00:46:07.539 --> 00:46:10.059
to get in touch with me,
you can just head to John Dot Marketing
662
00:46:10.579 --> 00:46:14.900
in your browser or, of course, you can find me on Linkedin.
663
00:46:15.260 --> 00:46:21.409
Thanks for listening. I'll see you
next time. I hate it when podcasts
664
00:46:21.530 --> 00:46:23.969
incessantly ask their listeners for reviews,
but I get why they do it,
665
00:46:24.329 --> 00:46:29.449
because reviews are enormously helpful when you're
trying to grow a podcast audience. So
666
00:46:29.650 --> 00:46:31.530
here's what we decided to do.
If you leave a review for be tob
667
00:46:31.610 --> 00:46:37.039
growth and apple podcasts and email me
a screenshot of the review to James at
668
00:46:37.079 --> 00:46:39.679
Sweet Fish Mediacom, I'll send you
a signed copy of my new book,
669
00:46:39.719 --> 00:46:44.360
content based networking, how to instantly
connect with anyone you want to know.
670
00:46:44.840 --> 00:46:46.710
We get a review, you get
a free book. We both win.