#CategoryCreation 23: How to Pitch Category Design to Your CEO

WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.360 --> 00:00:07.910 Hi there, and welcome to the BDB growth show. This is John Ruggie 2 00:00:07.950 --> 00:00:11.710 and I host our category creation series here. I'm also the VP of marketing 3 00:00:11.789 --> 00:00:16.469 strategy at Bombomb, where we help you build better business relationships through personal one 4 00:00:16.949 --> 00:00:20.710 video. All right, so, if you've read much about category design or 5 00:00:21.030 --> 00:00:24.859 worked on this strategy at all yourself, you already know that this is the 6 00:00:24.980 --> 00:00:29.620 process that has to be led and fully supported by your CEO. Category Design 7 00:00:29.739 --> 00:00:33.420 is not something that the marketing department can just go off and do on its 8 00:00:33.460 --> 00:00:37.250 own. But you might be asking yourself, how do you go about bringing 9 00:00:37.369 --> 00:00:40.689 this up with him or with her? What is the best way to get 10 00:00:40.689 --> 00:00:45.409 your CEOS by in? Well, this is one area I have some very 11 00:00:45.490 --> 00:00:50.679 recent experience with, because we just went through this process at bombomb. Today 12 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:54.560 I'm going to be joined by our own CEO, Connor McClusky, and he's 13 00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:58.880 going to share his advice for how to approach your CEO about category design. 14 00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:02.840 All right, Connor, thanks for being on the show with me today. 15 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:06.989 Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, of course. So, for 16 00:01:07.109 --> 00:01:11.430 those of the you that don't know, Connor is our cofounder and CEO of 17 00:01:11.750 --> 00:01:15.549 Bombomb, and I know you've tell the story lots of times, Connor, 18 00:01:15.670 --> 00:01:17.790 but I would love to hear one more time. This is, you know, 19 00:01:17.870 --> 00:01:21.140 the story of how and why you started bombomb back in the day. 20 00:01:21.140 --> 00:01:26.099 Yeah, yeah, so I was a billboard salesman and had built up my 21 00:01:26.219 --> 00:01:33.769 business to about a hundred and fifty clients and my whole thing was, you 22 00:01:33.890 --> 00:01:38.650 know, I was going doortodoor literally selling billboards and and that's a tough job. 23 00:01:38.290 --> 00:01:45.329 And so the more times I met facetoface with my clients, the more 24 00:01:46.010 --> 00:01:49.719 billboards they buy with me, the more renewals I would get. And so 25 00:01:49.920 --> 00:01:53.319 I was like, I wish there was a way that I could send myself. 26 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:56.920 So I did the math and said, here's how many people I can 27 00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:00.400 meet with every month, and I was like, it's literally impossible for me 28 00:02:00.469 --> 00:02:05.189 to meet with all these people every month. How could I do that? 29 00:02:05.549 --> 00:02:08.110 And so I thought video would be a great way. What if I could 30 00:02:08.150 --> 00:02:15.900 send my face into those people's offices and them meet with me on their own 31 00:02:15.939 --> 00:02:17.500 time? And I was like what if I could send a video through an 32 00:02:17.580 --> 00:02:23.300 email? And there's got to be a company that does this, and looked 33 00:02:23.340 --> 00:02:25.099 all over the Internet. There wasn't. This was two thousand and five, 34 00:02:25.180 --> 00:02:31.490 two thousand six time period and just literally was like man, I got to 35 00:02:31.569 --> 00:02:36.530 do this. So got a little green screen, shot a video, bates 36 00:02:36.569 --> 00:02:39.810 of BHTML through it on a couple servers, you know, different things, 37 00:02:39.889 --> 00:02:45.120 send it out to a hundred fifty of our of my clients, and within 38 00:02:45.479 --> 00:02:50.800 forty eight hours I had thirty phone calls and forty emails of people not saying 39 00:02:51.520 --> 00:02:53.639 Hey, can I buy more billboards with you, but what is the name 40 00:02:53.639 --> 00:02:57.919 of the company that you used to do that? And so that was the 41 00:02:58.039 --> 00:03:04.389 genesis bombomb and start of a long, hard journey of now, you know, 42 00:03:04.550 --> 00:03:07.949 fourteen years later. Yeah, you're just cut now kind of like starting 43 00:03:07.990 --> 00:03:14.219 to see people like like warm up to that idea and understand, you know, 44 00:03:14.300 --> 00:03:16.699 how to be comfortable on camera and understand how it's a video can be 45 00:03:16.740 --> 00:03:22.139 used in different contexts. And so it's been I know you said you sent 46 00:03:22.219 --> 00:03:24.699 that video's like a hundred fifty people at first, at that first time, 47 00:03:24.780 --> 00:03:29.969 but now I think what like a hundred thousand people a month send a video 48 00:03:30.050 --> 00:03:31.889 through bombm or a day. Might be getting this set wrong, but yeah, 49 00:03:32.169 --> 00:03:37.610 the day. Yeah, yeah, cool. So along the way, 50 00:03:37.650 --> 00:03:40.599 yeah, a lot of work spent kind of introducing this idea to the world 51 00:03:40.599 --> 00:03:45.360 and and now we're going to talk about, you know, how we're going 52 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:50.000 through a much more intentional process to make that happen through this idea of category 53 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:53.960 design. So we're doing two interviews with you know, you and Darren at 54 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:58.229 bomb bomb. Darren's our president. We just did an interview with him about 55 00:03:58.229 --> 00:04:00.150 how to get your team on board, your you know, your team at 56 00:04:00.150 --> 00:04:03.270 large, on board with category design, and I want to talk to you 57 00:04:03.469 --> 00:04:09.830 because getting your CEO on board has to happen first and that is so crucial 58 00:04:10.340 --> 00:04:13.620 to this strategy. So you know, no one to hear that better from 59 00:04:13.740 --> 00:04:16.579 than you know, CEO himself, who's just gone through this discussion. So 60 00:04:16.699 --> 00:04:20.100 I love to just maybe to kind of set things off, just tell me 61 00:04:20.180 --> 00:04:25.089 why you think it's so important for a CEO to be not only involved with 62 00:04:25.209 --> 00:04:28.689 category design but just more so than that, like a key part of it, 63 00:04:28.810 --> 00:04:32.290 and from day one. Yeah, I mean it's key because everybody's kind 64 00:04:32.329 --> 00:04:36.170 of got to be on board with it right. So you know, you've 65 00:04:36.170 --> 00:04:43.240 got it touches every aspect of the business, from marketing CSS product and so 66 00:04:43.720 --> 00:04:48.199 you're you're touching every aspect of that and so if there's a single person not 67 00:04:48.319 --> 00:04:54.829 on board and those people are higher up or whatever, you're going to get 68 00:04:54.870 --> 00:04:59.509 road blocks and and it's gonna Derail. And what they, you know, 69 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:02.269 talk about in the book is, you know, it'll just turn into a, 70 00:05:02.750 --> 00:05:09.620 you know, expensive marketing campaign. Then it is a whole design category 71 00:05:09.779 --> 00:05:14.139 thing that you're trying to create. So once I kind of realize that was 72 00:05:14.300 --> 00:05:16.620 like, you know, as you build the company and you're a couple people, 73 00:05:16.740 --> 00:05:23.009 it's easier, but as you get into hundreds of employees, you know, 74 00:05:23.209 --> 00:05:28.170 the like authority of the CEO or the power of what you bring to 75 00:05:28.250 --> 00:05:32.810 the table really makes a difference. With that, people know you're behind this 76 00:05:33.009 --> 00:05:35.839 and that you're going to you're going to stop at nothing to make sure that 77 00:05:36.040 --> 00:05:41.519 this gets done. So yeah, yeah, you're telling me earlier about the 78 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:46.199 story you heard about George W Bush, and it like his, I guess, 79 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:50.949 delegation of the of the war in Iraq to like I love the example. 80 00:05:51.110 --> 00:05:55.709 So you walk me through like this idea of like when a leader should 81 00:05:55.750 --> 00:05:59.110 delegate something and win that Lee the leader needs to be involved in something directly. 82 00:05:59.189 --> 00:06:03.579 Yeah, I mean it's I'm a visionary kind of leader. Very hands 83 00:06:03.660 --> 00:06:09.980 off. I'm you know, I put the things in place there or KPI's 84 00:06:10.060 --> 00:06:12.899 and say this is your thing, I'm going to hold you accountable for it 85 00:06:13.060 --> 00:06:15.860 and ask you about it, but I'm not going to get into that details 86 00:06:15.899 --> 00:06:21.170 of it. And you know that American experience is the is the documentary that 87 00:06:21.250 --> 00:06:28.930 I watched on George W Bush there and and when something is like a defining 88 00:06:29.250 --> 00:06:34.680 moment in the history of your company, your country, whatever you're leading, 89 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:41.800 the leader having all of the details, and really, even if that's not 90 00:06:41.920 --> 00:06:48.350 your personality, it's a necessity because in hindsight your people could be making mistakes 91 00:06:48.389 --> 00:06:54.310 and ultimately it falls back to the leader if that's a successor of failure. 92 00:06:54.949 --> 00:07:00.189 So for you to be able to get into the details of something that in 93 00:07:00.389 --> 00:07:04.540 this case, is extremely important and pivotal, because you're talking about you're making 94 00:07:04.579 --> 00:07:09.740 a decision whether you're going to be the leader in a market or second or 95 00:07:09.860 --> 00:07:14.779 third place, and so you're either going to make that decision or that decisions 96 00:07:14.860 --> 00:07:17.850 going to be made for you. And so if you think this is a 97 00:07:17.930 --> 00:07:24.649 pivotal part of your decision or strategy going into the future of the what your 98 00:07:24.769 --> 00:07:29.850 business will be, you need to get into those details and at least understand 99 00:07:29.970 --> 00:07:33.000 it. You need to know all of those details and know either have an 100 00:07:33.040 --> 00:07:40.720 opinion about those things or help lead that or go through that process and know 101 00:07:40.920 --> 00:07:46.149 it very intimately because it's important. So sounds like what you're saying is that 102 00:07:46.910 --> 00:07:51.430 this decision to pursue this strategy isn't something you can take casually or, you 103 00:07:51.470 --> 00:07:54.629 know, something you can do for a little while and then fall back on. 104 00:07:54.829 --> 00:07:58.149 It's, I think you use the word pivotal. It's like a pivotal 105 00:07:58.189 --> 00:08:01.339 moment in your in your path as a company, and you're making this decision 106 00:08:01.459 --> 00:08:05.819 to like either go after this category or you got to make a decision to, 107 00:08:05.060 --> 00:08:07.699 like you said, kind of sit on the sidelines and maybe you just 108 00:08:07.779 --> 00:08:11.740 want to occupy a niche in that category or some other one, but you 109 00:08:11.819 --> 00:08:15.329 can't really sit like do a little bit of both. You have to pick 110 00:08:15.410 --> 00:08:18.370 one and that kind of strategy doesn't happen really any other level. But but 111 00:08:18.529 --> 00:08:24.610 the CEOS. Yeah, yeah, I mean if you that, decisions either 112 00:08:24.730 --> 00:08:28.199 going to be made by you or made by somebody else. And so if 113 00:08:28.240 --> 00:08:35.039 you have unlimited resources, it's still doesn't work because you're going to find people 114 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:37.879 nipping at your, you know, your heels and this or that, and 115 00:08:39.080 --> 00:08:46.789 so like picking those things and being being able to say no is whether it's 116 00:08:46.789 --> 00:08:50.230 to a customer, a feature, a market. You know, people talk 117 00:08:50.269 --> 00:08:54.950 about it is this Shiny Penny Syndrome, like you're always seeing it, you're 118 00:08:54.950 --> 00:08:58.659 always picking it up and trying to pick up that next shiny penny and they're 119 00:08:58.740 --> 00:09:03.980 always will be another opportunity. There always will be another market, there always 120 00:09:03.980 --> 00:09:07.700 will be all these things and the discipline of saying no and staying focused is 121 00:09:09.139 --> 00:09:13.649 the key. Yeah, when you first came across category design, did that? 122 00:09:15.370 --> 00:09:20.490 Was that your understanding of the strategy then and or as it evolved over 123 00:09:20.610 --> 00:09:24.519 time? I would say it has evolved. It was more of a marketing 124 00:09:24.600 --> 00:09:28.840 strategy when I first like looked at it, until I read the book and 125 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:35.519 until I read the book and started understanding it more and getting the presentation from 126 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:39.309 you and and to where I started being like, okay, this is a 127 00:09:39.389 --> 00:09:43.830 real differentiator. How does competition come into place? How does the market come 128 00:09:43.909 --> 00:09:48.549 into place? And so it's really changed in my mind. You know, 129 00:09:48.750 --> 00:09:54.940 as I get pitched a lot of ideas that are the saviors of the company 130 00:09:56.179 --> 00:10:00.019 and I've been through. You know, large pushes on stuff and and there 131 00:10:00.100 --> 00:10:05.220 is no magic bullet, but it's a lot of things that come together and 132 00:10:05.379 --> 00:10:09.929 it's a strategy. Right. It's being intentional and staying focused, and that's 133 00:10:09.970 --> 00:10:13.009 probably the hardest thing to do in business when you're trying to make payroll. 134 00:10:13.049 --> 00:10:16.450 Yeah, yeah, you missed the book. You're talking about play bigger, 135 00:10:16.649 --> 00:10:20.330 play bigger. Yep. Yeah. So a lot of the people listen to 136 00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:24.600 this show, you know, some of them will be CEOS or similar positions, 137 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:28.480 but a lot of you know listeners are going to be marketing leaders, 138 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:33.200 sales leaders, and they're kind of in a position where it maybe they think 139 00:10:33.480 --> 00:10:35.629 this is something that they should discuss, maybe they should bring it up with 140 00:10:35.669 --> 00:10:41.389 their CEO. What's your advice for them on how they should approach their CEO 141 00:10:41.590 --> 00:10:46.389 about this idea? Yeah, you know, if I was trying to influence, 142 00:10:46.429 --> 00:10:50.779 if I worked at a company and I was trying to get this idea 143 00:10:50.379 --> 00:10:54.980 pushed into leadership or the CEO, where I think it should start, I 144 00:10:56.059 --> 00:11:03.100 would ask questions around how the how the CEO thought about this and what was 145 00:11:03.179 --> 00:11:09.809 his thoughts about category and what was what were her thoughts around how she thinks 146 00:11:09.850 --> 00:11:13.250 about strategy and what she does and how she thinks about those things, because 147 00:11:15.090 --> 00:11:18.289 once you can get down to how they think about it, then you can 148 00:11:18.570 --> 00:11:24.639 frame kind of the category creation piece into their way of thinking and where it 149 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:28.559 would make sense. When it's just a foreign idea. You know, everybody 150 00:11:28.639 --> 00:11:33.029 comes to the CEO with tons of ideas on how to do stuff and some 151 00:11:33.190 --> 00:11:37.389 are good, some are bad and some are you know, you just catch 152 00:11:37.470 --> 00:11:41.629 them on the wrong day of where. You know problem is in so building 153 00:11:41.909 --> 00:11:48.259 that that not argument, but building a framing of where you can bring that 154 00:11:48.500 --> 00:11:50.779 into the way they think about the business, the way they think about the 155 00:11:50.860 --> 00:11:54.580 market, the way they think about the future of where the company is going 156 00:11:54.820 --> 00:12:01.340 and how that aligns to their goals as a company, as a board, 157 00:12:01.340 --> 00:12:05.889 as a and as a leader. Then you can fit this strategy into that 158 00:12:07.169 --> 00:12:09.250 and where and where that fits, you know, because you may find that 159 00:12:11.009 --> 00:12:13.610 they don't want to be the category and leader like. That's a that's a 160 00:12:13.690 --> 00:12:18.679 real possibility. Sure, so it sounds like you're what you're saying is like 161 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:24.240 doing so much. Think about trying to build some airtight argument for why this 162 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:26.679 needs to be the case. One you might be wrong. But I think 163 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:31.549 two more importantly, like you really need to develop that conversation with your CEO 164 00:12:31.669 --> 00:12:37.590 and understand how he or she is thinking about it and then you use that 165 00:12:37.629 --> 00:12:41.389 information to kind of bring up that conversation and explore it together. Yeah, 166 00:12:41.389 --> 00:12:46.620 and even finding out that background information from other people in the company around strategy, 167 00:12:46.779 --> 00:12:50.220 so you're not going into it cold, CEO, because you may not 168 00:12:50.340 --> 00:12:54.659 have access to the CEO readily and and you may need, you know, 169 00:12:56.379 --> 00:13:00.009 that that background. Now if you're, you know, vp of sales or 170 00:13:00.090 --> 00:13:03.250 something like that, or vp of marketing or Cmo or something like that, 171 00:13:03.529 --> 00:13:09.690 then you have that access and you can more readily have that conversation or know 172 00:13:09.889 --> 00:13:13.480 that information be able to position that in a way that will get them on 173 00:13:13.679 --> 00:13:18.759 board. But it's an iterative process. I think. You know, you 174 00:13:18.879 --> 00:13:22.399 want to chip away at it because you are talking about a strategy that takes 175 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.149 the whole company. So a lot of resources, a lot of focus. 176 00:13:26.350 --> 00:13:31.429 This, you know, in a lot of you know, some people could 177 00:13:31.470 --> 00:13:35.070 call that distraction and, you know, not focusing on the right things. 178 00:13:35.230 --> 00:13:39.470 You know, if you have other strategies in place that this will can flicked 179 00:13:39.590 --> 00:13:45.019 with, you have to think about the other teams that this will affect and 180 00:13:45.580 --> 00:13:50.139 how you move forward, because it's going to take a whole team and in 181 00:13:50.259 --> 00:13:54.059 a champion and all that. So yeah, how about in terms of like 182 00:13:54.220 --> 00:13:58.450 bridging the guide or the divide between, like someone who's in a functional role 183 00:14:00.090 --> 00:14:03.009 and, you know, someone who's in your position, like it's it's one 184 00:14:03.049 --> 00:14:05.850 thing if, let's say you're the CEO and like you're already thinking about strategy, 185 00:14:05.889 --> 00:14:09.960 or maybe you're the the CEEFO, and so you're already thinking about the 186 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:15.600 business in general, but when you come at things from a functional perspective, 187 00:14:15.639 --> 00:14:20.519 where that sales are marketing a product and you want to bring up something that 188 00:14:20.279 --> 00:14:24.750 really is going to affect a lot of things outside of your department, you 189 00:14:24.830 --> 00:14:28.429 have any thoughts on like how to bridge that gap and kind of bring that 190 00:14:28.509 --> 00:14:33.389 up and present something that maybe is, you know, outside like your expertise 191 00:14:33.429 --> 00:14:37.659 or your perview a little bit? Yeah, I mean it starts with relationships 192 00:14:39.019 --> 00:14:43.340 with those leaders of the all those different pieces. So, you know, 193 00:14:43.980 --> 00:14:48.580 the last straw to fall would be, you know, the top leader right 194 00:14:48.940 --> 00:14:52.580 in. So being able to build your case through those things, because typically 195 00:14:52.740 --> 00:14:56.210 this the CEO is going to go and meet with them and be like yeah, 196 00:14:56.330 --> 00:14:58.929 johnsman pushing me on this thing. What do you think about it? 197 00:14:58.129 --> 00:15:03.850 Right, and if you had already built those relationships as that person trying to 198 00:15:03.929 --> 00:15:09.240 push this idea forward and have talk to them and not sold it but like 199 00:15:09.679 --> 00:15:13.919 planted those ideas in their head and getting buy in from all these different areas, 200 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:18.480 it's going to make it easier for that you know leader to say, 201 00:15:20.240 --> 00:15:22.429 okay, let's explore this or let's do this or they're going to be much 202 00:15:22.429 --> 00:15:28.230 more open than if you hadn't put in the work and the relationship building and 203 00:15:28.549 --> 00:15:33.230 the you know, putting those nuggets into you know, those people, into 204 00:15:33.269 --> 00:15:37.379 people's minds, those ideas and planting those things over a long time. So 205 00:15:37.539 --> 00:15:43.340 it's you know, building those relationships internally will help build kind of your your 206 00:15:43.539 --> 00:15:50.250 case and and why you think this is is going forward and and those people 207 00:15:50.450 --> 00:15:54.970 give you feedback where it's like your practice run right. You don't want to 208 00:15:54.970 --> 00:15:58.169 go straight to the CEO and blow all your capital there. You want to 209 00:15:58.169 --> 00:16:03.570 be able to build that that argument get the feedback right. So if you're 210 00:16:03.690 --> 00:16:07.200 you know, you want to build those alliances and build that be if you're 211 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:11.399 the champion of this you want to you want to build other champions with you 212 00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:15.279 and get the idea spread through the organization. Yeah, yeah, so don't. 213 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:18.039 Don't try to do it all yourself. Like talk to other people, 214 00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:22.070 you know, build that you know group of others who are thinking about it 215 00:16:22.110 --> 00:16:25.669 and talking about it, and so you've got everyone part of the process. 216 00:16:25.950 --> 00:16:29.590 They're much more likely to kind of help you make that you're thinking better and 217 00:16:29.669 --> 00:16:32.110 you've got some support to kind of bring that to the CEO. So it's 218 00:16:32.149 --> 00:16:37.059 not such a do or die kind of situation. Yep, yeah, they're 219 00:16:37.139 --> 00:16:40.940 going to help you both that that idea, how to talk through it, 220 00:16:41.419 --> 00:16:47.450 how to how to be better about explaining the idea and and they they'll turn 221 00:16:47.490 --> 00:16:52.769 into champions for you. Sure, I know when we brought it up to 222 00:16:52.809 --> 00:16:56.889 you, we didn't really present it as a panacea. In fact, like 223 00:16:56.129 --> 00:17:00.889 we we called out a lot of things that we're going to be hard about 224 00:17:00.009 --> 00:17:03.960 this and like try to point out some of the risks. Is that? 225 00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:07.519 Is that something that like others need to think through? Like if someone comes 226 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:10.640 to you and they're like Hey, I've got this thing's going to solve all 227 00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:15.119 our problems, and they kind of gloss over the challenges or that the risks? 228 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:18.509 Is that improve your odds of moving forward that or do you like a 229 00:17:18.589 --> 00:17:21.750 bunch of red flags go up and you're thinking, like what am I missing? 230 00:17:21.829 --> 00:17:26.069 I should someone think about that. It's they're going across category design. 231 00:17:26.710 --> 00:17:32.380 Yeah, I mean obviously putting those things there's a balance there, in my 232 00:17:32.539 --> 00:17:36.859 opinion, and it depends on your team. Like our team is very like 233 00:17:37.579 --> 00:17:42.099 we can do them possible. So it's like we almost like the harder things, 234 00:17:42.180 --> 00:17:45.250 like if it's a layup, we're just like, what the heck, 235 00:17:45.410 --> 00:17:48.369 like, let's just do that, and then you would get in trouble later 236 00:17:48.650 --> 00:17:52.809 if you you know you had these problems. But building the case, you 237 00:17:52.930 --> 00:17:59.640 know you're going to get more buy in or deeper hooks if you get by 238 00:17:59.759 --> 00:18:03.559 in on the tough stuff right, and so being able to put that up 239 00:18:03.720 --> 00:18:08.640 front, I would say in our case, worked worked well because that's just 240 00:18:08.880 --> 00:18:14.430 our personality. But it's in our DNA. We do hard things or we 241 00:18:14.549 --> 00:18:18.349 do we do it the hard way for some reason. So I would I 242 00:18:18.430 --> 00:18:21.950 would say it would be based on, you know, your particular situation, 243 00:18:22.150 --> 00:18:26.980 your particular personalities that you have and in the whether it's the senior leadership group 244 00:18:27.059 --> 00:18:30.980 or yeah, kind of goes back to what you were talking about earlier. 245 00:18:32.059 --> 00:18:36.539 With an understanding the background of where the CEO is coming from. It's you 246 00:18:36.619 --> 00:18:38.500 know, it's you. Maybe you add another wrinkle to that. It's not 247 00:18:38.660 --> 00:18:44.450 just about understanding how they look at strategy, but also thinking through like what 248 00:18:44.529 --> 00:18:48.410 kind of personality they have, what kind of things will trigger positive and negative 249 00:18:48.410 --> 00:18:52.130 emotions, and how can you kind of frame this in a way that you 250 00:18:52.250 --> 00:18:55.490 know suits who they are as a person? Yeah, exactly. It's, 251 00:18:55.759 --> 00:19:00.720 you know, knowing yourself and knowing your team is key part of how you're 252 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:04.680 gonna push ideas through the organization. So how you do that, and you 253 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:08.680 know the masters of that in your organization. You know who they are and 254 00:19:08.920 --> 00:19:14.069 so you know, you know how you present that based on what you know 255 00:19:14.190 --> 00:19:18.430 about your team and and your organization, will help you push this idea through. 256 00:19:19.069 --> 00:19:22.710 Sure, sure, so we've, as we've talked through this and kind 257 00:19:22.710 --> 00:19:26.500 of debated it. At a certain point we decide at it. Okay, 258 00:19:26.500 --> 00:19:30.059 this is something we were going to do. What was that process like for 259 00:19:30.180 --> 00:19:33.380 you personally? was there a light bulb that went off, or was was 260 00:19:33.420 --> 00:19:37.099 there a certain thing that somebody said that kind of you know, pushed you 261 00:19:37.140 --> 00:19:40.930 over that threshold where you were confident enough. What I did that evolved? 262 00:19:41.369 --> 00:19:45.529 Yeah, I mean the lightbulb situation. For me, it took a while 263 00:19:47.329 --> 00:19:49.609 for me to get there because, you know, I was like okay, 264 00:19:49.690 --> 00:19:52.680 this is a good idea, let's go through it. But the light bulb 265 00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:59.160 really came when we are looking at the broader strategy of the business, and 266 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:04.119 the light bulb came in when it was how are we really going to differentiate 267 00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:07.950 ourselves in the market? You know? So we've been at this for fourteen 268 00:20:07.990 --> 00:20:12.069 years. Like I said, a lot of money, hundreds of millions of 269 00:20:12.109 --> 00:20:15.950 dollars, have come into the space over the last few years and so we're 270 00:20:15.950 --> 00:20:23.299 seeing competition pop up in different aspects of our business and and strategy changes when 271 00:20:23.460 --> 00:20:29.619 that comes along, or at least the temptation of strategy change comes into play 272 00:20:29.619 --> 00:20:33.460 when competition comes in with a lot of money. And so when we looked 273 00:20:33.500 --> 00:20:38.650 at the broader strategy of the business and I saw how this really fit, 274 00:20:40.410 --> 00:20:45.450 like where do we want to position ourselves now that there's now that we aren't 275 00:20:45.529 --> 00:20:52.119 the only thing pushing the rock up the hill and more people are validating the 276 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.720 space, that this is an actual thing that people will do. It wasn't 277 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:00.200 this Nich or whatever. It was like, there's real money in this space. 278 00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:10.509 It is five video personal videos finally arrived and now it's the strategy is 279 00:21:10.509 --> 00:21:17.190 less about how are we gonna like evangelize this to how is our DNA really 280 00:21:17.430 --> 00:21:22.220 going to differentiate us in the marketplace? Is What we can actually own and 281 00:21:22.500 --> 00:21:26.980 when at, based on who we are and what are what our ultimate goals 282 00:21:26.980 --> 00:21:32.740 are as a business. And so that was the light bulb that went off 283 00:21:32.859 --> 00:21:37.890 for me of where I was like this fits into the ultimate purpose of both 284 00:21:37.970 --> 00:21:45.410 my life and bomb bombs evolutionary life, and so it was a really catalyzing 285 00:21:45.809 --> 00:21:51.720 instance that was like, okay, Aha, I see how this fits into 286 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:56.400 the broader strategy, the North Star, the all of those things. So 287 00:21:56.039 --> 00:22:02.309 right. I love that example because it points out why category designer, or 288 00:22:02.349 --> 00:22:07.990 decision to pursue category design isn't something that you can just decide on arbitrarily. 289 00:22:07.190 --> 00:22:11.150 Like you can't read play bigger or and think well, this is a great 290 00:22:11.150 --> 00:22:15.390 strategy, let's just do that. You really have to be in the right 291 00:22:15.900 --> 00:22:19.660 circumstances for it to make sense. And it sounds like what you saw was 292 00:22:21.180 --> 00:22:26.099 we had kind across that threshold where we had the right circumstances and there was 293 00:22:26.140 --> 00:22:30.609 almost like an imperative because we saw that this, this market is taking place, 294 00:22:30.650 --> 00:22:33.410 it's growing, the category is going to happen with or without us. 295 00:22:33.970 --> 00:22:37.490 I'm not sure if you could have made that case just a few years ago 296 00:22:37.529 --> 00:22:42.930 even. Yeah, but because of that situation evolving like now, you have 297 00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:48.400 not just, you know, an understanding of category design theoretically, to the 298 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:53.160 abstract, but you see that there's there's a specific situation that bombomb and is 299 00:22:53.240 --> 00:22:57.440 in where this is it makes sense for us going forward. So you're kind 300 00:22:57.440 --> 00:23:00.869 of applying it to this, to the unique context of your own business. 301 00:23:02.630 --> 00:23:07.390 If we would have tried this maybe two years ago, it the timing might 302 00:23:07.470 --> 00:23:12.299 have been off, or where the the product was positioned was off, or 303 00:23:12.500 --> 00:23:17.819 the market that we were in was off or yeah, there's an align, 304 00:23:18.140 --> 00:23:22.299 alignment of the stars that kind of come together that have to make sense to 305 00:23:22.420 --> 00:23:26.769 make this work. Yeah, what kind of feedback have you gotten from the 306 00:23:26.849 --> 00:23:30.529 team? As we've decided we're going to move forward to this and you know, 307 00:23:30.609 --> 00:23:34.609 people have maybe brought questions or comments to you about where we're headed. 308 00:23:36.130 --> 00:23:40.650 What have you heard in that process? We've gotten excitement, we've gotten pushed 309 00:23:40.730 --> 00:23:45.480 back, we've gotten we should have always done this, we've gotten it's all 310 00:23:45.559 --> 00:23:48.559 of the above, and that that brings you us back to the you know, 311 00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:56.349 the importance of the CEO just pushing and going at the this to make 312 00:23:56.470 --> 00:24:02.789 sure that everybody's on board, to one continue to push the momentum of the 313 00:24:02.869 --> 00:24:08.990 people that are excited and to squash the people that are like man another another 314 00:24:10.259 --> 00:24:12.460 thing. You know that's just going to Peter out, that we're going to 315 00:24:12.500 --> 00:24:17.140 make this big push for a quarter and then this thing's going to go away 316 00:24:17.259 --> 00:24:22.339 into the ether and you know it'll be one of those projects that didn't quite 317 00:24:22.660 --> 00:24:26.329 you know, get off the ground or whatever. And so it's a sustained 318 00:24:26.650 --> 00:24:33.730 when you talk about a multi year, multi you know, lightning strike, 319 00:24:33.569 --> 00:24:38.279 you know, nine lightning strikes into the future and all these things, it 320 00:24:38.400 --> 00:24:42.079 gives a little bit of a different flare when you start talking that way to 321 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:47.519 the people that are both on the positive side and the negative side to rally 322 00:24:47.640 --> 00:24:52.000 around. Yeah, yeah, and you're in to your point. You can't 323 00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:56.390 really do that so well if you're if you're not in your position. Like 324 00:24:56.549 --> 00:24:59.309 that's a big reason. You know, it's a big part of what you 325 00:24:59.390 --> 00:25:02.670 do as a leaders keeping the team on track, you know, over a 326 00:25:02.750 --> 00:25:06.630 long period of time. Yep, because people forget, why are we doing 327 00:25:06.750 --> 00:25:11.619 this again? And then it's like another pandemic or something else happens, you 328 00:25:11.700 --> 00:25:15.940 know, where it's like we have very short term memory and so like. 329 00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:19.420 And that is what leadership is, that is what strategy is. It's like 330 00:25:19.619 --> 00:25:25.049 no, no, you know, I realize the world is changing. To 331 00:25:25.130 --> 00:25:27.849 do a week, but remember, this is the playbook, this is what 332 00:25:29.009 --> 00:25:32.769 we're doing. We're being very methodical about it. We're saying no to this, 333 00:25:33.410 --> 00:25:37.279 we're saying yes to this, and like realigning. I mean that's literally 334 00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:41.440 my job is to get with all of our leaders and being like, okay, 335 00:25:41.640 --> 00:25:45.160 how are we doing? What are you on track with that? And 336 00:25:45.240 --> 00:25:48.519 when they get off track, it's bringing them back to the alignment of where 337 00:25:48.519 --> 00:25:53.150 everybody is marching in the same direction, we're going after the same goals and 338 00:25:53.789 --> 00:25:59.589 we're pushing forward. So it's yeah, I mean that's the challenge of leadership, 339 00:25:59.789 --> 00:26:03.789 is to keep everybody march in this directive. Yeah, I'm sure in 340 00:26:03.869 --> 00:26:07.339 the right place. So it's that's the challenge, especially when you get differing 341 00:26:07.819 --> 00:26:11.740 opinions and views about where we're headed. Yeah, yeah, you can't. 342 00:26:11.740 --> 00:26:15.420 You got to please everyone. You can't try to please everybody. And so 343 00:26:15.980 --> 00:26:21.410 you have these disagreements, right, and it's like who's going to win? 344 00:26:21.529 --> 00:26:26.369 How our people heard and different personnelities. This is the knowing yourself and knowing 345 00:26:26.410 --> 00:26:33.000 your team. Like different personalities. They don't necessarily think that that's what they 346 00:26:33.039 --> 00:26:37.079 should do, but they just need to be heard and let that that that 347 00:26:37.240 --> 00:26:40.440 was put on the table. And now, and now I'm all right, 348 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:44.759 I'm not even like advocate, I'm actually for the other way, but I 349 00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:48.269 needed that to be heard in order for us to get alignment and to move 350 00:26:48.390 --> 00:26:53.789 forward. So and then other people need we need to all be in block 351 00:26:53.950 --> 00:26:57.990 step and if there's any disagreement, there is you know, you can't have 352 00:26:59.150 --> 00:27:03.660 disagreement or you know, that's the extreme of that. And so you've got 353 00:27:03.180 --> 00:27:07.700 people that are to either one bent or the other and you've got to take 354 00:27:07.779 --> 00:27:12.980 those things in consideration, bring the challenges, to bring everybody along and to 355 00:27:15.180 --> 00:27:21.930 have constructive and good conflict and how you resolve that, because we're on the 356 00:27:21.970 --> 00:27:26.769 same team. And we all want the same things. Yeah, yeah, 357 00:27:26.329 --> 00:27:33.119 and so you're having to really kind of sell and re sell this constantly, 358 00:27:33.319 --> 00:27:37.440 in consistently, which is why I like again, it has to be something 359 00:27:37.599 --> 00:27:41.200 that ultimately you have decided on. If it's if you're coming at it from 360 00:27:41.200 --> 00:27:44.829 a position where, well, this is something the marketing team thought we should 361 00:27:44.869 --> 00:27:48.430 do, that's a really weak position to try to get someone else on your 362 00:27:48.470 --> 00:27:51.990 team on board or, you know, talk through those concerns. Yeah, 363 00:27:52.029 --> 00:27:56.109 I mean. Well, and it's easy to be like I'm gonna push that 364 00:27:56.269 --> 00:28:03.980 over there or when it's inconvenient or there is conflict and you're just like beat 365 00:28:03.180 --> 00:28:07.819 down, like nless. You're bought into it, man, unless it's like 366 00:28:08.740 --> 00:28:15.049 that North Star out there, or like this is the reason why I'm waking 367 00:28:15.089 --> 00:28:19.930 up every day, like, unless you're tying it to like deep purpose and 368 00:28:21.130 --> 00:28:23.769 like this is why we exist in all of this, like you're going to 369 00:28:23.890 --> 00:28:29.319 easily sway away from those things in the hard times when they come, because 370 00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:33.359 they will. Sure, let's shift gears a little bit and talk about once 371 00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:38.200 once your team, and in your CEO, has decided that you're going to 372 00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:44.789 adopt this strategy, what has your involvement as a CEO look like as we've 373 00:28:44.789 --> 00:28:48.349 started to think through the category design process, because you haven't been on the 374 00:28:48.430 --> 00:28:51.430 sidelines. This is not something that you just kind of signed off on and 375 00:28:51.549 --> 00:28:55.069 said let me know when you guys are done. You've been right there with 376 00:28:55.269 --> 00:28:57.099 us working through all this. So to tell me a little bit more about 377 00:28:57.099 --> 00:29:03.819 that. Well, I've gotten a lot of homework thanks to you, welcome, 378 00:29:03.900 --> 00:29:10.730 which which is a good thing. But the process has been you know, 379 00:29:10.849 --> 00:29:17.849 we talked about this the details right like wrestling through both the WHO the 380 00:29:17.970 --> 00:29:21.849 best best fit customer is what is our point of view, and we're in 381 00:29:21.890 --> 00:29:25.920 the middle of the process right now, and so like bringing all of those 382 00:29:25.960 --> 00:29:32.079 things together has been it's been awesome because it puts you right in the middle 383 00:29:32.119 --> 00:29:38.470 of frontline people to marketing. It touches everything, and so it's a different 384 00:29:38.509 --> 00:29:48.630 approach than our management style has been in the concept of your bringing strategy through 385 00:29:48.829 --> 00:29:56.140 the frontline and hearing things you wouldn't necessarily here in a problem setting. So 386 00:29:56.380 --> 00:30:02.619 like typically you're just getting all the problems every day and in this you're taking 387 00:30:02.660 --> 00:30:07.289 strategy all the way through and non inspiring strategy, which is how I've kind 388 00:30:07.289 --> 00:30:11.890 of led in the past. Is is strategy is all about, you know, 389 00:30:11.970 --> 00:30:15.730 inspiring where we're going and what's the vision of the company and what we're 390 00:30:15.769 --> 00:30:22.759 doing. There's a piece of that, but bringing people into that process through 391 00:30:22.960 --> 00:30:26.559 all of the whether it's marketing, customer success, you know, sales, 392 00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:33.359 all of product, all of these things and bringing people along through this process 393 00:30:33.160 --> 00:30:38.190 has been a really cool thing to watch. We still got a lot of 394 00:30:38.309 --> 00:30:44.069 work to do, but it's a glueing together of things. It's the it's 395 00:30:44.109 --> 00:30:47.950 the glue that holding us together and bringing us together. I think is the 396 00:30:48.069 --> 00:30:51.339 exciting part of it. So's it. Give me one specific example of that 397 00:30:51.420 --> 00:30:55.180 you like. You mentioned customers success and working with that team. What's the 398 00:30:55.220 --> 00:30:57.460 way that you were able to interface with that team that was different from how 399 00:30:57.500 --> 00:31:00.299 you done things in the past? So, for instance, you know, 400 00:31:00.460 --> 00:31:07.289 we went through and you did the customer best fit and not best fit customers 401 00:31:07.329 --> 00:31:10.250 and you got the feedback from them. So I actually watched this through a 402 00:31:10.289 --> 00:31:15.329 video. I wasn't on the actual meeting, but was able to basically hear 403 00:31:15.490 --> 00:31:22.240 from them their perspective of our best fit customer, because I have my opinions 404 00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:26.519 and all the things that I've heard and all of that, but hearing just 405 00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:32.599 each individual through that, you know, forty five minute video of you asking 406 00:31:32.720 --> 00:31:41.869 questions about those two questions and the opposing pieces to that made me then go 407 00:31:41.230 --> 00:31:45.269 to a couple of them and be like tell me about what you mean about 408 00:31:45.710 --> 00:31:52.220 how you think older people aren't as good on video and then was able to 409 00:31:52.420 --> 00:31:59.019 get an interaction with, you know, that salesperson. This person actually was 410 00:31:59.099 --> 00:32:02.329 in sales and then he went to see us and was able to actually think 411 00:32:02.410 --> 00:32:07.609 about it in a different way of where it was like, that's interesting that 412 00:32:07.690 --> 00:32:12.809 it's either a perception issue by that person or we have a real problem and 413 00:32:12.890 --> 00:32:16.640 getting to the bottom of, you know, age or getting really to that 414 00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:25.200 best customer fit or opportunity for a market might even might even be there where, 415 00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:31.309 you know, people might not think older person that is not tech savvy 416 00:32:31.549 --> 00:32:36.150 isn't a good customer, and then you could look at it as an opportunity, 417 00:32:36.190 --> 00:32:40.230 as a way for us to actually meet that market demand and being able 418 00:32:40.230 --> 00:32:45.099 to make those decisions. So sure, it's Um so it's just it was 419 00:32:45.180 --> 00:32:52.180 just a great way to like have a different view then my one way view 420 00:32:52.299 --> 00:32:55.059 of harbor as this is who our customer is all of that and being able 421 00:32:55.180 --> 00:33:00.329 to mix that up from all different angles of both customer and through our teams, 422 00:33:00.890 --> 00:33:06.569 as a way to really solidify who the best customer fit is, because 423 00:33:06.609 --> 00:33:09.849 that's very hard for a company like ours. That in the way we've been 424 00:33:09.930 --> 00:33:13.799 built. Yeah, yeah, so as we've been thinking through, yeah, 425 00:33:13.839 --> 00:33:16.440 how to build that point of view and you know, what types of people 426 00:33:16.440 --> 00:33:21.599 are best going to respond to that message, based on the thousands of people 427 00:33:21.599 --> 00:33:24.319 who use the platforms in the software today, like you've been able to get 428 00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:29.549 that directly. I should point out we're not we're not having conversations to ask 429 00:33:29.589 --> 00:33:32.589 customers what they want or what the solution is. We're trying to understand, 430 00:33:34.230 --> 00:33:37.309 you know, what kind of people are responsive to the kinds of things we've 431 00:33:37.349 --> 00:33:40.740 already been doing so we can know, like, where to take that message 432 00:33:40.779 --> 00:33:45.900 elsewhere. And and you're getting instead of you thinking of that in the abstract 433 00:33:45.900 --> 00:33:50.579 or maybe something you did and two thousand and ten or two thousand and fifteen, 434 00:33:51.059 --> 00:33:54.460 you're getting that feedback directly from people who are talking with customers and it 435 00:33:54.539 --> 00:34:00.289 sounds like that's able to help you think through this whole category narrative at a 436 00:34:00.289 --> 00:34:05.809 much deeper level than if you hadn't had those conversations. Absolutely. Yeah, 437 00:34:05.970 --> 00:34:10.480 it's change the way I look at it and it's solidified what I think is 438 00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:15.079 been in our DNA from the beginning, because you see the patterns and then 439 00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:22.480 it just helps you narrowly focus where you should be going instead of a broad 440 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:27.469 at where you know, you get take in and all these directions and it 441 00:34:27.630 --> 00:34:32.630 just causes confusion through the organization, confusion on your messaging, confusion with your 442 00:34:32.710 --> 00:34:39.260 customers, confusion and product and when you can really narrowly focus those things, 443 00:34:39.460 --> 00:34:44.539 and this is like basic things that everybody here's and knows they should do, 444 00:34:45.380 --> 00:34:52.219 but an actual practice is probably the hardest thing to actually pull off and execution, 445 00:34:52.460 --> 00:34:57.010 and so the discipline of it is just been it's been great. Yeah, 446 00:34:57.250 --> 00:35:00.769 good. If we were to go back and go through this process again, 447 00:35:00.170 --> 00:35:02.929 what would you do differently or what would you have the our team do 448 00:35:04.050 --> 00:35:07.599 differently? That's a great question. I don't know if I'd necessarily do anything 449 00:35:08.119 --> 00:35:16.239 differently. It's having like being being handed another book to read, like literally 450 00:35:16.280 --> 00:35:20.400 every day somebody's like, you should read this book, you should read this 451 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:22.670 book, you should read the book you know and I read the book and 452 00:35:22.750 --> 00:35:27.789 I was like Ah, but you know, sometimes it doesn't connect with me 453 00:35:27.869 --> 00:35:32.429 or whatever when I read books. And the presentation that you gave to the 454 00:35:32.510 --> 00:35:38.940 team, giving that through the whole organization maybe first, and I know you 455 00:35:39.059 --> 00:35:44.139 did do a couple of teams, but like get the leadership team bought in. 456 00:35:44.380 --> 00:35:50.010 Way You did the presentation on the kind of case for category creation and 457 00:35:50.650 --> 00:35:54.329 the play bigger kind of framework and all of that was bringing that to maybe 458 00:35:54.409 --> 00:36:00.769 the broader team earlier in getting more buy in. I think through the whole 459 00:36:00.929 --> 00:36:05.119 team would have helped in those people, even at the higher levels of where 460 00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:08.599 they're you know, able to be like you know, this is another thing, 461 00:36:08.960 --> 00:36:14.280 or whatever. Sounds like. What you're saying is you can't really you 462 00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:17.239 can't go too far in terms of like trying to get that the leadership team 463 00:36:17.239 --> 00:36:21.429 on board before you bring this to the CEO. If you were to, 464 00:36:21.949 --> 00:36:23.309 in other words, if you were to air on one side of the other, 465 00:36:23.469 --> 00:36:28.349 like definitely are on the side of like getting having more conversations, getting 466 00:36:28.389 --> 00:36:30.630 more support, getting more buy in. Yep, you can't really do too 467 00:36:30.710 --> 00:36:35.380 much of that before you, you know, had that conversation which your CEO. 468 00:36:36.019 --> 00:36:38.699 Yeah, yeah, yeah, which is kind of it's a double edged 469 00:36:38.780 --> 00:36:43.820 sword. You got to kind of do both things, like all at once. 470 00:36:44.579 --> 00:36:49.530 It's a whole company things. Like way you do that is building it 471 00:36:49.730 --> 00:36:53.409 through the you know, the whole organization and this and kind of doing the 472 00:36:53.489 --> 00:36:58.050 same work with the CEO's and yeah, that's a good point, because it's 473 00:36:58.050 --> 00:37:00.170 not like you know everybody, but to see you is talking about it and 474 00:37:00.210 --> 00:37:04.920 then one day it's like surprised, we all came together and like this is 475 00:37:05.000 --> 00:37:07.960 something that we have to do, like it's this two parallel streams of work 476 00:37:08.159 --> 00:37:10.920 and then they have to converge at the end. Yep, yes, so 477 00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:15.110 I felt like it's gone off pretty well, you know, the way we've 478 00:37:15.190 --> 00:37:20.230 approached it and, you know, having somebody from the Appeel, like, 479 00:37:20.909 --> 00:37:23.789 not that you were from the outside, but you had just started with us. 480 00:37:23.829 --> 00:37:28.110 So, like, I think that was a huge thing and not a 481 00:37:28.150 --> 00:37:30.500 lot of people can do that, whether you're bringing a consultant to do it 482 00:37:30.780 --> 00:37:37.260 or somebody else. But like following the framework and building it out is, 483 00:37:37.420 --> 00:37:42.219 I think, really well thought out and I you know, there's not much 484 00:37:42.260 --> 00:37:45.329 I would change there, I don't think. Cool. Before we go any 485 00:37:45.369 --> 00:37:50.969 other advice you want to give to another CEO or someone in a similar position 486 00:37:51.010 --> 00:37:54.050 who's thinking about the strategy. You know, we've talked about this a lot. 487 00:37:54.409 --> 00:37:59.960 It is a whole, like you got to believe in it because it 488 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:04.800 is a whole thing that will touch you know, just even in our experience 489 00:38:04.840 --> 00:38:09.599 it's a work in progress and you got the naysayers and hey, what about 490 00:38:09.679 --> 00:38:13.829 this and what about that, and like how does it touch this and how 491 00:38:13.909 --> 00:38:16.110 does it affect that and all this. So like, yeah, I mean 492 00:38:16.190 --> 00:38:22.349 you got to be bought in. And then makes it sound like we've had 493 00:38:22.429 --> 00:38:25.949 a lot of people mad about this or whatever it. That's not the case. 494 00:38:27.110 --> 00:38:30.099 But, as everybody knows, like pushing something through, it touches every 495 00:38:30.179 --> 00:38:36.300 aspect of the business and so like it's going to take a whole a whole 496 00:38:36.420 --> 00:38:38.579 community of people to be able to push this thing through. So I would 497 00:38:38.579 --> 00:38:42.929 just say you got to be bought in a hundred percent and it can't be 498 00:38:43.289 --> 00:38:46.409 this side project like that. Marketing helps that. You're like Oh, yeah, 499 00:38:46.489 --> 00:38:50.289 bought into it, it's great, I'm fun with that. You know, 500 00:38:50.409 --> 00:38:55.320 we've I've done that before, and those have particularly failed to get the 501 00:38:55.440 --> 00:39:00.639 traction. Then youtube all right, good stuff. If appreciate all the advice 502 00:39:00.719 --> 00:39:04.920 you shared. This won't be the last of questions I have for you. 503 00:39:05.000 --> 00:39:07.719 Are the last discussion we have around category design, but yeah, appreciate everything 504 00:39:07.719 --> 00:39:10.590 that you've shared so far. If one of the one of our listeners, 505 00:39:10.630 --> 00:39:14.630 wants to get in touch with you and maybe ask a question about what you're 506 00:39:14.670 --> 00:39:16.670 up to, what's the best way for them to do that? Honor at 507 00:39:16.710 --> 00:39:23.579 bombomb conr got it all right, thanks, Connor. Yep. Okay. 508 00:39:23.739 --> 00:39:28.780 Well, that reps up this episode of the Category Creation Series. I hope 509 00:39:28.780 --> 00:39:31.500 you enjoyed it and I hope that this episode helped you in some small way 510 00:39:31.820 --> 00:39:35.619 to become a better marketer. Now, if you want to get in touch 511 00:39:35.619 --> 00:39:39.170 with me, you can just head to John Dot Marketing in your browser or, 512 00:39:39.289 --> 00:39:43.570 of course, you can find me on Linkedin. Thanks for listening. 513 00:39:43.730 --> 00:39:47.929 I'll see you next time. One of the things we've learned about podcast audience 514 00:39:49.010 --> 00:39:52.519 growth is that word of mouth works. It works really, really well actually. 515 00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:55.599 So if you love this show, it would be awesome if you texted 516 00:39:55.719 --> 00:40:00.039 a friend to tell them about it and if you send me a text with 517 00:40:00.119 --> 00:40:02.440 a screenshot of the text you sent to your friend, Metta, I know 518 00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:06.840 I'll send you a copy of my book, content based networking, how to 519 00:40:06.960 --> 00:40:09.510 instantly connect with anyone. You want to know my cell phone numbers. Four 520 00:40:09.510 --> 00:40:15.110 hundred seven, four nine hundred, three hundred and thirty two eight. Happy 521 00:40:15.190 --> texting.