Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:08.230 Welcome back to be tob growth. I'm looking lyles with sweet fish media. 2 00:00:08.269 --> 00:00:13.029 Today is another episode in our content based networking series where we talked to folks 3 00:00:13.070 --> 00:00:17.949 who are using their podcast or other content channels to not just do content marketing 4 00:00:17.989 --> 00:00:21.739 where you create content for your ideal buyers, but you created with them. 5 00:00:21.780 --> 00:00:26.140 I'm joined today by David Ledgerwood. He's the managing partner over at a zero. 6 00:00:26.539 --> 00:00:28.739 His Friends Call Them Ledge Ledge. How you doing today, man? 7 00:00:28.859 --> 00:00:31.539 It's good to be here, Logan, thanks for having me. Awesome. 8 00:00:31.859 --> 00:00:35.020 Well, Ledge, we have to know here at sweetfish there is a great 9 00:00:35.060 --> 00:00:37.689 debate. Team Coke, team Pepsi. Which one you on? Man, 10 00:00:37.890 --> 00:00:40.729 Oh man, I am going to get in trouble here. I'll tell you 11 00:00:40.770 --> 00:00:46.009 why. My wife works for Pepsico. So I'm a big I'm a big 12 00:00:46.049 --> 00:00:50.119 mountain do guy, you know, so I can roll that way. But 13 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:55.600 my coal up preference is the red man, actually coke zero. So I 14 00:00:55.759 --> 00:00:59.119 may get in trouble. Hopefully I'm on a lot of podcast and she doesn't 15 00:00:59.159 --> 00:01:02.640 listen to this one. I will make sure not to share her share the 16 00:01:02.759 --> 00:01:04.629 links. Unless you know, you and I get it odds at one point 17 00:01:04.670 --> 00:01:07.950 and then now I've got something over you know. Not good to know. 18 00:01:07.150 --> 00:01:11.750 Good, that's getting serious right there, right right. We didn't know it 19 00:01:11.870 --> 00:01:17.709 was getting so serious so quickly. I thought this was collaborative, collaborated networking 20 00:01:17.829 --> 00:01:21.500 content. Let's just yes, we were talking about content based networking, which 21 00:01:21.540 --> 00:01:25.379 is all about collaboration. Well, let's dive into that, man, because 22 00:01:25.500 --> 00:01:26.739 your story, when I heard it the other day, I was like man, 23 00:01:26.819 --> 00:01:30.659 this is such a good example of what we talked about in content based 24 00:01:30.739 --> 00:01:34.849 networking, where you create content not just for the audience, not just for 25 00:01:34.969 --> 00:01:38.049 the downloads, not just for the listens or the video plays, but you 26 00:01:38.170 --> 00:01:42.290 use it as a way to build genuine relationships with people who could buy from 27 00:01:42.290 --> 00:01:47.400 you, and you generate content along the way. I've got a linkedin post 28 00:01:47.480 --> 00:01:52.000 cooking that content based networking is greater than content marketing because you get all the 29 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:56.319 benefits of content marketing, but sales get something too. And so tell us 30 00:01:56.319 --> 00:01:59.599 a little bit about what was your story in content based networking, just kind 31 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:01.989 of lay the foundation before we get into what it generated, how you did 32 00:02:01.989 --> 00:02:07.709 it? What was the situation that led you to your content based networking strategy? 33 00:02:07.750 --> 00:02:12.909 Sure, yeah, so I've been VP of sales type of guy early 34 00:02:13.189 --> 00:02:20.099 on in several different startups and as I was running lots of sales calls, 35 00:02:20.139 --> 00:02:23.139 you know, I just got it. was more like I want to do 36 00:02:23.219 --> 00:02:25.659 a podcast because it was like my hobby. You know, it is an 37 00:02:25.740 --> 00:02:30.930 interesting side project. So, you know, I like talking to people. 38 00:02:30.969 --> 00:02:32.490 I was good at it. I was doing lots of sales calls every day 39 00:02:34.129 --> 00:02:37.129 and we thought, you know, well, a podcast kind of, you 40 00:02:37.210 --> 00:02:39.409 know, checks one of those marketing boxes, like we kind of should do 41 00:02:39.490 --> 00:02:43.969 it for the value of content marketing and inbound. You know, you just 42 00:02:44.050 --> 00:02:46.520 feel that you should have a podcast. I think a lot of people think 43 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:50.240 that it was a side project. Wasn't a strategy. You know, I 44 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:53.520 didn't know now then what I know now, and I think I would have 45 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:58.280 been more delivered at first. But my first twenty interviewer show or just me 46 00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:01.030 talking to a guest, somebody from my network, that I would just say 47 00:03:01.069 --> 00:03:04.590 hey, you know, I want to let's just riff, let's have a 48 00:03:04.629 --> 00:03:07.069 conversation. I'm going to record it. I don't even know what I'm going 49 00:03:07.110 --> 00:03:12.189 to do with this later. So I had no appreciation for the engine that 50 00:03:12.270 --> 00:03:16.300 we're going to talk about. The developed and in the value of it. 51 00:03:16.460 --> 00:03:20.460 So I can't say that I was brilliant and I stepped into it, you 52 00:03:20.539 --> 00:03:23.139 know, with with open eyes. I figured it out, as you guys 53 00:03:23.180 --> 00:03:28.449 did, maybe over time. Yeah, absolutely. So you know, if 54 00:03:28.490 --> 00:03:31.129 for anyone who hasn't kind of heard that story on sweetish's side, several years 55 00:03:31.169 --> 00:03:35.770 back we were not a podcast agency, we were a blog writing agency and 56 00:03:36.009 --> 00:03:39.169 we got one of our first big customers was was a church in the south, 57 00:03:39.210 --> 00:03:44.479 I think in the Houston area, and James R CEO had done some 58 00:03:44.599 --> 00:03:50.159 some podcasting with a friend before on some side projects and James hates cold calling 59 00:03:50.520 --> 00:03:53.560 and so he was like, well, what if I started a podcast and 60 00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:55.990 I invited our prospects to be on and boom, he got an eighty percent 61 00:03:57.069 --> 00:04:00.550 response rate. So that was kind of the Aha moment for James. Bad 62 00:04:00.629 --> 00:04:02.949 News was none of those churches had budget for the blog writing we wanted to 63 00:04:02.990 --> 00:04:05.469 do for them. So that's when we made the pivot. INT BE TO 64 00:04:05.509 --> 00:04:10.539 BE PODCASTING. But what was the scenario for you ledge? who were you 65 00:04:10.580 --> 00:04:13.819 guys targeting? What was kind of the the stage of the company? What 66 00:04:14.060 --> 00:04:16.620 what persona? How did you then decide, all right, we're going to 67 00:04:16.660 --> 00:04:19.579 start a podcast and we're going to interview, you know, this persona. 68 00:04:19.699 --> 00:04:23.620 What did that look like when you first got started? Yeah, yeah, 69 00:04:23.660 --> 00:04:27.689 it's a couple years into my tenure at the company. We had grown from 70 00:04:27.730 --> 00:04:31.370 the mid six figures to, I think just over about one and a half 71 00:04:31.449 --> 00:04:36.170 million run rate at that point. The particular company was in the software engineering 72 00:04:36.250 --> 00:04:44.560 staffing space. So it was like placing very high dollar elite software developers on 73 00:04:45.000 --> 00:04:47.800 contract position. So it was like a double side of market type of thing. 74 00:04:47.959 --> 00:04:51.240 Like think about like superpower up work but with, like, you know, 75 00:04:51.319 --> 00:04:55.790 a lot more at that time human touch. It was less Sassy and 76 00:04:56.110 --> 00:04:59.670 we so we got hired by cteos engineering leaders, you know, to place 77 00:04:59.790 --> 00:05:02.829 them with talent, because people wanted to build up their developer teams, and 78 00:05:03.069 --> 00:05:10.459 so that persona was the target for both selling and for the podcast. Those 79 00:05:10.459 --> 00:05:13.180 are the people that I wanted to talk to and I think we had the 80 00:05:13.259 --> 00:05:17.180 idea that I had to the developers. Did you? Did you go ledge 81 00:05:17.300 --> 00:05:20.850 to the developers in the talent pool, or did you go to the decision 82 00:05:20.889 --> 00:05:26.250 makers at the accounts that were hiring you guys for the placements, the CIO's 83 00:05:26.290 --> 00:05:31.689 and it leaders, the leaders yeah, so the target for the guests was 84 00:05:31.850 --> 00:05:38.079 the CTEO or the software engineering leader, not the developers. We thought about 85 00:05:38.079 --> 00:05:40.360 that, you know, and it would be cool to serve our community that 86 00:05:40.439 --> 00:05:43.600 way, but we couldn't draw as much of a line to what we believe 87 00:05:43.720 --> 00:05:48.439 would be the revenue channel. And part of our marketing strategy was as in 88 00:05:48.519 --> 00:05:53.870 order to be different, we had to be credible to engineering leaders. Like, 89 00:05:53.949 --> 00:06:00.110 from the standpoint of that we really know software engineering right. So when 90 00:06:00.149 --> 00:06:04.459 we targeted those folks, it was about having a very credible discussion about software 91 00:06:04.459 --> 00:06:10.660 engineering topics. And I come from a consulting background, you know, enterprise 92 00:06:10.699 --> 00:06:13.980 it like, I was able to, you know, talk about those things 93 00:06:13.980 --> 00:06:17.100 at that level. So I was a logical person to do that. But, 94 00:06:17.300 --> 00:06:19.730 you know, again, we thought about it more from the marketing Lens 95 00:06:19.769 --> 00:06:23.810 than we did from the sales lands. I just happened to be in that 96 00:06:23.930 --> 00:06:28.449 seat. Yeah, so that's really interesting because you, as the as the 97 00:06:28.569 --> 00:06:30.209 sales leader, was kind of like, all right, we don't have much 98 00:06:30.250 --> 00:06:35.199 going on from the marketing front because we're kind of earlier stage. So maybe 99 00:06:35.279 --> 00:06:39.439 doing a podcast would at least it'd be kind of easy. You know, 100 00:06:39.480 --> 00:06:42.160 quote unquote, easy because you know, we don't have to write stuff, 101 00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:46.360 we can just talk. People might say yes. When was that Uha moment 102 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:48.430 for you, like, okay, this is not just a content channel, 103 00:06:48.430 --> 00:06:53.949 but we should double down here, because I'm getting in front of CTEOS and 104 00:06:54.189 --> 00:06:58.750 and software engineering leaders who could buy from US and I'm getting to build a 105 00:06:58.790 --> 00:07:01.860 relationship with them while we're creating content. So it's not just kind of the 106 00:07:02.500 --> 00:07:05.620 long game. This can play the short game as well. When was that 107 00:07:05.819 --> 00:07:10.300 unlock for you? Was it after doing a few episodes or just noticing, 108 00:07:10.740 --> 00:07:13.939 heck man, a lot of people are saying yes and I'm getting in front 109 00:07:13.939 --> 00:07:17.810 of more potential customers. When did that kind of pivot for you to where 110 00:07:17.850 --> 00:07:21.930 you guys looked at hey, there's two benefits here. It was pretty quick 111 00:07:23.009 --> 00:07:26.170 and that it was. It was working because, you know, to me 112 00:07:26.290 --> 00:07:29.370 it was just another sales call, like that's what I was going to do 113 00:07:29.569 --> 00:07:32.040 anyway. You know, I'd asked them a bunch of questions about their business, 114 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:35.000 about them, about their expertise, and you know, I could be 115 00:07:35.199 --> 00:07:40.480 likable, I could relate like those were the the same things I was trying 116 00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:43.800 to create on a sales call. It was it was happening organically in these 117 00:07:44.509 --> 00:07:48.389 interviews and the pre impost I was getting to just tell them like about our 118 00:07:48.430 --> 00:07:51.550 business and you know. So I'd give a tiny little pitch just like hey, 119 00:07:51.589 --> 00:07:55.709 let me get you oriented to what we do so you can understand my 120 00:07:55.790 --> 00:07:59.420 perspective, you know, coming to it. So I think the ability of 121 00:07:59.459 --> 00:08:03.860 a salesperson is like we're already interviewers right. So it makes a lot of 122 00:08:03.980 --> 00:08:09.100 sets. You typically won't maybe see the salespeople doing the PODCASTS, but in 123 00:08:09.500 --> 00:08:13.769 this contact like that's all we do all day, like we interview people on 124 00:08:13.970 --> 00:08:18.730 calls. It just isn't being recorded. So it was this natural slide in. 125 00:08:18.850 --> 00:08:22.250 And then I don't know, I probably took I don't know, maybe 126 00:08:22.009 --> 00:08:26.399 twenty, thirty episodes and I made like a direct sale to a guest right 127 00:08:26.680 --> 00:08:31.920 after the show for like a sixfigure deal. And I was like Whoa, 128 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:35.159 like wait a second, you know, like usually that takes a month, 129 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:37.879 back and forth, proposals, whatever. I got the verbal right there, 130 00:08:37.960 --> 00:08:41.750 like after the show, and so that's where I started to say, I 131 00:08:41.830 --> 00:08:43.909 think this has legs. Why don't we go from like once a week to, 132 00:08:45.669 --> 00:08:48.710 you know, just me doing this all the time? And you know, 133 00:08:48.750 --> 00:08:52.230 we'll slide it in with sales calls. And so I did an interview 134 00:08:52.509 --> 00:08:56.019 or two every day and we ended up getting eighty to a hundred in the 135 00:08:56.059 --> 00:09:01.740 cooker and we released five days a week for over a year. And Yeah, 136 00:09:01.779 --> 00:09:07.500 we ended up doing like three hundredzero dollars of direct sales just like that. 137 00:09:07.740 --> 00:09:11.889 Like during the interviews. Another to fifty of you attributed that. We 138 00:09:11.929 --> 00:09:16.970 knew absolutely came from that podcast effort through the sales team. So it's no 139 00:09:18.009 --> 00:09:22.850 questions, like a ten to one investment return on that project. Man a 140 00:09:24.049 --> 00:09:28.360 x Roy tons of content coming out the other side and already proven oury. 141 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:33.399 So all the content then was just kind of Gravy, like we've already paid 142 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:37.000 this has already paid for itself. And you know so many folks are struggling 143 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:41.470 to produce more content and justify the spend, because it usually is the long 144 00:09:41.549 --> 00:09:45.909 term play, but in the short term. So if I'm telling it upright, 145 00:09:46.190 --> 00:09:48.429 in the short term, you guys basically had over half a million dollars 146 00:09:48.590 --> 00:09:54.419 in attributed revenue to this strategy, about three hundred thousand indirect attribution, which 147 00:09:54.460 --> 00:10:00.539 means deals with guests. Right. It would gether that happened post interview or 148 00:10:00.899 --> 00:10:03.580 couple weeks after or whatever? And then the secondary attribution. What were you 149 00:10:03.620 --> 00:10:09.850 guys doing there where you were doing some strategic follow up where you kind of 150 00:10:09.889 --> 00:10:13.610 have in your sales team say hey, we had your cteo on the podcast, 151 00:10:13.610 --> 00:10:16.210 I'd like to you know, talk to you. Sounds like from what 152 00:10:16.330 --> 00:10:18.690 I heard here, maybe using that interview, that hey, there's some trigger 153 00:10:18.690 --> 00:10:24.840 questions where we can legitimately know a little bit more to offer some value. 154 00:10:24.879 --> 00:10:28.799 I'd love to hear more about like the tactics there, because those results are 155 00:10:30.080 --> 00:10:33.639 phenomenal and I think a lot of people's heads are swimming with okay, that's 156 00:10:33.679 --> 00:10:35.350 really cool. How could we do that tactically? How do we make the 157 00:10:35.429 --> 00:10:41.149 turn so it doesn't feel Baetan switchy? How do we how do we tactically 158 00:10:41.190 --> 00:10:43.669 do that? So let's talk about the secondary attribution. Then I want to 159 00:10:43.710 --> 00:10:46.190 come back to the direct and making that turn with the guests where you've built 160 00:10:46.190 --> 00:10:50.259 a relationship. So what was the follow up with the sales team where there 161 00:10:50.299 --> 00:10:54.740 wasn't an immediate opportunity but the door was open to the relationship? Yeah, 162 00:10:54.740 --> 00:10:58.580 as we got smarter about this, I started working directly with the other sales 163 00:10:58.700 --> 00:11:03.409 team members and we would actually make target list like well, who, what 164 00:11:03.570 --> 00:11:07.409 companies? It was sort of like an ABM kind of strategy, right. 165 00:11:07.450 --> 00:11:11.370 So like what companies do we want to sell to? What's our target? 166 00:11:11.889 --> 00:11:15.210 And if we made that list, let me go find who's the CTEO, 167 00:11:15.370 --> 00:11:20.399 who's the VP of engineering? I'll invite them on like ahead of any efforts 168 00:11:20.440 --> 00:11:26.200 to directly try to sell to them. Then we would go in after that 169 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:31.080 interview had already published and we try to reach into the organization, maybe to 170 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:33.590 a different contact, because you want to you know, a complex sale, 171 00:11:33.590 --> 00:11:35.549 right, you want to have a bunch of contacts. You don't want to 172 00:11:35.549 --> 00:11:37.269 get caught where you only have one, you know, sort of you know 173 00:11:37.470 --> 00:11:41.070 corn contact and then they leave, because engineering leaders they leave all the time, 174 00:11:41.149 --> 00:11:45.549 right. So for us it was like it was really important that multiple 175 00:11:45.549 --> 00:11:48.539 touch points in the company. Then we used stuff from the interview to reach 176 00:11:48.539 --> 00:11:50.980 out to that person and say, Hey, I don't know, you know, 177 00:11:52.059 --> 00:11:54.379 I just learned about your company, or hey, was super cool when 178 00:11:56.139 --> 00:11:58.379 Joe CTO was on with Ledge. You know, hey, I don't know 179 00:11:58.419 --> 00:12:03.370 if you guys are I saw you posted some some jobs out for engineering roles. 180 00:12:03.690 --> 00:12:05.889 I don't know if you ever considered contract roles, you know, if 181 00:12:05.929 --> 00:12:09.809 to someone you want to talk about it just lent credibility because wall off, 182 00:12:09.850 --> 00:12:13.769 the CTEO, was on it, like my boss was on the show. 183 00:12:13.490 --> 00:12:18.639 These guys must be credible, right. So it it just added an air 184 00:12:18.799 --> 00:12:22.919 of authenticity and credibility to it. So that was one thing. We would 185 00:12:22.919 --> 00:12:28.960 do that account based approach. Now it also gave us a vehicle to you 186 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:31.789 know, we would post like our own house adds right audio ads on the 187 00:12:31.950 --> 00:12:37.230 thing. So it was powered by and we would have our own ads in 188 00:12:37.269 --> 00:12:39.470 there, you know, for pre post, roll, mid roll, and 189 00:12:39.590 --> 00:12:43.309 so we started to play with that. We'd have different promotions in there. 190 00:12:43.029 --> 00:12:48.460 That was really powerful. So it was just like you got to control your 191 00:12:48.899 --> 00:12:52.299 channel and I think if we were, when we were thoughtful about that. 192 00:12:52.500 --> 00:12:56.860 It was just different ways to create different relationships. And if sales needed a 193 00:12:56.899 --> 00:13:01.450 boost from somebody who was a guest, they'd even asked me and say I'm 194 00:13:01.450 --> 00:13:03.529 trying to get in touch with so and so. I know you interviewed their 195 00:13:03.570 --> 00:13:07.370 CTEO. You think you could give it a little boost, and so I 196 00:13:07.409 --> 00:13:11.450 would. Then I could send an email and say, hey, you know 197 00:13:11.570 --> 00:13:13.600 Logan, remember that interview? Man, that was a lot of fun. 198 00:13:13.639 --> 00:13:16.919 Hey, there's listen, there's a member of our team here. Let's trying 199 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:22.279 to contact you know, Susan, your VP of engineering. Anyway you could 200 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:26.200 help us hook that up? You know, I don't want to abuse our 201 00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:28.830 relationship. You know I don't want to be beating switchy. So I would 202 00:13:28.870 --> 00:13:31.029 like put that right out there, because that was answer your second questions, 203 00:13:31.110 --> 00:13:35.629 like how do you not be beating switch you? I'll just say I don't 204 00:13:35.669 --> 00:13:39.269 want it to seem that way, but I really think we can add you 205 00:13:39.350 --> 00:13:41.779 some value. Yeah, just call out, call out the elephant in the 206 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:46.019 room, right. And you know, I think for anybody WHO's hearing this 207 00:13:46.299 --> 00:13:48.340 is like, Oh, well, you just did you just did the podcast 208 00:13:48.419 --> 00:13:52.340 interview with their cteo to get in, and you know that feels kind of 209 00:13:52.740 --> 00:13:58.490 that feels to salesy for me. I mean think about folks that sell locally 210 00:13:58.690 --> 00:14:01.730 or you go to conferences in person. Why do you do that? Right, 211 00:14:01.850 --> 00:14:05.210 you go there to back when conferences where a thing, whether it's a 212 00:14:05.250 --> 00:14:09.919 local chamber of Commerce meet up or a big technology expo that happens once a 213 00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:15.360 year in Vegas. You go to rub shoulders and shake hands and get to 214 00:14:15.480 --> 00:14:20.840 know people in the context of just talking shop, whether that's in quality engineering 215 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:24.789 or, you know, hiring or marketing, whatever your niche is. You 216 00:14:24.909 --> 00:14:28.429 do that right. You take time to invest in the relationship. This is 217 00:14:28.549 --> 00:14:33.269 just another way to do that and to create content and to do it at 218 00:14:33.309 --> 00:14:35.110 scale, because you can do a heck of a lot more podcast episodes than 219 00:14:35.149 --> 00:14:41.059 you can travel to conferences. And plus they they meet so many people versus 220 00:14:41.220 --> 00:14:45.460 the one to one interaction of Ledge. I'm interviewing you, I'm shining the 221 00:14:45.500 --> 00:14:48.419 spotlight on your story, I'm letting you tell me about your successes. That 222 00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:52.090 feels good and that's a little bit more memorable than hey, we shook hands 223 00:14:52.129 --> 00:14:54.690 and met and said what do you do? What do you do at this 224 00:14:54.850 --> 00:14:58.929 conference? So I would just kind of draw that parallel to in person networking. 225 00:15:00.330 --> 00:15:03.169 We're just using content not as a Batan switch sales tactic, but as 226 00:15:03.210 --> 00:15:07.840 a way to build relationships into network better, just like any sort of networking. 227 00:15:09.200 --> 00:15:11.240 If you're just like hey, what do you do? Let me pitch 228 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:15.440 you like you can be annoying and you can be to sales in that environment 229 00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:16.759 and you can do it here too. You know, I like what you 230 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.279 said. They're like, Hey, I don't want to use our relationship. 231 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:22.509 If I'm if I'm stepping too far, just just tell me right, and 232 00:15:22.590 --> 00:15:26.909 then people will say oh no, no, of course not right. I've 233 00:15:26.029 --> 00:15:30.750 literally had, you know, situations where I had a follow up question with 234 00:15:30.789 --> 00:15:33.389 a guest on our show and I'm like, listen, I don't want this 235 00:15:33.509 --> 00:15:37.379 to feel like the timeshare presentation after a free lunch, but I just have 236 00:15:37.500 --> 00:15:39.299 to ask, like, have you guys thought about a podcast or is that 237 00:15:39.460 --> 00:15:43.539 way off your radar? And they might say no, we've thought about it 238 00:15:43.860 --> 00:15:46.779 and if there's not an immediate interest, I'm not going to like go into 239 00:15:46.779 --> 00:15:50.610 a fullblown sales pitch, but it can happen very naturally like you're talking about, 240 00:15:52.289 --> 00:15:56.450 either just post interview or with those follow up emails and stuff like that. 241 00:15:56.129 --> 00:16:00.129 I'm curious ledged last time you and I talked, you mentioned you guys 242 00:16:00.289 --> 00:16:03.850 started to compare the reply rate of Hey, do you want to be a 243 00:16:03.929 --> 00:16:07.639 podcast guest, versus your cold email outreach, and I'm really curious what you 244 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:12.279 guys saw there, because you know there are some personas where we know you 245 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:15.559 know sales leaders, marketing leaders. They get the value of personal brand. 246 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:18.590 They want to tell their story, they want to, you know, represent 247 00:16:18.710 --> 00:16:23.309 the company and get more name recognition. Not every persona is. Is that 248 00:16:23.509 --> 00:16:26.830 the case? And specifically with you guys talking to it leaders, who are 249 00:16:26.870 --> 00:16:30.309 maybe a little bit more introverted at times? I don't want to, you 250 00:16:30.389 --> 00:16:33.580 know, paint with too broad a brush, but what was the comparison for 251 00:16:33.620 --> 00:16:36.700 you guys, especially with this persona, because I think that would be interesting 252 00:16:36.779 --> 00:16:38.860 for folks to know to yeah, I mean the thing you should know about, 253 00:16:38.980 --> 00:16:42.220 you know, being any kind of technology leader on the software side is 254 00:16:42.340 --> 00:16:48.129 you are getting pitched by our recruiters and staffing agencies like a hundred times a 255 00:16:48.370 --> 00:16:53.330 week. I mean it's actually miserable and they have it relatively turned off. 256 00:16:55.049 --> 00:17:00.129 So outbound is tough like in that that industry. But we treated it like 257 00:17:00.169 --> 00:17:04.119 an outbound campaign. It's just and what anybody will tell you an outbound marketing 258 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:08.839 or outbound sales is the message can't be about you and your features or whatever. 259 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:11.160 You know, like they don't want to hear it. It's just tune 260 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:15.710 now. Well, we turned it into an outbound campaign, that it was 261 00:17:15.750 --> 00:17:22.630 about them, like I want to have your expertise on our show, you 262 00:17:22.750 --> 00:17:26.869 know, and it came out of this idea that I had. I had 263 00:17:26.950 --> 00:17:29.589 read. It's a common quote. You can google this. I don't know 264 00:17:29.589 --> 00:17:33.779 who it's attributed to, but if you want advice, ask for money. 265 00:17:33.940 --> 00:17:40.539 If you want money, ask for advice. So that's what I like to 266 00:17:40.579 --> 00:17:42.579 do right in this context, and it worked. You know, let's just 267 00:17:42.700 --> 00:17:45.609 treat people like experts. All I want is your advice, all I want 268 00:17:45.690 --> 00:17:48.769 is your feedback and I'm going to make you look like a boss. I'm 269 00:17:48.769 --> 00:17:52.250 going to publish this thing. You can share with your network, I can 270 00:17:52.289 --> 00:17:57.529 share it with mine. It's great, it's good for everybody, and by 271 00:17:57.640 --> 00:18:03.440 offering that, we had an outbound linkedin campaign. It's like everybody has linkedin 272 00:18:03.519 --> 00:18:07.079 fatigue now right you get like a hundred messages a day of people who want 273 00:18:07.119 --> 00:18:08.119 to be in your network. Whenever, the years ago, it wasn't that 274 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:11.869 way. So, you know, I'm not saying the channel was was perfect 275 00:18:11.910 --> 00:18:17.190 for today's audience, but we invited people on Linkedin and we said, I'm 276 00:18:17.190 --> 00:18:22.069 the host of this engineering leadership podcast, love to have you on what you 277 00:18:22.150 --> 00:18:23.549 know and we just have a dialog. There and we try to convert them 278 00:18:23.589 --> 00:18:29.619 over email to do the scheduling and it was yeah, it was like compared 279 00:18:29.700 --> 00:18:33.140 to outbound campaigns that we had done where like we just got ignored. I' 280 00:18:33.140 --> 00:18:37.059 mean it was like least five to one better response. So yeah, I 281 00:18:37.140 --> 00:18:41.410 mean it was it was huge for an outbound campaign where people we didn't know 282 00:18:42.250 --> 00:18:45.490 and we just offered them and opportunity to come on and be an expert. 283 00:18:45.529 --> 00:18:49.450 Obviously that gets like much, much easier as you start to be able to 284 00:18:49.490 --> 00:18:52.329 name drop, like as soon as I have people from Google, you know, 285 00:18:52.490 --> 00:18:56.839 our Microsoft and and stripe, you know, on my show. It 286 00:18:57.039 --> 00:19:00.440 was easy to be like Hey, do you want to hang out with people 287 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:04.039 like this? Initially it was a little bit more resistance. So and ultimately 288 00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:10.269 got to where people were calling us to get their client, like their PR 289 00:19:10.390 --> 00:19:14.789 clients and stuff on our show. So we got outreach from major brands who 290 00:19:14.789 --> 00:19:18.910 were wrapped by PR companies that wanted to get on my show. And so 291 00:19:18.950 --> 00:19:21.789 it kind of makes you laugh, right. I think I heard you say 292 00:19:21.869 --> 00:19:23.980 this on one of your interviews. Is like like all the sudden you're an 293 00:19:25.059 --> 00:19:27.700 expert, you know, you're a voice someone should listen to and you literally 294 00:19:27.700 --> 00:19:33.660 didn't say anything. You just get smart people on your show and asking questions 295 00:19:33.779 --> 00:19:37.539 and then you get that brand attribution and, you know, expert, authentic 296 00:19:38.289 --> 00:19:41.809 attribution against your own personal brand. So I mean that was a nice value 297 00:19:41.890 --> 00:19:47.329 too. Yeah, and I think that that's something that people often underestimate. 298 00:19:47.369 --> 00:19:49.529 Gary V has talked about this a lot. If you've ever heard him talk 299 00:19:49.609 --> 00:19:55.279 about the High School Party analogy. Right, when you're in high school and 300 00:19:55.319 --> 00:19:57.960 you're not the cool kid, if all of a sudden your parents are away 301 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:02.160 and you get to host the party, guess what, you're the cool kid 302 00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:04.000 right now. I'm not saying that was that was me in high school or 303 00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:07.069 that I was the cool kid, but I think all of us can recognize 304 00:20:07.109 --> 00:20:10.710 whether that was your high school experience or just from, you know, some 305 00:20:11.230 --> 00:20:15.349 s movie that takes us back or whatever, right, because you became you 306 00:20:15.470 --> 00:20:19.309 became the cool kid for engineering leaders, but you didn't do anything. You 307 00:20:19.470 --> 00:20:22.180 didn't I don't want to see. You didn't do anything, but you didn't 308 00:20:22.180 --> 00:20:26.700 like just hop on the mic and I'm going to talk about what engineering leaders 309 00:20:26.740 --> 00:20:30.059 need to know and I'm going to talk about the top trends for ctos. 310 00:20:30.339 --> 00:20:33.700 No, you just invited ctos on to talk about their expertise and you know, 311 00:20:33.779 --> 00:20:38.089 James Taka talks about it in his book content based networking. Oprah is 312 00:20:38.369 --> 00:20:44.329 one of the biggest, arguably household names ever and she had an amazing story 313 00:20:44.450 --> 00:20:47.849 to tell. But she didn't become a household name by telling her own story. 314 00:20:48.289 --> 00:20:51.880 She became a household name by saying tell me more about that, tell 315 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:53.720 me more. What was that like? You know, and then she created 316 00:20:53.799 --> 00:20:59.440 stories that either educated, entertained or inspired. And so in your own niche 317 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:06.190 you can kind of become the Oprah in engineering, in HR whatever the case 318 00:21:06.269 --> 00:21:08.549 is. And so not only do you have those relationships but it opens the 319 00:21:08.589 --> 00:21:12.630 door to other relationships. So a lot of people like to like to think 320 00:21:12.670 --> 00:21:15.910 that, hey, if I get a big name, if I get somebody 321 00:21:15.910 --> 00:21:18.220 from Google, or if I get Simon Senec or if I get Gary V 322 00:21:18.420 --> 00:21:22.779 on my podcast, that's going to help with the listener reach. I actually 323 00:21:22.859 --> 00:21:26.299 think the more direct impact is what you just said, because then you can 324 00:21:26.339 --> 00:21:29.259 name drop and it will hope you get more people that you really want to 325 00:21:29.299 --> 00:21:32.970 reach on as guests. It's not going to explode your audience, but it 326 00:21:33.210 --> 00:21:34.769 is valuable in a way that you might not think about it, and you 327 00:21:36.170 --> 00:21:38.769 said it right there. The other thing I wanted to touch on that you 328 00:21:38.849 --> 00:21:44.650 talked about their ledge is the the way that you guys positioned and named the 329 00:21:44.730 --> 00:21:48.680 show around engineering leadership. Now, you guys very well could have said, 330 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:53.400 you know, this is about it staffing, or it's engineering staffing or finding 331 00:21:53.440 --> 00:21:57.480 the right talent, and that would be branding the show around your expertise. 332 00:21:59.000 --> 00:22:03.549 And most people know, like don't go totally inward in like name the show 333 00:22:03.549 --> 00:22:06.670 after your company, but they only go one layer away. They talk about 334 00:22:06.710 --> 00:22:10.990 their expertise because they want to do, you know, typical okay content marketing. 335 00:22:11.390 --> 00:22:14.470 We say go one layer away, and I hear it in your story. 336 00:22:14.589 --> 00:22:18.779 You guys went, what is our prospects expertise and let's brand the show 337 00:22:18.819 --> 00:22:22.140 around that. Because if you talk about it staffing and invite them to be 338 00:22:22.259 --> 00:22:26.980 on there, like well, our staffing and hiring situations a mess. So 339 00:22:26.180 --> 00:22:29.700 they're actually the person you want to talk to, but they don't want to 340 00:22:29.740 --> 00:22:33.329 come on your show because that's not their area of expertise. That's probably if 341 00:22:33.369 --> 00:22:36.650 you go one layer away from yourself, it actually comes back and benefits you. 342 00:22:36.849 --> 00:22:41.369 Yeah, I think that's right. We wanted to have a seat at 343 00:22:41.369 --> 00:22:45.640 the table with that conversation. So you know, it was it was the 344 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:49.799 thought process of, like, we want to be known for we are not 345 00:22:51.079 --> 00:22:56.200 currently known for. So let's aspire, right with our our brand around this 346 00:22:56.480 --> 00:23:00.950 thing, to push ourselves into that direction. So I think that was the 347 00:23:00.829 --> 00:23:06.190 white board conversation about it. And there are other strategies to so add one 348 00:23:06.230 --> 00:23:11.750 zero. We're working on launching a podcast now. That is really more about 349 00:23:12.539 --> 00:23:18.740 how do we develop our future clients? So providing educational content for people that 350 00:23:18.779 --> 00:23:22.660 are not yet ready to pay us for what we do. They're not big 351 00:23:22.700 --> 00:23:26.529 enough, right. So I was interested in thinking about, like how could 352 00:23:26.529 --> 00:23:33.490 we turn it into an educational asset that would build fans early so that when 353 00:23:33.529 --> 00:23:37.450 it was time they remembered that, hey, there's this company that provided us 354 00:23:37.450 --> 00:23:42.759 a lot of value even when they couldn't pay for what we provide. Right. 355 00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:47.839 So I think there's lots of strategies about how and where do I want 356 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:51.720 to give value two people and I of course, it all pays back. 357 00:23:51.920 --> 00:23:56.269 So you know, they give it away. Methodology and culture for content, 358 00:23:56.509 --> 00:23:59.950 I think is becoming more in the in the forefront but you know, even 359 00:24:00.190 --> 00:24:03.589 to three years ago everything was gated and you know I won't give you a 360 00:24:03.630 --> 00:24:06.230 white paper unless you give me an email address, and then we now know 361 00:24:06.430 --> 00:24:11.380 that that is saturated and less effective. So to whom do I want to 362 00:24:11.420 --> 00:24:17.019 give value to benefit the future going concern of my business? You kind of 363 00:24:17.019 --> 00:24:19.579 ask yourself that question. I think that's the strategy for where you should have 364 00:24:19.660 --> 00:24:25.369 your conversations and that points out. You know what I talked about a lot. 365 00:24:25.450 --> 00:24:27.289 It's the reason my brothers a better golfer than me. He has a 366 00:24:27.329 --> 00:24:30.809 good long game and a good short game. I cannot play golf for two 367 00:24:30.809 --> 00:24:33.450 years and I can, you know, hit it decently, maybe in the 368 00:24:33.490 --> 00:24:36.970 fairway, maybe not, but like I can hit it down there, but 369 00:24:37.089 --> 00:24:40.160 my short game is ferrendous. So you and the reason I tell that story 370 00:24:40.279 --> 00:24:42.759 is you need both. So you're talking about the long game and content marketing, 371 00:24:44.200 --> 00:24:47.519 but if you're doing content based networking, you get that. You you 372 00:24:47.799 --> 00:24:52.000 create value for people with the content that could eventually buy from you. But 373 00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:56.150 in the short term you're also building relationships and adding value to the guest. 374 00:24:56.549 --> 00:25:00.190 Because we've had the same thing. We've had people on our show who have 375 00:25:00.309 --> 00:25:03.390 been guests who learned about us by the invite to be a guest. They 376 00:25:03.390 --> 00:25:07.579 had never listened to be to be growth. But we struck up a conversation. 377 00:25:07.180 --> 00:25:11.140 Did the interview developed a relationship? Not every time is it. Oh, 378 00:25:11.259 --> 00:25:15.180 they're just like chomping at the bit to ask me about our services. 379 00:25:15.660 --> 00:25:18.380 But it opens the door and a lot of people don't think about you're adding 380 00:25:18.420 --> 00:25:23.289 value to the guest and the audience. It's not either or, it's yes 381 00:25:23.450 --> 00:25:26.809 and, and I love that from your story. Ledge, for anybody out 382 00:25:26.849 --> 00:25:30.690 there thinking about this in a new way, whether it's a podcast or a 383 00:25:30.809 --> 00:25:34.569 linkedin live series or a youtube channel or a blog series, and they want 384 00:25:34.609 --> 00:25:38.559 to do content based networking again, where they're not just doing content marketing, 385 00:25:38.640 --> 00:25:44.559 creating content for their ideal buyer, they're creating content with them. Is there 386 00:25:44.599 --> 00:25:47.839 any piece of advice? You know, things that you wish you had known 387 00:25:47.839 --> 00:25:52.269 about what you need, how to get started, how to run the outreach 388 00:25:52.269 --> 00:25:57.029 effectively, any anything like that as parting words of wisdom for others thinking about 389 00:25:57.029 --> 00:26:00.789 this strategy in their own context today. Ledge, sure, sure, well, 390 00:26:00.910 --> 00:26:04.460 you know wisdom is just I made the mistake more than you did. 391 00:26:04.539 --> 00:26:08.740 Right, so you know I think I did not appreciate how much labor there 392 00:26:08.859 --> 00:26:12.700 was involved and how much work it took to do all the things. You 393 00:26:12.779 --> 00:26:18.539 know, sort of the editing production. You know the time necessary, you 394 00:26:18.609 --> 00:26:22.809 know all the stuff. Social links, show notes, getting the full benefit 395 00:26:22.849 --> 00:26:26.450 out of it. You can quickly get buried in the details of that and 396 00:26:26.529 --> 00:26:29.690 that's where an agency like you guys would be, you know, really helpful, 397 00:26:29.690 --> 00:26:32.450 because all I want to do right as a someone in my seat, 398 00:26:32.450 --> 00:26:37.279 I want to execute that interview and to some party, either internally or externally, 399 00:26:37.319 --> 00:26:41.319 I want to I want to literally hand over that file. You know, 400 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:44.880 here's the video, here's the audio. I don't want to do anything 401 00:26:44.880 --> 00:26:48.869 else. Make this into stuff, and I even encourage people to. You're 402 00:26:48.869 --> 00:26:51.829 absolutely right, like it can be live series on Linkedin, it can be 403 00:26:51.950 --> 00:26:55.910 youtube, could do whatever. And if you start with video, then you 404 00:26:55.990 --> 00:27:00.190 automatically have audio. You automatically have half hour and hour of of text that 405 00:27:00.309 --> 00:27:04.619 can be transcribed out of that, and you're looking at like an hour of 406 00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:10.420 audio. Could be several really nice blog posts. So, you know, 407 00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:11.900 get an editor to work on that stuff for you. You got all your 408 00:27:11.940 --> 00:27:15.250 linkedin quotes you could ever want. You can make some graphics out of it. 409 00:27:15.450 --> 00:27:19.690 So you know, work through that, that whole chain. Appreciate that 410 00:27:21.049 --> 00:27:26.769 it's a content making machine that actually is achieving your networking. I mean, 411 00:27:26.809 --> 00:27:30.680 how many times have you sat and had like an amazing conversation with somebody? 412 00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:33.920 Used to be over coffee, now it's over zoom you, like, dude, 413 00:27:33.960 --> 00:27:37.599 I wish we recorded that, like that's what this conversation is every time. 414 00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:41.440 So you are recording and and it's awesome and if it sucks and throw 415 00:27:41.480 --> 00:27:45.269 it out. You know, that's okay too. So I think have a 416 00:27:45.470 --> 00:27:51.190 have a recording disposition and get used to doing that. Get some good equipment, 417 00:27:51.230 --> 00:27:52.109 a little good set up, you know. I mean I'm in my 418 00:27:52.269 --> 00:27:56.269 house. It's a disaster, like the kids toys are behind me, but 419 00:27:56.470 --> 00:27:59.500 you can't tell because I at least just bought like a three dollar curtain, 420 00:27:59.539 --> 00:28:03.339 right, and I think that's important. Yeah, yeah, but just start, 421 00:28:03.460 --> 00:28:07.579 you know, like just just record like that. That's the biggest thing. 422 00:28:07.619 --> 00:28:10.220 People just sit around and like worry about all the details of like I 423 00:28:10.299 --> 00:28:14.329 don't have an audience or whatever. Like content is king. Just you've got 424 00:28:14.450 --> 00:28:17.930 to do it and and I encourage you know, have have some budget and 425 00:28:17.970 --> 00:28:21.089 work with a partner to get, you know, Max distribution out of the 426 00:28:21.849 --> 00:28:23.529 yeah, well, I love what you're talking about there and thank you for 427 00:28:23.650 --> 00:28:26.559 that plug. I promise you everybody. I did not pay ledge for that 428 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.640 little plug of sweet fish there, but that is really where we help. 429 00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:33.240 But you make a really great point. Even if the if you have a 430 00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:40.079 recording disposition, then you can still have the networking benefit if it turns into 431 00:28:40.119 --> 00:28:42.109 content, even if you don't, you know, have the budget to repurpose 432 00:28:42.150 --> 00:28:45.630 it and all the ways that you could, or you don't have the budget 433 00:28:45.670 --> 00:28:48.190 to hire an agency like sweet fish or or even, you know, a 434 00:28:48.470 --> 00:28:53.349 conglomerate of contractors on five or whatever it is, you still have that and 435 00:28:53.470 --> 00:28:59.579 you could store up this stock pile right and so there's there's ways to get 436 00:28:59.579 --> 00:29:03.339 started without. Oh No, we need to map out our content calendar for 437 00:29:03.420 --> 00:29:07.619 a year and we need to have a tenzeroll podcast studio. You don't need 438 00:29:07.779 --> 00:29:11.569 that. I'm telling a lot of our potential customers like just run some outreach, 439 00:29:11.930 --> 00:29:15.130 hop on zoom and record and one, see how many people say yes 440 00:29:15.609 --> 00:29:19.809 to kind of practice your interviewing skills and you're going to get some benefit from 441 00:29:19.890 --> 00:29:25.160 networking, even if it doesn't turn into the most amazing podcast to ever. 442 00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:29.400 You don't even need our help to get started there. So I like what 443 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:32.200 you're talking about. Their legend. I think you know, I've lived it 444 00:29:32.359 --> 00:29:34.559 myself. I jumped into hosting this show, a daily show for be tob 445 00:29:34.680 --> 00:29:38.710 marketers, and I'm you know, I was a decade into my sales career. 446 00:29:40.029 --> 00:29:42.269 WHO's a salesperson who knows enough about marketing to be dangerous, to be 447 00:29:42.309 --> 00:29:45.470 quite frank. So you can do it, you can get started. You 448 00:29:45.990 --> 00:29:51.349 if you're just curious and you kind of act like Oprah and just say tell 449 00:29:51.390 --> 00:29:53.740 me more. What was that like? Learn to ask simple questions that open 450 00:29:53.819 --> 00:29:57.339 people up. They're going to feel great and if you're strategic about who your 451 00:29:57.339 --> 00:30:00.220 guests are, making them feel great is going to lead back to benefit to 452 00:30:00.259 --> 00:30:03.460 you and it's going to benefit your audience at the same time. Just don't 453 00:30:03.460 --> 00:30:08.849 skip the guest relationships that you can generate with any sort of content collaboration ledge. 454 00:30:08.890 --> 00:30:11.650 This has been fantastic. Man. If anybody listening to this is now 455 00:30:11.690 --> 00:30:15.490 a fast friend of yours, just like me, what's the best way for 456 00:30:15.609 --> 00:30:18.730 them to reach out and stay in touch with you? Yeah, David Ledger 457 00:30:18.849 --> 00:30:22.240 Wood says, ledge in the middle on Linkedin. I use linked in for 458 00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:23.599 everything, so you should find me there. We post a lot of great 459 00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:27.839 content. I do this strategy, videos, articles, whatever. So you 460 00:30:27.960 --> 00:30:33.319 know our business is Addero, add numeral one, ze ore O dot Coo. 461 00:30:34.559 --> 00:30:40.349 We are looking to work with BTB services companies that have a little tech 462 00:30:40.470 --> 00:30:45.109 flare and founders have gotten them to maybe that middle six figure type of revenue. 463 00:30:45.869 --> 00:30:49.740 We work with those companies to build sales and revenue channels to build them 464 00:30:49.779 --> 00:30:55.180 up to that middle seven figure. So if you are at five hundredzero you 465 00:30:55.220 --> 00:30:57.500 want to be five million, give us a shout. That's what we do. 466 00:30:59.460 --> 00:31:02.819 Awesome and and I highly encourage people to follow you on Linkedin. I've 467 00:31:02.859 --> 00:31:06.849 seen you more in my feed since we've recently connected and are really appreciate you 468 00:31:06.930 --> 00:31:11.210 kind of unpacking your own story of content based networking with the podcast you are 469 00:31:11.210 --> 00:31:12.890 a host of a while back. Has Been a great conversation, man. 470 00:31:14.250 --> 00:31:21.559 Hope you have a fantastic weekend. Thanks for having me on Youtube. Gary 471 00:31:21.559 --> 00:31:26.279 v says it all the time and we agree. Every company should think of 472 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:30.119 themselves as a media company first, then whatever it is they actually do. 473 00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:34.109 If you know this is true, but your team is already maxed out and 474 00:31:34.269 --> 00:31:38.190 you can't produce any more content in house, we can help. We produce 475 00:31:38.309 --> 00:31:42.309 podcast for some of the most innovative bb brands in the world and we also 476 00:31:42.390 --> 00:31:47.579 help them turn the content from the podcast in the blog posts, micro videos 477 00:31:47.660 --> 00:31:49.980 and slide decks that work really well on linked in. If you want to 478 00:31:49.980 --> 00:31:56.819 learn more, go to sweet fish Mediacom launch or email logan at sweetphish Mediacom. 479 -->
