#CEO 5: The CEO’s Journey — You Don’t Have to Travel Alone w/ Bouzha Cookman

WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.280 --> 00:00:09.310 As your company grows in scales, you have to make some hard decisions about 2 00:00:09.669 --> 00:00:12.710 who's going to be on the team, and that founding team that you love 3 00:00:12.949 --> 00:00:17.949 may not be the right one to take to the next level. We're back 4 00:00:18.070 --> 00:00:21.660 for another episode of the CEO Series on the BB growth show. I'm your 5 00:00:21.739 --> 00:00:25.699 host, John Belazier, editor of the CEO Playbook and online publication full of 6 00:00:25.780 --> 00:00:30.780 stories from real CEOS and practical sage advice for founders and CEOS of high growth 7 00:00:30.780 --> 00:00:34.979 companies. Today we'll be talking about CEO peer groups. In episode one of 8 00:00:35.060 --> 00:00:38.289 the series, if you recall, I said if you really want to become 9 00:00:38.329 --> 00:00:42.289 a great CEO or bet of CEO, you've got to join a peer group. 10 00:00:42.289 --> 00:00:45.770 I let me explain why. About eight years ago, I boarded a 11 00:00:45.810 --> 00:00:49.570 flight from JFK to make my way to an island about thirty miles south of 12 00:00:49.770 --> 00:00:53.600 Cape Cod Massachusetts. It was a welcome break. I was attending a small 13 00:00:53.600 --> 00:00:58.880 annual invitation only gathering called the Nantucket conference. The name was fitting because the 14 00:00:59.000 --> 00:01:03.359 island home of Moby Dick started with a partnership of thirty entrepreneurs. It was 15 00:01:03.439 --> 00:01:06.670 my fifth anniversary at the helm of an insure tech company I was running at 16 00:01:06.709 --> 00:01:10.790 the time and I wanted to expose myself to other exciting happenings in the technology 17 00:01:10.790 --> 00:01:14.870 industry. I was also looking to rope shoulders when entrepreneurs in the Boston texting 18 00:01:15.230 --> 00:01:18.939 the conference was absolutely amazing, but what happened at the end of the conference 19 00:01:18.980 --> 00:01:21.939 is what I want to talk about. Just before I left, I met 20 00:01:22.060 --> 00:01:26.180 someone who would introduce me to a community that played an influential role in my 21 00:01:26.299 --> 00:01:30.019 success as CEO. I didn't know this at the time, but leaders of 22 00:01:30.099 --> 00:01:34.890 companies of all sizes get together cordly and they share their tough challenges in this 23 00:01:34.170 --> 00:01:41.049 very safe environment and they get to sound off ideas against experience CEOS peers and 24 00:01:41.129 --> 00:01:44.650 their groups, and they also get sound advice from their fellow CEOS. So 25 00:01:44.769 --> 00:01:48.840 joining this type of form was probably one of the best decisions I've ever made 26 00:01:48.879 --> 00:01:52.079 as a CEO. I finally had a place where I could work through some 27 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:56.719 real challenges in my business and personal life. I could speak freely and vent 28 00:01:56.920 --> 00:02:00.359 when I needed to. So for this episode I am joined by my close 29 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:05.269 friend and founder of that very forum, Bougia Cookman. Booga is the managing 30 00:02:05.349 --> 00:02:09.870 partner of Catlin and Cookman group, whose services are tailored really specifically for CEOS 31 00:02:09.909 --> 00:02:15.669 of investor back technology companies. Over the past twenty plus years she has worked 32 00:02:15.710 --> 00:02:20.139 with over a hundred plus CEOS and her companies who have participated in the high 33 00:02:20.139 --> 00:02:25.699 grold CEO Forum have delivered over ten billion plus in enterprise value through MNA and 34 00:02:25.979 --> 00:02:30.569 IPOS. Many of them participated in the high grold CEO Forum from start up 35 00:02:30.610 --> 00:02:36.009 all the way through to IPO, and many continue to participate in the forum 36 00:02:36.370 --> 00:02:40.289 even after reaching these successful levels. The company's primary focus is on the CEO 37 00:02:40.370 --> 00:02:45.719 role and how the CEO must change and adapt as companies grow. She is 38 00:02:45.840 --> 00:02:51.280 incredibly passionate about helping the CEO CEOS who want to build great growth companies and 39 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:55.520 she finds great satisfaction and helping play some role or some part in the positive 40 00:02:55.520 --> 00:03:00.349 impact these businesses and their success have on entire ecosystems, on employees, customers, 41 00:03:00.389 --> 00:03:05.509 their families and communities. So I invited Bouga to share insights on her 42 00:03:05.590 --> 00:03:09.110 form members and how they're dealing with the pandemic. We talk about her framework 43 00:03:09.189 --> 00:03:14.460 on how the CEO role changes as companies go through predictable stages of growth. 44 00:03:14.620 --> 00:03:17.099 I really enjoyed the conversation and I know you will too. You learn about 45 00:03:17.139 --> 00:03:22.539 some fascinating secrets about the CEO role that you don't want to miss. Okay, 46 00:03:22.620 --> 00:03:25.819 let's get into it. POSIA, welcome to the show. Thank you, 47 00:03:25.819 --> 00:03:29.530 John. It's great to be here. Looking forward to it. We 48 00:03:29.689 --> 00:03:32.370 like to talk to you about today. We're recording this when the world is 49 00:03:32.449 --> 00:03:36.969 falling apart. There's a glottal pandemic upon us, so we're obviously going to 50 00:03:37.009 --> 00:03:42.039 spend some time talking about the challenges that some of your CEO clients and colleagues 51 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:45.879 and friends are experiencing right now, and we'll talk about the CEO Journey, 52 00:03:45.919 --> 00:03:50.000 which is really the subject of this episode. But before we get into it, 53 00:03:50.039 --> 00:03:53.240 I'd love to have our listeners learn more about you. How did you 54 00:03:53.800 --> 00:03:58.270 become who you are? And you run a CEO Forum where you get some 55 00:03:58.349 --> 00:04:02.389 of the most amazing CEOS together to talk about some of their challenges. How 56 00:04:02.430 --> 00:04:05.750 did you come to do that? Yes, it's been quite a journey. 57 00:04:05.909 --> 00:04:11.219 I've been working with high growth CEOS for the last twenty years and prior to 58 00:04:11.379 --> 00:04:15.019 that was actually an executive at a high tech startup company that went public, 59 00:04:15.300 --> 00:04:20.339 and the reason I do this work now, which is working with with CEOS 60 00:04:20.379 --> 00:04:26.089 of investor back company is all in tech, is to help them grow their 61 00:04:26.129 --> 00:04:30.329 companies in the wonderful way the company I was with, it was avid technology, 62 00:04:30.850 --> 00:04:34.569 and also avoid some of the pitfalls that happened at Avid, especially at 63 00:04:34.610 --> 00:04:41.879 the end after the IPO, the company hit some turbulence and CEO was fired 64 00:04:42.160 --> 00:04:46.560 and it was broke my heart, frankly, and I decided to change my 65 00:04:46.720 --> 00:04:51.079 career trajectory and, after going back to business school, looked for somebody who 66 00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:57.189 was working with CEOS of startups and found my partner, Catherine Catlan, and 67 00:04:57.550 --> 00:05:01.509 twenty years ago, joined her and we've been been working ever since, both 68 00:05:01.550 --> 00:05:09.540 through the Highgro CEO Forums and consulting practice and coaching. So it's really it's 69 00:05:09.660 --> 00:05:15.899 really out of wanting to help companies be great and help the CEOS get their 70 00:05:15.899 --> 00:05:17.740 companies there. And John, I think the reason is, and you know 71 00:05:17.939 --> 00:05:23.529 this, when you grow a great company the impact is not just on the 72 00:05:23.610 --> 00:05:27.449 company, it's the whole ecosystem, right. It's the customers, it's the 73 00:05:27.529 --> 00:05:31.050 employees, it's employees families, it's a community and I think we're seeing that 74 00:05:31.170 --> 00:05:35.680 right now with this pandemic how tightly linked we all really are. Right for 75 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:40.560 sure, for the listeners benefit, could you tell us what was avid and 76 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:45.399 when he sat with there? Were sure so. So avid avid was a 77 00:05:45.480 --> 00:05:49.550 company that was founded in the late S and was in the film and Video 78 00:05:49.949 --> 00:05:54.189 Market Place. It still exists today. It's still public and traded company today. 79 00:05:54.389 --> 00:05:57.629 I was out on the West Coast at the time hired to run sales. 80 00:05:57.910 --> 00:06:01.310 So we're really the company really revolutionize the way film and video editing is 81 00:06:01.389 --> 00:06:05.579 done. It was, it's not, moving from linear to nonlinear digital. 82 00:06:05.620 --> 00:06:10.660 It's hard to imagine today, but at that time everything was done on tape 83 00:06:10.740 --> 00:06:14.500 or film and it was quite a wonderful journey. And then I came back 84 00:06:14.620 --> 00:06:19.009 east to work at corporate headquarters, where I ran product marketing, business development, 85 00:06:19.370 --> 00:06:23.569 etc. And I claim to fame is that one of the products want 86 00:06:23.569 --> 00:06:26.730 to Technical Academy Award for film editing. So that was a lot of fun. 87 00:06:28.009 --> 00:06:30.449 Have Academy Award. That's cool. I do not that the engineering team. 88 00:06:30.649 --> 00:06:33.959 Engineering team, okay, I did have any. Rather think I have 89 00:06:34.040 --> 00:06:40.360 an emmy. All right. Right. So that was a wonderful experience and 90 00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:45.439 really I fell in love with technology and startups and that whole world and it 91 00:06:45.519 --> 00:06:49.069 really broke my heart when the company went through the downturn and I just decided 92 00:06:49.149 --> 00:06:55.350 that I really wanted to figure out how to help other CEOS grow great companies 93 00:06:55.430 --> 00:06:59.310 and avoid what happened at Abbott. Got It. Who would you say you're 94 00:06:59.310 --> 00:07:02.420 proud of the most? Over the years you've been to quietly supporting CEOS for 95 00:07:02.899 --> 00:07:08.459 yeah, many of the top technology companies in Boston and beyond. Who would 96 00:07:08.459 --> 00:07:12.899 you say you're most proud of? Well, what I love about the the 97 00:07:12.899 --> 00:07:19.009 high grows CEO Forum is that we people who join our our CEOS who really 98 00:07:19.129 --> 00:07:26.250 want to learn from each other, listen and contribute and they're great team members 99 00:07:26.689 --> 00:07:30.319 and I'm just really proud that I got an operator and I have an opportunity 100 00:07:30.360 --> 00:07:34.399 to work with people like that. They're making a difference, they make hard 101 00:07:34.480 --> 00:07:42.879 decisions, they're compassionate and it's always great when there's actual data, I mean 102 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:46.470 where we can look back and say, well, our CEOS of generated almost 103 00:07:46.550 --> 00:07:51.990 ten billion dollars in MNA or from Ipos over the years working with them. 104 00:07:53.589 --> 00:07:57.310 That's that's great to be able to say. There are others that don't have 105 00:07:57.430 --> 00:08:01.459 that same kind of success, but of still run great companies and and done 106 00:08:01.540 --> 00:08:05.500 wonderful things. So I'm most proud, I think, of having the opportunity 107 00:08:05.779 --> 00:08:09.699 to work with them on a continuing basis. You know one thing I've enjoyed? 108 00:08:09.019 --> 00:08:13.810 I've been a member of your forum and you're right, it's a group 109 00:08:13.850 --> 00:08:20.730 of some amazing CEOS. What I enjoy the most is how your forum creates 110 00:08:20.730 --> 00:08:24.730 an environment whereby you develop a community, not just a group of professionals sort 111 00:08:24.769 --> 00:08:28.480 of lamenting about their challenges, but people get to connect to each other and 112 00:08:28.600 --> 00:08:33.279 become longtime friends. I mean some of my closest friends that have been developed 113 00:08:33.320 --> 00:08:35.720 in in the last decade or so really came from the forum and we call 114 00:08:35.840 --> 00:08:39.759 each other all the time and we've been talking to each other during these tough 115 00:08:39.799 --> 00:08:43.629 times and it's just very gratifying to have those relationships still be intact even though 116 00:08:43.870 --> 00:08:48.509 we're now in the forum together. Right. Well, what do you think? 117 00:08:48.549 --> 00:08:52.070 I think a lot of it has to do with learning by fire together 118 00:08:52.429 --> 00:08:56.659 coming and we have a as you know, a very strong confidentiality rule that 119 00:08:58.019 --> 00:09:01.899 what happens in the forum stays in the forum, and that's really critical. 120 00:09:01.139 --> 00:09:07.139 We also make sure that, for am members are running similar companies in terms 121 00:09:07.179 --> 00:09:13.129 of size and stage, so that you're sharing common issues and problems. But 122 00:09:13.169 --> 00:09:16.210 I think, I think one of the biggest things is being able to share 123 00:09:16.289 --> 00:09:20.769 the unvarnished truth about what you really feel and what you're really worried about, 124 00:09:20.970 --> 00:09:24.639 and those are things that typically you don't have anywhere else to share them because 125 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:28.919 it is lonely. I mean you've got you can correct me if I'm wrong 126 00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:33.039 about this, but when you can't really share some of these issues with your 127 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:35.559 team, because it might be about your team, or with your board, 128 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:39.350 because it might be about your board or your investors, or with your customers 129 00:09:39.429 --> 00:09:41.750 because you're trying to decide what your next market might be or how to manage 130 00:09:41.750 --> 00:09:46.830 your current strategy. And so it gives everybody an opportunity to just be who 131 00:09:46.909 --> 00:09:52.269 they are and share personal things to although the focuses on business in the forums 132 00:09:52.470 --> 00:09:56.500 and everybody has to come with a challenge. So it's completely driven by member 133 00:09:58.139 --> 00:10:03.500 issues every quarter and then I think over the time you just develop this camaraderie 134 00:10:03.500 --> 00:10:05.220 as you grow your businesses together. Is there some others? There something else 135 00:10:05.220 --> 00:10:09.690 I'm missing? No, I think that's a pretty comprehensive view. I think 136 00:10:09.730 --> 00:10:13.570 that we also share bus practices. You know, there's lots of new ideas. 137 00:10:13.610 --> 00:10:18.889 They get generated through the form because we're seeing new and interesting challenges. 138 00:10:18.129 --> 00:10:24.480 The other thing I would add was how often interesting you innovative ideas about how 139 00:10:24.559 --> 00:10:28.799 to think about your own business come out of seeing and helping someone deal with 140 00:10:28.879 --> 00:10:31.039 challenges in their own business? Yeah, well, you be kind of out 141 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:33.799 of it. I didn't think about that, you know. Well, that's 142 00:10:33.919 --> 00:10:37.389 yeah, maybe it's something that would have hit you a year from now exactly. 143 00:10:39.629 --> 00:10:43.149 Think other key's John is the commitment. Yea other that this is a 144 00:10:43.470 --> 00:10:50.419 quarterly one or two day meeting. Everybody comes prepared to share best practices or 145 00:10:50.740 --> 00:10:56.019 we introduce some Ip from our frameworks and everybody comes prepared to share their challenges 146 00:10:56.299 --> 00:11:01.139 and and then there they have milestones they commit to at the end of each 147 00:11:01.179 --> 00:11:05.169 meeting and final advice for each other and they are expected to be there at 148 00:11:05.210 --> 00:11:09.850 the next quarterly meeting. And so it builds this connuity and what I've just 149 00:11:09.929 --> 00:11:13.610 found as a commitment to help each other, because that's that's what we care 150 00:11:13.649 --> 00:11:16.129 about. That's is the success of each member in that room. It's it 151 00:11:16.289 --> 00:11:20.879 and you you have to admit it is preparation intensive. This is not we 152 00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:24.159 don't bring in a lot, we don't bring in speakers. This is a 153 00:11:24.279 --> 00:11:26.879 really about the members getting together with what's really going on in their businesses. 154 00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:31.519 Yeah, it's very real, very raw, and everyone is very candid about 155 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:35.309 what's really happening, which many times they don't get to they don't get to 156 00:11:35.429 --> 00:11:41.149 be that candid right with how they're really feeling and dealing with things, and 157 00:11:41.429 --> 00:11:43.789 this is this is a place where they can feel safe to do that. 158 00:11:43.309 --> 00:11:48.740 which brings us to sort of what's going on around us right now recording this 159 00:11:48.860 --> 00:11:52.419 session here. What are some of the candid conversations you're having with CEOS from 160 00:11:52.460 --> 00:11:56.179 the forum now that are that are reaching out, I imagine, with with 161 00:11:56.340 --> 00:11:58.940 challenges? What are you hearing out there? Yeah, I can share some 162 00:12:00.019 --> 00:12:01.809 of that with you. I'm as soon as this started to hit, I'm 163 00:12:01.850 --> 00:12:07.730 running three forms right now and I started just reaching out to the to each 164 00:12:07.809 --> 00:12:11.450 forum with what's going on, and then suggested we have zoom calls together. 165 00:12:11.730 --> 00:12:16.519 So each forum, since this is started with some of them, have had 166 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:18.960 to each ones had at least one and we're going to continue it through this 167 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:22.799 crisis. So I can tell you exactly what some of the themes are that 168 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:26.360 are coming out of all this, and I think it ties back to the 169 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:31.350 original purpose of this podcast, right, which is about the CEO role, 170 00:12:31.710 --> 00:12:35.149 right evolution and how it changes. Yeah, so just what I'm seeing right 171 00:12:35.269 --> 00:12:41.070 now in terms of what the groups are talking about and what their challenges are. 172 00:12:41.590 --> 00:12:43.700 One of them is just how do you lead through this? Like, 173 00:12:43.899 --> 00:12:48.899 what do you do? Everything's changed, everybody's remote. The way you operated 174 00:12:50.019 --> 00:12:54.580 before is completely different. There's this real unsettled feeling and the employee base. 175 00:12:54.220 --> 00:12:58.649 You don't know what's happening with your customers. What's some of them have? 176 00:13:00.610 --> 00:13:03.049 You know, if you're in the retail sector, Oh my God, right, 177 00:13:03.330 --> 00:13:07.409 but if you're in a vertical market or segment that is online line, 178 00:13:07.769 --> 00:13:15.679 things are looking okay, and so the response really has to be varied by 179 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:20.399 the kind of business you are. So one of the biggest is CEO Mindset 180 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:22.799 and some of the guidelines that the groups have come up with. What they're 181 00:13:22.799 --> 00:13:28.269 doing is he as super transparent as you can. HMM, you don't have 182 00:13:28.350 --> 00:13:31.710 to know at all, but tell employees what's going on and what you're doing 183 00:13:31.990 --> 00:13:37.470 to keep the company going. They're doing fun things like Friday afternoon cocktails. 184 00:13:39.110 --> 00:13:45.059 We know, tie your company on Zoom, yeah, virtual coil. One 185 00:13:45.139 --> 00:13:50.580 CEGO ONCEO was a sterical he set out an email to his entire company with 186 00:13:50.700 --> 00:13:56.049 himself wearing multiple hats and like really funny looking hats, and saying, you 187 00:13:56.129 --> 00:13:58.529 know, don't worry about what you look like if you have wash your hair, 188 00:13:58.649 --> 00:14:03.409 just put on a hat. So everybody showed up with a hat. 189 00:14:03.649 --> 00:14:07.370 It was it was a sterical and then we did the same thing in our 190 00:14:07.409 --> 00:14:09.840 form call. I said, okay, everybody where your favorite hat and bring 191 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:13.200 bad laws of Y. and so we're doing it at like five thirty at 192 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:18.240 night. We're doing an hour. It's gool. So be transparent, be 193 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:22.720 honest with employees, communicate more than you ever thought you were going to, 194 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:26.669 and a little humor can be helpful. And then the guidelines that the groups 195 00:14:26.710 --> 00:14:31.909 have come up with is number one, keep your employees safe. Do everything 196 00:14:31.950 --> 00:14:35.429 you can for that number to you know, continue service for your customers and 197 00:14:35.789 --> 00:14:39.779 and do your part to mitigate the spread of this virus. Have Compassion for 198 00:14:39.820 --> 00:14:43.860 vulnerable workforces, figure out ways to be helpful. Some CEOS are getting involved 199 00:14:43.899 --> 00:14:48.980 in charity or, you know, just helping the the less fortunate and live 200 00:14:48.059 --> 00:14:52.220 your core values through this. I make sure you pay attention to those. 201 00:14:52.539 --> 00:14:56.289 The other one is really challenging. It's like, how how do you make 202 00:14:56.330 --> 00:15:01.049 sure that you don't get skewed in one direction of pessimism or in the direction 203 00:15:01.169 --> 00:15:07.279 of too optimistic? Too pessimistic or too optimistic, because we don't know how 204 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:09.200 long this is going to last, we don't know what the outcome is going 205 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:13.919 to be. Work is probably changing in fundamental ways. So how is a 206 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:18.879 CEO do you maintain that equilibrium so that you haven't gone too far and maybe 207 00:15:20.000 --> 00:15:22.110 making cuts or other things you might need to do to whether the storm, 208 00:15:22.429 --> 00:15:26.669 but at the same token you're at too optimistic. Another one that came up 209 00:15:26.710 --> 00:15:31.909 that's really sad but neat they need to worry about and think about is employee 210 00:15:31.909 --> 00:15:35.019 anxiety, about grief and illness. So right before one of the calls, 211 00:15:35.179 --> 00:15:39.659 one of the CEOS said, I just got a slack that grandfather of what 212 00:15:39.779 --> 00:15:45.340 our employees just died of covid nineteen. What do I do? So what 213 00:15:46.220 --> 00:15:50.169 what people have recommended is, well, one idea was get people grief and 214 00:15:50.250 --> 00:15:54.409 anxiety counseling, pair each of your employees up with a mentor. But have 215 00:15:54.570 --> 00:15:58.690 a plan, you know. That's another thing is step back and have a 216 00:15:58.769 --> 00:16:02.370 plan for all these eventualities that just you know, you just don't think about. 217 00:16:02.529 --> 00:16:04.919 So I think that's some of the immediacy. The other big one, 218 00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:10.399 which I touched on before, is changing and innovate how you go to market. 219 00:16:10.919 --> 00:16:14.679 So if you have, if you're selling into multiple segments, are those 220 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:19.269 are those segments healthy given what's happening? Or should you change your messaging and 221 00:16:19.429 --> 00:16:25.350 change the way you sell? And in some cases companies have changed their ways 222 00:16:25.389 --> 00:16:29.149 of selling? is as much as going from an annual subscription to a monthly 223 00:16:29.549 --> 00:16:33.019 and changing the way sales people sell and giving them change their quotas and change 224 00:16:33.059 --> 00:16:37.179 the way they're measured. So that's a big one. Another is obviously the 225 00:16:37.460 --> 00:16:42.980 economic response. So in these companies it's making sure you have cash to ride 226 00:16:44.019 --> 00:16:47.889 this out right. So some things people are doing is are drawing down all 227 00:16:47.970 --> 00:16:51.250 the credit line so they have the cash. Because people remember two thousand and 228 00:16:51.370 --> 00:16:53.490 eight, and I'm proud to say all four members in two thousand and eight 229 00:16:53.570 --> 00:16:57.570 made it through and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for this, for this one. 230 00:16:57.850 --> 00:17:03.400 The other interesting observation is that people find that investors have gotten a little 231 00:17:03.400 --> 00:17:07.799 bit friendlier. It's like we're all in this together. So it's almost like 232 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:11.079 the changing human interactions. Need more kindness, but it doesn't mean more checks, 233 00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:17.230 because there are also they're also hunkering down, obviously, and and being 234 00:17:17.269 --> 00:17:21.509 very careful about who they're going to reserve funds for in their portfolios. Right. 235 00:17:21.869 --> 00:17:25.750 The other is do the stress testing on your business model and to that 236 00:17:25.869 --> 00:17:30.099 point I made earlier about the how you keep it equilibrium is some some are 237 00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:33.380 continuing to hire for the key positions, they have enough cash in the bank 238 00:17:33.420 --> 00:17:36.940 and so go forth if you if you're you know if your markets are, 239 00:17:37.339 --> 00:17:41.619 are going to be continuing. But it's very uncertain time and it changes literally 240 00:17:41.660 --> 00:17:45.450 every call. The call new challenges, new things that we hadn't anticipated. 241 00:17:45.569 --> 00:17:49.170 We try to anticipate, but we hadn't anticipated. Does that? Is that 242 00:17:49.289 --> 00:17:53.369 in comment? Yeah, that's just fantastic. A few a few comments. 243 00:17:53.690 --> 00:17:56.890 Number One, you you alluded to two thousand and eight and I was talking 244 00:17:56.930 --> 00:18:00.200 to someone the other day that you know, probably in the last decade or 245 00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:06.400 so we've seen so many sort of global catastrophes. Right, there was you've 246 00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:10.559 seen nine eleven, especially if you're standing in a New York State Zip Code, 247 00:18:10.559 --> 00:18:12.829 right, you've seen eleven. You've seen big hurricanes, feen the Financial 248 00:18:12.910 --> 00:18:18.190 Crisis One perspective, as you've seen trump, yep, and now coronavirus. 249 00:18:18.509 --> 00:18:23.150 Are these all things that ultimately you know you're looted a two thousand and eight 250 00:18:23.190 --> 00:18:26.700 and sues hit. CEO said we remembered that, and they pulled out to 251 00:18:26.819 --> 00:18:30.740 just pulled out that playbook and said what applies here? Are these kind of 252 00:18:30.900 --> 00:18:34.500 things helpful to the growth of a CEEO, to the growth of a CEO? 253 00:18:34.619 --> 00:18:38.539 Well, many of the CEOS currently in the forums did not go through 254 00:18:38.660 --> 00:18:42.089 two thousand and eight, HMM, but I did with the ones who were 255 00:18:42.170 --> 00:18:47.130 in the forums then, and a number of the VC's have, and I 256 00:18:47.329 --> 00:18:53.009 think that the playbook at that time is is different in that this is striking 257 00:18:53.089 --> 00:18:56.400 different parts of the economy differently, whereas in two thousand and eight it was 258 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:02.319 just a general, just implosion across the board. I think some of the 259 00:19:02.480 --> 00:19:06.119 things apply, like, because of the uncertainty, you do have to guard 260 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:10.069 your cash, you do have to you have to think about who should be 261 00:19:10.309 --> 00:19:14.589 on on board right now. And Ironically, this is providing a little bit 262 00:19:14.630 --> 00:19:18.349 of cover for decisions that maybe should have been made a couple of quarters or 263 00:19:18.430 --> 00:19:22.509 co right, we're to rightly about you can run the limit, we're not 264 00:19:22.670 --> 00:19:26.380 performing quite the way you wanted, or other kinds of decisions like that that 265 00:19:26.619 --> 00:19:30.140 are now getting made, which is sad for those you know those people, 266 00:19:30.420 --> 00:19:34.180 but those are the kinds of decisions that that I think are similar to two 267 00:19:34.259 --> 00:19:38.970 thousand and eight. But I do think there are more nuances to this one. 268 00:19:40.250 --> 00:19:45.609 And there's this double whammy of the people's side in terms of health. 269 00:19:47.049 --> 00:19:51.970 So the anxiety is not just economic. It is economic, but it's also 270 00:19:52.009 --> 00:19:56.960 about illnesses of you know, family and friends and Co workers and healthcare system. 271 00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:00.960 I'm in your health system, getting completely overwhelmed, and then a lot 272 00:20:00.039 --> 00:20:06.960 of confusion coming from, you know, the president. So I think this 273 00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:11.950 is harder in a way because CEO's have had to make some decisions. For 274 00:20:12.029 --> 00:20:17.390 example, work from home. Before it was mandated. All the forums we 275 00:20:17.549 --> 00:20:22.259 had, we immediately started talking about it. Someone sent out an email like 276 00:20:22.339 --> 00:20:25.019 what do you do about this work from home thing? I mean this was 277 00:20:25.140 --> 00:20:29.460 not even two weeks ago. Oh Yeah, and then I started doing a 278 00:20:29.539 --> 00:20:32.140 whole ton of research. I had a cousin in Italy, so I knew 279 00:20:32.140 --> 00:20:34.339 what was happening in Italy and then read about the flattening the curve, and 280 00:20:34.380 --> 00:20:37.450 then I just there were already on it, but we just sent it around 281 00:20:37.450 --> 00:20:41.569 to everybody in the forums and literally within a day everybody was working from home 282 00:20:41.730 --> 00:20:47.009 and that was not mandated and that was hard, especially for some who saw 283 00:20:47.089 --> 00:20:51.119 some real economic hardship, to to that because of the nature of their business. 284 00:20:51.200 --> 00:20:55.480 So that's a kind of leadership that I think I've been so impressed with 285 00:20:55.720 --> 00:20:59.599 across the form members and other other CEOS who have who have it's like the 286 00:20:59.640 --> 00:21:03.319 governors having to step up and write and make decisions. Yeah, different. 287 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:07.990 I think it's different this time. Will it create I know that this will 288 00:21:07.109 --> 00:21:14.549 certainly lead to more more experience and different ways of viewing the business and their 289 00:21:14.750 --> 00:21:18.740 role for sure going forward. Hmmm, does that answer your question, John? 290 00:21:18.779 --> 00:21:25.059 Yeah, yeah, are you currently making the transition from founder to CEEO? 291 00:21:25.579 --> 00:21:27.180 Are you a first time CEO in the middle of a huge challenge, 292 00:21:27.460 --> 00:21:32.259 or you just curious about what it takes? Then you need to read CEO 293 00:21:32.380 --> 00:21:37.609 Playbook. It's an online publication full of stories from real CEOS and practical sage 294 00:21:37.609 --> 00:21:41.849 advice for leaders of high growth companies. Go to CEEO PLAYBOOK DOT COM to 295 00:21:41.890 --> 00:21:45.170 start reading some amazing content for free. You'll find out why over four hundred 296 00:21:45.210 --> 00:21:51.640 CEOS go here to learn what it's really like being CEO. I was getting 297 00:21:51.720 --> 00:21:55.480 to something I spend a lot of time thinking about, and that's this concept 298 00:21:55.559 --> 00:22:00.880 of anti fragile and this whole idea that in the CEO Journey, you've got 299 00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.630 your you sort of writing a bit of a roller coaster. Right when things 300 00:22:03.630 --> 00:22:07.509 are growing great, everything's great and you feel like a hero, but there's 301 00:22:07.670 --> 00:22:12.109 there's there's certainly growth, but this probably not as much growth, both personally 302 00:22:12.190 --> 00:22:18.140 and professionally that occurs until you are going down the roller coaster and you're you're 303 00:22:18.140 --> 00:22:22.339 running into a whole series of challenges and you learn a lot about what you 304 00:22:22.420 --> 00:22:26.140 can and can't do personally and professionally and how to deal with the with the 305 00:22:26.140 --> 00:22:29.740 challenges that come with it. And when you get through that, it actually 306 00:22:30.170 --> 00:22:33.450 something happens in your DNA or something and you just you just become stronger. 307 00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:36.369 So the next time you see it you just react to it completely differently. 308 00:22:36.450 --> 00:22:38.170 As I oh, I've seen this movie before. So I wonder if the 309 00:22:38.250 --> 00:22:42.410 CEOS who have been through downturns, economic downturns or other types of, you 310 00:22:42.450 --> 00:22:48.440 know, major catastrophees, you know, their approach to this challenge is certainly 311 00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.079 different because it's a different challenge. But there they're standing on the shoulders of 312 00:22:52.519 --> 00:22:56.759 their past experience, if you will. Yeah, I think that's absolutely true 313 00:22:56.960 --> 00:23:03.470 and certainly having had two thousand and eight happened, seasoned the whole startup investor 314 00:23:03.750 --> 00:23:11.900 backed and investor community to these kinds of things. That that happened incredibly quickly 315 00:23:12.180 --> 00:23:17.619 made this happened so fast, right, although there are plenty of warning signs. 316 00:23:18.099 --> 00:23:21.539 But yeah, on a global basis, yeah, but sort of. 317 00:23:21.619 --> 00:23:26.220 Yeah, Yep, but there's definitely pulling out the playbooks from before and some 318 00:23:26.339 --> 00:23:32.930 of my CEOS see their mind. You're one of my CEOS. It's I 319 00:23:33.049 --> 00:23:37.450 know, I inclue to you. They may have been through it, but 320 00:23:37.650 --> 00:23:41.200 not as a CEO. Right, the CEOS who are now running companies, 321 00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:45.680 who are more operational roles, who aren't necessarily founders, or maybe their founders 322 00:23:45.720 --> 00:23:52.279 and they were doing something else before. So I think that having had that 323 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:56.230 experience is definitely empowers them and I think for all of us who made it 324 00:23:56.309 --> 00:24:00.390 through, it's like, okay, we can get through this, but it 325 00:24:00.509 --> 00:24:03.789 doesn't happen without a lot of work and a lot of thinking and a lot 326 00:24:03.789 --> 00:24:06.309 of change and a lot of hard decisions, right. Yeah, and I 327 00:24:06.430 --> 00:24:10.140 like to think of the forums as early warning systems and, know, just 328 00:24:11.059 --> 00:24:14.299 being able to share both the challenges but also, as you mentioned earlier, 329 00:24:14.380 --> 00:24:15.700 like well, what do we do? What are the best practices? How 330 00:24:15.740 --> 00:24:18.380 do we do that? How do we how do we do this? And 331 00:24:18.460 --> 00:24:22.940 so that's definitely another point about the form is that you have seen, you, 332 00:24:22.259 --> 00:24:26.009 Bougie, and the form itself in the forum system has seen a lot, 333 00:24:26.210 --> 00:24:30.730 and so there is institutional memory. Right, that becomes very valuable to 334 00:24:32.009 --> 00:24:33.849 the members, right, because if you've had folks that are in the form 335 00:24:33.970 --> 00:24:37.250 that have been through a lot of challenges before and their parts of reform, 336 00:24:37.369 --> 00:24:41.440 that's helpful. But then you have, you know, captured a lot of 337 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:45.319 you know in your journaling, of the interesting things that happen over there many 338 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:48.960 years that you've done this. They offer up some great resources, I would 339 00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:53.390 imagine, as well. Yeah, and I have to say I've never seen 340 00:24:53.430 --> 00:24:56.910 a company, I mean it's part of our model. It never just grows 341 00:24:57.630 --> 00:25:04.390 with no turbulence or try. Yeah, and and part of my messes company 342 00:25:04.470 --> 00:25:10.779 that just go straight up the right. Yeah, I writion was to help 343 00:25:11.180 --> 00:25:15.660 to make sure that I was in a position to be able to help see 344 00:25:15.779 --> 00:25:18.700 as navigate that reality as best I as best I could. And a lot 345 00:25:18.740 --> 00:25:23.329 of the the ideas in the frameworks we use about, you know, the 346 00:25:23.450 --> 00:25:29.289 different stages companies go through growth. They're going to hit turbulence, they might 347 00:25:29.410 --> 00:25:32.569 spiral down and then they need to transform to get to the next level and 348 00:25:32.650 --> 00:25:36.119 then there and that can happen multiple times in a company's history. It always 349 00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:41.200 does. And so there are right now, everybody's in turbulence at the same 350 00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:45.839 time. But whereas you're talking about the framework that you use to shot's come 351 00:25:45.960 --> 00:25:49.000 right. where? Yeah, the predictable stages of corporate growth. It's cool 352 00:25:49.309 --> 00:25:52.029 concept is you you are going up into the right, but it's not a 353 00:25:52.150 --> 00:25:56.190 it's not a continuous line that goes up into the right. Sometimes it may 354 00:25:56.230 --> 00:26:00.190 stop, swirl down, go backwards right and then you have to make changes 355 00:26:00.470 --> 00:26:04.019 to sort of move up to the next level. Of the of the continuous 356 00:26:04.180 --> 00:26:08.619 light. Yeah, and and also to make sure you have already built in 357 00:26:08.700 --> 00:26:12.819 your company, just like we're talking about the frameworks coming out to manage through 358 00:26:12.859 --> 00:26:18.299 this crisis, that you already have the A, the way you're going to 359 00:26:18.420 --> 00:26:23.210 manage through these kinds of situations or just general growth turbulence as how you do 360 00:26:23.369 --> 00:26:26.730 business. Right. So you make sure that you have a plan and a 361 00:26:26.809 --> 00:26:30.170 way to change the plan and that you're building alignment and that you have a 362 00:26:30.210 --> 00:26:36.319 way to quickly change course if you need to write all those things. Yeah, 363 00:26:36.519 --> 00:26:37.559 really, and that's what that's one of the things I wanted to talk 364 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:41.359 to you a bit about, and before I do, I want to ask 365 00:26:41.400 --> 00:26:45.200 you one question. What's the one thing you notice about first timers? I 366 00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.750 asked all the CEE CEEO friends of mine that on this series about do you 367 00:26:48.750 --> 00:26:51.630 remember your first time? I was at like what do you noticed about first 368 00:26:51.630 --> 00:26:56.069 timers they come to the forum in terms of their role, their CEO role? 369 00:26:56.470 --> 00:26:57.829 Yeah, their role. What do you notice about them? I guess 370 00:26:57.910 --> 00:27:03.299 what's different about them than the experience CEO's it come into the forum where they 371 00:27:03.380 --> 00:27:07.420 most concerned about? Perhaps. Well, I think one of the interesting things 372 00:27:07.500 --> 00:27:12.059 about humans is we like to be able to say that we get things done 373 00:27:12.059 --> 00:27:17.650 right, we accomplish something. And, as you know, as a CEO 374 00:27:17.769 --> 00:27:21.730 role evolved. It's not that you're not accomplishing things, it's just that you're 375 00:27:21.730 --> 00:27:26.490 not maybe actually doing them yourself. You're not coding anymore right exactly, not 376 00:27:26.650 --> 00:27:30.319 selling anymore, you may not be out there doing business development anymore. And 377 00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:37.880 so what I see is excitement and an incredible enthusiasm talking about founder, entrepreneurial 378 00:27:38.759 --> 00:27:45.390 CEOS, real optimism for their businesses. I think think they get worried and 379 00:27:45.589 --> 00:27:52.950 nervous when they start to scale, start building a team and feel like maybe 380 00:27:52.069 --> 00:27:57.029 they're not doing what they used to do and wondering like do I really have 381 00:27:57.069 --> 00:28:02.299 a role here? There's sort of sense of almost imposter syndrome, like everybody 382 00:28:02.299 --> 00:28:04.660 else is doing all the work and I'm kind of orchestrating it, but is 383 00:28:04.700 --> 00:28:07.380 that valid? Does that mean I should be? I mean, I think 384 00:28:07.420 --> 00:28:11.859 that's a real a real feeling, and I think that continues actually, because 385 00:28:12.650 --> 00:28:18.250 one goes as you as your company grows in scales, you have to make 386 00:28:18.369 --> 00:28:22.450 some hard decisions about who's going to be on the team and that founding team 387 00:28:22.609 --> 00:28:26.930 that you love may not be the right one to take to the next level. 388 00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:30.880 And then the see is very uncomfortable because you have to it's personal. 389 00:28:30.119 --> 00:28:36.079 You have to let let folks go potentially. So I think that there's there's 390 00:28:36.079 --> 00:28:38.599 a little bit going in like now, we're in this together, this will 391 00:28:38.599 --> 00:28:42.710 be my team forever. That kind of sense, and that often, not 392 00:28:42.869 --> 00:28:47.750 always, but often, doesn't scale. So I think they come at it 393 00:28:47.990 --> 00:28:52.390 with maybe a you that it's all going to work out fine and we're and 394 00:28:52.470 --> 00:28:56.180 everybody's going to make it as they grow the company. But the reality is 395 00:28:56.539 --> 00:29:02.059 that first challenge with what about my cofounder, etc. I'm not sure that 396 00:29:02.140 --> 00:29:04.819 they're going to be the right person right. Yeah, that's really, really 397 00:29:06.099 --> 00:29:10.569 hard. It's the people. Decisions are always the hardest. And then so 398 00:29:10.650 --> 00:29:15.130 I think it's also just I haven't done this before Sys some insecurity attached to 399 00:29:15.210 --> 00:29:18.490 that. That's my that's my perception. Once again, I don't think that 400 00:29:18.650 --> 00:29:22.569 always goes away either. I think there's always a sense of that and and 401 00:29:23.130 --> 00:29:27.279 you can't really reveal that to you, know, to your board. You 402 00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:30.920 don't feel you can reveal that to your board. You or or are your 403 00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:33.640 team team, yeah, or maybe even your spouse. I don't know, 404 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:37.200 maybe you can do reveal it. Hears bad, but but that's what the 405 00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:38.950 forums for, is to get all that out and really talk it through and 406 00:29:38.990 --> 00:29:42.309 then realize, hey, most of us, most of people in the group, 407 00:29:42.430 --> 00:29:45.630 most of the CEO's, are feeling a little bit of that too. 408 00:29:45.589 --> 00:29:52.660 And then the more experienced coming in as having run companies before, but coming 409 00:29:52.700 --> 00:29:56.019 into a new company, it's always a new situation, right, right. 410 00:29:56.299 --> 00:30:00.619 So even though they have a tool kit on how to run a company and 411 00:30:00.740 --> 00:30:03.900 do a great job, there's just lots of discovery that has to happen and 412 00:30:04.019 --> 00:30:10.410 and some of the same those same challenges hit again just the P I see 413 00:30:10.410 --> 00:30:11.890 that over and over again. That's kind of the biggest piece, is the 414 00:30:11.970 --> 00:30:15.769 growth of the team and how the team needs to evolve and how the CEO 415 00:30:15.049 --> 00:30:18.369 has to be the one who makes a decision about not only who's on the 416 00:30:18.410 --> 00:30:22.839 team but how the company's organized. And that can be super challenging. If 417 00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:26.519 you're can hurt someone's feelings or you've already overinflated the titles. So you've got 418 00:30:26.559 --> 00:30:30.039 all these sea level people, right, you're early directors right now. Take 419 00:30:30.039 --> 00:30:33.440 us through. So in the form. As I was saying, you focus 420 00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:37.869 a lot on the fact that it's okay to feel a bit anxious right now 421 00:30:37.109 --> 00:30:41.190 because now you're now, you're officially the CEO, right, especially when new 422 00:30:41.230 --> 00:30:44.390 money comes in, when you have professional investors, that you sort of change 423 00:30:44.470 --> 00:30:48.349 from just being a founder doing what due to being an operator, right. 424 00:30:48.509 --> 00:30:52.740 But you really focus on educating the form participants on the fact that the CEO 425 00:30:52.859 --> 00:30:55.859 is not a fixed point. It's never a fixed point, right. It's 426 00:30:55.900 --> 00:31:00.420 a movie journey and ever changing. Could you take us through those points of 427 00:31:00.539 --> 00:31:03.980 change, like start from the beginning so you know what's the rule about, 428 00:31:03.019 --> 00:31:07.970 and take us through sort of full continuum of the framework. Sure. So, 429 00:31:07.609 --> 00:31:11.569 when we as I mentioned earlier, we have this concept of the predictable 430 00:31:11.569 --> 00:31:15.970 stages of corporate growth and I outlined that. That's assuming you make it through 431 00:31:17.289 --> 00:31:19.720 early stage. There's growth, there's turbulence, then you have to transform the 432 00:31:19.799 --> 00:31:23.559 company to get to the next level, and that happens as companies scale and 433 00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:29.359 grow and it can happen continually. But there are we have five, four 434 00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:33.950 different stages that we identify that we talk about in the forums, which the 435 00:31:33.069 --> 00:31:38.349 first is start up, when you're developing the product and there the CEO role 436 00:31:38.670 --> 00:31:42.630 is typically you've gotten far enough to have proof of concept or now, with 437 00:31:42.710 --> 00:31:47.220 big seed rounds, you're at a point where you're ready to raise money. 438 00:31:47.579 --> 00:31:52.259 That's a huge part of the job right is raising the money, beginning to 439 00:31:52.779 --> 00:31:57.900 build out your team. Typically in tech you're expanding, continuing to expand engineering, 440 00:31:57.980 --> 00:32:01.369 the technical side, but then you want to bring in marketing and sales 441 00:32:01.490 --> 00:32:05.170 and the other pieces as you begin to go to market. So you figured 442 00:32:05.210 --> 00:32:08.490 out the product, you figure it out the concept, and that's a develop 443 00:32:08.569 --> 00:32:13.609 product side, a sorry product stage, and then you move into what we 444 00:32:13.690 --> 00:32:16.880 call initial growth, and that's when you're beginning to think about how you go 445 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:21.519 to market. So at this point, if the CEO is a founder CEO 446 00:32:21.640 --> 00:32:25.960 who was technical and there's another cofounder who might be more of the business side, 447 00:32:27.359 --> 00:32:30.869 then it begins to really diverge in terms of the different roles, because 448 00:32:30.230 --> 00:32:35.950 the the person who is actually the CEO is the one who's responsible for making 449 00:32:36.029 --> 00:32:39.390 sure that the go to market piece gets really strong and probably still has to 450 00:32:39.470 --> 00:32:45.859 raise another round to fund that stage and is looking at how do we how 451 00:32:45.900 --> 00:32:49.619 do we really go to market and capture market share? But by now the 452 00:32:49.700 --> 00:32:53.099 team's gotten pretty big relative to the one or two, or three or maybe 453 00:32:53.220 --> 00:32:58.220 five founders, and so beginning to have to worry about team dynamics and the 454 00:32:58.220 --> 00:33:00.650 kind of culture that you're trying to build in your company and bringing in your 455 00:33:00.690 --> 00:33:04.490 court, making sure you have good core values that are going to be the 456 00:33:04.609 --> 00:33:07.089 foundation for what you want to build and that you are beginning to put a 457 00:33:07.130 --> 00:33:12.450 little process in, which a lot of entrepreneurs hate. Right, yeah, 458 00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:17.759 badrrect like. What process? Oh, we're going to stifle and turn into 459 00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:22.440 IBM. You know rights exactly. But we believe you have to put a 460 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:27.869 little bit in in terms of planning and regular meetings and all those things we 461 00:33:27.950 --> 00:33:30.549 call the operating system. The sooner you start with a little bit, the 462 00:33:30.670 --> 00:33:34.869 easier it becomes and it just becomes part of your company. But he's DNA 463 00:33:35.269 --> 00:33:37.150 in the way you do business and that supports your next stage, which is 464 00:33:37.230 --> 00:33:43.259 rapid growth, where you're beginning to lead the market. It's much more complicated. 465 00:33:43.339 --> 00:33:49.019 You might have introduced another product or two and the role of the CEO 466 00:33:49.500 --> 00:33:54.809 is even more communicating, Building Alignment, Planning, coaching. Probably had to 467 00:33:54.849 --> 00:34:00.450 change out some team members by now, and everybody always complains about communication. 468 00:34:00.529 --> 00:34:04.730 Right, John, there's never enough in a company. It's like I told 469 00:34:04.769 --> 00:34:08.210 them this, alrighty. Well, multiple ways try to communicate, and so 470 00:34:08.369 --> 00:34:10.800 it becomes more in part because or more people. I mean I think once 471 00:34:10.840 --> 00:34:16.199 you reach over fifty and you've been there, you don't always recognize everybody right 472 00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:22.360 away and it's just much harder because they're more people in different teams. Silos 473 00:34:22.400 --> 00:34:25.789 can start if you're not really careful. And then the last stage we talked 474 00:34:25.789 --> 00:34:31.829 about is continuous growth, and there the CEO becomes much less of much more 475 00:34:32.030 --> 00:34:37.030 externally focused. So all the systems and those the values and the operating system 476 00:34:37.150 --> 00:34:40.260 and the way you go to market and the culture, all those things are 477 00:34:40.380 --> 00:34:45.420 what hold the company together as a CEO becomes more and more strategic. Not 478 00:34:45.579 --> 00:34:50.340 that they've left the company by any stretch of the imagination, but their role 479 00:34:50.539 --> 00:34:52.730 is okay, what's the next big innovation? How do we change? So 480 00:34:52.849 --> 00:34:55.570 we're going to have to continue to change to grow a big company. How 481 00:34:55.610 --> 00:34:59.170 do I build? What do I have to keep doing to build the organization 482 00:34:59.250 --> 00:35:02.289 and making sure that the culture is consistent across the whole company? So those 483 00:35:02.329 --> 00:35:07.800 are different, feel like really different jobs right right, and that's why, 484 00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:12.880 the earlier point, you were saying, that feeling of anxiety or imposter syndrome 485 00:35:13.159 --> 00:35:15.920 keeps happening, because every time you go to these new changes, right you, 486 00:35:16.639 --> 00:35:21.079 it's almost like a completely new job again. Right. And and then 487 00:35:21.079 --> 00:35:24.869 the one of this. The best CEOS are the ones who bring in people 488 00:35:24.909 --> 00:35:30.710 they think could replace them. HMM, because it always just pages are what 489 00:35:31.829 --> 00:35:36.619 not, I mean just to what they think are just really superstars on their 490 00:35:36.659 --> 00:35:40.659 teams. Right. That, because you never know what's going to like what 491 00:35:40.820 --> 00:35:45.059 just hit us in these last few weeks, and because the team, the 492 00:35:45.179 --> 00:35:50.730 better your team is, the better the company will be. And your your 493 00:35:50.849 --> 00:35:54.409 role, even if you don't feel like you're doing anything. Your role is 494 00:35:54.489 --> 00:35:59.809 to make sure that team is operating super well together and that you've got the 495 00:35:59.849 --> 00:36:01.730 right players on the team and that you're making these like a coach of a 496 00:36:01.929 --> 00:36:05.039 of a Basque of a team, right, like who you going to bring 497 00:36:05.079 --> 00:36:07.960 to market, who you're going to bring to the game, and that gets 498 00:36:07.000 --> 00:36:13.280 more and more critical as you scale and grow. So you know, don't 499 00:36:13.320 --> 00:36:17.590 be afraid to bring in experience either, if you're a founding first time CEO. 500 00:36:19.110 --> 00:36:22.150 Just a last thought is don't be afraid go but also don't assume that 501 00:36:22.269 --> 00:36:25.510 just because they have a lot of experience are going to know what to do 502 00:36:25.670 --> 00:36:30.230 for your company. Still have to lead and you still have to inspect right 503 00:36:30.750 --> 00:36:36.420 make sure that the right things are happening. Team members like really great people 504 00:36:36.420 --> 00:36:40.820 who've done this before, and don't be afraid to lead them just because sometimes 505 00:36:40.860 --> 00:36:45.940 it's it's a little intimidating if you bring in somebody who's already been on a 506 00:36:45.019 --> 00:36:49.849 team that's taken a company public and you're at ten million and growing fast. 507 00:36:49.929 --> 00:36:53.090 Right, right, that could be that could be a little intimidating. So 508 00:36:53.690 --> 00:36:57.730 my point there is not to be afraid of doing that. In fact, 509 00:36:57.730 --> 00:37:00.170 that could be the right thing for the company, but means then you were 510 00:37:00.289 --> 00:37:06.599 managing those people. HMM and want to common mistake, but a natural one, 511 00:37:06.840 --> 00:37:10.760 is if people assume that those people know just what to do. But 512 00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:14.840 just because they have experience doesn't mean they know what the right thing to do 513 00:37:15.000 --> 00:37:16.989 is for your company. And every time you bring a new team member and 514 00:37:17.030 --> 00:37:21.750 you've got a new team so you constantly have to be resetting how the team 515 00:37:21.789 --> 00:37:23.789 and looking at how the team is working together. And that could be intimidating 516 00:37:23.829 --> 00:37:27.869 because you're asked about first time CEEOS. Yeah, no, that could that 517 00:37:27.949 --> 00:37:31.059 could be very intimidating. I have had that experience myself, especially if the 518 00:37:31.139 --> 00:37:36.019 pokes you're bringing on or say you're young CEEO and they're older than you more 519 00:37:36.059 --> 00:37:38.539 experience, their gray haired right and up, and you feel kind of weird, 520 00:37:38.619 --> 00:37:43.219 you know, sort of telling them what to do. Yeah, eating 521 00:37:43.300 --> 00:37:46.010 them and you know came them through, you know, different processes and heaven, 522 00:37:46.289 --> 00:37:51.010 yeah, argument with them. It's very intimidating. It's very intimidating. 523 00:37:51.050 --> 00:37:54.969 And then you might if they if they even at if your best screening efforts. 524 00:37:55.090 --> 00:38:00.239 They might be great at their task, but they're lousy culture fits. 525 00:38:00.559 --> 00:38:04.039 You know, you have to let them go and that's hard anyway, no 526 00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:07.320 matter what. But now, yeah, we just been focusing on the CEO, 527 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:12.760 that person. But through these different growth stages, is the team changing 528 00:38:12.800 --> 00:38:16.829 also? The team has to evolved as well. That's a great, great 529 00:38:16.869 --> 00:38:22.829 point. Just as a CEO really moves from we'll talk about founder, CEOS 530 00:38:22.909 --> 00:38:28.300 moving from doer to more of the delegator and direction setter and then the team 531 00:38:28.340 --> 00:38:31.019 builder in the coach. And then the same happens with the team. So 532 00:38:31.380 --> 00:38:35.300 initially, I mean when I was at avid, we were doing everything. 533 00:38:35.340 --> 00:38:38.019 I'm in the CEO. We get down and screw in the desk, you 534 00:38:38.099 --> 00:38:42.170 know, and build the demo system with me and stuff like that. We 535 00:38:42.289 --> 00:38:45.530 were we're all in it and that was really great. And then there comes 536 00:38:45.530 --> 00:38:49.969 a time when your team, the CEOS team, has to start hiring people 537 00:38:50.530 --> 00:38:54.130 and bringing on New People, and so they have to evolve to more of 538 00:38:54.610 --> 00:39:00.880 coaches and leaders of teams and managers, and that's really different than the doers, 539 00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:06.440 right. So yes, to say it's that same evolution that happens over 540 00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:10.829 time. And of course sometimes I've seen both team members and CEOS have to 541 00:39:10.949 --> 00:39:15.469 dive back into some functional doing role, like we saw that in the forum 542 00:39:15.510 --> 00:39:21.469 right when that's right. Yeah, with like be short on cash or whatever, 543 00:39:21.670 --> 00:39:24.300 couldn't hire the right person and would start coding again then or would start 544 00:39:24.380 --> 00:39:30.260 selling again or would start managing product again. So I think it's it's never 545 00:39:30.539 --> 00:39:37.539 just like the trajectory is has has different phases to it. Yeah, same 546 00:39:37.659 --> 00:39:40.409 with same with the evolution of the team. But that's probably the most important. 547 00:39:42.010 --> 00:39:45.409 Important thing to do well is get the team aligned and get to have 548 00:39:45.489 --> 00:39:46.809 the right team on board. Don't you think so? I do. I 549 00:39:46.969 --> 00:39:50.650 do. I think that, especially if you've never done it before, you 550 00:39:50.730 --> 00:39:53.159 don't know how to align a team. What does that mean? And I 551 00:39:53.280 --> 00:39:58.079 always think there must be someone else who's done this before and there must be 552 00:39:58.199 --> 00:40:00.519 frameworks out there, and so it's very helpful to have systems that you can 553 00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:02.800 use to kind of help you understand, like, what does it mean to 554 00:40:02.920 --> 00:40:07.550 bring a team to some level of alignment and how to get them to communicate 555 00:40:07.670 --> 00:40:10.630 better, get them to build trust and things that you need to do to 556 00:40:10.789 --> 00:40:15.630 actually turn a team that's just a bunch of people in a room to write 557 00:40:15.670 --> 00:40:21.030 a completely integrated focus team that sort of finishes each other sentences, you know, 558 00:40:21.150 --> 00:40:24.500 to something right what you need, and then have that team understand that 559 00:40:24.780 --> 00:40:30.579 over time, as the company changes, they may not be the same team 560 00:40:30.619 --> 00:40:34.539 right. That, for me, was one of the most eyehopening things that 561 00:40:34.619 --> 00:40:37.769 I put it felt like I've hired everybody, all the boxes are filled. 562 00:40:37.809 --> 00:40:42.010 You know that even boxes. I'm good. I did my job right. 563 00:40:42.449 --> 00:40:45.329 You know, we'd bask things happen with the company, like, okay, 564 00:40:45.409 --> 00:40:51.440 wait, that person is not the right person exactly. Like John, what's 565 00:40:51.480 --> 00:40:53.280 your org chart it right. Right, we're what's it going to be now? 566 00:40:53.440 --> 00:40:55.480 That's Today. What do you want to look like in a year? 567 00:40:57.400 --> 00:41:00.400 So amazing. Yeah, and so many CEOS come in and talk about they're 568 00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:02.599 making changes their team and, you know, rebuilding their teams and it's a 569 00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:07.230 continuous process. And then every time you add a new person or you make 570 00:41:07.309 --> 00:41:08.909 a change, you have to go through that realignment again and you, you 571 00:41:08.989 --> 00:41:12.909 know, we, you know, remove the old culture that they're wearing on 572 00:41:12.989 --> 00:41:15.630 their jacket and put on the new culture. is so much that that's involved 573 00:41:15.710 --> 00:41:20.500 in that and a lot of found a CEOS don't realize that's part of the 574 00:41:20.579 --> 00:41:24.059 the part of the job that's right, because it doesn't feel like like work. 575 00:41:24.300 --> 00:41:29.420 It doesn't feel like, Oh, I've here's this code or here's this 576 00:41:29.659 --> 00:41:32.769 deal, or here it right, it's right. Oh, the team isn't 577 00:41:32.809 --> 00:41:37.889 quarreling as much, or now they're finally not coming to my office one by 578 00:41:37.929 --> 00:41:40.610 one to complain about each other. And some of the things that we talked 579 00:41:40.650 --> 00:41:44.329 about a lot in the forum and that come out of our books and our 580 00:41:44.570 --> 00:41:47.960 IP is about how to make how to align teams, and one of the 581 00:41:49.280 --> 00:41:52.920 one of the most important things, I think is get everybody on the same 582 00:41:52.960 --> 00:42:00.199 page about the strategy and and really make sure that everybody has aired their assumptions 583 00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:02.309 about where you want to go and then comes up with, at least a 584 00:42:02.349 --> 00:42:05.989 high level, this is what we want to be, that's going to evolve, 585 00:42:06.869 --> 00:42:09.550 and then peel that back to okay, if if this is where we 586 00:42:09.590 --> 00:42:12.630 are today and this is where we want to be, what do we need 587 00:42:12.670 --> 00:42:15.630 to do to get from Point A to point b? And that becomes the 588 00:42:15.710 --> 00:42:19.139 goals and the plan, and that should be done collaboratively with the team. 589 00:42:19.179 --> 00:42:22.179 And, as you said, when a new team member comes in or you 590 00:42:22.260 --> 00:42:24.860 buy a company at all sorts of things could change that. But you got 591 00:42:24.860 --> 00:42:28.940 to go through that process again. And the other thing I like to I 592 00:42:29.059 --> 00:42:32.809 think it's helpful to align teams and how they work together, is using some 593 00:42:34.010 --> 00:42:37.489 kind of survey like Myers Briggs or a whole brain or one of those, 594 00:42:37.889 --> 00:42:43.130 where people can understand how each other thinks and operates. Oh Yeah, their 595 00:42:43.170 --> 00:42:47.280 preferences. So, instead of why does so and so always ask for all 596 00:42:47.320 --> 00:42:52.039 the numbers and not trust their gut the way I do, etc. People 597 00:42:52.239 --> 00:42:55.760 begin to understand the differences and how they think and process information and that can 598 00:42:55.800 --> 00:43:00.949 be really helpful in team dynamics because that it becomes not personal but just so 599 00:43:01.110 --> 00:43:04.989 that's the way that person's wired and you can really work through it that way. 600 00:43:05.110 --> 00:43:08.110 So there's some really powerful things to do to help CEOS on that journey. 601 00:43:08.110 --> 00:43:10.590 And I as you said, that never end. It doesn't end and 602 00:43:10.829 --> 00:43:16.099 ever ends. It's a continue with process and you can certainly understand when people 603 00:43:16.219 --> 00:43:19.980 get tired of it at some point and to your point, that might be 604 00:43:20.099 --> 00:43:23.099 a time to bring in some help or, you know, set aside, 605 00:43:23.340 --> 00:43:27.170 find someone to replace you, that sort of thing, because it's a it 606 00:43:27.289 --> 00:43:30.809 takes a tremendous amount of energy to do that for a long period of time. 607 00:43:30.449 --> 00:43:34.969 Yep, and it and it all dove tails into your Inter your operating 608 00:43:35.010 --> 00:43:38.210 system of the company. Another thing I think is worth talking about and is 609 00:43:38.250 --> 00:43:43.440 really important. You mentioned investors, is when you're a CEO as investors, 610 00:43:43.480 --> 00:43:49.480 HM, suddenly your world's gone from a focus on customers and employees to having 611 00:43:49.519 --> 00:43:54.039 investors, and that's a whole nother level of management and learning how to you 612 00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:58.190 know, how to keep them informed, how to work with them so that 613 00:43:58.349 --> 00:44:01.269 they can help, to help them provide the most value they can to never 614 00:44:01.349 --> 00:44:06.389 let them be surprised. So we do a lot of talking and thinking and 615 00:44:06.750 --> 00:44:09.860 sharing in the forums about how to do that. Well, yeah, so 616 00:44:09.940 --> 00:44:14.340 that you're right. That's so important, lined with your investors to in age. 617 00:44:14.500 --> 00:44:15.900 Right, yeah, that's exactly right. Tell me, how did you 618 00:44:16.059 --> 00:44:20.460 how did you come to this framework? How'd you come about it? Did 619 00:44:20.539 --> 00:44:24.610 you end your cofounder also do a whole series of research? You talk to 620 00:44:24.610 --> 00:44:27.849 a lot of companies. How did you? How did you determine that this 621 00:44:28.010 --> 00:44:31.090 is the stages that companies go through? It was really experience, like working 622 00:44:31.210 --> 00:44:37.130 with companies that were at the different stages. And then Catherine Katlan, my 623 00:44:37.329 --> 00:44:43.320 partner, also co authored two books in conjunction with the Copman Foundation, and 624 00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:49.320 so these frameworks came from experience primarily, and they continue to evolve. Those 625 00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:51.599 are great book, by the way, leading at the speed of growth. 626 00:44:51.639 --> 00:44:54.510 Yeah, that one. Yeah, I mean I've had people say, Hey, 627 00:44:54.590 --> 00:44:58.510 that doesn't apply to me, and my response will be not yet. 628 00:44:58.550 --> 00:45:04.789 Ye, right, right. So well out, it's true. You can 629 00:45:04.869 --> 00:45:07.380 see, if you've gone through these different phases, you can see how well 630 00:45:07.420 --> 00:45:12.380 they're laid out and how well the book projects the phases that the company will 631 00:45:12.380 --> 00:45:16.059 go through and the changes that the team and the CEO will have to make 632 00:45:16.300 --> 00:45:20.900 Chan to sort of a transform to prepare for that. Am Yeah, and 633 00:45:21.059 --> 00:45:24.570 I think we go through every forum. We go through the frameworks quickly, 634 00:45:24.730 --> 00:45:28.969 but we go through where's a company, where's a CEO, where's a team, 635 00:45:29.130 --> 00:45:34.090 each time and I think there's some comfort in knowing that. You know 636 00:45:34.170 --> 00:45:37.880 you're going to hit turbulence. It's expected. So let's make sure you have 637 00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:39.719 the tools to navigate through that. And when you're on a growth curve, 638 00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:45.440 how to make sure he doesn't you don't get too loose with that one for 639 00:45:45.559 --> 00:45:51.190 example, one CEO who's been growing really fast. Just during this crisis, 640 00:45:51.510 --> 00:45:54.750 he is now really paying attention to cash in a way that he never did 641 00:45:54.789 --> 00:45:59.630 before. It before because you didn't really need to plenty of money in the 642 00:45:59.670 --> 00:46:02.510 bank, etc. But now, Oh my God, totally did. I 643 00:46:02.670 --> 00:46:10.699 think trying to always keep focused on that line of not being too overly aggressive 644 00:46:10.900 --> 00:46:15.219 but at the same time not shying away from growth. It's a constant balance 645 00:46:15.260 --> 00:46:19.530 and so one of the purposes, I think, of the forum is to 646 00:46:19.610 --> 00:46:23.449 at least quarterly recalibrate, right, because everybody shares a financials everybody shares our 647 00:46:23.489 --> 00:46:29.050 cash position. Everybody shares where they are and where they think they're going. 648 00:46:29.769 --> 00:46:36.039 So that's that's the other hugely important thing for CEO's role is managing the cash 649 00:46:36.119 --> 00:46:38.559 and the money, and that's what's obviously coming into play right now in this 650 00:46:38.679 --> 00:46:42.840 crisis in a big way. But that should always be top of mind, 651 00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:45.639 because you run out of money, there's no more company. Yeah, pertly, 652 00:46:45.760 --> 00:46:49.670 right, yeah, and the on behalf of all the CEOS who are 653 00:46:49.670 --> 00:46:52.429 members of the forum, I definitely thank you for creating something like that. 654 00:46:52.750 --> 00:47:00.110 It's hugely valuable and so important to the success of many companies in the past 655 00:47:00.190 --> 00:47:05.260 and going forward. It's just been so nice of you to say now, 656 00:47:05.380 --> 00:47:07.900 I thinks me happy. That's it really does, is yeah, what I 657 00:47:07.980 --> 00:47:12.500 want to do is be able to create something that's really valuable for people, 658 00:47:12.539 --> 00:47:15.579 and obviously it's the people that make it so. About try to provide the 659 00:47:15.659 --> 00:47:17.690 form for them to be able to shine. That way. We're running to 660 00:47:17.690 --> 00:47:21.570 the end of our time. Boogeer, have a question for you at well, 661 00:47:21.610 --> 00:47:23.650 an opportunity for you, and that is to send a message out to 662 00:47:23.690 --> 00:47:28.170 all the CEOS out there. What would you tell them right now, right 663 00:47:28.289 --> 00:47:32.360 now in the middle of this crisis. I would say make sure that you 664 00:47:32.519 --> 00:47:37.920 have the principles that you want to lead with really firm in your mind. 665 00:47:37.960 --> 00:47:42.079 I mean, I love this of keep your employees safe, continue to really 666 00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:45.110 focus on your customers, figure out how to mitigate the spread of this virus, 667 00:47:45.550 --> 00:47:50.429 have compassion and live your values. Communicate, communicate, communicate, be 668 00:47:50.590 --> 00:47:54.510 transparent with your employees and your customers. Were all in this together, and 669 00:47:55.429 --> 00:47:59.099 a little humor is helpful, I could say too. You know, and 670 00:47:59.219 --> 00:48:04.340 good luck with just traversing that line between optimism and pessimism. It's it's a 671 00:48:04.380 --> 00:48:07.059 judgment. Call and and lean on your teams. You think two things, 672 00:48:07.139 --> 00:48:10.019 John, you don't have to know at all. Right, as CEO, 673 00:48:10.420 --> 00:48:15.730 you have a team and employees and advisors for a reason. Reach out, 674 00:48:15.050 --> 00:48:20.170 reach out to each other and try to get help from each other. That's 675 00:48:20.690 --> 00:48:22.489 that's what I would say. Yeah, thanks so much for joining us, 676 00:48:22.530 --> 00:48:27.960 boos. I really appreciate it and thank you for asking me and obviously it's 677 00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:30.920 such a pleasure to work with you and we have worked together a long time. 678 00:48:31.000 --> 00:48:35.000 All right, all right, you take care to see him. Thanks, 679 00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:38.800 John By. Thanks for listening to this episode of the CEO Series on 680 00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:43.070 the BB growth show. Again, I'm John Bellas here from the CEO play 681 00:48:43.150 --> 00:48:45.070 book. I hope you enjoyed the conversation with Boushe as much as I did. 682 00:48:45.269 --> 00:48:47.989 One piece of advice to take away. While the CEO role can be 683 00:48:49.030 --> 00:48:52.590 a lonely one, you don't have to do it alone. Surrounding yourself with 684 00:48:52.750 --> 00:48:55.380 peers who are also on the journey to mastery can be the best way to 685 00:48:55.539 --> 00:48:59.659 up your game. To learn more about BOOGEA, Cookman and the high will 686 00:48:59.739 --> 00:49:05.500 CEEO warum visit Catlin and Cookman group. That's Catlin and Cookman Groupcom that's Catlin 687 00:49:05.539 --> 00:49:07.739 with the sea. Please connect with me on Linkedin, on the CEO Playbook 688 00:49:07.780 --> 00:49:12.329 Page and twitter at John Bellazier CEO. I'd love to hear from you, 689 00:49:12.809 --> 00:49:16.130 send questions my way or recommendations. If you like this episode, please leave 690 00:49:16.170 --> 00:49:19.809 a review and share it with a friend and if you have a question, 691 00:49:19.849 --> 00:49:23.559 join the discussion on Instagram at CEO Playbook DOTCO. We have a growing following 692 00:49:23.639 --> 00:49:28.519 there. We post inspiration, updates on new articles and more. Or visit 693 00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:31.639 our website at ceeo playbook DOTCO and don't forget to sign up for a popular 694 00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:37.079 weekly newsletter called Mental Candy. Until next time, keep pushing and stay healthy 695 00:49:37.119 --> 00:49:37.400 out there.