Cultivate an Evergreen Brand that Matches the Pace of Innovation w/ Aaron Cort

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:00.250 mhm 2 00:00:05.740 --> 00:00:10.370 Hey everyone welcome back to be to be growth. My name is Olivia Hurley and 3 00:00:10.370 --> 00:00:15.680 today I am joined by Aaron Court who is the VP of operations at click up, Aaron, 4 00:00:15.680 --> 00:00:20.510 how are you doing? Hey Olivia, thanks for having me doing great, my pleasure. 5 00:00:20.510 --> 00:00:23.220 I'm glad we get to talk. We've been trying to make this happen for a little 6 00:00:23.220 --> 00:00:29.940 while so I'm glad today is finally here Aaron the last time we spoke when we 7 00:00:29.940 --> 00:00:34.300 were just chatting about of the many things with your background being 8 00:00:34.300 --> 00:00:37.260 marketing, of the many things that you could speak to, Trying to find out that 9 00:00:37.260 --> 00:00:41.720 thread that we really wanted to pull. You said something that the brand 10 00:00:41.720 --> 00:00:46.310 should flow directly from your product or maybe another way of saying this is 11 00:00:46.310 --> 00:00:50.340 you should focus on product, lead branding. Um I was wondering if you 12 00:00:50.340 --> 00:00:53.760 could give some kind of depth and definition to that for us to kind of 13 00:00:53.760 --> 00:00:58.040 set our trajectory. Yeah, for sure. I mean everything for click up started 14 00:00:58.040 --> 00:01:02.040 with our product is the core focus creating an excellent experience around 15 00:01:02.040 --> 00:01:06.370 that. And branding really helps support that in its own way and it helps tell a 16 00:01:06.370 --> 00:01:10.800 story around it. But we do have what we really centered in on is an excellent 17 00:01:10.800 --> 00:01:13.930 and phenomenal like product experience for people and that's really how we 18 00:01:13.930 --> 00:01:18.860 grew as as fast as we did um organically um and then you know, as we 19 00:01:18.860 --> 00:01:22.290 continue to grow and they are in other areas marketing, be that with 20 00:01:22.300 --> 00:01:26.520 performance, marketing, digitally or a lot of the stuff we do with out of home. 21 00:01:26.530 --> 00:01:30.080 Those are just key areas. We've used to help support the product as an 22 00:01:30.080 --> 00:01:33.520 experience and tell that story, but it does all start with the product. So, I 23 00:01:33.520 --> 00:01:36.730 mean that's that's really what we've centered in on from the gecko and has 24 00:01:36.730 --> 00:01:41.360 been incredibly important to us. So if you could define some of the, like, 25 00:01:41.740 --> 00:01:45.340 major proponents of product lead branding, what would you say are some 26 00:01:45.340 --> 00:01:49.570 of the key ingredients? Yeah, I mean, I've talked about this in a couple 27 00:01:49.570 --> 00:01:53.610 different areas, but I mean it does start with focusing on, you know, rapid 28 00:01:53.620 --> 00:01:57.490 development cycles and rapid feedback iterations. That's probably the first 29 00:01:57.490 --> 00:02:00.470 thing. And, you know, when you're talking about product lead branding, I 30 00:02:00.470 --> 00:02:04.670 mean that that is allowing your product to have its own story that you're 31 00:02:04.670 --> 00:02:07.920 telling with the pace of innovation, but also with the pace. I wish you're 32 00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:11.330 able to listen to your community, but really in terms of just branding 33 00:02:11.330 --> 00:02:16.660 isolated, um, it does come down to like, core branding principles we have, we 34 00:02:16.660 --> 00:02:19.680 have an incredible team on the creative side that does a great job at this. But, 35 00:02:19.690 --> 00:02:22.550 you know, really telling the story of like, what's the value that you're 36 00:02:22.550 --> 00:02:26.590 driving for people more on, like what's the value rather than the what it is, 37 00:02:26.600 --> 00:02:31.360 uh more like classic feature benefit stuff. We've done stuff with our 38 00:02:31.360 --> 00:02:35.130 branding to, with billboards and things where we purposefully like had very 39 00:02:35.140 --> 00:02:39.310 vague yet intriguing messages like that, people to like be curious about it, but 40 00:02:39.310 --> 00:02:43.180 more so like, like stick in their mind. Um everyone has a different opinion of 41 00:02:43.180 --> 00:02:46.360 that kind of stuff, but with that said, it's worked for us um and it's been 42 00:02:46.370 --> 00:02:50.920 beneficial at least who are out of home to date. So I mean definitely focusing 43 00:02:50.920 --> 00:02:54.050 on the value of the messaging and what you're saying, which is just 44 00:02:54.060 --> 00:02:57.830 foundational branding stuff, but I mean third, if I had to come up with a third 45 00:02:57.830 --> 00:03:02.660 pillar really, it comes down to having everything like centric. So when you're 46 00:03:02.660 --> 00:03:07.260 thinking, brand, brand is an experience. So how does that experience match to 47 00:03:07.260 --> 00:03:10.750 what you're doing in every area of branding? Not just billboards, not just 48 00:03:10.750 --> 00:03:15.050 digitally, but the moment someone sees a billboard hits your website or, you 49 00:03:15.050 --> 00:03:18.010 know, watches an ad on Youtube, you know, it all feels like part of the 50 00:03:18.010 --> 00:03:22.250 same story and experience. So being centric and having like a holistic 51 00:03:22.250 --> 00:03:26.610 approach to it is basically the third thing I would call that with a product 52 00:03:26.610 --> 00:03:31.890 lead brand. Do you need to evolve the brand as much as you evolve and tweak 53 00:03:31.890 --> 00:03:36.960 the product? How do those things work? Synchronously, yeah, the product story 54 00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:39.930 and this just totally depends on the company, but ideally like the brand is 55 00:03:39.930 --> 00:03:43.030 what you're cementing into people's mind, right? So your brand actually 56 00:03:43.030 --> 00:03:46.840 shouldn't change as much for like what story, like core story you're telling 57 00:03:46.850 --> 00:03:50.110 the product though may change and reiterate, but ideally those changes 58 00:03:50.110 --> 00:03:54.150 and iterations or what you're building into, what is the foundational build up 59 00:03:54.150 --> 00:03:57.930 of the brand, the brand is the story you want to tell me that now, future, 60 00:03:57.940 --> 00:04:03.660 present or future looking. So the brand, in my opinion doesn't change as much, 61 00:04:03.660 --> 00:04:08.310 but it might become a more fluid story over time, but it's still telling the 62 00:04:08.310 --> 00:04:11.880 same things, right? Whereas like when you're releasing new product features 63 00:04:11.880 --> 00:04:14.290 and you're building and you're iterating there, it's a little bit 64 00:04:14.290 --> 00:04:17.970 different. So that's the one correlation I would call out. Were 65 00:04:17.970 --> 00:04:21.839 there specific questions you were asking yourself as you developed the 66 00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:26.360 evergreen brand and the developing the story that click up was going to tell 67 00:04:26.360 --> 00:04:30.090 where they're like, questions that you would think, oh, anybody could use 68 00:04:30.090 --> 00:04:31.960 these to kind of develop the story. 69 00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:36.780 Yeah. Among our team. I mean there was many discussions about this, about all 70 00:04:36.780 --> 00:04:39.870 the different things we could put on billboards for example, and it all came 71 00:04:39.870 --> 00:04:43.940 back to just keeping it simple um, and having something that was like centric 72 00:04:43.940 --> 00:04:47.550 to our product yet intriguing enough. So I mean really the big things that we 73 00:04:47.550 --> 00:04:50.980 did ask ourselves where everything you could think of in terms of, like what 74 00:04:50.980 --> 00:04:54.900 should we put on a billboard or which are brand B but we did get back to keep 75 00:04:54.900 --> 00:04:59.440 it simple, but be effective in terms of that simplicity with whatever messages 76 00:04:59.440 --> 00:05:02.680 you're trying to get across. So hopefully that clarifies on that one, 77 00:05:02.690 --> 00:05:07.340 definitely. So a little bit for maybe for the people who are a little bit 78 00:05:07.340 --> 00:05:11.320 like chicken or the egg, like which comes first, it sounds like very much 79 00:05:11.320 --> 00:05:14.570 that the product, you create, the product, you create the product 80 00:05:14.570 --> 00:05:20.370 experience and the brand flows from that. How as you're building the rest 81 00:05:20.370 --> 00:05:24.510 of the company's identity, how do you match everything to your brand? Is that, 82 00:05:24.520 --> 00:05:27.870 does brand need to infiltrate and permeate through the rest of the 83 00:05:27.870 --> 00:05:33.640 company? Or can it be this top customer experience brand is every single thing 84 00:05:33.640 --> 00:05:36.800 you do as a company. It's how your support team communicates, it's how 85 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:41.440 your sales team talks to customers. It's how your ads look. It's how you 86 00:05:41.450 --> 00:05:45.290 communicate on social media and respond to people. Brand is everything right? 87 00:05:45.290 --> 00:05:49.750 So it should be holistic across the board. I remember when I first joined 88 00:05:49.750 --> 00:05:53.060 the company, I was incredibly impressed with how, how we kept that like 89 00:05:53.060 --> 00:05:56.440 synchronized IQ across everything because we care a ton about support for 90 00:05:56.440 --> 00:06:00.370 example. So our brand is very apparent and consistent across our support team 91 00:06:00.370 --> 00:06:04.210 and other areas of the business, but it should be consistent in some way, shape 92 00:06:04.210 --> 00:06:07.620 or form across everything. It shouldn't feel like a disconnected experience and 93 00:06:07.620 --> 00:06:10.860 it does go back to experience. Brand is the company, but it's every touch point 94 00:06:10.940 --> 00:06:14.710 that you have with the business. So when you joined, where there are things 95 00:06:14.710 --> 00:06:19.920 that you were maybe little details are larger pieces that you were bringing to 96 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:24.490 match the brand or that maybe she can you share an example of like, it wasn't 97 00:06:24.490 --> 00:06:28.970 like the brand and then we did this too. Yeah, honestly, like we've been super 98 00:06:28.970 --> 00:06:32.730 dialed in with brand from the get go. Like from when I got here, Marcia's 99 00:06:32.740 --> 00:06:37.050 like is huge, huge proponent of marketing and you know, has been core. 100 00:06:37.050 --> 00:06:40.890 I mean, he's a product focused ceo in a lot of areas. So, you know, the brand 101 00:06:40.890 --> 00:06:44.760 and the product and having that extend out and having a holistic experience. 102 00:06:44.840 --> 00:06:48.970 Honestly, I can't really say I came in and, you know, had a bunch of ideas 103 00:06:48.970 --> 00:06:51.170 that we can better connect the brand. It was more things that were like 104 00:06:51.180 --> 00:06:54.720 layering on top of what we're already doing that's working well and making 105 00:06:54.720 --> 00:06:59.060 sure those things are consistent. So knowing that this was the stage that 106 00:06:59.060 --> 00:07:03.410 was set from the beginning, so maybe maybe drawing some comparisons from 107 00:07:03.410 --> 00:07:08.410 other companies then what results have you seen from this simple product lead 108 00:07:08.410 --> 00:07:14.220 brand that's very clean and allows for this creativity. Um yeah, it's a lot of 109 00:07:14.220 --> 00:07:18.160 to scale our marketing. I mean, we do a lot online, we do a lot on out of home 110 00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:23.170 media and other areas as well. Um but why not try and do a million things and 111 00:07:23.180 --> 00:07:26.720 keeping it centric, but still having a data driven approach. Um you know, 112 00:07:26.720 --> 00:07:30.220 we've been able to scale to a certain point now we're at the point of like 113 00:07:30.230 --> 00:07:34.120 refining things but still knowing what works. So essentially it's allowed us 114 00:07:34.120 --> 00:07:37.760 to scale up to where we are now, but also given us an opportunity to dive 115 00:07:37.760 --> 00:07:41.470 deeper in the core areas while still having a foundation built for the core 116 00:07:41.470 --> 00:07:45.610 programs on at least the marketing, creative and business side. Rest. I'm 117 00:07:45.610 --> 00:07:50.800 curious your take on why many companies might not have a product lead brand or 118 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:55.510 why other instances where somebody would choose because it would benefit 119 00:07:55.510 --> 00:08:00.440 them to have that or is product like lead brand maybe like a foray into the 120 00:08:00.440 --> 00:08:05.210 future approach. It totally depends on your product and industry like product 121 00:08:05.220 --> 00:08:09.180 Lead works for us because we're bottoms up software product right? But 122 00:08:09.180 --> 00:08:13.220 naturally we do have like top down instances and being product lettuce in 123 00:08:13.220 --> 00:08:18.480 centric to bottoms up or top down as isolated comparisons. I think at the 124 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:22.840 end of the day, if your product is what you're selling, whether it's to anybody 125 00:08:22.840 --> 00:08:27.030 on any level of and we're going to be to be standpoint, your product should 126 00:08:27.030 --> 00:08:30.290 be front and center, but you should be telling the story of your product and 127 00:08:30.290 --> 00:08:35.020 how that correlates and having the product experience match that. So, you 128 00:08:35.020 --> 00:08:39.980 know, the really simple answer is, I mean, I think cos this is kind of just 129 00:08:39.980 --> 00:08:44.210 like the right way to do marketing. I could be biased but you know, that's 130 00:08:44.220 --> 00:08:47.410 mostly I think what people are trying to learn, some people have to learn 131 00:08:47.420 --> 00:08:50.650 through experience. Like we've definitely done things that haven't 132 00:08:50.650 --> 00:08:53.470 worked and tested and that's that's also part of the experience, not 133 00:08:53.470 --> 00:08:56.480 everything has been perfect, but at the same time too, it's important to have 134 00:08:56.480 --> 00:09:02.460 that mentality as well. Has products led brand lead for more creativity and 135 00:09:02.460 --> 00:09:06.720 more of um we were talking a little bit about bringing in some of this BDC 136 00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:10.640 style marketing into the BdB places that played a part in it. Yeah, 137 00:09:10.650 --> 00:09:14.530 absolutely. I mean we definitely focus on like the more human experience to 138 00:09:14.530 --> 00:09:18.200 marketing and the nature of our product allows it to be that way. But you check 139 00:09:18.200 --> 00:09:21.900 out any of our videos on Youtube, we did a cool returning work series which 140 00:09:21.900 --> 00:09:26.160 is like a good articulation of like that creativity and BtC style being 141 00:09:26.340 --> 00:09:30.580 integrated with like a product that cars. So it absolutely has. Um and then 142 00:09:30.580 --> 00:09:33.660 also the nature of our product in our industry also open up things for that. 143 00:09:33.940 --> 00:09:37.460 But I think it's a broader trend where enterprise companies are starting to 144 00:09:37.460 --> 00:09:40.920 focus on more human approaches on how they approach their brand and their 145 00:09:40.920 --> 00:09:44.560 company when it comes to the public. And I see that happening. So I think 146 00:09:44.560 --> 00:09:47.710 there's a lot of things to consider. There. Are there any limitations to 147 00:09:47.710 --> 00:09:53.140 having a product led brand. I mean if you change your story. Um but that's 148 00:09:53.140 --> 00:09:56.250 like to anything right? I would say like you want to make sure you have 149 00:09:56.250 --> 00:09:58.970 product market fit and you know what you're doing before you start pushing 150 00:09:58.970 --> 00:10:02.570 that out, right? Because if you don't, it's really hard to change that once 151 00:10:02.570 --> 00:10:06.240 you've tried to cement it in people's minds now, like to truly do that well 152 00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:09.500 takes time, it takes money, it takes a lot of people. So those are all things 153 00:10:09.500 --> 00:10:12.590 to consider. But I would just make sure you have like product market fit now 154 00:10:12.590 --> 00:10:16.060 then, because if you don't then, you know, you don't want to guess with 155 00:10:16.070 --> 00:10:19.510 brand, you want to be pretty tapped into like what you're doing and why and 156 00:10:19.510 --> 00:10:22.950 how it matters, at least, foundational lee before you start pushing that stuff, 157 00:10:23.240 --> 00:10:27.730 were there great examples of product brands that you've emulated or if you 158 00:10:27.730 --> 00:10:31.470 kind of, you and your team at click up kind of had to write the playbook or 159 00:10:31.470 --> 00:10:34.980 rewrite the playbook in some ways. I mean there's companies that have done a 160 00:10:34.980 --> 00:10:38.200 lot of things. Well, I would say we've taken our own approach and pretty much 161 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:42.550 every area of creative and and approaches to performance marketing, 162 00:10:42.560 --> 00:10:46.230 but we do have similarities with other companies. I mean, I think Twilio has 163 00:10:46.230 --> 00:10:48.980 cool billboards to leo's done some cool stuff with their billboards and they're 164 00:10:48.980 --> 00:10:53.180 out of home, um that I haven't seen other software companies. Do you know, 165 00:10:53.180 --> 00:10:55.370 there's other companies that have done very well in the performance marketing 166 00:10:55.370 --> 00:10:59.360 side in different areas. We have competitors that spend a lot there and 167 00:10:59.540 --> 00:11:02.880 trying to do a lot. But yeah, Twilio has done some cool stuff without a home 168 00:11:02.880 --> 00:11:06.410 and brand specifically. I've always admired them. But I would say that like 169 00:11:06.420 --> 00:11:09.590 that's just one example. I think we've kind of taken our own approach every 170 00:11:09.590 --> 00:11:12.980 step of the way ourselves and I think that's also important so that you're 171 00:11:12.980 --> 00:11:16.690 kind of setting the standard in the pace, but we're also making unique 172 00:11:16.700 --> 00:11:19.500 creative decisions to your business. But still keeping in mind what other 173 00:11:19.500 --> 00:11:22.790 companies may or may not have done that have worked. Um like billboards have 174 00:11:22.790 --> 00:11:25.380 been around forever, right? It's kind of like if you choose to do it as a 175 00:11:25.380 --> 00:11:28.770 company or you don't, that's up to you. Also, there's other areas of marketing 176 00:11:28.770 --> 00:11:31.860 outside billboards, but that's just an example of where you know the way you 177 00:11:31.860 --> 00:11:36.470 do it or how you do it or when you go back to your digital experience, it's 178 00:11:36.480 --> 00:11:39.060 kind of up for you to set your own standard depending on your business. 179 00:11:39.440 --> 00:11:44.880 Yeah, Yeah. It sounds like this is like all marketing very nuanced. Very no one 180 00:11:44.880 --> 00:11:49.870 size fits all. But if we can take a peek into that playbook for a second. 181 00:11:49.870 --> 00:11:53.450 Like almost like flipping the script a little bit. Could you give us some 182 00:11:53.450 --> 00:11:57.600 parameters around how not to do product lead branding, like either some red 183 00:11:57.600 --> 00:12:01.810 flags you encountered or false starts or anything like that. Like just kind 184 00:12:01.810 --> 00:12:07.270 of give us like the warning signs, we should be watching out for sure. I mean 185 00:12:07.270 --> 00:12:10.600 I call this one out already, but making sure you have product market fit before 186 00:12:10.600 --> 00:12:13.780 you start trying to approach things that way because otherwise you won't do 187 00:12:13.780 --> 00:12:17.160 it correctly will be guessing. So that's definitely like a limitation to 188 00:12:17.160 --> 00:12:20.960 consider is like having product market fit before you go all in on brand or 189 00:12:20.970 --> 00:12:25.440 even focusing on products and branding outside of that. I mean, it just hands, 190 00:12:25.440 --> 00:12:29.030 it's like how you tell your story is equally important. It's focusing on 191 00:12:29.030 --> 00:12:32.370 value and benefits and just core marketing principles, but telling a 192 00:12:32.370 --> 00:12:36.420 story where people can connect to it. There's emotion, people feel human when 193 00:12:36.420 --> 00:12:39.800 they're watching it. Like that's great thing. Our creative team is tapped into 194 00:12:39.800 --> 00:12:42.780 a lot with a lot of our ads and everything in between. So, you know, 195 00:12:42.780 --> 00:12:46.050 those are just key call outs I would make is definitely the centric approach 196 00:12:46.050 --> 00:12:50.100 on product market fit and then yeah, taking a human creative approach to how 197 00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:53.700 you go about it, where people can actually connect to it on a very basic 198 00:12:53.700 --> 00:12:57.160 level. Um not not to focus on the high level, but depends on your market, 199 00:12:57.160 --> 00:12:59.560 depends on your audience, but I do think both of those are foundational. 200 00:13:00.040 --> 00:13:05.480 Were there indicators early on that you and knowing that you may not have been 201 00:13:05.480 --> 00:13:09.050 at the conception of this, but where they're indicators early on that you 202 00:13:09.060 --> 00:13:14.570 guys had nailed your story and that you'd really had product market fit, 203 00:13:14.570 --> 00:13:19.550 but also the story and the rest of the brand we're really right on and we're 204 00:13:19.550 --> 00:13:23.610 going to be successful, I'd say with brand, I mean it's it's it's ever 205 00:13:23.610 --> 00:13:27.150 evolving, I think things that we've received qualitative and quantitative 206 00:13:27.150 --> 00:13:30.390 feedback that there are things we've done well so far on the brand and we've 207 00:13:30.390 --> 00:13:34.950 been listening to that. Um but in terms of everything, I mean, the organic 208 00:13:34.950 --> 00:13:38.880 approach we took to the business from the get go that the company was focused 209 00:13:38.880 --> 00:13:43.440 on and how we grew, just literally 100% organically helped us find product 210 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:48.090 market fit faster, which made a lot of this easier. Now there's ups and downs 211 00:13:48.090 --> 00:13:53.230 with that journey itself, like any startup, but getting through that and 212 00:13:53.230 --> 00:13:57.090 getting that established is probably the biggest thing that helped us. I'm 213 00:13:57.090 --> 00:14:01.720 curious about what you hope to see in the B2B space moving forward, just 214 00:14:01.730 --> 00:14:05.080 knowing that that click up is doing something really awesome and it's 215 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:08.580 really working. Are you looking to see and hoping to see more product lead 216 00:14:08.580 --> 00:14:12.760 branding from other companies or you know, what, what are you hoping for? 217 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:17.740 I'm hoping more companies like take a unique approach to the way they 218 00:14:17.750 --> 00:14:21.260 approach putting their brand, their company out there. Um you know, we are 219 00:14:21.270 --> 00:14:24.770 all human beings and we're rolling on this planet for so much time. So when 220 00:14:24.770 --> 00:14:28.950 we, you know, waste our time not seeing great messaging about what people do, 221 00:14:28.950 --> 00:14:32.360 or companies who are, how they can help us. It's, you know, I think it's a 222 00:14:32.360 --> 00:14:35.420 waste. I think that like, companies should tap into their ethos a little 223 00:14:35.420 --> 00:14:39.430 bit more and especially on the baby side show a little bit more of like who 224 00:14:39.430 --> 00:14:43.310 they are and what they're doing for the world, including their customers, but 225 00:14:43.310 --> 00:14:46.440 just really tapping into that and taking an approach of like, why does 226 00:14:46.440 --> 00:14:49.580 this matter? Especially at least to the folks who want to see, you know, what 227 00:14:49.580 --> 00:14:51.990 you're putting out there, just depending on your product. So those are 228 00:14:51.990 --> 00:14:57.110 the things I hope to see, Yeah, what advice might you give a B2B market or 229 00:14:57.110 --> 00:15:03.600 just starting out of like start doing this, don't do this. Yeah. For me to be, 230 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:08.040 I mean, you need to understand what generates pipeline and understanding 231 00:15:08.040 --> 00:15:11.930 like the business fundamentals because that is foundational, but at the same 232 00:15:11.930 --> 00:15:17.060 time to understanding your industry very well, every BB industries is so 233 00:15:17.060 --> 00:15:20.770 nuanced, so between yeah, naturally understanding what drives the business 234 00:15:20.770 --> 00:15:24.100 for your particular business, but your industry, um you know, those are like 235 00:15:24.100 --> 00:15:27.660 the nuances you really want to tap into now, that can change over time. But 236 00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:31.000 core skills and core foundations are definitely just understanding how 237 00:15:31.000 --> 00:15:34.600 things work from a business fundamental standpoint, so that when you're taking 238 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:37.850 into consideration things like branding, like how does that affect the big 239 00:15:37.850 --> 00:15:41.530 picture of things, right? Because it does and it does help you just need to 240 00:15:41.530 --> 00:15:45.070 be able to understand that the core story that you can stack into a 241 00:15:45.070 --> 00:15:50.320 branding approach and whatever capacity a company does it outside of experience 242 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:54.440 and just being like boots on the ground marketing, what were some of the 243 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:58.790 resources or education that you gave yourself to learn about your industry? 244 00:15:58.790 --> 00:16:03.270 Learn about storytelling and branding, um storytelling and branding 245 00:16:03.270 --> 00:16:07.640 specifically. But honestly if I had to make any recommendation, like read 246 00:16:07.640 --> 00:16:12.810 books on branding, but like human psychology because human psychology is 247 00:16:12.810 --> 00:16:16.520 like the centerpiece of all of this and like what matters to people, there's 248 00:16:16.520 --> 00:16:19.640 tons of good books on human psychology but understanding what drives people 249 00:16:19.640 --> 00:16:22.870 and performance, I mean there's good stuff I like you know, Tony Robbins is 250 00:16:22.870 --> 00:16:25.360 one of the very well known people out there, but he actually has a very 251 00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:28.170 insightful thoughts on marketing in general just because he understands 252 00:16:28.170 --> 00:16:31.460 like people in psychology well, you know there's traditional books I've 253 00:16:31.460 --> 00:16:35.660 read on copyrighting and marketing like way back when But I mean honestly just 254 00:16:35.660 --> 00:16:39.510 understand like psychology psychology is the most important thing because 255 00:16:39.520 --> 00:16:43.210 that's literally the entire experience and then you can read stuff on branding 256 00:16:43.210 --> 00:16:47.310 and everything else that taps into that as well. But if you don't understand 257 00:16:47.310 --> 00:16:50.330 the brain and how it works and how people receive information, you know 258 00:16:50.330 --> 00:16:53.530 it's hard, there's cool things too, like a good topic to read into it, like 259 00:16:53.530 --> 00:16:57.390 neural linguistic programming because that's all about how you create 260 00:16:57.390 --> 00:17:00.990 connection with people. You can do it in different ways directly, but also on 261 00:17:01.000 --> 00:17:05.190 a bigger level. So like that's a cool topic to dive into. Just on a science 262 00:17:05.190 --> 00:17:08.730 of like influence and psychology sort of topic. So I'll throw that one out 263 00:17:08.730 --> 00:17:12.190 there as well. Have the things that you've been learning and and just 264 00:17:12.190 --> 00:17:16.890 consuming from various books and resources. Do they directly impact your 265 00:17:16.890 --> 00:17:21.520 work? And have you found that that those branches outside of traditional 266 00:17:21.520 --> 00:17:25.780 marketing have made you a better marketer? Um Yeah, for sure. I mean 267 00:17:25.790 --> 00:17:29.760 they've made me a good well rounded person, especially when it comes to 268 00:17:29.760 --> 00:17:33.370 like my work, but it helps, they don't do the work for you. They just give you 269 00:17:33.370 --> 00:17:37.630 ways to think about it. Um So most importantly, just feel comfortable like 270 00:17:37.630 --> 00:17:40.270 getting out there and trying stuff that's that's probably the biggest 271 00:17:40.270 --> 00:17:44.610 thing I can consider but definitely read stuff and ingest information, but 272 00:17:44.620 --> 00:17:47.440 I have a really good balance of where you're doing that and you're also 273 00:17:47.450 --> 00:17:51.240 taking action and then learning from your own experiences. If there was one 274 00:17:51.240 --> 00:17:56.270 thing that you wanted to stop seeing from B to B marketing, what might it be 275 00:17:57.340 --> 00:18:02.850 this bad marketing? Bad? It's bad. You know, this stuff that's like why did 276 00:18:02.850 --> 00:18:07.520 you do this or why no one thought about this or I don't know. Just bad can be 277 00:18:07.520 --> 00:18:13.230 relative qualify that for me a little bit. I'm curious about what that metric 278 00:18:13.230 --> 00:18:18.140 is. It sucks when you just see like a really shitty video on Youtube. That's 279 00:18:18.140 --> 00:18:21.300 an ad that plays all the time. But when it's like, it's, it's thought through 280 00:18:21.300 --> 00:18:24.750 and it's funny and it's well done or at least valuable. Like those are two 281 00:18:24.750 --> 00:18:28.380 different experiences, Right? 11 really bugs you and then obviously there's 282 00:18:28.380 --> 00:18:31.980 these different types of marketing and Seth Godin talks a lot about this, but 283 00:18:31.980 --> 00:18:34.630 there's like, there's permission based marketing and then there's interruption 284 00:18:34.630 --> 00:18:38.510 based marketing, right? So it's like thinking through context there when 285 00:18:38.510 --> 00:18:43.530 you're interrupting people, show them good stuff rather than the latter. So 286 00:18:43.530 --> 00:18:47.490 that's, that's all the stuff I would say. It's just bad bad ads. Bad ads 287 00:18:47.490 --> 00:18:51.680 suck. They, people always people's time. It's always engaging when you see 288 00:18:51.680 --> 00:18:54.680 something nice. That's actually an advertisement. So that's what I would 289 00:18:54.680 --> 00:18:57.510 say. That could be just like a billboard anywhere. Bad advertising 290 00:18:57.510 --> 00:19:02.540 sucks. If there was one take away you wanted listeners to get from this like 291 00:19:02.550 --> 00:19:08.130 here this and go do it and apply it. What would it be? Um, in general? Or 292 00:19:08.130 --> 00:19:13.830 like specific to product by branding? Both give me one of each. Okay. Product 293 00:19:13.840 --> 00:19:17.660 branding, make sure your product market fit first. That's the most important 294 00:19:17.660 --> 00:19:23.240 thing in general. Yeah, I understand people. People like what they care 295 00:19:23.240 --> 00:19:27.200 about what matters to them because that's product branding marketing. 296 00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:31.400 Everything is all so yeah, just those two things. That's what I would say. I 297 00:19:31.400 --> 00:19:35.450 love it. We get some marketing, we get some psychology, we get some general 298 00:19:35.630 --> 00:19:41.900 extra essential and human condition advice. I love that. Well erin for 299 00:19:41.910 --> 00:19:45.430 anyone who wants to connect with you, learn more about you and click up. 300 00:19:45.430 --> 00:19:49.130 Where can they find you? Where can they find? Click up, Yeah, click up, click 301 00:19:49.130 --> 00:19:54.000 up dot com. Easiest place. Where everywhere and then myself just get me 302 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:59.230 up on linkedin. That's typically where I spend my time on social media. I love 303 00:19:59.230 --> 00:20:03.950 it. Well thank you so much for joining me on GDP growth. Thanks Olivia 304 00:20:05.940 --> 00:20:09.860 is the decision maker for your product or service of B two B marketer. Are you 305 00:20:09.860 --> 00:20:14.070 looking to reach those buyers through the medium of podcasting? Considered 306 00:20:14.070 --> 00:20:19.290 becoming a co host of GDP growth. This show is consistently ranked as a top 307 00:20:19.290 --> 00:20:23.450 100 podcast in the marketing category of apple podcasts And the show gets 308 00:20:23.450 --> 00:20:29.020 more than 130,000 downloads each month. We've already done the work of building 309 00:20:29.020 --> 00:20:33.050 the audience so you can focus on delivering incredible content to our 310 00:20:33.050 --> 00:20:37.270 listeners. If you're interested email Logan at sweet fish media dot com