Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:07.910 It doesn't matter which one you choose. It just matters that you have the 2 00:00:07.950 --> 00:00:12.789 executive buy in to be inclusive and be a bridge builder between all experiences to 3 00:00:12.830 --> 00:00:16.190 make sure they're consistent and holistic, and that's the new pathway to growth. 4 00:00:17.789 --> 00:00:24.420 Marketing is no longer about attention. It's about context, and the implications extend 5 00:00:24.579 --> 00:00:30.780 far beyond your marketing team or your marketing function to the entire organization. My 6 00:00:30.859 --> 00:00:35.299 name is Ethan Butte. I'm the chief of angelist at bombomb and the host 7 00:00:35.420 --> 00:00:39.289 of the CX series here on B Tob Growth. You're about to listen in 8 00:00:39.490 --> 00:00:44.810 on a great conversation with Matt sweezy the principle of marketing insights at sales force. 9 00:00:45.409 --> 00:00:49.450 The work he's been doing over the past several years calls into questions so 10 00:00:49.649 --> 00:00:56.200 many foundations of the way we're doing marketing today. Attention versus context, limited 11 00:00:56.280 --> 00:01:02.159 media versus infinite media, who in your company should own customer experience and how 12 00:01:02.280 --> 00:01:04.790 to take a more human centered approach to the work that we do every day. 13 00:01:06.269 --> 00:01:11.629 Here's my conversation with Matt sweezy. Asking how can we make our marketing 14 00:01:11.670 --> 00:01:17.590 better is the wrong question. Instead, we need to ask why isn't our 15 00:01:17.709 --> 00:01:21.500 marketing working? When you ask why, you get much different answers, and 16 00:01:21.659 --> 00:01:25.420 that question and those answers are at the heart of the work being done by 17 00:01:25.500 --> 00:01:27.540 today's guest. He's been at sales force for seven and a half years, 18 00:01:27.540 --> 00:01:33.969 initially as an evangelist and presently as principle of marketing insights. He's the author 19 00:01:34.010 --> 00:01:38.849 of marketing automation for Dummies and the context marketing revolution, a new book that 20 00:01:38.849 --> 00:01:42.409 I've already pre ordered I'm really looking forward to. He's the producer and host 21 00:01:42.489 --> 00:01:48.000 of the Electronic Propaganda Society, a smart, valuable and even fun podcast series 22 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:52.280 that rightfully earned a stack of awards. He's a contributing writer for sites like 23 00:01:52.400 --> 00:01:56.519 Forbes, marketing props and convince and convert. He's a frequent keynote speaker who 24 00:01:56.519 --> 00:02:00.200 I finally saw speak and finally met in person at dreamforce recently. And he's 25 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:05.750 the cofounder of a brewery, Matthew sweezy. Welcome to the customer experience podcast. 26 00:02:06.390 --> 00:02:07.949 Thank you, than for having me. Yeah, really looking for to 27 00:02:07.990 --> 00:02:10.830 the conversation. Before we get go and just tell me a little bit about 28 00:02:12.030 --> 00:02:15.500 even tide brewing in Atlanta. How that come together, what's that look like 29 00:02:16.939 --> 00:02:23.300 at the craft brewery that me and a few other friends started? We just 30 00:02:23.379 --> 00:02:28.020 had our we just celebrated our sixth anniversary beginning of this month and yeah, 31 00:02:28.099 --> 00:02:30.330 so, I mean it's just kind of tagline. It is great. Doesn't 32 00:02:30.330 --> 00:02:32.650 have to be complicated, just a few friends making good beers and we sell 33 00:02:32.729 --> 00:02:37.129 all across the state of Georgia. Awesome. I will look for it when 34 00:02:37.129 --> 00:02:38.729 I get down to Georgia, which I'm planning to do the summer. It's 35 00:02:38.729 --> 00:02:43.889 a separate story. Let's start where we always start on the podcast, and 36 00:02:44.009 --> 00:02:46.960 I you have such a unique perspective on it. No, well, research 37 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:50.039 perspective, but we'll start the way I always ask it, which is your 38 00:02:50.120 --> 00:02:55.360 thoughts or characteristics or your definition of customer experience. Yes, there's two ways 39 00:02:55.400 --> 00:03:00.550 to answer that question. One is it's not up for me to define. 40 00:03:00.629 --> 00:03:02.349 It's up for each of our customers to de find in their own way, 41 00:03:02.710 --> 00:03:06.389 and I think that's actaid what the definition is. It's what I is someone 42 00:03:06.469 --> 00:03:08.550 perceived that they want the experience to be. I think we understand that. 43 00:03:08.669 --> 00:03:12.310 And then the flip side is then, how do we, as a brand 44 00:03:12.430 --> 00:03:15.259 fulfill that? and to me the experience is always the sum of all parts. 45 00:03:15.300 --> 00:03:19.419 Right, it's not one thing, it's the sum of everything that we 46 00:03:19.580 --> 00:03:23.659 do. We can use the term across the customer journey, but it's inclusive 47 00:03:23.699 --> 00:03:28.009 of marketing. It's inclusive but product experience, product use, support service. 48 00:03:28.449 --> 00:03:30.650 So to me I would put a capital ty and a capital e on the 49 00:03:30.849 --> 00:03:35.449 experience and assume that it's the sum of all things that we do. Love 50 00:03:35.449 --> 00:03:38.849 it. It touches on so many themes that people share. But you capture 51 00:03:38.169 --> 00:03:44.199 really concise fashion there and you talked about the entire customer life cycle there. 52 00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:47.479 And some of the research that you've done with some folks at sales force shows 53 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:54.830 that high performing marketing organizations are seventeen times better at collaborating across other departments, 54 00:03:54.909 --> 00:03:59.349 like you mentioned, sales, service, product, etc. Talk a little 55 00:03:59.389 --> 00:04:01.030 bit about that research and some of the tips that come out of it for 56 00:04:01.110 --> 00:04:04.030 folks who are listening. How can we collaborate better? Whether you're a market 57 00:04:04.069 --> 00:04:09.030 or not, the collaboration goes both ways. So give some give a little 58 00:04:09.030 --> 00:04:13.099 bit more context there and maybe some tips for people. Yeah, so the 59 00:04:13.180 --> 00:04:15.459 research. So every year it sales force, we do a state of marketing 60 00:04:15.500 --> 00:04:19.100 and over the past five years. The focus of that effort has really been 61 00:04:19.139 --> 00:04:25.170 to identify the key trace between high performing marketing organizations and everyone else, and 62 00:04:25.329 --> 00:04:30.009 just sord one's clear. These high performers are radically outperforming there ten times more 63 00:04:30.129 --> 00:04:34.290 likely to be, significantly being their direct competition. And then we start looking 64 00:04:34.329 --> 00:04:36.769 at what are those factors like? How are they actually able to do that? 65 00:04:38.290 --> 00:04:41.240 And, as you notice, one of the larger factors with this idea 66 00:04:41.319 --> 00:04:46.120 of collaboration. So the number one key trait of all high performers is executive 67 00:04:46.160 --> 00:04:49.000 buy into a new idea of marketing that's very much in line with the definition 68 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:53.310 of the experience that we just talked about. In fact, that new definition 69 00:04:53.389 --> 00:04:57.829 of marketing is that marketing is the owner and sustainer of all experiences, not 70 00:04:58.110 --> 00:05:01.189 just the creator of messages. It's a once that becomes the foundation. Then 71 00:05:01.189 --> 00:05:05.149 we start tactically looking at what high performers are doing, and it takes collaboration 72 00:05:05.269 --> 00:05:10.300 because, as we talked about, experience with a Capul t Accapitali has gross 73 00:05:10.379 --> 00:05:14.779 all touch points and only when you have collaboration can those things can be consistent 74 00:05:14.980 --> 00:05:18.379 and holistic and then create the experience that is required. I when you look 75 00:05:18.379 --> 00:05:21.529 at very specific use cases of saying all right, and it's some of these 76 00:05:21.569 --> 00:05:25.610 things are baffling, like it's not a radical idea, right, it's not 77 00:05:25.730 --> 00:05:28.370 like I never thought of that, like Duh, right, it's one of 78 00:05:28.370 --> 00:05:30.250 those kind of concepts. But then when we look at the actual task co 79 00:05:30.370 --> 00:05:35.160 execution of how well or organizations able to execute, I mean basic concepts of 80 00:05:35.279 --> 00:05:40.439 collaboration, like, take a simple example. Let's not market the people who 81 00:05:40.480 --> 00:05:44.639 are in the support Q. Pretty Simple. But what you might be surprised 82 00:05:44.680 --> 00:05:47.959 there's only one third of all businesses can actually do that. And it's because 83 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:51.509 the way that we've currently been structured as marketing is a department that sits outside 84 00:05:51.509 --> 00:05:56.149 sales of Zone, department, support, service, product, that all silod 85 00:05:56.189 --> 00:05:59.589 departments operating for their own goals. And I was talking to a company the 86 00:05:59.670 --> 00:06:02.189 other day and they see I tried to go over and talk to support and 87 00:06:02.269 --> 00:06:04.060 said, can I get a list of all the people and are in the 88 00:06:04.060 --> 00:06:09.180 supports you so I can suppress them from this outcoming marketing email, and the 89 00:06:09.300 --> 00:06:12.579 answer that the support team gave them was no, that's my data, you 90 00:06:12.660 --> 00:06:15.740 can't have it. Right. So when we face it in and that's not 91 00:06:15.819 --> 00:06:17.889 the only company. A lot of US face these problems. So to overcome 92 00:06:17.889 --> 00:06:21.610 these it's a couple of things. One is your executives have to understand that 93 00:06:21.730 --> 00:06:28.009 the highest economic output that you can produce is the experience. Right, eighty 94 00:06:28.050 --> 00:06:30.930 four percent of consumers say the experience is just as important as the product or 95 00:06:31.009 --> 00:06:35.000 service. It is a new product that we are selling in one might say 96 00:06:35.040 --> 00:06:39.839 it's the greater of the products because it is everything and it touches all things, 97 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:44.319 where's product usage is only a small sliver of the total time. And 98 00:06:44.560 --> 00:06:46.920 those are some basic concepts and ideas, but it, you know, just 99 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:48.709 the idea of experience has to go through it, and that's what high performers 100 00:06:48.709 --> 00:06:51.829 are doing. They have the executive buy in and it allows them to have 101 00:06:51.949 --> 00:06:57.069 that collaboration. Yeah, I mean you really get to the one of the 102 00:06:57.149 --> 00:07:00.069 main reasons I started this podcast was out of partly out of my own interest 103 00:07:00.230 --> 00:07:03.579 in this. It's like we all get it. It's super important. Product 104 00:07:03.660 --> 00:07:09.339 parity is through the roof hyper competition. The experience is more important than ever 105 00:07:09.740 --> 00:07:14.779 and, to your observation, probably the most important thing. And yet when 106 00:07:14.819 --> 00:07:18.089 it comes to executing it's really difficult because even in a healthy culture we can 107 00:07:18.129 --> 00:07:21.449 start to feel Silod so I love that you go to executive buy in there. 108 00:07:21.930 --> 00:07:26.410 I'll just one more follow up on that. Talk about the consequences. 109 00:07:26.490 --> 00:07:30.000 Like let's assume that a company's executive team is bought in on this idea that 110 00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:34.920 capital, t capital ev experience is the most important thing. Talk about the 111 00:07:35.040 --> 00:07:43.079 effect on like the relationship between CMO, Cro and Cxo, chief experience officer. 112 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:46.389 I know that you've read and spoken a bit on that, like what 113 00:07:46.509 --> 00:07:50.430 are you seeing around these titles and in the relationships with team tween these people 114 00:07:50.430 --> 00:07:56.670 acronyms? You left one off to that was CGEO, chief growth officer. 115 00:07:57.189 --> 00:07:59.980 So really, you know, when we when we start to talk about the 116 00:08:00.060 --> 00:08:03.459 tactle, the tactical execution of these ideas, and we start to say if 117 00:08:03.540 --> 00:08:07.579 marketing and it's old format is no longer what we are now doing, then 118 00:08:07.660 --> 00:08:13.209 the old executive no longer is appropriate, right, and so the CMO being 119 00:08:13.250 --> 00:08:15.889 the old executive. And actually, you know, it's interesting. If you've 120 00:08:15.930 --> 00:08:18.490 not been in the marketing field for a while, you might not know that 121 00:08:18.649 --> 00:08:22.850 Cmo was a pretty new term. It came out as digital came out right 122 00:08:22.889 --> 00:08:26.089 when digital marketing came out the truly when CMO comes out in the foretpront. 123 00:08:26.129 --> 00:08:28.319 Before that, I was VP of sales and marketing for most the organizations, 124 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:33.919 of VP of marketing for other organizations. Now that we move forward, right, 125 00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:37.799 and Cemo took on the roles of digital branding, advertising, all those 126 00:08:37.840 --> 00:08:41.269 different aspects, email direct now we start to say to the experience, right, 127 00:08:41.309 --> 00:08:43.350 and so there's two ways to look at experience. One, as you 128 00:08:43.429 --> 00:08:46.629 can say, we are going to focus on experience and that is just a 129 00:08:46.750 --> 00:08:50.669 term. The other flip side of the same coin is to say that we 130 00:08:50.750 --> 00:08:54.149 are going to look at growth. So it's either a chief experience officer or 131 00:08:54.269 --> 00:08:56.659 cheeth growth officer that we see is kind of driving a lot of these. 132 00:08:56.740 --> 00:09:01.220 We also still have the CRO chief revenue officer, and that also could be 133 00:09:01.259 --> 00:09:05.820 looking at growth, and just depends on how they use the definition. What 134 00:09:05.940 --> 00:09:09.019 really I see one of those three formats, either chief experience, chief growth 135 00:09:09.059 --> 00:09:13.490 or cheap revenue officer, really being the future leader of the marketing organization, 136 00:09:13.690 --> 00:09:16.690 because they're focused on a holistic goal and that holistic goal is growth by a 137 00:09:16.809 --> 00:09:20.090 better experience. And we say growth at the exact same word is revenue. 138 00:09:20.370 --> 00:09:24.759 So it doesn't matter if your CROCGEOC exo. That really is the future. 139 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:28.440 But that leader when us be clear on what that leader must do. That 140 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:33.600 job is to create a connected experience. They must be the one who says, 141 00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:37.320 all right, we increase revenue not by just selling more product, but 142 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:41.029 by creating a better experience across the entire life cycle. That's just as important 143 00:09:41.070 --> 00:09:43.909 for us to create a good service and connect that to marketing and messaging, 144 00:09:43.590 --> 00:09:48.029 just as much as it is to put New People into the pipeline and service 145 00:09:48.110 --> 00:09:50.629 them all the way through. So yes, I think all three of those 146 00:09:50.669 --> 00:09:52.539 are accurate and doesn't matter which one you choose. It just matters that you 147 00:09:52.659 --> 00:09:58.539 have the executive buy into be inclusive and be a bridge builder between all experiences 148 00:09:58.700 --> 00:10:01.139 to make sure they're consistent and holistic. And that's the new pathway to growth. 149 00:10:01.460 --> 00:10:03.019 Love it. I'm going to I'm going to give you a couple of 150 00:10:03.059 --> 00:10:07.330 your own quotes and ask you one follow up before we get onto the context 151 00:10:07.409 --> 00:10:13.090 marketing revolution, new book jure Pror Business Press. Right, I might ask 152 00:10:13.090 --> 00:10:16.809 about that relationship to because that's fool publisher. But but before you just a 153 00:10:16.850 --> 00:10:20.720 couple quotes of yours. Marketing creates experiences, not messages. Your brand isn't 154 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:24.399 what you say, it's to some of all experiences you create. Right, 155 00:10:24.600 --> 00:10:28.080 I think you've already touched on some of these teams already, but talk about 156 00:10:28.120 --> 00:10:31.039 just because it has been a background thing as I've been talking with a variety 157 00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:33.559 of people in a variety of seats in a conversation like the one we're having 158 00:10:33.559 --> 00:10:39.509 now. Talk about your view of brand experience and customer experience. Are they 159 00:10:39.669 --> 00:10:43.389 synonymous or is it just semantic and you don't even care? It's not interesting 160 00:10:43.470 --> 00:10:46.549 to you? I'm more on the second of it's just semantics, because what 161 00:10:46.750 --> 00:10:50.139 is brand? Well, brand is the sum of all experiences, right, 162 00:10:50.139 --> 00:10:52.659 and if that's what we define as brand, or so I mean it, 163 00:10:54.539 --> 00:10:56.659 and then how you tactually execute those could be different things. Right. Is 164 00:10:56.740 --> 00:11:00.980 the tactical execution? Is the goal of the marketing to drive and engagement, 165 00:11:01.019 --> 00:11:03.059 a move the person forward into a customer journey? That's much going to be 166 00:11:03.139 --> 00:11:07.529 much more of a customer Experience Marketing Initiative. Where is what? If the 167 00:11:07.610 --> 00:11:09.169 goal is just to make sure people are aware of us, know who we 168 00:11:09.289 --> 00:11:13.210 are? That's much more of a traditional brand ie, just becoming aware of 169 00:11:13.289 --> 00:11:16.169 who we are and what our mission and what our ideas are. So to 170 00:11:16.289 --> 00:11:20.720 me they're both the exact same thing, because I believe brand is the sum 171 00:11:20.759 --> 00:11:24.000 of all experiences that you that you create. And the reason I say that 172 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:26.279 it's because you can tell the world all the messages, you can say this 173 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:28.879 is who we are, you can put all the pretty pictures up, you 174 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:33.230 can just have the best copy and best advertising in the world. That's branding. 175 00:11:33.909 --> 00:11:35.509 But as soon as they interact with you in any way, shape or 176 00:11:35.549 --> 00:11:39.710 form, if that's not consistent with the message or the projection or the expectation 177 00:11:39.789 --> 00:11:43.950 that you've set, then you're you don't how a brand right, because the 178 00:11:45.110 --> 00:11:48.940 sum is they found something radically different and now they feel load too. Hence 179 00:11:48.259 --> 00:11:52.580 you now I have a very bad brand. So to me it's it's a 180 00:11:52.659 --> 00:11:54.340 lot of some of all experiences, and they're really the same thing to me. 181 00:11:54.820 --> 00:12:00.259 Yep, good. And it's not just it's not just that it can 182 00:12:00.340 --> 00:12:03.809 go terribly bad. I mean, did that disconnect just plane create confusion? 183 00:12:03.330 --> 00:12:07.610 Not even which, of course, as a negative sentiment as well. So 184 00:12:07.809 --> 00:12:11.769 the context marketing revolution, how to motivate buyers in the age of infinite media. 185 00:12:11.889 --> 00:12:15.840 Full title of the book. That is you know, this will be 186 00:12:15.960 --> 00:12:18.480 released, I think, a little bit before the book more released. Yeah, 187 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:22.320 this episode will be a little bit before it. Before we get into 188 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:26.480 some of the themes and topics, when did you know that this was a 189 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:28.279 book that you wanted to write? Like, why did you? Because you're 190 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:31.070 you know, you're studying these things, you're talking about them, you're teaching 191 00:12:31.149 --> 00:12:35.350 them, etcetera. Like. When did you say I need to round this 192 00:12:35.389 --> 00:12:39.950 up and put it in a book? Yeah, so I don't know when 193 00:12:39.110 --> 00:12:41.789 that was. I think it probably came down to when I was doing the 194 00:12:41.870 --> 00:12:46.820 research. And just so I'm always constantly researching topics and researching things, and 195 00:12:46.940 --> 00:12:50.139 one of the things I was trying to research was what is the cost of 196 00:12:50.220 --> 00:12:52.019 marking going to be in the future? And when I started to look at 197 00:12:52.059 --> 00:12:54.539 that, that required me to say, all right, if what is the 198 00:12:54.620 --> 00:12:58.889 cost to break through the noise? And then that one more step was we 199 00:12:58.009 --> 00:13:01.049 now need to start measuring the noise. So I started measuring noise fro one 200 00:13:01.049 --> 00:13:05.929 thosand nine hundred all the way through and projected to twenty thirty best as I 201 00:13:05.009 --> 00:13:09.490 could. And then when I started to find out was how we started to 202 00:13:09.570 --> 00:13:13.759 think about these things and the environments that marketing is taking place in a radically 203 00:13:13.799 --> 00:13:18.879 different from the fundamental level, from a media theory level, and so once 204 00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:22.480 I started to realize that and realize that the iterations that we continue to iterate 205 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:28.149 upon we're specific games that were created for a specific environment and that no longer 206 00:13:28.389 --> 00:13:31.590 is true, that's really when I decided that, all right, this is 207 00:13:31.830 --> 00:13:33.509 this is big. We need to really think about this and focus on this, 208 00:13:35.149 --> 00:13:37.509 because this is not an iteration on old marketing ideas. Right, iterating 209 00:13:37.549 --> 00:13:41.389 on old ideas will not carry us forward into the future. Back to the 210 00:13:41.820 --> 00:13:43.899 quote you opened up with, we ask how do we be better? We 211 00:13:45.019 --> 00:13:48.860 simply take the ideas and foundations and iterate upon them. Well, if the 212 00:13:48.899 --> 00:13:52.940 foundational ideas are no longer correct, we're iterating upon something and creating something bad. 213 00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:56.090 So we have to question those foundations and I think when I realized and 214 00:13:56.250 --> 00:14:01.730 did the research on noise, been found that we entered a new media environment, 215 00:14:01.769 --> 00:14:03.289 that that's really when I decided that, hey, this is important, 216 00:14:03.289 --> 00:14:07.169 we should talk about this. Cool, I think, since I have not 217 00:14:07.289 --> 00:14:09.450 read the book, I think one way to get at it is through the 218 00:14:09.529 --> 00:14:11.879 title and we're right on the doorstep of this one. Talk about what you 219 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:16.360 mean by infinite media and what are its consequences, because that really is the 220 00:14:16.519 --> 00:14:22.440 crux of a lot of this totally so infinite media. So if we follow 221 00:14:22.559 --> 00:14:26.990 media theory, which is really kind of spearheaded by Marsh mccluhan, harold and 222 00:14:26.149 --> 00:14:31.149 its Neal Postman, it's essentially a theory that says human behavior is dictated by 223 00:14:31.190 --> 00:14:35.830 the media environment that surround them. Right, and when we think about media 224 00:14:35.830 --> 00:14:39.980 environment, it's not twitter, social media, it it's something much greater, 225 00:14:39.340 --> 00:14:43.100 you know, just like the basic concepts of how the printing press took the 226 00:14:43.139 --> 00:14:46.899 world out of the Dark Ages and into the age of enlightenment. So infinite 227 00:14:46.940 --> 00:14:50.539 media is in contrast to limited media. And before two thousand and nine, 228 00:14:50.539 --> 00:14:54.490 based on my mathematics, that was the limited media environment and that meant three 229 00:14:54.529 --> 00:15:00.769 specific things. Media was limited in terms of creation, in terms of distribution 230 00:15:00.889 --> 00:15:05.490 in terms of total consumption. So when those three things are limited, that's 231 00:15:05.490 --> 00:15:09.039 a very specific environment and we play a very specific game within that environment. 232 00:15:09.080 --> 00:15:13.039 Right, and if you look at who had access, you know, to 233 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:18.840 overcome any one of those barriers it required capital. So bright from predominantly noise 234 00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:22.789 was created by businesses. There was a monopoly, and then would after two 235 00:15:22.830 --> 00:15:26.029 thousand and nine what we find is that the individuals creating their own media, 236 00:15:26.070 --> 00:15:31.029 right on social media, on email, as well as their devices, they 237 00:15:31.149 --> 00:15:33.549 now are the largest creators of noise, since noise is very different, and 238 00:15:33.789 --> 00:15:37.700 also it follows a very different pattern where they continue to create more and more 239 00:15:37.820 --> 00:15:41.860 and more and from more players. So we see an infinite level of noise 240 00:15:41.940 --> 00:15:46.179 rising. Right, there's no barriers to creation, there's no barriers to distribution 241 00:15:46.539 --> 00:15:50.009 and there's an infinite amount of content available for apt for access. What this 242 00:15:50.129 --> 00:15:54.090 really means is that consumers now operate in a different world and they have different 243 00:15:54.169 --> 00:16:00.250 decisionmaking tools and they have different decisionmaking processes. So the way that marketing was 244 00:16:00.330 --> 00:16:04.519 raist and crafted was to say we are here to motivate individuals given a specific 245 00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:08.519 set of circumstances of how they make decisions. What I'm arguing for saying all 246 00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:12.720 right, consumers now have a radically different decision making process and the role of 247 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:18.480 marketing now is radically different, which much, much must match that process based 248 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:21.269 on the environment. So, along with the short, infinite media means that 249 00:16:21.509 --> 00:16:26.190 now consumers are in control and how we motivate them is not by grant copy 250 00:16:26.549 --> 00:16:30.629 or single advertising campaigns where we said something so created we got them to take 251 00:16:30.669 --> 00:16:33.700 action. Rather, we must understand that these things now take plays across a 252 00:16:33.779 --> 00:16:38.220 long series. Everything is a journey and motivation is done by guiding individuals by 253 00:16:38.299 --> 00:16:42.580 step by step across that journey, not by trying to get them to skip 254 00:16:42.700 --> 00:16:47.370 steps. So it's pretty much the basis. Yep, it makes perfect sense, 255 00:16:47.529 --> 00:16:49.889 and that's just to tie it back for people that that haven't tied it 256 00:16:49.970 --> 00:16:53.129 back in their own heads already. That is why this iterative approach is, 257 00:16:53.210 --> 00:16:57.970 how do we make it better? Does not apply because it we're just building 258 00:16:59.009 --> 00:17:00.919 on old blocks. Is Funny. I remember reading a book. It's called 259 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:08.519 scientific advertising. Is like a either a thin booker really amazing pamphlet that's decades 260 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:11.960 and decades old and it's basically so much when I think about a lot of 261 00:17:12.160 --> 00:17:15.670 digital advertising right now. In the iterative approach, you know we can we 262 00:17:15.750 --> 00:17:19.109 can do a be test faster, but essentially it's the same thing this guy 263 00:17:19.190 --> 00:17:25.230 was writing about in direct mail and magazine adds decades and decades and decades ago. 264 00:17:25.390 --> 00:17:26.789 So, you know, we feel like we're so well equipped in the 265 00:17:26.829 --> 00:17:30.539 pace of things as fast, but still it's an iterative approach. Nonetheless. 266 00:17:30.859 --> 00:17:34.380 Let's go to the front side of the title of the book, the Context 267 00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:37.779 Marketing Revolution. I think revolution is already baked in. I think it. 268 00:17:38.259 --> 00:17:42.380 Anyone that's listening to what you're talking about in and the consequences of the age 269 00:17:42.420 --> 00:17:48.049 of infinite media sees that this is revolutionary. But talk a little bit about 270 00:17:48.049 --> 00:17:52.210 context marketing. What is context in this context? Yeah, yeah, so 271 00:17:52.690 --> 00:17:56.089 the context is once again, it's in contrast is something. It's in contrast 272 00:17:56.170 --> 00:18:00.559 to the word attention. So the foundation of marketing in the limits of media 273 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:03.359 era was how do we break through, grab someone's attention and get them to 274 00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.640 do what we want? Right, that was how we motivated people to Action. 275 00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:08.960 Now when we see is we motivate people by context, and that really 276 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:14.509 has a couple of factors. One saying that with infinite media we now have 277 00:18:14.589 --> 00:18:18.869 an intermediary between brands and individuals. That intermediary is artificial intelligence. Will Ai 278 00:18:19.190 --> 00:18:22.869 is only going to let through what is contextual to that individual for the moment, 279 00:18:23.190 --> 00:18:26.779 because that's which generates the highest engagement, and you can see. Look 280 00:18:26.779 --> 00:18:30.940 at any social feed, look at anything that's mediated by digital by the by 281 00:18:32.019 --> 00:18:34.660 Ai, and you will see at the contextual feed, your Google search results, 282 00:18:34.700 --> 00:18:37.460 you're the results are specific to you in the context of you in that 283 00:18:37.579 --> 00:18:41.809 moment. Right. You look at social media, that feed is the contextual 284 00:18:41.849 --> 00:18:45.730 feed. That our chronological feed. You look at your email inbox right in. 285 00:18:45.809 --> 00:18:48.569 The list goes on and on and on. And so, for number 286 00:18:48.650 --> 00:18:51.450 one, for a marketing to break through, it has to be in context 287 00:18:51.569 --> 00:18:55.289 of the moment. That's key number one for context. Key number two is 288 00:18:55.369 --> 00:18:59.039 that context also means. What does it mean to the individual? So we 289 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:00.519 got on this big kick of content marking. Right, all we need to 290 00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:04.480 do is create content. But the problem is no individual ever said Damn, 291 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:08.759 I want content today. So what they want, if they want something that's 292 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:11.750 contextual, to help them solve a goal, bry, and that's really the 293 00:19:11.789 --> 00:19:15.390 definition of the tactical execution of context, is how do we help, being 294 00:19:15.430 --> 00:19:19.670 into the individuals, solve the goal of the moment and by helping them accomplish 295 00:19:19.750 --> 00:19:23.190 that goal we build the trust we need. Right and doesn't matter where it 296 00:19:23.230 --> 00:19:26.339 is, we break through because we can help them with that moment we didn't 297 00:19:26.339 --> 00:19:29.740 build the trust we need, and then we're able to leverage that moment to 298 00:19:29.819 --> 00:19:32.859 guide them to the next step and by doing that we then are able to 299 00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:36.299 then generate the demand by guiding people, by saying we're going to take this 300 00:19:36.460 --> 00:19:38.289 and keep you going down this path. But then that's kind of the basic 301 00:19:38.329 --> 00:19:45.609 concepts. That's really a concept of context. In the contrast to attention everybody 302 00:19:45.809 --> 00:19:49.170 logan with sweet fish here, I had to take just a second today to 303 00:19:49.289 --> 00:19:56.000 share with you another podcast that's in my regular listening rotation. The sales engagement 304 00:19:56.039 --> 00:20:00.279 podcast has some great interviews and you pick up a lot of best practices from 305 00:20:00.319 --> 00:20:04.640 revenue leaders that are doing the job day in and day out. I've picked 306 00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:08.230 up so much learning from other sales leaders that are featured on the show. 307 00:20:08.549 --> 00:20:15.029 One of my favorites is seven things marketing wish sales knew about nurturing leads. 308 00:20:15.430 --> 00:20:18.710 So check out the sales engagement podcast wherever you do, you're listening and by 309 00:20:18.710 --> 00:20:22.940 the way, if you're not following Scott Barker on Linkedin, you should do 310 00:20:22.019 --> 00:20:26.500 that too. All right, let's get back to the show. For folks 311 00:20:26.500 --> 00:20:30.099 who are listening normally we'd wait to the end of the episode, but I'll 312 00:20:30.099 --> 00:20:33.900 just go ahead and say it for you. The context marketing revolution is available 313 00:20:33.900 --> 00:20:36.769 for preorder. You can pre order on Amazon. That's what I did. 314 00:20:37.690 --> 00:20:40.009 You know, if you like these ideas, and I'll transition, there's a 315 00:20:40.130 --> 00:20:41.529 there's a way you can get a preview of a lot of these ideas too, 316 00:20:41.569 --> 00:20:45.849 in a really cool format, but really quickly. Now. Did you 317 00:20:45.970 --> 00:20:48.250 build a proposal and shop at to different publishers? How'd you get connected with 318 00:20:48.289 --> 00:20:53.000 Harvard Business? Yeah, so I wrote an outline, roaded draft and then 319 00:20:53.119 --> 00:20:57.160 pitched it to a bunch of different publishers. So I had three publishers willing 320 00:20:57.200 --> 00:21:02.400 to publish it. Then when Harvard's one of them, Harvard Business, who's 321 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:04.509 who doesn't want who has been dream of being published by Harvard Business, I 322 00:21:04.630 --> 00:21:07.509 was like sure, let's let's have you guys publish it. That's how it 323 00:21:07.549 --> 00:21:14.390 happened. Awesome. Congratulations. For people who like these ideas and are in 324 00:21:14.509 --> 00:21:18.029 anticipation of the book itself, I want to offer that you can go to 325 00:21:18.509 --> 00:21:21.859 itunes or apple podcast, wherever you listen to podcast, wherever you listen to 326 00:21:21.900 --> 00:21:26.900 the customer experience podcast, and go search electronic Propaganda Society Award winning series, 327 00:21:27.380 --> 00:21:32.539 incredibly well produced, unlike this one in so many other podcasts, not interview 328 00:21:32.660 --> 00:21:37.450 based. You know, it lays out all of these theories over and ideas 329 00:21:37.529 --> 00:21:41.890 and research over nine episodes in so I guess just to open it up on 330 00:21:42.049 --> 00:21:47.089 on the electronic propaganda society, what were you trying to deliver in terms of 331 00:21:47.160 --> 00:21:51.559 experience, like, why the audience format and why this style of production? 332 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:55.640 Maybe? Yeah, a couple of reasons. One, I'm a creator, 333 00:21:56.000 --> 00:21:57.799 just I think most of us are, and I wanted to create some Rad 334 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:03.269 right, just pure passion project, no bounds, see how far I can 335 00:22:03.349 --> 00:22:07.829 push and see how radically creative I can be with something, and so I've 336 00:22:07.950 --> 00:22:11.109 created that format. Right. So it's not a traditional podcast, it's not 337 00:22:11.190 --> 00:22:15.900 interview based. It's a basic very much off cereal. So it's a nine 338 00:22:15.220 --> 00:22:21.299 series episode that tells a single story and then it's heavily researched, heavily produced, 339 00:22:21.660 --> 00:22:25.380 just because I wanted to do it that way and I thought that's would 340 00:22:25.380 --> 00:22:30.130 make a good experience and make a really cool make something that people would enjoy. 341 00:22:30.410 --> 00:22:33.569 You know, it's very different than anything that's out there and it's why 342 00:22:33.569 --> 00:22:37.170 I want so many creative awards for it when it came out. So believe 343 00:22:37.210 --> 00:22:40.930 I've got five creative awards for it currently. But yes, that was it 344 00:22:41.049 --> 00:22:44.210 and and it's super red and it's something like you've never heard before and that 345 00:22:44.319 --> 00:22:48.400 was kind of the point. I agree completely and and it really does tea 346 00:22:48.440 --> 00:22:51.480 up all the stuff we've been talking about so far. I love it as 347 00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:56.359 a compliment to having seen you present on some of these topics and an anticipation 348 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:00.390 of the forthcoming book. I think they're probably a lot of connections with the 349 00:23:00.549 --> 00:23:03.670 obviously are a lot of connections between them. What were some of your inspirations, 350 00:23:03.789 --> 00:23:07.190 like, are you a podcast listener or you know, like, what 351 00:23:07.269 --> 00:23:11.109 were some of your inspirations? Is You're like trying to create something that was 352 00:23:11.150 --> 00:23:15.380 awesome for you. So I don't listen to mini podcast. I think it 353 00:23:15.460 --> 00:23:18.900 listened to. I think I made it almost all the way through cereal, 354 00:23:19.500 --> 00:23:26.259 but I think just just radical formats of content. Write a great a great 355 00:23:26.380 --> 00:23:30.890 documentary, a great document series, and I just figured that it was easier 356 00:23:30.930 --> 00:23:33.410 to do by a podcast and any other format. So I did it by 357 00:23:33.529 --> 00:23:38.130 the PODCAST. For Inspiration, definitely serial. I researt to a friend of 358 00:23:38.170 --> 00:23:44.000 mine WHO's a producer at w whatever the public radio station is in New York, 359 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.880 about my brain stopped. But read some books sound reporting. That was 360 00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:52.759 written by MPR. So kind of just you know, audio how to do 361 00:23:52.839 --> 00:23:56.710 those things. But really just listened to podcast just would then go listen to 362 00:23:56.750 --> 00:24:00.589 the top rated podcast and been listen to what I believe made them top rated 363 00:24:00.630 --> 00:24:03.150 and then just mimics that. So it wasn't like some you know, crazy 364 00:24:03.230 --> 00:24:07.990 thing. And then really the theme was, you know, s and S 365 00:24:07.390 --> 00:24:11.740 S, Soviet are propaganda that. So that was kind of like the underlying 366 00:24:11.779 --> 00:24:15.700 artistic theme for this Hense, you know, the revolution. That kind of 367 00:24:15.819 --> 00:24:19.339 was, you know, the visual format. Yeah, you'll really put down. 368 00:24:19.700 --> 00:24:23.809 You'll know you found the right podcast when you see some of that that 369 00:24:25.049 --> 00:24:29.250 era artwork. It's really the whole theme is really well developed. Obviously you 370 00:24:29.329 --> 00:24:30.609 drew in a ton of I mean one of the to me, one of 371 00:24:30.609 --> 00:24:37.369 the most impressive things from our production standpoint was how much original audio you brought 372 00:24:37.450 --> 00:24:42.279 into eclips and quotes and speeches and the night rider theme song and historical clips 373 00:24:42.359 --> 00:24:48.480 and like fun edits stuff. But you also reference several books that I just 374 00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:51.119 really love and respect, and I'm just going to name a handful of them. 375 00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:55.710 The cluetrain manifesto. You will don the experience he kind of me by 376 00:24:55.789 --> 00:24:59.109 finding Gilmore. They have a new one out recently. The medium is the 377 00:24:59.309 --> 00:25:03.230 message from a clue and who you're already reference? Permission Marketing from Seth God, 378 00:25:03.349 --> 00:25:06.990 which was very fundamental to us at bombomb as we started getting going, 379 00:25:07.339 --> 00:25:10.059 and one of my personal favorite books of all times, small ast beautiful, 380 00:25:10.059 --> 00:25:14.220 by EF Schumacher. One am I too. Yeah, how are you like 381 00:25:14.339 --> 00:25:18.259 a prolific reader? Like how in any other if I mentioned those books and 382 00:25:18.660 --> 00:25:22.890 people liked a couple of them? You know, what are some other favorites 383 00:25:22.089 --> 00:25:27.849 that you've got? It's so first off, so I don't know if I 384 00:25:27.970 --> 00:25:33.450 consider myself prolific. I consider myself a follower of rabbit holes. So when 385 00:25:33.490 --> 00:25:37.359 I start going down, when there's a question in my head, I try 386 00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:41.839 to then go research and follow that rabbit hole until it's exhausted, and what 387 00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:47.400 that really ends up with is me going down very Arcad Arcane, archaic like 388 00:25:47.880 --> 00:25:52.589 different paths and finding random authors, little books or big books that not better 389 00:25:52.670 --> 00:25:56.269 on that topic. So it's really kind of how I come across all those 390 00:25:56.309 --> 00:25:57.829 and then in conversation of Hey, I read this with a friend. Oh 391 00:25:57.910 --> 00:26:00.390 well, then, have you read this through your organic probably find them. 392 00:26:00.670 --> 00:26:03.740 So I wouldn't conser myself. That's really prolific. I have read a lot, 393 00:26:03.940 --> 00:26:07.940 just based on the work I do and kind of those rabbit holes and 394 00:26:07.019 --> 00:26:12.180 making sure I and really I think it comes out of the reason I do 395 00:26:12.299 --> 00:26:15.660 that. It's not because I'm a prolific reader. It's more or less because 396 00:26:15.660 --> 00:26:18.210 I'm insecure, and I think the insecurity is I never want to be on 397 00:26:18.329 --> 00:26:22.369 stage and say something and have someone say that it's wrong because you never read 398 00:26:22.410 --> 00:26:26.769 this book and in this book he argues against that point. Right. So 399 00:26:26.809 --> 00:26:30.049 I wanted to make sure that I had a theoretical foundation, that you know, 400 00:26:30.089 --> 00:26:32.769 I knew everything, anything that is going to come at me, and 401 00:26:32.809 --> 00:26:33.759 I think that was the reason I read. So I wouldn't say I'm a 402 00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:37.440 prolifical I just say I did for those reasons. The second on the other 403 00:26:37.559 --> 00:26:41.160 books that people may enjoy, such a hard question to answer and there's so 404 00:26:41.240 --> 00:26:45.519 many books that I read from so many different things, and it's like do 405 00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:48.109 you want a historical contact? It's like, all right, we talked about 406 00:26:48.150 --> 00:26:51.069 feedback loops, but it's like, did you ever really read the original book, 407 00:26:51.150 --> 00:26:56.190 which is Robert? There's original books by we'd Kinmember I can't pronounce. 408 00:26:56.190 --> 00:26:59.630 The last day. You talked about feedback loops back in the S now. 409 00:26:59.750 --> 00:27:03.140 Is really the foundational aspect of then telling all those concepts. And you know, 410 00:27:03.220 --> 00:27:06.619 we talked about experience and you know the experience economy, Josephine, Jim 411 00:27:06.660 --> 00:27:11.339 Gilmore foundational to that theory. Doc Searles, one of the coouthers of flutrained 412 00:27:11.339 --> 00:27:12.900 meniphists. Those got a bunch of other books. That film's got a bunch 413 00:27:12.900 --> 00:27:17.730 of other books and there. You know, it just depends on how nerdy 414 00:27:17.930 --> 00:27:21.490 or how tactical or how practical you want to be with the book recommendation. 415 00:27:22.009 --> 00:27:25.210 And there's so many good books out there that's just so hard. But if 416 00:27:25.250 --> 00:27:27.329 I could just take a second to talk about what you said was your favorite 417 00:27:27.329 --> 00:27:30.880 and my favorite, which is ef Hu Moncker, smallest putiful. So pretty 418 00:27:30.880 --> 00:27:36.079 much I've seen through the majority of my favorite books. It's this constant theme 419 00:27:36.240 --> 00:27:40.200 of humanity of ef you mocker talks about, you know, and there's lots 420 00:27:40.200 --> 00:27:42.839 of quotes I use and one is that you know, industry is, you 421 00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:47.109 know, so great and it but it's so inefficient to a degree that we 422 00:27:47.190 --> 00:27:51.269 don't really realize it's an efficiency. Hence we just let it continue being inefficient. 423 00:27:51.349 --> 00:27:52.230 Right. But if we start to look at these things and say, 424 00:27:52.230 --> 00:27:56.109 all right, if we put humans at the center of everything, right, 425 00:27:56.109 --> 00:27:57.470 if we put humans at the center of our business, right, if you 426 00:27:57.509 --> 00:28:00.460 put humans at the center of what marketing should be, if we put humans 427 00:28:00.460 --> 00:28:04.500 in the center of Economics, we see a very different approach and on that 428 00:28:04.579 --> 00:28:07.619 and if you haven't read the book all that, Autistabsle the island, I 429 00:28:07.660 --> 00:28:11.819 would say make sure you read autosuth through the island. It's not a marketing 430 00:28:11.859 --> 00:28:14.690 book. It's totally a book about humanity and about you know what, if 431 00:28:14.690 --> 00:28:17.609 we thought about living in a different way. But I think that's the my 432 00:28:17.730 --> 00:28:21.369 favorite theme through all those books is just a challenge and I just can't I 433 00:28:21.410 --> 00:28:25.369 can't say enough about sumchers theories of you know what, if we thought about 434 00:28:25.410 --> 00:28:30.160 economics not as the highest financial return, which is the highest stakeholder theory return, 435 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:33.359 which is essentially he talks about way before stakeholder theory became the same, 436 00:28:33.000 --> 00:28:37.359 and that's then leads you into purpose driven business, purpose of the marketing. 437 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:41.829 I do believe purpose is a massive, powerful force and all of our marketing 438 00:28:41.869 --> 00:28:44.950 in the future must have an element of purpose in it, just because it 439 00:28:45.029 --> 00:28:48.750 focuses us on conversations past our product, I'm sort allows this to have a 440 00:28:48.829 --> 00:28:52.589 more human relationship or more honest relationship, pass just a product with our with 441 00:28:52.670 --> 00:28:55.630 our audience, when our market place. I don't know if I nitswer your 442 00:28:55.670 --> 00:28:57.980 question, man. That was that was a great, great pass the subtitle 443 00:28:59.099 --> 00:29:03.220 of smalls beautiful as economics, as if people matter mattered and and I love 444 00:29:03.299 --> 00:29:07.019 the way you see, you capture and summarize it there, and I agree 445 00:29:07.059 --> 00:29:08.140 with you on purpose. I see it more and more often. I think 446 00:29:08.140 --> 00:29:11.009 it's you know, one of the big, you know, consumer package goods 447 00:29:11.609 --> 00:29:15.730 conglomerates, was talking about how they're going to start folding some of their brands 448 00:29:15.769 --> 00:29:21.650 if they can't identify, I. A an authentic purpose that transcends like paper 449 00:29:21.769 --> 00:29:26.640 towels or toothbrushes or whatever else they're selling. You know they're going to start 450 00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:29.160 peeling off some of the brands and, you know, putting them off to 451 00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:33.359 market because purpose matters so much. I think it does. I'm probably abusing 452 00:29:33.400 --> 00:29:37.720 the word context here, but I think that purpose gives people some context for 453 00:29:37.759 --> 00:29:41.950 their participation with you and your product or your service, and I just advocate, 454 00:29:41.990 --> 00:29:45.990 and I'm sure you would too. Is that that that it is sincere 455 00:29:45.269 --> 00:29:49.109 is a big deal. I think you know anything about you know a lot 456 00:29:49.190 --> 00:29:55.140 of the shallow surface layer, you know, flimsy purpose stuff to people just 457 00:29:55.259 --> 00:29:57.380 staple up over the front of the store or whatever. You know, storefront 458 00:29:57.380 --> 00:30:02.660 or whatever as a as a concept falls away really quickly. So it needs 459 00:30:02.660 --> 00:30:06.940 to be sincere and authentic to the core of the business. I think it's 460 00:30:06.980 --> 00:30:10.329 one of the things for us here at bombomb we were very clear on what 461 00:30:10.410 --> 00:30:11.609 we were trying to do in the world and the way that we wanted to 462 00:30:11.730 --> 00:30:15.569 operate from the beginning. I don't know that it I don't know that it 463 00:30:15.089 --> 00:30:18.930 came it has bled through as much to our customers as much as maybe it 464 00:30:19.009 --> 00:30:22.680 could, should would in the future, but I think having it early and 465 00:30:22.759 --> 00:30:26.920 having it be clear and shared is a really big deal. Purposes purposes a 466 00:30:27.000 --> 00:30:30.799 thing we could probably do twenty minutes on purpose, but I'm going to try 467 00:30:30.839 --> 00:30:32.960 to let you get back to your date or just a little bit. I 468 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:36.910 got a couple other topics for you. One of them you're kind enough to 469 00:30:37.309 --> 00:30:41.029 to review and say some Nice things about, a book that I coauthored with 470 00:30:41.109 --> 00:30:44.349 Steve Passinelli, my good friend and team member here. It's called Rehumanize Your 471 00:30:44.390 --> 00:30:47.670 Business. I think it time it does what you were talking about, which 472 00:30:47.750 --> 00:30:52.019 we tried to put the human at the center of of video in particular, 473 00:30:52.180 --> 00:30:53.779 and so I just love for you to share your thoughts. And you know, 474 00:30:53.819 --> 00:30:57.579 I saw you put up a linkedin post recently about increased consumption of video 475 00:30:57.619 --> 00:31:03.099 projected into the future. Talk a little bit about one to one video, 476 00:31:03.299 --> 00:31:06.809 this this human to human video, as well as just video in general. 477 00:31:06.849 --> 00:31:10.569 Anything you got on video, I'd love to hear it. Yeah, so, 478 00:31:10.890 --> 00:31:14.490 yeah, posted this morning actually. So doing my research on my twenty 479 00:31:14.529 --> 00:31:17.809 future of marketing. Two Thousand and twenty put out a future of every year 480 00:31:17.930 --> 00:31:21.359 about marketing. Then one of the big things is, you know, just 481 00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:25.200 going out about five years. What we need to be really cognizant of is 482 00:31:25.759 --> 00:31:29.359 g and more free time. So one of the things is as five he 483 00:31:29.480 --> 00:31:32.680 comes about and as we start to offload more things to Iot, we're going 484 00:31:32.680 --> 00:31:36.269 to start to open up more free time we vote for free time every year. 485 00:31:36.309 --> 00:31:38.109 Since, you know, digitals become a thing, it's going to come 486 00:31:38.150 --> 00:31:41.750 even greater. So I talked about you know, if we go five to 487 00:31:41.829 --> 00:31:44.309 ten out we start to get into this self driving cars. Well, what 488 00:31:44.710 --> 00:31:47.859 do we then do with two hours of free time every day? Right? 489 00:31:48.059 --> 00:31:51.859 Well, we're going to consume content, and one of the most consumable pieces 490 00:31:51.900 --> 00:31:55.259 of content with five g will be video, and it's we start looking at, 491 00:31:55.380 --> 00:31:56.859 you know, how they're going to break down short form, long form, 492 00:31:57.019 --> 00:32:01.289 live video. And then you talk about one to one. So you 493 00:32:01.329 --> 00:32:04.170 know, one, two, one. To me, and I've gotten some 494 00:32:04.289 --> 00:32:07.890 flak from this, but to me one to one was an idea of one 495 00:32:07.049 --> 00:32:10.730 brand creating one message for one individual. But I think we need to really 496 00:32:10.769 --> 00:32:14.490 think about is human to human. How do we can it's one human to 497 00:32:14.529 --> 00:32:17.839 another human and do so at scale? And the definition of personal for me 498 00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:23.920 in the future is it personalized. It's not how personalized, how customized can 499 00:32:24.000 --> 00:32:28.799 I make a mass experience to an individual? It's how human cannot deliver that, 500 00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:30.869 how personal cannot deliver that experience. So you know, if it is 501 00:32:30.990 --> 00:32:35.390 one individual creating a video and setting it to another, that is one piece 502 00:32:35.509 --> 00:32:38.549 for one individual, that is, one human talking to another, instantly consumable, 503 00:32:38.670 --> 00:32:42.190 instantly engaging. Yeah, and I think it's going to be a new 504 00:32:42.269 --> 00:32:45.900 format. It is a new format already I'm in videos, very engaging. 505 00:32:45.019 --> 00:32:49.420 Me like videos. So you know, yeah, I'm all pro on video. 506 00:32:49.579 --> 00:32:51.700 I have been for a long time and I think, you know, 507 00:32:51.819 --> 00:32:54.059 as time moves on, we're going to use video more and more just because 508 00:32:54.099 --> 00:32:58.809 it's easy, you know. Yeah, I love that you drove the distinction 509 00:32:58.970 --> 00:33:04.369 between one to one and human to human or or you know, this idea 510 00:33:04.450 --> 00:33:07.690 that yeah, it because it speaks to and I love that use the language 511 00:33:07.690 --> 00:33:09.569 around purse. I the line that I drew. I wrote a blog post 512 00:33:09.650 --> 00:33:15.480 maybe two or three years ago about personal versus personalized in the context of video, 513 00:33:15.559 --> 00:33:19.160 and this idea that, to me, personalized is dear first name, 514 00:33:19.599 --> 00:33:23.160 because you addtion with a product name. Yeah, yeah, it's just, 515 00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:28.390 you know, variable stuff versus truly personal is. Hey, matt, I 516 00:33:28.509 --> 00:33:31.269 just so appreciate your time. You know, in our conversation today you made 517 00:33:31.269 --> 00:33:35.109 me think about this thing that I had read about. I'd read your work 518 00:33:35.150 --> 00:33:37.109 on it, I'd heard you speak about it, but I think about a 519 00:33:37.150 --> 00:33:40.539 completely differently now and just so value it right. This, this truly personal 520 00:33:42.019 --> 00:33:46.339 experience, is not a variable data slug. And it's interesting because, you 521 00:33:46.420 --> 00:33:51.619 know, the other background theme on it is scalable versus unscalable. I think 522 00:33:51.619 --> 00:33:53.099 a lot of people look at it they say, Oh, this doesn't scale, 523 00:33:53.140 --> 00:33:57.769 and then it just begs this. It begs your original question. I 524 00:33:58.009 --> 00:34:01.369 like, is it better if we can make it slightly, slightly, incrementally 525 00:34:01.410 --> 00:34:07.490 better by inserting better variables into these things? Versus, can you create a 526 00:34:07.569 --> 00:34:10.559 truly personal experience? And what is the value of that, especially in the 527 00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:15.119 face of all this noise? Yeah, no, and I totally agree in 528 00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:17.519 scale is the big thing and that's why. So one of the foundational element 529 00:34:17.639 --> 00:34:22.239 is is a technological foundation for context marking, for all marking in the future. 530 00:34:22.280 --> 00:34:24.269 Without technology, there is no way to scale these concepts or ideas. 531 00:34:24.389 --> 00:34:28.750 Right. With technology we know exactly who to talk to, what human connect 532 00:34:28.789 --> 00:34:31.670 with them, whether that's an employee and advocate, a sales personal marketer. 533 00:34:31.989 --> 00:34:36.389 Well, we we don't exactly who to connect, what conversation have and then 534 00:34:36.469 --> 00:34:38.380 how to guide them to the next steps and it becomes a scalable system. 535 00:34:38.780 --> 00:34:42.900 Right, we're marketing is no longer we're sitting in board rooms coming up with 536 00:34:42.980 --> 00:34:46.500 campaigns to push to the masses. Rather we create webs of systematic automations than 537 00:34:46.539 --> 00:34:50.900 we manage these automations which are connecting us right, and that's making the best 538 00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:53.329 use of our time and I think that's the biggest things. And you know, 539 00:34:53.409 --> 00:34:55.650 we haven't talked about this. One word of Agile. That's the other 540 00:34:55.690 --> 00:35:00.010 aspect of scale. Right, since the technological aspect of what does it take 541 00:35:00.010 --> 00:35:02.489 technique, technically to skip, there's the other of what changes to our processes 542 00:35:02.530 --> 00:35:06.090 have to take on. Well, we have to take on new building process. 543 00:35:06.489 --> 00:35:07.039 I mean, and I think that, you know, is one of 544 00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:10.000 the things I love to talk about, is the concept of we were all 545 00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:14.920 trained on the assembly line, right, nineteen, with the nineteen eighteen. 546 00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:17.159 Henry Ford comes out with the assembly line and that's how we think about building, 547 00:35:17.159 --> 00:35:22.389 that's how we structure our organizations and silent organizations. The building process is 548 00:35:22.469 --> 00:35:25.989 the waterfall process or extrapolation of the assembly line. But now we have instant 549 00:35:27.070 --> 00:35:30.230 feedback and so we must move to a new model, which is Agile, 550 00:35:30.269 --> 00:35:32.110 which is rapid testing. Right. You know, listen to Morgan Brown, 551 00:35:32.349 --> 00:35:35.309 Shawn and Ellis. You know, growth, hacking, you know, you 552 00:35:35.780 --> 00:35:37.780 it's rapid innovation. This is what we're talking about, and so I think 553 00:35:37.780 --> 00:35:42.300 that's the other aspect of scale. It's in those two combinations have to happen 554 00:35:42.340 --> 00:35:45.940 together and then these things become possible. By then we're not looking, we're 555 00:35:45.980 --> 00:35:46.659 no longer saying, all right, how do we just, you know, 556 00:35:46.739 --> 00:35:50.809 create the right message of the right person the right time, if you know, 557 00:35:50.889 --> 00:35:53.050 how do we connect the right human to have the correct experience, produce 558 00:35:53.090 --> 00:35:58.010 a correct experience in contact for that moment? And I think that's where we 559 00:35:58.050 --> 00:36:01.210 have to go. I love it. It's just bridging it to the truly 560 00:36:01.289 --> 00:36:07.760 personal moments. It's it's using technology and processes to put people to be in 561 00:36:07.800 --> 00:36:10.320 their best position to be of highest value doing things that machines can do, 562 00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:15.480 and you let the machines do all the things that machines do best. Sales 563 00:36:15.559 --> 00:36:17.829 Force, you've been there for quite a while. How do you like? 564 00:36:17.989 --> 00:36:22.349 You Start as an evangelist, your principle of marketing insight. It's like, 565 00:36:22.789 --> 00:36:25.989 what is your Daytoday, week till week, month to month. Relationship to, 566 00:36:27.670 --> 00:36:30.070 you know, the sales force mothership, like, how do you plug 567 00:36:30.150 --> 00:36:32.820 in? Are you just a man about the world whose work is supported by 568 00:36:32.900 --> 00:36:37.300 sales force. Like, what's the working relationship there? If for cool job, 569 00:36:37.900 --> 00:36:42.460 some job, by the way. Yeah, totally, I agree. 570 00:36:42.579 --> 00:36:45.900 Thank you. Yeah, so I actually started out in sales for a little 571 00:36:45.900 --> 00:36:50.849 start up called part ot and I was the second salesperson employeed. Thirteen we 572 00:36:50.929 --> 00:36:53.130 grew that company up. We got a choir back that target then acquired by 573 00:36:53.170 --> 00:36:58.010 sales for side. Transition into the thought leadership rolled during that process, just 574 00:36:58.090 --> 00:37:01.320 because that's the side I really was passionate about. So plugging into I really 575 00:37:01.440 --> 00:37:05.199 am mutilize in a couple of different ways, as a lot of us are 576 00:37:05.239 --> 00:37:07.559 utilize. You know, it's customer meetings, it's going in and talking with 577 00:37:07.599 --> 00:37:10.760 large brands, talking about what their future looks like, giving a presentation to 578 00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:15.789 them, you know, doing customer dinners, helping with research, as well 579 00:37:15.829 --> 00:37:19.829 as the third party speaking engagements in evangelizing the brand on stage all across the 580 00:37:19.869 --> 00:37:22.349 world. Right. So people really see us as they're not just the technology 581 00:37:22.429 --> 00:37:25.590 provider, they're also someone who is at the forefront of the field that they're, 582 00:37:25.630 --> 00:37:29.869 you know, up selling to so that we can produce you know really, 583 00:37:30.260 --> 00:37:34.539 you know far leading future leading thoughts and help guide businesses forward, not 584 00:37:34.659 --> 00:37:37.579 just by the technology that we create but also, you know, the theory 585 00:37:37.659 --> 00:37:42.739 that they need to utilize to succeed with. Yeah, I I was in 586 00:37:42.820 --> 00:37:47.530 a session at dream force with a couple researchers who were working on essentially future 587 00:37:47.610 --> 00:37:52.170 of work, which may be about you and like, how many of you 588 00:37:54.090 --> 00:38:00.280 different topic areas are there inside an organization like sales force? It's hard to 589 00:38:00.400 --> 00:38:04.239 count, you know, when you start getting into I have a team. 590 00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:06.639 I sit on the market strap, a G teams. I'm not tides and 591 00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:10.239 actual cloud product. I'm a side, separate entity. But then each products 592 00:38:10.280 --> 00:38:14.030 have their own evangelists, have their own research, you know. So we 593 00:38:14.110 --> 00:38:16.869 have it very distributed across the organization. But all my team, there's probably 594 00:38:16.869 --> 00:38:21.269 about ten of us, each has a different role. So we know IOT 595 00:38:21.909 --> 00:38:25.030 future of work. What the customer, sales and marketing? You've got a 596 00:38:25.070 --> 00:38:28.900 bunch of different ones that are rolled up into that kind and I really focus 597 00:38:29.019 --> 00:38:31.699 on the future of marketing. Awesome and it shows you're doing a lot of 598 00:38:31.739 --> 00:38:36.860 great work around. It's really fun and interesting. Last question, another linkedin 599 00:38:36.940 --> 00:38:39.300 post of yours. This is just interesting to me and highly consequential and it 600 00:38:39.420 --> 00:38:43.929 seems very relevant to people who maybe haven't noticed. But you know that that 601 00:38:43.969 --> 00:38:46.250 chrome is planning to kill off third party cookies by two thousand and twenty two. 602 00:38:47.449 --> 00:38:51.690 Yeah, what? What? What do you think is the motivation and 603 00:38:51.809 --> 00:38:55.320 what are the implications? I mean the motivation easy, if they don't do 604 00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:59.480 it, there's going to be government regulation that's going to regulate them to do 605 00:38:59.559 --> 00:39:01.719 it anyways. So I mean it's they're just trying to get ahead of the 606 00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:05.599 boat, right. So that's why they're doing it. Right, privacy, 607 00:39:05.679 --> 00:39:09.349 individual privacy, customer privacy. Third party cookies really aren't great for individual privacy. 608 00:39:09.670 --> 00:39:13.070 Then a lot of the people who created the Internet believe that they've gone 609 00:39:13.070 --> 00:39:16.230 run. They've run them Mak and we've used them to really do the consumer 610 00:39:16.309 --> 00:39:20.909 and disservice to the pretty much everyone's going away with them. So, you 611 00:39:20.989 --> 00:39:22.869 know, five years out we should really be thinking about a post third party 612 00:39:22.909 --> 00:39:25.619 cookie world. That doesn't mean post first and second, it means post third. 613 00:39:25.980 --> 00:39:30.099 So we're going to figure out new ways of attribution, new ways of 614 00:39:30.219 --> 00:39:34.940 reporting, new ways of tracking, new way of engagement. But the good 615 00:39:35.019 --> 00:39:37.139 news is that it's longest. You know, a lot of those things were 616 00:39:37.179 --> 00:39:43.889 just for you know, Third Party advertising, programmatic, advised retargeting and in 617 00:39:43.969 --> 00:39:45.769 the attribution of those things. So, you know, we're just going to 618 00:39:45.769 --> 00:39:49.130 be a new world and I think, you know that's really when, if 619 00:39:49.170 --> 00:39:52.570 you double down on contact in that notion, right, move past just I 620 00:39:52.610 --> 00:39:54.440 can push button and advertise to anybody. So now we need to really focus 621 00:39:54.519 --> 00:39:59.079 on how do we connect one human to another human and do so and first 622 00:39:59.119 --> 00:40:01.320 and second party ways. We're really going to build a much strong and more 623 00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:05.960 durable brand with better data. That's, you know, regulation proof for you 624 00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:08.070 know, zero first and second party data is regulation proof. You know, 625 00:40:08.150 --> 00:40:12.389 we have permission to use that, which once again put permission at the forefront. 626 00:40:12.750 --> 00:40:15.190 You know, when we do ask for permission, we build a different 627 00:40:15.190 --> 00:40:17.469 type of trust. We build a deeper trust for our individuals and helps us 628 00:40:17.469 --> 00:40:21.659 break through. So yeah, so you know, it's a PRONOCON right. 629 00:40:21.659 --> 00:40:22.300 So we're not going to be able to do the same things that used to 630 00:40:22.340 --> 00:40:25.099 do, but I think will be better for everybody moving forward. Yeah, 631 00:40:25.300 --> 00:40:30.659 so good. I just had a flash there of how how long ago Seth 632 00:40:30.739 --> 00:40:35.059 Guns Permission Marketing was written, but how far we have not come in some 633 00:40:35.219 --> 00:40:37.210 ways against it, you know, just the spirit of it in general, 634 00:40:37.289 --> 00:40:40.530 and so it's interesting, as I think is I think about good brands and 635 00:40:42.329 --> 00:40:45.690 good product, services and experience. It really it just a lot of it 636 00:40:45.809 --> 00:40:50.320 comes down to being a great human being that other people want to be around. 637 00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:52.440 It's like those qualities are the qualities you want to provide such that you 638 00:40:52.920 --> 00:40:55.559 people are attracted to you and they feel good around you and they feel good 639 00:40:55.599 --> 00:41:00.599 about themselves. And Yeah, it's good. Thanks for that passage. Gay 640 00:41:00.599 --> 00:41:02.360 Man, this is been awesome. I really appreciate the work that you're doing 641 00:41:02.440 --> 00:41:08.230 a enjoy you personally and before we go, I want to give you the 642 00:41:08.349 --> 00:41:13.989 chance to bring to life one of our core values here at bombomb, which 643 00:41:13.989 --> 00:41:15.989 is relationships. And so I like to give you the chance to think or 644 00:41:16.070 --> 00:41:20.659 mentioned someone who's had a positive impact on your life or career and to give 645 00:41:20.659 --> 00:41:23.300 a nod to a brand or a company that you really appreciate for the experience 646 00:41:23.300 --> 00:41:28.460 state provide for you as a customer. All right, yeah, so first 647 00:41:28.539 --> 00:41:30.699 I'd like to give a shout out to DOC searles. You mentioned them earlier, 648 00:41:30.739 --> 00:41:36.250 author Clue Train Manifesto. Doc is definitely been very helpful. Either reach 649 00:41:36.329 --> 00:41:38.130 out to is definitely helped guide me, helps a lot with the book and 650 00:41:38.170 --> 00:41:42.250 the in terms of, you know, just questions and just someone that's been 651 00:41:42.329 --> 00:41:45.929 great. I love the work that he produces. He's an awesome human and 652 00:41:45.050 --> 00:41:47.719 he's definitely helped me out a lot. So shout out to doc. And 653 00:41:47.840 --> 00:41:52.920 then a company I highly respect and I think create a great customer experience for 654 00:41:52.960 --> 00:41:54.599 me as well as others, is with you. They're probably one of my 655 00:41:54.679 --> 00:42:00.360 favorites. I've known them personally for going on ten years. I'll always love 656 00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:04.190 the individuals that they hire, the culture that they put together, the marketing 657 00:42:04.230 --> 00:42:07.550 that they put out, the software that they create and the experience just in 658 00:42:07.710 --> 00:42:12.550 general of everything that they do. It's very unique, very specific and it's 659 00:42:12.590 --> 00:42:17.460 a great example of how culture and how leadership really does create a culture and 660 00:42:17.539 --> 00:42:22.260 if it's not at the executive level, it's very difficult to create such a 661 00:42:22.340 --> 00:42:25.579 positive and unique culture inside of organization if the executives don't have it. So 662 00:42:25.699 --> 00:42:30.090 that was said, I'll go with those two awesome and that's a reflection of 663 00:42:30.090 --> 00:42:32.730 another kind of background theme on the show, which is that a great employee 664 00:42:32.730 --> 00:42:38.289 experience begets or is it necessary precursor to a great customer experience, and culture 665 00:42:38.369 --> 00:42:42.010 is one of the words that kind of capture some of that essence. We 666 00:42:42.090 --> 00:42:47.159 already talked about pre ordering the context marketing revolution on Amazon. I mentioned your 667 00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:52.199 someone great to follow on Linkedin. How else could someone follow up with you 668 00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:54.599 and your work if you're if people enjoyed this conversation, they liked the ideas, 669 00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:58.750 they want to go deeper, where would you send people? Yes, 670 00:42:58.989 --> 00:43:00.389 I mean two things. One, and make sure either follow me on linked 671 00:43:00.429 --> 00:43:05.030 in or twitter. I published their on a pretty weekly basis. If you 672 00:43:05.110 --> 00:43:07.750 haven't listened to the podcast and want to kind of get a jump on with 673 00:43:07.829 --> 00:43:09.230 the book, talks about it. They make sure you listen to the electronic 674 00:43:09.309 --> 00:43:14.260 propaganda society and it definitely please pre order the book. I think you'll enjoy 675 00:43:14.260 --> 00:43:19.579 it and really the goal is to really help marketers. Not necessarily help marketers 676 00:43:19.619 --> 00:43:22.500 as much, but help markers make the case to their executives of why we 677 00:43:22.539 --> 00:43:24.699 must change you go down this different path, and that's really the focus of 678 00:43:24.739 --> 00:43:29.650 the book is to help you have the firepower to make these changes internally in 679 00:43:29.730 --> 00:43:34.570 your organization. Really good, because it's big, it's scary, it's revolutionary, 680 00:43:35.250 --> 00:43:38.170 and so I think being better informed, better equipped to make these arguments 681 00:43:38.210 --> 00:43:44.800 and to make these observations internally and even collaborating across teams and building consensus around 682 00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:47.760 some of these ideas. So I hope the book delivers on your mission, 683 00:43:49.280 --> 00:43:52.599 because I think we'll be enjoying our lives and businesses a little bit more when 684 00:43:52.639 --> 00:43:55.789 we start moving more in that direction. Thanks so much for your time today 685 00:43:55.789 --> 00:44:00.909 at really really enjoyed it and hope you have a great week of since like 686 00:44:00.030 --> 00:44:06.110 so much for the chance. I hope you're thinking a little bit differently about 687 00:44:06.190 --> 00:44:09.300 your go to market strategy after listening to that conversation with Matt. If you 688 00:44:09.380 --> 00:44:14.059 want to check out some video clips from the episode and get links to some 689 00:44:14.219 --> 00:44:16.579 of those great books that we talked about, you can get that in a 690 00:44:16.619 --> 00:44:24.489 whole lot more by visiting bombombcom forward slash podcast. That's bombombcom slash podcast. 691 00:44:25.010 --> 00:44:30.050 My name is Ethan Butte and thanks again for listening to the BE TOB growth 692 00:44:30.130 --> 00:44:37.449 show. Hey, everybody, Logan with sweetfish here. If you're a regular 693 00:44:37.530 --> 00:44:39.880 listener of BB growth, you know that I'm one of the cohosts of the 694 00:44:39.960 --> 00:44:44.320 show, but you may not know that I also head up the sales team 695 00:44:44.400 --> 00:44:47.000 here is sweetfish. So for those of you in sales or sales offs, 696 00:44:47.159 --> 00:44:52.119 I wanted to take a second to share something that's made us insanely more efficient 697 00:44:52.199 --> 00:44:55.190 lately. Our team has been using lead Iq for the past few months and 698 00:44:55.349 --> 00:45:00.909 what used to take us four hours gathering contact data now takes us only one, 699 00:45:00.989 --> 00:45:05.590 or seventy five percent more efficient. We're able to move faster without bound 700 00:45:05.630 --> 00:45:10.219 prospecting and organizing our campaigns is so much easier than before. I'd highly suggest 701 00:45:10.300 --> 00:45:14.579 you guys check out lead Iq as well. You can check them out at 702 00:45:14.619 --> 00:45:19.860 lead iqcom. That's ee ad iqcom.
