#CX 46: Product-Led Growth vs Sales-Led Growth w/ Wes Bush

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.400 --> 00:00:07.990 I think a lot of people are starting to realize, wait a minute, 2 00:00:07.990 --> 00:00:10.550 like there, there is a better way and faster way to grow, and 3 00:00:11.230 --> 00:00:15.470 it takes a while for any company to really recognize that because there is that 4 00:00:16.070 --> 00:00:21.030 Nice, comforting, proven sales led playbook that works. We know it works, 5 00:00:21.070 --> 00:00:24.379 we have people on the skill set and we can just make it work. 6 00:00:24.460 --> 00:00:30.420 For now. Taking a product led approach can remove friction and improve customer 7 00:00:30.539 --> 00:00:35.380 experience. So what's the difference between product led versus sales led growth? What 8 00:00:35.500 --> 00:00:39.490 are some of the factors driving the shift to product led growth models and, 9 00:00:39.570 --> 00:00:43.250 if you decide to go down that road yourself, what challenges and hurdles are 10 00:00:43.289 --> 00:00:47.409 in your way to tackle all that and more. I talked with West Bush. 11 00:00:47.770 --> 00:00:51.799 He's the author of products led growth, the host of the product led 12 00:00:51.880 --> 00:00:56.759 summit and the founder of the product led institute. Mighty mime is Ethan Butte. 13 00:00:56.920 --> 00:01:00.119 I'm the host of the customer experience podcast and the host of the CX 14 00:01:00.200 --> 00:01:07.870 series here on Bob Growth. Here's my conversation with West Bush. Okay, 15 00:01:07.950 --> 00:01:11.230 today on the customer experience podcast we're going to address what's been a missing piece 16 00:01:11.430 --> 00:01:15.230 in the customer experience conversation here on the show to date. I think we're 17 00:01:15.310 --> 00:01:19.579 episode forty six here, so we're finally getting around to something really important. 18 00:01:19.939 --> 00:01:26.340 We regularly talk with marketing, sales and CS executives and practitioners. I've hosted 19 00:01:26.420 --> 00:01:30.379 speakers, authors and consultants who specialize in things like branding, trust building and 20 00:01:30.500 --> 00:01:37.370 even customer experience directly. But today we're finally talking product, especially product at 21 00:01:37.370 --> 00:01:42.370 the intersection of sales and marketing. Our guest has years of experience and digital 22 00:01:42.409 --> 00:01:46.609 marketing in demand Jen, but he spent the past five or six years going 23 00:01:46.849 --> 00:01:51.200 deep on product in particular. He's the founder of the product led institute, 24 00:01:51.519 --> 00:01:55.799 he's the author of product led growth and he's the host of the product led 25 00:01:55.920 --> 00:02:00.920 summit. He's democratizing the way people are learning about this product led movement. 26 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:05.590 Westbush, welcome to the customer experience podcast. Thanks so much for having me. 27 00:02:05.670 --> 00:02:07.389 I'm looking for to the conversation. Yeah, me too, and I 28 00:02:07.550 --> 00:02:12.430 again I really appreciate we're just warming up a minute ago and I really appreciate 29 00:02:12.590 --> 00:02:15.699 what you're doing around these concepts of product led. When I read the book, 30 00:02:16.099 --> 00:02:19.939 I felt like you were able to rope in what otherwise would have been 31 00:02:20.419 --> 00:02:23.379 disparate but super important ideas from people in a variety of seats. So I 32 00:02:23.460 --> 00:02:27.819 really appreciate what you're doing and thanks for spending time with us here. I'm 33 00:02:27.860 --> 00:02:30.009 going to start where I normally start, with the definition of customer experience. 34 00:02:30.090 --> 00:02:35.770 But before we do, you spent four years as the Aquatic Team Leader for 35 00:02:36.250 --> 00:02:39.889 why MCA Canada, and I'm going to I'm just guessing that something you learned 36 00:02:39.930 --> 00:02:44.289 and teaching kids to swim and running a team of people who taught kids to 37 00:02:44.360 --> 00:02:47.120 swim. What can that teach us about product experience or customer experience? Like, 38 00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:52.039 what did you learn then that you feel like it's maybe still relevant today? 39 00:02:52.759 --> 00:02:57.360 Wow, that's not a question I've had before. In terms of that 40 00:02:57.520 --> 00:03:02.550 whole experience, I really do think that teaching is something that is so powerful 41 00:03:02.550 --> 00:03:07.310 whenever it comes to really just simplifying things. I really think if you want 42 00:03:07.349 --> 00:03:10.870 to understand something, you really need to learn how to teach it, and 43 00:03:12.110 --> 00:03:16.340 so I think whenever you're trying to think about customer experience, like if you're 44 00:03:16.340 --> 00:03:21.219 going to help someone, you really have to become a great teacher, and 45 00:03:21.460 --> 00:03:24.060 so I think that's a skill that, although I've kind of teaching kids anymore. 46 00:03:24.139 --> 00:03:29.729 spunning was a long time ago. Yeah, it's definitely something that I 47 00:03:29.889 --> 00:03:32.009 still try and hone in on that skill and even with the product, that 48 00:03:32.129 --> 00:03:37.050 summit or my book, always trying to get better at teaching people, in 49 00:03:37.129 --> 00:03:42.599 simplifying but everything down so that other people can pick up things easier and become 50 00:03:42.680 --> 00:03:46.360 successful with whatever, whether it's knowledge or skills, you're trying to transfer. 51 00:03:46.039 --> 00:03:50.479 Love it. Great answer and again that you know. You know you've mastered 52 00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:53.400 something and we're able to teach it well and turn other students into masters themselves. 53 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:55.830 A great answer and thanks for going all the way back there with me. 54 00:03:57.430 --> 00:04:00.509 I thought might be a little bit fun as an opener. So let's 55 00:04:00.509 --> 00:04:03.430 go. Let's let's ask the question that I ask everyone who is kind enough 56 00:04:03.430 --> 00:04:08.349 to spend time with me here, when I say customer experience, what comes 57 00:04:08.389 --> 00:04:11.939 to mind for you? So when I think of like a really good customer 58 00:04:12.020 --> 00:04:16.139 experience, I think of two things. So the first thing is whenever I'm 59 00:04:16.300 --> 00:04:20.139 looking at a company or let's say I'm starting on the website, I am 60 00:04:20.220 --> 00:04:25.050 looking at their perceived value. This is everything the marketers talk about, this 61 00:04:25.209 --> 00:04:28.290 is what they're promising me. And then there's on the other side of that, 62 00:04:28.410 --> 00:04:30.050 which is once you're in the product, where you actually get that product, 63 00:04:30.129 --> 00:04:35.410 it's a physical product, there's the experienced value. So a good customer 64 00:04:35.490 --> 00:04:41.160 experience to me is where that perceived value, like what you're hoping you're going 65 00:04:41.199 --> 00:04:45.639 to get in that experience value really lines up and it's just exactly what you 66 00:04:45.720 --> 00:04:48.879 expected, if not even better. So to me, customer experience is those 67 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:53.069 two things. You got to see value, experience value and that lines up 68 00:04:53.110 --> 00:04:56.670 with exactly what you expected. I love it and you did a really nice 69 00:04:56.790 --> 00:05:00.269 pass in in the book on that topic and especially about the gap that often 70 00:05:00.310 --> 00:05:03.269 exists in what we need to do to close that. For folks who aren't 71 00:05:03.269 --> 00:05:10.139 familiar with the term product led obviously it's something you've devoted your life to lately. 72 00:05:10.579 --> 00:05:15.180 Get folks like, especially in contrast to sales led growth, talk about 73 00:05:15.259 --> 00:05:18.740 product led growth. What is its definition? What are its primary characteristics? 74 00:05:18.779 --> 00:05:24.009 Yeah, so I think the really understands product right grow. That almost helps 75 00:05:24.050 --> 00:05:29.529 to take a step back and look at the traditional way of selling products. 76 00:05:29.610 --> 00:05:33.810 And for a lot of especially software companies, the very traditional way was you 77 00:05:33.970 --> 00:05:39.959 have this demo process and place and you hire ray expensive sales people to sell 78 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:43.800 your product, and the whole goal of these companies is really to take you 79 00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:46.079 from point a to point B in the sale cycle and then eventually become a 80 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:51.430 customer, whereas whenever it's a product led company, it's really looking at seeing 81 00:05:51.589 --> 00:05:56.670 how can we show people the value of our product as soon as possible in 82 00:05:56.790 --> 00:06:00.829 the the full buying cycle. And so it does come back to that first 83 00:06:00.870 --> 00:06:04.660 part of my own belief about what customer experience is is really just instead of 84 00:06:04.779 --> 00:06:08.779 telling people like here's what a puctice, here's what the perceived value is, 85 00:06:09.379 --> 00:06:13.339 what we're trying to do in a product that company is actually show people by 86 00:06:13.500 --> 00:06:16.180 giving them the products, whether it's their free child freemum model, by making 87 00:06:16.259 --> 00:06:20.529 them successful and having them experience that value, so that the value prop is 88 00:06:20.769 --> 00:06:25.970 experience. It's not something we're just telling people. And so the reason why 89 00:06:26.209 --> 00:06:30.529 product that companies are really taking off and growing faster than their sales at counterparts 90 00:06:30.730 --> 00:06:32.319 really does come to down that that, I mean, the best way to 91 00:06:32.439 --> 00:06:38.959 show, I mean build trust is to really just show people like here's our 92 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:42.399 product, here's how we help you, go see for yourself, and so 93 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:46.040 I think product led growth in this whole movement isn't anything new. We've seen 94 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:50.110 this in so many different categories. I mean if you go to costco or 95 00:06:50.709 --> 00:06:56.470 even try on Cologne at the airport, like, there is so many instances 96 00:06:56.790 --> 00:07:00.430 of free trials or getting his samples of different things where, once we do 97 00:07:00.699 --> 00:07:03.180 try them, we want to see more of it. And so I really 98 00:07:03.259 --> 00:07:06.740 think product that grows. Now that it's finally hit the software world, software 99 00:07:06.740 --> 00:07:11.060 cominges are has an you know this, this works, this is a part 100 00:07:11.139 --> 00:07:14.379 of the buying cycle. We want to experience the product and see what it's 101 00:07:14.420 --> 00:07:16.970 all about. So that's what gets me really excited about product that growth also 102 00:07:17.089 --> 00:07:21.569 about customer experience. Love it. The driving factors. They're right. So 103 00:07:21.889 --> 00:07:26.009 it's kind of a go to market strategy. What do you say? That's 104 00:07:26.009 --> 00:07:29.410 true. Yeah, absolutely. So what do you think are some of the 105 00:07:29.449 --> 00:07:33.319 driving factors in that shift from to traditional more sales led bottle to this? 106 00:07:33.399 --> 00:07:35.879 I mean, already got it some of it, which is people want this, 107 00:07:36.199 --> 00:07:40.360 people want that confidence. It's how we build trust. It's how we, 108 00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:43.079 in our own minds, you know, we get rid of maybe some 109 00:07:43.160 --> 00:07:47.269 of that skepticism or remote remorse for confusion about is what I've been promised and 110 00:07:47.350 --> 00:07:51.029 what I'm expecting what I'm actually going to experience. But from a cost standpoint. 111 00:07:51.029 --> 00:07:55.910 Talk a little bit about some of the drivers in this shift from sales 112 00:07:55.949 --> 00:07:59.579 led to product led. Yeah, so that's a really good point too, 113 00:07:59.740 --> 00:08:03.259 and one of the big tidal waves that's that's happening for any business. This 114 00:08:03.339 --> 00:08:07.300 isn't a specific to software businesses, but it's the fact that it's become so 115 00:08:07.379 --> 00:08:11.660 much easier to start a business and so, taken at face value, that 116 00:08:11.779 --> 00:08:13.490 seems like this amazing thing, which it is. I mean, I've benefit 117 00:08:13.569 --> 00:08:16.649 from a lot of the same tools and everything else. It's never been easier 118 00:08:16.689 --> 00:08:20.649 to start a business, but at the same time it's also become a lot 119 00:08:20.769 --> 00:08:24.370 harder to grow one. And so now that there's so many competitors for every 120 00:08:24.529 --> 00:08:30.480 single type of category in business, is becoming a lot more expensive to grow. 121 00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:35.480 And so customer acquisition cause are actually becoming a lot higher. It's actually 122 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:39.200 a according to a report by profit I was fifty five percent. They've increased 123 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:41.470 in the last five years and so that shows really nor signs of stopping. 124 00:08:41.870 --> 00:08:48.110 So it's becoming a lot more expensive to get customers on board, but also 125 00:08:48.429 --> 00:08:52.350 customers are not as willing to pay as much for a lot of the same 126 00:08:52.429 --> 00:08:54.710 solutions as they were because, I mean, software is in this novel is 127 00:08:54.820 --> 00:08:58.419 that used to be. And so you have, on one hand, rising 128 00:08:58.460 --> 00:09:01.700 customer position costs, on the other hand people are just not willing to pay 129 00:09:01.700 --> 00:09:05.379 as much for it, and so that leaves you in a really awkward position 130 00:09:05.419 --> 00:09:07.539 where you're saying, well, the catter, we get these people on board 131 00:09:09.059 --> 00:09:11.529 because they're not willing to pay as much and we can't actually spend as much. 132 00:09:11.610 --> 00:09:16.649 So either you have just smaller margins or you figure out a smarter way 133 00:09:16.649 --> 00:09:20.809 to sell. And so with the traditional sales led way, I mean you're 134 00:09:20.809 --> 00:09:26.480 hiring inside sales team, often you're hiring account executives and it's really expensive to 135 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:30.639 make that model work. It's effective, it can work, but it's becoming 136 00:09:30.679 --> 00:09:33.799 less and less effective in those margins are getting smaller and smaller. On those 137 00:09:33.840 --> 00:09:37.879 businesses where with a product, that business, whenever you're looking at the numbers, 138 00:09:37.240 --> 00:09:41.629 well, if that free trial or the freemium model can actually on board 139 00:09:41.669 --> 00:09:46.870 people and upgrade them on their own and maybe you know whence they do become 140 00:09:46.950 --> 00:09:50.429 successful and they do experience the value prop then yeah, absolutely, sales and 141 00:09:50.509 --> 00:09:52.820 everyone else, because my eccess can reach out and really help those people on 142 00:09:54.299 --> 00:09:58.220 but the majority of the work has actually been done by the product, and 143 00:09:58.340 --> 00:10:01.700 so that's really cool. Whenever you look at the revenue per user of some 144 00:10:01.779 --> 00:10:03.940 of these companies, I mean like there's a trusts there. Forty million. 145 00:10:05.059 --> 00:10:09.970 Are Are Forty people. That's crazy, and studies and that's incredible. Yeah, 146 00:10:11.049 --> 00:10:15.210 and the fact that they've been able to do that is actually possible because 147 00:10:15.250 --> 00:10:18.690 their product helps them do a lot of the heavy lifting on that on boarding 148 00:10:18.730 --> 00:10:22.440 front. So I think from a numbers perspective it's fascinating to look at that. 149 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.720 Yeah, I think you're exactly right in your echoing a couple previous guests 150 00:10:26.759 --> 00:10:30.200 on the PODCAST, David cancel from drift. We spent a lot of time 151 00:10:30.200 --> 00:10:33.639 talking about a couple of those key market dynamics that you just walk through and 152 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:37.190 and more recently Dan tire from hub spot. He's a sales guy. So 153 00:10:37.629 --> 00:10:39.029 for those of you who are listening, if you like that theme, I 154 00:10:39.149 --> 00:10:46.629 have a couple more conversations on those. Just visit bombbcom itunes or spotify or 155 00:10:46.990 --> 00:10:48.909 Google to go find it in your favorite player. Where do you think we 156 00:10:50.059 --> 00:10:52.860 are in terms of this shift? Do you think? Do you think this 157 00:10:52.940 --> 00:10:56.299 is an inevitability and your you and the folks you're working with and talking to 158 00:10:56.460 --> 00:11:01.779 and educating in the movement you're creating, is this an inevitability? And if 159 00:11:01.899 --> 00:11:05.409 so, where are we in this shift from sales led to product letter? 160 00:11:05.490 --> 00:11:09.090 We in the very, very early days and folks that you mentioned like a 161 00:11:09.250 --> 00:11:13.850 refts is, are they pioneers? Like where are we in this big picture 162 00:11:13.009 --> 00:11:18.570 in your in your view? So honestly, we're really early stage at this 163 00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:22.840 point. This movement is just starting and I think a lot of people are 164 00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:26.200 starting to realize wait amount of like there is a better way, of faster 165 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:30.720 way to grow, and it takes a while for any company to really recognize 166 00:11:30.759 --> 00:11:35.549 that because there is that Nice, comforting proven sales led playbook that works. 167 00:11:35.710 --> 00:11:39.909 We know it works. We have people on the skill set and we can 168 00:11:39.990 --> 00:11:41.950 just make it work for now. But if you really want to build a 169 00:11:41.990 --> 00:11:46.549 long term business, you're going to start having to ask yourself some hard questions 170 00:11:46.590 --> 00:11:50.700 about is this the best go to market chadue for us for the next ten 171 00:11:50.779 --> 00:11:54.059 years? What should we do about that? How can we help our customers? 172 00:11:54.059 --> 00:11:58.259 Because I'm successful earlier on in the journey and so I think for a 173 00:11:58.340 --> 00:12:01.220 lot of companies it's at this point where they're starting to ask a lot of 174 00:12:01.299 --> 00:12:03.330 those questions, which is great, but it's going to take a lot more 175 00:12:03.889 --> 00:12:07.730 for people to really kind of make that shift and change their company and how 176 00:12:07.730 --> 00:12:13.330 they really do market, sell, support customers. And there's a whole spectrum. 177 00:12:13.370 --> 00:12:16.399 It's not just let's put on a free trial on our website. You 178 00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:20.360 got to change your marketing, how you do that, your whole sales approach 179 00:12:20.840 --> 00:12:24.639 and a lot of different team dynamics have to change to yeah, it's funny. 180 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.000 I feel like it puts a much heavier ask, obviously on the product 181 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:30.909 itself. I think for years as people were you know, eat. Let's 182 00:12:30.909 --> 00:12:33.990 say just go back eight or ten years ago. You know you build some 183 00:12:33.110 --> 00:12:37.669 software, you know you have the sales led model and I think you know 184 00:12:37.789 --> 00:12:43.580 once you get someone closed committed with the purchase, then you start to unbundle, 185 00:12:43.779 --> 00:12:48.539 like some of the shortcomings and you know, like we maybe new on 186 00:12:48.620 --> 00:12:52.259 the sales side, that the perceived experience wasn't going to be fully delivered in 187 00:12:52.779 --> 00:12:56.340 and you know for some of the dynamics you mentioned in even in your previous 188 00:12:56.419 --> 00:13:01.610 response. That's not really tolerated anymore. Our expectations have moved so far beyond 189 00:13:01.690 --> 00:13:05.370 that. I think you're exactly right and I do think there is an inevitability 190 00:13:05.490 --> 00:13:07.330 to it as well. You mentioned a playbook and I got to say the 191 00:13:07.450 --> 00:13:13.200 product led growth book that you wrote was very well sourced and super approachable, 192 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:18.919 insanely practical. I call it a practical guide to it with terms and frameworks, 193 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:24.159 examples and how to's, and it spans initial strategems. Speaking now to 194 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:26.230 the listener, not just to you, I'm sure you know what's in the 195 00:13:26.309 --> 00:13:30.309 book and hopefully you find this to be a fair and accurate kind of a 196 00:13:30.389 --> 00:13:33.990 capture of it. But you know it's bands from initial strategy and go to 197 00:13:33.029 --> 00:13:37.590 because this is go to market strategy all the way through specific execution, including 198 00:13:37.750 --> 00:13:43.139 pricing, including email and messaging ideas. It's just really, really useful. 199 00:13:43.659 --> 00:13:46.419 When you committed to write the book, and I understand why you would do 200 00:13:46.419 --> 00:13:50.659 it. I did similar and trying to advance this personal video movement. I 201 00:13:50.740 --> 00:13:54.059 thought a book would just help reach more people and it's tangible. It maybe 202 00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:56.250 buys you a little bit more credibility when you're trying to get a stage that 203 00:13:56.330 --> 00:14:01.090 you might not have been able to get otherwise, etcetera. But specific to 204 00:14:01.169 --> 00:14:05.450 the reader, what did you hope like if someone picks up or when someone 205 00:14:05.529 --> 00:14:07.730 picks up product led growth, you know, what do you hope that they 206 00:14:07.809 --> 00:14:11.879 take away from it at a high level in terms of a customer experience of 207 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:15.399 a book buyer and book reader? Yeah, that's really interesting question. And 208 00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:18.679 so I think for the book buyer, what I didn't want to do, 209 00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:24.279 like the first six chapters, if the book are really just identifying, like 210 00:14:24.350 --> 00:14:26.509 if the is is even a good fit, because I think with a lot 211 00:14:26.629 --> 00:14:31.429 of new innovasions there's a lot of talk and people just like to say, 212 00:14:31.549 --> 00:14:35.590 Oh, let's jump on this band right then, and so I really want 213 00:14:35.590 --> 00:14:39.500 to make sure that people are taking an educated step in the right direction, 214 00:14:39.779 --> 00:14:43.179 actually vetting it, going through a lot of the questions but their executive team 215 00:14:43.220 --> 00:14:45.940 to see, you know, is this a good fit for the business? 216 00:14:46.299 --> 00:14:48.740 And so that's what I really tried to do is if it is a good 217 00:14:48.779 --> 00:14:52.169 fit, Greatad, the best of the book. If it is not, 218 00:14:52.570 --> 00:14:56.529 then I hopefully have saved you hundreds of thousand smallars. Are Millions dollars by 219 00:14:56.570 --> 00:15:01.809 not going down that path. So I think in that first six chapters that's 220 00:15:01.889 --> 00:15:05.450 really what I'm my whole goal was. And for those people that are pro 221 00:15:05.690 --> 00:15:09.919 product, that it's a good fit for their business, what I'm really hoping 222 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:15.080 they're going to walk away with is really understanding the fundamentals, because that's the 223 00:15:15.159 --> 00:15:18.039 the second part of the book. He's really just understanding, like what are 224 00:15:18.080 --> 00:15:20.789 those main three things that you need to build a product, that business? 225 00:15:20.830 --> 00:15:24.429 And I think if you get those right and really hone in on them, 226 00:15:24.909 --> 00:15:28.830 is going to make all the difference for your entire business. And so that's 227 00:15:28.950 --> 00:15:33.230 really my whole goal, is understanding it's a good fit for you and if 228 00:15:33.269 --> 00:15:35.100 it is, how do you take it to the next level? So, 229 00:15:35.259 --> 00:15:39.019 for folks who it is a good fit for, what are some of that 230 00:15:39.139 --> 00:15:41.179 you you know you do some active consulting. You're in these companies. Of 231 00:15:41.220 --> 00:15:45.220 course you brought your own experience, I think, which is what motivated you 232 00:15:45.259 --> 00:15:46.820 to go down this rogues you kept seeing the same problems over and over. 233 00:15:48.340 --> 00:15:50.090 So I think you're going to have some really good, in useful ideas here. 234 00:15:50.330 --> 00:15:54.889 Where some of the biggest hurtles when an organization accepts and understands that this 235 00:15:56.009 --> 00:15:58.529 is a good fit for them. What are some of the implications or hurdles 236 00:15:58.690 --> 00:16:03.570 like from a sales standpoint, from a marketing standpoint, from a CS standpoint, 237 00:16:03.850 --> 00:16:07.240 or even from a product in Dev standpoint? Where do you see challenges 238 00:16:07.320 --> 00:16:11.799 and hurtles for companies that identify that this is a good fit for them? 239 00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:15.440 Yeah, so I think the way you sell really has to change and, 240 00:16:15.960 --> 00:16:23.110 depending on how big the business is, that can be absolutely petrifine because you're 241 00:16:23.190 --> 00:16:29.230 used to a certain sales motion in your business and now you're saying, let's 242 00:16:29.230 --> 00:16:32.269 just give our product away for free, for a little bit or if it's 243 00:16:32.269 --> 00:16:36.860 a free trial, or freeing him potentially all or part of it for free. 244 00:16:37.340 --> 00:16:40.779 And from a sales perspective that's scary because I mean, they have the 245 00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:44.379 demo goals and all their metrics are set up for this one side of the 246 00:16:44.460 --> 00:16:47.809 business, but then as soon as you introduce that free trial, you're going 247 00:16:47.850 --> 00:16:51.730 to see a conversion right go sky Rothing, skyrocket and people love it. 248 00:16:52.169 --> 00:16:55.730 And but then the sales teams, looking at that, come like our demos 249 00:16:55.769 --> 00:17:00.559 aren't as much and so there's this constant friction between the teams of pro product 250 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:04.920 let and then sales let. Which one should you really take into consideration? 251 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:10.480 So I think for bigger teams that's one of the biggest problems. That's any 252 00:17:10.599 --> 00:17:14.720 founder or leader in that team is going to have to really go up against. 253 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:18.430 And so if you don't have your leadership or even your board on board 254 00:17:18.470 --> 00:17:22.029 with this new direction, it's going to be really hard to pull it off 255 00:17:22.069 --> 00:17:26.109 if you are an established business. That's why I often if you were earlier 256 00:17:26.269 --> 00:17:30.900 on in your journey, it can be so much easier for you to really 257 00:17:30.980 --> 00:17:33.539 kind of flip the switch become product let from that day one, but in 258 00:17:33.619 --> 00:17:36.740 your first few years. Once you do, you get that product market. 259 00:17:36.819 --> 00:17:40.900 But I think it's really, really important this idea that you know, in 260 00:17:40.980 --> 00:17:45.930 a lot of cases the people making decisions have only known it the sales led 261 00:17:45.009 --> 00:17:48.170 way, and so this is I mean there's just a selling on the concept 262 00:17:48.250 --> 00:17:52.369 itself, which then is, you know, we're not cooled and staffed for 263 00:17:52.450 --> 00:17:55.609 it. Our tool kid is designed for this function. And then, as 264 00:17:55.650 --> 00:17:57.839 you said, you know, I forget where they said petrified or another synonym 265 00:17:57.880 --> 00:18:00.799 of it just a minute ago. I can see that too, where it's 266 00:18:00.839 --> 00:18:04.359 like, but you know, we have twenty five million dollars that are all 267 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:10.839 stacked on this particular approach like it, and we want to stack another try 268 00:18:11.000 --> 00:18:15.430 twenty five million next year. Are we going to only stack twelve in then 269 00:18:15.509 --> 00:18:18.670 this thing's going to happen over here like how I can see how it would 270 00:18:18.670 --> 00:18:22.990 be very problematic and challenging culturally, especially the bigger the organization is, the 271 00:18:23.150 --> 00:18:27.180 more decisionmakers there are in the process and the more you have writing on it 272 00:18:27.259 --> 00:18:32.220 in a variety of different circumstances. You wrote in the book. It wasn't 273 00:18:32.220 --> 00:18:33.940 a huge passage, but it was one that was really interesting to me because 274 00:18:33.940 --> 00:18:38.420 I've heard a number of folks on the guests on the on this podcast talk 275 00:18:38.539 --> 00:18:42.329 about it, this idea and it's something that's potentially controversial. I don't see 276 00:18:42.369 --> 00:18:47.089 it as such myself, but not all customers are created equal. That I 277 00:18:47.130 --> 00:18:49.329 think your language around it was. You know, if the Queen of England 278 00:18:49.410 --> 00:18:52.289 shows up at your place, you're not going to treat her the same way 279 00:18:52.329 --> 00:18:56.119 as you treat a buddy who shows up to like watch the game on the 280 00:18:56.200 --> 00:19:00.000 television or something. Talk a little bit about the the implications in the context 281 00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:06.559 of these ideas in this movement, this idea that not all customers are created 282 00:19:06.559 --> 00:19:08.759 equal. How do we need to be aware of that and order it's implications? 283 00:19:08.799 --> 00:19:14.230 Yes, so if, yeah, that perfect example, like if someone 284 00:19:14.390 --> 00:19:18.430 does come who's a perfect fit customer, why are we espish when it comes 285 00:19:18.470 --> 00:19:22.509 to your product and how you even on board them from the very beginning? 286 00:19:22.750 --> 00:19:26.980 Why are you giving them the same experience as everyone else? And so that's 287 00:19:26.099 --> 00:19:30.140 often something I see a lot of companies here where it's just like this one 288 00:19:30.180 --> 00:19:34.259 size fit's all kind of onboarding, and it's a shame because there's some people 289 00:19:34.259 --> 00:19:37.609 who are perfect fit and now we're getting the Click, the I'm not a 290 00:19:37.690 --> 00:19:41.089 robot, butts in and filled all these forms and everything else, and is 291 00:19:41.130 --> 00:19:45.609 like, with modern tools, we can actually tell, sometimes before they even 292 00:19:45.609 --> 00:19:48.529 fell out that form, if they're a good fit. And so there's a 293 00:19:48.569 --> 00:19:52.839 lot of things we can do from a customer experience perspective that we can just 294 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:57.920 expedite things for those people and really make sure that they have the best experiencing, 295 00:19:57.960 --> 00:20:02.759 even it we just use even simple terms like lead scoring and figuring out, 296 00:20:02.759 --> 00:20:06.319 okay, like this is a perfect customer. Let's reach out proactively and 297 00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:08.910 earlier and help them on board them in a new way or send them a 298 00:20:10.029 --> 00:20:14.549 video earlier on in the journey just show them like a welcome to our product 299 00:20:14.549 --> 00:20:18.509 experience. We're excited to have you actually personalize it, and so I think 300 00:20:18.509 --> 00:20:22.660 there's so many great things we can do earlier on and that journey to really 301 00:20:22.019 --> 00:20:26.140 goes back to that definition the customer experience, like make that experience value just 302 00:20:26.259 --> 00:20:30.500 so much better than the perceived value that you really wow customers and that is 303 00:20:30.660 --> 00:20:34.099 really what feeds the word about marketing, about getting yeah, it's really good 304 00:20:34.099 --> 00:20:37.849 in your exactly right. I mean just thinking about I'm not I'm not deep 305 00:20:37.009 --> 00:20:41.970 in marketing APPs at here at Bombomb, but to your point of before the 306 00:20:41.049 --> 00:20:45.130 form gets filled out, I know that we know who's a good fit customer 307 00:20:45.250 --> 00:20:51.839 because we have software that allows us to know maybe recognized and key domains when 308 00:20:51.920 --> 00:20:56.200 they're visiting the site, not even necessarily engaging with a form, and we 309 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:00.599 can run that against a variety of data tools that tell us what their text 310 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:03.240 act looks like and whether or not bombomb would plug into it. Well, 311 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:06.950 because they use sales for so they use en desk or they use Gmail or 312 00:21:06.990 --> 00:21:11.029 they use outlook and so you're exactly right and I like this idea that we 313 00:21:11.190 --> 00:21:15.789 can, not only can, but should invest more and people who are potentially 314 00:21:15.069 --> 00:21:19.140 worth more. And for hardcore dive on that. I had recently the author 315 00:21:19.180 --> 00:21:23.420 of the customer centricity playbook. When she brought it was really a financial conversation, 316 00:21:23.859 --> 00:21:26.579 but she made the same arguments at it and just going back to, 317 00:21:26.660 --> 00:21:30.140 you know, the cost pressures you talked about in the beginning. Costs more 318 00:21:30.180 --> 00:21:33.650 to acquire and yet competitions so high that you know, potentially lifetime values threatened 319 00:21:33.650 --> 00:21:37.809 because switching costs are so, so easy and looks there's so much competition and 320 00:21:38.089 --> 00:21:41.450 the price expectation is lower. We need to really pay attention to the to 321 00:21:41.529 --> 00:21:47.759 the financial aspects of these things so separately. You offered a number of very 322 00:21:47.839 --> 00:21:52.160 useful frameworks in the book, but because this one in particular, when I 323 00:21:52.319 --> 00:21:55.200 when I read it out, it sounded a heck of a lot like customer 324 00:21:55.279 --> 00:21:59.000 experience and brand experienced the way I think about it, and you've already touched 325 00:21:59.039 --> 00:22:03.109 on it, but I think using the UCD framework, understand, communicate, 326 00:22:03.190 --> 00:22:04.470 deliver. If you just walk that out a little bit, I think that'll 327 00:22:04.509 --> 00:22:10.589 make your initial response on the definition of customer experience even more tangible for people. 328 00:22:11.230 --> 00:22:14.589 That's fans. So those of you that don't know what the UCD framework 329 00:22:14.630 --> 00:22:19.099 stands for, its really just understanding your custper and understanding your value and communicating 330 00:22:19.180 --> 00:22:23.099 that to your customers and then delivering on it. So if you're going to 331 00:22:23.180 --> 00:22:27.779 build any business, that I think is framework could apply. Is Really I 332 00:22:27.940 --> 00:22:32.130 mean, I built it for product on businesses, but I apply it to 333 00:22:32.210 --> 00:22:36.250 my own and it works. And so the first part is just really understanding 334 00:22:36.369 --> 00:22:40.809 your value and your user and so that's just number one. Like, if 335 00:22:40.849 --> 00:22:44.839 you're not really focusing on that specific piece, you're going to be creating rock 336 00:22:44.960 --> 00:22:48.279 products. You're not going to know what to communicate with them and really how 337 00:22:48.359 --> 00:22:52.319 to even personize that experience. And so one of the the biggest things I 338 00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:56.000 see people really just not investing enough and is that first part, and that's 339 00:22:56.039 --> 00:23:00.029 really the whole foundation of building a great businesses understanding that value and how you 340 00:23:00.109 --> 00:23:04.509 can help people better. Where's the second part? Is really how to communicate 341 00:23:04.789 --> 00:23:08.829 your value to people. And so how do you do that? Especially for 342 00:23:08.990 --> 00:23:12.900 his OPPA companies, there's many different ways. There's obviously the text on your 343 00:23:12.940 --> 00:23:17.619 websites. There's also your pricing, and so I think whenever it comes to 344 00:23:17.900 --> 00:23:23.059 product led businesses, it's actually a little trickier because the value that you're communicating 345 00:23:23.140 --> 00:23:26.690 is often tied to your customer position model. And so what I call it 346 00:23:26.890 --> 00:23:33.410 is a range marriage between your pricing and your customer acquisition model. And so 347 00:23:33.970 --> 00:23:37.210 how it works is essentially, let's say you give away all your features and 348 00:23:37.289 --> 00:23:42.119 everything on your product for free. Like your customer acquisition model it's skyrockets, 349 00:23:42.400 --> 00:23:47.519 but you're pricing and your revenue model it tanks and you go out of business. 350 00:23:47.680 --> 00:23:49.519 So you got to find like where's that happy medium, and so I 351 00:23:49.599 --> 00:23:53.200 think for a lot of businesses, I think of benefit from having a value 352 00:23:53.279 --> 00:23:57.390 meshup. What that's using email subscribers, if here in the email kind of 353 00:23:57.430 --> 00:24:02.910 space, or even per video or something like that's really kind of a line. 354 00:24:03.269 --> 00:24:06.710 You're pricing with the value that someone gets from your product, so that 355 00:24:06.829 --> 00:24:08.470 whenever they do make that decision, if they should go ahead of it, 356 00:24:08.950 --> 00:24:11.579 they're only paying for what they're really getting out of the product. And then 357 00:24:11.619 --> 00:24:17.059 the last part is really just making sure that you deliver on that value. 358 00:24:17.180 --> 00:24:21.099 And so that, to me, is really where I kind of break down 359 00:24:21.140 --> 00:24:26.089 that whole proceed versus experience value and really had to eliminate the value gap. 360 00:24:26.250 --> 00:24:30.849 Like when people do sign up, they have this expectation and did you meet 361 00:24:30.890 --> 00:24:33.410 it in the reality? And so a lot of companies in the reason why 362 00:24:33.529 --> 00:24:37.599 product that comes are taking off is because there's been so many companies where there's 363 00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:42.480 just a massive, like a crater of a value gap. And so the 364 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:45.440 bigger that is, the heart it is going to be for you to convert 365 00:24:45.519 --> 00:24:51.519 people into happy paying customers, and so that's really the the UCD frame, 366 00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:53.670 or get a high level, but I think the the big part there is 367 00:24:53.750 --> 00:24:59.470 focus on understanding your customer and eliminate your value gaps so that whatever people are, 368 00:24:59.630 --> 00:25:03.269 whatever you're communicating people, aligns with what you're delivering. Yeah, so 369 00:25:03.349 --> 00:25:06.029 useful as as you were talking about that gap, as thinking, okay, 370 00:25:06.069 --> 00:25:10.140 probably the bigger the gap, when done poorly, we're often probably pouring people 371 00:25:10.220 --> 00:25:12.980 into a CS team to try to help. Like you know, you said, 372 00:25:14.019 --> 00:25:15.980 creators like to try to like fill it up and raise people up like 373 00:25:17.059 --> 00:25:21.339 it is heavy manual liftway, when in fact a great product experience can do 374 00:25:21.380 --> 00:25:23.369 a lot of that for you. You usually use the word that I wanted 375 00:25:23.410 --> 00:25:26.049 to go to next. I feel like one of the themes. Obviously it's 376 00:25:26.049 --> 00:25:30.730 used explicitly throughout the book, but it's one of those words. It's a 377 00:25:30.730 --> 00:25:33.769 little bit buzzy and so I think there are variety definitions on it. Talk 378 00:25:33.890 --> 00:25:38.720 to me about what you think of when you think about personalization. I think 379 00:25:38.759 --> 00:25:41.880 that word gets thrown a lot around a lot. I think it's kind of 380 00:25:41.920 --> 00:25:47.480 like value or authenticity. How do you think about personalization and its value and 381 00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:52.549 it's importance in this context? So in this context, the way I really 382 00:25:52.109 --> 00:25:57.509 love personalization and see our work best is really based on outcomes. So if 383 00:25:57.509 --> 00:26:02.670 I could sign up for your product, like there's yes, it as video, 384 00:26:02.789 --> 00:26:04.259 but there's specific use cases. Am I going to use it? To 385 00:26:04.339 --> 00:26:07.900 Send IT TO PROSPECTS? This is going to be used for marketing, and 386 00:26:08.099 --> 00:26:12.819 so the best personization, whenever it comes your product, really is focused around 387 00:26:12.859 --> 00:26:18.769 those core outcomes. And then what you can do within the product experience is, 388 00:26:18.809 --> 00:26:21.210 if someone clicks on, let's say, I want to send the videos 389 00:26:21.250 --> 00:26:25.650 for prospects, you're accelerating them to that part of the products that they actually 390 00:26:25.690 --> 00:26:29.329 care about and you actually will help them create that first video to go out 391 00:26:29.369 --> 00:26:33.559 to one of their prospects, because that is an amazing customer experience. That 392 00:26:33.680 --> 00:26:37.440 is helping them do exactly what they signed up to do and you're just helping 393 00:26:37.480 --> 00:26:40.440 them a lot. So, Personiz, issue for me is really just making 394 00:26:40.440 --> 00:26:42.920 sure that your products, it helps people get to that point that they care 395 00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:48.230 about a lot quicker. It's great. So you're a marketer who's kind of 396 00:26:48.349 --> 00:26:52.309 made this shift, I'd say product marketing, but it's so much bigger than 397 00:26:52.349 --> 00:26:55.910 that. But as a market WHO's made a transition in thought, in focus 398 00:26:55.990 --> 00:27:00.779 on the product experience, what do you wish more marketers understood about the product 399 00:27:00.900 --> 00:27:07.259 function? Yeah, so I think it's about time a lot of people start 400 00:27:07.420 --> 00:27:12.460 looking at the product as your marketing, like the product is your marketing, 401 00:27:12.859 --> 00:27:17.650 and the more or I guess, the sooner you realize that, the more 402 00:27:17.690 --> 00:27:19.089 you can look at that product and say, how can you help me? 403 00:27:19.569 --> 00:27:23.009 Because a marketer, there's a lot of ways your product can help you. 404 00:27:23.130 --> 00:27:26.930 And so I did mention a little bit earlier when growing to the UCD framework, 405 00:27:27.009 --> 00:27:30.400 like your customer position model, like if you, let's say, give 406 00:27:30.440 --> 00:27:33.960 away some of those features for free, that's that's marketing and it's really helping 407 00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:38.480 power that part of your business to get more people incentivized to actually try out 408 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:41.759 your product and see what some of those features can do to help them in 409 00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:47.549 their lives. So I think for any marketer WHO's trying to make that switch 410 00:27:47.789 --> 00:27:49.670 to start asking is out how that product can help you, because there is 411 00:27:51.029 --> 00:27:52.670 going to be a ton of ways that can help you. It's good. 412 00:27:53.069 --> 00:27:56.869 The summit. I've been leaning on the book a lot because I read it 413 00:27:56.950 --> 00:28:00.859 somewhat recently. I just reread it. As I mentioned before we hit record. 414 00:28:00.900 --> 00:28:03.539 I always read with the Pencil so I can go back through it and 415 00:28:03.940 --> 00:28:06.660 rip out notes and things. So that's all top of mine for me. 416 00:28:06.819 --> 00:28:08.700 But talk a little bit about the summit. You were kind enough to invite 417 00:28:08.700 --> 00:28:11.299 me into it to offer some some training. As part of that. You 418 00:28:11.420 --> 00:28:15.930 invited people from a wide variety of companies and even a wide variety of funks 419 00:28:15.970 --> 00:28:19.369 within organizations. What we trying to do with the summit? What's the state 420 00:28:19.410 --> 00:28:22.329 of it? You have another one come in like talk a little bit about 421 00:28:22.329 --> 00:28:26.599 summit. Yeah, absolutely. So thanks again from chess. Getting that was 422 00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:30.559 awesome. And so for the product led summit, the whole goal of it 423 00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:36.880 is really just to democratize what product led growth is all about. So what 424 00:28:37.039 --> 00:28:41.630 I'm doing is really reaching out to Sass operators who are actually doing the work, 425 00:28:41.670 --> 00:28:45.589 who are really great at what they're doing, and just asking them to 426 00:28:45.829 --> 00:28:51.109 share how they're doing it with other folks. And so that whole model, 427 00:28:51.150 --> 00:28:55.740 although it seems very simple, is really taking off because there's so many people 428 00:28:55.779 --> 00:29:00.700 are realizing you know, there's other companies just like them who are building product 429 00:29:00.700 --> 00:29:03.539 that businesses, and those are kind of their their peers, and they want 430 00:29:03.539 --> 00:29:07.500 to see how they're doing it. And that is the one of the best 431 00:29:07.500 --> 00:29:11.690 ways you can really learn is from someone who may be maybe one or two 432 00:29:11.690 --> 00:29:15.490 years ahead of your business and you get to really dissect and just learn from 433 00:29:15.529 --> 00:29:18.569 those people and see how they're doing it. And so with the summit, 434 00:29:18.609 --> 00:29:22.730 that's really what I'm hoping to do with it, because product led growth they 435 00:29:22.809 --> 00:29:26.640 can be this crazy looking thing, like it's great way to grow Your Business, 436 00:29:26.839 --> 00:29:33.160 but how? And so that's really what I'm hoping to share through a 437 00:29:33.240 --> 00:29:36.880 lot of other experts at the summit and break it down love it. So 438 00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:40.630 from what you've learned from these people and in your own experience, this going 439 00:29:40.670 --> 00:29:42.990 to be kind of a medium size setups to so stay with me. You 440 00:29:44.190 --> 00:29:47.910 have a product in the DEV team that are ideally joined at the hip, 441 00:29:48.509 --> 00:29:51.829 you have sales and marketing, which ideally joined at the hip. You have 442 00:29:52.029 --> 00:29:56.859 CS. The hope is is tied into marketing into sales pretty closely and that 443 00:29:56.980 --> 00:30:02.940 there's good communication around all of them. If a company that's been operating somewhat 444 00:30:02.940 --> 00:30:07.210 traditionally is trying to reorganize or restructure, like are their new roles that need 445 00:30:07.410 --> 00:30:12.730 to be created? Are Their new cross functional meetings that need to happen? 446 00:30:12.849 --> 00:30:17.890 From your experience and learning from all of these different people in a bunch of 447 00:30:17.970 --> 00:30:19.730 awesome companies, by the way, if you haven't looked at the summit, 448 00:30:21.410 --> 00:30:25.680 someone listening to this episode, I mean West is rounded up people from tons 449 00:30:25.720 --> 00:30:29.160 of companies you've heard of and then other companies that you maybe haven't but if 450 00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:33.720 accomplished some really cool thing. So through all of that learning, what would 451 00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:37.630 you recommend from an organizational or structural standpoint, or even a functional standpoint, 452 00:30:37.670 --> 00:30:41.910 where some of the first steps, as people are starting to move this way, 453 00:30:41.990 --> 00:30:45.670 what is it require to get going? Yeah, and so that part 454 00:30:45.750 --> 00:30:49.700 really depends on kind what stage you're at, and so if you are, 455 00:30:51.259 --> 00:30:53.740 let's say, just a manager at a big company, you really have to 456 00:30:55.059 --> 00:30:59.420 try and get your management on board and that would be step one. But 457 00:30:59.579 --> 00:31:03.890 if you are let's say managements and you are on board and you're trying to 458 00:31:03.930 --> 00:31:07.690 think about how you can make this work in your business, well on that 459 00:31:07.849 --> 00:31:11.730 pretty good case. But I recommends is trying to set up a tiger team, 460 00:31:11.970 --> 00:31:15.529 so gets some people, or like at least one person on the parting 461 00:31:15.569 --> 00:31:19.240 team, one person from the sales team, engineering and support, and really 462 00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:23.720 just set them down and try and think about how you can improve this whole 463 00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:27.599 product experience. And the reason I recommend getting people from a variety of different 464 00:31:27.640 --> 00:31:32.990 backgrounds through the company is because that's exactly what you need to be as a 465 00:31:33.029 --> 00:31:37.069 great customer experience. It is not just you know that on boarding or that 466 00:31:37.150 --> 00:31:41.069 product team that handles everything is like. No, everyone has that touch point 467 00:31:41.150 --> 00:31:44.430 with the customers. So you need to make sure that everyone's aligned on why 468 00:31:44.509 --> 00:31:48.940 we're doing this and actually able to implement this, because it's one thing. 469 00:31:48.980 --> 00:31:52.579 I mean, markers can talk a lot, whenever it comes to creating that 470 00:31:52.700 --> 00:31:56.180 product experience and actually rolling it out, you do need other people. So 471 00:31:56.579 --> 00:32:00.380 for that management, if you do want to have that product, that a 472 00:32:00.460 --> 00:32:04.210 company and roll it out slowly, I would recommend building a tiger team. 473 00:32:04.690 --> 00:32:07.130 I really appreciate that you took it there, because that alignment in the multiple 474 00:32:07.170 --> 00:32:14.329 voices into planning, strategizing, decisionmaking and execution is so, so important, 475 00:32:14.369 --> 00:32:17.759 especially going forward, because we all see the product differently, we all see 476 00:32:17.839 --> 00:32:22.400 that customer differently based on our different seats in the house. You know, 477 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:24.799 we're a medium sized company, about a hundred and fifty different people, so 478 00:32:24.960 --> 00:32:28.960 still small enough that we can get everyone in one room or try to communicate 479 00:32:29.000 --> 00:32:30.509 things, but it's also big enough that, you know, even in a 480 00:32:30.630 --> 00:32:35.390 healthy culture, can get really, really silod and so breaking that down and 481 00:32:35.470 --> 00:32:38.349 getting multiple voices and perspectives and is so important for me, just out of 482 00:32:38.349 --> 00:32:43.710 my own ignorance, tiger is tiger and acronym. Is that like what is 483 00:32:43.789 --> 00:32:49.099 captured in the term tiger? Yeah, so tigers can move quick and fast. 484 00:32:49.420 --> 00:32:52.059 Okay, so I think that's why it gets the Tigers down because, 485 00:32:52.220 --> 00:32:57.059 like sometimes it might be called a growth team or something like that. Yeah, 486 00:32:57.180 --> 00:33:00.609 and I find the more companies our work with especially even at the scale 487 00:33:00.650 --> 00:33:05.329 you're at, a lot of the management definitely relies on a team that can 488 00:33:05.490 --> 00:33:09.730 move really quickly and they have breadth of skills and they can really focus on 489 00:33:09.809 --> 00:33:14.359 a lot of different things and at least test and that these ideas pricker. 490 00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:17.759 It's good. This has been awesome. I really really appreciate what you're doing. 491 00:33:17.880 --> 00:33:22.799 I think in a previous email exchange we had, you mentioned that maybe 492 00:33:22.839 --> 00:33:24.720 a dozen of our team members are subscribed to some of the stuff that you're 493 00:33:24.720 --> 00:33:29.950 putting out, and I'm more yeah, and and so. So we really 494 00:33:29.990 --> 00:33:35.029 appreciate what you're up to and and I think you're a hundred percent looking forward. 495 00:33:35.069 --> 00:33:37.549 Again, just thinking about the themes that I that I read, that 496 00:33:37.630 --> 00:33:42.099 I've experienced in in some of the web based in email communication you put out 497 00:33:42.460 --> 00:33:45.660 and the other conversations I've heard on the show, I just there's so many 498 00:33:45.059 --> 00:33:49.700 connective themes here and so I wish you continued success doing that. But before 499 00:33:49.740 --> 00:33:52.099 I let you go, I've got a few things for you. First, 500 00:33:52.900 --> 00:33:55.730 because relationships are our number one core value here on the show and at bombomb 501 00:33:57.009 --> 00:33:59.890 I love to give you the chance to think or mention someone who's had a 502 00:33:59.930 --> 00:34:04.329 positive impact on your life or career and give a mention to a company or 503 00:34:04.450 --> 00:34:08.170 more that you feel is really delivering for you a great experience as a customer. 504 00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:14.519 Okay, so I'll start with the amazing customer experience, sir. Right 505 00:34:14.599 --> 00:34:19.119 now I'm reading the everything book and which is all about Amazon, and so 506 00:34:19.360 --> 00:34:23.909 I really like the inside scoop on just how Amazon really approaches their whole customer 507 00:34:23.949 --> 00:34:28.269 experience. And, Sarah, the one thing that I thought a lot of 508 00:34:28.429 --> 00:34:31.789 companies don't think about that I love that they're focusing on is the fact that 509 00:34:31.869 --> 00:34:36.869 they're trying to focus on how they can charge to less for everything that they 510 00:34:36.989 --> 00:34:38.860 offer, where I think a lot of companies are always on the other end 511 00:34:38.860 --> 00:34:43.860 of that and trying to think about how we can just charge as much as 512 00:34:43.940 --> 00:34:46.659 possible. And whenever it comes to product a businesses, I see a lot 513 00:34:46.699 --> 00:34:52.889 of them trying to democratize just how to do some of these tools and really 514 00:34:52.929 --> 00:34:55.409 get people on board. Even though I was talking to vco of hot jar 515 00:34:55.809 --> 00:35:00.690 and I was one of the things it was really expensive to create heat maps 516 00:35:00.969 --> 00:35:05.289 earlier on, and so they made sure that people could get this amazing tool 517 00:35:05.329 --> 00:35:08.719 at a fair price, and so I really respect a lot of businesses that 518 00:35:08.760 --> 00:35:15.079 are prioritizing that and making sure that they can create an accessible products for the 519 00:35:15.159 --> 00:35:20.079 masses and help a ton of people get a lot of value. That's a 520 00:35:20.199 --> 00:35:22.869 really, really interesting dynamic. I think it reminds me of us. So 521 00:35:22.869 --> 00:35:28.309 I came up in broadcast television, running marketing teams inside like local TV stations, 522 00:35:28.670 --> 00:35:30.309 and I would say for viewership like flat is the new up. If 523 00:35:30.349 --> 00:35:34.510 we could have the same number of viewers for a given shower to given time 524 00:35:34.550 --> 00:35:37.820 as we did the year before, like we win. It's so interesting. 525 00:35:37.860 --> 00:35:39.739 I feel like so much of the dynamic you're talking about here, people are 526 00:35:39.780 --> 00:35:45.699 trying to hold on to the price point that they have while there's so much 527 00:35:45.699 --> 00:35:52.449 momentum and inertia toward keep free and there are a lot of dynamics at playing. 528 00:35:52.489 --> 00:35:54.809 You already were were clever enough to introduce those early on in our conversation 529 00:35:55.010 --> 00:35:59.369 here. How about? How about a person who's really affected the way you 530 00:35:59.409 --> 00:36:01.530 view the world or the work that you do or really propped you up at 531 00:36:01.530 --> 00:36:05.960 a time that you needed it? All right, so this one goes back 532 00:36:06.000 --> 00:36:09.960 to one of the core values for myself is leave everything better than the way 533 00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:14.960 you found it, and so that's is one thing that I've tried to live 534 00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:19.349 my whole life by and that comes to my grandpat so power to him. 535 00:36:20.309 --> 00:36:24.869 That's excellent. I that stewardship, sensibility and approach, whether it's to your 536 00:36:24.949 --> 00:36:30.909 work, whether it's to another person's life, whether it's to at any aspect 537 00:36:30.949 --> 00:36:36.019 of the lives we lead. It's such good wisdom and I hope folks write 538 00:36:36.059 --> 00:36:37.900 that down or take it to heart. We do need to leave things better 539 00:36:37.940 --> 00:36:40.619 than we found them. You left this show better than you found it. 540 00:36:40.780 --> 00:36:45.940 I appreciate you time so much. People want to go deeper on any of 541 00:36:45.980 --> 00:36:47.250 the things that we talked about. What are a few ways to catch up 542 00:36:47.289 --> 00:36:51.690 with you or some of the events or the book or etc. How can 543 00:36:51.769 --> 00:36:54.889 people follow up on this? Yeah, absolutely so, regardless of if you 544 00:36:54.969 --> 00:36:58.929 want to find out more about the book, what my business is up to 545 00:36:59.130 --> 00:37:04.360 or the product led summit, just head on over to product ledcom. Awesome, 546 00:37:04.519 --> 00:37:07.440 easy enough to do it. was that a was that domain just available? 547 00:37:07.159 --> 00:37:10.519 Nope, okay, I didn't think so, but you know, at 548 00:37:10.559 --> 00:37:15.400 the same time it is really, really early. Product ledcom. West Bush. 549 00:37:15.599 --> 00:37:17.590 Thank you so much for your time. Here on the customer experience podcast. 550 00:37:17.869 --> 00:37:22.469 I appreciate you and I wish you continued success. Thank you so much. 551 00:37:23.150 --> 00:37:28.510 One of the questions that I end every conversation with is what company is 552 00:37:28.590 --> 00:37:32.699 delivering a great experience for you as a customer, and West went where other 553 00:37:32.820 --> 00:37:38.619 guests have gone before, which is Amazon EA's speed, convenience and, I 554 00:37:38.659 --> 00:37:44.139 guess, in one word, frictionless. If you want to hear more conversations 555 00:37:44.179 --> 00:37:49.170 about how to create and deliver a better experience for your customers, whether product 556 00:37:49.250 --> 00:37:52.449 led, sales led or some other form of growth, check out the customer 557 00:37:52.570 --> 00:38:00.079 experience podcast in your preferred player. The customer experience podcast. My name is 558 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:04.559 Ethan Butte. I host the customer experience podcast and I thank you for listening 559 00:38:04.800 --> 00:38:10.760 to the B tob growth show. I hate it when podcasts incessantly ask their 560 00:38:10.800 --> 00:38:15.190 listeners for reviews, but I get why they do it, because reviews are 561 00:38:15.349 --> 00:38:17.989 enormously helpful when you're trying to grow a podcast audience. So here's what we 562 00:38:19.030 --> 00:38:22.190 decided to do. If you leave a review for be tob growth and apple 563 00:38:22.269 --> 00:38:27.179 podcasts and email me a screenshot of the review to James at Sweet Fish Mediacom, 564 00:38:27.539 --> 00:38:30.860 I'll send you a signed copy of my new book. Content based networking 565 00:38:30.139 --> 00:38:34.500 how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. We get a review, 566 00:38:34.539 --> 00:38:36.699 you get a free book. We both win.