Transcript
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Digital, virtual, contactless or contact
free, no matter how you describe it,
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no matter what business you're in,
your customer experiences more physically handsoff today
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than it was at the start of
two thousand and twenty, and it's going
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to stay that way for the foreseeable
future. So today we're talking about how
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to create exceptional online experiences that drive
customer engagement and produce results, and we're
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doing it with a gentleman who researches
and designs human computer interactions and who's focused
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on customer experience, user experience and
learning experience. He spent years inside companies
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like Hewlett Packard, adulant technologies and
Deluxe Corporation. He's currently a speaker,
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author, researcher and presenter with the
Human Computer Mastermind Academy at it's the USERSCOM.
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He also serves as principal user experience
researcher with answer lab and is leading
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in depth research for Google, Amazon, Cisco and other world class companies.
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Bob Berry, welcome to the customer
experience podcast. Thanks you thing. Glad
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to be here. Looking forward to
this. Yeah, me too. We
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haven't done I'm hoping we get maybe
a little bit technical or we really operate
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at that human machine intersection point.
It comes up thematically, but certainly not
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with the depth of exposure and knowledge
that you have to that. But before
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we get going, in earnest answer, lab is based in San Francisco,
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but you're here with me, not
physically, but you're here with me on
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zoom in Colorado Springs and you've been
here for years. So how did you
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land here and what do you love
about being here? Well, I actually
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grew up in Colorado. I'm not
originally from Colorado, but I've spend the
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majority of my life here. So, as you mentioned, I worked for
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Lett Packard and you know the asual
and still has that facility out on gardener
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the God's road. So that's the
thing. I work there for fifteen years,
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back in the days when Bill Hewlett
and Dave Packard were still alive.
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So I've always enjoyed Colorado. Love
the outdoor life, love the business opportunities
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here. So colorail springs and the
front rangement home for most of my years
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awesome. And it is a much
different town than it was even before I
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arrived, which was about thirteen years
ago. So I can't imagine the amount
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of change you've seen here locally.
Yeah, it has changed a lot.
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Fortunately, a lot of the beautiful
mountain areas and wilderness and everything that's west
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of here hasn't changed that much.
So we still get a chance to get
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away, and especially these days when
we're looking for opportunities for extreme social distancing
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that you know, those those places
are still available to us. Absolutely as
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fortune to be able to get out
with my son a couple times last week
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and it's awesome. I love how
close everything is to Colorado Springs with regard
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to wilderness, outdoors, etc.
So you do a lot of work with
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experience. So we'll start with your
definition or your thoughts or characteristics of customer
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experience, in particular. When I
say customer experience, what does that mean?
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Do you Bob? So I interpret
that pretty broadly. So I interpret
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customer experience is virtually any contact that
you have with any individuals, humans,
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prospects, customers, users that may
interact with your business. And you know,
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we tend to think of this whole
concept of Omni Channel, which is
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really looking holistically at all of the
ways that you might interact with or touch
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a customer. That certainly could include
many different ways online, but it can
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also include phone, it can include
facetoface contact. That can include printed materials,
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pr it doesn't really leave anything out
when it comes to your interactions and
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how you might make offers to,
or serve or support customers at any point
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through the product or customer life cycle. Great definition covers a lot of the
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themes that we talk about here.
In particular, the one that you really
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hit in a variety of different ways
is that it's every single touch point,
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human, analog, digital, etc. And it's so important that. So
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that's the reason we host this show
is to is to talk about how,
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if so many people, different people
inside your organization, are involved in creating
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and delivering these various aspects of the
experience, how do we do it in
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a way that's intentional and aligned?
And so you also are a user experience
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expert. You've done a lot of
work and learning experience talk about these other
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experiences and maybe where they intersect with
or diverge from customer experience. So I
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guess it's difficult to come up with
a lot of really comprehensive definitions because this
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can vary a lot from one type
of business to another, from one type
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of customer to another. One type
of system or interactive platform or interface to
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another. But in general user experience
tends to go deeper. It probably does
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not cover as many of those touch
points that we discussed when we were defining
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customer experience. So, for example, it may not cover as much around
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what might you what you might consider
customer service or support, although there may
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be elements of that as well.
The user experience really talks a lot more
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about the the fine points, in
the particulars of how a human being interacts
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with some kind of interactive system or
platform or APP or website or device,
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and that back human computer interaction,
that HCI that we often refer to.
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There's a lot of science that goes
into creating those types of interactions and a
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lot of science that goes into evaluating
and optimizing those interactions. We work on
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a basic premise that all business results, and it challenge anyone to think of
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one that doesn't fall within this definition. All business results are individuals making specific
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choices within the user experiences we provide
them and in a sense the user experience
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then drives all business results and actually
drives the world economy because all of those
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individual decisions and reactions and choices and
responses from users or customers add up to
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all the business outcomes that we can
imagine and therefore what drives the world world
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economy. So experience and how somebody
interacts with those virtual interfaces is really at
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the center of so much of what
we're trying to do and ways that we're
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trying to serve and influence our customers
in our prospects. Do you separate at
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all or are they all bundled together? And if you do separate them,
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is there any hierarchy with regard to
the human feelings or thoughts or behaviors?
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Do you separate those elements? Do
you study them independently, and what is
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the relationship between those? Yeah,
I'm glad you ask that. So in
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user experience research, and there's certainly
elements of this, and customer experience as
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well, and user experience research,
we really create a context around that virtual
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interaction, around those human computer interactions, and that context is really understanding the
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individual, understanding their narrative. So
we talk about things like ethnographies, we
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talk about journeys, we talk about
personas, and that really all that out
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happens before we actually get into those
virtual interactions. We want to understand these
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individuals, their lives, whether it's
a business or a personal context. What
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motivates them? What are their needs? What kind of outcomes are they looking
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for? What is their level of
technical capability? How savvy are they about
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technology? What's their economic status?
So there's a whole lot of things we
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want to learn about all those individuals. That puts that virtual interaction, that
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interface, in a much more relevant
context when we try to interact with them
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and serve them, to do something
useful for them. So that's that context
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is really critical to understanding the experience
because you can't like separate their interactive experience
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with your APP or your website from
the larger context of their lives and what's
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important to them and what they're trying
to accomplish. Right, it's the whole
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picture, or as much of the
picture as you can get, is so
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much more useful in terms of making
decisions that are going to be helpful for
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them. Do you work? I'm
going to go one follow up there.
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You know, when we start talking
about ethnographies and journeys and Personas you know,
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you're obviously talking about things that sales
and marketing likes to talk about.
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Have you found from an organizational standpoint, from a workflow standpoint, from a
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project development and management standpoint. Does
this work? It seems like it could.
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Should would intersect very directly with with
what sales and marketing is doing in
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terms of who they're bringing to the
experience. Do you find that that tends
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to be the case? Absolutely,
and a lot of the work that I
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do with a lot of the brands
that you mentioned, with Google, facebook,
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Amazon, a lot of the work
we do with them is in fact
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evaluating and guiding people through the the
front end experiences. How do people interact
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with those companies offerings, their marketing
programs, their online catalogs, their offers,
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their social media, so the whole
upfront process when they're still in the
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prospect stage or they're still in the
learning and discovering and shopping stage. In
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many cases, we we in many
cases may actually focus more on that then
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we do the actual transaction or what
happens after the transaction, because that part
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of it is so essential to those
companies, in those businesses being successful and
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those users, in those customers finding
what they need. You've already kind of
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driven by this. I always like
to ask something like this for folks who
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aren't familiar. Can you tell us
a little bit about answer lab, like
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who is your ideal customer? Is
it these these giant, you know,
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world class brands, or is it
more than that? Like, who's your
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ideal customer and what specifically do you
solve for them? So we do a
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lot of the kind of research we've
been talked about for those brands and a
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lot of major brands in high tech, in automotive, in pharmaceuticals and financial
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in just about any of the major
industrial categories or customer segments that you can
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imagine. And these are companies that
rely heavily on the the virtual platforms,
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in the virtual tools and the virtual
offerings that they provide to the market place.
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And again, that can include everything
from the online catalogs that they provide,
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the shopping experiences, the social media
programs that they run, all of
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the ways that they do actually actually
do business with customers and transact orders,
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and then, in many cases,
how they support those customers and how they
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maintain ongoing relationships with them once they
become customers. And so these are these
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are companies that, for them,
user experience and customer experience is not an
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event it's an ongoing process. It's
built into their culture. You look at
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a company like Amazon and they've been
doing this from the very beginning and the
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user experience that they have is often
pointed to as sort of the gold standard
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and it's one that obviously has served
them very well. And if you look
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at the recent performance and everything that's
happened over the last few months and how
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successful they've been in providing all of
the products that we don't go out and
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shop for anymore, clearly they have
an interface that billions of people are familiar
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with and comfortable with and use on
a regular basis and has really become a
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critical part of the world we live
in today. So we help them optimize
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those experiences so people at all levels
can make sense out of those, can
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get what they need and can be
successful and getting the products and services that
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are required for them to be to
be successful. Awesome. It's a great
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example and I think almost all of
us listening should be able to relate to
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that one. For me, I
think the most dangerous thing they've done is
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the buy now button. Particularly in
mobile. It's just so easy to hit
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it on purpose or at accident,
like here we go it's shoes, just
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that easy. So before we go
one step further, and you were right
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there into you know how things are
changing maybe for some other businesses. You
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know the Amazon had this built in
from day one, but other people are
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need to figure out how do we
turn maybe the physical into the virtual or
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the you know, things where we
might hand off physically to contactless operations,
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and getting into that, what part
of the organization are you typically plugging into
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when you come into do this type
of research? What I'm thinking about now
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is a listener who might be saying, Gosh, I don't know that I
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can hire answer lab because we're a
much, much smaller organization and we don't
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have a figured out yet and we
don't even know what research questions to ask.
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But we should be doing this type
of work, whether we do it
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internally or we hire it out.
Where do usually plug into the organization?
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We plug into a lot of different
places and actually I'm led you ask the
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question about the smaller organization. So
in addition to answer lab, as you
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mentioned at the beginning, I also
run this operation called it's the USERSCOM,
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which is the human computer mastermind academy. The mission there is to help smaller
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companies, entrepreneurs, professionals get introduced
to this world of understanding their users,
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really understanding the context and the narrative
and figuring out how to create the right
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kinds of experiences that are going to
help their businesses succeed and also help their
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customers, in their end users,
succeed. And so we do a lot
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of stuff for free. We do
a lot of stuff the very low cost.
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That's a whole different scale economically than
what a lot of those big brands
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do. So we provide that as
well. About to answer your question about
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where do you plug in in?
You used to be that the user experience,
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customer experience with sort of a side
operation. You know, it might
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be up attached somewhere in marketing and
might be attached somewhere in the IT Department
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or some cases it might be even
part of the sales operation. Right now,
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in many of these companies it's deeply
embedded in the culture and from top
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leadership on down, the boards of
directors, the CEOS, the CEIOS,
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they all pay very close attention to
this and the amount of funding that they
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provide is pretty substantial to continue these
this type of research, in this type
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kind of optimization ongoing. So in
many cases we may be talking to organizations
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that are running, you know,
the large marketing programs that are trying to
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promote and merchandise products and try to
influence customers and transact business online or offline
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as well. We may also plug
into the parts of the organization that are
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specifically responsible for Web and e commerce
and virtual platforms. You know, some
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companies are all about virtual their whole
operation, their whole mission is based on
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interactive virtual platforms, and so we
may plug into various parts of the organization
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depending on, you know, what
aspect of promotion and outbound or inbound marketing.
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You know, they probably have a
social media team, they probably have
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a content development team, they probably
have online catalogs that they're working with product
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merchandising. So all of these are
areas that that we might singularly plug in
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or we might plug into multiple aspects
of those as well. But in many
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cases a lot of this is recognized
and funded and tracked very closely from the
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top of the organization in the more
successful companies. It's fantastic and I am
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going to go out on limb.
I'm sure you'll go out there with me,
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if you have to, and say
these are the companies that are built
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to last, people that have that
embedded in the culture. So let's it.
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Let's get really specific to all the
changes that were forced upon basically every
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business that exists for the most part, and of course, some more than
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others, because some relied so much
more heavily on physical contact and physical interaction,
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human to human interaction, not just
via zoom or via phone or whatever,
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but actual human to human interactions.
At the risk of stating the obvious,
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can use start at the beginning and
maybe talk about the transformations that you've
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been seeing, or maybe the accelerated
rates of trance of transformation that you're seeing
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in reaction to the pandemic. Well, they the big driver, of course,
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is the need to go contactless.
So there are still tremendous amount of
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conflicting science out there about exactly how
this virus is transmitted and in the last
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few weeks in many parts of the
country the numbers of new cases has gone
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up dramatically. Yet we still don't
really understand how this was transmitted. You
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know, my wife and I have
five kids that are scattered throughout the west
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and we're debating going on a road
trip in a few weeks to go visit
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them. But we really it's an
ongoing research and discussion process about is this
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really feasible and what are the risks
that we're taking and what are the things
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we should do and shouldn't do?
On any given day, if you follow
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the news, you get conflicting stories
and data and science and recommendations. So
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it's about contactless and in so many
ways not just businesses but organizations of all
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types have been forced to figure out
how to do what they do without doing
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any physical contact or minimizing physical contact. You know, I gradle off a
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number of examples just all the companies
and businesses, operations and their employees that
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have simply gone home to work,
that have gone remote. And so here
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we are on zoom and the use
of zoom is exploded. So telework in
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and of itself has been a major
transformation. Some of that's not going to
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go back. It's going to stay
where people are going to continue to do
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that. You look at education at
all levels, from preschool all the way
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up to postgraduate in college, it's
completely changed and honestly, we haven't figured
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that out. If you look the
jury still out on how to make that
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work and with everybody pulling students out
of classes at all levels back in March
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and then trying to cope from March
until now, I think the general consisus
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is we failed, we didn't we
haven't figured it out. We have a
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long way to go. Health and
medicine is changed dramatically. So I'm trying
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to catch up on some of my
doctor's appointments that I've been procrastinating on the
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last few months, and a lot
of these now we're doing virtually. We're
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doing through zoom meeting, we're doing
through, you know, sharing records online,
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scheduling things and trying to do as
much as possible. You know.
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So pull examples in small businesses,
the restaurants that are allowing you to order
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online and pick up at the curb. You know, there's another example here
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in Colorado Springs up a construction company
that has gone totally video, where they
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will show you how to do video
with your phone of the space in your
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home that you want to have remodeled
and you send them the video, they'll
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come back to you with simulations of
what that space would look like with new
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materials, with a redesign. Then
they'll come back and they'll show you a
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simulation of how they're actually going to
come in and do the work and how
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they're going to maintain social distance.
And I've heard other examples of tailors that
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have figured out how to do measurements
using APPS and how to measure your body
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and send them your body measurements for
a new suit without having any we could
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go on and on and on about
all these examples of all the ways that
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we're figuring out how to do this. So it's some it's pervasive, a
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lot of it is very creative and
you know, as they say, necessity
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is the mother of invention and there's
a lot of new stuff being invented.
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Yeah, I love it in some
some of these examples, for example the
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one about the tailor you were use
the APP and it takes your measurements and
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get a custom cut suit for like
five or six hundred bucks. That's one
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of those where the idea, it's
an idea whose time has come. And
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then there's this other camp where it's
we've been doing this for a long time,
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successfully or unsuccessfully. How do we
adapt? And I think that's the
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that's the majority of a lot of
them and you know to your point,
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I mean we've added a couple trips
to Arizona. We have family down there
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and my son is looking at a
couple schools in Arizona. We've canceled two
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of those trips. So I can
imagine your thoughts around is this, is
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this good or not? In the
science is very, very challenging. It's
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also a lot of it is politicized, which makes it more confusing and there's
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a great deal of challenge here for
you know. I know that you're talking
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with a lot of folks, you're
doing a lot of presentations and engagements like
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this one we're enjoying right now.
What are a couple things that people have
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have found surprising or lowhanging fruit or
missed opportunities? What are some things that
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you're seeing that might be practical from
a takeaway standpoint for someone listening to improve
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what they're doing? For example,
specific to your touchless I just released an
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episode, by the time this releases, will have released a week or two
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before, with a gentleman who works
at a company. Michael Ashford works this
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company called the receptionist. They're based
up in Denver coincidentally, and they provide
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those ipads where people can punch in
and then it alerts the person you're coming
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to visit at the office, you
know, and all of this. And
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just to remove the idea that someone
has to touch an IPAD, they're adapting
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it so that it talks to your
mobile device, so you can check in
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on your own phone via this this, you know, the rest of this
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infrastructure. And so anyway, I
would assume that you're hearing a lot of
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star stories like that. Is there
anything surprising or easy see or challenging in
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particular, that that's been interesting to
you or helpful to others? Well,
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one of the things that we've done, and answer lab, which is very
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important in in and we have worked
with a lot of our customers and clients
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on this too, is the probably
the first priority is to make sure that
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you're being safe. So whatever whatever
new direction you're going or however you're running
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your option operation, make sure that, based on the best knowledge we have
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available today, make sure that you're
taking care of yourself, your family,
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your employees, your customers, your
clients. So as much as possible,
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minimize that physical contact and try to
find creative ways to deal and in a
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lot of the examples we've been talking
about. Companies of all sizes, of
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course, are doing this. They're
figuring out how to and even in the
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in the example you just mentioned with
the IPAD, even just physically touching something
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could be risky. So now let's
use voice, and certainly the voice technology
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has come far enough that we can
do that today. So look at the
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technologies that are available, look at
where you might be at risk or where
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you might be putting other people at
risk and, first of all, figured
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out how to maintain that safety in
that distance and minimize or eliminate those points
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of context so that you're not spreading
the virus first of all. Next,
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it's probably important to really look carefully
at where your customers are headed. One
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of the things that we're also book
missing a lot on is customer data.
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So in all of the marketing that
we do, certainly in many aspects of
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customer experience and User Experience, we've
learned a lot about our customers and as
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well as our prospects and and the
our ability to manage these data sets and
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optimize what we offer people and when
we offer it and all the things that
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we do before and after the sale
is based on these massive data sets that
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we've collected about our customers. Well, some of that data, maybe a
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lot of that data, may now
be suspect because people are losing their jobs,
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people are now working at home,
so they may no longer be using
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the, you know, the same
email systems that they did before, the
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same phone numbers that they did before. People may be changing jobs, customers
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may be pivoting, they may be
shifting their budgets or scaling back those all
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this transformation going on that's going to
render some, some portion of your customer
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data, your customer knowledge, obsolete, and so one of the things you
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have to start right now to do
is really start to understand how you're going
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to rebuild that knowledge, because if
you lose track of those customers and who
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they are and what their need,
that's going to create additional risk way.
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So that's a really important one.
Another short term, really important aspect of
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this is really to understand, you
know, as I mentioned earlier, all
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business outcomes are those individual choices that
people make within the experiences we provide them.
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So it's really important to understand what
those choices are, what represents a
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specific outcome that your customers have to
achieve that's going to have them be successful.
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And what outcomes do you need to
achieve as a business for you to
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be successful? You need to very
clearly articulate those and then begin to understand
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whether they're diverging or they're converging.
You know, as I've used this metaphor
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before about Wayne Gretzky, made the
point about his some of his success,
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or a lot of his success,
was based on skating to where the puck
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was going to be stead of where
the puck is or where it's been.
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So try to figure out three months, six months, a year out,
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and that's going to be difficult,
but try to figure out where the PUCK
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is going to be and decide whether
you're skating in the right are you going
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to be there when the puck gets
there or will hit it have already passed?
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So you got to understand those points
of success, those those outcomes and
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begin to anticipate what that future looks
like and what kind of data you're going
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to need and then how you're going
to make all of that happen in environment
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where you're keeping everybody safe. Three
fantastic caution sensitivity areas. I and of
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course, I really like where you
left there with the with the Gretzky quote,
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because there is so much changing,
just like there is in a live
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fast action you know, best players
in the world hockey game. There's a
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lot that's moving really, really quickly. You know, with regard to your
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own business, your own team members, your customers, their actual needs,
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the solution that you provide or the
way that you provide a has to change.
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It's been thematic, of course,
throughout the conversation so far. I
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want to double back really quickly,
Bob, to have this problem of asking
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multiple questions all the same time.
So I have partly held myself back there.
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But you know, this is something
that I see in in conversations on
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linked in in that type of thing, which is from your perspective. Is,
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you know, the way we're talking
about customer experience today or the way
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that we're talking about user experience?
Is this just new language or return to
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language for things that we've always worked
on and focused on? Is there actually
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anything new here? What's changed?
What stayed the same maybe over the past
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twenty years or so in these areas? So there, yeah, they're glad
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you asked that's a really good question. So there have been a number of
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major changes that have happened. Certainly
the shift to mobile has been a big
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one. So back in the day, when I first started doing this,
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when I worked with Hewlett Packard,
you know, we did everything on desktop
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computer using windows explorer browser, and
ninety five percent of the world that was
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what they used. Since so you
could just test that. The world is
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much different now. So there are
so many different devices out there, so
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many different APPS, different operating systems, and so it's really important that mobile
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be first, you know, and
that's really what our focus is on,
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especially now that a lot of people
have moved away from their work desktop and
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they're relying more and more on mobile. Even though they're not as mobile,
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they're actually relying more and more on
mobile devices to do what they need to
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do. So mobile is the is
the one of the big transformations. The
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other thing that we're starting to see
is a lot more intelligence in interactive systems,
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so augmented reality, virtual reality intelligence
systems, the ability for these interfaces
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to begin to learn who we are
at anticipate who we are. Those are
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going to be a those are going
to take a much larger role now in
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the ways that we're going to be
able to stay contactless. So you know,
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driverless cars and trucks are obviously coming. You know, the any of
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these examples that we've named, like, for example, the tailor example.
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You know, in order to be
able to measure body dimensions and translate those
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into something physical that actually it's on
your body, there has to be some
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intelligence built into those to be able
to understand how to process those algorithms.
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So those, those models, those
systems, those tools are going to become
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a lot more intelligent. So that's
a big deal and you're going to start
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to see more and more intelligence built
in two interfaces and tools and ways of
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interacting with one another and keeping things
contactless. And again, all those are
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all of those are individual experiences.
People are going to learn, need to
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learn how to use those, learn
how to make them effective for whatever outcomes
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they're seeking, and that's going to
require us to do more and more evaluation
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of those systems to make sure they're
functional, make sure people can make sense
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out of them. You know,
another one that we're going to start to
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see and which is going to be
a big deal is already a big deal,
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but it's going to become even more
a big deal is data privacy.
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So you know, we hear a
lot about that now, but if you
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you know, if you watch the
news, there are some major issues going
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on with some of our social media
platforms around data privacy. We have an
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election coming up which is going to
continue to a surface significant data privacy issues.
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You know, with all of the
social justice and all the protests going
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on. There's a lot of talk
about police use of facial recognition. That's
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going to be a big deal.
And what and the biggest one is probably
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going to be a key part of
solving in the coronavirus problem is going to
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be testing, tracing and tracking.
Now, smart devices and all the the
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phones we have in our pockets are
not going to be the solution, but
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they're probably going to be a key
part of the solution and people are going
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to resist, especially in this country. People are going to resist mightily having
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themselves tracked and their personal health tracked
and made available to other people. But
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are we going to be able to
solve the coronavirus problem if we can't do
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that? So that's a big deal. We haven't. We're a long way
401
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from even really backling that, much
less solving it. So those are some
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of the major things going on right
now and in some of these work just
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on the front end of them.
Really good observations, a lot of big
404
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ideas there. For folks who are
listening, I recommend that bounce back button
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on my phone. It in the
APP that I use. It's a sixty
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two bounce back, so maybe hit
that thing twice or a lot of really
407
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good ideas in there. I appreciate
you making that pass and it's really interesting
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that the what will we give away
in terms of privacy or information personally in
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00:31:07.569 --> 00:31:14.049
exchange for what type of value or
experience or entertainment? And it just mind
410
00:31:14.130 --> 00:31:15.650
blowing to me. As you said
it, I was like, yeah,
411
00:31:15.650 --> 00:31:18.599
there is going to be a lot
of resistance to health data and tracking.
412
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.279
At the same time, you know, you already pointed to the vulnerabilities of
413
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:26.720
social networks. Like I want to
see these, you know, ten second
414
00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:30.279
video clips and I'm willing to,
you know, put my personal information at
415
00:31:30.279 --> 00:31:33.150
risk in exchange for that, but
I'm not going to help track this virus
416
00:31:33.190 --> 00:31:37.750
down anyway. So much interesting stuff
going on. Can you do a quick
417
00:31:37.789 --> 00:31:41.670
pass here on learning in particular?
You know, I saw learning experiences as
418
00:31:41.710 --> 00:31:45.630
a lot of your background and it's
just something that's really of interest to me.
419
00:31:45.710 --> 00:31:49.259
I would assume that folks who are
this deep in a podcast episode are
420
00:31:49.380 --> 00:31:53.660
learners. If you listen to podcasts, you probably read books, digitally or
421
00:31:53.700 --> 00:31:59.099
physically. You're probably a tight a
learner type. GIFF, any tips on
422
00:31:59.259 --> 00:32:04.130
learning, something that you've learned along
the way that would help people learn more
423
00:32:04.250 --> 00:32:07.730
effectively or something like that? Yeah, I think one of the biggest challenges,
424
00:32:08.049 --> 00:32:13.049
and I that I'm sure you've experienced
this, one of the biggest challenges
425
00:32:13.210 --> 00:32:16.680
with with learning, especially virtual learning, now that we're doing all of this
426
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:23.000
so remotely, is the retention in
the application. So and I can't tell
427
00:32:23.000 --> 00:32:27.960
you that I've that I have any
any secret solutions to that. I think
428
00:32:28.039 --> 00:32:31.069
again, if we referred earlier to
all the challenges going on now with trying
429
00:32:31.109 --> 00:32:36.589
to do remote learning for school at
all different levels and so, I mean
430
00:32:36.630 --> 00:32:42.069
I consume a tremendous amount of information
and learning, but my ability to remember
431
00:32:42.109 --> 00:32:46.019
it is one challenge and then my
ability to apply it, whether it's to
432
00:32:46.140 --> 00:32:51.700
my personal life or to my career
or to my professional work, is a
433
00:32:51.740 --> 00:32:55.740
whole another challenge. So I think
that you know and I have done quite
434
00:32:55.740 --> 00:32:59.049
a bit of e learning in the
past. In fact, a years ago
435
00:32:59.049 --> 00:33:04.450
I did a start up where we
developed a lot of learning tools and evaluation
436
00:33:04.569 --> 00:33:08.769
tools to help young people prepare for
life and and some of the things that
437
00:33:08.890 --> 00:33:14.079
we were able to accomplish there to
kind of make a dent in this retention
438
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:22.799
and application challenge is is really making
things very personal is really trying to make
439
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:30.910
the tools adaptable to a particular individuals
life and context, learning style and and
440
00:33:30.150 --> 00:33:35.670
current level of knowledge and confidence.
So knowledge and confidence are two very important
441
00:33:35.670 --> 00:33:40.150
vectors on that and the more adaptable
and personalized you can make that learning to
442
00:33:40.309 --> 00:33:44.900
the individual, the more they're going
to pay attention to it and then the
443
00:33:45.019 --> 00:33:47.660
more relevant it's going to be for
them in their lives and therefore their ability
444
00:33:47.700 --> 00:33:52.299
to apply it in useful ways is
going to be more important. And again
445
00:33:52.380 --> 00:33:54.140
that's where some of this intelligence is
going to come in. So some of
446
00:33:54.180 --> 00:33:58.289
the early tools that we were able
to develop, and there's more of this
447
00:33:58.410 --> 00:34:00.769
going on now, like a lot
more of this where you can assess an
448
00:34:00.809 --> 00:34:06.609
individual ahead of time and actually adapt
the learning content, the learning delivery,
449
00:34:07.009 --> 00:34:13.199
the media types, the speed,
the depth, everything to that individual so
450
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:16.079
one size fits all doesn't fit in
most cases. We need to find ways
451
00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:21.559
again at all levels of learning.
Also, learning is to be experiential and
452
00:34:21.679 --> 00:34:23.989
I think that's one of the biggest
failings of what's happened over the last few
453
00:34:23.989 --> 00:34:29.670
months is, you know, that
classroom experience, interacting with other students,
454
00:34:30.269 --> 00:34:35.710
interacting with the instructor, all the
other enriching activities that happen in a school.
455
00:34:35.829 --> 00:34:37.780
They'll serve. For example, one
of my sons is in college and
456
00:34:37.900 --> 00:34:44.099
he's premed and he's at the lab
stage of his premed studies where he's got
457
00:34:44.179 --> 00:34:46.900
to lay hands on a lot of
things in a laboratory. Well, now
458
00:34:46.980 --> 00:34:52.090
he can't do that and you simply
can't simulate that by watching videos online.
459
00:34:52.130 --> 00:34:58.730
It's just not going to happen.
So so I think removing that experiential aspect
460
00:34:58.769 --> 00:35:04.210
and that interpersonal aspect of our education
in response to coronavirus has been a real
461
00:35:04.250 --> 00:35:06.929
risk and honestly I'm not sure how
we replace that. I think there's a
462
00:35:06.929 --> 00:35:08.760
lot of ways we're going to have
to continue to work on that to make
463
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:14.039
that work better, really, really
good it. I was recently able to
464
00:35:14.079 --> 00:35:19.440
go to the dentist and and the
dental hygienist apologize to me for having to
465
00:35:19.559 --> 00:35:22.510
pause for a moment because she had
to put a gown over her gown.
466
00:35:22.389 --> 00:35:27.630
She had to put a whole plastic
sheeting over her already. You know,
467
00:35:28.070 --> 00:35:30.909
mask the face, mask, all
these other things, and it's I just
468
00:35:30.030 --> 00:35:35.150
think about a med school student and
what's required there, and you're right,
469
00:35:35.230 --> 00:35:37.179
it is. A lot of it
is so tactile. Gosh, it's got
470
00:35:37.219 --> 00:35:39.139
to be so challenging. In to
your point a, you know, we're
471
00:35:39.179 --> 00:35:43.500
in this some kind of a holding
pattern until we figure it out at some
472
00:35:43.659 --> 00:35:46.460
level. What you also shared there
about learning reminded me of an episode that
473
00:35:46.619 --> 00:35:51.690
we did with Pianca Jane, who
is a data analytics expert, and she
474
00:35:51.730 --> 00:35:57.690
shared some ways to improve data literacy
in this idea of application asap. You
475
00:35:57.809 --> 00:36:00.409
know, as soon as the learning
happens that you can start applying it,
476
00:36:00.489 --> 00:36:05.599
and so we talked a bit about
data personas within an organization. Of course
477
00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:08.840
that's not truly individualized and personalized,
but it at least takes a step in
478
00:36:08.920 --> 00:36:13.800
that direction to make sure that how
deep does someone need to get to be
479
00:36:14.039 --> 00:36:20.190
appropriately data literate for their role,
and how can we make assignments and interactivity
480
00:36:20.710 --> 00:36:23.110
so that the learning is taken right
away and is appropriate again to the role
481
00:36:23.230 --> 00:36:27.510
or the depth of knowledge that the
person needs. If you're listening to this
482
00:36:27.590 --> 00:36:30.789
episode even enjoyed it so far with
that with Bob, as I have,
483
00:36:30.309 --> 00:36:35.699
you might also like episode fifty of
the customer experience podcast. That was with
484
00:36:35.820 --> 00:36:38.019
Bill Ammerman. He's the author of
a great book called the invisible brand.
485
00:36:38.340 --> 00:36:43.260
In fact, porchlight books called it
their marketing book of the year and we
486
00:36:43.420 --> 00:36:49.690
titled that Episode Episode Fifty, the
ethics of AI customer persuasion versus customer coercion,
487
00:36:49.730 --> 00:36:52.210
and you did a pass there toward
the end, Bob, about you
488
00:36:52.289 --> 00:36:57.250
know some of the tradeoffs that were
making and you know what's motivating the intelligence
489
00:36:57.289 --> 00:37:01.119
behind these systems and what's motivating the
way that the massive data collection we've been
490
00:37:01.159 --> 00:37:07.000
doing for years is actually applied in
in an experiential way and for whose benefits.
491
00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:10.239
So that was episode fifty with Bill
Ammerman and episode seventy four a little
492
00:37:10.239 --> 00:37:14.599
more recently with Steph called well of
narrative science. Are Really Cool Company in
493
00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:19.190
Chicago and we called that using tech
to scale the human touch, and we
494
00:37:19.309 --> 00:37:22.349
were at that intersection, a little
bit of human and machine. And you
495
00:37:22.429 --> 00:37:25.469
know, how do we still create
that personal and human experience for people in
496
00:37:25.750 --> 00:37:35.539
a scaled and partly automated and eventually
artificially intelligent interactivity? And so, Bob,
497
00:37:35.619 --> 00:37:37.539
this has been great. I've really
enjoyed our time together. And before
498
00:37:37.539 --> 00:37:42.139
I let you go, because relationships
are our number one core value at bombomb,
499
00:37:42.539 --> 00:37:45.929
I like to give you two opportunities. One to think or mention a
500
00:37:45.010 --> 00:37:47.730
person and two, to think or
mentioned a company or a brand. And
501
00:37:49.010 --> 00:37:52.130
the person is someone who's had a
positive impact on your life or your career,
502
00:37:52.570 --> 00:37:57.650
and the brand is one that you
appreciate or respect for the experience that
503
00:37:57.730 --> 00:38:00.159
they deliver for you as a customer. Well, you know, I say,
504
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:05.000
I have to go back to my
early days of my career and,
505
00:38:05.159 --> 00:38:07.280
as I mentioned, I work for
Hewlett Packard, back in the days when
506
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:12.119
bill and day were still alive and
I had the opportunity to meet them on
507
00:38:12.199 --> 00:38:16.710
various occasions, and you know they
were. They were the original Silicon Valley
508
00:38:17.630 --> 00:38:22.510
start the new business in your garage
duo, and there have been so many
509
00:38:22.750 --> 00:38:25.429
duos that have done that, and
they did it back in the late s
510
00:38:27.659 --> 00:38:30.460
and I think a lot of people
don't realize that they were the original,
511
00:38:30.739 --> 00:38:36.539
you know, technology company founders.
So their story and their values and how
512
00:38:36.619 --> 00:38:38.780
they there was a very different company
back then. You know, they invented
513
00:38:38.820 --> 00:38:43.690
the HP way and they inventagement management
by walking around and, you know,
514
00:38:43.809 --> 00:38:46.210
in the open door policy and there
was so much this just become embedded in
515
00:38:46.329 --> 00:38:50.929
our corporate culture these days. That
so they were. They were a true
516
00:38:50.929 --> 00:38:54.090
inspiration then. I you know,
appreciate I had the opportunity to work in
517
00:38:54.210 --> 00:38:59.920
that environment back back in the S
and s when when they were still around.
518
00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:02.480
So I mentioned them. Their long
past, but they they had a
519
00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:07.840
really impact on the on the industry
and the just corporate culture in general.
520
00:39:07.880 --> 00:39:13.110
The other one I would mention that
I really appreciate is Jeff Walker and product
521
00:39:13.150 --> 00:39:16.030
launch formula. So he invented you're
shaking your not in your head. So
522
00:39:16.070 --> 00:39:19.829
I assume you've heard of him.
Oh, yeah, he's. You know,
523
00:39:20.230 --> 00:39:28.219
he invented ways of creating experiences for
customers that really focus a lot on
524
00:39:28.380 --> 00:39:34.460
education, focus a lot on creating
an effective experience that brings the prospector of
525
00:39:34.539 --> 00:39:38.730
the customer into the value of whatever
it is you're offering and lead you down
526
00:39:39.010 --> 00:39:45.210
a process of engaging in a way
that is, I think, is so
527
00:39:45.409 --> 00:39:51.170
widely used anymore in marketing, and
especially an online in digital marketing, that
528
00:39:51.329 --> 00:39:53.000
I think we forget that. Jeff
and beent a a lot of that back.
529
00:39:53.159 --> 00:39:57.119
I've probably been twelve years ago now
that he did that it and a
530
00:39:57.199 --> 00:40:00.400
lot of companies are using aspects of
that today. So those are a couple
531
00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:05.599
of professionals, systems, individuals that
I think had a pretty, pretty big
532
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:10.110
impact on me. Awesome. Any
companies or brands come to mind? You
533
00:40:10.190 --> 00:40:15.989
know, I I follow apple very
closely. You know, I own virtually
534
00:40:16.030 --> 00:40:22.500
every apple device that has known to
exist and just the quality of the products
535
00:40:22.539 --> 00:40:29.420
that they create and and you talk
about experience, and so every aspect of
536
00:40:29.539 --> 00:40:34.380
what they do, whether it's in
the APPS or the websites that they create,
537
00:40:35.260 --> 00:40:37.610
if it's in the devices themselves,
whether it's an apple watch or an
538
00:40:37.610 --> 00:40:43.329
iphone or a Mac, I just
think I always turn to them when we're
539
00:40:43.329 --> 00:40:46.809
talking about experience. I always think
about them as being the gold standard as
540
00:40:46.929 --> 00:40:52.320
far as the quality of the experience
and how intuitive it is and how how
541
00:40:52.480 --> 00:40:54.519
truly delightful it is to interact with
the things that they make, so I'll
542
00:40:54.960 --> 00:40:59.079
definitely want to mention them because I'm
a big fan cool. I love all
543
00:40:59.159 --> 00:41:02.559
three of those choices. I when
I think about companies today that really think
544
00:41:02.599 --> 00:41:08.150
about the relationship between humans and their
devices, apple is obviously first or second
545
00:41:08.190 --> 00:41:12.670
to come to mind, with Amazon
being right there with them. Jeff Walker,
546
00:41:12.750 --> 00:41:15.670
we all read that at bombomb years
ago and we've generated at least a
547
00:41:15.710 --> 00:41:21.780
million dollars in revenue. And that
my favorite thing about that process that he
548
00:41:21.860 --> 00:41:25.659
advocates in the product launch formula.
I forget the exact name of the book
549
00:41:25.659 --> 00:41:30.179
but it's something like that, is
that it's actually called launch. Is the
550
00:41:30.219 --> 00:41:34.250
body there. You go right,
and so even for people who don't take
551
00:41:34.289 --> 00:41:37.650
you up on the offer and don't
pay you a dollar of revenue, they
552
00:41:37.730 --> 00:41:42.170
still got a massive amount of value. And so from a at bomb when
553
00:41:42.210 --> 00:41:45.610
we would do these teachings and things
that would lead to some opportunity for someone
554
00:41:45.650 --> 00:41:49.320
to spend time or money with us, even people who didn't opt to follow
555
00:41:49.360 --> 00:41:53.079
along to that last stage still got
a massive amount of value. Huge engagement
556
00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:57.840
with the software and with our team
is just really positive experience. So I
557
00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:01.429
love with that leaves customers with in
a huge proponent of managing by walking around.
558
00:42:01.469 --> 00:42:05.949
It's something I discovered on my own
and then I realized, you know,
559
00:42:06.150 --> 00:42:10.789
in doing some more traditional corporate culture
and business reading as I was coming
560
00:42:10.829 --> 00:42:13.710
up in my career, as like, Oh, this is actually a thing,
561
00:42:14.349 --> 00:42:19.500
you know, there's actually a useful
philosophy and practice. I'm so legitimate.
562
00:42:20.139 --> 00:42:22.900
Anyway, Bob, this has been
great. I've really enjoyed it.
563
00:42:22.019 --> 00:42:24.900
If someone wants to follow up on
this conversation, they want to connect with
564
00:42:24.980 --> 00:42:30.090
you or answer lab or, it's
the USERSCOM. If people enjoyed this,
565
00:42:30.170 --> 00:42:34.010
where would you send them to follow
up? So we have a lot of
566
00:42:34.130 --> 00:42:37.610
free materials to help people get started
in this world of user and customer experience
567
00:42:38.210 --> 00:42:44.050
and a lot of advanced materials,
learning courses, tools, platforms, etc.
568
00:42:45.119 --> 00:42:49.880
Also, I offer a free personalized
consult so if you if you go
569
00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:54.920
to it's the USERSCOM, bombomb,
then you can sign up for all those
570
00:42:54.960 --> 00:42:59.670
free materials and that extensive library and
you can also sign up for some time
571
00:42:59.710 --> 00:43:02.630
with me to guide you through this
and talk specifically about Your Business, your
572
00:43:02.670 --> 00:43:07.550
customers and how to make all of
this work for you. Awesome. Thank
573
00:43:07.590 --> 00:43:10.670
you so much, Bob. That's
it's the USERSCOM bomb bomb. If you
574
00:43:10.710 --> 00:43:15.099
want to see video clips from this
episode links to some of the things that
575
00:43:15.179 --> 00:43:20.340
we talked about, you can always
visit Bombombcom podcast. Thank you so much
576
00:43:20.340 --> 00:43:22.940
for listening, and Bob, thank
you so much for your time and insights.
577
00:43:22.260 --> 00:43:28.650
Ethan, all the best, take
care. Is Your buyer a BBB
578
00:43:28.769 --> 00:43:31.929
marketer? If so, you should
think about sponsoring this podcast. BB growth
579
00:43:31.969 --> 00:43:36.929
gets downloaded over a hundred and thirty
thousand times each month and our listeners are
580
00:43:37.050 --> 00:43:40.480
marketing decision makers. If it sounds
interesting, send logan and email logan at
581
00:43:40.519 --> 00:43:42.840
sweet fish mediacom.