Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:18.199 Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be tob growth. Welcome 2 00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:22.640 into be tob growth. Today I'm excited to be joined by JEN able. 3 00:00:22.839 --> 00:00:29.120 She is the CO founder of jellyfish. That's jellyfish with to Jay's and Jen, 4 00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:32.280 we are so glad to have you here with us on B tob growth 5 00:00:32.320 --> 00:00:34.759 today. Benjie, it's a pleasure to be here. Thanks so much for 6 00:00:34.799 --> 00:00:38.240 having me, for sure. So, Jen, what is the problem? 7 00:00:38.320 --> 00:00:43.159 Let's just start here. What's the problem that jellyfish helps solve? Yeah, 8 00:00:43.280 --> 00:00:49.039 we help start ups go from zero to one in the US market. So 9 00:00:49.079 --> 00:00:55.280 the specific problem is that's typically a founder's job, except most founders are technical 10 00:00:55.320 --> 00:01:03.640 and engineering sound trick and don't necessarily have the commercial skills to unlock that first 11 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:07.439 million. So we bed alongside them as their co pilot to help them reach 12 00:01:07.439 --> 00:01:14.959 that initial milestone. Nice, because today's episode is hyper focused on the zero 13 00:01:15.079 --> 00:01:18.920 to one motion and the companies you work with are in, you know, 14 00:01:18.959 --> 00:01:25.640 those sort of early stages. You're allowed about the need for sales before marketing, 15 00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:27.079 which, just so you know, jen, we talked to a lot 16 00:01:27.120 --> 00:01:30.840 of marketers here on be tob growth, so I love your unique advantage point. 17 00:01:30.920 --> 00:01:34.879 On that we're specifically, should founders be hyper focused? What's this whole 18 00:01:34.959 --> 00:01:38.719 idea of sales before market? Yeah, so it's interesting. A lot of 19 00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:44.280 people have different definitions for what sales and marketing its. So let's start with 20 00:01:44.359 --> 00:01:48.400 just the definition of sales. So sales, in our mind, or our 21 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:51.879 belief, is that's one to one. Right, you're in the room, 22 00:01:51.879 --> 00:01:57.159 you're able to get super deep, it's super personalized and you're able to unlock 23 00:01:57.239 --> 00:02:00.719 some real raw we call them earned insights. Right, it's that Oneton one. 24 00:02:01.280 --> 00:02:06.359 Marketing is more of that one too many, right, where you're reaching 25 00:02:06.400 --> 00:02:10.800 out to a group of people, and also it's tricky because you have to 26 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:15.479 be spot on in order for someone to say, Hmm, that inspired me, 27 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:21.639 I'm interested in learning more so, right, we believe, for founders, 28 00:02:21.680 --> 00:02:24.560 in order to get those earned insights, in order to differentiate themselves, 29 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:30.240 in order to build trust, the quickest and most successful way to do that 30 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:35.680 is through that one on one conversation. But, more importantly, those initial 31 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:40.199 customers that a founders going to generate as their early doctors, those are recruited 32 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:46.080 manually, right, those are the founder selling the vision, the value, 33 00:02:46.159 --> 00:02:50.280 the direct line into them, to convince these early doctors to take a risk 34 00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:54.039 on them. It's I'm I'm hard pressed to believe that a marketing effort is 35 00:02:54.080 --> 00:03:00.680 going to produce that level of trust that unlike a founder reaching out personalized to 36 00:03:00.759 --> 00:03:06.159 someone and pursuing it that way. So in the zero to one motion, 37 00:03:06.199 --> 00:03:09.879 you would say just hold off on marketing till a later time and let's really 38 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:14.879 dive into founders. I mean well, before you invest the time, the 39 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:16.680 money and the resources in marketing, you have to know who the hell you're 40 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:22.560 marketing to, what they can wear, resonates exactly where they are, and 41 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:24.439 the only way to get that inside in that data is through one on one 42 00:03:24.520 --> 00:03:29.759 conversations. MMM. So let's dive into that a little bit more. When 43 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:35.080 you're saying founder lad selling, kind of detail that picture for us a little 44 00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:37.719 bit. One hundred one is one of the things you highlight there. Ye, 45 00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:39.000 but what are some of the things that you would teach and would be 46 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:44.159 in that space? So one of the most important things about founder led selling 47 00:03:44.240 --> 00:03:50.319 is being super focused. Who is that initial core group of folks that are 48 00:03:50.360 --> 00:03:53.120 going to generate my first million from right? They're going to be the word 49 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:55.719 of mouth they're going to be my references, they're going to be my case 50 00:03:55.800 --> 00:03:59.680 studies. Right, I know that I'm going to be able to solve their 51 00:03:59.719 --> 00:04:03.199 problem better than anyone else and that fly wheel to go from one to ten 52 00:04:03.240 --> 00:04:09.439 now becomes even faster and less challenging. That that zero to one. I 53 00:04:09.439 --> 00:04:12.520 always say zero to one actually takes twice as long as going from one to 54 00:04:12.680 --> 00:04:14.639 ten. Believe it or not, I know that seems counter would I, 55 00:04:15.039 --> 00:04:17.720 but really what that means is the founder needs to scope out who is that 56 00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:20.839 initial ICP? Not It, who is the initial two to three ICPS? 57 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:26.319 Who is that singular focus that I am the founder, am going to understand 58 00:04:26.399 --> 00:04:30.959 their problem better than anyone else, build the trust right, make sure my 59 00:04:30.040 --> 00:04:35.160 product is built for that problem and even more contextualized to that so that I 60 00:04:35.199 --> 00:04:39.480 can then convert more people in that group. Right, once you get one 61 00:04:39.560 --> 00:04:42.240 or two in a very specifical group, it's much easier to get your thirty, 62 00:04:42.319 --> 00:04:45.639 fourth, to fifth or six right and build that momentum. But in 63 00:04:45.759 --> 00:04:48.879 order to get that initial momentum you really have to be focused, you have 64 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:54.920 to be specific and you have to understand, more importantly, that problem better 65 00:04:54.920 --> 00:04:58.199 than the market does. Because that's what's going to build the trust and inspire 66 00:04:58.279 --> 00:05:01.000 them to want to take a risk on you. So I could see one 67 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:06.759 of the issues being founders get oh shiny object syndrome. Right, it's like, 68 00:05:06.879 --> 00:05:10.160 well, it would be cool to appeal to that Group and Oh, 69 00:05:10.240 --> 00:05:13.839 I could see our product also being beneficial for them and over time. Right. 70 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:15.759 You could add ICPS, but you're saying singular focus. What are some 71 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:23.399 of those other common hiccups or hurdles that you see founders sort of run into 72 00:05:23.560 --> 00:05:28.720 again and again? Yeah, the first and foremost is delegate it way too 73 00:05:28.800 --> 00:05:31.519 soon. Right. So founder, a lot of founders are allergic to sales. 74 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:34.800 Right. They're like, oh, this is a smile and dial game, 75 00:05:35.439 --> 00:05:40.439 this is this requires a smooth talker. This doesn't appeal to me. 76 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:44.920 This doesn't excite me as much. The reason why most companies fail. There's 77 00:05:44.959 --> 00:05:47.480 that CB in sites article that I'm sure everyone is probably read that's listening to 78 00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:51.439 this, where it says the number one reason startup fails most of the number 79 00:05:51.480 --> 00:05:57.480 one reason startups to bail is due to the market. No market need. 80 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:01.560 That to me is completely avoidable. That means that you built the vacuum right 81 00:06:01.600 --> 00:06:04.759 and you went out and you try to be in search of a problem, 82 00:06:04.959 --> 00:06:11.040 right and founder led selling your you're almost building the product as you're going out 83 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:13.800 and talking to customers. Your product should not be fully baked when you go 84 00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:16.680 out into the market because you really need to understand the problems they are, 85 00:06:16.720 --> 00:06:21.480 care about the problems that they are urgent to solve for but, more importantly, 86 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:26.680 make sure you're not overbuilding right, like there's so much product that out 87 00:06:26.720 --> 00:06:30.399 there because people over build thinking all of these features and benefits are needed. 88 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:33.560 I will say, after doing this two hundred times over, eighty percent of 89 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:39.600 the value in the product that most founders build in Stage one. Eighty percent 90 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:43.000 of the value comes from twenty percent of the product. MMM Right. So, 91 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:45.920 if you think about it, this is what people people don't buy all 92 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:48.759 in one solutions. They buy something that's small, tangible. All right, 93 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:53.560 let's start here. We can always widen. So just understanding what that injection 94 00:06:53.639 --> 00:06:57.839 point is and again knowing that problem better than anyone else in the market, 95 00:06:57.879 --> 00:07:00.759 because that's what we'll get you that one. So I think when we were 96 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:05.680 talking before this episode, you had brought up the art and the science of 97 00:07:05.720 --> 00:07:11.920 this early stage game. Is early stage selling game. So when you're thinking 98 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:15.360 of the art of early sales, what's held in that bucket to you, 99 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:19.839 Gen what does that mean to you as far as the art of the early 100 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:25.680 stage sale? So the the the art piece to me is that that vision, 101 00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:30.040 that passion, that drive to just be in love with the problem. 102 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:32.360 I most mostly saunders, being to be in love with the problem that they're 103 00:07:32.480 --> 00:07:36.279 seeking to solve. Right and be Yep, well, you can't hire for 104 00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:42.279 that right like that is something that is that is a competitive advantage founders have 105 00:07:42.319 --> 00:07:45.240 when they go out selling. No one is going to have the vision in 106 00:07:45.319 --> 00:07:47.360 the passion that you do. You'll outweig every sales person if you're paired up 107 00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:51.680 against, you know, competitor sales teams. Right. The science piece to 108 00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:57.360 it is sales as a machine. It's black and white. It's yes or 109 00:07:57.399 --> 00:08:00.920 no. Right, it's only maybe when you're not sure how to qualify properly. 110 00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:05.720 Okay, you're not pushing the lead enough. So after every meeting, 111 00:08:05.959 --> 00:08:09.639 okay, you should know. Is this person a high fit, yes or 112 00:08:09.680 --> 00:08:13.800 no? Are they put a potential early adopter, yes or no? Had 113 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:16.639 they tried to historically solve for this in the past? Yes, or no. 114 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:18.240 Do they have a budget? Yes or no? Right, it's inputs 115 00:08:18.240 --> 00:08:24.439 and outputs, and the science piece behind it is the evidence collection, that 116 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:28.680 piece of okay, once I can identify repeatable themes from that evidence, I 117 00:08:28.720 --> 00:08:31.639 now know where to double down. Right. So it's that falling in love 118 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:37.039 with that process piece, right, and that art piece is much more of 119 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:39.399 you know, once you have your process and now you lay or on top 120 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.000 of it the vision and the passion, I mean you're unstoppable at that point. 121 00:08:43.159 --> 00:08:46.960 MMM. And that's why I believe under lets selling is the number one 122 00:08:46.960 --> 00:08:50.399 competitive advantage going through zero to one, and a lot of people give that 123 00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:54.279 up. They an't go out and hire someone right, and you're already decreasing 124 00:08:54.320 --> 00:08:58.879 your odds of success by doing that. HMM. Yeah, I imagine specifically 125 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:03.759 on the art side for a second, because the founder knows the problem the 126 00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:11.000 the best. They also clearly are the closest to the entire creation of the 127 00:09:11.039 --> 00:09:13.840 solution and they're going to have the story, the narrative. We talked about 128 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:18.639 that a lot from a marketing standpoint, but the founder sort of also has 129 00:09:18.720 --> 00:09:20.879 that. So they can become in the zero one motion. They are so 130 00:09:20.960 --> 00:09:26.320 critically important and then they can easily become the bottleneck as it grows because they 131 00:09:26.360 --> 00:09:28.639 have to figure out a way to hand it off. It's funny that you 132 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:33.039 said some hand it off to early Oh yeah, because that's actually not what 133 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:37.799 I typically hear. I hear they hold on too long. So I love 134 00:09:37.879 --> 00:09:41.159 that insight there. I would love for you to to maybe go into a 135 00:09:41.159 --> 00:09:46.960 little bit more on the science side. You said early you're tracking because you 136 00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:52.080 can. You're tracking early adopters, budget, evidence collection, anything else there 137 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:56.159 that's sort of in that bucket? Yeah, I mean even just doing outbound 138 00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:03.159 cold emailing. Okay, okay, cold emailing from a founder, you'll get 139 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:07.879 real time insights into what's working in not and where there's leakage versus at marketing 140 00:10:07.960 --> 00:10:11.360 right, like you'll know at a granular level. You know by that individual 141 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:15.759 did they open your note, yes or no? Kay, did they respond? 142 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:20.240 Right? That level of depth and those metrics are really, really hard 143 00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:22.720 to, you know, pick up when you're doing these broad based, you 144 00:10:22.759 --> 00:10:28.120 know, marketing campaigns right and, most importantly, if they respond yes or 145 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:31.799 no, you have a chance to go deeper into the why and why I 146 00:10:31.799 --> 00:10:35.559 say cold emailing is so critical. It's that also that personalized piece. Right, 147 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:39.639 you don't have brand equity when you're going through zero to one. Right, 148 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:43.480 you typically probably don't have case studies, you don't have references. Right, 149 00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:46.080 you probably have a very small marketing budget. So, in order to 150 00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:50.159 increase your odds, right, if the founder of selling a note to someone 151 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:54.679 that they know is high fit because they've defined their ICP very clearly, these 152 00:10:54.720 --> 00:10:58.840 are all the things that we are doing to increase our odds. Right. 153 00:10:58.879 --> 00:11:01.159 We all know the odds of early stage startups, you know, get into 154 00:11:01.200 --> 00:11:05.399 the next round is it gets trimmed and trimmed and trimmed. So how do 155 00:11:05.440 --> 00:11:07.759 you make sure you put this the the odds of success in your favor? 156 00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:11.320 And these are all of the things that we look for and have seen work 157 00:11:11.360 --> 00:11:16.120 successfully. These scale tactics or these shortcuts will quickly lead to failure. There 158 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:22.080 is no shortcut to the stuff. It's hard manual work recruiting and and building 159 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:26.360 that trust and selling that vision. That, I think is very, very 160 00:11:26.360 --> 00:11:30.360 hard to do when you're doing it to many versus doing it one on one. 161 00:11:31.279 --> 00:11:33.759 Hey, everyone, if you've been listening to be to be growth for 162 00:11:33.840 --> 00:11:37.799 a while, you know that we are big proponents of putting out original, 163 00:11:39.200 --> 00:11:43.559 organic content on Linkedin. But one thing that's always been a struggle for a 164 00:11:43.600 --> 00:11:48.399 team like ours is easily tracking the reach of that linkedin content. That's why 165 00:11:48.399 --> 00:11:52.759 we're really excited about shield analytics. Since our team started using shield, we've 166 00:11:52.799 --> 00:11:58.320 been able to easily track the reach and performance of our linkedin content without having 167 00:11:58.320 --> 00:12:03.600 to manually log it ourselves. 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The number to be growth all 176 00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:50.120 one word for a twenty five percent discount. All right, let's get back 177 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:56.879 into the show. These scale tactics or the shortcuts will quickly lead to failure. 178 00:12:56.879 --> 00:13:00.960 There is no shortcut to the stuff. It's hard, manual work recruiting 179 00:13:01.000 --> 00:13:05.240 and and building that trust and selling that vision. That, I think, 180 00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:09.600 is very, very hard to do when you're doing it to many versus doing 181 00:13:09.639 --> 00:13:13.200 it one on one. Let's talk about early adopters for a second. What 182 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:18.279 are some qualifiers that can help us identify or start spotting those early adopters? 183 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:22.399 There's three that I typically look at that are usually the leading indicator that an 184 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:26.159 early adopter. First and foremost, do they give you a head not on 185 00:13:26.159 --> 00:13:28.360 the problem? Do they agree a problem exists? Yes, or now? 186 00:13:28.480 --> 00:13:33.200 Okay, so the stage gate one, stage stay two. Can they articulate 187 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:37.600 why they haven't been able to solve this in the past successfully? Write? 188 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:43.360 What I typically say is they must have tried to solve for it before if 189 00:13:43.399 --> 00:13:46.200 it's that urgent or if it's that intense. Right, so is that? 190 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:50.080 If they having that's usually like, well, why not? Is it because 191 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:54.759 it's not priority one through five? So the historics piece to me is is 192 00:13:54.759 --> 00:14:00.240 predicated of, you know, future intent and then the third piece is what's 193 00:14:00.279 --> 00:14:03.320 at risk if they don't solve for today? Right, can they articulate that. 194 00:14:03.919 --> 00:14:07.759 Well, if we don't solve it for today, here's how that compounds 195 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:11.279 down the line or here's what's at risk, and it's those implications that help 196 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:16.919 me understand how real and early adopter is versus what could lead to meeting exhaustion, 197 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:20.559 because at the end of the day, an early adopter has a very 198 00:14:20.600 --> 00:14:24.639 different type of look, kind of what we just talked about, a specifically 199 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.840 on the historics piece. Then any other lead and making sure that you you 200 00:14:28.919 --> 00:14:31.000 understand that on call one, don't waste your time. You have limited time 201 00:14:31.000 --> 00:14:33.919 and resources as a founder. Make sure you're spending it on the right people, 202 00:14:35.639 --> 00:14:37.440 and you mentioned cold email as one of the ways to do that, 203 00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:43.279 because obviously expanding your network to reaching outside of just those people. What's the 204 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:46.919 strategy there? Is you're thinking of getting these meetings? Yeah, I would 205 00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.879 love to know, like, is it just I mean you, you are 206 00:14:50.919 --> 00:14:54.039 a big proponent of cold email, which I think is is interesting and smart, 207 00:14:54.039 --> 00:14:58.120 for sure, definitely coming from the founder to you probably have some good 208 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.440 luck there. But yeah, what are some other ways? So I don't 209 00:15:01.480 --> 00:15:05.320 know other way to so, first and foremost, what I love about email 210 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:07.759 is they can open it on their time. You don't have to time it 211 00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:09.559 perfectly, just unlike cold calling. It like if you hit them at the 212 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.519 wrong time, it could be very ugly. So, yeah, hitting them 213 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:16.519 at the time when they're when they're ready to read it right too, is 214 00:15:16.559 --> 00:15:20.039 tracking it. Do they open it? Do they forward it? Where do 215 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:22.879 they open it? And understanding more the follow up that you can do from 216 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:28.159 there. Do they even respond? Three is, I don't know any other 217 00:15:28.519 --> 00:15:31.799 a tool that allows you to it as personalized to that single person where no 218 00:15:31.799 --> 00:15:37.039 one else in the world could receive this exact message but this individual. Right, 219 00:15:37.159 --> 00:15:39.840 there's no other way to show effort like that. Right in that effort, 220 00:15:39.879 --> 00:15:43.279 it warms people's hearts in a weird way, right, like a personalized 221 00:15:43.320 --> 00:15:46.679 note. Even if it's a not fit, I'll still respond and say, 222 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:48.639 Hey, this is not the right fit, but thank you for, you 223 00:15:48.679 --> 00:15:50.679 know, for spending the time you did on that note. And the last 224 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:56.159 piece is cold emails generally are so bad. It's actually not that. It's 225 00:15:56.200 --> 00:16:00.200 actually not that hard to stand out right. So I think it's one of 226 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.919 the highest row eyes that a BEDB company can do is the cold email. 227 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.080 And coming from the founder, I mean I don't know anything that's better than 228 00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:11.559 that. So you would say to make your email stand out, it's mostly 229 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:15.279 about the personalization piece. That's how you raise the bar. Is there anything 230 00:16:15.279 --> 00:16:19.639 else that you think raises the bar of that cold email outside of personalization? 231 00:16:19.759 --> 00:16:25.960 Ye, informal, super short and sweet. You know, don't use jargon. 232 00:16:26.639 --> 00:16:29.840 What is the problem? You solved in one sentence. So Hyper Personal 233 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:33.840 Eyes Hook Right, get them to open in bea think this is interesting problem, 234 00:16:33.879 --> 00:16:37.799 statement, call the action. That's it. Super Short, sweet, 235 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:41.639 again from the founder. People are willing to respond to a founder. People 236 00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:45.159 are excited to learn. Our world is changing so fast. Everyone is always 237 00:16:45.200 --> 00:16:48.120 learning, and when you get receive a note from a founder and the problem 238 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.679 is somewhat intense, they will give you their time. Right. People are 239 00:16:52.720 --> 00:16:55.960 motivated to give you their time if their feeling it, and if they're not 240 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:57.600 feeling it will. You'll see that from the data of the cold outbound as 241 00:16:57.639 --> 00:17:03.480 well. So I actually wrote an article called the old the Ode to the 242 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:07.680 cold email, the founder led cold email, and it just talks about the 243 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:11.920 importance of doing this and the ability to track it measure. Again, going 244 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:15.680 back to that science piece and knowing where to iterate right. If everyone's opening 245 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:18.519 your email but no one's responding either, two things are at risk. Either 246 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:22.519 it's not personalized enough so they think it's spam, or the problem statements not 247 00:17:22.519 --> 00:17:26.240 resoning. Well, that's really good to know. As quickly as possible, 248 00:17:26.400 --> 00:17:30.920 call the action. Typically what setting up a meeting? What like? What 249 00:17:30.279 --> 00:17:33.359 do you see as the most I would love to understand how this problem is 250 00:17:33.359 --> 00:17:37.960 manifesting, you know in your role. Would love to grab some time if 251 00:17:37.960 --> 00:17:40.680 you're open to it. Again, happy to share what we've learned as well 252 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:45.400 about it. Okay, I like that. I wonder, like overall everything 253 00:17:45.480 --> 00:17:48.599 we've talked about so far, within founder led selling, how are you judging, 254 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.880 let's go into like effectiveness, and will go into metrics here for a 255 00:17:52.920 --> 00:17:57.599 second as well. How are you judging the effectiveness of founder led selling? 256 00:17:57.799 --> 00:18:03.240 So the effect then, as a founder led selling really comes down to are 257 00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:06.759 you targeting? First of all, are you targeting someone that agrees a problem 258 00:18:06.759 --> 00:18:11.880 exists? So a head not effectiveness point. Correctly, Yep, right to 259 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:17.519 is are they seeking to solve it today, and that is typically hidden somewhere 260 00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:21.640 in the historical piece, if they've tried to solve it unsuccessfully in the past. 261 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:23.920 They're probably still trying to solve it today. Okay, so that you 262 00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:30.039 can start to begin to understand intent. And the third piece is what is 263 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:36.640 the intensity or the frequency of that problem, which all sits under urgency right. 264 00:18:36.720 --> 00:18:38.480 So how intense is it? How much are they bleeding in money or 265 00:18:38.519 --> 00:18:42.920 bleeding in time, or how frequent is this problem coming up? And it's 266 00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:47.079 those three things where, if you get ahead, not right, that the 267 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:49.960 problem exists, their historics of how they try to solve for it and they 268 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:55.799 can quantify the intensity or the frequency around it. That's a qualified lead. 269 00:18:55.839 --> 00:19:00.559 And if you're having ten calls and only one is turning into a sales qualified 270 00:19:00.680 --> 00:19:03.759 lead, why is that right? And being able to understand that, if 271 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:06.359 half are you know you're on the right track. If more than half, 272 00:19:06.359 --> 00:19:10.119 our double down as quickly as possible. Right. So you can build mental 273 00:19:10.160 --> 00:19:14.519 models about the market, and that's the beauty of again, being so specific 274 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:18.519 and so constrained to an ICP. You will quickly see themes bubble up as 275 00:19:18.599 --> 00:19:22.119 quickly as possible and you will know immediately if you're on track or not. 276 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:27.119 I always like to say rejection is actually redirection. When you get rejected. 277 00:19:27.480 --> 00:19:33.079 Great. Why Now? How does that lead you to the pulse right? 278 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:37.200 So again that whole science piece of the it's always black and white. It's 279 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:41.000 not this gray area that a lot of people claim it to be. It's 280 00:19:41.000 --> 00:19:44.720 either they have a problem and they want to solve it today or they don't. 281 00:19:44.839 --> 00:19:47.400 And now if they don't, you now have to decide as it makes 282 00:19:47.400 --> 00:19:49.720 sense to invest in them, to move them up the ladder to get to 283 00:19:49.759 --> 00:19:52.759 that point of intent, or we look in, you know, too far 284 00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:56.920 out, and then that's what marketing comes in. When those folks are below 285 00:19:56.960 --> 00:20:00.960 that, you can have marketing start to warm them up and start to advance 286 00:20:00.000 --> 00:20:04.279 them up the ladder. So when you say you quickly see themes and readjust, 287 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:08.039 I wonder, like, what is that actually look like in frequency? 288 00:20:08.680 --> 00:20:15.000 Is there like any cadence that is typical that you advised to founders to be 289 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:18.039 to be readjusting? Yeah, so you know, when you're doing founder led 290 00:20:18.160 --> 00:20:22.759 selling, you need to know as quickly as possible if you're on the right 291 00:20:22.799 --> 00:20:25.799 track right, because you know, I will say every start up we've ever 292 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:29.599 supporting, we've supported over two hundred. I have yet to work with one 293 00:20:29.599 --> 00:20:32.519 where they're on the right track from day one. But we've only a love 294 00:20:32.680 --> 00:20:37.119 that. Yeah, it's pretty sure. And what that comes down to is 295 00:20:37.559 --> 00:20:41.839 after three or four conversations with the same type of person, right same role, 296 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:48.119 same rough team structure, the same maturity, if you're the same thing 297 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:51.160 three or four times, that is enough of a leading indicator to say, 298 00:20:51.240 --> 00:20:53.880 okay, where do we turn now? Right, because at the end of 299 00:20:53.880 --> 00:20:57.759 the day it's all about speed, but speed without precision is deadly. So 300 00:20:57.960 --> 00:21:03.279 use this guidance as the precision to guide you to the right area and again, 301 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:06.079 move there as quickly as possible. No, I think there's a lot 302 00:21:06.079 --> 00:21:10.759 of companies out there are a lot of ways to accelerate and speed up the 303 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:15.160 process to product market fit and speed in itself is actually quite dangerous. You 304 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:19.880 do need to make sure you're going in the right direction. I wonder anything 305 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:25.400 you is say sort of in the handoff process, when it actually does start 306 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:32.039 to happen from the founder to a team of salespeople, what in that should 307 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:33.759 be handed like? How does it get handed off? Well, I guess 308 00:21:33.759 --> 00:21:37.240 would be my question. Gin. So when you know it's time to hand 309 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:41.920 to go from founder led selling to now founder led managing, right, which 310 00:21:41.000 --> 00:21:44.680 is the next stage, right, which is the founder down manages a team 311 00:21:44.720 --> 00:21:45.559 of three or four, and then you can bring it ahead of sales and 312 00:21:45.599 --> 00:21:48.960 then vp of sales and all that. So when you go from founder led 313 00:21:49.039 --> 00:21:52.599 selling to founder led managing, these are the these are the kind of the 314 00:21:52.599 --> 00:21:56.640 outcomes to get there. Can you, if you're selling enterprise, can you, 315 00:21:56.720 --> 00:22:00.640 the founder, close the first ten deals? Okay, if you're selling 316 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:04.480 mid market, can you close the first, you know, twenty? If 317 00:22:04.519 --> 00:22:07.920 you're going SMB, can you close the first fifty? Right, it's kind 318 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:11.880 of just skills down there, and I roughly say the first million, whatever 319 00:22:11.920 --> 00:22:15.359 that looks like. Again, mental model. So that's stage gate. One 320 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:18.519 Stage A to is do you have the skeleton process for how you did it? 321 00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:23.519 If you cannot show a nonfounder how to do this and how to hold 322 00:22:23.559 --> 00:22:29.519 them accountable, they will fail. Right, Ninety five percent of first hail 323 00:22:29.599 --> 00:22:33.039 sires fail, and they fail because they've never been given the process or because 324 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:37.880 it was handed over too soon and there's no customers yet closed. So again, 325 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:41.359 in order for these non founders to sell successfully they need a case study. 326 00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:44.839 So you have to get a few deals over the line and show the 327 00:22:44.839 --> 00:22:48.319 market that you're able to do this right, because now that you're not, 328 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:51.759 now that you're handing a knock this off to your first sales person, they 329 00:22:51.799 --> 00:22:56.480 are they have the odd stacked against them, right because their salesperson, and 330 00:22:56.519 --> 00:22:57.599 who's going to want to talk to a sales person? Well, when they're 331 00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:02.559 armed with the right tools, they will be successful, and some of those 332 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:07.400 are case studies, references, logos and then the process for how the founder 333 00:23:07.440 --> 00:23:10.440 did it. And you, as the founder, need to be able to 334 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:15.079 say to x, first AE, I need you to write, reach out 335 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:18.440 to you know, fifteen people a day or fifty people a day. Here's 336 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:22.319 exactly what they look like. Here's the problem they care about. Now go 337 00:23:22.319 --> 00:23:26.400 out and scale. What we know is validated. So assume that in an 338 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:32.640 salesperson is going to be good at following a process. They are a allergic 339 00:23:32.839 --> 00:23:34.480 to building a process. So do not rely on them to build out the 340 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:37.599 sales process. This has to be on the founder. I'll recap what you 341 00:23:37.640 --> 00:23:41.400 just said because I like that. So founder. Obviously the number is going 342 00:23:41.400 --> 00:23:47.400 to change depending enterprise, whatever, but founder, close are first mill skeleton 343 00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:51.720 of how it's done. You got to have the processes in place. I 344 00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:55.039 look, I think it's so true. The tools, which is the case 345 00:23:55.119 --> 00:23:57.759 studies, something that's in their back pocket, to actually execute and show, 346 00:23:59.000 --> 00:24:04.039 okay, we prove of concept and then execute on actually handing it off in 347 00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:10.319 a way that they don't have to create the process right. So I think 348 00:24:10.359 --> 00:24:12.960 that that's really key. I wonder, Jen, could you give us any 349 00:24:12.960 --> 00:24:17.359 examples? You've done this, you said, two hundred plus times, but 350 00:24:17.440 --> 00:24:21.640 anything that comes to mind in just practical examples force as we start to wrap 351 00:24:21.720 --> 00:24:25.759 up today. Yeah, I mean the founder, even after, even after 352 00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:27.359 your first million, you're going to still potentially need to be involved in the 353 00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:32.359 deals at some level, right, especially sure become more and more qualified. 354 00:24:32.519 --> 00:24:38.039 Okay, so what you now need to determine is, again the validation piece 355 00:24:38.119 --> 00:24:41.000 is critical, because they are going to be again the science. They're going 356 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:45.680 to be operating against the things that are validated, all of the known unknowns. 357 00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.359 That's still your job to figure out, right. And the I call 358 00:24:48.400 --> 00:24:52.640 it founder lad managing, because that feedback loops still needs to be super tight. 359 00:24:52.839 --> 00:24:56.319 Right now that you've got the momentum kicking, how do you make sure 360 00:24:56.400 --> 00:25:00.759 that it's repeatable and then eventually become skillable and the further you remove yourself from 361 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:06.680 it, the further again, you're increasing the odds of failure. So as 362 00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:11.000 the founder, still be deeply involved, still know how to hold these people 363 00:25:11.000 --> 00:25:14.640 accountable. Okay, Web and get to that granular level. You should know 364 00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:15.920 how many leads they need to reach out to on a daily basis, based 365 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:18.480 off of the conversion you were able to do, just padded a little bit, 366 00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:22.240 knowing that they don't have the founder title. All right, and, 367 00:25:22.359 --> 00:25:25.839 most importantly, make sure they know who they are reaching now to. All 368 00:25:25.880 --> 00:25:27.680 Right, we've supported I don't know how many founders who have built the sales 369 00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:30.200 team and I asked the founders, I'm like, all right, well, 370 00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:33.160 who is your ideal customer? And they go, they go all the way 371 00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:37.480 out here into the Super Wide Net and I asked them. I'm like, 372 00:25:37.559 --> 00:25:41.200 why is this so wide? Right, you're now targeting three different ICPs based 373 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:42.920 off of everything you said to me, and they're like, well, we're 374 00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:47.960 trying to hedge to make sure we at least find something, and I say 375 00:25:47.960 --> 00:25:51.839 this isn't a hedge game. This is a process of elimination. Start with 376 00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:53.400 one, you either check it off or you cross it off and you move 377 00:25:53.400 --> 00:25:56.759 on to the next. There is no hedge in here. So if you 378 00:25:56.759 --> 00:26:00.440 think you're going to build a sales team based off of hedges, be warned. 379 00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:03.559 That will lead to failure very quickly. So fun conversation. I love 380 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:07.759 the switch up. It's great for marketers to hear this conversation because it just 381 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:11.640 changes the YEP, the normal. What we get out of these these episodes. 382 00:26:12.279 --> 00:26:15.400 As we start to close, any final thoughts on founder led sales, 383 00:26:15.480 --> 00:26:18.720 Jen, anything you want to leave us with as we as we wrap up? 384 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:23.200 It's manual, it's hard and and it takes twice as long as going 385 00:26:23.240 --> 00:26:27.279 from one to ten. If you can get through this milestone as the founder 386 00:26:27.279 --> 00:26:32.200 and show the proof of how it's done, you will be unstoppable. Just 387 00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:34.920 stick with it and it does. It does feel like it's taking too long, 388 00:26:36.000 --> 00:26:38.359 but again, building that momentum and building that trust in market is the 389 00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:44.920 hardest part. It's very easy to expand once you have your your core group 390 00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:48.279 closed and being delivered in a successful way. So just stick with that. 391 00:26:48.920 --> 00:26:51.799 Jen, thank you for taking time and being with us on B tob growth. 392 00:26:51.839 --> 00:26:53.920 For people that want to connect with you and jellyfish further, what's the 393 00:26:53.920 --> 00:26:57.559 best way for people to do that twitter. I am very responsive on twitter, 394 00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:00.279 DM more so than mail. Actually, believe it or not, even 395 00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:04.480 though I said email works for me, it's twitter DM. So Jen Double 396 00:27:04.599 --> 00:27:11.839 J underscore able abel fantastic. Well, we're always having conversations just like this 397 00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:15.960 here on Bob Growth, so if you have yet to subscribe to the podcast, 398 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:19.000 be sure you do that so you never miss an episode and you can 399 00:27:19.079 --> 00:27:23.319 connect with me on Linkedin. I am not active on twitter, so connect 400 00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:26.599 with me on Linkedin. Just Search Benjie Block over there. We're talking marketing, 401 00:27:26.599 --> 00:27:32.200 business in life and keep doing work that matters. Gen, thank you 402 00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:47.880 for being on the show today. We're always excited to have conversations with leaders 403 00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:51.440 on the front lines of marketing. If there's a marketing director or a chief 404 00:27:51.480 --> 00:27:55.279 marketing officer that you think we need to have on the show, reach out 405 00:27:55.279 --> 00:27:59.960 email me, ben dot block at Sweet Fish Mediacom. I look forward to 406 00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:00.680 hearing from you.
