#H2H 7: Which of the 6 Innovation Archetypes Are You? w/ Carla Johnson

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.719 Wouldn't it be nice to have several thought leaders in your industry know and Love 2 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:10.189 Your brand? Start a podcast, invite your industries thought leaders to be guests 3 00:00:10.269 --> 00:00:15.390 on your show and start reaping the benefits of having a network full of industry 4 00:00:15.390 --> 00:00:23.820 influencers? Learn more at Sweet Phish Mediacom you're listening to be tob growth, 5 00:00:24.260 --> 00:00:28.940 a daily podcast for B TOB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, 6 00:00:29.140 --> 00:00:32.780 like Gary Vannerd truck and Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard from 7 00:00:32.859 --> 00:00:36.929 the majority of our guests. That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't with 8 00:00:37.170 --> 00:00:41.810 professional speakers and authors. Most of our guests are in the trenches leading sales 9 00:00:41.850 --> 00:00:46.729 and marketing teams. They're implementing strategy, they're experimenting with Packics, they're building 10 00:00:46.770 --> 00:00:50.880 the fastest growing BBB companies in the world. My name is James Carberry. 11 00:00:50.920 --> 00:00:54.479 I'm the founder of sweet fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands, 12 00:00:54.600 --> 00:00:57.759 and I'm also one of the CO hosts of the show. When we're not 13 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:00.759 interviewing sales and marketing leaders, you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of our 14 00:01:00.799 --> 00:01:04.750 own business. Will share the ups and downs of our journey as we attempt 15 00:01:04.750 --> 00:01:10.750 to take over the world. Just getting well? Maybe let's get into the 16 00:01:10.829 --> 00:01:21.500 show. Welcome to another segment of the BTB growth podcast, the human to 17 00:01:21.659 --> 00:01:26.180 human, Hashtag H to AH segment. I am Carlos Hidel go, CEO 18 00:01:26.500 --> 00:01:32.969 of VISM CX and also author of the newly published book the on American Dream. 19 00:01:33.250 --> 00:01:37.769 I am beyond excited today to have as my guest my good friend, 20 00:01:38.090 --> 00:01:44.769 Colleague, Co Conspirator, sounding board and a sanity check in many regards, 21 00:01:44.890 --> 00:01:51.359 Carla Johnson. Carla has done some incredible work in the whole area of innovation, 22 00:01:51.480 --> 00:01:55.319 and every time I talk with Carla I come away better for it. 23 00:01:55.480 --> 00:01:59.599 I learned something. So, Carla, welcome to the show and give us 24 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:02.069 a little background about who you are and what are you doing with your whole 25 00:02:02.069 --> 00:02:07.670 work around rethink innovation. Thank you, Carlos, and it's I found her 26 00:02:07.750 --> 00:02:13.430 introduction interesting because I say the exact same things about you, especially the sounding 27 00:02:13.509 --> 00:02:15.020 board. Is always good to know who those people are in your life. 28 00:02:15.539 --> 00:02:21.780 Absolutely yeah, you know, like you, I've spent my career in be 29 00:02:21.979 --> 00:02:24.979 to be marketing, and at the root of everything that I've done is that 30 00:02:25.180 --> 00:02:29.580 I teach people how to rethink the work that they do in the impact that 31 00:02:29.740 --> 00:02:32.889 they can have, and that's really led to the work that I've done in 32 00:02:32.969 --> 00:02:38.490 innovation because as I look at at marketers and we know how much this crazy 33 00:02:38.530 --> 00:02:43.689 world of marketing has changed, you know, even the last couple of years, 34 00:02:43.770 --> 00:02:46.919 the pace always you know, it's just accelerating as we go. It's 35 00:02:47.080 --> 00:02:52.520 not enough to do better work. We have to continually look at what's the 36 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:54.599 work that I need to do, that's different work, and be willing to 37 00:02:54.719 --> 00:03:00.349 let go of things. And that's really how marketers can start to rethink the 38 00:03:00.430 --> 00:03:05.270 work that they do and continually ask is this work that I need to do 39 00:03:05.990 --> 00:03:08.750 and is this the impact, the greatest impact that I know that I can 40 00:03:08.830 --> 00:03:15.300 have? So I would say, given the human condition, that change can 41 00:03:15.379 --> 00:03:20.300 be scary, that differences and you and I have been in this game long 42 00:03:20.379 --> 00:03:23.259 enough to know you here that well. We've always done it that way. 43 00:03:23.300 --> 00:03:29.770 Talk a little about how you get people just to that place to consider that 44 00:03:29.930 --> 00:03:34.250 scary proposition of doing things differently and changing. You know, I have this 45 00:03:34.370 --> 00:03:38.770 exercise that I have people go through, whether it's in my workshops or is 46 00:03:38.810 --> 00:03:45.840 I kip golf consulting or in my keynotes and it's something called brand attachment disorder 47 00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:49.199 and I have them, I have them stand up and admit that this is 48 00:03:49.240 --> 00:03:52.960 a disorder that they have and I make light of it, but it really 49 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:58.870 hits home with people because brand attachment disorder is this tendency that we have to 50 00:03:59.069 --> 00:04:03.270 dismiss great ideas, great experiences, great whatever, fill in the blank that 51 00:04:03.349 --> 00:04:08.389 we see that other brands are doing and say that we could never do it 52 00:04:08.870 --> 00:04:13.139 in our company because we're be to be we sell boring products, we don't 53 00:04:13.139 --> 00:04:15.180 have a kind of budget, we don't have that kind of team, or 54 00:04:15.300 --> 00:04:17.100 team is too big or team is too small. You know that. There's 55 00:04:17.180 --> 00:04:23.579 an endlest endless list of excuses about why people can't change. But really what 56 00:04:23.699 --> 00:04:30.170 it comes down to is people are intimidated by the greatness of work that other 57 00:04:30.329 --> 00:04:34.649 brands or other people do and it makes them feel uncomfortable and that's what makes 58 00:04:34.689 --> 00:04:39.240 them start to put up the barriers and that's why the excuses start to roll 59 00:04:39.279 --> 00:04:43.120 out. So I teach them how to do something, and this is foundational 60 00:04:43.319 --> 00:04:46.920 for innovation in any part of a company, is that I teach them how 61 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:50.720 to do something called a brand transplant, and that's where we look at okay, 62 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:55.389 what is this great idea that we see and let's start to break it 63 00:04:55.550 --> 00:05:00.470 down and instead of a company trying to copy and paste something that was wickedly 64 00:05:00.509 --> 00:05:05.790 successful so for somebody else and then failing miserable and then saying see, innovation 65 00:05:05.870 --> 00:05:09.899 doesn't really work or it's not going to work here, and the excuses go 66 00:05:10.139 --> 00:05:15.060 on and on, we look at what's the essence behind that massively successful thing. 67 00:05:15.259 --> 00:05:18.819 So if you take, for example, the als ice bucket challenge, 68 00:05:18.819 --> 00:05:21.329 yeah, because I know you and I. You and I both did that 69 00:05:21.970 --> 00:05:27.370 and it's not that be tobe companies should take the idea of pouring a bucket 70 00:05:27.370 --> 00:05:30.050 of ice cold water over their head and trying to get other people to do 71 00:05:30.129 --> 00:05:34.250 it too. But the essence behind what made that so successful was how it 72 00:05:34.370 --> 00:05:39.240 built community. Now that's how you can take a brand transplant and you can 73 00:05:39.240 --> 00:05:41.519 say, okay, how can we, as a be to be brand, 74 00:05:41.959 --> 00:05:46.839 start to build community? And they can see then other examples of companies of 75 00:05:46.879 --> 00:05:50.350 all size, of all industries, of all you know, be to be 76 00:05:50.550 --> 00:05:55.589 be to seat that have been successful with that, and then that starts the 77 00:05:55.709 --> 00:06:00.029 ball in motion where people start to see possibility for if they can do it, 78 00:06:00.389 --> 00:06:02.829 then we can too. Now let's just figure out the way that this 79 00:06:03.069 --> 00:06:09.100 will work in our culture, in our company size and our industry, and 80 00:06:09.259 --> 00:06:13.259 that's really the spark of where great ideas come from. So you just mentioned 81 00:06:13.379 --> 00:06:17.220 something which I'm very passionate about, is the culture. And so many be 82 00:06:17.420 --> 00:06:21.250 to be companies, and you and I have spoken about this. We kind 83 00:06:21.250 --> 00:06:28.930 of sanitize, get really generic, we lose the humanity of who were speaking 84 00:06:29.009 --> 00:06:31.490 to, which is, you know, people on the other side, our 85 00:06:31.490 --> 00:06:34.839 customers, are people who think can feel. So how do you make sure 86 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:41.639 that that human element stays kind of that common thread, beyond just doing a 87 00:06:41.800 --> 00:06:46.310 brand transplant, but even once that concept has come to life, that it's 88 00:06:46.430 --> 00:06:50.470 just not so sterile? And how we go out to market and tell that 89 00:06:50.670 --> 00:06:55.790 story, because, again, we're talking to human beings. Yeah, absolutely. 90 00:06:55.990 --> 00:07:00.350 And and be to be brands. We have a complexity bias, is 91 00:07:00.430 --> 00:07:03.899 that if something looks simple and it can be done quickly without a lot of 92 00:07:03.980 --> 00:07:09.339 money, then we think it doesn't have credibility. And you know, and 93 00:07:09.459 --> 00:07:12.540 it's true, we see this over and over and that's why you see companies 94 00:07:12.540 --> 00:07:16.129 spend millions of dollars on companies like de Lighton Mackenzie and come in and and 95 00:07:17.170 --> 00:07:24.769 people feel like adding complexity gives them credibility and makes them important. And that 96 00:07:24.889 --> 00:07:28.769 comes back to this human side of all of it, is that if we 97 00:07:28.970 --> 00:07:33.319 can stop and say, okay, let's focus on the idea and not on 98 00:07:33.959 --> 00:07:39.160 the ego, then how can we start to make this successful? And part 99 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:44.949 of this comes from it stems from how we organize groups within an organization. 100 00:07:45.149 --> 00:07:47.589 So take marketing, for example, since that's what you and I know best, 101 00:07:48.069 --> 00:07:53.509 and we look at if you look at the hiring process, we are 102 00:07:53.709 --> 00:07:58.939 hiring four labels of people, not for the natural genius of people themselves. 103 00:07:59.060 --> 00:08:03.019 So we like in marketing, I kid you not, these are actual job 104 00:08:03.139 --> 00:08:07.459 titles in markets. There's play it all right, and yet there's the digital 105 00:08:07.620 --> 00:08:11.620 overlord, there's the director of fun and this one's my favorite, the part 106 00:08:11.699 --> 00:08:18.089 times are and and we add all this complexity and we try to put labels 107 00:08:18.290 --> 00:08:20.250 on the work that we do to make us feel important. But what it 108 00:08:20.329 --> 00:08:24.370 does is that's the first step of stripping out the humanity of the work that 109 00:08:24.490 --> 00:08:28.879 we do. And if you start to look at instead of the labels of 110 00:08:28.920 --> 00:08:33.720 a job, because job labels create boxes and then when we stack these boxes 111 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:37.320 together, that creates the side throws. And then you look at the silos 112 00:08:37.360 --> 00:08:41.909 within marketing. Then you add that to the silos within it and finance and 113 00:08:41.950 --> 00:08:46.470 product in every other group within an organization, and it's no wonder that we're 114 00:08:46.549 --> 00:08:50.029 so sterile and inhuman. And so if we start to look at this work, 115 00:08:50.149 --> 00:08:54.190 particularly with Change Management and innovation and bringing in new ideas, to say, 116 00:08:54.309 --> 00:09:00.059 okay, what's the natural genius of Carlos like, what is he really, 117 00:09:00.100 --> 00:09:05.139 really good at? And I've started to see these archetypes within organizations and 118 00:09:05.299 --> 00:09:07.820 this is where you say things like, you know what, I think we're 119 00:09:07.860 --> 00:09:13.049 onto something, but let's go call Carlos because he is so good at strategy. 120 00:09:13.409 --> 00:09:16.049 Now, that may or may not be your job title, but that 121 00:09:16.370 --> 00:09:18.330 is a natural genius that you bring to the table. And so, with 122 00:09:18.490 --> 00:09:22.049 all of this, with our culture, if we can start to look at 123 00:09:22.090 --> 00:09:24.600 particularly with innovation, we can start to look at the role of what I 124 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:31.799 call citizen innovators, of people who just bring their natural ability to look at 125 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:37.519 new ideas to communicate them. There's no one right way to innovate and I've 126 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.990 actually seen that there's six different archetypes of people who are really successful at bringing 127 00:09:43.070 --> 00:09:46.830 new ideas forward, and when we look at it from that point of view, 128 00:09:46.269 --> 00:09:50.870 then we're able to keep the humanness in the ideas that we have and 129 00:09:50.990 --> 00:09:56.100 we're also able to build that that consensus and that support around an idea, 130 00:09:56.419 --> 00:09:58.779 so it's less likely to die that early, painful death that you know, 131 00:09:58.899 --> 00:10:03.860 takes away everybody's hope, because people want to do thin work. Want to 132 00:10:03.940 --> 00:10:05.980 do work that makes them excited, that makes them feel like they're going to 133 00:10:07.019 --> 00:10:09.929 change the world. That's just our natural human nature. I love that. 134 00:10:11.090 --> 00:10:16.769 I think what I hear you saying is when we create these boxes of here's 135 00:10:16.809 --> 00:10:20.600 your job description and thou shalt not deviate from it, it almost creates a 136 00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:28.600 behavior of while I can't get involved or I'm not allowed to use my voice 137 00:10:28.440 --> 00:10:33.639 because of this box I've been put in, and therefore it's literally I'm going 138 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:37.309 in to punch the clock, do my duty and check out. Is that 139 00:10:37.389 --> 00:10:41.389 what you're seeing in the organizations you work with? Yeah, absolutely, and 140 00:10:41.750 --> 00:10:46.909 especially as you see more job titles for marketing innovation, what I see is 141 00:10:48.029 --> 00:10:52.220 that they're starting to scrape away at some of these other areas within an organization. 142 00:10:52.419 --> 00:10:56.100 And we've seen marketing do this for so many years. You know, 143 00:10:56.220 --> 00:11:01.220 marketing has more role in hand in it now a customer experience. Now we 144 00:11:01.259 --> 00:11:05.690 see innovation and when we focus just on the job titles it really hurts things. 145 00:11:05.809 --> 00:11:09.730 So if you look at an organization that has its own specific innovation group, 146 00:11:11.049 --> 00:11:15.970 one it's generally focused on product or service. It's not overall innovation as 147 00:11:16.009 --> 00:11:20.840 a culture. And when you have these groups they are quarantined in their own 148 00:11:20.840 --> 00:11:24.600 kind of real estate. You know, if it's a hip company, they 149 00:11:24.679 --> 00:11:28.960 probably have stand up desks. You know, they have their dress, more 150 00:11:28.000 --> 00:11:33.149 casually I say they have the sleeves of tattoos, they have your different haircuts. 151 00:11:33.470 --> 00:11:35.950 In more traditional kind of companies, you know, maybe they're the PhD's 152 00:11:37.070 --> 00:11:39.950 and something there, the design thinkers or whatever it is. But there's a 153 00:11:41.149 --> 00:11:46.740 clear demarcation between the innovators and everybody else. And when you do that and 154 00:11:46.860 --> 00:11:50.700 you ask somebody else in those kind of companies for you know, hey, 155 00:11:50.779 --> 00:11:52.899 what's that idea? How do you think we could do this better? They 156 00:11:52.899 --> 00:11:56.779 go that's not my job, that's that's the innovation team's job. Or they 157 00:11:56.820 --> 00:12:01.019 say well, I'm not smart enough to figure this out, because I'm not 158 00:12:01.019 --> 00:12:03.450 a PhD, I'm not a design thinker, I'm not a you know whatever 159 00:12:03.690 --> 00:12:09.049 and fill in the blank. And when we're able to focus on a culture 160 00:12:09.049 --> 00:12:13.049 where we not only believe that everybody can bring great ideas to the table, 161 00:12:13.129 --> 00:12:18.759 but we start to expect it, that changes the whole dynamic of how people 162 00:12:18.840 --> 00:12:22.799 show up and that's really what leads to this citizen innovator. I love that 163 00:12:22.960 --> 00:12:28.200 phrase, citizen Innovator, and my my thought goes to an interview I read 164 00:12:28.240 --> 00:12:33.230 with Tim Cook, CEO of Apple, where he was asked about the limits 165 00:12:33.669 --> 00:12:39.669 that apple faces and he responded and said there's that word again, limit. 166 00:12:39.350 --> 00:12:43.659 He said it's not even part of our DNA. So when you talk to 167 00:12:43.820 --> 00:12:50.820 companies, are there things that you say you need to eliminate, whether it 168 00:12:50.940 --> 00:12:56.379 be words, phrases, job titles, although director of fun, I would 169 00:12:56.379 --> 00:12:58.970 like to I would like that one. We've been in lot marketing long enough 170 00:13:00.009 --> 00:13:01.610 to know they totally made that up. They haven't been in marketing very long 171 00:13:01.690 --> 00:13:05.610 if they think it's all fun exactly. But are the things that you say 172 00:13:05.730 --> 00:13:09.889 the companies look in order to really succeed at this. You know it does 173 00:13:09.970 --> 00:13:13.080 have to be part of your DNA. It's not just, you know, 174 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:16.639 pronow postcards and put innovation along the walls. It has to be DNA. 175 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:20.279 And then, in order for that to seep in and become part of that 176 00:13:20.320 --> 00:13:22.559 DNA, there are some things you have to eliminate. Do you go to 177 00:13:22.679 --> 00:13:26.389 that length with your customers? I do, but actually what I start out 178 00:13:26.429 --> 00:13:31.789 to do first is I have them do an assessment and I'll give you just 179 00:13:31.909 --> 00:13:35.389 a quick overview of it, but I haven't go through a process to understand 180 00:13:35.710 --> 00:13:39.950 whether it's their team or their department that I work with. What type of 181 00:13:41.110 --> 00:13:46.259 innovator are they naturally? And I base this on research from the University of 182 00:13:46.299 --> 00:13:50.059 Michigan and then added some extra to it based on research that I had done, 183 00:13:50.100 --> 00:13:54.779 and I see that there's six different types of archetypes, and this is 184 00:13:54.860 --> 00:13:58.049 where we say things like Carlos is a natural strategist. You know so and 185 00:13:58.210 --> 00:14:03.690 so is a natural people person. We see these innate qualities and people that 186 00:14:03.850 --> 00:14:07.970 we know that they will bring to any situation, it doesn't matter what their 187 00:14:07.009 --> 00:14:13.840 job title is, and these are characteristics of these six archetypes. And when 188 00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:18.159 I start to work with the company, what I want them to understand first 189 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.840 is what's the balance of your company right now? Like ore, if you're 190 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:28.350 a really be to be engineer driven company, you may be full of strategists, 191 00:14:28.710 --> 00:14:33.549 but you don't have any collaborators who can reach across the aisle and understand 192 00:14:33.629 --> 00:14:37.620 how to move an idea forward. You don't have any orchestrators who seem to 193 00:14:37.659 --> 00:14:43.659 be wizards at working all the bureaucracy in the politics of an idea. You 194 00:14:43.740 --> 00:14:48.460 know, you're so out of balance that you aren't able to have any small 195 00:14:48.580 --> 00:14:54.450 winds and successes. So your team doesn't feel like it's influential, it doesn't 196 00:14:54.450 --> 00:14:56.649 feel like it's working with purpose, and so that's the first thing that I 197 00:14:56.730 --> 00:15:00.330 do is is to say, okay, let's let's take a test and just 198 00:15:00.409 --> 00:15:05.009 understand the dynamics of what your team is now and what you're missing, and 199 00:15:05.330 --> 00:15:09.720 looking at that first before we start to talk about what they need to eliminate. 200 00:15:09.320 --> 00:15:13.159 Okay, so you mentioned first of all, I love I love starting 201 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:18.559 with that assessment versus clean out the garbage, because I think clean out the 202 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:22.909 garbage is more of a negative connotation and starting out that way probably is defeating. 203 00:15:24.509 --> 00:15:30.230 But you mentioned the six archetypes. So you mentioned strategists, collaborators orchestrators. 204 00:15:30.870 --> 00:15:33.669 What are the other three? So the strategist, I'll give you a 205 00:15:33.669 --> 00:15:35.740 little run through of all six of them. So strategist, there like their 206 00:15:35.740 --> 00:15:41.460 natural genius is that they know how to plan in execute and they can really 207 00:15:41.580 --> 00:15:45.179 see around the corner for what's going to what's going to happen. And you 208 00:15:45.259 --> 00:15:46.580 know, you and I have seen this, Carlo, is, where we 209 00:15:46.740 --> 00:15:52.529 see people who are great strategists but they don't know they can't breach it into 210 00:15:52.610 --> 00:16:00.250 execution. So a true strategist understands a strategy that's great based on the execution 211 00:16:00.330 --> 00:16:03.799 and they love to get things done. Then we have the collaborators, and 212 00:16:04.320 --> 00:16:11.919 their natural genius is integration. So they know that ideas can never go anywhere 213 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:15.440 unless they become, you know, unless they work all of all of the 214 00:16:15.519 --> 00:16:18.309 processes, and they love to help improve these ideas. And there's the kind 215 00:16:18.309 --> 00:16:22.269 of people. They're rare, but they're the kind of people who don't necessarily 216 00:16:22.309 --> 00:16:26.629 care about the personal credit. They just want to see the idea succeed because 217 00:16:26.870 --> 00:16:33.059 because they believe in it. Yeah, absolutely, and to be honest, 218 00:16:33.059 --> 00:16:36.700 we don't see that a lot and then we have the orchestrator, and they 219 00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:42.580 are the people who just lead fearlessly and they're able to like, like choreograph 220 00:16:42.700 --> 00:16:47.169 the whole process and just seem to keep it humming. That's why I call 221 00:16:47.250 --> 00:16:51.929 them they're a little bit of wizards and they know how to drive these relationships 222 00:16:52.129 --> 00:16:56.649 and and the reputation of innovation. And you know, especially as a citizen 223 00:16:56.769 --> 00:17:00.889 Innovator, and there was the the seth good and book about Lynch Pans. 224 00:17:00.090 --> 00:17:03.599 That's really what an orchestrator is is they're the ones who can get things done. 225 00:17:03.640 --> 00:17:10.279 Yep. Then we then we look at the culture shaper and they are 226 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:17.670 great at understanding how to architect the brand and understand how to oversee the message 227 00:17:17.829 --> 00:17:22.789 and how it's how it's expressed, and they're able to sculpe that image of 228 00:17:22.950 --> 00:17:29.950 innovation and ideas and articulate the range of things that people can do and are 229 00:17:30.019 --> 00:17:32.619 expected to do. And I think that's a little bit where Tim Cook comes 230 00:17:32.660 --> 00:17:37.380 in, because he's been very good at that at at Apple. And then 231 00:17:37.619 --> 00:17:41.140 we look at the provocateur and what they do. They are the people who 232 00:17:41.259 --> 00:17:45.970 challenge the status quo. Now we see these to your question about what needs 233 00:17:45.970 --> 00:17:49.410 to be cleaned out to start out with. Lots of times when I work 234 00:17:49.450 --> 00:17:52.930 with the company, they'll say, can you just get rid of so and 235 00:17:52.009 --> 00:17:56.849 so, because they are such pain and you know what to work right, 236 00:17:56.009 --> 00:18:00.200 always pushing, pushing, and and actually you need these people on your team. 237 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:04.880 You need them to push past the obvious. And they are these people 238 00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:11.200 who are they're sustainable, with great ideas and they're really prolific, but they're 239 00:18:11.240 --> 00:18:15.549 under appreciated because people look at them as hard to get along with. You 240 00:18:15.630 --> 00:18:18.589 know, they're always pushing back or not team players. It's just that their 241 00:18:19.390 --> 00:18:25.309 area of how they innovate is different from other people's and it's important that we 242 00:18:25.390 --> 00:18:30.460 understand that. And then the last time is a psychologist and they naturally have 243 00:18:30.700 --> 00:18:34.900 empathy for a customer, whether it's internal to an organization or outside, for, 244 00:18:36.660 --> 00:18:40.220 you know, a beatb customer or who whoever it is. And they're 245 00:18:40.299 --> 00:18:47.170 the ones that are able to really smash this traditional perspective that innovation is highly 246 00:18:47.250 --> 00:18:52.410 rational and we have to use very much are left brain and stats and data 247 00:18:52.410 --> 00:19:00.200 and everything. They are the ones who bring this unstructured innovation and probably they 248 00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:06.599 are the key people who are driving the need for trust in organizations that we 249 00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:10.869 see that is so important now. So it's the being able to walk in 250 00:19:10.950 --> 00:19:15.150 the shoes of their customer but also to understand it and do something with it 251 00:19:15.549 --> 00:19:18.549 in order to build that trust. That's awesome. So if I'm if I'm 252 00:19:18.589 --> 00:19:22.430 a listener and I'm sitting here saying, okay, I've just heard all sex 253 00:19:22.549 --> 00:19:29.019 and a little flyby of what each one. How does someone self identify? 254 00:19:29.180 --> 00:19:32.700 How do they go about saying hey, because I talked to marketers all the 255 00:19:32.779 --> 00:19:36.859 time who know they want to innovate but they don't know how or they don't 256 00:19:36.859 --> 00:19:41.329 understand what role they can play. So are there some steps people can take 257 00:19:41.450 --> 00:19:48.609 to say yes, I fall more towards orchestrator versus provocateur. Yeah, actually, 258 00:19:48.650 --> 00:19:52.170 I have an assessment. It's short and quick version of what I do 259 00:19:52.369 --> 00:19:56.279 when I work with clients and you can go to it. It's Carla Johnson 260 00:19:56.440 --> 00:20:03.279 Dot coeocom innovation, hype and quiz, and you can go and it lists 261 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:07.750 all the archetypes in of ideas or gives the descriptions of what they are, 262 00:20:07.789 --> 00:20:11.950 and then people can go through and, in six questions, understand who their 263 00:20:11.069 --> 00:20:15.269 archetype is. Now this is really the research that I've been doing and having 264 00:20:15.309 --> 00:20:19.910 people take this assessment has been really eye opening for me because as we look 265 00:20:19.910 --> 00:20:26.420 at innovation and what's required within an organization, people think they're doing things and 266 00:20:26.619 --> 00:20:32.140 building teams in ways that I can see through my research isn't actually happening. 267 00:20:32.339 --> 00:20:37.130 So if you think about a company that's truly innovative, what would be? 268 00:20:37.329 --> 00:20:40.170 I'm just going to ask you, Carlos, like what might be a couple 269 00:20:40.210 --> 00:20:44.769 of those archetypes that you think would be obvious? I'm an innovation team. 270 00:20:45.170 --> 00:20:49.359 I think the obvious ones would be a strategist and an orchestrator. Yeah, 271 00:20:49.359 --> 00:20:53.960 I thought. I would also think that people confuse an orchestrator or a collaborator. 272 00:20:55.079 --> 00:21:00.079 Perhaps I'm wrong, I would agree. And interestingly, those are two 273 00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:03.309 of the smallest percentage of people who are showing up on a team. So 274 00:21:03.750 --> 00:21:07.190 that the most obvious one or the the biggest one that shows up are these 275 00:21:07.230 --> 00:21:12.150 culture shapers, and I think that comes because people we've been talking for so 276 00:21:12.230 --> 00:21:15.750 many years, but we have to tell stories and storytelling and I think it's 277 00:21:15.829 --> 00:21:22.900 more closely connected to the brand and how a brand is expressed. That is 278 00:21:22.660 --> 00:21:27.740 traditional marketing type role, but it goes beyond that. So most of the 279 00:21:27.859 --> 00:21:32.420 people who've taken my quiz, twenty eight percent of them, they show up 280 00:21:32.420 --> 00:21:36.369 as culture shapers. Now right behind that is psychologist. That's twenty five percent, 281 00:21:36.569 --> 00:21:38.690 and I think this is also something that has been on the rise because 282 00:21:38.730 --> 00:21:41.970 we've been talking about voice of the customer for so many years. We've been 283 00:21:41.970 --> 00:21:47.640 talking about empathy and marketing. Now I'm not saying that they're able to take 284 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:51.400 all of their empathy and infuse it into the be to be work because, 285 00:21:51.559 --> 00:21:55.359 like you said, we still see the soul of humanity stripped out of a 286 00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:57.440 lot of be to be marketing, but I think it's a sign that at 287 00:21:57.480 --> 00:22:03.750 least people with that natural genius are becoming attractive to marketing and so they're going 288 00:22:03.829 --> 00:22:08.509 into that now. Interestingly, the orchestrator, the people who we need to 289 00:22:08.589 --> 00:22:14.869 leave fearlessly both for marketing and for innovation, are the lowest percentage of people 290 00:22:15.109 --> 00:22:19.180 who show up in this assessment. Only eight percent are identied as as orchestrators. 291 00:22:19.299 --> 00:22:22.859 Now now we go back to thinking about how can we rethink the work 292 00:22:22.900 --> 00:22:26.380 that we do in the impact that we can have if we don't have these 293 00:22:26.460 --> 00:22:33.410 people who are willing to leave fearlessly and work the internal bureaucracy and, you 294 00:22:33.490 --> 00:22:38.250 know, be the the movement behind everything that seems to happen, you know, 295 00:22:38.289 --> 00:22:41.730 kind of the wizard behind the curtain. Then that's a lot of the 296 00:22:41.849 --> 00:22:47.720 reason why things don't get moved forward. And even strategist, strategist, there's 297 00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:52.279 only fourteen percent. And so people may have that job role, that job 298 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:56.839 title as a strategist, but that's not how they naturally fun ocean and so 299 00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:03.990 they're not able to make the most of that role because it's not a situation 300 00:23:03.150 --> 00:23:07.829 of behavior that comes natural to them. So this is also fascinating and I 301 00:23:07.950 --> 00:23:11.230 know we've talked about at a different levels and every time we do I'm like, 302 00:23:12.019 --> 00:23:17.140 this is just, like it said, fascinating. Gay I I hope 303 00:23:17.220 --> 00:23:21.259 someday you'll publish all the research that you've done. So you use the word 304 00:23:21.380 --> 00:23:26.299 fearlessly twice and one of the things that I encounter, and I don't know 305 00:23:26.500 --> 00:23:33.410 that marketers would explicitly state this, but in many organizations there is fear. 306 00:23:33.490 --> 00:23:37.089 Fear that I make a mistake, fear that my idea is going to be 307 00:23:37.490 --> 00:23:42.240 looked at as ridiculous or unattainable, and again that gets back to the human 308 00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:47.480 element. We, as human being sometimes are limited by our fear. So, 309 00:23:47.880 --> 00:23:52.559 whether I'm an individual contributor or manager or CEO, what are some things 310 00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:57.910 I can do to eliminate the obstacle of fear so that I can truly because 311 00:23:57.910 --> 00:24:03.869 I would imagine your research also shows a new scene where fear is is predominant, 312 00:24:04.069 --> 00:24:07.230 innovation is going to be stifled. So what do you do to eliminate 313 00:24:07.349 --> 00:24:11.140 that? Absolutely, you know, one of the quickest things that can start 314 00:24:11.180 --> 00:24:17.140 to change a dynamic is looking how you give feedback to people. And what 315 00:24:17.299 --> 00:24:18.700 happens now, and this is I see it all the time, it being 316 00:24:18.819 --> 00:24:22.619 the organizations. Is What I call the gladiator effect. So many comes to 317 00:24:22.660 --> 00:24:26.930 their boss, to their team, you know, fellow team Coworker, and 318 00:24:26.970 --> 00:24:30.210 let's say, Hey, I have an idea, what do you think about 319 00:24:30.210 --> 00:24:33.690 it? And they just show me idea and the people look at them and 320 00:24:33.730 --> 00:24:34.970 they give me either a thumbs up or a thumbs down, you know, 321 00:24:36.089 --> 00:24:40.279 just like the gladiator's the idea either live or it dies. And then that 322 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:44.519 fit because we're busy and we go on to something else. And when people 323 00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:48.480 come to their bosses or their co workers, with these ideas. It's hard 324 00:24:48.680 --> 00:24:52.559 like that takes a lot of courage and if you look at the at the 325 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:57.829 counter to fear, it's courage and this ability to get people to continually come 326 00:24:57.910 --> 00:25:00.750 B back to the drawing board and say here's an idea, here's an idea. 327 00:25:02.069 --> 00:25:03.630 Is that we have to look at. How do we change a dynamic 328 00:25:03.750 --> 00:25:08.059 of that present pitching idea and then giving feedback is we need to start by 329 00:25:08.059 --> 00:25:11.220 saying, okay, here's what I liked about the idea. And I'll be 330 00:25:11.380 --> 00:25:15.619 honest, some ideas maybe so bad that the only good thing you can say 331 00:25:15.740 --> 00:25:19.140 is I appreciate that you took the time to put this together and come talk 332 00:25:19.180 --> 00:25:22.210 to me about it. So here's here's what I like. The other thing 333 00:25:22.329 --> 00:25:26.529 is what I wish like. What do you see is missing or what do 334 00:25:26.609 --> 00:25:30.609 you wish this idea would take into account? That it isn't. Now. 335 00:25:30.849 --> 00:25:36.799 Both of these give the person who shared an idea specifics about how to be 336 00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:40.960 better. One it made him feel good because you you told them what you 337 00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:44.319 liked about the idea or the fact that they came forward. The other thing 338 00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:48.759 is that you've now given them clear, specific pathway in what they can leave 339 00:25:48.799 --> 00:25:52.349 and go do now to make that a better idea. And sometimes what I 340 00:25:52.430 --> 00:25:55.430 wish is, you know, I wish we had the point of view or 341 00:25:55.509 --> 00:25:59.829 perspective or insight from somebody in it to see how this would actually be executed. 342 00:26:00.230 --> 00:26:03.710 Well, that teaches them how to become a better in how to become 343 00:26:03.750 --> 00:26:07.859 a better innovator, and it also starts to teach people how to become a 344 00:26:07.099 --> 00:26:15.339 better storyteller about ideas, because if we look at how ideas are brought forward 345 00:26:15.460 --> 00:26:18.299 now, we generally have a need. You know, it's a time for 346 00:26:18.380 --> 00:26:21.849 strategic planning. We have a campaign, we have a customer problem, let's 347 00:26:21.849 --> 00:26:26.369 get together, let's brainstorm, and you know, we've been in so many 348 00:26:26.450 --> 00:26:30.369 brainstorming sessions between you and I, Carlos, it's I'm a I'm amazed we've 349 00:26:30.450 --> 00:26:34.759 survived, but they're their brutal in either you don't get any new ideas because 350 00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:38.839 people are afraid that we're a new idea to the table, or people say, 351 00:26:38.920 --> 00:26:41.799 well, you know, we don't really have time, let's just grab 352 00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:44.759 the same thing that we've always done and, you know, put some lipstick 353 00:26:44.759 --> 00:26:47.000 on it, fluff it up a little bit and, being rightful, I 354 00:26:47.079 --> 00:26:49.349 think it's something freshion new. But that's where we go back to. If 355 00:26:49.430 --> 00:26:56.910 you can look at something that another brand does and move your brand attachment disorder 356 00:26:56.029 --> 00:27:00.309 aside and look at what's the essence behind that idea that we could move into 357 00:27:00.349 --> 00:27:04.299 our situation, then what they can do is start, they have a storyline, 358 00:27:04.740 --> 00:27:10.299 to tell, a story about an idea, and that gets people engaged 359 00:27:10.460 --> 00:27:15.529 and interested and interestingly, that kind of a storyline about what's Pos possible activate 360 00:27:15.690 --> 00:27:22.609 specific chemicals and people's brains, and we know about Cortisol and oxytocin. When 361 00:27:22.690 --> 00:27:27.130 you start a pitch by talking about a story and giving people something that gives 362 00:27:27.170 --> 00:27:33.200 them context and understanding, it starts to release oxytocin in their brain, so 363 00:27:33.799 --> 00:27:37.279 they feel better. They're less likely to just, you know, slam the 364 00:27:37.359 --> 00:27:41.400 door and give people the thumbs down and they're much more likely to give feedback 365 00:27:41.599 --> 00:27:47.150 the what I wish, kind of feedback that helps that idea become better, 366 00:27:47.710 --> 00:27:52.470 because in the world of innovation, bad pitches can kill even the best of 367 00:27:52.589 --> 00:27:56.910 great ideas. Yeah, I would agree with that. I would absolutely agree 368 00:27:56.950 --> 00:28:02.420 with that. You know, Carli, I probably could easily stay on and 369 00:28:02.500 --> 00:28:07.099 talk about it at least another hour. Not only do I love the work 370 00:28:07.220 --> 00:28:11.420 you're doing around innovation, but the passion and I feel like I feel very 371 00:28:11.460 --> 00:28:15.210 privileged that. I feel like I've had kind of a front row seat, 372 00:28:15.210 --> 00:28:19.250 because I remember sitting outside a starbucks where you had stacks of paper and research 373 00:28:19.329 --> 00:28:25.329 and you were really just kind of moving into it, and so I think 374 00:28:25.329 --> 00:28:29.880 it's so needed in our be tob world. So is someone who is listening 375 00:28:29.960 --> 00:28:32.759 says hey, I want to know more. Do me a favor and tell 376 00:28:32.799 --> 00:28:36.160 them again where they can find you. And then where do they follow you? 377 00:28:36.480 --> 00:28:38.759 And all your social media active? Yeah, absolutely. My website is 378 00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:45.670 Carla Johnson Dot ceocom. Just just see. You can go there. I 379 00:28:45.829 --> 00:28:49.069 blog on this regularly. You can find me on Linkedin as Carla Johnson. 380 00:28:49.549 --> 00:28:55.940 You can find me on instagram at Carla Johnson Dot CEO, twitter at Carla 381 00:28:55.980 --> 00:29:00.299 Johnson. You can see a good consistency there. Can't shoo. That's right. 382 00:29:00.460 --> 00:29:03.059 Tell it. Tell them a consistent story. Well, Carlos, thank 383 00:29:03.140 --> 00:29:04.980 you. Thank you so much and, as I mentioned, perhaps will have 384 00:29:06.019 --> 00:29:10.410 another session where we get you back on. But I do love the work 385 00:29:10.450 --> 00:29:14.769 that you're doing around innovation. I think it is desperately needed in our BB 386 00:29:14.930 --> 00:29:18.049 world, and thanks for giving us a glimpse into all of the amazing work 387 00:29:18.170 --> 00:29:22.130 that you were doing. So this is a wrap on the human to human 388 00:29:22.250 --> 00:29:29.599 segment of the BTB growth podcast. Go Visit Carla Johnson Dot CEO and get 389 00:29:29.640 --> 00:29:34.000 your innovation learning. Thank you for joining us, Carlor Fidalgo, and we 390 00:29:34.160 --> 00:29:41.829 will see you next time. We totally get it. We publish a ton 391 00:29:41.910 --> 00:29:45.190 of content on this podcast and it can be a lot to keep up with. 392 00:29:45.710 --> 00:29:48.509 That's where we've started the B tob growth big three, a no fluff 393 00:29:48.549 --> 00:29:52.980 email that boils down our three biggest takeaways from an entire week of episodes. 394 00:29:53.420 --> 00:30:00.819 Sign up today at Sweet Phish Mediacom Big Three. That sweetphish MEDIACOM big three. 395 -->