#H2H 9: The Dangers of Quotas and a Discussion About Failure w/ Berrak Sarikaya

WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.440 --> 00:00:08.390 Hey there, this is James Carberry, founder of sweet fish media and one 2 00:00:08.429 --> 00:00:11.310 of the cohosts of this show. For the last year and a half I've 3 00:00:11.310 --> 00:00:15.070 been working on my very first book. In the book I share the three 4 00:00:15.189 --> 00:00:19.550 part framework we've used as the foundation for our growth here at sweetfish. Now 5 00:00:19.589 --> 00:00:22.699 there are lots of companies that have raised a bunch of money and have grown 6 00:00:22.739 --> 00:00:25.699 insanely fast, and we featured a lot of them here on the show. 7 00:00:26.460 --> 00:00:30.660 We've decided to bootstrap our business, which usually equates to pretty slow growth, 8 00:00:31.219 --> 00:00:34.820 but using the strategy outlined in the book, we are on pace to be 9 00:00:34.979 --> 00:00:38.729 one of inks fastest growing companies in two thousand and twenty. The book is 10 00:00:38.810 --> 00:00:42.810 called content based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. 11 00:00:43.369 --> 00:00:45.689 If you're a fan of audiobooks like me, you can find the book 12 00:00:45.689 --> 00:00:48.729 on audible or if you like physical books, you can also find it on 13 00:00:48.810 --> 00:00:54.439 Amazon. Just search content based networking or James Carberry. Car be a ARY 14 00:00:54.840 --> 00:00:58.840 in audible or Amazon and it should pop right up. All right, let's 15 00:00:58.880 --> 00:01:04.989 get into the show. Welcome to the Bob Gross show. I am Carlos 16 00:01:06.069 --> 00:01:11.750 Hidalgo, CEO and Co founder of Visen CCX and author of the UN American 17 00:01:11.829 --> 00:01:17.269 dream. Today I have with me a rather new friend who I met a 18 00:01:17.510 --> 00:01:22.379 number of months ago but have been absolutely thrilled to get to know and and 19 00:01:22.620 --> 00:01:30.340 had great time with her in Seattle recently and was an incredible host. Barocks, 20 00:01:30.459 --> 00:01:34.730 sorry, Kaia. Barack is a writer, amplifier, speaker and go 21 00:01:34.930 --> 00:01:38.209 to market strategist. Barack, thanks for joining the B to be growth, 22 00:01:38.290 --> 00:01:41.049 human to human segment. Thank you so much for having me. It's for 23 00:01:41.129 --> 00:01:42.849 the light to be here. Well, as I mentioned, you and I 24 00:01:42.890 --> 00:01:47.439 are relatively new friends. We met at marketing pross not all too long ago 25 00:01:47.519 --> 00:01:49.840 and then, as it happened, you played a heck of a host to 26 00:01:51.159 --> 00:01:56.079 us in Seattle. But tell the audience a little bit about who you are, 27 00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:00.879 what you do, your your history or your passion for be to be 28 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:05.109 and kind of what what you're up too lately. Sure, so I am 29 00:02:05.629 --> 00:02:07.150 what I've been up to. I so. I call myself an amplifier. 30 00:02:07.229 --> 00:02:14.030 I am a go to market argist. Content is my baby. People may 31 00:02:14.069 --> 00:02:17.259 be from there with me through content, marketing world and marketing props. Those 32 00:02:17.300 --> 00:02:23.300 are kind of the the networks in the industries of the industry conferences I've attended 33 00:02:23.419 --> 00:02:29.500 and spoken at the most and I my passion comes from really storytelling. So 34 00:02:29.659 --> 00:02:34.090 writing is where it all started for me, and then ten years ago I 35 00:02:34.250 --> 00:02:38.289 just kind of stumbled into this content marketing, social media community, everything that 36 00:02:38.449 --> 00:02:44.090 we get to play around with, and I think smallest is I'm a small 37 00:02:44.129 --> 00:02:46.800 business advocate. That's where to be, to be really hume as a play 38 00:02:46.280 --> 00:02:51.800 and I've worked on a Plusthora of project, but the ones that always have 39 00:02:51.960 --> 00:02:55.560 my passion are two ones where I get to advocate and amplify and help other 40 00:02:55.639 --> 00:03:00.389 people tell their story. So I whether that's doing it through my work at 41 00:03:00.430 --> 00:03:05.469 Yaser as a go to market strategists with some of the clients that I'm working 42 00:03:05.550 --> 00:03:08.469 with. I'm not going to name drop, but I have worked with people. 43 00:03:08.550 --> 00:03:10.949 Can look that up, but I've worked with companies, you know, 44 00:03:12.150 --> 00:03:15.020 small to large, some of the larger tech companies that were famliy with here 45 00:03:15.060 --> 00:03:20.020 in scattle, and I think that it all comes down to as much as 46 00:03:20.020 --> 00:03:24.300 I loved to be and BTC, what I have found is that, no 47 00:03:24.419 --> 00:03:31.050 matter who you're what the third with the two is whether it's business or consumer, 48 00:03:31.770 --> 00:03:36.449 it all comes down to the same tenants that I think that we're going 49 00:03:36.449 --> 00:03:39.610 to be talking about today. So that's that's really where kind of a overview 50 00:03:39.610 --> 00:03:44.000 of what I've been up to the past fifteen years. Well, awesome. 51 00:03:44.080 --> 00:03:47.000 I Love I love the term amplifier, and especially as we tell stories, 52 00:03:47.639 --> 00:03:52.680 and we both been in bb for a long time and I know we've talked 53 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:57.270 about this a little bit off the air. I'm, I mean increasingly, 54 00:03:57.870 --> 00:04:02.389 to use the British term, gob smacked at the content that seems to come 55 00:04:02.430 --> 00:04:08.870 out from so many brands that really is just got awful. It's not compelling, 56 00:04:09.110 --> 00:04:13.900 it's not relevant, it is sterile, all of these things. How 57 00:04:14.060 --> 00:04:16.180 on earth you mentioned some tenants, and so feel free to speak of the 58 00:04:16.379 --> 00:04:21.139 about that, but how on Earth have we gotten so far away in be 59 00:04:21.300 --> 00:04:27.810 to be from being human in our content? I think it has a lot 60 00:04:27.970 --> 00:04:32.370 to do with the fact that so I think the Internet and social lydia fantastic. 61 00:04:32.449 --> 00:04:35.930 I think that they're great tools and I think that, you know, 62 00:04:36.649 --> 00:04:44.279 having a landscape that is full of competitors that are using the same tools, 63 00:04:44.399 --> 00:04:46.839 whether or not they're using it well is a different story. I think that 64 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:51.160 we've kind of gotten caught in this. Put things out, put things out 65 00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:56.509 in a way that's fast, in a way that will it's just bombard our 66 00:04:56.589 --> 00:04:59.949 audience with content. It doesn't matter if it's good or not. And I 67 00:05:00.029 --> 00:05:04.310 think depending on the size of your company, there are a lot of stakeholders 68 00:05:04.389 --> 00:05:08.980 that may not necessarily understand what it is that you, as a we as 69 00:05:09.060 --> 00:05:13.019 marketers, are trying to accomplish. So we turned into kind of a execution 70 00:05:13.139 --> 00:05:15.420 arm and we're just trying to turn out numbers and match, you know, 71 00:05:15.620 --> 00:05:20.449 goals that are set, not necessarily with marketers input. So I think one 72 00:05:20.529 --> 00:05:27.050 of the biggest issues that we have, that I'm seeing and that I'm advocating 73 00:05:27.089 --> 00:05:30.410 for is the fact that as marketers, we have to be internal advocates for 74 00:05:30.449 --> 00:05:33.649 ourselves and the work that we do and it and, as a result, 75 00:05:33.769 --> 00:05:38.360 our audience, because we know what it is that they want to talk about 76 00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:41.519 and you know, there's, of course, profits and there's, you know, 77 00:05:41.639 --> 00:05:44.399 job security and all of that. But I think that we've gotten so 78 00:05:44.600 --> 00:05:49.790 used to the turn that we don't take the time to really internally advocate and 79 00:05:49.829 --> 00:05:57.110 educate other stakeholders and breaking down those silos that they understand, that they understand 80 00:05:57.189 --> 00:06:02.029 this strategy and the reason behind why we'll pushing for more, as you said, 81 00:06:02.069 --> 00:06:06.660 humanized content, right it. So I love that that you're talking about. 82 00:06:06.740 --> 00:06:11.379 Hey, advocating for what we do, right, advocating for ourselves are 83 00:06:11.939 --> 00:06:15.699 what I heard was our value, and I've talked to people about that. 84 00:06:15.860 --> 00:06:18.689 is saying hey, look, you are the evangelist for your craft in your 85 00:06:18.730 --> 00:06:24.850 organization. I don't think we can just assume that people know what we do. 86 00:06:26.209 --> 00:06:29.129 So how does somebody go about that, because I hear so I'm so 87 00:06:29.410 --> 00:06:31.850 tired of your marketers going we want to see it at the table. It's 88 00:06:31.879 --> 00:06:38.319 like, well, then do something right then as a table that see the 89 00:06:38.360 --> 00:06:42.399 table, but also bring value to the table, versus going well, you 90 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:45.720 know, I'm just been turned into an execution arm. I mean, am 91 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:48.509 I wrong? Do we bear some responsibility for that as marketers? Yeah, 92 00:06:48.550 --> 00:06:53.269 absolutely we do, and I mean I've done the same thing and I'm at 93 00:06:53.310 --> 00:06:55.910 fault for this as well, because we just, you know, sometimes we 94 00:06:55.990 --> 00:07:00.029 get some walk down and the biggest thing that I have found, and what 95 00:07:00.189 --> 00:07:02.699 I when I talk to people and when they ask me for advice or you 96 00:07:02.779 --> 00:07:06.939 know, what I'm talking to my clients, is okay, so you know 97 00:07:08.139 --> 00:07:11.980 your goals, as in marketing, are different and you want to understand and 98 00:07:12.779 --> 00:07:15.730 you want to communicate that value and you want to see at the table, 99 00:07:15.850 --> 00:07:18.529 well then go find out what it is that other people need and what their 100 00:07:18.569 --> 00:07:23.810 goals are, because the product marketer versus the engineer, I'm just kind of 101 00:07:23.889 --> 00:07:28.329 thinking like there's a big company, like product market versus engineer, versus CFO, 102 00:07:28.529 --> 00:07:32.519 versus like customer service, like, they all have different goals. Yes, 103 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:38.839 we're serving the same customer, but they have internal goals that they're trying 104 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:42.879 to do, they have different things that they're trying to communicate. So if 105 00:07:42.920 --> 00:07:45.149 you want to be an advocate and if you want to have a seat at 106 00:07:45.189 --> 00:07:49.069 the table and you want to provide values to those other people that are within 107 00:07:49.149 --> 00:07:53.509 your company, then go and talk to him and find out what their pain 108 00:07:53.589 --> 00:07:56.509 points are, the same way that we talk to our customers. In the 109 00:07:56.550 --> 00:07:58.860 same way we find out what their pain points are and what it is that 110 00:07:59.019 --> 00:08:01.660 they what, what it is that they value. When they need look inwards 111 00:08:01.740 --> 00:08:05.899 and do the same thing for other people who do have a seat at the 112 00:08:05.939 --> 00:08:09.019 table and then go okay, so here's what I'm hearing here. Pain Point, 113 00:08:09.420 --> 00:08:13.490 here are the ways that I can help you in the work that I 114 00:08:13.610 --> 00:08:18.009 do and let's work together. I love that. It's really aligning what we 115 00:08:18.329 --> 00:08:22.129 do to the needs of the business. I was just going to say that's 116 00:08:22.170 --> 00:08:26.689 my I have a gift that I use and presentations as like you got a 117 00:08:26.689 --> 00:08:30.560 ladder up the business goals and as the kitten climate, a labber ladders. 118 00:08:30.639 --> 00:08:35.159 But it works. Yeah, it does. And I think when I hear 119 00:08:35.399 --> 00:08:39.080 marketers saying, well, you know, I have different my goals are different. 120 00:08:39.399 --> 00:08:41.549 No, you're part of the business. If I want different goals, 121 00:08:41.590 --> 00:08:46.429 go start your own business. All right. So I love that and I 122 00:08:46.629 --> 00:08:50.750 hope anybody who's listening really takes that to heart and says, okay, if 123 00:08:50.830 --> 00:08:54.470 I'm not aligned with the goals of the business, maybe I don't know what 124 00:08:54.629 --> 00:08:58.100 the business needs. That's that's the first way. So I want to shift 125 00:08:58.100 --> 00:09:03.899 gears now because you've talked in the introduction. You talked about amplifying and storytelling. 126 00:09:05.580 --> 00:09:09.049 Storytelling to me is, I mean right. You go back to ancient 127 00:09:09.129 --> 00:09:16.169 civilizations and human beings have, our human race has existed on stories and tales 128 00:09:16.250 --> 00:09:22.649 and fables and Lore and all those things. So I'm always intrigued by storytelling. 129 00:09:22.490 --> 00:09:26.360 What are brands missing? What are beat to breed brands missing in terms 130 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:33.840 of making the story connect at a human level? They make the story about 131 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:37.399 them and not the customers. And that's the biggest I mean, and it 132 00:09:37.480 --> 00:09:39.870 all boils onto that. So there are different ways that people do it well 133 00:09:39.909 --> 00:09:43.350 and don't do it well and depending on the company and the industry. But 134 00:09:43.870 --> 00:09:50.029 the biggest thing is we always the common theme that I find in the failure 135 00:09:50.230 --> 00:09:54.059 of connection from baby brands is when, even in customer stories, even in 136 00:09:54.220 --> 00:10:00.659 case studies, you really talk about how our products that X, Y Z, 137 00:10:01.299 --> 00:10:05.019 instead of saying, okay, here's what our customer needed, here where 138 00:10:05.019 --> 00:10:07.690 they're struggles and here's the value we brought. So it's not just about the 139 00:10:07.730 --> 00:10:11.370 numbers. Yet the numbers are important. The EX number of hours you save 140 00:10:11.529 --> 00:10:15.570 the company me an x number of, you know, dollars. A bottom 141 00:10:15.610 --> 00:10:18.769 profit, fantastic, but really get down to the route of the connections. 142 00:10:18.809 --> 00:10:24.480 Those numbers won't matter to another customer who's looking at vendors or who's looking at 143 00:10:24.039 --> 00:10:28.399 you know, those case cities to go okay, well, great, that 144 00:10:28.519 --> 00:10:33.639 doesn't diffrenchiate you. Because another thing is that when it comes to storytelling is 145 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:39.470 that increase that connection. I can look at by company that have the same 146 00:10:39.830 --> 00:10:43.429 facts, that are doing the same exact things the same way and that are 147 00:10:43.509 --> 00:10:46.750 going to save me the same profit or whatever it is that I need. 148 00:10:46.429 --> 00:10:50.379 What I'm looking for is, can they tell my story? Are they going 149 00:10:50.500 --> 00:10:56.220 to do their values aligned with mine? Are they going to communicate with me 150 00:10:56.899 --> 00:11:03.220 and about me in a way that reflects my bulsome values? And I think 151 00:11:03.299 --> 00:11:05.889 that's something that we're missing. And be tob is that the end user. 152 00:11:07.009 --> 00:11:09.490 Even though it's a business, it's still an end user, it's still a 153 00:11:09.649 --> 00:11:13.769 customer that has values and we need to make sure that we're connecting but those. 154 00:11:15.490 --> 00:11:20.159 I think that's so important to talk about the end user because I think 155 00:11:20.240 --> 00:11:22.039 sometimes a Beb we think, well, we're still into a business for selling 156 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:26.279 to an account and one of the things that I was even talking about yesterday 157 00:11:26.320 --> 00:11:31.799 with a colleague was saying we are selling to people who feel, who emote, 158 00:11:31.879 --> 00:11:35.909 who have bad days, who have fears, who are frustrated and, 159 00:11:35.070 --> 00:11:39.309 like you said, I even like it even more the value component. So 160 00:11:39.389 --> 00:11:43.309 how do you go about finding the values that a buyer has? You talk 161 00:11:43.389 --> 00:11:50.740 to them. Imagine, I know I mean honestly, like I think you 162 00:11:50.220 --> 00:11:54.980 just have to pass to and I know that their quotas and sales people are 163 00:11:54.019 --> 00:12:00.500 under incredible pressure and I'm not dismissing that at all, but I think we're 164 00:12:00.539 --> 00:12:03.730 not taking the time and I think the reason I we're seeing, and I 165 00:12:03.809 --> 00:12:05.570 mean I don't mean to get Super Technlo, we're seeing low conversions on, 166 00:12:07.210 --> 00:12:09.690 you know, communications and outreach and all of that, is because it's all 167 00:12:09.929 --> 00:12:18.200 cold and it cold calling and cold emails are that. They're cold. So 168 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:24.039 doing a little research, even before you have a communication, people put a 169 00:12:24.200 --> 00:12:28.000 lot of information out there and a lot of foods about themselves out there. 170 00:12:28.519 --> 00:12:31.230 To do a little diggings, do a little understanding. Maybe talk to if 171 00:12:31.309 --> 00:12:35.549 you are familiar with other vendors that you know they work with that are not 172 00:12:35.629 --> 00:12:39.309 your competitors, that are serving that customer. Maybe go talk to them and 173 00:12:39.830 --> 00:12:43.460 find out what you can. I just it's just talking. It's about information 174 00:12:43.580 --> 00:12:48.259 exchange, it's about and it's about really listening. We're really not doing that 175 00:12:48.379 --> 00:12:50.980 well. So, yeah, so why aren't we? It's see, I 176 00:12:52.059 --> 00:12:56.460 mean it seems so and I'm not trying to insult anybody, but it just 177 00:12:56.500 --> 00:13:03.009 seems like Gee, if I need to connect with you. So if Carlos 178 00:13:03.090 --> 00:13:07.049 wanted to connect with Barack and find out what you're interested in rather than get 179 00:13:07.210 --> 00:13:13.120 ass I would maybe pick up the phone. You know, we met it 180 00:13:13.480 --> 00:13:15.840 at in DC a number of months ago. I was like, Oh, 181 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:16.960 hey, we're going to be in Seattle. Do you want to do drinks? 182 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:22.240 You know, so it's but why don't we do that when we get, 183 00:13:22.399 --> 00:13:26.639 when we cross the threshold into our companies and realize we're trying to market 184 00:13:26.679 --> 00:13:31.029 two people? What's holding us back? What is it was? It's, 185 00:13:31.389 --> 00:13:33.990 yeah, it's numbers that are holding us back, and it's, you know, 186 00:13:33.190 --> 00:13:39.429 and sales people have to hit certain number of calls or outreach, marketers 187 00:13:39.470 --> 00:13:43.500 have to hit vanity metrics that you know, on social media or emails or 188 00:13:43.659 --> 00:13:48.419 whatever it is that we're doing. And we are. So I am I 189 00:13:48.500 --> 00:13:50.379 don't and I don't want to to come acause I love data. I think 190 00:13:50.379 --> 00:13:54.769 that data is amazing and I think that'll actually I just post it on like 191 00:13:54.889 --> 00:14:00.169 sin. About an hour before we talked about how data is really going to 192 00:14:00.210 --> 00:14:03.850 be, you know, important and a lot of me, to be marketers, 193 00:14:03.129 --> 00:14:09.450 actually need to get familiar with data and then analyzing it and seeing actually 194 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:13.840 pulling insight from it and telling that story on the data. But I think 195 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:18.559 it's a double lights towards because if we're only blogged down in the numbers and 196 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:22.559 the metrics and the quotas but we're not looking at the bigger picture and the 197 00:14:22.600 --> 00:14:28.509 narrative behind them, then we're losing that opportunity to really connect. I would 198 00:14:28.549 --> 00:14:33.710 much rather have, you know, a thousand followers on twitter that fifty, 199 00:14:33.789 --> 00:14:39.059 sixty percent at a time. They're all engage with me versus the person are 200 00:14:39.100 --> 00:14:43.100 engagement with me versus like tenzero followers. But I get to like them a 201 00:14:43.179 --> 00:14:46.139 tweet any given day. Like it's sure it's about the it's about the quality 202 00:14:46.379 --> 00:14:50.740 of the connection and the communication, I think, and I and it's still 203 00:14:52.019 --> 00:14:54.129 it goes back to our education as well as marketers. We have a lot 204 00:14:54.250 --> 00:15:01.330 of insight that we really need to share with the other the other departments and 205 00:15:01.370 --> 00:15:03.090 the other people, of course, have been the same customer. Sure, 206 00:15:03.129 --> 00:15:09.320 okay, I like it and I hope what I really hope is people are 207 00:15:09.399 --> 00:15:13.279 going, oh, okay, because what you just said about quotas is I'm 208 00:15:13.320 --> 00:15:16.320 not saying, and I agree with you. I don't think quotas are a 209 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:20.200 bad thing, but what we have to realize is that quotas cannot dictate what 210 00:15:20.710 --> 00:15:26.830 is behavior in terms of getting the most we and I talked about this with 211 00:15:26.950 --> 00:15:31.110 exacts all the time, and I believe you share the same view as my 212 00:15:31.230 --> 00:15:35.309 God. We got to be patient, like marketing, and getting getting a 213 00:15:35.629 --> 00:15:41.460 close up view of our customer is not an overnight endeavor and we've got to 214 00:15:41.539 --> 00:15:43.860 make sure there's a difference between doing things right and doing things right now, 215 00:15:45.580 --> 00:15:48.700 and I see so many companies saying will get it right now. That doesn't 216 00:15:48.700 --> 00:15:52.250 that's not how it works. Yeah, and especially in BTB, we know, 217 00:15:52.690 --> 00:15:58.730 and like research touchdown even recently at the Bob Customer Life Cycle is long 218 00:15:58.250 --> 00:16:03.440 and it evolved multiple touchpoints and involves multiple people that we need to commit. 219 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.759 So that's where also use data to segments and personalize and make sure you're sending 220 00:16:07.759 --> 00:16:12.600 him you know you're communicating at touch points that actually matter and that you know 221 00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:18.159 you have a narrative that you're following in your communication. So yeah, like 222 00:16:18.279 --> 00:16:22.190 you said, and I had a client I actually worked with a start out 223 00:16:22.350 --> 00:16:25.629 years ago and they were brand new and it was a great idea and I 224 00:16:25.789 --> 00:16:29.389 really loved it. But we have like a closed Beta and we were we 225 00:16:29.470 --> 00:16:33.820 were building a video platform and one of the engineers was just like, okay, 226 00:16:33.860 --> 00:16:40.980 well, we want apple like numbers up launch and said, first of 227 00:16:41.019 --> 00:16:44.019 all, that's not how that works. Second of all, you don't have 228 00:16:44.100 --> 00:16:48.009 to budget, we're apple like numbers and third of all, we're doing a 229 00:16:48.129 --> 00:16:52.250 private, closed Beta launch. Your public launch is not going to be so 230 00:16:52.409 --> 00:16:56.570 it was just setting expectations. But that's what that's what people expect, is 231 00:16:56.809 --> 00:17:03.039 they see the big viral campaigns and they're great, but you don't have the 232 00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:07.559 budget and even if you have the budget, your apple like numbers, what 233 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:12.359 apple like means to you might be lower, it might not be one to 234 00:17:12.480 --> 00:17:15.950 one equivalent to the same number, but it could be scaling down and it 235 00:17:17.029 --> 00:17:21.430 would can reflect the same thing. So I think that. Yeah, and 236 00:17:21.789 --> 00:17:23.950 to be clear, apple didn't have apple like numbers when it first started either. 237 00:17:25.309 --> 00:17:26.630 I mean, I don't know, I don't know what's time about. 238 00:17:26.630 --> 00:17:30.700 They totally came out swinging right like yeah, they are just every brand, 239 00:17:30.819 --> 00:17:34.940 every band good starts day one as a Unicorn. I mean it's no surprise 240 00:17:36.019 --> 00:17:38.740 based on the conversations we've had kind of your viewpoint on this, but I 241 00:17:38.779 --> 00:17:42.339 want to shift gears a little bit because when we were sitting in that amazing 242 00:17:44.410 --> 00:17:48.450 restaurant you took us to in Seattle, we started to talk about just being 243 00:17:48.529 --> 00:17:52.970 human and part of the human condition and the word failure came up. If 244 00:17:52.009 --> 00:17:57.009 I recall, we were kind of talking about the American dream and some of 245 00:17:57.049 --> 00:18:00.640 the things that we had written in there my wife. My wife has a 246 00:18:00.680 --> 00:18:04.880 chapter in it as well about some of our failings and where we screwed up, 247 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:07.839 and you said, you know, you're I don't want to put words 248 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:11.119 in your mouth, but I'm going to. I'm gonna use the word fascinated, 249 00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:15.549 kind of fascinated with this idea of you know, everybody's got a failure 250 00:18:15.789 --> 00:18:22.829 story and everybody has this either learnings. But what I'm finding, and feel 251 00:18:22.869 --> 00:18:27.019 free to disagree, is that people are it's kind of like we know it 252 00:18:27.660 --> 00:18:33.019 but now all of a sudden were very hesitant to talk about it. But 253 00:18:33.099 --> 00:18:36.019 I want to get your take because it was really, for me, one 254 00:18:36.059 --> 00:18:40.539 of the highlights of the of the conversation we had over those few hours, 255 00:18:41.059 --> 00:18:44.289 and just kind of see what you're seeing in the whether it's be to be 256 00:18:44.450 --> 00:18:48.849 or just business in general or entrepreneurial or whatever around failure. Yeah, so 257 00:18:49.730 --> 00:18:55.529 it's fast, because I feel a lot will come the clouding. Yeah, 258 00:18:55.720 --> 00:18:57.880 I think so. It's fascinates me and this is something that came of a 259 00:18:59.160 --> 00:19:03.279 few years ago. I had an idea and then I actually fail to follow 260 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:07.039 through with it, but I'm hoping that I will be launching that interview series 261 00:19:07.079 --> 00:19:11.470 in two thousand and twenty about talking about failure and just to kind of so 262 00:19:11.589 --> 00:19:15.789 I think they're kind of multiple ways to talk about this. But I think 263 00:19:15.869 --> 00:19:19.069 what I'm seeing, and this is kind of shifted over to possibly as people 264 00:19:19.069 --> 00:19:26.660 are talking about failure, even as businesses, but they are putting a curated 265 00:19:26.700 --> 00:19:32.380 filters on it. So they are they're not talking about their failure until they 266 00:19:32.500 --> 00:19:36.299 can wrap it up in a nice little story, which great. That's fine. 267 00:19:36.619 --> 00:19:41.650 And you know, people talk about entrepreneurs and business owners and CEOS talk 268 00:19:41.769 --> 00:19:45.970 about, you know, like the first launch or the first something that they 269 00:19:47.009 --> 00:19:49.809 launched that they failed, but they don't talk about it in the Rod grotty 270 00:19:49.849 --> 00:19:53.680 way. They don't talk about they'll talk about their morning with teams, but 271 00:19:53.720 --> 00:19:56.960 they don't talk about the morning that they actually fail to get up out of 272 00:19:57.039 --> 00:20:00.839 bed. They don't talk about the missed phone calls and the emails that they're 273 00:20:00.880 --> 00:20:06.880 missing because, you know, they're so bogged down and they're honestly, we're 274 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:11.269 not talking about the human side effect of failure that actually impacts us every day 275 00:20:11.670 --> 00:20:15.509 and the way that we deal with it, in the way we manage it. 276 00:20:15.750 --> 00:20:19.069 And and when it comes to businesses, and obviously I don't think anybody 277 00:20:19.109 --> 00:20:22.299 should be getting away safe secrets when it comes to their business. And I 278 00:20:22.579 --> 00:20:29.140 know it's a fine line, but I think we want to see more of 279 00:20:29.740 --> 00:20:33.460 that transparency behind the scenes, like when something goes wrong, when a server 280 00:20:33.619 --> 00:20:38.329 goes down. We don't want the silent of like hey, we'll figure it 281 00:20:38.369 --> 00:20:41.210 out and let you know, and then ten hours go buy and we're still 282 00:20:41.289 --> 00:20:45.250 frustrated. We want to know, understand what's going on in the back end. 283 00:20:45.289 --> 00:20:48.089 We want to know, hey, here's how our business is deal get, 284 00:20:48.130 --> 00:20:52.119 here's our process for it, here's what we found, and then tell 285 00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.720 us about the learnings and you know. And if you need to have it 286 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:00.839 as a narrative and tie it to something else, don't side your product place, 287 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:04.670 but tie you to like you know three things. We learned when our 288 00:21:04.710 --> 00:21:07.829 server went down for ten hours and here come much cost that we lost and 289 00:21:08.109 --> 00:21:11.230 here's what we're going to do better. So that's the business side of it. 290 00:21:11.390 --> 00:21:15.829 But when it comes to the entrepreneur and human and just people, the 291 00:21:15.990 --> 00:21:22.460 narrative around failure is it's glossed over. Even if we even talk about it, 292 00:21:22.539 --> 00:21:26.500 it's glossed over. It's templicize it, we're putting it in a blog 293 00:21:26.740 --> 00:21:30.579 format that is tied up in a neat little bow. And you know, 294 00:21:30.819 --> 00:21:36.049 we have perfect learning. Sometimes you fail, you screw up and you don't 295 00:21:36.089 --> 00:21:40.130 learn anything from it, and we'll talk about those two. Like he it's 296 00:21:40.210 --> 00:21:42.329 not only going to be some grand life lesson that you're learning. Sometimes I 297 00:21:44.329 --> 00:21:48.720 failed at following up email and it cost me like X, Y Z and 298 00:21:48.720 --> 00:21:52.680 okay, you know what I failed and that was it and I'm and here's 299 00:21:52.680 --> 00:21:55.359 what I'm going to do better next time. But you don't have to have 300 00:21:55.559 --> 00:22:00.549 like a not everything has to turn into a perfect photo graphics that you're going 301 00:22:00.589 --> 00:22:06.789 to send out with here links her blog posts. So so think that's where, 302 00:22:07.349 --> 00:22:10.670 yeah, I like that and I like even, I think, the 303 00:22:10.750 --> 00:22:14.549 the brand. That's I mean I'm when you talked about the server going down, 304 00:22:14.549 --> 00:22:18.380 I thought of, you know, the collective fetal position that everybody want 305 00:22:18.420 --> 00:22:23.059 to into and Thanksgiving when facebook and Instagram we're having their outages, and I 306 00:22:23.140 --> 00:22:26.579 remember saying to my wife, I said, I said something about I guess 307 00:22:26.579 --> 00:22:30.170 they're down. I said I feel bad for the people who are now being 308 00:22:30.210 --> 00:22:37.009 called in in those companies to fix this on Thanksgiving Day. That's where my 309 00:22:37.170 --> 00:22:41.289 head went. I haven't heard anything else on from either of the you know, 310 00:22:41.410 --> 00:22:45.599 from facebook, about why they want out or anything. But wouldn't that 311 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:48.480 make a brand so much more human? I mean failure again, as I 312 00:22:48.519 --> 00:22:52.200 said, it's part of the human condition. I would love for an organization 313 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:56.640 to go hey, yeah, we're really sorry about this, here's what happened 314 00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:00.829 and here's the steps that we've taken. Why are brands taking those opportunities? 315 00:23:00.309 --> 00:23:03.269 And we'll talk about the entrepreneur in a minute, but why aren't brain saying 316 00:23:03.349 --> 00:23:07.390 those opportunities to become more human? Because I think, I mean, if 317 00:23:07.589 --> 00:23:11.309 I'm about face, facebook might be like the weird example, but I think 318 00:23:11.670 --> 00:23:15.460 one thing might be and I'm not super familiar with you know, process with 319 00:23:15.539 --> 00:23:21.619 shareholders and all of that. But I'm sure they're mechanical their process douse these 320 00:23:21.700 --> 00:23:26.019 and legal blockers and all of that set in place. Where larger companies like 321 00:23:26.099 --> 00:23:30.130 that, which I think they need to have a crest of communications plan that 322 00:23:30.450 --> 00:23:33.769 also builds in humanity to it. But when it comes to smaller companies, 323 00:23:33.930 --> 00:23:41.759 I think there's that fear of looking weak and there's that fear of following their 324 00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:45.920 customers losing space in them. And you know, and, but and that 325 00:23:47.839 --> 00:23:52.240 I lose faith in more in companies when they don't tell me what happened and 326 00:23:52.319 --> 00:23:57.789 there's no transparency, because then I won't know if five days or five weeks 327 00:23:57.829 --> 00:24:00.950 of five once down the line, that's going to happen again. So I 328 00:24:02.150 --> 00:24:07.390 think I think it's the fear of being vulnerable. I think there's probably legal 329 00:24:07.430 --> 00:24:10.420 stuff happening on the back end, which obviously it is, but and it's 330 00:24:10.460 --> 00:24:15.140 probably a lack of having good crisis of communications plan in place to fact through 331 00:24:15.220 --> 00:24:21.819 in the humanity to external communications. Yeah, that that you just used a 332 00:24:21.900 --> 00:24:26.210 word that can strike fear into the best of us. Vulnerability. And when 333 00:24:26.329 --> 00:24:32.289 you when you think about so, shifting to the the entrepreneur, the individual, 334 00:24:33.329 --> 00:24:40.039 to get really raw and how you failed. You know the mistakes you 335 00:24:40.160 --> 00:24:42.559 made. I mean you're really at that point kind of going, Yep, 336 00:24:42.640 --> 00:24:47.799 I'm just going to lay it all bear. That's a scary proposition. But 337 00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:52.599 again, I think, I mean all of us have have a story of 338 00:24:52.950 --> 00:24:56.430 immense failure in our realize. If you don't, you haven't lived long enough. 339 00:24:57.950 --> 00:25:03.990 But again, you've mentioned this interview series. I'm curious, like in 340 00:25:03.109 --> 00:25:07.259 your in your experience and as you've kind of prepped for this and even talk 341 00:25:07.339 --> 00:25:11.500 to some folks about it, like what what's holding us back in that? 342 00:25:11.019 --> 00:25:15.339 I think of PAT is going to emerge as I talked and more people, 343 00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:18.500 but I think it really goes down to their root of and that's going to 344 00:25:18.539 --> 00:25:23.250 get super real for people when I start talking about it. But how what 345 00:25:23.450 --> 00:25:27.250 your first exposure to failure? Was it the kid? And how? You 346 00:25:27.329 --> 00:25:32.289 know, cultural, like family culture, where you were, where you grow 347 00:25:32.329 --> 00:25:34.329 up? You know, I think that the definition of failure, in the 348 00:25:34.369 --> 00:25:38.680 concept of failure, varies a cross cultures, as we know, and it's 349 00:25:38.720 --> 00:25:44.960 definitely a matter of how it was received and how it was communicated to you 350 00:25:45.559 --> 00:25:48.119 when you were a kid and how that evolved. As you can meet, 351 00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:52.789 as you met other people and as you were exposed to different people in your 352 00:25:52.829 --> 00:25:55.910 life and in your first job and things like that, and I think it's 353 00:25:55.910 --> 00:26:00.230 an evolution that really the root of it is really in how you were exposed 354 00:26:00.230 --> 00:26:04.420 to failure as a kid and at your first job and things like that, 355 00:26:04.579 --> 00:26:10.940 and I think that really takes hold in our psyche and that will eventually shape 356 00:26:11.059 --> 00:26:15.779 how we define failure in our business. So that whole, and I'm a 357 00:26:15.819 --> 00:26:19.289 big believer in this, getting back to that inner child right, which we 358 00:26:19.450 --> 00:26:25.289 never really out grow, we just grow older and grayer and those things. 359 00:26:25.970 --> 00:26:32.130 So I love that you're tapping into that aspect of it and that cultural aspect 360 00:26:32.289 --> 00:26:36.720 of it's really just goes back to so much of family of origin. And 361 00:26:36.880 --> 00:26:38.599 then I would throw in, and I want to your feedback on this, 362 00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:44.400 and my friend Tim Washer has said this. The one thing that unite all 363 00:26:44.519 --> 00:26:52.470 seven billion plus of us is shame and I believe that one of the reasons 364 00:26:52.630 --> 00:26:56.750 we don't like to talk about our failings at any kind of raw, vulnerable, 365 00:26:56.789 --> 00:27:02.619 authentic way is because that voice of shame can roar so loud. Are 366 00:27:02.619 --> 00:27:04.700 you finding that in some of the work that you're doing? Yeah, but 367 00:27:06.180 --> 00:27:11.059 I'm pretty sure the voice of shame is the loudest thing in my head most 368 00:27:11.059 --> 00:27:15.099 of the time. But and yeah, I think he's combs it up really 369 00:27:15.140 --> 00:27:18.289 well and I you know, I actually that's exactly why it. Tim is 370 00:27:18.329 --> 00:27:19.769 on my list of people I'm going to interview. He doesn't know that yet, 371 00:27:19.809 --> 00:27:26.210 but they can find out when he listens to it. But and I 372 00:27:26.289 --> 00:27:29.410 I actually met him for the first time when we met in DC as well, 373 00:27:29.490 --> 00:27:34.920 so he's such a fantastic human but see is yeah, shame and and 374 00:27:36.000 --> 00:27:38.920 I think there's a I mean, if we get into it, there's a 375 00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:42.920 whole bullying aspect of it and the way we've you know, we've all been 376 00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:48.269 believe in our lives in different aspects, and social media and Internet has definitely 377 00:27:48.309 --> 00:27:53.190 amplivided in some ways and has also brought out our humanity and others. But 378 00:27:53.309 --> 00:28:00.420 I think it's just a matter of redefining and reconditioning an entire generation. This 379 00:28:00.619 --> 00:28:03.700 is not going to be something that's conditioned out of us that quickly. But 380 00:28:03.779 --> 00:28:07.380 I think how we deal with it and how we manage it as a society 381 00:28:07.660 --> 00:28:12.769 is definitely something that can involve enough. People are talking about it. Well, 382 00:28:12.809 --> 00:28:15.210 I love it. I'm excited that you're going to do that. I 383 00:28:15.250 --> 00:28:19.450 would definitely add washerer to the list. He's you're exactly right. He has 384 00:28:19.450 --> 00:28:23.049 a great human he's a good friend and, you know, I think you'll 385 00:28:23.089 --> 00:28:26.240 have a lot to offer. Brock, I want to thank you for taking 386 00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:30.880 the time. I know you're extremely busy to be on the show. I 387 00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:36.799 think your insights are great. A Big Fan, so thanks for taking the 388 00:28:36.920 --> 00:28:41.230 time, thanks for sharing your insights and please keep everybody updated on the interview 389 00:28:41.230 --> 00:28:45.950 series, because I think it'll be fascinating and I think as much as we 390 00:28:45.789 --> 00:28:51.150 as human beings don't like to talk about it, I think we're actually drawn 391 00:28:51.190 --> 00:28:55.430 to vulnerability in a very interesting way. Yeah, absolutely, thank you. 392 00:28:55.470 --> 00:28:59.019 Thanks for having me. This has been Super Fun to talk about and it's 393 00:28:59.500 --> 00:29:03.299 definitely vulnerable of me to talk about things, but I'm working on so it's 394 00:29:03.339 --> 00:29:07.460 been nice. Full Circle. Well, the cats out of the bag now. 395 00:29:07.859 --> 00:29:11.690 Hey, in closing, where can people follow up? Where can they 396 00:29:11.769 --> 00:29:15.049 find you? Where can they connect with you? I they can to find 397 00:29:15.130 --> 00:29:18.529 me the easiest, poby on twitter, brock, Biz, back, Biz, 398 00:29:18.609 --> 00:29:22.329 all over to face, BERE AK, B I Z and yeah, 399 00:29:22.490 --> 00:29:26.519 just find me, follow me, can connect with me if you're interested in 400 00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:30.960 being interviewed. I'm not just interviewing marketers. It's going to be actually all 401 00:29:32.440 --> 00:29:36.039 walks of life and different industries and different you know, I have a couple 402 00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:38.630 of active friends that I have lined up. So if you're interested and maybe 403 00:29:38.670 --> 00:29:41.549 if you're not a marketer or if you know someone who's super interesting has a 404 00:29:41.589 --> 00:29:45.670 great sporty Pew, he should come find me. That sounds awesome. Well, 405 00:29:45.750 --> 00:29:48.789 thanks again, Barack. It was a pleasure. Look forward to the 406 00:29:48.869 --> 00:29:52.059 next time we can have a chat in person. This is a wrap for 407 00:29:52.180 --> 00:29:57.140 the this segment of the B Tob Growth, human to human segment podcast. 408 00:29:57.579 --> 00:30:02.819 Thanks to Barack starry Kaia for being our guest and again I am Carlos Hidalgo, 409 00:30:03.339 --> 00:30:07.650 author of the on American dream. Everybody, have a great day. 410 00:30:11.329 --> 00:30:15.529 We totally get it. We publish a ton of content on this podcast and 411 00:30:15.609 --> 00:30:18.690 it can be a lot to keep up with. That's why we've started the 412 00:30:18.809 --> 00:30:22.640 BEDB growth big three, a no fluff email that boils down our three biggest 413 00:30:22.680 --> 00:30:27.880 takeaways from an entire week of episodes. Sign up today at Sweet Fish Mediacom 414 00:30:29.559 --> 00:30:33.759 big three. That sweet fish Mediacom Big Three