Transcript
WEBVTT
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Yeah,
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welcome back to BTB growth. I'm dan
Sanchez with Sweet fish Media and I'm
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here with Trey Scheunemann who is the
executive Director of marketing at
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Ramsey solutions tray, welcome to the
show dan my linkedin buddy. This is a
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long time coming here. You and I've
been connected for, I don't know, a
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year, year and a half or so. I love
your content, I love this podcast and
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I'm stoked to be here excited to talk
to you today. Yes, I've been looking
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forward to this show for a long time.
It's been months, months in the works
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of back and forth and now we're finally
here and I'm excited to talk to you
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because I know Ramsey's Had some huge
growth over the last decade. Remember
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listening to Dave way back in 2010,
just went onto the leadership was
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launched and of course it's it's grown
tremendously since then from a few 100
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people to well over 1000 employees now
and I know you guys are building a
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whole new building, you're probably
you're going to be at Maybe over 2000
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soon. Yeah, with all that change, all
that growth comes a significant amount
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of change. And so one of the things we
talked about in our pre interview was
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some of the changes taking place in
your marketing team and I thought the
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audience would just be fascinated to
know how you guys are organizing those
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things but to kind of kick it off, I
wanted to know how many marketers do
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you currently have at Ramsey. So we are
a Matrix organization. So marketing is
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a Matrix discipline within Ramsey and
we're going to talk more about that as
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we go. I actually had to go and look
this number up because I was unsure. As
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of just last week we have 100 and eight
marketers who work here at Ramsey, so
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about 10% of the company is in some
marketing discipline. Um And that just
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accounts for the actual marketing
strategist or the channel specialists
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that we have, that does not account for
the sort of support personnel that go
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into creating marketing work, which
we'll talk about that structure here
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shortly, but that, you know, writers,
designers, engineers, so on and so
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forth. But just pure marketers a little
over 100. So for those who aren't
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familiar with like the whole Matrix
style, like there's usually a few
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different ways to organize market
departments within a, I can't even say
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large organizations but mid sized to
large companies, What are the few
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different types of ways to organize
marketing? Yeah. So my client's
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experience, I've experienced two ways.
Uh And then I had agency experienced
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before that and I'd say I experienced
most of these ways as well, you tend to
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either have the fully embedded model
where if you're in a specific business
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business line item or a business unit
within the overall P and L. Of a of a
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mid sized company, you have fully
embedded teams who only work on that
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information or you'll have sort of the
somewhat embedded Center of Excellence
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model where some of your team fully
work in the business and some of your
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team act more as consultative voices
around specific channels or specific
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strategies. And then the third model
that I've seen when I was an agency
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world is the other model where there
were no embedded marketers anywhere
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inside the actual business units of the
organization. They were all the center
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of excellence and they kind of acted as
an internal agency within the brand. So
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or so I've seen that range of client
side, uh kind of set ups and Ramsey
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functions very much in the middle. One
of those three that I that I discussed,
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some embedded in some more center of
excellence. I've seen a few of them
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myself and I've noticed going back from
one to the other, I was kind of like,
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uh like it's always, there's always
pros and cons, right? There's never
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enough resources. Usually when you have
dedicated marketing teams working for
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an individual business unit, right,
they're always missing something or one
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team has this specialty person, you're
like, oh, can we get some of that
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person's help? Right? So there's always
a downfall with that model. But at the
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same time, the agency model, I think we
both know how that's panned out at
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times where the biggest business unit
gets all the attention and there's
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always the smaller business units that
are always crying crying foul. We never
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get treated enough. But for marketing,
right, we never get our fair share,
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which is pretty much at every
organization that runs that that's
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happened to me and I'm usually the
project manager in the middle trying to
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keep the peace, which is no fun. Now
the Matrix model has been interesting,
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right? And I've seen a lot of people
recommended, I've no verne Harnish is a
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big fan of the Matrix model, but where
verne Harnisch from scaling up would
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recommend essentially, I think having
like a brand manager within the middle,
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in the marketing department that
reports to the business unit leader and
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has a dotted line to the CMO, you guys
do the opposite? How did you, how did
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you arrive at that conclusion? To mix
it up that way? I would say primarily
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because if you think about Ramsey's
history. So for those who are
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unfamiliar with Ramsey solutions, most
people would know our Ceo Dave Ramsey's
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gotta talk radio show that he's had for
20 some odd years on money management,
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personal finance management, things of
that nature. But we do lots of other
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things books, you know, we've got B two
B services, we have about 15 different
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business lines within the Ramsey
Solutions umbrella. So in the early
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days here, you know, when we, the
marketing was very centralized into
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that kind of agency or single team
approach, there were certain things
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that got the coverage is certain that
didn't and so we knew there was gonna
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be a scale and when you're moving out
of sort of the traditional channels of
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radio, live events, book kind of
traditional media and into digital
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media, uh, there was, there was a real
need and a desire to make sure that the
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discipline of marketing stay true to
the craft and stayed straight through
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to the growth model while the business
units kind of caught up. And so that's
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why we, we have, it's still even today,
you know, we are direct line to our
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discipline and then died aligned to the
business. Now, that's a reporting,
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that's an organizational structure. Um,
I would say functionally I spend 85% of
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my time and the businesses that I serve.
And so with my teams that I lied, but
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at the end of the day, you know, who do
I ultimately report to? You know, my
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seat reports up through to the CMO of
the organization and so do the business
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unit Marketer's report up through me.
And I think it's more from a discipline
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oversight standpoint than it is
necessarily a objective or key results,
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sort of accountability standpoint. All
that comes from the business. And it's
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worked for us. It's worked for us in
that we've, like I said, we've, we've
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grown a hunt, you know, from, from 12
or 15, 10, 12 years ago to over 100
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going to grow even more now, you know,
is it something that's up for
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discussion long term might be, I don't
know, that's just the model that we've
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deployed up to this point. Would you
guys say that Ramsey's is like a
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marketing almost feel like, I don't
know like even 10 years ago, like a
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popular mantra that people have been
banging the drum on ever since then is
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marking department should become media
departments, right? I feel like
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Ramsey's has kind of grown up like that.
Like Ramsey literally started as a
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radio show and then grew into a
business. Like it's always been a media
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company, It's always had marketing at
the forefront. Do you feel like that
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might play into like why it's such a
marketing focused organization? Yeah, I
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would say we're heavy sells the
marketing driven organization and that
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kind of his nuance very specifically
from the D. N. A. Of of our ceo himself
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and Dave, I mean in his core, he is an
incredible salesman. He's an incredible
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marketer. The gentleman can, can do
positioning like very few other people,
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um that I've ever seen. And he's also
the only Ceo I know in America that
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talks to our customer for two hours
every day on the radio, so he's very in
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tune with the customer and the customer
psyche. And so for us as the marketing
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department, he's a great confident or a
great advisor to us in that regard. And
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so yeah, we pride ourselves on being a
marketing first company who creates
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transformative media, it's not just
Dave you know, and the other, we have,
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you know, a handful of other
personalities, we've got our first full
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length documentary coming out in 10
days about the student loan debt crisis
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in America, which is just crazy right
now. $33 trillion I think in in debt.
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It's incredible. Full link to our
documentary that we made. You know,
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we've got other projects like that
coming in the years to come because we
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do view ourselves as media makers and
not just product makers at the same
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time, my specific division is heavily
in the digital products space because
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we do see that as the future of this
brand is that we have the media out
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there in the marketplace, creating
those first connections and the
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emotional touch points with people
where we move them into from a
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transformational standpoint is into
digital products and that's ultimately
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what we think the long term future is,
is the way we connect media and
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personality to product kind of long
term. Yeah, I mean when I saw Dave
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Ramsey start to get into like the sash
and recurring revenue model was like,
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oh, watch out like he's going to start
blowing up because the recurring
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revenue model is just so powerful and
being able to just do normal things
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like forecast and then budget according
to an accurate forecast. That makes the
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difference when you're trying to grow.
So I'm excited about the continued
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growth at Ramsey is about to see, I
know within your marketing teams, you
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guys don't just organize according
according your your your teams
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according to specialties, but before we
dive into the specialties, like kind of
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give me an idea of like how you're
marking, departments are structured and
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then with the specialties, um, teams at
the bottom. So we sort of have two
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lines of marketing function. We have
business unit marketing, which are is
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designed to be a more of a generalist
marketer who can come in understand the
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needs of the business, the functions of
the product, the voice of the customer
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for that specific product line. Um in a
lot of ways they function sort of like
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a product manager would function just
on the marketing side of the equation.
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And then we have specialty marketers
within the building. So going to your,
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you know, you and I have talked owner
and paid before, so content strategist,
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content marketers. S ceos paid media
buyers cros specialist, which is the
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newest discipline we've added in the
last two years since I've been here,
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which is, which is awesome. So we're
running split tests, pretty much 24
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hours a day, seven days a week across
the scope of our funnel. Um so you have
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those channel specialists and those
businesses and marketers and it's sort
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of like we understand the customer, we
understand the business needs, we
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understand the problems are product
solves, we understand the go to market
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strategy and then they partner with
those channel specialists who then come
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in and say we understand the channel,
we understand the tactics, we
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understand the bid strategies, we
understand, you know schema markup in S.
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E. O. So those groups put their heads
together and the best way for us to go
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and problem solve this objective with
these key results is to do X, Y and Z.
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So it's a real partnering kind of
symbiotic relationship from a strategic
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thinking standpoint. Um And then when
we're ready to deliver the work that
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we've dreamed up, we actually use a
squad model kind of from the Inspired
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empowered world from marty Kagan from
Silicon Valley product group. Great
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book series. If you have something you
want to read. And those two books um to
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where those these groups almost
function like internal little many
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agencies inside of the one business
unit that they now serve as a fully
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dedicated resource to drive that
businesses. Gold channel specialist,
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generalist marketer and then writer
designer or two writers to designers
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and an engineer so that they can
actually build a so they can idea to
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solution and then deliver it to the
market and then iterate from there.
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Yeah. So did I hear a right that you
have about 78 people on one squad. Yeah
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it's a really depends on I would say
that's a healthy squad that that would
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be ideal. Do we have some squads that
are smaller and one or two that might
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be a little bit bigger. Yeah but you
tend to want to try and have you know
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one generalist market whose function is
what we would call the request manager.
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So they're driving the work and then
you're gonna have a couple of writers,
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one might be long form and one might be
a copywriter, you're gonna have a
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couple of designers, one might be a
little more U. X. And one might might
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be a little more production driven like
you know kind of ads and and that sort
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of kind of creative and then you're
gonna and I are within some of my teams
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we have dedicated engineers and some of
our teams the engineering work is so
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light that they use an engineering pool
like a hat team like how the available
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team and then they pull them in when
they need to so yeah 5 to 8 people kind
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of working together to solve a problem
together from a multidisciplinary
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approach to the to the problem. So
that's fascinating. How long did the
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team stay together? Do they just stay
together through the one project and
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then disband or do they kind of do you
have like you give them names and they
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take on multiple projects? We've tried
it a couple of different ways in the
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last two years since we went to went to
this model. This squad squad centric
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setup is about two years old. The
Matrix has been here for a while but
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that squad delivery system kind of the
actual marketing approaches a couple
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years old. Um I would say this year we
committed to the durability of the
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squads. So what I mean by that is we
might change what objective they work
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on but we rarely want to change who's
working with who so that they can
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develop really great chemistry and
learn to work well together and drive
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to those problems. So we haven't made
any squad level adjustments personnel
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wise this entire calendar year, even
though we've changed objectives, you
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know, four or five times. Gosh, that
sounds amazing. It kind of sounds like
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you have the nimbleness of a, like a
startup marketing team, right? I mean I
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know my marketing team is about four or
five people on my hiring a few more but
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we'll be nimble, we'll be able to move
fast because I'll have all those
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disciplines represented because there's
not a huge organization but you guys
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gotta have it the best of both that way
I would say as the leader of the bunch,
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I probably always wish we'd go a little
faster but but I would say the key
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driver that we have seen this year is
buying and until you really have buy in
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from the people on the teams, there's
always there's always room for there to
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be a nay Sayer in the group who's like,
well that was never going to work in
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the first place. And so by forcing that
camaraderie and that collegial kind of
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approach to the work, we are driving a
high level of buying with the teams
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where they take ownership over the
things they commit to, which is what I
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want, five days a week. I want people
to really feel it in their bones, like
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I agree with the work I'm bought into
the work, we're going to deliver the
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work and it's either going to work or
it's not and we're gonna own it every
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step of the way. And we have seen that
from our team since we've been to this
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model, which I think is a powerful
force for momentum, within a team,
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who's the leader of the group, is it
outside the group or eternal embedded
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right now? You know, we kind of have
that sort of where the senior marketer
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sits within my structure, within my
team at least. Um, you know, somebody
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that's got some got some years on them,
they, they kind of, they understand the
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customer, they understand the product,
they understand history and they also
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understand forecasting and they were
able to still then ask great questions
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and listen well to their team members
that do great research, talk to the
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customer of the prospect, you know, we
were big proponents of user testing, uh,
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you know, various things before you
launch it and doing focus groups and
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things of that nature, definitely
running multi variant tests as many
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times as you possibly can so that I
would say they're the holder of the
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opinion that kind of but I would say
it's a pretty loose grasp at the end of
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the day. The data is gonna manifest
exactly where it is. We're supposed to
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go and opinions can stay to the side.
But yeah there is a drawstring, we do
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have a drawstring approach where I
think this is always saying this way
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it's kind of like a vulgar thing but
like the phrase is a single readable
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neck like we have a single renewable
neck kind of strategy and it's just the
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idea of like who are we going to if
there's an issue and and they all know
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who that is at the same time though.
They sit, they sit together, they talk
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together you know they're held
accountable together. So yeah they're
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group has buy in which I think again is
a competitive advantage that a lot of
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companies should want their teams that
have in the work that they're doing.
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Hey everybody Logan with sweet fish
here if you're a regular listener of
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GDP growth, you know that I'm one of
the co hosts of the show but you may
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not know that I also head up the sales
team here at sweet fish. So for those
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of you in sales or sales ops I wanted
to take a second to share something
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00:15:19.550 --> 00:15:24.010
that's made us insanely more efficient
lately Our team has been using lead I.
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00:15:24.010 --> 00:15:27.920
Q. For the past few months. And what
used to take us four hours gathering
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00:15:27.920 --> 00:15:33.460
contact data now takes us only one
where 75% more efficient were able to
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move faster with outbound prospecting
and organizing our campaigns is so much
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00:15:38.300 --> 00:15:42.660
easier than before. I'd highly suggest
you guys check out lead I. Q. As well.
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You can check them out at least I. Q.
Dot com. That's L. E A D. I. Q. Dot com.
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All right let's get back to the show.
So that guy or a girl is a generalist
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marketer. Sam. And what is that person?
Usually a manager or director? That's a
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great question and I'm not sure we
actually talked about this much in the
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pre interview but it's not a people
leadership position. So each one of the
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people that are in their groups has an
art director or you know a. D. Of
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content or a channel specialty leader
that they get their people leadership
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from its a work product leadership
position. So there are a manager of the
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output of the group but they're not
going to be doing one on ones personnel
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wise with the people that are in their
squads. So we don't create that dynamic
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within the group. All that dynamic
stays with we kind of have a coaching
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model that we use with our mid senior
level where they're like our A. D.
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Level positions on our team are really
designed to be people leaders and
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coaches more than anything else? They
don't do any work, they don't do any
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production level work. And so that
frees the request manager up to kind of
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kind of both keep the squad committed
to what they're doing um in partnership
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with project management, which we would
call a delivery manager and this model
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and then they can stay out in front of
the squad of going where we're going
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next, where we're going next, where
we're going and when that proves itself
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out where we're going next. So that is
a great clarifying questions. Not a
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people leadership position, it's a work
leadership position. Gotcha. So are
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they the tiebreaker if two different
disciplines within that team are
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arguing over this way or that way, I
would say sometimes I'm the type record.
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But for the most part, if they really
get landlocked, I would have a higher
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expectation on the generalist to speak
up and say this is I'm going to make
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the call, I'm the one that's going to
go into what we use a meeting structure
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called a stakeholder meeting, which is
basically where the the generalists
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bring in their body of work that they
intend to do for the next commitment
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cycle, seven days, 10 days or whatever
it is. And that's a chance for myself
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and the other leaders to say have a
question about that, why, why why that
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not this or you know, how do you guys
arrive at that conclusion? And so and
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so forth. So since they're the ones
that have to own that room, they tend
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to get to be the tiebreaking voice. It
makes a lot of sense to me, it almost
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sounds somewhere between a project
manager and a marketing director, kind
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of somewhere in there. It's an
interesting role. It is and someone
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who's actually just really good at
creating buy in for people. So people
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really good people strength. Yeah,
that's right. Really great listeners do
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well in this role because they are in a
way driving and leading a group of
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people that they don't leave directly.
You know, they're not responsible for
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leading directly. So they have to be
really committed to the well being of
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the group, while also being responsible
for the ultimate in product that we're
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trying to drive, which in this case,
you know, one case might be a free
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trial start or the download,
downloading of an app or a lead based
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business to set up a call for a sales
team, so and so forth. So yeah, it's
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it's a very different model. It's again,
because we're in the digital product
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space, this is the way we do product
management and development here. So
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that's kind of where the model was
birthed out of and we want to keep
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teams on similar meetings and, you know,
we're finding success with it. And it's
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one of those things that were sort of
tinkering with all the time because the,
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the biggest wildcard in all of it is
the people of dynamics, of the people
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that you stick together within a group.
And so, um, you know, that is something
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that, you know, we don't necessarily
have all of our groups jelling the way
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we like all the time, but it's
something that, you know, marketing
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leadership, project management,
leadership, engineering, leadership,
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maker level, kind of a designer writer
level leadership, we would all be
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monitoring and working on together to
make sure that the squad is set up as
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best you can to succeed. You mentioned
a little bit ago about how you manage
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projects or that you're taking short
sprints or workloads for a time. Tell
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us a little bit more about there are
project management philosophy and how
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you organize that with these squads. So
we, we use an agile and agile
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methodology combined, uh, from a system
standpoint, jurors are actual project
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management platform per se. And so the
squads work in what has been dubbed
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roles in cadences. And so essentially,
uh, their cadence meeting structure is
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they do ideation where they kind of
come together as a group and say what's
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the best way for us to solve this next
problem that we have, then, you know,
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once the ideas is committed to and
everybody's on board is a valid idea
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that we think is actually gonna deliver
the value, we want the marketplace,
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they commit. Once they commit, they
decamped the work and decamping the
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word, breaking it down into bite size
pieces so they could see how long the
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delivery schedule is going to be to get
the work done and then they come into a
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delivery schedule and then they deliver
and then they retro after that, how did
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it work? You know, what worked, what
didn't do we get the impact we wanted
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to be not those cycles could be two
days long, that, that could all be two
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days. If it's, if it's one size of work,
it could also be three weeks if it's a
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big body of work. And so I will say at
times when we find work that, so let's
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say one of my groups might have 33
objectives at one time, which means
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they have three squads, each working on
a different objective. It might be that
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we find out in a stakeholder meeting,
that this second squad overhears third
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or fourth action that they want to
drive to their objective is actually
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more beneficial to the business than
the first. The second action that this
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other squad wants to drive. So that
cross communication of like what's the
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next most important thing, we need to
be working on a drive impact for the
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business is key in this model and then,
and so sometimes when that comes up,
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what might happen is, is the squad's
might all decide to stop their own
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commitments, cycles for a week and
actually coming together and sprint for
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a week on one big delivery item, you
know, a new set of landing pages are an
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entirely new funnel and we want to
reshape this entire funnel in a week.
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So we're gonna put six designers, four
riders going, everyone go all hands on
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it and friday we're going to deliver,
but we leave were as leadership, we
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stay pretty open handed with that
unless some sort of an external force
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or a deadline or something have a
market dynamic shifts and we kind of
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have to happen to it. We'd rather see
the teams bubble that information up
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from within when they see those
opportunities and they're still
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learning and we're still learning it
because again, we've only been doing it
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for a couple of years now. I've been
throwing a lot of curveballs at years.
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I have a lot of questions that are, I
didn't even have another question list.
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But when I'm thinking about the
implications of all these things, one
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of the things that comes to my mind
that might be difficult, nuanced as
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marketing operations, especially around
marketing automation? Like how are
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teams approaching some of the more
sophisticated hurdles of like your
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marketing automation streams first?
What text act do you use to deliver
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those kinds of things? And then how how
do teams approach marketing ops do you
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have a separate marketing ops team or
is like do squads kind of take turns
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and handling marketing apps? You found
the fly in the ointment with that
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question I would say sort of your
baseline level. Like if you always have
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groups that are only focused on
innovation and not operation, you run
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the risk of like, oh no, that thing
that's just been running for six months,
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nobody's been watching it and here's
what happened. So I would say kind of
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evergreen marketing Ops is is a call
out for us that I would imagine our
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next iteration of this, we end up with
the team who is dedicated to the
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chassis while the other teams are
dedicated to the add ons, if that makes
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sense. It's kind of the best way I can
think of in my head. So with that being
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said, we also have different chassis.
So I have B two B teams and I have the
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D. C. Team. So the dtC teams, you know,
they're using Claudio is the primary sp,
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you know, we're using salesforce from a,
from a Crm standpoint. And then on the
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B two B side we have things like part
of plug ins and and other things that
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are going on um as well as you know,
sales loft and all kind of other text
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tax stuff on the sales side. So we have
a couple of people that are dedicated,
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you know, admit like Salesforce
administrators or you know, kind of
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Martek personnel that sit with us that
actually tends to be a global resource
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at Ramsey though, they're the ones that
are kind of the most global, so they
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act more as consultative than they do
anything else and they keep the
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system's going. But we, we are even
looking at one of my generalist
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marketers right now who just has a bent
to ops and a bent to analytics, who is
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not necessarily the creative marketing
type that say maybe you me like those
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of us that are wired a little more that
way, like kind of the campaign driven,
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what do we want to say? How do we want
them to feel? He's not wired that way.
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So we're actually looking at creating
like an operation slash analyst
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position where he can focus more on the
chassis and keeping the system's going
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um, so that the other markers can, can
build on top of what's there. So
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marketing ops is one of those things in
the agile model that we have to account
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for and we haven't necessarily
accounted for all that well because
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we're trying to constantly spin up new
things in the squads. Um, that's a
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great question man, I mean it's really
hard, especially in an organization,
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the size of yours, I'm sure your
salesforce instance is ridiculous and
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complicated with as many business units
as you have. Um, and it's become hard
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to figure out like okay, like is this a
devops thing or is this a marketing ops
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thing, the lines start to get really
blurry sometimes. Right. I know. Even
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with my small teams of which my best
dev marketing person, you guys just
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recently hired um to do C R O of all
things. But he's uh like, I don't know,
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I felt like my marketing team started
taking on more and more of what most
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people would just call devops because
we were just more heavy in automation
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and crm management space. But man, I
know it's a harry harry thing. What
385
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have you seen as a result of this
reorganization and you've been there a
386
00:25:12.620 --> 00:25:16.690
few years now, you've been able to see
a lot of these transitions through, has
387
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it been good? Are you are you a big fan
of this way of managing people? If so
388
00:25:22.300 --> 00:25:25.280
like, well first I'll let you answer
that question. How what do the results
389
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been for you? Yeah, I see. There's two
primary things that have satisfied that,
390
00:25:30.750 --> 00:25:35.190
that are very satisfying to me and I
full transparency. I was not on board
391
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at first when this started, I couldn't
see it, it's just not the way I was
392
00:25:39.110 --> 00:25:43.340
used to working um and you know, my
good friends in tech and product and
393
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project management, like just giving
them in like give it some time, you
394
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know, let's get there. It's going to be,
we have to work through it. So let me
395
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that's that's the point of clarity.
Before I start, I would say the two
396
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primary main benefits I've seen is a
centralized ownership of the key
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metrics of the business living with
more than one person and it sounds a
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little backwards to what I said earlier.
But I've genuinely see seen the squads
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start to really believe that they owned
the metrics which is a powerful thing
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when people are coming and going like
especially in our business because you
401
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know we say all the time, we exist for
the people that are outside these walls
402
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that if you help with other people get
what they want, you never have to worry
403
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about money. Like we want to serve
people here and so for them to be able
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to connect the metrics of if we move
this number, this family has this life
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change that happens outside these walls
like guys we got to move this number
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like it's important so being able to
see that connection of data to like
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real world impact and the squad's
owning that together is incredible. And
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I would say the other benefit that
we've got from this is just incredibly
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clearer lines of communication between
leadership all the way down to what we
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would call here kind of the maker level
or at the production level where work
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is actually going out. It's forced us
because we have those set times of
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stakeholder times as meeting rhythms,
it's, we used to be the type,
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especially me walk the floor pop up
beside a cube and go do this, you know,
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And now you just skipped seven kind of
set lines, communication. And somebody
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here is like why do we do that? Well,
it's because someone so said and so by
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funneling everything into that
stakeholder rhythm that room where it's
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like this is when you get to speak up
or not. It's holding our leadership
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00:27:20.070 --> 00:27:23.780
layer even more accountable one to
another to make sure that we're all
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00:27:23.780 --> 00:27:27.260
bought in, invisible in the work that
we've said yes to. And more importantly,
420
00:27:27.260 --> 00:27:32.330
that means the work we're saying no to,
which is a part of the system that you
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00:27:32.330 --> 00:27:36.080
always have to account for it. Like we
can only, we only get so many yeses. So
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00:27:36.080 --> 00:27:39.150
let's use our yes as well every time we
get on that. So there's been the two
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00:27:39.150 --> 00:27:42.400
big events, you know, connecting data
to the marketplace in a good way and
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just clear lines of communication,
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00:27:44.940 --> 00:27:49.000
ma'am. It's so good to hear as someone
who's kind of grown up in marketing and
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00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:52.380
digital marketing. And one of the
things I found is just that it's just
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00:27:52.380 --> 00:27:56.710
so complicated. It's sophisticated.
There's a lot more complexity to
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00:27:56.710 --> 00:28:01.090
marketing than just running campaigns
now that it's good to see an
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00:28:01.090 --> 00:28:07.640
organization whose scaling it well and
I can see your hesitation with it
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00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:10.850
because it seems more complex even and
how you organize teams, you're like
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00:28:10.860 --> 00:28:14.120
usually simple is better, right? And we
gravitate towards simple because we
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00:28:14.120 --> 00:28:17.350
usually know if it's simple, the
likelihood that it's going to work the
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00:28:17.350 --> 00:28:21.180
way we expected to is going to work.
But at the same time, marketing has
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00:28:21.180 --> 00:28:24.210
been thrown for a loop and how
complicated it's gotten with all the
435
00:28:24.210 --> 00:28:29.170
technology mixed in with, I don't know
the amount of little tiny pieces that
436
00:28:29.170 --> 00:28:32.470
need to be right otherwise one wrong
piece and the whole thing, like a whole
437
00:28:32.470 --> 00:28:36.440
campaign could be messed up. Right?
That's right. And, and I would tell you
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00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:40.520
dan, you know, uh, you know, one of our
primary, um, marketplaces that we've
439
00:28:40.520 --> 00:28:44.600
served for years and years, years has
always been the nonprofit space in the
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00:28:44.600 --> 00:28:48.540
church space, you know, with some of
our products And obviously with COVID
441
00:28:48.540 --> 00:28:51.390
last year in the pandemic happening.
And rightfully so, you know, the doors
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00:28:51.390 --> 00:28:55.400
shuttering and people, people's social
distancing and that the church has been
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00:28:55.400 --> 00:28:59.420
one of those places that has not
necessarily quote unquote recovery. It
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00:28:59.420 --> 00:29:02.840
certainly hasn't gone back to the way
it was 24 months ago. And I would tell
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00:29:02.840 --> 00:29:06.840
you like having our approach and having
changed our model and the way we do
446
00:29:06.840 --> 00:29:10.990
work shortly before that happened, I'm
not sure we would have been able to
447
00:29:10.990 --> 00:29:14.330
pivot as quickly as we were able to
pivot last year, when that happened
448
00:29:14.340 --> 00:29:17.910
with this model compared to the model
that we were, that we were in 2.5 years
449
00:29:17.910 --> 00:29:22.280
ago. So I actually see there's a lot of
providence in foresight and benefit
450
00:29:22.280 --> 00:29:25.570
that we got out of that and being able
to be agile and quick when market
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00:29:25.570 --> 00:29:29.220
dynamics change that. We might not have
been afforded the opportunity to be the
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00:29:29.220 --> 00:29:33.710
year before. So kind of last question
at least last official question I might
453
00:29:33.710 --> 00:29:37.190
ask more. How how does someone get
started with this the way you guys have
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00:29:37.190 --> 00:29:41.330
your marketing teams organized like
what size would you say you need to be
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00:29:41.330 --> 00:29:45.710
in order to start having the approach
with the squads. Can you started with
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00:29:45.710 --> 00:29:49.440
it right away. Do you just start off
with a this is squad one and then once
457
00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:52.390
you get a certain size you had another
one. How do you do it? That's how we
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00:29:52.390 --> 00:29:56.360
did it. We started with minimum we call
minimum viable squad journalist,
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00:29:56.360 --> 00:30:01.180
marketer. Writer designer because with
our with our CMS that we use, if you
460
00:30:01.180 --> 00:30:04.670
have those pieces, you can actually
deploy landing pages, you can deploy
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00:30:04.670 --> 00:30:08.770
blog articles, you can deploy ads, you
can deploy a lot of emails, you can
462
00:30:08.770 --> 00:30:12.580
deploy a lot of the tactical things
that you would need to be able to ship
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00:30:12.590 --> 00:30:16.400
in order to drive value for the
customer value for the business. And so
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00:30:16.410 --> 00:30:21.020
minimum viable squad to me is that it's
generalist market or writer designer. I
465
00:30:21.020 --> 00:30:26.560
think that if you should do it or not
really depends on if you want a how
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00:30:26.560 --> 00:30:31.250
much trust that you have in those
people and just being transparent if
467
00:30:31.250 --> 00:30:35.020
you've got good season two people in
those seats who understand the customer
468
00:30:35.030 --> 00:30:39.930
understand the business objectives. Um,
and and are great at being drivers are
469
00:30:39.930 --> 00:30:44.000
wired a certain way. I would say go for
it. I would say not everyone that we've
470
00:30:44.000 --> 00:30:46.750
used in this model has thrived in this
model either. And I think that's an
471
00:30:46.750 --> 00:30:50.820
important thing to call out is there
are some, uh, and not everywhere in
472
00:30:50.820 --> 00:30:53.920
Ramsey uses the model that I'm using
specifically within digital products
473
00:30:53.920 --> 00:30:57.000
either. So that's also important to
call out. And so I think you have to
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00:30:57.000 --> 00:31:00.760
understand the wiring of the personnel
as to if the squad model might work.
475
00:31:00.940 --> 00:31:04.750
But again, a great place to start
exploring these concepts is to read the
476
00:31:04.750 --> 00:31:09.110
two books inspired and empowered by the
same author. That's where the squad
477
00:31:09.110 --> 00:31:12.400
model is kind of burned out. Once you
get an inspired team, you're inspired
478
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:15.000
by the customer, you understand the
problem, you're trying to solve an
479
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:18.620
empowered team is when they've matured
into being an autonomous group that can
480
00:31:18.620 --> 00:31:22.530
run objectives down at will. And so
that's, I would say we're somewhere
481
00:31:22.530 --> 00:31:25.670
between the two right now, we have some
groups that are a little more empowered
482
00:31:25.670 --> 00:31:30.220
than others. But again, it's the makeup
of the squad that it's the trust level.
483
00:31:30.230 --> 00:31:34.300
Honestly with that, that senior market
or kind of hybrid seat of like their
484
00:31:34.300 --> 00:31:37.340
maturity that they bring to the table,
how much business they've done, how
485
00:31:37.340 --> 00:31:40.730
much marketing they've done, that's a
key factor. But I think if you've got
486
00:31:40.730 --> 00:31:44.750
three trustworthy people, you can start
the squad model right away and work on
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00:31:44.760 --> 00:31:48.080
shorter delivery cycles, trying to
draft iterative impact in the
488
00:31:48.080 --> 00:31:52.240
marketplace instead of 18 month
planning rhythms, which is kind of what
489
00:31:52.240 --> 00:31:55.520
my background was before I got here.
You know, you gotta, you gotta always
490
00:31:55.520 --> 00:31:58.950
have these forecasts and everything
like ship the work and see if it has
491
00:31:58.950 --> 00:32:01.880
the impact that you thought it has and
then it's so shit more and if it
492
00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:06.530
doesn't pivot and so that's the that
that that agility, that nimbleness that
493
00:32:06.530 --> 00:32:08.980
we talked about the beginning, like
it's a really powerful thing to give
494
00:32:08.980 --> 00:32:12.990
the team if you want to see them grow
and really unlock new things that they
495
00:32:12.990 --> 00:32:16.720
didn't think they could do. Fantastic.
And I will certainly linked to those
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00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:21.150
books in the show notes. But thank you
so much for joining me on B2B growth
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00:32:21.150 --> 00:32:24.480
today. Um where can people go to learn
more from you and learn more about
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00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:28.270
Ramsey online. Yeah, just connect with
me on linkedin. That's my favorite and
499
00:32:28.270 --> 00:32:31.470
only social media channel. I'm on the
others. But anyways, to create a lot of
500
00:32:31.470 --> 00:32:34.870
content on there. Like to write about
leadership in digital marketing and for
501
00:32:34.870 --> 00:32:37.910
me personally, uh, you know, faith at
work, I think it's a big part of my
502
00:32:37.910 --> 00:32:41.220
life and you can always find out more
at Ramsey by going to Ramsey solutions
503
00:32:41.220 --> 00:32:45.310
dot com. And uh if you have any
questions let me know, we'd love to
504
00:32:45.310 --> 00:32:47.470
help you. If there's any way we can
partner together, whether it's
505
00:32:47.470 --> 00:32:52.140
personally with your finances or if you
want to look at having uh you know, say
506
00:32:52.150 --> 00:32:55.170
an employee benefit added to your HR
line up for your team to be able to
507
00:32:55.170 --> 00:32:58.380
manage their money better. We'd love to
help. Fantastic. Thanks again for
508
00:32:58.380 --> 00:33:00.160
joining me on GDP Growth. Thanks dan,
509
00:33:03.040 --> 00:33:04.060
mm. Mhm
510
00:33:05.740 --> 00:33:09.940
At Sweet Fish. We're on a mission to
create the most helpful content on the
511
00:33:09.940 --> 00:33:14.510
internet for every job function and
industry on the planet for the B two B
512
00:33:14.510 --> 00:33:18.550
marketing industry. This show is how
we're executing on that mission. If you
513
00:33:18.550 --> 00:33:22.020
know a marketing leader that would be
an awesome guest for this podcast.
514
00:33:22.030 --> 00:33:25.580
Shoot me a text message. Don't call me
because I don't answer unknown numbers
515
00:33:25.590 --> 00:33:32.080
but text me at 4074 and I know 33 to 8,
Just shoot me their name may be a link
516
00:33:32.080 --> 00:33:36.020
to their linkedin profile and I'd love
to check them out to see if we can get
517
00:33:36.030 --> 00:33:38.960
them on the show. Thanks a lot