How the Bottom Up Adoption Model Contributes to a Long-Lasting Brand

WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.140 --> 00:00:00.340 Yeah. 2 00:00:05.740 --> 00:00:09.830 Hey everyone welcome back to be, to be growth. My name is Olivia Hurley and 3 00:00:09.830 --> 00:00:13.710 today I'm joined by Joni wang who is the director of marketing and brand at 4 00:00:13.710 --> 00:00:19.170 expense if I Tony, how are you doing today? Hey Libya, It's great to be here. 5 00:00:19.170 --> 00:00:25.060 Thanks for having me on. How about you? I'm doing super. I'm glad it's, it's 6 00:00:25.070 --> 00:00:31.680 close to the weekend. Um, johnny, you and your team at expense. If I have 7 00:00:31.680 --> 00:00:36.330 really flipped around some traditional marketing strategies and have taken on 8 00:00:36.340 --> 00:00:42.660 a bottom up adoption model. Um, I'm super curious of the, why, what, how 9 00:00:42.660 --> 00:00:47.980 when of that? But I'm also really interested in talking to you about how 10 00:00:47.980 --> 00:00:52.720 you've supercharged this bottom up adoption model with a vision for 11 00:00:52.720 --> 00:00:59.830 building a long lasting brand. Um, can we, can you tell me what a bottom up 12 00:00:59.830 --> 00:01:02.660 adoption model is and what it looks like it expense if I 13 00:01:03.740 --> 00:01:08.380 yeah, definitely. Um, so to jump right in uh, expensive eyes customer 14 00:01:08.380 --> 00:01:12.210 acquisition model, what we call it a bottom up adoption model. And basically, 15 00:01:12.220 --> 00:01:16.840 it means, rather than focusing on the top of funnel the decision makers, the 16 00:01:16.840 --> 00:01:21.100 people buying the software, we focus on building our product for the end user, 17 00:01:21.100 --> 00:01:25.060 the people who are experiencing the pain point that could include Hagman's 18 00:01:25.060 --> 00:01:29.650 as well. But generally it would mean for expense management company that we 19 00:01:29.650 --> 00:01:33.980 focus on the people who are trying to reconcile their expenses, who are 20 00:01:33.980 --> 00:01:37.740 traveling, who are buying things on behalf of their company. And so when we 21 00:01:37.740 --> 00:01:42.130 say that we have a bottom of adoption model, it means that we are creating a 22 00:01:42.130 --> 00:01:46.600 product for that end user, making sure that it addresses their pain points and 23 00:01:46.610 --> 00:01:52.470 ensuring that all of entering that they're able to adopt our product 24 00:01:52.480 --> 00:01:58.760 regardless of if they're admin ends up buying or not. I'm curious why did 25 00:01:58.760 --> 00:02:04.560 Spence if I expensive I take that approach. Yeah. So, you know, typically 26 00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:09.180 at most b to B companies, you focus on the decision maker, right? They're the 27 00:02:09.180 --> 00:02:15.130 ones who signed the contracts and um Procure Software and find solutions for 28 00:02:15.140 --> 00:02:20.260 in order to reconcile their books or whatever the business objective is. And 29 00:02:20.260 --> 00:02:26.300 so what we realized uh were two things was one it's much more powerful to 30 00:02:26.310 --> 00:02:29.750 create a product for the person who's actually using it because they're 31 00:02:29.760 --> 00:02:33.340 because they're the ones who are actually using it, they do have an 32 00:02:33.340 --> 00:02:37.030 impact on what gets adopted, right? Because at the end of the day, the goal 33 00:02:37.030 --> 00:02:41.950 is to get all that data, put it into your accounting software and do it as 34 00:02:41.950 --> 00:02:45.950 quickly as possible and as efficiently as possible. And so what we wanted to 35 00:02:45.950 --> 00:02:52.120 do was so one um that's kind of the focus and then of course there are way 36 00:02:52.120 --> 00:02:59.620 more employees at a company just from a numbers perspective versus decision 37 00:02:59.630 --> 00:03:04.270 decision makers. Right. And so if you're able to um approach every single 38 00:03:04.270 --> 00:03:08.620 one of these individuals and monetize them and have them be basically a 39 00:03:08.620 --> 00:03:11.520 champion or buyer of your product, then all of a sudden you have a lot more 40 00:03:11.530 --> 00:03:17.920 entry points in uh in terms of creating adaptability in of your product in that 41 00:03:17.920 --> 00:03:22.600 company. And so from um even from our origins, that expense, if I, you know, 42 00:03:22.600 --> 00:03:26.960 we've always been, you know, a mobile app, we launched just after Apple 43 00:03:26.970 --> 00:03:32.910 released their camera feature. And so a lot of it has to do with enabling the 44 00:03:32.910 --> 00:03:37.220 person experiencing the problem to be able to find solutions that can solve 45 00:03:37.220 --> 00:03:41.160 that for them. Yeah, well I am a huge fan of you know, putting agency in the 46 00:03:41.160 --> 00:03:45.880 hands of employees, so I think that's so cool. So I'm curious though, just to 47 00:03:45.880 --> 00:03:49.790 somebody who's not intimately familiar with the bottom of adoption, how is 48 00:03:49.790 --> 00:03:55.130 this different from standard marketing procedure? It means that even though we 49 00:03:55.130 --> 00:04:00.460 are a B two B product, we have a B to C marketing strategy. Right? And so 50 00:04:00.940 --> 00:04:04.980 that's why you'll see, you know, our campaigns are geared towards the 51 00:04:04.980 --> 00:04:10.700 consumer, the end user, you know, the people who are around you, who are 52 00:04:10.700 --> 00:04:15.000 experiencing everyday life versus specific people with a specific 53 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:19.839 function. So that's why we were able to, for example, launch a Super Bowl ad 54 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:25.580 campaign that featured, you know, a hip hop music video. We created our own 55 00:04:25.580 --> 00:04:31.660 soundtrack. Uh, and we created an entire experience around that. And um, 56 00:04:31.670 --> 00:04:36.100 versus, you know, having something a little bit more typical of what you 57 00:04:36.100 --> 00:04:41.870 might expect from expense management software on a BdP product. Did that 58 00:04:41.870 --> 00:04:47.440 just on the marketing team did not allow for creativity to abound because 59 00:04:47.440 --> 00:04:52.070 you weren't strictly marketing to decision makers, but rather this BBC 60 00:04:52.070 --> 00:04:57.860 play absolutely what it enabled us to do with kind of think outside the box 61 00:04:57.870 --> 00:05:02.630 of, you know, what are we as a product really trying to do? And, you know, we 62 00:05:02.630 --> 00:05:06.650 were working with our internal team as well as an external agency and we were 63 00:05:06.650 --> 00:05:12.120 thinking, what is again, what is the pain point we're trying to solve, right? 64 00:05:12.130 --> 00:05:15.640 And where we landed on at the time, our campaign model, for example, was like 65 00:05:15.650 --> 00:05:20.730 the idea of you weren't born to do expenses. And so that really, you know, 66 00:05:20.740 --> 00:05:25.120 even that slogan in itself really focused on anybody, right? Because no 67 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:29.760 one really was born to do expenses, expensive stock you want to spend as 68 00:05:29.760 --> 00:05:35.220 little time as possible in that. And with that kind of slogan and you know, 69 00:05:35.230 --> 00:05:39.200 brand message, we were able to kind of think completely outside of the box 70 00:05:39.200 --> 00:05:43.420 because all of a sudden the audience we were addressing was anybody who had 71 00:05:43.420 --> 00:05:47.620 this problem versus a very small steps that and we were able to get creative 72 00:05:47.630 --> 00:05:53.610 super creative, I love that I had a extremely brief tenure in a position 73 00:05:53.610 --> 00:05:58.630 right out of college where I was in charge of expenses and resolving and 74 00:05:58.630 --> 00:06:03.140 you know, budget and things like that and I will say brief because I hated it 75 00:06:03.140 --> 00:06:07.390 so deeply, it was this like you know, a very scary thing to have to manage, but 76 00:06:07.390 --> 00:06:11.280 also I feel like I don't know what I'm doing um and having something like that, 77 00:06:11.280 --> 00:06:14.680 I love that you say we are important, too expensive expenses because it not 78 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:18.710 only like you know, puts power in the hands of the people who are doing those 79 00:06:18.710 --> 00:06:23.000 things, but it gives them back so much time and I certainly would have would 80 00:06:23.000 --> 00:06:29.840 have benefited from that. So speaking of that, what are the key ingredients 81 00:06:29.850 --> 00:06:35.640 for a successful bottom up adoption model? Yeah. Um, at the heart of this 82 00:06:35.640 --> 00:06:40.230 model is, you know, getting people excited about your product and getting 83 00:06:40.230 --> 00:06:45.540 people to talk about your product unprompted on their own wherever they 84 00:06:45.540 --> 00:06:47.760 are, right? So it could be in a business meeting, could be at their 85 00:06:47.760 --> 00:06:51.380 company, could also just be, you know, on a weekend when you're hanging out 86 00:06:51.380 --> 00:06:54.570 with your friends and someone's complaining or venting about processes 87 00:06:54.570 --> 00:06:59.540 at work or whatever. Right? And so I think the key ingredient is to, from 88 00:06:59.550 --> 00:07:04.720 BBB standpoint to have a well designed product that's very easy for someone to 89 00:07:04.730 --> 00:07:09.250 pick up and learn and start using. And if you're solving what their problem is. 90 00:07:09.250 --> 00:07:13.100 And in this case for us it was people are spending a ton of time on expenses 91 00:07:13.100 --> 00:07:16.620 at the end of the month when they could be doing something else. They will rave 92 00:07:16.620 --> 00:07:21.100 about it to their friends because you're making their life easier 93 00:07:21.110 --> 00:07:24.660 allowing them to spend more time on whatever it is that they want to do. 94 00:07:25.140 --> 00:07:30.450 And so how did you generate word of mouth at the very beginning? Yeah. 95 00:07:30.460 --> 00:07:35.520 Great question. Um, expense if I basically, we launched our app in the 96 00:07:35.520 --> 00:07:42.260 app store in I think about 2009 or 2010 and that was right after Apple launched, 97 00:07:42.270 --> 00:07:47.400 um, the camera functionality. And so what we were able to do was we built 98 00:07:47.410 --> 00:07:51.020 our app with that camera like smart scan technology. And that was really 99 00:07:51.020 --> 00:07:55.270 what pivoted us instead differentiated us from the rest of the market. At that 100 00:07:55.270 --> 00:07:59.600 time. We were the only ones with an uh an expense app that you can just bring 101 00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:02.810 along on your phone. And what that meant was that you could just take a 102 00:08:02.810 --> 00:08:07.100 picture of your receipt. We will, our OcR technology will read the merchant 103 00:08:07.100 --> 00:08:10.610 date and amount and just automatically categorize that for you so that you 104 00:08:10.610 --> 00:08:16.060 didn't really have to do anything. And that was a difference maker because no 105 00:08:16.060 --> 00:08:21.260 one at the time again had an app. No one we're was able to use OcR too 106 00:08:21.340 --> 00:08:26.530 automate that process. And so I think when, you know, people got sick and 107 00:08:26.530 --> 00:08:31.710 tired of their processes, their super unable to find their own solutions and 108 00:08:31.720 --> 00:08:36.530 we just happened to be super lucky that the app store just came out and they 109 00:08:36.530 --> 00:08:39.980 were promoting, you know what apps were on there and we were one of them. And 110 00:08:39.980 --> 00:08:44.530 so we're kind of quickly spread that way. And as well as just from our users, 111 00:08:44.530 --> 00:08:49.130 right? People who are downloading it, seeing how easy it was to capture their 112 00:08:49.130 --> 00:08:52.080 receipts on the go while they were traveling for business or conferences 113 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:55.650 or things like that. And we just kind of grew like wildfire from there. Oh, 114 00:08:55.650 --> 00:08:59.720 that's awesome. It's so cool. It's so cool to talk to people who are at 115 00:08:59.720 --> 00:09:03.230 companies that were first movers in their space and you're definitely one 116 00:09:03.230 --> 00:09:10.060 of those fuel. That's awesome. How does having such a loyal customer profile on 117 00:09:10.060 --> 00:09:14.230 base? How does that help you with building a long lasting company to? 118 00:09:14.240 --> 00:09:20.200 Yeah, I think every loyal customer you have is essentially, you know, someone 119 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:25.130 who is willing to talk about your product and tell others about it 120 00:09:25.140 --> 00:09:30.040 without us asking, right? And you know, it's much stronger if one of your 121 00:09:30.040 --> 00:09:33.910 friends tells you how great expense if I is versus if I tell you how great 122 00:09:33.910 --> 00:09:36.390 expensive I is, right? Because obviously I work here, so I'm going to 123 00:09:36.390 --> 00:09:41.550 tell you that. Um, and so what we like what kind of went hand in hand with our 124 00:09:41.550 --> 00:09:45.380 bottom up adoption model was this idea of word of mouth we were spreading 125 00:09:45.390 --> 00:09:51.220 because people were excited about what we were able to do and when we were and 126 00:09:51.220 --> 00:09:56.030 what they were able to do with our product without getting permission from, 127 00:09:56.040 --> 00:10:00.560 from whoever it is that their company. Because you could use expensive I for 128 00:10:00.560 --> 00:10:06.600 free and you still can man, that's so cool when you and your team talk about 129 00:10:06.610 --> 00:10:12.010 the components of a long lasting brand and building, building a company that's 130 00:10:12.010 --> 00:10:16.530 made for longevity. What are some of the key things you keep coming back to 131 00:10:16.530 --> 00:10:20.890 that have to be there? Yeah, that's a great question I would say. The first 132 00:10:20.890 --> 00:10:27.730 thing is to really root your brand and your company in the team's core values 133 00:10:27.730 --> 00:10:33.430 and beliefs and what I mean by that is that if you are pushing out a brand 134 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:37.190 that, you know, people don't necessarily align with or that's not 135 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:42.140 natural, then it gets very hard to keep that up over time, Right? So it's a 136 00:10:42.150 --> 00:10:47.370 very simple example of this is, you know, if it's very hot to be a green 137 00:10:47.370 --> 00:10:52.300 company right now, right? But if there is no basis in your company being like 138 00:10:52.310 --> 00:10:56.950 pushing forward green initiatives or being eco friendly, then you'll 139 00:10:56.950 --> 00:11:01.420 probably do it for as long as it's popular, but you're not really, you're 140 00:11:01.420 --> 00:11:05.520 not, but once it's not popular, you're going to stop doing that and then all 141 00:11:05.520 --> 00:11:09.630 of a sudden your image changes, right? And there's no uh, consistency in that 142 00:11:09.630 --> 00:11:13.680 kind of brand and that kind of image. And so when there's inconsistency in a 143 00:11:13.680 --> 00:11:20.920 brand, then you one stop. It's hard to attract super loyal brand followers and 144 00:11:20.920 --> 00:11:25.630 people who love your product and what you stand for. And to, it's really hard 145 00:11:25.640 --> 00:11:29.950 um, to keep the ones that you know, initially did come to your brand as a 146 00:11:29.950 --> 00:11:35.720 result of them believing that you have the same, you know, values. And so I 147 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:39.460 would say, you know, definitely make sure you your internal brand in your 148 00:11:39.470 --> 00:11:43.430 external brand have, you know, they don't have to be 100% the same, but 149 00:11:43.430 --> 00:11:47.690 certainly the, the driving foundational forces should overlap. And then I would 150 00:11:47.690 --> 00:11:54.260 say the second key ingredient is to focus both on evergreen. Um, brand long 151 00:11:54.260 --> 00:12:00.450 term brand concepts as values as well as cultural relativity, right? Because 152 00:12:00.940 --> 00:12:05.030 one will help you forged a strong and consistent identity. Um, that will 153 00:12:05.030 --> 00:12:10.430 naturally draw in like minded consumers and the other cultural relativity will 154 00:12:10.430 --> 00:12:14.930 help you identify points in which your brand, your company can enter the 155 00:12:14.930 --> 00:12:20.690 conversation and be relevant to, you know, what's going on in the world. You 156 00:12:20.690 --> 00:12:26.360 mentioned having the external and the internal brand be built around some of 157 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:30.510 these same tenants, but that they don't have to match exactly are their 158 00:12:30.510 --> 00:12:36.760 processes and systems built into the internal team at expense. If I that 159 00:12:37.240 --> 00:12:42.890 that also had for this long lasting, that also support the long lasting 160 00:12:42.890 --> 00:12:48.560 brand endeavors. Yeah, definitely. Um, I would say that, you know, I'm kind of 161 00:12:48.570 --> 00:12:56.200 preaching well, we do, right. Um, in terms of we have a really strong belief 162 00:12:56.210 --> 00:13:01.310 in creating a human based company, right? And what that means to me is 163 00:13:01.310 --> 00:13:06.780 that you think about a workplace that you want, you know, we spend a lot of 164 00:13:06.780 --> 00:13:11.670 time at work and so you want to think about like What kind of environment do 165 00:13:11.670 --> 00:13:16.620 I want to spend 40 or 50 hours a week at? And what kind of people do I want 166 00:13:16.620 --> 00:13:21.450 to be surrounded by? And what kind of um processes can allow for that, right? 167 00:13:21.460 --> 00:13:26.690 And so, for example, um one of the things that we really push forward is 168 00:13:26.690 --> 00:13:31.240 this idea of a flat organization, so nobody has any ones manager and you can 169 00:13:31.240 --> 00:13:36.290 kind of proposed projects as you are excited that you are excited about that 170 00:13:36.290 --> 00:13:41.610 help our overarching goals. And so that kind of comes from the core belief of, 171 00:13:41.620 --> 00:13:45.720 you know, people get bored if you if you make them do the same thing over 172 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:49.880 and over and over again, right? It's fine if you have a marketing department, 173 00:13:49.880 --> 00:13:54.340 for example where one person does email marketing one person does S. C. 01 174 00:13:54.340 --> 00:13:57.730 person does advertising but at some point they're going to get bored of 175 00:13:57.730 --> 00:14:00.470 that because they're not learning new things, they're not solving new 176 00:14:00.470 --> 00:14:04.470 problems. Um And so they leave right? Because that's the way that your 177 00:14:04.470 --> 00:14:08.700 company is structured. And so the approach we tried to take is to make 178 00:14:08.700 --> 00:14:14.740 sure that people are having interesting things that they can solve or focus on. 179 00:14:14.750 --> 00:14:19.180 Which means that you know we have a pretty flat organization and we also 180 00:14:19.190 --> 00:14:24.060 allow people to kind of hop in between departments so to speak right and kind 181 00:14:24.060 --> 00:14:28.540 of focus on things that may not be what they were originally hired for as long 182 00:14:28.540 --> 00:14:33.140 as it um At the bottom line. Oh man that's so cool. So tell me a little bit 183 00:14:33.140 --> 00:14:37.200 more about that. Are there for the people who are like I've never seen 184 00:14:37.200 --> 00:14:40.670 anything like this. How does this function in actuality? You know? How do 185 00:14:40.670 --> 00:14:46.290 you keep clarity Around responsibilities while also allowing 186 00:14:46.290 --> 00:14:53.940 people to go where their interests lie? Yeah, I think that's so what we do is 187 00:14:53.940 --> 00:14:57.950 we have an internal document called What's next that guides our overarching 188 00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:02.720 vision as well as practical short term milestones. When I say short term, I 189 00:15:02.720 --> 00:15:07.740 mean you know in the next 1-2 years. Right? And so we generally follow this 190 00:15:07.740 --> 00:15:11.670 road map. It's something that everyone in the company agrees on. And if you 191 00:15:11.670 --> 00:15:14.880 don't know what to work on or you don't have an idea, you can always refer to 192 00:15:14.880 --> 00:15:18.370 this document to make and and pick something up. Right? And you know 193 00:15:18.370 --> 00:15:22.450 whether you're you're primarily an engineering or marketing or sales or 194 00:15:22.460 --> 00:15:27.890 whatever it is, there's every component of those functions like our exist in 195 00:15:27.900 --> 00:15:33.940 most projects. And so the one we have that what's next talk to guide the long 196 00:15:33.940 --> 00:15:38.540 term like or the short term, sorry, projects in the next one or two years 197 00:15:38.550 --> 00:15:42.040 and in terms of like figuring out and encouraging people to follow their 198 00:15:42.050 --> 00:15:47.510 interests, there is we have like a mentor program. Right? And so you can 199 00:15:47.510 --> 00:15:51.930 choose your mentors from any department and they will help you focus on your 200 00:15:51.940 --> 00:15:56.410 both personal and professional goals and find ways to tie that together. An 201 00:15:56.420 --> 00:16:01.660 example is my mentor is currently, he's an engineer and he's helping me, you 202 00:16:01.660 --> 00:16:06.270 know, get a little bit more Technic uncle and um you know, holding me 203 00:16:06.270 --> 00:16:10.680 accountable and showing me the resources to learn how to boost sequel, 204 00:16:10.680 --> 00:16:13.850 which will help me quantify our projects a little bit more without 205 00:16:13.850 --> 00:16:17.430 relying have the results of our projects a little bit more, without 206 00:16:17.430 --> 00:16:22.160 necessarily having to rely on an engineer or someone external. And so 207 00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:28.070 there are ways that we definitely encourage people to, you know, expand 208 00:16:28.070 --> 00:16:34.270 beyond their initial um expertise and um encourage them to continue learning 209 00:16:34.270 --> 00:16:39.110 and expanding in areas that they're excited about. That is fascinating. I 210 00:16:39.110 --> 00:16:44.370 love hearing about just taking a very holistic but business driven approach 211 00:16:44.370 --> 00:16:50.440 to the, the environment at work. I think that's one of those things that's 212 00:16:50.440 --> 00:16:56.550 like how did we, how are we, you know, bringing that into the world just now? 213 00:16:56.560 --> 00:17:01.700 But I'm so glad to hear that. Oh man, I just know that anytime anybody allows 214 00:17:01.700 --> 00:17:07.880 me to take ownership of interests and helping the company, I love that it 215 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:15.210 feels like a privilege. So how do you map out goals for such a long term 216 00:17:15.210 --> 00:17:20.680 endeavor of building a company that's that's going to last until forever and 217 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:26.470 ever? Yeah. So one of the things that um we try to do is that with every 218 00:17:26.470 --> 00:17:32.890 product, every iteration, um everything that we build, is it something that we 219 00:17:32.890 --> 00:17:38.190 can continue to build on? Right. So we'll never build, you know, a one off 220 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:44.150 feature that a customer request, if it doesn't, you know, address a pain point 221 00:17:44.150 --> 00:17:49.780 that all a lot of customers have raised and experience. And so what that means 222 00:17:49.790 --> 00:17:54.500 also is for example, um in an applicable way, for example, is when 223 00:17:54.500 --> 00:17:59.350 you think about if you should build an internal tool versus buy it or use a 224 00:17:59.350 --> 00:18:04.580 different software or vendor, whatever it is to solve that problem. And so one 225 00:18:04.580 --> 00:18:10.950 of the ways that we decide is um is if we build this as an internal tool, what 226 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:15.120 else can it help us with beyond the current project or problem that we're 227 00:18:15.120 --> 00:18:18.600 trying to solve? And if it's something that you can continuously layer 228 00:18:18.610 --> 00:18:22.570 additional solutions or if it's a solution that has, that solves many 229 00:18:22.570 --> 00:18:27.560 problems, then that's something that we will um, you know, that will build out 230 00:18:27.570 --> 00:18:31.740 and so that's a very clear and simple way to make sure that everything we're 231 00:18:31.740 --> 00:18:35.840 building, lays the foundation for many next steps and it's not something that 232 00:18:35.840 --> 00:18:40.470 will just abandon or have to change. Um you know, in the next year or so after 233 00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:46.990 that peace is completed, it sounds like one of the, like through lines of so 234 00:18:46.990 --> 00:18:53.070 much of what you do at expensive eyes is is keeping the goal posts the same 235 00:18:53.080 --> 00:19:00.550 and really just like everyone's eyes are on the prize, allowing them to go 236 00:19:00.550 --> 00:19:06.900 deep and and be really involved. Um but also like remembering the initial goal 237 00:19:06.900 --> 00:19:10.010 and not getting like sidelined by various things along the way, which I 238 00:19:10.010 --> 00:19:14.910 think from just what I know is is fairly rare. So that's that's 239 00:19:14.910 --> 00:19:19.880 fascinating and I'm curious what results you've seen from taking that 240 00:19:19.880 --> 00:19:24.360 approach. Yeah, so, you know, on the internal side, you know, kind of 241 00:19:24.530 --> 00:19:28.360 summarizing a lot of the things that we've chatted about, We see a pretty 242 00:19:28.370 --> 00:19:32.520 small turnover in terms of our team, right? And so we're pretty small 243 00:19:32.520 --> 00:19:38.660 company, we're just, I think we're just around 140 people. Um and you know, 244 00:19:38.670 --> 00:19:43.400 we've been here for 10 years and we have a huge customer base and all of 245 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:49.390 that. And so um by minimizing turnover, it means that, you know, we have a team 246 00:19:49.390 --> 00:19:54.460 that is lean that's super focused on the long term vision, but they also 247 00:19:54.460 --> 00:19:58.250 have the context of where we come from and how we build and how we work. And 248 00:19:58.250 --> 00:20:03.320 so rather than having people constantly focused specifically on training, on 249 00:20:03.320 --> 00:20:08.310 boarding and hiring, of course we have that, but that only that suddenly 250 00:20:08.310 --> 00:20:12.460 becomes a fraction of their work versus their entire job repeated over and over 251 00:20:12.460 --> 00:20:16.170 and over again. And then the second result, I think that's easy to point to 252 00:20:16.170 --> 00:20:19.620 is that, you know, because of the way that we think about marketing and we 253 00:20:19.620 --> 00:20:26.420 think about product building, we've been able to build this entire, this 254 00:20:26.420 --> 00:20:31.530 really big word of mouth engine that resulted us really not having to do 255 00:20:31.540 --> 00:20:37.590 what's like traditional marketing. Um for the first like 5 to 10, 5 to 10 256 00:20:37.590 --> 00:20:42.740 years of our of our existence. And because people are excited about this 257 00:20:42.740 --> 00:20:48.180 product, they like it. They talk about us, their friends join those people in 258 00:20:48.180 --> 00:20:51.530 the recycle repeats, right, And that's helped us grow our customer base to 259 00:20:51.530 --> 00:20:59.480 what it is today. Oh, that's fascinating. If if you were to mentor 260 00:20:59.480 --> 00:21:06.550 somebody else who's in charge of implementing a bottom up adoption for a 261 00:21:06.550 --> 00:21:11.490 company that's looking at building a long lasting brand, where would you 262 00:21:11.490 --> 00:21:12.450 have them start? 263 00:21:13.840 --> 00:21:19.590 Uh definitely I would suggest that they write it down because you know, being 264 00:21:19.590 --> 00:21:23.790 specific about what your plan is, what your goal is. And then also identifying 265 00:21:23.790 --> 00:21:28.540 what is the problem you're trying to solve can help really clarify, you know, 266 00:21:28.540 --> 00:21:33.420 the next steps if you're really able to identify and right out the problem 267 00:21:33.430 --> 00:21:38.540 super thoroughly, that will make figuring out what the solution is much 268 00:21:38.540 --> 00:21:42.150 easier. And so you might find that, you know, the bottom up adoption model is 269 00:21:42.150 --> 00:21:49.830 not the way you go, but but if you're able to, you know, decide on what, you 270 00:21:49.830 --> 00:21:52.490 can only figure that out if you know what the problem is that you're trying 271 00:21:52.490 --> 00:21:56.800 to solve. So that's definitely the first step. That's, that's awesome. One 272 00:21:56.800 --> 00:22:02.150 thing that I wanted to jump back to as I'm, I'm listening again and thinking 273 00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:07.850 about expensive eyes, long term visions. And, and one thing you mentioned just 274 00:22:07.850 --> 00:22:13.530 kind of cropped back into my head was this idea of letting people explore 275 00:22:13.530 --> 00:22:16.750 what they're interested in. Then you mentioned that on boarding and 276 00:22:16.750 --> 00:22:21.750 implementation, that's not their only job. It sounds like there is a piece 277 00:22:21.750 --> 00:22:26.490 here of being a generalist at expensive high. Is that something that you 278 00:22:26.490 --> 00:22:31.840 encourage people to be or is it is it um, that they're they're specialists, 279 00:22:31.840 --> 00:22:36.280 but they kind of are just like, you know, collaborators? Yeah. So, um, you 280 00:22:36.280 --> 00:22:39.600 know, you kind of hinted at this a little bit, but at expensive why we 281 00:22:39.600 --> 00:22:43.780 love, you know, and encourage the generalist mentality and for us, what 282 00:22:43.780 --> 00:22:47.350 generalist means is it just means that you're able to specialize in different 283 00:22:47.350 --> 00:22:50.920 things over and over and over and over again. And then you're able to teach 284 00:22:50.920 --> 00:22:54.920 that specialty and generalize it out to everyone else. So theoretically anyone 285 00:22:54.920 --> 00:23:00.160 else could pick up this thing that you just learned, read your instructions 286 00:23:00.170 --> 00:23:04.780 and implemented themselves. Right. And so, um and with health and all that 287 00:23:04.780 --> 00:23:10.790 shirt, but and so and so we really value generalists because they are able 288 00:23:10.800 --> 00:23:15.670 to connect the dots between all the different things that are going on in 289 00:23:15.670 --> 00:23:20.320 different parts of the company. It's not just I'm only focused on marketing, 290 00:23:20.320 --> 00:23:25.170 I'm only focused on my KPI s, I'm only focused on, you know, this section of 291 00:23:25.180 --> 00:23:29.010 the funnel and once it's passed this, it's not my problem. Right? And so 292 00:23:29.010 --> 00:23:33.650 we're able as a result to find more interesting holistic solutions that 293 00:23:33.650 --> 00:23:39.450 again, solved multiple problems versus very specific problems. And it also 294 00:23:39.450 --> 00:23:44.560 helps us keep the bigger picture in mind when everybody has context in 295 00:23:44.570 --> 00:23:48.790 various areas of the company and what those areas are doing. Oh, that's cool, 296 00:23:48.790 --> 00:23:53.500 I love that. So a generalist is somebody who is able to specialize over 297 00:23:53.500 --> 00:23:57.930 and over again and then this huge, important piece, teach somebody else 298 00:23:57.930 --> 00:24:03.410 that is like the key to having shared knowledge and preserving the vision and 299 00:24:03.410 --> 00:24:07.560 the goals and keeping everybody on board. I don't want anyone to be a 300 00:24:07.560 --> 00:24:12.310 bottleneck, which, you know, I think in more traditional companies, people 301 00:24:12.310 --> 00:24:17.400 prize that specialization because the thought is well, they need me. If I'm 302 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:21.810 the only person who can do this job, right? And our mindset is well, if 303 00:24:21.810 --> 00:24:24.920 you're the only person who can do this job, then you're not doing your job 304 00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:28.400 correctly and that gives a lot of people freedom right? Like if you're 305 00:24:28.400 --> 00:24:33.230 the only person who can do your job, you genuinely might turn down and opera 306 00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:37.230 other another opportunity somewhere else, that's the right career move. And 307 00:24:37.230 --> 00:24:41.500 if you're the only person who can do their job, nobody else can come in and 308 00:24:41.500 --> 00:24:44.860 fill in and again, just slow down the process. That's such a cool way to 309 00:24:44.860 --> 00:24:48.370 think about it, because I definitely have thought like make yourself 310 00:24:48.370 --> 00:24:55.660 indispensable be an expert and really kind of, you know, you know, mark out, 311 00:24:55.670 --> 00:24:59.090 this is the boundaries of what I do and I do this really well. I think that's 312 00:24:59.090 --> 00:25:04.900 so human and so relational to say like I I'm really good at this and I'm going 313 00:25:04.900 --> 00:25:09.110 to bring up the next people along with Me too, and I think that's a really 314 00:25:09.120 --> 00:25:12.540 interesting point you brought up too, because um that's one way to be 315 00:25:12.540 --> 00:25:18.030 indispensable, right, is to um have knowledge and be the expert in a 316 00:25:18.030 --> 00:25:22.390 specific area, but I think another um I think what we're trying to get at is 317 00:25:22.390 --> 00:25:27.240 that indispensability comes from trust, right? So if we trust that you can do 318 00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:31.680 something well over and over and over again, um regardless of what that task 319 00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:36.340 is, than you are suddenly a much more valuable employee than someone who 320 00:25:36.350 --> 00:25:40.690 isn't able to do that repetitively. Yeah, and isn't that so true? I always 321 00:25:40.690 --> 00:25:46.760 loved drawing drawing parallels from business to personal life, because I 322 00:25:46.760 --> 00:25:53.630 think I'm probably just like two super relational, but but I think that's like, 323 00:25:53.640 --> 00:25:59.520 man, if trust is such a hinge upon which all relationships turn or open, 324 00:25:59.520 --> 00:26:04.050 or whatever. That final phrases, um that makes sense that it's the same way 325 00:26:04.050 --> 00:26:10.400 in business because business is full of humans. I think if there was one thing 326 00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:14.620 you wanted somebody to take away from this, if you're like, man, just do this 327 00:26:14.620 --> 00:26:18.620 or try this, what would it be? Yeah, I mean, I think you kind of hit the nail 328 00:26:18.620 --> 00:26:22.380 on the head with that statement Olivia, which was focused on the end goal from 329 00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:26.290 a human perspective, right? And then and then if you're able to figure that 330 00:26:26.290 --> 00:26:31.020 out, you can, you know, generate revenue, grow your profits, grow your 331 00:26:31.020 --> 00:26:36.400 companies because those are by products of um a larger goal or mission or 332 00:26:36.410 --> 00:26:40.800 vision, right? And so, you know, figure out as a company what behaviors you 333 00:26:40.800 --> 00:26:46.070 want to incentivize that will again build up upon each other, Right? If the 334 00:26:46.070 --> 00:26:48.860 behavior you want to incentivize is, you know, if you want to create a 335 00:26:48.860 --> 00:26:52.960 company that kind of works a little bit more like a machine, right? Every cog 336 00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:57.480 has a specific role then if that is your goal, then you know how to create 337 00:26:57.490 --> 00:27:02.790 a company like that, right? Um Silo people and departments and you give 338 00:27:02.790 --> 00:27:05.420 them a specific task that they get really good at and that they just 339 00:27:05.420 --> 00:27:10.970 repeat over and over if your goal is to create a company. Um you know that like 340 00:27:10.970 --> 00:27:15.730 us, we recognize that you spend a lot of time here, we want you to stay here 341 00:27:15.730 --> 00:27:22.110 for as long as you want to um forever, whatever that looks like forever one 342 00:27:22.110 --> 00:27:25.590 time. So let's not get into that, but I want you to stay here as long as 343 00:27:25.590 --> 00:27:30.290 possible and so we try to make the workplace as enjoyable, as fun as 344 00:27:30.300 --> 00:27:35.390 interesting um in order to keep you here, right? And that is a different 345 00:27:35.390 --> 00:27:40.160 type of business in a different type of a set of principles. Um and it could be 346 00:27:40.170 --> 00:27:44.070 something as simple as, you know, we have something called an offshore that 347 00:27:44.070 --> 00:27:49.110 we do every year where anybody in the company who wants to can travel, uh we 348 00:27:49.110 --> 00:27:55.740 all work in a Random country um for three weeks in a year and as long as 349 00:27:55.740 --> 00:28:01.540 they have good internet beach and um you know, is generally easy to fly to 350 00:28:01.540 --> 00:28:06.420 from those countries. Um those are pretty much the three criteria, you can 351 00:28:06.420 --> 00:28:11.700 bring your plus one along. Um our third week is usually we preserve that as 352 00:28:11.700 --> 00:28:16.000 like a family week, right? Because we want, we recognize that families play a 353 00:28:16.000 --> 00:28:19.050 super important part in each individual's life and we want to make 354 00:28:19.050 --> 00:28:23.200 sure that you can bring those people who are the most important to you along 355 00:28:23.210 --> 00:28:26.630 and experience the things that you're experiencing as well. And so the third 356 00:28:26.630 --> 00:28:30.970 week is always super fancy. Um you can bring your kids, you can bring your 357 00:28:30.980 --> 00:28:36.360 spouse or partner, whoever that is. And um everybody kind of just, you know, 358 00:28:36.540 --> 00:28:42.500 stays at this one place and we work of course right to be clear. Um but we 359 00:28:42.500 --> 00:28:47.730 also set up that week activities for the kids and for the plus one um to go 360 00:28:47.730 --> 00:28:51.640 on and be able to explore, just enjoy the space or whatever that is and so, 361 00:28:51.650 --> 00:28:55.940 but again, that's because our value is that we want to create a place that 362 00:28:55.940 --> 00:29:00.110 people want are excited to be in, right? And to include the people that are 363 00:29:00.110 --> 00:29:06.170 important um in their lives is one aspect of ensuring that I love that and 364 00:29:06.170 --> 00:29:13.160 I also love that the requirements are a wifi signal and beach. Yeah, that was 365 00:29:13.160 --> 00:29:18.060 definitely um something from early off shores and it just worked really well. 366 00:29:18.070 --> 00:29:23.160 Why not? Yeah. And I think that's so cool that you, for those three weeks, 367 00:29:23.160 --> 00:29:27.900 people aren't feeling and in the weeks looking forward and post, they're not 368 00:29:27.900 --> 00:29:31.920 feeling the tension of like I want to go travel, I want to be by the beach. I 369 00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:36.840 want to experience a different culture and I have to do that as an unattached 370 00:29:36.840 --> 00:29:41.320 to work thing and carve it out of time that I have to be keeping up with the 371 00:29:41.320 --> 00:29:45.650 rest of my life too. Like I think that's a huge gift to employees to be 372 00:29:45.650 --> 00:29:49.620 able to say like this is an awesome thing that we get to do as humans to 373 00:29:49.620 --> 00:29:53.960 travel and you get to be part of it on working hours. So well, you've got a 374 00:29:53.960 --> 00:29:59.750 huge, you've got a huge fan of that from me, joanie. How can listeners 375 00:29:59.750 --> 00:30:04.350 connect with you if they want to learn more about you or expense if I Yeah, so 376 00:30:04.360 --> 00:30:08.380 you know, feel free to message or connect with me on linkedin. Um it's 377 00:30:08.380 --> 00:30:14.530 just joanie wang and um you can find more information about expense if I uh 378 00:30:14.540 --> 00:30:19.310 use dot expensive dot com or just even expensive I dot com. And if you're an 379 00:30:19.310 --> 00:30:25.800 engineer, we are always hiring. So check out. We got our dot expensive by 380 00:30:25.800 --> 00:30:31.810 dot com. Well, thank you for chatting with me on GDP growth. Yeah, thank you 381 00:30:31.810 --> 00:30:35.770 so much for having me Olivia. It's been a pleasure. Oh my gosh, absolutely. 382 00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:43.610 Is the decision maker for your product or service at BBB marketer? Are you 383 00:30:43.610 --> 00:30:47.830 looking to reach those buyers through the medium of podcasting? Considered 384 00:30:47.830 --> 00:30:53.040 becoming a co host of GDP growth. This show is consistently ranked as a top 385 00:30:53.040 --> 00:30:57.190 100 podcast in The marketing category of Apple Podcasts and the show gets 386 00:30:57.190 --> 00:31:02.770 more than 130,000 downloads each month. We've already done the work of building 387 00:31:02.770 --> 00:31:06.800 the audience so you can focus on delivering incredible content to our 388 00:31:06.800 --> 00:31:11.550 listeners. If you're interested, email Logan at Sweet Fish Media dot com. 389 00:31:14.940 --> 00:31:16.670 Yeah.