Transcript
WEBVTT
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Yeah.
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Hey everybody welcome back to be to be
growth. I'm timmy Bauer, content
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strategist. And my guest today is steve
Park Rose. He is the ceo of verb leo a
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company with a team of over what is it?
3000 writers. How many writers do you
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have? That's my right. Three over 3000
riders uh do on demand, content
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creation to power, digital marketing
and S. E. O. And steve. Welcome to the
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show. Thanks. It's good to be here. I'm
excited to talk to you the last time
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you and I were talking, I asked you
what you think is the most underrated
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B2B marketing tactic and you had a
great answer. You said it's having fun
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with your brand. I love that answer.
Why don't we just start there with like
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what do you mean that that's the most
underrated B2B marketing tactic And
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what do you mean by having fun with
your brand? So a couple of things. So I
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think so, first of all the B2B space,
there's something about it, it just
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feels like if your company is selling
to other companies that you need to be
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dry and professional the entire time.
And I think that most people don't
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realize that there's people at the B2B
company, you are people at the B to B
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companies selling to people uh and you
need to bring that to life that those
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connections are more and more important,
the deeper we get into living at home
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and the closer this mixture between our
work and the life personalities become.
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And so if you have a choice of being
educational or educational and
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entertaining in your authentic selves,
people are going to want to work with
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you if you can get education and
entertainment because they're spending
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their amount of time online too. Yeah,
and I mean it's obvious I just poking
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around on your website, I'm like, this
is a company that is having fun with
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their brand. I mean it's it's the big
stuff which I'm going to want to get
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into you with you, but it's even little
stuff, like, so I'm on your website
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right now and your little Pop Up is our
ghost writers won't ghost you, and then
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this picture of this cute little ghost,
and then it's like one quality content
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from our pre qualified writers, and
this is not an ad for a verb leo, but
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honestly steve if you sucked at content,
we would be talking about something
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else. But yeah, I love it, and I'm
excited to get into some of the like,
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specific examples of like really bigger
things that you've done to have fun
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with your brand. But let me ask you
this, why do you think it's so common?
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Like why do you think it's so hard For
B two B companies to like let loose and
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just have fun. So, I think a couple of
things, I think when you ask that
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question, it takes me back to business
school, so I got a marketing degree at
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a business school 20 years ago and the
whole focus was how do you make your
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company successful and you're supposed
to go in there and they teach these
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tools? None of it is about being
yourself forward. And I think that is
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all completely evolved with the growth
of online businesses over the last 20
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years. It's now about having
personality, it's now about actually
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having your personality in front of
your company and merging those two
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things together. And so I think a lot
of it for people of my generation who
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graduated 20 years ago, that's just
deeply uncomfortable. It's
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uncomfortable. Is posting something
really personal about yourself on
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linked in. We would never considering
it. Like, you know, half the people
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graduated with my class right there
profile in the third person about
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themselves, It's their site. So I think
part of it is just like a, getting used
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to what the new business world is. And
I think the second is that just how do
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you have a, you have fun at your
company when you've decided that you're
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one of your company values is to have
fun and to be fun and like you want
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this to be a place that you live and so
it has to be a, you have to have that
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as one of your values and something
that you're doing at the company. I
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think a lot of companies
compartmentalize their marketing
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department and be like, ok, go tell
everybody what you do. So it's more
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about like, here's our glory story and
I have one of my, my favorite podcast
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episodes of all time is there's a, this
american life episode, kind of like one
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of the originals of the podcasting
universe. Uh and it's all about there
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being two types of storytellers and
there is one type of, all of their
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stories are the hero. They end with
themselves as the hero and they've done
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something magnificent and the way that
you respond to that, as you say, wow,
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that's really impressive. And then you
have another kind that's all about
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humor, regardless if it's self
deprecating, making fun of themselves.
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The goal is to entertain your audience
and to keep them. And I think about
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that all the time, if you really want
to break down the world into two types
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of storytellers and I think that be to
be in particular has a hard time
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thinking about, hey, let's poke fun of
ourselves. It's okay we can have a
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world class product and still make it
fun. Yes, I mean the simple reality is
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that as human beings, we keep going
back to the things that make us laugh,
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that is what we are constantly
returning to. So if you're a marketer,
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like you've got to do that and then one
of the biggest ways that you can make
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people laugh is like one of the most
accessible forms of humor, I think is
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self deprecating humor. How did you
personally get past that? Like self
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barrier? Like of insecurity around
getting into self deprecating humor and
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then like how do you get other
companies to get through that? For me,
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it's a pretty opposite problem most
people, I think because my, my sense of
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humor is let's just say at business
school with all of the finance classes,
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My personality type was clearly not the
standard consulting investment banker
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type. So for me, I always found the
corporate kind of handcuffs is like,
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you can't really express yourself, you
always have to be a different self,
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showing up at work, felt very
constraining to me. So I was really
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lucky. I came into this company, I was
hired by the founders four years ago to
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scale the company and the founders were
super fun too. So the founding
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journalist, uh, Ceo, his, you know, his
background as a journalist and
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everything he wrote was fun and goofy.
And basically it just gave me a
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platform to say, I can take this and
run with this. I don't have to be
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anyone stuff. Actually. I would offend
the founding Ceo who hired me uh, if I
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was that type. So I was super lucky to
do. So the question is like if you're a
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B two B market or how do you go to your
CFO? How do you go to your um you know
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to a Ceo who doesn't believe the same
values you do and express it. And I
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think you have to look at all of the
marketing trends of like authenticity
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and the power of it. I look at
companies like whiskey as one of our
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founding lights of like companies
leading the way with fun personalities
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that totally changed B two B marketing
and rand Fishkin and what they're right,
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you gotta find a way to stand out. So
whiskey a story I think is a really
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interesting way to do this, which is
when they were into their space. There
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are 15 companies that were doing B two
B video hosting. It is not a very sexy
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space. Uh and their way that they stood
out as they wrote a really goofy and
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funny viral video that just took off
with less funding than everybody else.
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People want to interact with that brand
to make it human. So I think the first
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step is to gain the permission from
your company in order to run with what
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you want to and just have those fun
brainstorming sessions. If we could do
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anything we wanted and write anything,
we could right now, what would we write
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about? What would, what video do we do?
This is kind of how we got to are you
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might have seen our piece that we right
after I just was going to ask you about
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it. Yeah, so hilarious video that you
guys made, its um you're like dressed
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as a doctor. I loved how it starts,
You're like got a lab coat on and
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you're like, I'm not a doctor, but I do
have an amazon prime account is where I
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got this lab coat and the place I
haven't paused on right now is your
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listing different things that verbal
leo can help with? And one of them is
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like C. B. D. For dog anxiety, M. D. M.
A. For human anxiety. I mean you really
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got edgy in this video. How did the
video happen? And uh tell me the story
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behind it? So first of all, we have,
our team is super creative and we're
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always brainstorming these ideas and
our problem is always which ones do we
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pursue as opposed to how do we come up
with anything? Uh and then we have just
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an absolutely brilliant copywriter who
like you need to have somebody on your
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team who can foster your good ideas. So
everyone's got great brainstorming
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sessions. To me this is like your great
copywriter is a combination of the
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product manager on your dev team, who
everybody comes up with a great
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development ideas that your engineering
team should do and then they all get
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lost in space. Unless there is an
amazing person who can handle the
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vision side and also the organization
side. And for me, that's our brilliant
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copywriter, who can both capture all
those ideas. Um curate them, figure out
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which ones are good and then bring them
to life. So how do you get a copywriter
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like that? What do you look for? Oh man!
You find somebody that you completely
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gel with and like get to you and you
say your idea that you thought was
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funny and then they say it back to you
and it's more funny and it's more
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accurate. Hi dan Sanchez here with a
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trans guide. I like that. That's a
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really good just little tidbit. I also
want to talk to you about this article
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that you wrote. I'm going to read some
of it and once again like this is not
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what I would normally do on a podcast
episode, but you guys did this article
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attending burning man or inbound. We
are more alike than we are different.
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36 of our team attended inbound. In 21
of our team attended burning man this
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year. We were, this is funny, we were
going to make a Venn diagram comparing
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the two, but then we realized it would
look more like a solar eclipse than a
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Venn diagram. And then just you scroll
down and there's um, it's like Burning
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Man or inbound one. Strange deafening
club music at all hours of the day to
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strangers, keep approaching you and
trying to give you things three, you're
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in a constant detox re tox cycle four
after 10 minutes of talking to someone,
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you're still not sure what they're
talking about. Oh man, this is good.
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How did this happen? So first of all,
the concept of this one was mine. I
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will not say the majority are mine, but
this one was just like, I just felt the
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cult spirit from both sides because I'm
obsessed with cults and I like read all
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sorts of history of culture all the
time. Anyway, I'm like, we are both in
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cults were a business cult. And so when
it comes back, the first thing we do is
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it's not just like a one on one process.
We have a slack channel that's all
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about brainstorm. And so creating a fun
brand is not just about what the
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marketing team does, its about. You
were reading off some of the things
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that we have fun copy even on our sales
emails, we have an automated sales
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email that had a poem on it as a third
automated message which was basically
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you've dropped off. We want to win you
back. I can read that one too. But like
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the way you get that is you have to
hire with that, that has to be one of
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your hiring criteria. So before you
build a brand that you can turn into
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fund, you have to create your vision
and then you have to hire the team that
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believes in the vision and lives it.
And so like the step three where you
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get to have fun with the brand, you had
to do a lot of work up front to really
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define how to get there. And so the
story behind the Burning Man post was,
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we came back then we've created a
channel that was pure brainstorming of
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everybody in our company, of everybody
throwing out their ideas and because of
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that, you know, probably three quarters
of them came from everybody else in the
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company and only a quarter of them,
maybe it came from the copywriter
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herself, but she, she pulls it all
together and then we get to edit them.
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I love it. What I want to do with
podcast episodes is try to make them as
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practical as I can. So the idea here is
how to have fun with your brand, What
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would you tell listeners as like,
here's the process, here's how you have
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fun with your brand. Step one, step two,
wow, I don't really think of it as a
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step by step process. I will say that
one of the key steps that we haven't
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included is the same key is to all good
content, which is all good content is
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not just uh first is understanding your
audience. The second is to what do you
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want to write about, But one of the
most critical piece, if not the most
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critical, is consistency and making
sure that you write something
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consistently produced video
consistently, post on linkedin
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consistently, wherever is your main
channel. And so what I'd recommend is
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you. So what we've started to do with
my linkedin post, I try to post three
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times a week. One is my podcast share
one is, you know, something on the hero
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story side and then my friday post is
always going to be fun. And so we try
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to plan that out in our planning cycle,
which is like if we haven't done
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something that's entertaining to us,
that makes us smile and we want to
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share it with all of our friends every
month and a half, then that needs to be
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part of our cycle. So I would say put
it into your content calendar is the
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only way you'll ever make it a priority.
What are some key ways that you try to
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vet the ideas that your team comes up
with to figure out what you're going to
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go with and what you're not going to go
with, especially for the too edgy stuff,
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which, which comes up too often. I
would say that Well, that's probably
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one thing right? There is. So you've
got a whole bunch of stuff coming your
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way that is too edgy. I mean, I would
say that there's probably plenty of
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companies where they don't have that
problem because they haven't encouraged
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their writers to really swing for it. I
think we so, first of all, did it
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entertain us? And if it entertained us
a lot, then it's going to take a lot
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for us to take it away, even if it is
too edgy. And then I think we just have
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our basic these are the people, each
one of us has somebody that we trust,
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like our circle of like five people
that we run it by. So it's pretty damn
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and formal Because we're we're 3000
writers, but we're like 30 people at
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our headquarters. We don't have to go
through this bureaucracy. We don't have
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a legal department reviewing our copy
any of the stuff that I would have had
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to do it. Some of the bigger companies
that have worked at before. So I think
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right now, we don't have it very
formalized. And until I get into
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trouble, we'll probably keep it that
way. I don't know what your answer
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would be with this, but this is the
question that's bubbling up to my mind.
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And that is how could you encourage
somebody with a much smaller team, uh,
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with a very small team, maybe they got
just a couple of writers to try to
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emulate the kinds of things that you're
doing. I would say one of the things
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that we've been doing kind of
informally is once we really kind of
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latched onto this idea is we started to
try to write down things that we said
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in informal meetings. Like it doesn't
all have to be a brainstorming meeting.
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Our best ideas are probably going to be
with us, like in a normal, like a, you
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know, a product planning meeting.
Somebody says something off the cuff.
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Oh my God, shouldn't we have a plan
that just takes all of those clients
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and puts them into outer space and
you're like, oh yeah, that's funny. But
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now we're trying to write them down, so
it's really to uh make sure that we're
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thinking about them. My so I was a
random history major and I threw out
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random history references generally
about the Mongolian empire all the time.
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Okay, my marketing guy loves them, but
I never do anything with them, and he's
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like, I'm writing them all down and I'm
giving him back to you and those will
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be your linkedin post on friday. And so
I think the key to great content is to
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take the stuff you've already done and
put it out there, as opposed to think
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so hard about how do you create
something that's never been done before?
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And then follow up question like it is,
how do you think a smaller company
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could be trying to emulate what you
guys are doing and get it wrong? Um way
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number one that comes up to me is like,
if you're trying to say, we're trying
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to have fun with our customer services
messaging to, which is the time that,
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you know, your clients are most tense,
they've got a piece of content back
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that they didn't love or they've been
waiting one day extra for it. And like
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there, you know, at high, high anxiety
mode with your company and you're
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trying to re win, that becomes the
friendliest content creation platform
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in the business as we want as we strive
to be. There are moments where you
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could really screw that up by trying to
have too much fun while they're not
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having fun. And so how do you
personally navigate it? We work on that
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tone multiple times. So what we try to
do is we empower everybody in the
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company to have as much fun as with the
brand as possible. So if you're gonna
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make I give you full license on my team
to make the mistakes as possible. If
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you're trying to live the brand values
and have fun and if it's received the
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wrong way, this is going to happen, but
I'd rather have it, be received the
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wrong way and have somebody to remember
us for something that we're doing that
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was unique than just be to corporate
and not not the fun company they want
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to work with on their free time. And so
the way we try to navigate that is to
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answer the question first, make sure
you resolve the clients issue before
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you, you know, make it more more fun
and are taking, Could you give me an
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example? I know I'm really putting you
on the spot here, but do you think you
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could give me an example of something
that you did to make it more fun? I
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mean, I know we're dealing with like
sensitive information so you don't have
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to tell me like who it was and who
messed it up and what they did. But I'm
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just curious uh as specific as you
could get with, like what was the
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method or what, what did they do to be
humorous at the same time as they were
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trying to make it better. I'm going to
give you an example because I don't
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have one right off the bat, but I do
have one of my favorite ones from
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wisteria that I was just sharing with
the company. So they have a, your
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credits are about to expire, which is,
you know, just as painful and B two B
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as a message can be. And it ends with
when you have a moment, could you
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please visit our building page to
update your payment information? It
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would be much appreciated by the walrus
in our building department. Nice. Great.
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It's just so clever. It's so easy. It's
still on target. You're pushing the
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customer, but you're still like, we
realize you're a person and we thought
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this was funny. Yeah, I love it. Steve,
it's been really fun talking to you.
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How can listeners connect with you a
few ways so you can see our site at
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virgilio dot com. E R E L O dot com. Uh,
make sure to check out the publisher's
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00:18:37.220 --> 00:18:41.190
page in the cannabis page if you're
looking for most fun, copied, uh, and
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00:18:41.190 --> 00:18:44.800
you can check out my um my podcast
verbally O'shea, which comes out at the
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00:18:44.800 --> 00:18:47.450
Wednesday. Love it. Thanks for being on.
Thanks so much
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00:18:49.840 --> 00:18:54.120
is your buyer at BB marketer. If so you
should think about sponsoring this
274
00:18:54.120 --> 00:18:58.930
podcast. BtB Growth gets downloaded
over one 130,000 times each month. And
275
00:18:58.930 --> 00:19:02.600
our listeners are marketing decision
makers. If it sounds interesting, send
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00:19:02.600 --> 00:19:05.670
Logan and email Logan at sweet Fish
Media dot com.
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Yeah.