Transcript
WEBVTT
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Hello and welcome to the B two B growth
show. Monthly book Talk. I'm Douglas
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Burnett, host to the marketing book
Podcast, where each week I published an
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interview with the author of a new
marketing or sales book to help me and
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my listeners keep up with the latest
ideas in the quickly changing world of
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marketing and sales. And joining me is
my friend James Muir, author of The
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Perfect Close. This Secret to Closing
sales in this monthly episode of the B
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two B growth show. We recap some of the
key ideas from the marketing and sales
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books recently featured on the
marketing book Podcast. Now I read
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every book featured on the marketing
book Podcast, but James reads even more
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books than Ideo, and he listens to
every episode of the marketing book
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podcast. So I'm delighted that he
conjoined me. But first, a lot of
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listeners ask us both for book
recommendations. So if either of us can
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recommend any marketing or sales books
or other resource is for whatever
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situation you find yourself in or what
you'd like to learn more about, please
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feel free to connect with us on linked
in where we can chat with you and we'll
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do our best to get you pointed in the
right direction. However, please make
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sure to include a message with your
invitation to connect on lengthen so
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we'll know you're not a spam baht, baby.
James, welcome back to the B two B
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growth show book talk. Thank you,
Douglas. I appreciate the intro, and,
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you know, I do read every book, and I
listen to every episode because I like
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your picks. You know, you gotta smoking
track record when it comes, man. Yeah.
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I can't believe these guests I attract.
I shouldn't say that our collection is
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really right up my alley this time too.
So, man, this is your role. If there
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were a James Muir edition of the B two
B growth show book, this is the one.
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This is the one I don't know, man.
We've had some good ones, so Yeah, So
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in this episode of book talk, we're
gonna talk about the four most recent
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books featured on the marketing book
podcast. And those are the visual sale.
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How to use video to explode sales,
drive marketing, grow your business in
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a Virtual World by Marcus Sheridan and
Tyler Lazard. Also the expansion sale
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for Must Win. Conversations to Keep and
Grow Your Customers, by Eric Peterson
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and Tim Reiser, and also unfiltered
marketing. Five. Rules to Win Back
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Trust, Credibility and Customers in a
Digitally Distracted World, by Stephen
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Denny and Paul Lynde. Burger and
finally out bounding when new customers
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with outbound Sales and end your
Dependence on Inbound leads by Williams.
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Skip Miller. Yeah, now I think,
personally that Marcus Sheridan's book,
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they ask you answer, is probably one of
the best marketing books ever written.
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And so I was super excited to see him
teamed up with Tyler on our first book,
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which is the visual sale. How to use
video to explode sales, drive marketing.
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Grow your business in the virtual world.
So tell us about your interview with
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marketing legend Marcus Sheridan. Yes,
and I should add Tyler Lassard is with
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vidyard the personal video company, and
I use their e use it as well. So Marcus
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Sheridan Well, first, I just gotta be
up front here. Marcus Sheridan is high
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atop the Douglas Burnett man crush list.
Okay, there I said it. I just I love
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this guy. I think it's a long list? Yes,
yes. But he wrote They ask you answer.
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Okay. And so years ago, 2001, I think
he wrote, started a pool cut fiberglass
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pool company in a rural area of
Virginia. They started growing it. They
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started doing a lot of advertising.
2000 and eight happened. The real
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estate market crashed. Nobody wanted a
pool. They almost went out of business.
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He almost had to lose his house and
declare bankruptcy. And what happened
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was they have more money for
advertising. And he said, You know what?
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I'm a stubborn entrepreneur. I'm not
gonna give up. I'm just gonna start
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answering every question I've ever
gotten from a customer on my website.
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And within a year now this is 2000 and
eight. It was the number one pool site
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in the world Onley by answering
customers questions, mind blowing. It
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is in The New York Times later wrote
about it and said, This is a
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revolutionary approach and he did a Ted
talk and he said now and he's gotten
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into the marketing business. He's still
in the pool business. He's gotta use a
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manufacturer now. So they ask you
answer. It's It's actually in two
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editions, and I've interviewed him
about both of them. But it's the most
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counterintuitive thing. But when you
answer your customers questions on your
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website, particularly ones you don't
want to answer, their trusting you
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sores and their fear of doing business
with you really starts to plummet. So
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in his second edition, he added an
extra 100 pages on. They ask you answer,
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which I recommend to everyone. It is
truly one of my favorites out of the
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over 300 that I've I've read for this
show, and he added extra 100 pages and
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that had to do more specifically with
what to put on your website and how toe
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use videos. So this is a much deeper
dive into how to use videos in the
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sales process. Please note it is not a
book about how to make videos. There's
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a lot of good resource is out there
that will tell you how to do that. It's
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simpler and less expensive that you
think, but basically, you know, the
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human brain likes watching videos more
than it does reading texts, and it's
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just so much powerful for building a
relationship until you can get face to
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face ideally and building trust and
basically not not a big surprise here.
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You should focus your videos on
answering the questions your customers
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have at rather than what most companies
do it, which is talking about
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themselves. That's why I think he calls
everyone's so many companies. Their
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YouTube page is like a retirement home
for videos because they put him up
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there. They're all about them. Nobody
watches. I mean, you can see the
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analytics. So yes, this is all
counterintuitive. And let me just jump
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into one particular type of video that
he recommends what it's called the 80%
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video and what you dio is you get with
your sales team and you ask them, What
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are the questions you are answering
every day? And whenever I've done that
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with a sales team, they're usually
saying, Well, as I could tell you right
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now, you know, these are the ones that
just come up all over and over again.
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What you do is you then prioritize
those into like the top seven. You can
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have six. You can have nine. But he
says generally companies will have the
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top seven and then you cut together
individual videos answering those
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questions. But you can also put it into
one big video, which is called the 80%
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Video. And it works really well. And
Thea other thing, that and there's
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several other things, lots of things he
talks about about using video. And
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really, I think everyone who's
successful in sales is going to read
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this book and say, Oh, yeah, I do some
of that I haven't done all of it great,
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Uh, for people who cross their arms and
say, Well, I just don't think my
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customers wanna watch video. Good luck.
Your hey would just tell you you're
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wrong. Well, he would say, You're wrong,
but it's just not true, you know? And
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he in his book, he's very funny. He
talks about all the pushback he gets,
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but it's all about the buyer. And
answering questions is all about the
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buyer. So, you know, how do you say
politely? Shut up about yourself. Focus.
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Focus on your buyer because they have a
lot more control over the content that
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they consume, and they want things that
we're focused on them. So the other
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thing that was so interesting in the
book was that marketers, generally
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speaking, need to be doing a lot more
video. And what happens is, Ah, lot of
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video is done for what we might call
awareness or sort of top of the funnel
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work. You know more broader terms, and
it's good that you're doing it. But
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that's often where it stops. What you
ought to do is sit down with your sales
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people and say, What are some videos or
one of the questions that you're
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getting from a prospect that already
knows you and is ready, possibly to
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make a decision, work your way up the
funnel because that's where a lot of
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this video is really needed, Uh, in the
sales process. And as we know, as we
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all know, you know, people don't really
want to talk to salespeople. You know,
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they would rather not do that, even
though a lot of sales people could be
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very helpful. But at least get the
video out there so they can, uh, they
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can consume that. And the other thing
that was interesting. Just a couple of
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real specifics is he explains, how you
know a landing page is a page people go
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to where they fill out a form, maybe to
gain access to some content or to
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schedule a meeting or whatever. But
there's usually some hesitation. Every
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landing page, ideally, should have a
video on it saying, Here's what's gonna
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happen when you fill out this form.
It's just really reduces the risk.
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Email marketing has improved
dramatically with video, and he even at
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the end of the book. And this is worth
the price of the book for anyone that
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does any kind of zoom meetings, which
means every every one of you listening
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to this. He's got the 11 irrefutable
laws of virtual sales meetings. I just
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loved it, but I'll stop here. But the
one thing that I just wanted to carve
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in stone, as it relates to using video
in sales, is authenticity. Trump's
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production value and so many people
think that they have to hire a
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production company. In fact, it would
be better if you didn't if you could
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build this culture of video and content
within your organization, it's gonna
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stick and it's and it's going to start
working better. But if it's too slick
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as we're gonna talk about another book
that came up here unfiltered marketing
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is you're actually hurting yourself by
having to slick a production value.
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Don't be too polished. Yeah, it sounds
a little bit like intent matters more
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than technique, doesn't it? E had to
slide that in there, but that works in,
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you know, human relationships, you know?
Yeah, it's more. It's more of the
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message than, uh than how it appears.
But if you are your sales team or any
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of the experts at your company are
answering questions that people
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answering those questions, they're
gonna be usually experts. I mean,
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they're really familiar with what
they're talking about, and if they are,
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that's gonna come through. You can't
make that turn the camera on and asking
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questions and let him let him go
through it. And the more real it is,
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the better it is. E. You might get the
impression that it's all about just Q
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and A. And of course, that's super
important, maybe overall framework for
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all these. But he is giving about half
a dozen different categories of videos.
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You know, 80% 1 you mentioned, but
there's three employees bios. There's
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the product fit. There's cost and
pricing, which surprised some people.
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They don't want to reveal their costs
on DSO. He's covers out of some length
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in both books, actually, in a customer
journey claims we make even demo videos.
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So anyway, there's excellent content
all the way around. Um, and the one
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take away that he had eyes. We said at
the very beginning of this, which is
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recognized, that you are a media
company with you, like it or not, all
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right. And the second part of that was,
unless you show it, whatever it ISS, it
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doesn't exist, right? You have to put
it on video. That's how important it is.
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So I liked it. It's not just a high
level marketing book. I mean, what
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you're getting here is a really it's
really the perfect mix of ideas and
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checklists to engage an audience. You
know, build awareness, great following
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drive demand. And I think it's super
applicable to both marketing and sales
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professional. So just really, you know,
a sales person could get this and say,
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Gosh, I should be doing this, get their
phone out and do it or they use the
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camera on their computer at the same
times This is an excellent opportunity
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for a marketing person to read this and
say, Oh, my goodness, this is a great
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way to help the sales team and build my
own credibility. And probably heaven
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forbid, actually start increasing sales.
Yeah, the real goal. Yeah, Yeah,
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dynamite. All right, well, next up,
we've got the expansion sale. Four must
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win conversations to keep and grow your
customers by Peterson and Tim Reiser.
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And I love every single book that has
been put out by corporate visions. And
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I would have just add to that that
their website is also dynamite. And so
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I Oh, they were kind of slowly leaking
information that was gonna be in this
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book on their website and in different
webinars and things. So I was anxiously
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awaiting this book. Tim himself is an
amazing author. He's a great speaker.
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If you ever get a chance to see him,
you should see him. So tell us a little
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about your interview with Tim. Yes, and
I met him at a event in Chicago and he
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was one of the speakers, and afterwards
I came up to him. He was the last
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speaker of the day to and I came up and
said You were the best speaker all day.
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And James Muir. I could say that
because I was also one of the speakers.
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You and your self deprecating humor. I
love it, but he was. He was good and he
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takes such great content. And then he
the speaking is even better. So
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corporate visions does this
unbelievable research. And as I
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mentioned him during the interview,
it's sort of like reading a book by,
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you know, corporate executive Board, C
E B. They're not product where it's
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like the Challenger sale or the
challenge of customer. Its like you
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read this and you go, Really, they go,
Yeah, it's backed up by all this
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research and they tell you about the
research. Yeah, So basically the story
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with this book is that if you
communicate with your customers the
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same way you do with your prospective
customers, you are hurting yourself Now.
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They had this hunch, but then, of
course, they did a few years of
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research into it. And basically, let's
just remind folks 70 to 80% of business
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growth comes from existing customers.
But most like I said, most companies
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air communicating with their customers
the same way they do with their
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prospects, and it often has disastrous
mistakes. It's hard to keep the
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customers if you're communicating with
them in the same way you did to get
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them. So they talk in the book. Is the
title implies about the four most
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important conversations? There's lots
of communications you do with your
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customers. But the four most important
ones were getting renew ALS, like
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contract renewals, communicating price
increases every sales persons, their
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ears just went up. Communicating price
increases, increasing up cells in other
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words, selling mawr and apologizing
effectively for missed aches or service
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failures. Those were the four that have
the biggest impact on keeping or
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running off your customers. And one of
the big concepts underlying their
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research and really any kind of human
psychology or sales is about the status
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quo bias, right? So ah, body at rest
tends to stay at rest. People don't
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like change, and the reason we don't
like changes because it's helped our
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ancestors evolved. Change often met a
bear was coming in. Hey, yeah, so
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there's a reason why we don't want to
change things. So, for instance, um if
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you got your customers by convincing
them to change, and then once they're
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oh, and they did, we're all selling
change, regardless of whatever it is we
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happen to be selling, and then you then
once their customer, you then come back
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and propose even more change. The
research shows that the customers, more
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often than not, want to say, All right,
well, let's go look for another
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supplier. No, don't do that. Ouch!
There's a There's a very specific way
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that a sales team could understand as
to how you need to go about some of
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these things differently. But those are
the four ways they explain how to do it
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right and how to do it, how to run your
customers off. But the other thing that
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really resonated with me, James, was
that the mortar that you can
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communicate to your customers as it
relates to their goals, the more
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effective you will be and that doesn't
that sound like, uh, making effective
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sales as well. James, you're a little
familiar rather than in this book. They
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talk about how it's really a bad idea
to be talking about products and
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features toe lead with that instead
lead with their goals. So I mean, it
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works well in sales. But it also works
even better when you're communicating
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with with customers. Because like if
you have a new product and you're
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trying to introduce it to him and you
say we have a new product, they really
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don't care and they don't trust you
because I think, oh, you're just trying
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to get more money from us. You have a
self orientation, you're not concerned
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about us. And they proved that z really
not up for debate anymore. So you could
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You could say that what I like about
this but a lot of the book is about
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framing right and the best way to frame
your communication in one of those
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various different context, right? I
think it's why stay? Why pay more? Why
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evolve and wife forgive and that the
sequence that you use when you're
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presenting those messages sometimes
makes more difference than than the
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actual product on the offer and all
that kind of eso. I found that
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fascinating and that's one of the thing
is very cool about the research that
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they do is they test all these
different things. They usually scramble
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it in every way possible to see which
order is the best way to introduce the
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concepts. And then they figure out
which one wins the most and so far and
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most of their research, it's always the
same one that totally dominates right.
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It becomes really obvious which one is
the way to go. And that's really what
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the secret that you're getting when you
buy the book is okay if you need. If
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you just screwed up and now you need to
go apologize, here's the best way to
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apologize, right? And that was such a
good example where they had, I don't
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know, five or seven different ways that
companies might think to apologize. But
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there's a certain order that makes a
big, big difference. It's amazing, and
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you wouldn't expect that right? You
would think just sucking it up does the
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trick right? Or or comping it or I mean,
they go through all the different
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things in there. But no, there's a
single best way, and now you've got at
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least as of today, if you want to know
the best way to get forgiveness, its's
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in that book, Yeah, and and it's
Normally you'd read something like that
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in the book and you'd say, Well, you
know, that's your opinion But the
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problem is they back it up. They
include all the research there, and
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it's like, Oh, yeah, the counter
intuitive thing is the one that you
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said at the beginning, which is in
sales. We tend to treat everybody as
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though they're a new customer, and that
will backfire on you if you're trying
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to go get Renew ALS. If you're a SAS
company, you're trying to get
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renewables or you're trying to do a
price increase because maybe you
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upgrade to the feature set or something
like that. They give you the right way
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to do that, and it's not. It's not the
change message that we were using
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before from the other books. Yeah, and
I didn't realize that some of those
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things were so counterproductive and so
alienating to customers. Yeah, I think
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they're working on another book, which
I'm excited about, which is, of course,
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about messaging, but, um, and they've
leaked some of this information, but
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it's how hyper customized does your
emails need to be on your messaging
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need to be, and it turns out that
there's a sort of 80 20 rule where you
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don't wanna overdo it backfires and you
don't wanna under do it. So we'll wait
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for that book. But I'm I'm I So follow
these guys that I'm super excited about
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that. Yeah, You really don't wanna miss
what they come out with. It gives you
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an edge, right? As soon as you learn it,
man, you could go out there and apply
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it, and suddenly you're beating the
pants off everybody because everybody's
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doing the old school way, right? Think
about it. We were We were selling
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upgrades the way we were selling new
clients and it was backfiring on us. So,
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you know, his one take away was just
basically What we've been saying is
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that one size doesn't fit all when it
comes to messaging or storytelling. The
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situation determines the strategy, and
that's what they're giving you here and
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those for any way that they have given
you. And then the one thing he thought
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the listeners could dio is to leverage
what they call the context effect. And
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that is to frame your existing
expansion in the context of the
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previous investment that they made
right with you and that that will make
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it make much more sense to them, and it
will resonate more with them. So it's
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really more of a consistency place.
Well, yeah, and it's also sort of
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leveraging the status quo bias where?
Look how much you went through to pick
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us. You don't wanna have to do that
again, right? You don't want to throw
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that away, right? Exactly. And it's
really a simple message when you get
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thinking about it. But that's not how
we were doing it before, Right? When
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we're making great from there is, Then
you say if you're thinking about it, I
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don't want to think I will say this. I
have seen an entire industry destroyed
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by one company buying another company,
buying multiple companies trying to
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acquire. And what happened is every
time they with the dream that they
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would upgrade their I t system with
this new one that they had in the wings,
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right? So they thought they were buying
market share. They're gonna upgrade
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with this new system. And what happened
in every case is they went out there
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and they sold the change and what that
caused is that cost all those customers
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to go look outside of that vendor. They
thought the upgrade was gonna be an
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automatic, And as soon as they realized
they were gonna have to make a change,
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they say, Well, we may as well look at
everything right now since we're gonna
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have to make a change. And that
literally destroyed the company. They
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acquired all these companies and then
literally lost about 80% of their
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market share due to just, you know,
normal head to head competitions. Eso
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this book probably directly today. That
was 20 years ago, right? But, you know,
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think about it, that that is a literal
testament to what they're saying here
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in this book. Well, he's getting a ton
of content in the like, literally a ton
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of contents in the book is in that
interview that you did with him, or so
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I would highly recommend that listeners
actually go Definitely go listen to the
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full interview. He's really I mean,
it's nonstop. It's really a very high
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value interview on Guy would also tell
the listeners, Don't just pick up this
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book, go out and pick up all the books
you won't not be sorry. They're
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excellent. Very true. I think this is
the third one that the two of them have
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written. It's a CEO, and then Tim is
ahead of strategy. I believe. Josh,
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what do you think is the most
irritating thing for B two B buyers
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right now, an Logan. I love talking to
you about this. You know that the
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number one challenge right now is that
many customer facing teams in the B two
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B space right now are forcing their
potential buyers, too, by the way that
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they want to sell. Buyers don't wanna
buy that way right now. They wanna, by
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the way they want to buy. We need to
enable those buyers. We call this buyer
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enablement at sales reach. We need to
enable those buyers to make better
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decisions quicker in a comfortable
environment that's more personalized
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for them to move forward with that
process. Dude, that's awesome. I
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couldn't agree more. Since I've been
using sales reach in my own sales
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process, it's allowed me to really
enable the buyer to move more quickly
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in really two ways. One, they don't
have to download a bunch of attachments.
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Aiken, send them toe one page with the
proposal. Case studies Different
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resource is because, let's face it, the
proposal is just one part of the sales
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conversation and probably Onley one
sales enablement piece of content that
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you're sending so it makes it easier on
them. And then the other thing is, you
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know, we're selling to our champions,
and then we're making them have to re
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give our pitch to the entire buying
committee. So one thing I do is put a
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custom 2 to 3 minute video on the top
of my sales reach page that says, Hey,
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here's all the resource is tie it back
to the conversation. Here's the
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proposal. Let me know if you have any
questions, and it allows me to give a
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little bit of kind of a mini pitch to
the rest of the buying committee.
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Introduce myself, which helps me build
trust and credibility and helps the
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buyer not have to repeat the entire
pitch from scratch. So if anybody is
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looking to do the same thing in their
own sales process, I'd highly suggest
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they reach out to you and the team over
its sales reach for anybody listening.
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Just go to sales reach dot io to talk
to Josh and the team. All right, well,
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great. Next up, we've got unfiltered
marketing. Five rules to win back Trust,
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credibility and customers in a
digitally Distracted World by Stephen
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00:23:09.460 --> 00:23:13.650
Denny and Paul Line Burger and this
book gets right to what is probably the
335
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most important element in both sales
and marketing, and that would be trust.
336
00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.570
So tell us a little bit about your
interview with Stephen Denny. Well, you
337
00:23:21.570 --> 00:23:26.970
know, this is another book based on
several years of research about the
338
00:23:26.970 --> 00:23:33.770
intersection of culture and technology.
And they are talking in this book about
339
00:23:33.770 --> 00:23:41.000
this fascinating collapse of trust in
institutions around us. And you know
340
00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:45.340
how when you're watching the news or if
you've seen the news o are sports or
341
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whatever and they're they're showing on
the screen a tweet from somebody. Yeah,
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In the interview, I joked with him. I
said, You know, I think the news media
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dies a little bit inside every time
they have to put a tweet up because we
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could have seen that tweet. They're no
longer news. And that was a big part of
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the beginning of the book, where how,
like I think he talked about when Osama
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bin Laden was killed. There was an I t
professional, like in the next house,
347
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and he was tweeting about what was
going on. And everybody or a lot of
348
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people around the world, start figuring
out what was going on long before there
349
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was a press conference with President
Obama. So that's where we are now.
350
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Where the media is being by passed to a
certain extent, and we've got all this,
351
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uh, live information available to us.
So they write about these different
352
00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:36.220
latent anxieties and desires. That that
people have is that relates to this
353
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information. And one of the big
concepts that's come out is that people
354
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want to have some sense of control over
their lives. They're they're very
355
00:24:45.560 --> 00:24:49.870
mistrustful of organizations there,
mistrustful of your businesses. They
356
00:24:49.870 --> 00:24:53.930
don't really they trust them, They call
it seeking control in and out of
357
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control world. And so some of the ways
that they some of things they talk
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about in the book is this idea of just
being raw, meaning, you know,
359
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unscripted. So let's say your head of
an airline and there's been a big
360
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problem you don't wait a few days, you
get on your phone or whatever and just
361
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say, Look, we don't have all the
information, but here's what's going on
362
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and this is what we're gonna do to keep
you updated. And you're starting to see
363
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more companies do that. You're starting
to see some that hide in a bunker. Bad
364
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idea. It hurts trust even more than
just a few years ago. And then a couple
365
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of the concepts they talk about is how
raw, being unscripted and unscripted is
366
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sort of a willingness to be vulnerable.
And the example I just gave where
367
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you're not saying, you know, like,
emotionally vulnerable saying, Look, we
368
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don't have all the information, but
we're going to update you and these are
369
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the actions were taking that works much
better. And the other thing that was
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you know, one of many things that was
so fascinating is that they talked
371
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about how in the future when a company
wants to draw attention to like a new
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product, it's launching its not gonna
have a press conference necessarily.
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It's gonna do live streaming, you know,
warts and all. You know the possibility,
374
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Miss take. They people trust the live
streaming mawr, and you're probably
375
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gonna start seeing Mawr live streaming.
One of the things they talk about in
376
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the book about how people trust this
unfiltered marketing mawr is this idea
377
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of being in context. So the more that
again we're sounds like we're talking
378
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about effective sales here for content.
But the mawr, you could be relevant and
379
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sort of empathic for what people are
looking for that moment, the more
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successful you're gonna be. So just
like those videos we talked about with
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with Marcus book you know, if you have
more video about the bottom of the
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sales funnel, you're really going to
stand out because not many people have
383
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that, and it's demonstration of Oh,
these people understand me and and they
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00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.470
go on to talk about, you know, other
ideas about being in context again. Do
385
00:26:51.470 --> 00:26:55.370
you sense a theme? They talk about how
teaching your customers to be better
386
00:26:55.370 --> 00:27:01.710
buyers is really, really effective
market, teaching them how to buy the
387
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thing you're selling well, you're able
to put it in context and you're able to
388
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show why they might want to consider
paying more for something. But they
389
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just didn't know that I think about
something I'm not familiar with, like a
390
00:27:12.440 --> 00:27:15.970
roofing job or something that I don't
go by all the time. The more that I'm
391
00:27:15.970 --> 00:27:20.540
able to understand why something should
be price Maurin the value there I I'm
392
00:27:20.540 --> 00:27:24.630
all about it. And I'm all excited when
a company takes the time to explain
393
00:27:24.630 --> 00:27:29.630
that to me. Other. One of the other
things that was so interesting and
394
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talked about a lot on the podcast and
all these books is that they talk about
395
00:27:32.520 --> 00:27:38.020
why experience design is so important.
And it's really for the same reason. If
396
00:27:38.020 --> 00:27:43.130
you're able to think Maura about every
interaction they have with your company,
397
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whether they're buying from you or
they're considering it or the after
398
00:27:46.800 --> 00:27:51.630
they've become a customer, the mawr
effective, you're gonna be the greater
399
00:27:51.640 --> 00:27:57.960
loyalty there's going to be. So
designing what your customer encounters
400
00:27:57.970 --> 00:28:02.720
is, I would argue the most important
marketing because you know, the Maya
401
00:28:02.720 --> 00:28:06.400
Angelou quote, people will forget what
you said. People will forget what you
402
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:10.370
did, but they'll never forget how you
made them feel. So you know what? Just
403
00:28:10.370 --> 00:28:12.410
two other things I want to mention
about the book that really stuck with
404
00:28:12.410 --> 00:28:17.100
me were things idea of heroic
credibility and again this. You know,
405
00:28:17.100 --> 00:28:19.760
they talk about culture and technology,
But a lot of this you're able to look
406
00:28:19.760 --> 00:28:23.810
at current events in the last couple of
years and see where companies have
407
00:28:23.810 --> 00:28:27.110
gotten it right and gotten it wrong.
And there are certain companies where
408
00:28:27.110 --> 00:28:30.370
they take a stand. They stand for
certain things. These values are
409
00:28:30.370 --> 00:28:35.150
important to them, and when they take a
stand is not a surprise. But I can't
410
00:28:35.150 --> 00:28:39.110
remember the term. I think he called it
militant militant branding or something
411
00:28:39.110 --> 00:28:44.910
like that, where suddenly a company
will take a stand on a larger issue.
412
00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:49.600
And it was never something they did in
the past. People are really cynical
413
00:28:49.600 --> 00:28:53.790
about that. Like, for instance, I think
one of the examples was ecological
414
00:28:53.790 --> 00:28:57.950
example that he uses in there. I think,
Yeah, there was one from Gillette where
415
00:28:57.950 --> 00:29:00.990
they've always been about, you know,
men's grooming products. And then they
416
00:29:00.990 --> 00:29:06.370
came out with an ad that talked about
toxic masculinity, and it was like Well,
417
00:29:06.370 --> 00:29:10.000
you know, you this brand hasn't been
talking about that ever, and suddenly
418
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:14.190
they do that and once some would argue
that it's not a good idea toe insult
419
00:29:14.190 --> 00:29:18.540
your target audience. This feels really
plummeted. Or another example was this
420
00:29:18.540 --> 00:29:22.410
sports sporting goods retailer in the
United States that sold a lot of
421
00:29:22.420 --> 00:29:26.540
sporting goods, including a lot of
firearms. And there was, ah, mass
422
00:29:26.540 --> 00:29:32.190
shooting using, Ah, I think in a R 15
in some place the United States and
423
00:29:32.190 --> 00:29:35.790
they said, Well, from now on, we're not
going to sell that particular model of
424
00:29:35.790 --> 00:29:40.400
weapon. And a lot of their customers
were angry because that's where they
425
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:45.200
had been buying things. But then also,
the gun manufacturers said, All right,
426
00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:49.470
well, we're just not gonna let you sell
any of our product s. So it was sort of
427
00:29:49.470 --> 00:29:51.880
like, you know, they'd always been
taking that position One thing, But
428
00:29:51.880 --> 00:29:55.280
there was serious blowback in both
instances with Gillette and this, uh,
429
00:29:55.540 --> 00:29:58.980
sporting good retailer and the one last
thing I wanna mention. They talk about
430
00:29:58.980 --> 00:30:03.070
value driven brands. So in other words,
we talk about purpose driven brands or
431
00:30:03.070 --> 00:30:08.240
Simon cynics. Great book about people
buy why you do what you dio. And they
432
00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:12.380
were arguing that it's really probably
more effective to talk about what
433
00:30:12.380 --> 00:30:17.480
values are important to your company.
More important than that, what values
434
00:30:17.480 --> 00:30:22.580
are important to your customers?
There's a big disparity between these
435
00:30:22.580 --> 00:30:28.010
companies that take a stand based on
certain values they have and to their
436
00:30:28.020 --> 00:30:31.970
great horror and surprise. Ah, lot of
times it's not important to their
437
00:30:31.970 --> 00:30:36.730
customers or it alienates their
customers. So again, I know I sound
438
00:30:36.730 --> 00:30:40.260
like a broken record. But if you're a
little more customer focused, you're
439
00:30:40.260 --> 00:30:43.780
gonna find out what's important to your
customers and a lot of those values.
440
00:30:43.780 --> 00:30:47.040
They're probably gonna intersect with
your company anyway, but you might want
441
00:30:47.040 --> 00:30:51.120
to check in with your customers. No
doubt that's 33 out of three. So far,
442
00:30:51.120 --> 00:30:54.610
books have mentioned something along
those lines, so there's a common theme
443
00:30:54.610 --> 00:30:59.680
in all of them. Well, his one take away
in this example are in. This are on
444
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:03.910
your interview is that technology has
emerged as really one of the most
445
00:31:03.910 --> 00:31:07.240
profound things in our lives now, and
it's really changed the way our brains
446
00:31:07.240 --> 00:31:10.580
work and like like we mentioned the
beginning. There's a lot of research in
447
00:31:10.580 --> 00:31:13.720
this particularly fascinating research,
I think, but he says we need to focus
448
00:31:13.720 --> 00:31:16.800
more on the human side of the equation
rather than just layering on more and
449
00:31:16.800 --> 00:31:22.130
more layers of technology, Right? And
the one thing that he thought that, uh,
450
00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:24.840
this ought to tell you how human this
book it's actually. And by the way,
451
00:31:24.840 --> 00:31:26.930
there's quite a bit of humor in this
book. To I thought it was very
452
00:31:26.930 --> 00:31:31.940
entertaining is find a way to get out
of your ego, right? Get your ego out of
453
00:31:31.940 --> 00:31:35.790
the way and go out unscripted and find
a way to get unscripted and unfiltered.
454
00:31:35.790 --> 00:31:39.110
It's honestly just gives you a license
to kind of screw up a little bit, but
455
00:31:39.110 --> 00:31:42.300
it should be easy or not. Instead of
over planning, just go out there and be
456
00:31:42.300 --> 00:31:47.000
authentic. Yeah, I have no problems
growing up, but I think I e would know
457
00:31:47.000 --> 00:31:51.570
that. But it's true. But also they talk
about just one more book. I just wish
458
00:31:51.570 --> 00:31:56.280
more companies would pay attention,
were brought to your customers. Don't
459
00:31:56.280 --> 00:32:00.940
ask them what they want. Find out what
upsets them. Find out what they like.
460
00:32:00.950 --> 00:32:06.490
Find out where the friction is in their
life. Yeah, get off my soapbox. This
461
00:32:06.490 --> 00:32:09.620
book is phenomenal, that message and
many more. I mean, there's there's five
462
00:32:09.620 --> 00:32:13.270
different rules that he basically are
the crux of the book, along with the
463
00:32:13.280 --> 00:32:16.250
research in the psychology that goes
with it. And so I think they're
464
00:32:16.250 --> 00:32:20.120
paradigm shifting insights. Be honest
on human side of technology and how to
465
00:32:20.120 --> 00:32:23.730
apply a set of rules on how to follow
those to build trust. Right? And so I
466
00:32:23.730 --> 00:32:26.240
think it applies both again to
marketing and sales professional. So
467
00:32:26.240 --> 00:32:29.530
again, two thumbs up on this one.
Absolutely. Alright, well asked up, We
468
00:32:29.530 --> 00:32:33.340
have got out bounding when new
customers with Outbound Sales and and
469
00:32:33.340 --> 00:32:36.730
Your Dependence on inbound leads by
William Skip Miller and I have a
470
00:32:36.730 --> 00:32:41.990
confession to make. I have all of Skips
books. So Skip Yeah, I'm a longtime fan.
471
00:32:42.140 --> 00:32:45.850
So for the longest time, his books
actually had two books on management,
472
00:32:45.850 --> 00:32:48.790
and they were literally the only ones
you could find in sales management on.
473
00:32:48.790 --> 00:32:51.390
And I'm happy to say that all the
principals in those books are still
474
00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:55.010
applicable today, as they were when he
wrote him. So anyway, tell us about
475
00:32:55.020 --> 00:32:58.720
Skips newest book, which is out
bounding and your interview a Skip. So
476
00:32:58.720 --> 00:33:03.770
Skip is, uh, based in Silicon Valley.
And he's done a lot of work with a lot
477
00:33:03.770 --> 00:33:09.940
of tech companies in, you know, 38
countries. And he has clients. Lisa.
478
00:33:09.950 --> 00:33:17.470
Little known companies like Apple,
Google Zoom. Yeah, small guys, But, uh,
479
00:33:17.480 --> 00:33:22.030
this book talks about, and I'm sure
this is controversial to the marketing
480
00:33:22.030 --> 00:33:27.610
people, but I don't know if you recall
James, but in the books by Anthony and
481
00:33:27.610 --> 00:33:33.350
Arino and Jeb Blunt, terrific authors.
They talk about this dichotomy of
482
00:33:33.350 --> 00:33:40.440
rainmakers versus rain barrels, which I
love. And so too many companies and
483
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:43.560
their sales people are more like rain
barrels, just kind of waiting for the
484
00:33:43.560 --> 00:33:48.380
rain to come in. And that may have
worked well 10 years ago, five years
485
00:33:48.380 --> 00:33:51.260
ago, you know, with with the inbound
marketing, which is, you know, which is
486
00:33:51.260 --> 00:33:55.090
a good thing. But there aren't that
many that rainmakers and what he's
487
00:33:55.090 --> 00:33:59.480
arguing that there are so many people
now they're trained just to qualify
488
00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:04.260
inbound leads and and work it that way
that that they become over reliant on
489
00:34:04.260 --> 00:34:08.710
that and there's a lot of markets
they're saying not in their head, but
490
00:34:08.719 --> 00:34:13.600
the other thing is that there are a lot
more people that you can reach if you
491
00:34:13.600 --> 00:34:18.830
are proactively outbound prospecting.
OK, so for those of you, say Yeah, but
492
00:34:18.830 --> 00:34:22.540
nobody answers the phone, Get over
yourself. The telephone is still one of
493
00:34:22.540 --> 00:34:25.670
most effective ways, even if you leave
a voicemail. But there's there's many,
494
00:34:25.670 --> 00:34:32.199
many, many mediums. And so he explains
that when you have an inbound lead
495
00:34:32.199 --> 00:34:36.360
coming in, it's a very different
scenario. In other words, very likely.
496
00:34:36.360 --> 00:34:42.040
It's a prospect who has sort of
identified maybe a problem or or some
497
00:34:42.040 --> 00:34:45.850
sort of change that they ought to be
looking into, right. Okay, so when you
498
00:34:45.850 --> 00:34:51.880
are out bounding, you are trying to
sell change. You see the difference
499
00:34:51.880 --> 00:34:54.929
there and again, don't lead with
products and features because they
500
00:34:54.929 --> 00:34:59.170
don't really care. You are then trying
to explain to people that they're
501
00:34:59.170 --> 00:35:03.480
standing on an ant hill and they don't
even know it. But when you do that,
502
00:35:03.480 --> 00:35:09.950
you're getting to them first, and
that's a lot less crowded field. You
503
00:35:09.950 --> 00:35:13.500
would argue, in other words, somebody
who's already looking, which is a small
504
00:35:13.500 --> 00:35:18.430
percentage of prospective customers.
They're already starting to vet people
505
00:35:18.430 --> 00:35:22.760
and figure out what their options are.
But when you are out there trying to
506
00:35:22.770 --> 00:35:27.370
make sales and and and and and outbound,
as he says, it's actually less less
507
00:35:27.370 --> 00:35:31.210
crowded because in this day and age,
everyone's waiting for the prospects
508
00:35:31.220 --> 00:35:34.160
Thio to come to them. And if that
prospect doesn't realize they have a
509
00:35:34.160 --> 00:35:37.150
problem, they're not gonna go looking.
You know, there's a lot of happy
510
00:35:37.160 --> 00:35:41.890
customers out there. So what's
surprising, though, is he said, that
511
00:35:41.900 --> 00:35:48.520
rarely does he see companies with two
different sales processes. They they're
512
00:35:48.520 --> 00:35:53.680
doing it all the same, and that's a big
problem. So a lot of this book explains
513
00:35:53.690 --> 00:35:57.450
the many, many differences, some of
which seems subtle but are very
514
00:35:57.450 --> 00:36:02.280
important about how, when you are
actively prospecting to companies that
515
00:36:02.280 --> 00:36:06.560
don't know that they might be helped
enormously from your product or service,
516
00:36:06.570 --> 00:36:10.030
it's different. And one of the biggest,
biggest things I took away from this
517
00:36:10.030 --> 00:36:13.490
book and I think he introduced it in an
earlier book which I haven't read, was
518
00:36:13.490 --> 00:36:20.160
the A T l vs B t l above the line
versus below the line. And what he's
519
00:36:20.160 --> 00:36:25.570
talking about is when you are selling
to a below the line you might be
520
00:36:25.570 --> 00:36:29.170
selling to an end user. You know the
person that's worried, they're
521
00:36:29.170 --> 00:36:34.040
concerned about the details and they're
very much more product focus, and the
522
00:36:34.040 --> 00:36:38.230
person who's above the line might be a
more senior person. And they are more
523
00:36:38.230 --> 00:36:44.210
concerned about bigger problems that
the company has, and by the way, an A T
524
00:36:44.210 --> 00:36:49.380
L person, they could make a budget. The
B T L is given a budget. The A T L can
525
00:36:49.380 --> 00:36:53.600
make a budget if they can see how your
product can solve one of their big
526
00:36:53.610 --> 00:36:58.270
problems or fears. And one of the
interesting things is he compared? The
527
00:36:58.270 --> 00:37:02.930
two is, he says, the 80 els above the
lines they live in the past and the
528
00:37:02.930 --> 00:37:08.310
future and the beat eels live in the
present, the here and now. So for me,
529
00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:12.530
you know, having done sales for my
agency, I was able to look back on
530
00:37:12.530 --> 00:37:18.220
every selling situation I've ever had
and immediately realized if I was
531
00:37:18.220 --> 00:37:22.830
dealing with in a T l R B t l just it
really it was like going to the eye
532
00:37:22.830 --> 00:37:25.350
doctor, and suddenly they put a lens in
front of you and it's like, Oh, my
533
00:37:25.350 --> 00:37:31.140
goodness, that's s o much clearer but
the book has ah whole lot of real
534
00:37:31.140 --> 00:37:35.240
specific stuff about, like cadences
reaching out to a prospect. You should
535
00:37:35.240 --> 00:37:40.080
have within just a certain number of
days, lots of grids. He talks a good
536
00:37:40.080 --> 00:37:45.210
bit about how to actively listen and
and also make someone feel like they
537
00:37:45.220 --> 00:37:49.270
have been heard. And, you know, no, no
surprise. Ah, lot of this is about
538
00:37:49.270 --> 00:37:54.860
following a process that can then be
evaluated and improved and and iterated.
539
00:37:54.870 --> 00:37:58.870
So what did you think? Well, he's done
a brilliant job of taking complex,
540
00:37:58.870 --> 00:38:01.890
potentially complex sale and
simplifying to above the line and below
541
00:38:01.890 --> 00:38:05.500
the line, right, just like you said.
And then and then he sort of talks
542
00:38:05.500 --> 00:38:10.170
about how they think, and these above
the line people, they try to fill gaps.
543
00:38:10.180 --> 00:38:14.210
And so he a good analogy that he uses
the train station. Yeah, that's right.
544
00:38:14.220 --> 00:38:19.230
Where basically the risk is that if
you're being single threaded in your
545
00:38:19.230 --> 00:38:22.050
approach, you're not thinking like an
above the line person because they have
546
00:38:22.050 --> 00:38:25.200
a lot of different priorities and
things that they got a juggle so you
547
00:38:25.200 --> 00:38:28.400
can introduce and address, You know,
many of those. But if you're only
548
00:38:28.400 --> 00:38:32.260
hitting one, you're gonna You're
missing the boat. Let me interrupt. He
549
00:38:32.260 --> 00:38:35.330
talks about how the below the line
person is sort of like the engineer and
550
00:38:35.330 --> 00:38:38.490
the train that's gonna pull that one
train out of the station when they're
551
00:38:38.490 --> 00:38:42.890
told you and an above the line person
they're in charge of the train station.
552
00:38:42.900 --> 00:38:46.150
They've got several tracks, they've got
several trains and they need to get
553
00:38:46.150 --> 00:38:51.020
those trains moving way. Have to tie
this book into all the other three that
554
00:38:51.020 --> 00:38:54.210
we've done so far in that we're talking
about messaging. And one of these, you
555
00:38:54.210 --> 00:38:58.220
says is Stop talking about yourself and
then you know that you're right. Has to
556
00:38:58.220 --> 00:39:03.800
be less than 120 words, right? Oh, yeah.
Really granular information and really
557
00:39:03.810 --> 00:39:08.380
voice messages. Yeah, Yeah, there's a
ton of really I I don't even know what
558
00:39:08.380 --> 00:39:11.620
the account would be. It's There's
probably a couple 100 really hardcore,
559
00:39:11.620 --> 00:39:15.220
very specific tips throughout the
entire book. And all of his books were
560
00:39:15.220 --> 00:39:20.160
like that. They're excellent that way.
So I thought it was That was good. One
561
00:39:20.160 --> 00:39:25.410
of the concepts towards the giving
prospects homework to use Thio qualify
562
00:39:25.410 --> 00:39:28.370
them right. If they get a little
homework, they're willing to jump
563
00:39:28.370 --> 00:39:31.000
through hoops. And that knows you know
how to invest your time with that. But
564
00:39:31.010 --> 00:39:36.990
not me. This other book called The
Perfect Clothes. Oh, my God, you wore
565
00:39:36.990 --> 00:39:40.480
yourself into my conscience is James
hates when I talk about his book. But
566
00:39:40.480 --> 00:39:44.730
just like the and when you're selling
to someone, there's the continuance
567
00:39:44.730 --> 00:39:47.640
versus the advanced. I have the
terminology, right? That's right.
568
00:39:47.640 --> 00:39:51.620
That's new rack. I'm not me. All right?
So I'm sorry. So you say. Well, how
569
00:39:51.620 --> 00:39:55.400
about a proposal? And they say, Okay,
sure. Well, that's, you know, it's not
570
00:39:55.400 --> 00:39:59.790
like they stuck their neck out at all
instead, Anat Vance would be okay. Well,
571
00:39:59.790 --> 00:40:02.720
can we have your boss at the next
meeting? Or, you know, there's
572
00:40:02.720 --> 00:40:07.080
something where you're having a expend
a little career equity to move this
573
00:40:07.080 --> 00:40:10.700
ahead, and so you could have 20
different steps. That's fine. Just
574
00:40:10.700 --> 00:40:14.650
gotta make so that you throw the ball
to them and they're going to hit it or
575
00:40:14.650 --> 00:40:20.900
not exactly. Exactly. Same concept. So,
um, skips one. Take away on the
576
00:40:20.900 --> 00:40:24.500
interview anyway. was, in a word,
change. Ah, customers really are
577
00:40:24.500 --> 00:40:28.280
needing help with change so focused on
how you can help the customers with
578
00:40:28.280 --> 00:40:31.860
change. Basically, is it the one thing
that he thought that and again this
579
00:40:31.860 --> 00:40:35.130
ties back to what we heard in the other
three books? Right? But you could do
580
00:40:35.130 --> 00:40:39.030
right away is be genuinely curious
about them, about your customers. Focus
581
00:40:39.030 --> 00:40:43.890
on customers. And so now we've said it
four times in a row. I think so. Like
582
00:40:43.890 --> 00:40:50.010
all Skips books, this book offers very
ultra practical processes and tips for
583
00:40:50.010 --> 00:40:53.580
succeeding in outbound sales efforts.
So again, again, two thumbs up. For me,
584
00:40:53.580 --> 00:40:56.420
this was like a knocked it out of the
ballparks out of selections that you
585
00:40:56.420 --> 00:41:00.920
had way have similar interests in books.
Otherwise I would lose you as a
586
00:41:00.920 --> 00:41:06.220
listener. Probably so so. And that is
it. So we this month books all
587
00:41:06.220 --> 00:41:09.170
phenomenal as usual. I loved all for
the So tell us what new books we've got
588
00:41:09.170 --> 00:41:13.040
coming up on the marketing podcast.
Well, the next time we gather, we'll be
589
00:41:13.040 --> 00:41:16.630
talking about five books. One of them
the first is Friday. Forward.
590
00:41:16.610 --> 00:41:20.340
Inspiration, motivation to endure week
stronger than It started By Robert
591
00:41:20.340 --> 00:41:26.110
Glacier. The Influencer Code. How to
Unlock the Power of Influencer
592
00:41:26.110 --> 00:41:32.040
Marketing by Amanda Russell Ultimate
Guide to Facebook Advertising by Perry
593
00:41:32.040 --> 00:41:37.140
Marshall, Thomas, Milos and Bob
Rigorous. The Ministry of Common Sense.
594
00:41:37.150 --> 00:41:43.500
How to Eliminate Bureaucratic Red Tape.
Bad Excuses and Corporate Bs by Martin
595
00:41:43.500 --> 00:41:48.720
Lindstrom and the smart marketing book
The Definitive Guide to Effective
596
00:41:48.720 --> 00:41:53.660
Marketing Strategies by Dan White. And
that's it for this month's B two b
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00:41:53.660 --> 00:41:56.860
growth show book. Talk to learn more
about the marketing book podcast, visit
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00:41:56.860 --> 00:42:00.020
marketing book podcast dot com and to
learn more about James and his
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00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:05.430
excellent book, The Perfect Close Visit.
Pure mirror dot com, And that's spelled
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00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:11.830
P u r e m u i r dot com. And as I
mentioned earlier, if either of us
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00:42:11.830 --> 00:42:15.120
could recommend a specific sales or
marketing book or other resource for
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00:42:15.120 --> 00:42:19.280
whatever situation you find yourself in,
connect with us on linked in, please
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00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:22.700
include a message well shot there to
figure out what it is you're trying to
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00:42:22.700 --> 00:42:26.260
learn more about. We'll do our best to
get you pointed in the right direction
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00:42:26.270 --> 00:42:32.840
and remember the words of the late
great Jim Rohn formal education will
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00:42:32.840 --> 00:42:37.890
make you a living. Self education will
make you a fortune.
607
00:42:42.200 --> 00:42:46.510
Eyes the decision maker for your
product or service. Abebe Marketer. Are
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00:42:46.510 --> 00:42:49.820
you looking to reach those buyers
through the medium of podcasting?
609
00:42:50.200 --> 00:42:55.180
Consider becoming a co host of B two B
growth. This show is consistently
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00:42:55.180 --> 00:42:59.280
ranked as a top 100 podcast in the
marketing category of Apple podcasts,
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00:42:59.290 --> 00:43:04.620
and the show gets more than 130,000
downloads each month. We've already
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00:43:04.620 --> 00:43:08.210
done the work of building the audience
so you can focus on delivering
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00:43:08.210 --> 00:43:13.210
incredible content to our listeners. If
you're interested. Email Logan at sweet
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00:43:13.210 --> 00:43:14.830
fish media dot com.
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00:43:16.630 --> 00:43:17.240
Hmm.