Aug. 8, 2022

It's Time for a New Marketing Scorecard, with Myles Madden

In this episode, Benji talks to Myles Madden, the Sr. Demand Generation Manager at Observe.AI
Discussed in this episode:
The power of holding marketing accountable to revenue numbers.
Tips for implementing new measuring metrics
How marketing can...

In this episode, Benji talks to Myles Madden, the Sr. Demand Generation Manager at Observe.AI
Discussed in this episode:
The power of holding marketing accountable to revenue numbers.
Tips for implementing new measuring metrics
How marketing can impress and delight the C-suite and sales team
Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. 2 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:23.039 Welcome into B two B growth. Everybody excited to have miles madden with me 3 00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:29.160 today. He's the senior demand generation manager at observe AI. Miles, welcome 4 00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:33.000 into B two B growth. Happy to be here. Pungi appreciate your bringing 5 00:00:33.039 --> 00:00:36.880 me on. It's gonna be a good conversation. I know we've been doing 6 00:00:36.920 --> 00:00:41.640 some work here at sweet fish on just how we think and how we measure 7 00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:45.880 our marketing efforts and and then running some social ads and all that sort of 8 00:00:45.880 --> 00:00:50.200 thing, and so that's put us in contact with miles. Miles. Before 9 00:00:50.200 --> 00:00:54.920 we jump into like conversation around measurement, just give me like your background for 10 00:00:54.960 --> 00:01:00.200 a second. Are you analytical numbers guy just like that's your nature, or 11 00:01:00.240 --> 00:01:03.359 how did this become one of those core focuses for you? Yeah, that's 12 00:01:03.359 --> 00:01:06.840 a great question. I'm definitely data informed. I know a lot of times 13 00:01:06.920 --> 00:01:11.439 we hear data driven, but there's definitely plenty of times where we're making decisions 14 00:01:11.480 --> 00:01:15.120 on inaccurate data. So I like to say I'm data informed rather than strictly 15 00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:19.280 by the by the numbers. But another thing to add there, although I'm 16 00:01:19.319 --> 00:01:23.319 data informed. When I said data, I mean both quantitative and qualitative data. 17 00:01:23.599 --> 00:01:26.079 I look at both pieces of data equally. Um, I know there's 18 00:01:26.120 --> 00:01:30.079 a ton of system the quantitative part, but I think it's really important to 19 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:34.799 look at both those pieces. But to answer your question, I'm definitely analytical, 20 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:40.239 but in the common sense of analytical. I look at the qualitative and 21 00:01:40.319 --> 00:01:44.640 quantitative aspects. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you just have seen that 22 00:01:44.760 --> 00:01:49.200 overtime. Like it's so important to hold both because otherwise, like, data 23 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:53.519 can be very misleading and if you get set up on the wrong path because 24 00:01:53.519 --> 00:01:57.760 you're just looking at the numbers like, there's there's all sorts of potential for 25 00:01:57.920 --> 00:02:01.719 wrong terms, even though the data mightbe you say that it's driving you right. 26 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:06.640 Yeah, absolutely, that's well sad. And Yeah, one point on 27 00:02:06.719 --> 00:02:09.759 that. There's there's kind of two common issues I see with with many companies. 28 00:02:09.840 --> 00:02:14.479 Number one, like I said, data inaccuracy. It's looking at data 29 00:02:14.560 --> 00:02:17.639 that's just not filtered properly or it's just not right. I mean, I 30 00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:23.439 don't need to explain that any more detail. And the other common issue I 31 00:02:23.479 --> 00:02:25.719 see within many companies is they're just looking at the wrong data, the wrong 32 00:02:25.800 --> 00:02:30.599 metrics and you can be data driven, but if you're looking at the wrong 33 00:02:30.680 --> 00:02:37.800 metrics, you may not drive the company forward because you're making decisions on metrics 34 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:40.280 that won't drive you forward. Talk to me about that a little bit more, 35 00:02:40.319 --> 00:02:44.360 like how have you seen companies get that wrong? What are the metrics 36 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:47.759 that maybe CEO S C suite holds up that you're like okay, well, 37 00:02:47.759 --> 00:02:50.960 now we're driving in the wrong direction. What are some of those maybe red 38 00:02:50.960 --> 00:02:53.319 flags for you that you're you've noticed? Yeah, yeah, we're definitely gonna 39 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:58.159 get it into this more. When we discussed the marketing measurement framework that I 40 00:02:58.199 --> 00:03:00.560 follow, but a lot of times there's there's a few things that I see 41 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:06.719 and I'll talk to this in light of communicating with executive and other departments. 42 00:03:07.319 --> 00:03:09.919 Number One, I'm sure most of us have heard this, but marketing is 43 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:15.520 typically scored on M quels or leads. Number one, leads usually defined as 44 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:21.479 a contact in a database by many companies. Unfortunately, when a tru lead 45 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:24.479 is someone with intent, not just an email address in the first and last 46 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:29.759 name. But that's one one area, and then they'll add some criteria to 47 00:03:29.800 --> 00:03:34.439 that lead and call it M Quel, which is typically some sort of promographic 48 00:03:34.520 --> 00:03:38.280 fit, maybe company size or revenue bands, maybe a job title, anything 49 00:03:38.319 --> 00:03:44.159 like that. But what's interesting a lot of companies are marketing teams are gauging 50 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:47.599 their success in those two metrics, leads around Quels, and if you look 51 00:03:47.599 --> 00:03:53.280 at the down final progression or the conversion rates of M Quel to an opportunity 52 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:57.360 or customer, it's less than one percent, and so it's not efficient. 53 00:03:57.479 --> 00:04:02.199 It's not a great representation of business growth. That's typically when you hear sales 54 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:09.439 teams saying marketing sending jump leads, because they're sending them five thousand contexts in 55 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:14.120 a database, not people that actually have intent to purchase the product. That's 56 00:04:14.159 --> 00:04:16.639 one area that I see a lot of marketing teams making wrong decisions on. 57 00:04:16.720 --> 00:04:20.680 It's just mque all volume and lead volume and then uh, and that's how 58 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:25.399 marketing is, that's how their success is defined by some leadership. And then 59 00:04:25.519 --> 00:04:28.199 I know you've got a question. I'll touch on one more. A lot 60 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:31.680 of times marketing teams will bring what I conserve Andy Metrics. So website traffic 61 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:40.160 metrics don't look at CTRS for paid social campaigns or just strictly conversions from paid 62 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:45.439 switch campaigns. And this means nothing at leadership level, right, like a 63 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:47.879 CEO could care less about how many impressions you had or the quick the rate 64 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:53.360 of add so those are some common metrics I see that marketing is scored on 65 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:59.120 or their successes seamed from that. I think are just tearful metrics and be 66 00:04:59.240 --> 00:05:03.360 candidatebut it too optimize your marketing and grow business from. I think it's interesting 67 00:05:03.360 --> 00:05:08.160 because, like, if you zoom out a little bit from both of those 68 00:05:08.199 --> 00:05:12.199 issues that you just highlighted, it comes back to like clear defined goals and 69 00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:16.920 communication and whether it's the way that marketing speaks the rest of the organization, 70 00:05:16.920 --> 00:05:20.839 like Hey, we're we're going to prove our value by just having an abundance 71 00:05:21.000 --> 00:05:24.959 of M Qs, like look at all of these emails we got, look 72 00:05:25.000 --> 00:05:28.879 at these lists we have, and then you get like such a low conversion 73 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:31.319 rate that it's like okay, cool, you hit your number. But we 74 00:05:31.399 --> 00:05:34.120 never, and this is where the communication lack of focus comes in, like 75 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:41.199 we never really established internally like what a qualified lead is. We never had 76 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:43.959 the good back and forth that got us to a point where we agreed. 77 00:05:44.319 --> 00:05:46.680 And then marketing has looked at like sure, they generated a ton of leads, 78 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:49.160 but I mean I won't use the language I want to use about what 79 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:54.120 those the quality of those leads a like. So that's that's that side. 80 00:05:54.319 --> 00:05:58.680 And then, like, I just think it's communication from both aspects. Like 81 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:02.399 if once you've clearly define mind what a qualified lead is, and then you 82 00:06:02.519 --> 00:06:08.199 clearly qualified metrics, because there are campaigns where even some vanity metrics. If 83 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:13.839 you educate up as a marketer and you tell the C suite why those metrics 84 00:06:13.879 --> 00:06:17.800 matter for just this campaign, this thing we're doing, you have an opportunity 85 00:06:17.839 --> 00:06:23.079 as a marketing leader to show that there are times for things like that, 86 00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:27.720 that actually it can drive brand right. But your CEO is not naturally going 87 00:06:27.800 --> 00:06:30.240 to be in brand world. They're probably living in demand world and you better 88 00:06:30.279 --> 00:06:34.240 have good campaigns on that side before you're just looking at impressions. So I 89 00:06:34.240 --> 00:06:39.160 think communication really stands out to me with both of those those issues. Am 90 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:42.720 I onto something there? Orgy like? Where would you wrestle with that? 91 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:46.759 Yeah, I th your your spot on with that, and that's Um, 92 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:49.800 a lot of those sales teams are scarred by marketing teams. I think marketing 93 00:06:49.879 --> 00:06:55.240 is always consistently under delivered. I shouldn't say always, that's a pretty aggressive 94 00:06:55.240 --> 00:07:00.519 comment, but marking has consistently undelivered. The metrics up in poor and so 95 00:07:00.720 --> 00:07:02.879 if I put myself in the shoes of a sales team, I would be 96 00:07:03.000 --> 00:07:08.800 upset with marketing and I wouldn't trust marketing and I would think that I need 97 00:07:08.839 --> 00:07:13.399 to go create business myself. And so when I put my perspective in terms 98 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:17.839 of sales, I completely agree why number one, communication is really important. 99 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:23.959 But why? They may even be resistant to communication even now, and that's 100 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:27.560 why this this is one of the main topics of our conversation today. But 101 00:07:27.639 --> 00:07:30.079 that's why I think it's really important that we tear down the current marketing measurement 102 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:34.360 framework and implement something new, because if we continue to say hey, with 103 00:07:34.399 --> 00:07:39.759 the M quels, we're we're going to add this different criteria to it, 104 00:07:40.120 --> 00:07:44.439 the past twenty years salespeople, I should say probably fifteen now, but the 105 00:07:44.519 --> 00:07:47.439 past fifteen years sales teams, have been hearing that we're going to change the 106 00:07:47.480 --> 00:07:51.480 criteria and m quels and the equality is going to be better. Fast forward 107 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:56.160 six months. Qualities not not better. Marketing is hitting its goal of sales 108 00:07:56.240 --> 00:08:00.040 is not, and we still have that that the states in the terms of 109 00:08:00.120 --> 00:08:05.160 sales team smells. So I agree with your communication is exceptionally important, but 110 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:09.319 marketing is almost like a little kid that lives and sales just over it. 111 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:13.759 Like. So, yeah, the clear metrics defined by sales and marketing having 112 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:18.000 some overlap and how those things work. Like I'm glad that that's becoming such 113 00:08:18.000 --> 00:08:22.439 a focal point in conversations that were even featuring on B two B growth because, 114 00:08:22.160 --> 00:08:26.959 yeah, like it's been a long time coming and I'm that's why I 115 00:08:26.000 --> 00:08:30.079 love this work and that's why I'm glad that we're gonna talk about a new 116 00:08:30.120 --> 00:08:33.639 form of scorecards. So let's go there when we want to advocate for a 117 00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:39.279 scorecard that that appropriately gets all of us on the same page. How how 118 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:43.480 have you seen, like, let's first paint a picture of not not in 119 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:46.919 the nitty gritty of like this is what's on the scorecard, but when that's 120 00:08:46.919 --> 00:08:50.840 functioning at its best, how have you seen that transform a team? And 121 00:08:50.039 --> 00:08:54.519 when people adopt this model, what can they expect long term? Yeah, 122 00:08:54.559 --> 00:09:00.559 short term, short term, it's painful. Obviously Change Management and there's disruption 123 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:03.679 to that, but long term, simply, but I just see businesses grow 124 00:09:05.039 --> 00:09:09.559 much, much more effectively and efficiently, which is great for motivation. This 125 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:13.200 new measurement framework is great for marketing creativity. So no longer do we have 126 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:18.440 the entire marketing department trying to figure out how to some how to have someone 127 00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:22.360 fill out of form, but actually communicating to the market and educating on the 128 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:26.480 market in a way that they want to be educated, and this is a 129 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:30.840 very important part, in a creative way. A lot of times when teams, 130 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:33.720 currently marketing teams, are trying to drive form fills, there's only so 131 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:39.080 you can only get so creative with that and your main priority is to get 132 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:43.159 someone fill out of field rather than educate a message and creativity severely impacted. 133 00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:48.919 So anyways, I address. It's great for rail and motivation and you're actually 134 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:56.720 aligned on growing a company rather than trying to prove the ry of your department 135 00:09:56.080 --> 00:10:00.960 or the rule of your department. So long term, yeah, I just 136 00:10:00.960 --> 00:10:05.559 paying a very pretty picture, but it's it's what I've experienced. It's much 137 00:10:05.600 --> 00:10:09.159 better than what's been happening. Yeah, because you and you alluded to this. 138 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:11.559 Like it's not going to be an overnight change. I think the last 139 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:16.039 question before we get into what you're actually measuring is are you advocating to start 140 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:20.080 with, like one to two measurements that were about to outline? What's the 141 00:10:20.120 --> 00:10:22.799 implementation process like for this, so people can have that in their minds before 142 00:10:22.840 --> 00:10:26.799 we go? Here's what you should start measuring. Here's an abundance of things 143 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:28.919 that miles was telling us to do. Like I don't want to scare anyone 144 00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:33.000 away by saying you need to throw out your old score card and now you're 145 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:37.600 doing this brand new thing. So what is the implementation process like, miles? 146 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:41.360 First I would would keep your current dashboards and your marketing measurement framework. 147 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:46.000 So don't just trash it and and move to this through marketing measurement model, 148 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:50.080 because there's going to be some pushback, especially in the short term. So 149 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:54.600 keep your current marketing measure model. The traditional model is the it's m q 150 00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:58.440 l, s q l, s Qos. Some marketing teams look at marketing 151 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:03.200 source tref no, don't see very money, but keep that. And then 152 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:07.519 the measurement framework I'm I'm about through outline create that dashboard, and so that's 153 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:13.840 that's my first piece of advice. At both dashboards running simultaneously and actually let's 154 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:16.799 stop there. Let's get into this marketing measurement framework. It will make more 155 00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:20.279 sense the point number two I was going to bring up. So let's just 156 00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:22.519 jump in through it. I like that you're saying, though, start with 157 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:26.720 measuring them side by side. I think that that's an important way to do 158 00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:28.759 it. We're not trashing something old. And then also that helps when we're 159 00:11:28.759 --> 00:11:33.960 talking about educating up in the organization or other people that you're accountable to something. 160 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:35.480 You just hey, here's what we've been doing, here's something else we're 161 00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:39.440 trying like, and then you can show the traction you're getting in the new 162 00:11:39.519 --> 00:11:41.600 system instead of, I think we're just so guilty of like all or nothing. 163 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:45.559 or I'll just speak for me, like I that's a natural tendency in 164 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:48.320 my brain that I have to combat. So, okay, we're here. 165 00:11:48.600 --> 00:11:52.120 We're ready for you to break it down. Tell us what you're advocating for, 166 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:56.159 what we should be measuring. Absolutely and one quick side note. Um. 167 00:11:56.159 --> 00:11:58.720 This kind of ties into something that I called a twenty rule. Everything 168 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:03.679 that I do is eight typical work what I do, but I leave of 169 00:12:03.679 --> 00:12:07.720 my work to experimentation, and that rule applies to something like this. This 170 00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:13.000 is an experiment. It's an experiment of a new measurement framework. So keep 171 00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:16.759 of your efforts on your current measurement framework and then this would be that of 172 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:22.879 experimentation. So yeah, let's get into this measurement framework. So there's a 173 00:12:22.480 --> 00:12:28.000 outline the marketing KPI s, and then it's kind of a a tiered system. 174 00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:31.279 So I'll go through the metrics and then the cadence at which you should 175 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:35.159 actually review these metrics and when you should be pulling away insights and when you 176 00:12:35.159 --> 00:12:39.399 should be making decisions. So starting with the first here. Like I said, 177 00:12:39.440 --> 00:12:43.840 there's three tiers here. The first here are the marketing KPIS, and 178 00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:50.039 so how I de Marketing Success is marketings. First Revenue, and that is 179 00:12:50.120 --> 00:12:54.840 business that comes through the website. It's marketing source. Number two is customer 180 00:12:54.879 --> 00:13:03.480 acquisition costs. A lot of teams will only report and advertising. CACK advertising 181 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:07.840 customer acquisition costs. I prefer to take a look at marketing cack, but 182 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:13.039 that includes his marketing tech and head count and then obviously your your advertising costs. 183 00:13:13.559 --> 00:13:16.840 Reason, and I won't to go into this and too much depth, 184 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:22.159 but the reason I like marketing over ad cack is that working does control? 185 00:13:22.440 --> 00:13:26.679 It's obviously it's tech spend and obviously the head count spend. Keep your headcount 186 00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:30.759 spend where it's at, but I think a lot of marketing teams can trim 187 00:13:31.399 --> 00:13:33.799 their tex stack. Yeah, I think we spend way too much tech, 188 00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:37.639 but that's a conversation for another time. But adding that market in cack will 189 00:13:37.679 --> 00:13:43.399 make you realize that the customer acquisition cost is so high, maybe not necessarily 190 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:46.320 because the advertising costs, maybe because we have so much stinking tech in here 191 00:13:46.360 --> 00:13:52.080 that we don't need. That's metric number two. And then metric number three 192 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:56.000 is pipeline velocity, and this is essentially how quickly revenue is moving through a 193 00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:01.600 pipeline. That's that's that first here market, source of revenue, market in 194 00:14:01.720 --> 00:14:07.440 CAC and pipeline phlosity. That's they're going to want to monitor at the monthly 195 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:11.960 level, but look at the quarterly level. So I'm I'm every day I'm 196 00:14:11.960 --> 00:14:16.799 looking at my dashboards, so I'm seeing what the revenue coming in is and 197 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:20.919 and I see those numbers, but I'm not overreacting or be becoming emotional to 198 00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:24.840 those numbers or critical of those numbers, and so I'm actually looking at the 199 00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:30.519 quarterly level, especially when you're looking at a product that has a relatively longer 200 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:35.799 sales cycle. So before I go into my second and third tier, I'll 201 00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:39.879 stop. I'm sure there may be some questions. If not, well, 202 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:43.879 I think I think it's good because you're unifying from that that base tier, 203 00:14:43.480 --> 00:14:48.480 like here's the core things we're looking at. I like the monthly cadence because 204 00:14:48.639 --> 00:14:52.600 otherwise you could be in chaos around Oh, we need to try or tweak 205 00:14:52.679 --> 00:14:56.279 or change this thing, when you don't actually have sustained period of time to 206 00:14:56.320 --> 00:14:58.759 know what's working and what's not. So I think with that first year I 207 00:14:58.759 --> 00:15:01.960 would assume, and maybe this is a bad assumption miles. You can tell 208 00:15:01.960 --> 00:15:05.519 me if it's if I'm wrong, but do you get a lot of push 209 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:07.679 back with any of those metrics? Because like to me those that's like the 210 00:15:07.720 --> 00:15:13.440 baseline of good marketing conversation. It's gonna be really hard. That's that's the 211 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:18.759 amazing thing. I'm typically not met with pushback, but I'm met with excited 212 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:26.919 curiosity. Marketing historically has not focused on true business impact. It's simulated business 213 00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:33.320 impact on culls and leads, but actually saying I'm accountable for revenue. I'm 214 00:15:33.360 --> 00:15:39.639 accountable for the costs that which we acquire customers and the scalability of the programs 215 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:43.159 that I'm running. Yeah, never getting pushed back is there's there's that excitement 216 00:15:43.200 --> 00:15:48.879 around. Okay, marketing actually wants to be accountable for something that has a 217 00:15:48.919 --> 00:15:52.320 direct, positive or negative impact on the business. And then that created that 218 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:56.480 curiosity. Okay, how are you actually going to do this? How will 219 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:00.000 you measure it? And the questions that are typically some from that. My 220 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:07.480 main kind of question would be, like to implement this? What like you're 221 00:16:07.519 --> 00:16:11.480 talking about even like tech stack, like trimming that, but like are there 222 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:15.240 key tools that you're using that you feel like are absolutely necessary for tracking some 223 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:17.320 of this, or can you do this all, like breaking it down in 224 00:16:17.360 --> 00:16:18.759 a spreadsheet, like what's the one point? Oh, version of this, 225 00:16:18.919 --> 00:16:23.080 miles actually tracking? Yeah, you can do a spreadsheet, but I have 226 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:29.360 the advise, regardless of the size of your business, to get either hubspot 227 00:16:29.399 --> 00:16:33.120 if you're a smaller business, or salesforce to want that crum so you can 228 00:16:33.120 --> 00:16:37.799 actually manage and organize the contacts and really helpful for the sales team to keep 229 00:16:37.879 --> 00:16:41.919 up to date with they should be in communication with just aligning all of us 230 00:16:41.919 --> 00:16:48.080 on the stage of context and how much revenue is being generated and pipeline velocity 231 00:16:48.080 --> 00:16:51.320 as well. Lot's great. Yeah, exactly. So, at the very 232 00:16:51.360 --> 00:16:56.840 least I suggest the crm. But there are certain things like advertising customer acquisition 233 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:00.360 costs or marketing customer acquisition costs and pipeline lost. See, those you're not 234 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:04.599 going to be able to create in the crm. So those you pull out 235 00:17:04.640 --> 00:17:10.319 and calculate those in a spreadsheet and build your grass either in whatever, whatever 236 00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:12.720 you use cruel sheets or Mael. Right on. All right, yeah, 237 00:17:12.799 --> 00:17:15.799 keep taking us through this. Go. Let's go up a tire. Alrighty. 238 00:17:15.920 --> 00:17:19.279 So next we're going to the second tier and there's two buckets in the 239 00:17:19.359 --> 00:17:26.720 second tier. Simply put, the second tier is the early indicator two business 240 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:32.160 results, that revenue in those customer acquisition costs and pipeline velocity. And so 241 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:37.079 the first bucket or quantitative metrics. In the second bucket or qualitative metrics. 242 00:17:37.599 --> 00:17:41.480 So on the quantitative side we have a metric called hero, which I'll talk 243 00:17:41.480 --> 00:17:45.759 about that in a second, and the cost per hero and then we have 244 00:17:45.839 --> 00:17:49.519 demo volume and then, depending on if you have a plg motion, you 245 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:52.839 can have your fruit trials in there now, hero. This is the really 246 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:56.119 important one, and sales teams love this. This is a high intendent revenue 247 00:17:56.160 --> 00:18:00.920 opportunity. This was created by refined labs, so I cannot take this, 248 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:04.839 uh, this new metric that was created by them. Essentially, all this 249 00:18:04.920 --> 00:18:11.599 is is an opportunity that closes at a rate of or more to a customer 250 00:18:11.880 --> 00:18:15.720 and at whatever stage there at. So some companies at Stage three, some 251 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:19.279 companies that stage two, and it's trailing six months. So it is a 252 00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:26.880 moving target. Let's say you're closing opportunities to a customer at Stage three and 253 00:18:26.920 --> 00:18:30.400 then your your context become more qualified earlier in the process and that moves to 254 00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:34.359 stage two. That's when you then align on Stage two, because that's winning 255 00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:40.559 at now. I said, sales teams love this, and it's particularly because 256 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:42.880 we're aligning on a metric that says, Hey, guys, you will win 257 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:48.240 one out of every four opportunities. Sales teams love that. I give you 258 00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:52.279 four people and guaranteed you you to close one, and marketings needs are shaking 259 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:57.319 if they've never heard this before, and it's that's the thing. It's it's 260 00:18:57.319 --> 00:19:02.519 definitely a hard metric to hit. That's what makes successful marketers and that's what 261 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:07.319 grows companies. The sales teams love it because no longer are we sending them 262 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:11.680 trash leads and marketing teams are again accountable for Revenue Um. And then under 263 00:19:11.720 --> 00:19:17.519 that there's obviously demo volume, which is typically the conversion point that will source 264 00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:19.599 most of your opportunities or, if you have a P L G motion, 265 00:19:19.599 --> 00:19:23.720 those free trials. so that's on the quantitative side and we'll also want to 266 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:27.680 look at the cost for those metrics because that will give you an idea of 267 00:19:27.720 --> 00:19:33.200 your customer acquisition costs will increase your decrease earlier on. So then we look 268 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:41.079 at the qualitative side and there's essentially two things I do on the qualitative metrics. 269 00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:45.720 There's sales feedback, and so I'm actually going to sales and asking them 270 00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:52.200 about contacts and opportunities the quality of them. I'm doing my my own, 271 00:19:52.599 --> 00:19:56.079 uh, primary market research, so going and talking to buyers in the market. 272 00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:00.599 But the other important metric is self, for word attribution, and this 273 00:20:00.680 --> 00:20:07.079 is another tactic that was led by refined labs or created by refined labs, 274 00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:12.119 and this metric is an open text required field on your high intendent conversion points 275 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:17.680 on your website. Typically that that demo, scheduled demo form, and that's 276 00:20:17.720 --> 00:20:21.599 what creates the demand. That's where people I actually type in what built their 277 00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:25.720 affinity with your brand, what made them aware of your product or solution, 278 00:20:26.119 --> 00:20:30.799 and so now you can understand what created the demand through that self report attribution, 279 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:34.519 and then you also know what captured the demand or what channel being direct 280 00:20:34.599 --> 00:20:41.680 or paid search or organic search. So those are the two buckets. Quantitative 281 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:45.880 hero and the cost for hero, Demo volume or free trial volume, and 282 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:51.680 then qualitative primary market research, research with sales team and that self report attribution. 283 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:56.880 When I look at hero in self reported attributions sort of on like two 284 00:20:56.920 --> 00:21:02.759 sides of the scale, I think those things like are so necessary in tandem 285 00:21:02.799 --> 00:21:06.599 and I love that it's just an open fields. We've been doing that a 286 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:11.839 lot longer since Chris Walker started first advocating that for who knows how long ago 287 00:21:11.880 --> 00:21:14.440 that was. At this point I know we've been doing it for well over 288 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:18.880 a year, but I think of all the arguments that happened internally in orders 289 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:23.839 around attribution and and figuring that out while at the same time they're not measuring 290 00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:30.319 their marketing teams by high intent revenue opportunities like there's you've got to partner those 291 00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:33.519 things in tandem, and so I can like, hopefully you're all y'all are 292 00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:36.960 connecting the dots as you're listening to this as to how those things happen in 293 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:40.880 tandem. And this is my follow up question on self reported attribution. For 294 00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:44.440 you, miles, like if you've created some complex system. I know there's 295 00:21:44.440 --> 00:21:48.440 people listening right now that exists in some complex attribution system. They have attribution 296 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:53.039 software, there are like deep in it and then they hear this. If 297 00:21:53.079 --> 00:21:57.119 you're a marketer on that type of team, how do you start better advocating 298 00:21:57.119 --> 00:22:02.319 for self report attribution? You just start put throwing it in, testing it, 299 00:22:02.599 --> 00:22:04.400 like like what you were saying earlier. or any any thoughts there? 300 00:22:04.839 --> 00:22:10.480 So this is this is a very easy shift, and so it's something called 301 00:22:10.640 --> 00:22:15.599 hybrid attribution. Historically, what marketing teams have done is software based attribution, 302 00:22:17.079 --> 00:22:22.240 like you said, it's it's teams that are looking at what's been attributed by 303 00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:26.279 a software, by Hubspot, by Dream Data. What teams haven't done is 304 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:30.640 looked at the self report attribution. And when I say hybrid attribution, it's 305 00:22:30.640 --> 00:22:36.400 bringing those together. So these teams should absolutely be looking at software based attribution, 306 00:22:36.559 --> 00:22:41.599 because that attribution tells you how the demand was captured, how they entered 307 00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:47.160 your pipeline self. Report attribution, which is just another column in your Dashboard 308 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:52.559 or your spreadsheet, tells you how the how the demand was created. And 309 00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:56.000 so now we know how people found out about us, how people found out 310 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:00.839 about our product or category and then how they entered her pipeline, and that 311 00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:07.200 tells a fuller story. So it's it's honestly very simple shift for teams that 312 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.359 are very focused on attribution. And when you think of the hero metric, 313 00:23:12.119 --> 00:23:17.759 what's the like biggest pushback you get on getting getting to that? Because obviously 314 00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:19.880 it's going to be an easy selling point for a sales team and I think 315 00:23:19.880 --> 00:23:25.240 it's a unifier. But after you've worked with several teams and like, I 316 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:27.960 know we're even trying to right now, like we're not doing this effectively out 317 00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:30.880 because we're right in the beginnings of it. But I'm like, what's the 318 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:37.920 biggest pushback or the hardest part of implementing that? The hero metric or the 319 00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:44.680 hybrid attribution hero metric? Okay, the hardest part is the mindset shift and 320 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:48.839 the short term disruption, and what I mean by that. This is difficult 321 00:23:49.119 --> 00:23:56.039 for teams with a large str sales organization, and the reason being is to 322 00:23:56.359 --> 00:24:03.839 hit it's certain hero volume. Your marketing execution has to change the book downloads 323 00:24:03.960 --> 00:24:07.839 and Webinars, and I've got no issue with Webinars, but they're typically associated 324 00:24:07.880 --> 00:24:12.960 with just a bunch of calls and another the generation tactic. Teams have to 325 00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:18.000 move away from that and actually educate the market and that can be things like 326 00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:22.440 running a podcast or, if you're running linkedin ads or facebook ads, ditching 327 00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:30.079 the Legion campaign objective and introducing reach campaign objectives. We're educating people in feed 328 00:24:30.079 --> 00:24:33.559 around your product, around your category, or even thought leadership to build the 329 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:38.519 affinity with that brand. And so what happens? Because we ditch these lead 330 00:24:38.559 --> 00:24:45.359 generation initiatives? Lead volume and M que volume decreases, but the interesting part 331 00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:52.640 is that qualified pipeline and heroes are not impacted and actually increase. So for 332 00:24:52.720 --> 00:24:56.519 these larger sales organizations it's much more difficult because now they have a hundred strs 333 00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:00.680 that they're like hey, some of our strs, we don't know how you 334 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:04.400 all are going to eat exactly you said. I don't know, I won't 335 00:25:04.440 --> 00:25:08.640 be able to eat. And so it's much easier for earlier on organizations with 336 00:25:08.720 --> 00:25:12.000 immature sales teams, or it's probably not the right word, with smaller sales 337 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:17.359 teams, to shift to this model. For teams that have larger sales organizations, 338 00:25:17.640 --> 00:25:21.240 ALWOULD SUGGEST A it's gonna be a while, it's gonna take a long 339 00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:26.799 time, but still run your lead generation activities, find the the generation programs 340 00:25:26.799 --> 00:25:30.000 that have the lowers, lowest cost per lead to still have that running. 341 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:34.079 So you can have that lead volume but then shift a good percentage of your 342 00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:41.799 efforts to create man capture demand motion. So you're kind of easing easing the 343 00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:48.359 new marketing approach. And Yeah, I only was in sales miles for like 344 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:55.319 seven or eight months, but that imagining how now, with the create demand, 345 00:25:55.359 --> 00:25:57.559 captured demand, all that conversation and being so much more in tune with 346 00:25:57.559 --> 00:26:03.319 it than I was at that point. I imagine our team and how it 347 00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:06.279 would have impact us, because we were pretty early on. We didn't have 348 00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:08.519 too many we didn't have the problem of too many sales people. We had 349 00:26:08.880 --> 00:26:14.920 a problem not educating the market and it would have been a game changer for 350 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:18.839 us to have people that were creating content that they were putting in front of 351 00:26:18.839 --> 00:26:23.240 the right types of people. And then, as someone who often was like 352 00:26:23.400 --> 00:26:27.200 calling in and just trying to book the Demo, I was talking to people 353 00:26:27.200 --> 00:26:33.279 that were highly like they were not informed and they were super busy and they 354 00:26:33.400 --> 00:26:36.920 did like wrong place, wrong time, wrong part of the pipe, and 355 00:26:36.920 --> 00:26:38.960 I'm just trying to get them to the demo as fast as possible. So 356 00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:41.599 now seeing all of this side of things, man, it has been like 357 00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:45.000 just a light bulb went off in my head and so I hope that's happening 358 00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:48.799 for listeners, whether you're on sales or marketing side. But it's uh, 359 00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:52.920 it's amazing. Go, go up one more tier. Yeah, I'M gonna 360 00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:55.839 go one more tier. I just I just wanna make a note. One 361 00:26:55.839 --> 00:26:59.839 more thing. Okay, this this shift, and this this is kind of 362 00:27:00.000 --> 00:27:02.720 if this is based off something you just said, which I find is really 363 00:27:02.759 --> 00:27:08.119 interesting. There's a phenomenon called str or b Dr Burnout. That's typically because 364 00:27:10.000 --> 00:27:12.480 number one sales just a hustle, which that is where its sales as a 365 00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:17.079 hustle, but a lot of these stairs and BDR is because the marketing teams 366 00:27:17.079 --> 00:27:22.480 are finding a legion model. You're calling people or emailing people and having to 367 00:27:22.559 --> 00:27:27.720 contact them five to ten times and you're met typically with resistance and sometimes anger. 368 00:27:29.440 --> 00:27:32.880 Hey, stop calling me, you've called me five times, and I 369 00:27:32.880 --> 00:27:37.680 think that is a big contributor to SDR burnout. Alternatively, if you you 370 00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:41.599 make the shift to this new marketing approach, imagine if you're an str and, 371 00:27:42.039 --> 00:27:45.599 seven times out of ten you pick up the phone or email someone, 372 00:27:47.079 --> 00:27:53.039 they're either excited because you're a brand that everyone loves. I was talking to 373 00:27:53.200 --> 00:27:56.480 Carl it refined labs. You work for help spot, and you said it 374 00:27:56.519 --> 00:28:00.960 was great being on sales there because people just wanted to react with an individual 375 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:06.079 hubspot Um. So that's one benefit. You're met with enthusiasm because people love 376 00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:08.960 your your brand, and then number two, you're at with people that actually 377 00:28:10.279 --> 00:28:14.559 want to purchase your product. They're excited to purchase your product, and so 378 00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:18.960 I think a kind of a side benefit of this whole new marketing approach that 379 00:28:19.119 --> 00:28:25.640 only is a positive impact on business, but always str is get relax a 380 00:28:25.680 --> 00:28:29.880 little bit and enjoy their work environment and actually enjoy the role in the position. 381 00:28:30.440 --> 00:28:33.319 I gotta say one follow up thing there, because I think what's interesting 382 00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:37.359 about that is when you think about companies scale, oftentimes they don't, they 383 00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:42.200 couldn't implement what we're talking about because they don't have anyone that's in any sort 384 00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:48.000 of marketing function early enough. So your SDR team, your sales team, 385 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:52.279 is like potentially growing faster than what's happening on the marketing side, which I 386 00:28:52.359 --> 00:28:56.359 get it in the old form, but if you have no one sitting in 387 00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:00.519 those seats that's able to properly educate the market and you have an a sales 388 00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:03.839 team that just needs to sell but they haven't educated properly, you're gonna have 389 00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:10.440 this really weird lack of balance that's very common in early stage SAS companies that 390 00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:15.440 don't have a marketing department yet, and that's that's where there's I know not 391 00:29:15.519 --> 00:29:17.920 everyone is in that stage, so this part of the conversation might not be 392 00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:21.279 applicable to you, but those that are you're feeling that, I'm sure, 393 00:29:21.359 --> 00:29:23.920 because your sales team is just doing the cold calls, just doing the emails 394 00:29:25.279 --> 00:29:29.039 and they're not they're hitting the ceiling of lack of education in the market. 395 00:29:29.519 --> 00:29:33.440 That happens on the marketing side. If you could get SDR that has this 396 00:29:33.559 --> 00:29:38.039 mindset and could could function and like a marketer but also sales role. That's 397 00:29:38.079 --> 00:29:42.839 the dream. That is so all SID man. That is too good. 398 00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:45.920 All right, let's let's keep this thing moving, man. I don't want 399 00:29:45.920 --> 00:29:48.279 to I don't want to stick on it forever, but let's let's go the 400 00:29:48.279 --> 00:29:52.480 next year. This is this is great. So now we've covered our marketing 401 00:29:52.519 --> 00:29:55.519 KPI is, which our first tier or second tier, which was our early 402 00:29:55.519 --> 00:30:00.440 indicators, and now we're going through this third tier, which is channel level 403 00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:04.359 KPIS. And so each channel, depending on the nature of the channel, 404 00:30:04.559 --> 00:30:11.880 is going to have different kpis because humans use them differently. Email is different 405 00:30:11.000 --> 00:30:18.079 than Linkedin, for example, and so by channel it creates quantitative and qualitative 406 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:25.119 Kpis for those channels that show me if my performance is improving in the channel 407 00:30:25.440 --> 00:30:29.039 or maybe what's working and what's not working. And so, using linked in 408 00:30:29.240 --> 00:30:33.799 organic for example, maybe the KPIS that I set our views to a post 409 00:30:34.400 --> 00:30:41.599 and let's get three metrics used to our posts, engagement rate and then follower 410 00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:45.359 volume. Say those are are three quantitative metrics for Linkedin. We want those 411 00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:49.359 to increase. Over time, but we can also gain daily or weekly insights 412 00:30:49.359 --> 00:30:53.119 from those metrics. And then, on the qualitative side, depending on the 413 00:30:53.160 --> 00:30:57.240 nature of the platform, what what the buyers or customers are actually saying? 414 00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:02.240 And so a lot of times it's what are they commenting? Are They D 415 00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:03.720 M in you? What are they D M and you for, if we're 416 00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:07.640 continuing with this lengthen example, and so the kidenceaid I like to look at 417 00:31:07.680 --> 00:31:12.160 this is a daily, depending on your your position, or weekly level as 418 00:31:12.200 --> 00:31:17.839 a team, because it shows at a very micro level what's working what's not 419 00:31:17.880 --> 00:31:21.839 working, both from from the numbers but also the feedback from your market, 420 00:31:22.319 --> 00:31:29.079 and it spurs obviously future creation for talking about content in this context, by 421 00:31:29.160 --> 00:31:32.839 marrying those two types of metrics together, those two types of data, you 422 00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:37.440 can understand what your market is interested in and then it continues to improve in 423 00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:42.319 performance because you're delivering to the market what they want to talk about. We're 424 00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:45.440 we're like sover, like a d m or something like that. When it's 425 00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:49.799 a social share, like what our Best Practices to actually collect that? Like 426 00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:55.039 I know for us we have slack. That's always just we have a winds 427 00:31:55.160 --> 00:31:56.920 channel. So when we see something come through hubspot. That's where it lives. 428 00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:00.160 We've talked about that on here before, our marketing channel. If we 429 00:32:00.160 --> 00:32:04.000 see any great mentions or you know, one of us was on a different 430 00:32:04.039 --> 00:32:07.079 podcast and there's great, good comments. Is there a better way that we're 431 00:32:07.119 --> 00:32:10.079 missing or is that? Is that a good start? Yeah, I don't. 432 00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:15.319 I don't think you necessarily have to collect the qualitative data. I think 433 00:32:15.839 --> 00:32:20.079 copying and pasting every D M and every comment and through spreadsheet, sure your 434 00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:24.559 boss, would be a complete waste of time, but it's it's this responsibility 435 00:32:24.599 --> 00:32:30.200 is typically on the manager, and it's too. What I like to do, 436 00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:34.720 the manager of the platform. I mean, is to take screenshots of 437 00:32:34.759 --> 00:32:39.839 the actual conversations and show that to either leadership or the lead of marketing, 438 00:32:40.039 --> 00:32:45.160 marketing lead, to show, Hey, this is uh, some pushback we 439 00:32:45.240 --> 00:32:47.880 got on this topic, for this is a question we got. Or here's 440 00:32:47.880 --> 00:32:52.079 a screen shot of hundred people. You can hit the command minus, minus 441 00:32:52.200 --> 00:32:59.039 zoom out on your back through's screenshot of a hundred people that are perfectly that 442 00:32:59.079 --> 00:33:02.480 are are perfect the CP they're saying. This is amazing. This helped me 443 00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:07.759 so much, this provided so much value in my professional life and so it's 444 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:12.200 uh, yeah, it's not not collecting that data. Are Storing it in 445 00:33:12.200 --> 00:33:15.279 a place, but collecting that data in terms of screenshots, adding them to 446 00:33:15.319 --> 00:33:22.920 a presentation and communicating with the marketing lead what signals that qualitative data is providing. 447 00:33:23.319 --> 00:33:27.160 Did you say there was a qualitative and quantitative side to this part, 448 00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:32.519 or just the qualitative? The quantitative are the channel specific metrics, using the 449 00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:40.279 Lenkedin example, follower volume page leaks views of the posts. Yea Perfect man. 450 00:33:40.359 --> 00:33:45.480 This is so helpful and I think now people with a picture, they're 451 00:33:45.480 --> 00:33:47.160 going like, okay, I understand, I'm not going to just like go 452 00:33:47.240 --> 00:33:52.079 and implement this tomorrow, which is why we advocated at the front end like 453 00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:58.079 hey, start with the two different DASHBOARDS, start getting this stuff rolling. 454 00:33:58.440 --> 00:34:00.440 Hero is going to take along. If you have nothing like that type of 455 00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:04.759 metric. Hero is probably the most would you say that's the most complex part 456 00:34:04.759 --> 00:34:08.360 of this? Getting people centered around that? Yeah, getting them centered around 457 00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:14.360 this new measurement framework, and then just the change from marketing being measured on 458 00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:19.280 leads and M quels to being accountable for revenue and why. That is important 459 00:34:19.960 --> 00:34:23.440 for sure. Okay, well, anything, as we start to wrap up 460 00:34:23.440 --> 00:34:27.119 this episode, miles that you're going. Okay, just be sure as you 461 00:34:27.519 --> 00:34:30.760 move into implementing that you watch out for this or stay checked in on this, 462 00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:36.440 like last little warnings before we start to wrap. Yeah, so that's 463 00:34:36.480 --> 00:34:39.280 piece of advice I always like give. Is the data wins. And so, 464 00:34:39.639 --> 00:34:46.039 especially transitioning from this marketing being measured on M quels now marketing being attributed 465 00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:52.440 to revenue. Actually show the conversion rates to an Mquele, actually from m 466 00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:57.440 cul to customer and how dismal that is, the extremely high customer acquisition costs 467 00:34:57.440 --> 00:35:02.360 and the long sales cycles, and then help leadership along with that journey, 468 00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:07.000 continue to show them that those metrics that hey, sales cycle is is dwindling 469 00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:12.840 for now closing someone in forty days instead of ninety, our customer acquisition costs 470 00:35:12.840 --> 00:35:19.679 are are have reduced by so constantly providing data and telling that story. That's 471 00:35:19.679 --> 00:35:23.440 probably the most common mistake I see when marketing teams make this transition is that 472 00:35:23.480 --> 00:35:29.599 they don't use data to help back the story. They talking hypotheticals. This 473 00:35:29.679 --> 00:35:31.880 is going to work, this will work um and I don't help guide that 474 00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:36.880 journey off the data. So yeah, but other than that, I mean 475 00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:39.960 if you can do that, you're you're going to have a pretty successful transition 476 00:35:40.039 --> 00:35:45.880 from leads to revenue. Fantastic. Well, I appreciate you spending time here 477 00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:50.280 with us and breaking this down. For people that want to stay connected to 478 00:35:50.360 --> 00:35:52.360 you, what's the best way for them to do that, and then talk 479 00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:55.880 a little bit about your new Gig at observe a I. We'd love to 480 00:35:57.039 --> 00:36:00.320 hear a little bit about what you are up to there as well. Yeah, 481 00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:04.119 absolutely. You can find me on Linkedin, miles madden. I'm on 482 00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:07.960 Linkedin every day. Feel free to send me a dam and I took respond 483 00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:10.320 pretty quickly, within a day or two, so I've got it's it's an 484 00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:14.599 open door. I'm always free to talk. As far as AB survey, 485 00:36:14.679 --> 00:36:19.440 I physician. There's in your demand generation manager. So, simply put, 486 00:36:19.480 --> 00:36:22.519 helping these guys grow and and hopefully become a public company. I won't go 487 00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:28.039 into depth there, but yeah, sisting with marketing leadership and in terms of 488 00:36:28.119 --> 00:36:32.559 execution and strategy. Fantastic. Well, this has been a really insightful conversation 489 00:36:34.119 --> 00:36:37.239 and we're always trying to do that here on B two B growth. We 490 00:36:37.280 --> 00:36:40.800 want to fuel new ways of thinking and we want to help you and your 491 00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:45.599 marketing team continue to win. So if you haven't followed the podcast yet, 492 00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:47.960 you can do that so you never miss an episode. You can talk to 493 00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:51.719 me over on Linkedin as well. Would love to hear from you and talk 494 00:36:51.760 --> 00:36:55.440 about marketing, business life and keep doing work that matters. Will be back 495 00:36:55.519 --> 00:37:00.400 real soon with another episode. Miles, thanks so much for being your mouth. 496 00:37:12.239 --> 00:37:15.840 If you enjoy today's show, hit subscribe for more marketing goodness. And 497 00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:19.280 if you really enjoyed today's show, take a second to rate and review the 498 00:37:19.320 --> 00:37:22.400 podcast on the platform you're listening to it on right now. If you really 499 00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:27.280 really enjoyed this episode, share the love by texting it to a friend who 500 00:37:27.320 --> 00:37:30.440 would find it insightful. Thanks for listening and thanks for sharing.