Lessons in Emotional Marketing, with Jeff Biesman

WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B Growth. 2 00:00:16.719 --> 00:00:20.320 Hello and welcome into B two be Growth. I'm your host, Benji Block, 3 00:00:20.440 --> 00:00:25.120 and today I have Jeff Beastman with me cmo over at National Debt Relief 4 00:00:25.199 --> 00:00:28.960 and Reach Financial, and Jeff, thanks for coming on the show. Hey, 5 00:00:29.039 --> 00:00:32.600 Benji, it's great to be here, great to be recording this with 6 00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:37.719 you, and excited to get going. Yes, I know. I'll just 7 00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:41.920 give you a peek behind the curtain real quick for things that have been happening 8 00:00:41.920 --> 00:00:44.799 on B two B Growth. So I've been the host for like the last 9 00:00:44.799 --> 00:00:48.920 twelve months or so, and I can't tell you, Jeff, how many 10 00:00:48.960 --> 00:00:52.840 times I've ended up in conversations where B two B and B two C end 11 00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:57.119 up compared and contrasted, and uh, you know, here's the similarities. 12 00:00:57.200 --> 00:01:00.640 Here's things we should maybe especially for us on the B two B side, 13 00:01:00.719 --> 00:01:03.040 like take from B to C and you and I in our pre call sort 14 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:06.760 of ended up in one of those conversations. So I kind of want to 15 00:01:06.799 --> 00:01:11.200 go there a little bit today because you've spent time in both worlds, So 16 00:01:11.640 --> 00:01:15.480 talk to us a little bit about that, maybe give us some context for 17 00:01:17.239 --> 00:01:21.000 the work you've done on in both B two B and B two C and 18 00:01:21.040 --> 00:01:25.799 how that has informed you as a CMO. Yeah. Absolutely, So A 19 00:01:25.879 --> 00:01:30.959 quick little story to sort of set context. Um. The first I don't 20 00:01:30.959 --> 00:01:34.040 know, like twenty years in my career or something like that. Boy, 21 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:41.359 I'm dating myself, But the first part of my career was all like D 22 00:01:41.480 --> 00:01:46.120 two see, you know, big big brands across the wide variety of industries. 23 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:51.640 And I had an opportunity to go to work for a company called Hype, 24 00:01:51.640 --> 00:01:55.280 which used to be the Yellow Pages, and that was a two sided 25 00:01:55.319 --> 00:02:00.120 marketplace, consumer and business, and most of the revenue comes from the B 26 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:06.040 two B side. And as I was thinking through the role, it's just 27 00:02:06.159 --> 00:02:09.919 like dawned on me that you know, there's this pyramid of the SMB to 28 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:17.199 enterprise marketplace, but it's dominated by mostly small and micro businesses. Right, 29 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:24.400 That's like what scent depending on the stats, and most of those people my 30 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:30.360 thesis and I think it's been validated many many times. They behave like consumers. 31 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:35.039 If you think about the solo preneurs, the single shingle, I'm the 32 00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:38.439 only employer. I have four people that work for me. Is like part 33 00:02:38.520 --> 00:02:43.520 kind of contractors. They may have an LC, they may not, doesn't 34 00:02:43.560 --> 00:02:49.319 matter. But what matters is they're making decisions the way they make decisions, 35 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:53.240 purchase decisions in just about every other part of their life, like a consumer 36 00:02:53.319 --> 00:02:59.439 with air consumers. Right, So there's this fallacy that there's this big gap 37 00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:06.560 or divide it in terms of like how you approach somebody that's a consumer and 38 00:03:06.719 --> 00:03:10.840 somebody that's a business owner. They don't switch hats and their brain doesn't necessarily 39 00:03:10.960 --> 00:03:15.919 switch. And I'll explain that in a minute, in terms of how they 40 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:21.960 process information and make decisions. So for me, they may be slightly asymmetrical, 41 00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:24.080 but there's a lot of overlap in what you know, a day TAC 42 00:03:24.319 --> 00:03:30.319 or a director consumer marketer can bring to be to be and there's a lot 43 00:03:30.360 --> 00:03:34.800 that a B two B marketer can learn by looking over at what great director 44 00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:39.479 consumer brands are doing. Yeah, so we'll dive into that deeper over the 45 00:03:39.520 --> 00:03:45.280 next several minutes, but I wonder at a base level for you, maybe 46 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:50.719 could you unify our definition when you say like emotional marketing, what does that 47 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:53.719 mean to Jeff? What are you imagining in your mind when you hear emotional 48 00:03:53.719 --> 00:04:00.280 marketing? Let me start with this. I love I'm in Sinek and I 49 00:04:00.360 --> 00:04:06.520 love the Ted talk he did on why, and I mean it just it 50 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:10.479 just hits me. I watch it like every now and then and I'm like, 51 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:15.319 oh my gosh. And there's a part of when he sets up the 52 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:19.800 Golden circle, what the how and the why and why the why is what 53 00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:24.800 you've got to focus on, and everybody focuses on the what or the how 54 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:31.319 instead, which is very like and this and a septic or clinical kind of 55 00:04:31.319 --> 00:04:34.920 like feature driven. You know, our product is better because blah blah blah 56 00:04:34.920 --> 00:04:40.439 blah blah. The primitive part of our brain, which I believe is the 57 00:04:40.519 --> 00:04:45.680 limbic part, is the part of our brain that doesn't understand language, but 58 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:49.279 it makes every decision that governs what we do, and it is driven off 59 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:55.800 of emotion. So like, I work in financial services, and it's really 60 00:04:55.839 --> 00:05:01.879 ironic because it's just dawned on me that money isn't doesn't feel super emotional, 61 00:05:02.000 --> 00:05:06.399 right. It's kind of like people don't get into finance because they're go into 62 00:05:06.399 --> 00:05:12.519 an entertainment or something that's kind of emotionally like resting in for them. But 63 00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:17.040 very decision that we make, including ones that have to do with finances are 64 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:21.560 emotionally driven. Period. That's the part of the brain that makes that decision. 65 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:26.839 You try to rationalize it with the other party of brain, the neo 66 00:05:26.959 --> 00:05:30.920 cortex, but that limbic part of the brain is what does it all So 67 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:34.959 to me, it's tapping into that and you don't tap into it with the 68 00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:40.920 water that how it's the why you've got to get people to care. You've 69 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:45.920 got to get you've got to motivate them. And emotional marketing is all about 70 00:05:46.040 --> 00:05:51.680 understanding those psychological motivators and what is driving somebody to make a decision. And 71 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:57.000 not to get too nerdy, but there's actually seven of them, and you 72 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:00.120 know, knowing those levers and how to pull them and when to pull hold 73 00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:03.759 them and in what proportion is everything And so that's what we're talking about when 74 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:10.319 we're talking about emotional marketing. You're saying seven levels of essentially that you could 75 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:16.680 pull in emotional marketing. There's things like flattery, exclusivity, uh, fear 76 00:06:16.879 --> 00:06:24.399 is obviously one of them's salvation. Each one of those are the things that 77 00:06:24.800 --> 00:06:28.560 you know, if they resonate or they hit the cord, they hit that 78 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:30.439 inner part of that brain, that primitive brain, and that's what gets you 79 00:06:30.480 --> 00:06:36.399 to act. And you may rationalize it, but it's the fear, it's 80 00:06:36.439 --> 00:06:42.240 the exclusivity, it's the flattery, the self, whatever it is that's literally 81 00:06:42.319 --> 00:06:46.160 driving that decision. And so your ability to understand that and articulate it instead 82 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:51.560 of just talking about my product is better than their product because it's cheaper or 83 00:06:51.720 --> 00:06:57.120 faster or whatever, is not going to get it done. So you have 84 00:06:57.199 --> 00:07:00.800 to go deeper and begin to integrate that into how you got to market. 85 00:07:00.759 --> 00:07:05.839 I think that's part of where an undrum kind of confounds larger B two B 86 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:11.079 companies because, like what you said, I've been in situations selling situations, 87 00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:16.319 not even on the marketing side where it was me maybe cold calling, in 88 00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:20.319 in a sales situation where it was basically me just getting to talk to the 89 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:25.319 decision maker in a B two B environment and it was emotional and they could 90 00:07:25.360 --> 00:07:27.959 make the decision and they did have the budget and it was just like okay, 91 00:07:28.000 --> 00:07:30.800 sweet, sign me up for the demo or stop talking to me right 92 00:07:30.800 --> 00:07:33.800 like they just gave me their answer right there, Jeff. But once you 93 00:07:33.839 --> 00:07:40.000 get into the bigger B two B buying environments, that's where things get complicated 94 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:45.879 because you're unsure oftentimes how do we bring in emotional marketing when there's things like 95 00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:49.279 a buying committee or the weight of the decision and the price in and of 96 00:07:49.319 --> 00:07:53.600 itself is much larger. So you're like, oh, maybe I need to 97 00:07:54.160 --> 00:08:00.439 appeal more to statistics and the how you know, and the what What would 98 00:08:00.480 --> 00:08:05.079 you say to those larger, maybe enterprise type marketers listening right now, who 99 00:08:05.079 --> 00:08:09.360 are going I want to bring emotional marketing in because I know it's still people 100 00:08:09.639 --> 00:08:15.399 that I'm talking to, but it just seems more complicated. Yeah, I 101 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:18.839 get it, And and that's a that's a valid point, Benji. And 102 00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:22.759 here's a couple of First of all, validate what you said. The majority 103 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:26.319 of the B two B marketplaces is the bottom right, obviously, and that's 104 00:08:26.360 --> 00:08:31.480 where the masses live, and so you're dealing usually with the single decision maker. 105 00:08:31.879 --> 00:08:35.480 Sometimes it could be like a law practice with four lawyers and you've got 106 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:39.159 to get all four on the same page. And that resembles a little bit 107 00:08:39.159 --> 00:08:45.240 more of what you see on the enterprise side. But there's gate keepers, 108 00:08:45.279 --> 00:08:50.679 there's influencers, and there's decision makers and all of that stuff. I haven't 109 00:08:50.720 --> 00:08:54.840 spent a lot of my career on the enterprise side. However, I've been 110 00:08:54.600 --> 00:09:00.559 on the other side of that. I've been the recipient of marketing and sales 111 00:09:00.600 --> 00:09:05.759 pitches and you have to put yourself and this is my best advice for somebody 112 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:11.639 that's operating at an enterprise level. Put yourself in the shoes of all of 113 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:15.519 those people, and what are their objectives? Some of them, I hate 114 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:20.320 to say it, maybe not to get fired, right, And so there's 115 00:09:20.519 --> 00:09:24.799 risk in if you're a Challenger Software, right, and you're like, we're 116 00:09:24.879 --> 00:09:30.840 better than Brand Acts, which is your incumbent. We can do X, 117 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:33.799 Y and Z, and we're gonna save your time, we're gonna save you 118 00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:39.279 money. What's the risk or what's the downside to that person? And how 119 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:43.000 to how do I leverage that in my marketing and my sales pitch to assuage 120 00:09:43.039 --> 00:09:48.960 them or alleviate that concern because you've got a lot of that complexity. You 121 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:52.960 know, it's still emotional, right, It's still an emotional thing. I 122 00:09:52.080 --> 00:09:56.799 may be looking at that and saying this all sounds great, but I have 123 00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:01.120 far more risk in, you know, going with you Challenger Brand than just 124 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:05.799 sticking here because I'm not going to get fired for that, right, And 125 00:10:05.919 --> 00:10:09.559 I'm going to kind of put it keep pushing. And I know that sounds 126 00:10:09.639 --> 00:10:16.000 really really sad and depressing, but that's what you're dealing with. So it's 127 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:18.039 sort of a different game, but it's the same idea. It's emotion, 128 00:10:18.480 --> 00:10:24.240 right, it's emotional, it's fear, it's uncertainty. It's like, I 129 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:26.279 don't know, there's too much risk, and I'm just using one example. 130 00:10:26.440 --> 00:10:31.919 So that's that's how I would apply emotional marketing sort of reverse engineer. Yeah, 131 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:37.039 I think it's so important because you can turn the emotion out of it 132 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:39.200 just because you know you're trying to appeal to a buying committee. Yet at 133 00:10:39.200 --> 00:10:43.360 the same time, if you were to just do the extra work of what 134 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:46.399 you're saying, put yourself in their shoes and think about what their common objections 135 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:50.720 are or the mind games that they're going to be having about making a bigger 136 00:10:50.759 --> 00:10:54.080 decision like this, and you can speak directly to those. There is a 137 00:10:54.120 --> 00:10:58.440 way to infuse emotion into it, but I do I mean, just look 138 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:01.000 on LinkedIn at the amount of people are advocating for emotional marketing and B two 139 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:05.480 B. Now, clearly we were absent of it for a long time, 140 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:09.320 and people are like, oh crap, I need to somehow get emotion back 141 00:11:09.320 --> 00:11:13.759 into the buying committee and into these situations where like I am. You know, 142 00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:16.759 it's the whole talking to humans thing that is everywhere on on LinkedIn as 143 00:11:16.759 --> 00:11:20.240 well, So I'm invited to that. Let's talk about some stories from your 144 00:11:20.279 --> 00:11:26.000 career, Jeff, where you can maybe showcase the importance of doing emotional marketing. 145 00:11:26.120 --> 00:11:31.360 Right, What are some specific moments where you've seen emotional marketing play itself 146 00:11:31.360 --> 00:11:35.279 out? Do you have any stories there? Yeah, I absolutely do. 147 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:43.240 And one of them is like this transformation that I've instrumented several times be to 148 00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:50.879 be an and direct to consumer away from flood based marketing and or tour and 149 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:54.840 flood meeting for for those of you that may not have heard that acronym clear 150 00:11:54.919 --> 00:12:01.840 uncertainty in doubt, which that big psychological motivators. And they work. But 151 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:07.320 here's what they work against. They work against people that are desperate. I 152 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:11.399 kind of called them the ledge jumpers. They're right at the edge of the 153 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:16.159 ledge and all you've gotta do is scare them, right, create a little 154 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:20.600 bit of fear, make them feel exposed, and man, you know, 155 00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:24.639 they're like, where do I sign up? But that's a highly transactional approach, 156 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.720 in my opinion, to pulling on the right emotional levers. There's a 157 00:12:28.799 --> 00:12:33.879 much larger audience. In my opinion, I've seen this time and time again 158 00:12:33.879 --> 00:12:39.519 that don't go for that, right. They're more sophisticated, they have a 159 00:12:39.559 --> 00:12:45.600 greater sensibility, they're more regulated in their approach, and so a couple of 160 00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:52.200 times I've transformed our marketing approach, our positioning, even our our language vehicles 161 00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:58.480 away from being just very transactionally flood driven, which by the way, isn't 162 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:03.720 great for your brand anyway, to focusing on things like hope, aspiration, 163 00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:11.320 salvation, etcetera, etcetera. We just recently had Breen Murphy on the show, 164 00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:13.679 and we we actually talked through a few of your You're overlapping with it 165 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:18.919 perfectly right now, Jeff, because he brought up specifically the achievement you know, 166 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:22.440 at the end of that hero's journey, where it's like that is enticing 167 00:13:22.960 --> 00:13:24.519 specifically more than what you just said, right, more than the fund type 168 00:13:24.559 --> 00:13:31.159 stuff that gives people like an aspirational endpoint. I credit this paradigon a while 169 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:37.879 ago when I was working at B two B that was designed to persuade a 170 00:13:37.960 --> 00:13:41.639 the I wire to move from the I Y to do it for me, 171 00:13:41.720 --> 00:13:46.279 do it with me, and some degree you've got to take them through a 172 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:50.720 little bit of that fear and that emotional value. I called it. It's 173 00:13:50.759 --> 00:13:56.039 kind of like the bottom of your articulation of why you want somebody to adopt 174 00:13:56.240 --> 00:14:03.840 service is by telling them that the I Y is really easy, and in 175 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:09.960 the process of telling them how easy it is, actually explaining to them without 176 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:15.799 words how difficult it is and how it's going to really disrupt their lives and 177 00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:18.919 be too complex and everything like that. So you do and use a little 178 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:26.240 bit of fear to get them to understand that the other side your solution is 179 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:31.120 salvation, right, And it's almost like letting him experience a little bit of 180 00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:37.720 that pain or feel what that pain might feel like without doing it to get 181 00:14:37.759 --> 00:14:41.600 into the other side, which is all about the high point or the hero's 182 00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:46.879 journey, if that makes sense. So I found that worked incredibly well to 183 00:14:46.000 --> 00:14:52.399 motivate a d I wire to adopt a service. Yeah, totally, Okay, 184 00:14:52.440 --> 00:14:58.159 So let's start trying to make this applicable for the person's listening while they're 185 00:14:58.200 --> 00:15:01.840 let's say, out for a run doing the dishes. They're in a B 186 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:05.840 two B situation where like, okay, we need to start infusing emotion into 187 00:15:05.919 --> 00:15:09.600 our marketing to a greater degree. What are some of the ways we could 188 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:15.039 do this better quickly, Jeff for marketing teams listening to this, Well, 189 00:15:15.080 --> 00:15:18.960 the first thing I would do is I would go out and brush up on 190 00:15:20.159 --> 00:15:24.759 a few things. And I know this is going to sound It sounds like, 191 00:15:24.639 --> 00:15:28.480 you know, the create What we're talking about is the creative side of 192 00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:33.200 marketing, right, not the quantitative side. But there's science behind it, 193 00:15:33.240 --> 00:15:37.679 as I was mentioning earlier Simons and Acton at ted talk. So go look 194 00:15:37.840 --> 00:15:43.759 at what you know, starting with the why and what that looks like. 195 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:46.399 It's going to be different for each of you and whatever product or service you're 196 00:15:46.440 --> 00:15:52.440 selling. But start there. The other things that I would absolutely rush up 197 00:15:52.440 --> 00:15:56.879 on up you already know it, or really deep dive into our those psychological 198 00:15:56.960 --> 00:16:00.679 motivators and how to apply them. Like I said, there are seven of 199 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:06.440 them. Do a simple Google search, understand them, look for applications. 200 00:16:06.480 --> 00:16:08.440 By the way, if you're hiring a copywriter, that's a great question to 201 00:16:08.519 --> 00:16:14.679 ask them or any kind of content person is do you understand them? How 202 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:18.879 do you use them? Because it's vital. And then the last thing this 203 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:23.039 is gonna sound maybe even weirder, but it's not just about words. It's 204 00:16:23.080 --> 00:16:27.879 also a visual design and there is a whole world of color theory that really 205 00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:36.559 good designers use. And there are actually certain colors that will evoke an emotion 206 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:40.679 depending on what it is. Like red is an example, resin alarm color. 207 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:44.320 Red is an anxiety invoking color. A lot of people use a lot 208 00:16:44.360 --> 00:16:48.080 of red uh in certain places, and it's good, but you've got to 209 00:16:48.159 --> 00:16:52.759 understand what are you trying to accomplish her? What do you think your emotional 210 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:56.639 levers or motivators are. And then it's not just the words, it's believe 211 00:16:56.639 --> 00:17:02.080 it or not, the colors uh that have to work or interact with the 212 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:08.200 words that begin to appeal to that. Like I said, that primitive part 213 00:17:08.200 --> 00:17:11.839 of the brain, and that's somebody to take the action you wanted to take. 214 00:17:12.680 --> 00:17:18.160 I recently listened to a podcast with an interior designer who was speaking to 215 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:22.599 the visual side and was talking about rooms you should paint your house similar to 216 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:27.000 what you just said, where even like depending on where you live, and 217 00:17:27.039 --> 00:17:32.440 so like for me just moving north and being in a space that's going to 218 00:17:32.519 --> 00:17:37.160 be cloudy most of the year, painting inside your house certain brighter colors actually 219 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:41.039 changes the mood of your home and then changes how you feel in that space. 220 00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:45.519 And I'm I'm very big, Jeff in the aesthetic side of things, 221 00:17:45.519 --> 00:17:49.519 in like the creative space. So understanding colors in that context, I immediately 222 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:55.200 jumped to where you went with marketing, because you apply it across the board 223 00:17:55.240 --> 00:17:59.079 in business and you start to understand too why certain colors just make so much 224 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:03.640 sense with with a brand's message, and it communicates at another level, right 225 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:07.119 subconsciously, the message that you're trying to get out into the market. When 226 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:11.519 you just have that, then the color and the visual correct as well. 227 00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:14.359 So I'm glad you kind of highlighted that. And I love a phrase you 228 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:18.799 used just now with the psychological motivators brushing up on that. I think that's 229 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:22.559 a really easy thing for people to do, or at least like for me, 230 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:27.559 I'm great with checklists like put this on my desk somewhere next time I'm 231 00:18:27.599 --> 00:18:33.119 writing copy or doing a podcast. How are we essentially hitting on one of 232 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:37.440 these psychological motivators. How have you used those in your career specifically like ways 233 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:42.759 that you recall them and started putting them into practice. Yeah, if you're 234 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:48.119 a B two B marketer, you really got to start with what's your brand 235 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:52.279 strategy? Period? And that's built out a set of directives like what are 236 00:18:52.279 --> 00:18:55.839 you trying to get done? I mean, I can tell you right now. 237 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.240 And this is mostly consumer, but it also applies on the to be 238 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:03.559 side. At National Debt Relief, we have three brand directors. I can't 239 00:19:03.559 --> 00:19:07.079 tell you what they are because they're kind of secret sauce stuff, but you 240 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:11.440 could probably guess they define the positioning of our brand or a brand strategy. 241 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:18.279 And then from there we have voice vehicles. Those voice vehicles are tied to 242 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:23.960 these psychological motivators, and so we know like, okay, we are going 243 00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:27.119 to use these, and we're not going to use these, or if we 244 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:32.119 are going to use like like a good I'll spill the beans. We're not 245 00:19:32.200 --> 00:19:37.400 a fear based brand and we live in a vertical where it's mostly fun, 246 00:19:38.119 --> 00:19:44.039 and so there are just certain things that we will never do because we don't 247 00:19:44.079 --> 00:19:48.880 think they we think they violate not just our brand strategy, but the effectiveness 248 00:19:48.920 --> 00:19:55.799 of how we sell, how we market, and how we sell differently than 249 00:19:55.799 --> 00:20:00.000 anybody else in this space. It helps give you differentiated point of view, 250 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:03.680 something we preach on the show all the time, right, because what you're 251 00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:07.480 preaching and petting into the market, then, uh, messaging wise, that 252 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.440 does set you apart from the foot around. Yeah, and I know we're 253 00:20:11.480 --> 00:20:17.559 kind of deviating a little bit towards brand strategy, but this is all tied 254 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:21.440 in in my opinion, right. It all hangs off of that. In 255 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:27.119 the idea is that now you're consistent and your point differentiating and a lot of 256 00:20:27.119 --> 00:20:36.279 B two B services and software or products are highly commoditized and everybody makes the 257 00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:38.440 same claims, are very similar claims, and if if you don't and you've 258 00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:42.799 got some unique position, it ain't gonna last very long, right. So 259 00:20:42.839 --> 00:20:48.519 the ability to position and pitch differently, which is very much tied to that 260 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:53.039 brand strategy and pulling on those emotional levels that work with it, is everything 261 00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:59.400 in my opinion. So I got one more kind of question for you before 262 00:20:59.400 --> 00:21:03.440 you wrap up, because one of the clear things to me from an emotional 263 00:21:03.480 --> 00:21:07.759 marketing standpoint, one of the best ways to make sure you're clear that you're 264 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:12.480 not just using the psychological motivators from your own perspective going oh, I think 265 00:21:12.519 --> 00:21:17.000 this will resonate in the market, it would be to just go talk to 266 00:21:17.079 --> 00:21:22.559 customers to collect insights from the market, and then then bring in the psychological 267 00:21:22.599 --> 00:21:26.440 motivators. Then start to like, Okay, we're kind of crafting because we 268 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.640 have the insights. So talk to me a little bit about that how you 269 00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:36.519 uniquely use and collect insights to then inform the emotional marketing, because I could 270 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:41.920 see this getting disjointed if just you're trying to figure it out in theory before 271 00:21:41.960 --> 00:21:45.640 and then go to the market with it before talking to your end consumer. 272 00:21:45.799 --> 00:21:51.240 So you your your spot on. Benjie and I omitted a very important step 273 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:56.319 and that is like when I've done brand and strategies in the past, we 274 00:21:56.359 --> 00:22:00.640 don't make them up. They don't just come out at thin air. They 275 00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:07.119 don't come out and get gut. They come from very systematic research. And 276 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:11.599 so you nailed it. And so there's usually like two or three parts of 277 00:22:11.640 --> 00:22:18.440 that. There's industry research, there's cultural research. In fact, the last 278 00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:25.480 brand strategy that that that I developed was deeply rooted in cultural research and and 279 00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:29.160 and like driving at what's going on, what's deeply embedded in the psyche of 280 00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:36.039 like the American consumer, whoever that is. There's qualitative and quantitative stuff. 281 00:22:36.079 --> 00:22:40.359 There's you know, so whether it's talking to your buyers you know, one 282 00:22:40.359 --> 00:22:45.400 on one or a mass or whatever. And there's also talking internally to others 283 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.119 in the company, could be the sales team, could be the product team, 284 00:22:48.160 --> 00:22:55.319 could be whomever, and using that to help define a brand strategy. 285 00:22:55.720 --> 00:22:57.880 So all of that needs to come together. Otherwise you're right, you're just 286 00:22:57.880 --> 00:23:02.519 shooting in the dark or you're just going with your gut, and that's not 287 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:07.240 good enough. And then you go from where I was talking about before, 288 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:11.920 and uh and you you know, very keenly pointed out I missed a step 289 00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:15.880 in that process. And I think it's good. And also it's an easy 290 00:23:15.200 --> 00:23:19.119 recall. Like if you're in a space where I know, I I get 291 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:22.119 here, where I get my head down and I'm just like working on things, 292 00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:25.759 and the and the y gets muddy. You know, even though I 293 00:23:25.799 --> 00:23:29.000 talked to customers a couple of months back, I haven't been listening to a 294 00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:32.160 sales calls or haven't you know, you just aren't doing You aren't in the 295 00:23:32.200 --> 00:23:34.359 middle of doing the work anymore. You're just doing your marketing stuff. You 296 00:23:34.400 --> 00:23:37.640 can always go back and talk to a customer, listen to a call, 297 00:23:37.720 --> 00:23:40.920 and be reminded of the hy So I think that's a super easy way to 298 00:23:40.960 --> 00:23:44.359 get back the emotional marketing is just go here what they're talking about. So 299 00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:48.279 I'm glad that we're highlighting this here at the end. I like this conversation, 300 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:52.559 Jeff. I appreciate your time, and I know I had mentioned it 301 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:55.240 kind we kind of glossed over it at the beginning because I was gonna let 302 00:23:55.240 --> 00:23:56.920 you talk about it here at the end. Anyway, you're not CMO of 303 00:23:57.000 --> 00:24:02.640 just one company, CMO at two National Debt Relief and Reach Financial. So 304 00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:06.720 as we kind of wrap up here, tell people the best way to connect 305 00:24:06.759 --> 00:24:08.920 with you, stay connected to you, and uh, a little bit of 306 00:24:10.119 --> 00:24:14.039 a spiel maybe on on the two companies that you you work for. Yeah, 307 00:24:14.039 --> 00:24:18.279 sure, So the best way to connect with me is please find me 308 00:24:18.319 --> 00:24:22.720 on LinkedIn if you've got any questions about this podcast or anything I talked about. 309 00:24:23.079 --> 00:24:27.720 Talk to Benji about the stuff he talked about in terms of national debt, 310 00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:32.400 Relief and Reach Financial I'll keep it really quick, so both are in 311 00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:37.920 the financial space. I'll start with National Debt Relief so NDRs in the business 312 00:24:37.000 --> 00:24:45.559 of helping consumers and business owners that are struggling with debt and TAM's growing like 313 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:51.960 literally check your watch, probably grown since this podcast started. People are struggling 314 00:24:52.119 --> 00:24:59.079 significantly right now in the United States, and we're in the debt settlement or 315 00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:03.359 debt relief busin this. So what we do is we're agency for that person 316 00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:10.000 that enrolls in our program and we will negotiate directly with their creditors to reduce 317 00:25:10.039 --> 00:25:14.720 the amount that they owe significantly. And we also get folks out a debt 318 00:25:15.640 --> 00:25:22.680 in two to four years generally, which is way shorter than some other options 319 00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:26.799 that they have. It's not as as severe as a bankruptcy, and it 320 00:25:26.839 --> 00:25:32.119 may be to your advantage versus like you know, a lending solution of some 321 00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:36.880 kind because of interest rates or whatever. So it's a really really great offering 322 00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:41.160 for a lot of people, especially now that they're struggling. And then Reach 323 00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:45.000 Financials a sister company, same ownership, and it's a fintech, so uh, 324 00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:51.759 we are a personal own lender, right now with aspirations to add new 325 00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:56.000 products, so a little bit of a different audience than on the NDR side, 326 00:25:56.680 --> 00:25:59.960 and in both cases, both are great brands. To check them out 327 00:26:00.079 --> 00:26:03.720 you have an interest. National deck Relief dot com and Reach dot com are 328 00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:07.920 are the two ways you can find us. I love it well, Jeff, 329 00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:11.440 Thank you so much for spending time with us on B two B Growth 330 00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:15.759 today and I'm sure people will do that reach out and get connected. And 331 00:26:17.000 --> 00:26:19.119 also you can reach out if you're listening and haven't connected with me yet, 332 00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:23.119 I'd love to hear from you. Search Benji block Over on LinkedIn and I 333 00:26:23.119 --> 00:26:26.680 would love to talk to about marketing, business and life over there. You 334 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:30.480 can also go to B to be Growth show dot com for all of our 335 00:26:30.480 --> 00:26:36.680 previous episodes and to subscribe and stay up to date on everything we're doing with 336 00:26:36.759 --> 00:26:40.279 the show. Thanks for listening, everybody. We'll be back real soon with 337 00:26:40.319 --> 00:26:55.480 another episode. B two B Growth is brought to you by the team at 338 00:26:55.480 --> 00:26:57.640 sweet Fish Media. Here at sweet Fish, we produced podcasts for some of 339 00:26:57.680 --> 00:27:02.519 the most innovative brands in the world, and we help them turn those podcasts 340 00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:06.559 into micro videos, LinkedIn content, blog posts and more. We're on a 341 00:27:06.599 --> 00:27:11.079 mission to produce every leader's favorite show. 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