March 7, 2022

Marketing in the Metaverse with Danielle Bechtel

In this episode, Benji discusses the past, present, and future of marketing with Danielle Bechtel.

We're pondering the Metaverse, how developers and Gen Z are shaping the marketing landscape, and what we have to be excited about in this new virtual world.

Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:13.279 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be to be growth. 2 00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:20.920 Dan. You'll welcome into Bob Growth. Thanks for having me. So, 3 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:25.120 Danielle, let me do this. I want to save the goal right up 4 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:29.239 front for this episode because when I get get to talking to you, I 5 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:34.200 got really excited about the future of marketing and I want to do what we 6 00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:38.399 were doing offline, just kind of spitballing and talking on here, because I 7 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:42.000 think listeners are going to get really excited about the future of marketing. But 8 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:46.119 before we we go there and can kind of give that to people as fuel. 9 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:50.240 You have a very unique lens that I think lends itself well to this 10 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:56.880 conversation because you're actually looking at the future of marketing through this background in developer 11 00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:00.320 marketing. So give me some context to your background and what you're seeing right 12 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:03.759 now. This is not something that I sought out befo. I kind of 13 00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:07.079 fell into it and learned a lot of random stuff along the way. So 14 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:11.799 I started out, yeah, started my career in technology and in different roles. 15 00:01:11.799 --> 00:01:17.680 I worked in more corporate America space, worked for cute, a few 16 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:23.120 tech teams and then I moved into understanding how difficult it was to hire engineers. 17 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:27.319 Right now, this is about when cloud computing took off, for just 18 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:34.319 reference, and one of my one of my jobs was to educate everyone on 19 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:40.319 cloud computing and through that I've found a startup that was later turned to my 20 00:01:40.359 --> 00:01:46.319 first like real position in this space. I started a startup called a cloud 21 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:49.840 guru. I was the first marketer for that company. That grew from in 22 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:55.560 five years we were about to under or Twentyzero when I joined. We just 23 00:01:55.640 --> 00:02:00.239 sold for two billion. So that's exciting. Yeah, so through that I 24 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:05.920 watched the market change and now I'm working full time on just completely marketing two 25 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:07.960 developers. That's what I do all day. Wow. So how do you 26 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:14.879 see developers specifically starting to shape the future of marketing and where things are going? 27 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:17.719 So, if you ever marketed to developers or talked with developers, what 28 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:23.680 I love about them? I don't mean to generalize everyone together, but right, 29 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:27.479 right, yeah, some of the strength of that community is, I 30 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:34.360 would say authenticity. You they really believe in products and when it comes to 31 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.759 marketing they have a very low BS radar, so they leads them to wanting 32 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:44.960 to try products before they buy them, and it also leads to this thing 33 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:47.199 that we all are aware of this word of mouth marketing. If you want 34 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:51.759 to make it marketing to developers, you have to really be authentic in your 35 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:57.400 message and have a product that lines the claims that you're making and you have 36 00:02:57.479 --> 00:03:00.800 to kind of step back out of the way and provide them a mechanism to 37 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:07.120 share it within their communities, so you have the authenticity and community aspect. 38 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:08.639 What I think is like when I nerd out on this and like, what 39 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:12.719 I think is so interesting and why I think this relates to the future of 40 00:03:12.759 --> 00:03:16.520 marketing is that's always been there. That's like what makes me wake up in 41 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:21.560 the morning and love marketing the developers, but it I see a lot of 42 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:28.080 similarities and parallels to marketing towards Gen Z in that and the next generation, 43 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:31.759 not just developers, but everyone the next generation, and they're like quests for 44 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:37.520 Truth and quests for ethics and and just because of the world they grew up 45 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:43.360 and has a lot of similarities to marketing to developers. So specifically, authenticity 46 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:46.479 and community being things that you see in the next generation and in developers. 47 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:51.639 Talk a little bit more about why you think maybe this next generation coming up 48 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:57.280 is is so similar what you see specifically in them. So mckinzi has a 49 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:00.319 really good blog post on this. I they went out and did a lot 50 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:04.120 of research on Gen Z and understanding. Like what does Gen Z value? 51 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:10.439 I'm going to compare it to generations above, just for context, I would 52 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:14.960 say, and it is all about to your point. Literally, how did 53 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:18.480 this generation grow up? What were the social and market, like social economic 54 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:28.079 situations they grew up in? But Jen why would not jen? Why? 55 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:30.680 The one right before a millennial? Sorry, I can't think of what it 56 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.720 is right now. They really bought purchase for social status. So you can 57 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:41.240 think of your like role x has or fancy cars, and this research when 58 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:46.399 you look at millennials, they bought more for the experiences. I totally resonate 59 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:47.759 with that. Does it yeah, okay, I'm like fallen. That fucking 60 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:50.959 do and it resonated with me. I was like, wait, everyone doesn't 61 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:55.879 want experiences. I didn't know that. Wait, so let me clarify. 62 00:04:55.920 --> 00:05:00.439 So Gen x is the one thing. Yeah, so jen x comes up 63 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:04.319 in a culture where it's like, let me prove that I'm I made it 64 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:06.759 by the watch that I wear, by the car that I drive, by 65 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:11.759 the home that I buy. Then I'm like coming. But think about when 66 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:15.800 gen x came up in their parents went through the Great Depression. Their parents 67 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:19.759 went through have yeah, YEP, so it's like yeah, exactly. So 68 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:24.319 it's like I made it, wow, out of yeah, totally, it's 69 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:28.560 it's coming out of what their parents experienced, even what they are feeling the 70 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:32.839 repercussions of, and so physical stuff becomes the thing and then they reach a 71 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:36.879 point where then we feel the impact right where it's like, okay, we 72 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:41.160 don't want the physical stuff anymore because we saw our parents get it and that 73 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:46.079 clearly wasn't really the thing, the answer. Oh my gosh, preach, 74 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:48.600 we are going down like some psychology, like what is the true meaning of 75 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:53.040 life? Things like yes, we're all tryings. Yeah, it is like 76 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:57.480 a learned thing from your parents. Oh, I saw my parents have everything 77 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:00.079 and they weren't happy, like not to the dark hair, like maybe not. 78 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:03.040 Okay, so maybe there's something else. Maybe I'm going to go out 79 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:10.279 and seek experiences to find that. millennials, YEP, okay. So, 80 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:14.319 but then we are at a place now where we're seeing it shift again, 81 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:20.199 and I mean millennials, like the upper aged millennials, are having kids and 82 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:25.680 even though we as millennials settled down a lot less quickly than our parents did. 83 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:29.680 There's another generation coming underneath us, which is Gen Z. and so 84 00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:32.959 what do you think? Are they rebelling against the experience thing or what makes 85 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:38.360 them go so far digital? Because they are way further into the digital space 86 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:43.560 and that's a shift that you would identify right. Yes, I think it. 87 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:47.240 I don't know if I would say rebelling against the experience thing. Experience 88 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:53.439 just means something different to Gen z. If I'm like completely honest, I 89 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:59.319 have so much faith in this next generation coming up because they came up in 90 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:03.519 a completely digital native environment. Things that are normal to them or just not 91 00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:11.560 normal to the generations above. It is normal to have really real relationships with 92 00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:15.920 people that they have maybe never met. So digital communities, it's all so 93 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:21.399 normal to be a little bit more, I would see, like open and 94 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:26.399 like questioning of like what is truth. So you can take that in like 95 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:30.439 gender norms, for example, if you're trying to market to Gen Z. 96 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:31.759 Sorry, we're going on Gen Z now. Now I'm going in a rabbit 97 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:36.759 hole. No, that's good. Yeah, like there it's a little less 98 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:41.680 black and white and a little bit more open to having the conversation of just 99 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:46.639 like maybe there is some different polarities here. I guess I play. But 100 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:50.360 with that comes this like I would say the overarching umbrella of Gen Z is 101 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:54.680 truth and it is like I want to be able to bring my true, 102 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:58.360 authentic self to the world, and that's why you have some of those gender 103 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:03.160 conversations, but also where this king tie into like all of the stuff we 104 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:07.360 can nerd out on later about like digital world's Meta versus Lah is just like 105 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:15.120 how can I be my most authentic self to in a social like social media, 106 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:20.920 digital asque environment? And when I when you start going down that rabbit 107 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:24.759 trill talking more to Jen z specifically, man, it gets me thinking about 108 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:28.959 a couple things, one being most millennials also would fall in the category of 109 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:33.519 this term you use, like digital natives. There is like I can tell 110 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:39.399 you I don't remember a time in my life where I didn't have access to 111 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.360 the Internet, but the difference would be the evolution of the Internet in my 112 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:48.200 lifetime I can remember. Versus Gen Z would be like. I mean they 113 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:54.039 are brought up in social media right, so it's like it's not just the 114 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:58.360 Internet, it's social media specifically and really being like baptized into that type of 115 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:01.759 culture where it's just it is everywhere and it's soaked into everything. I would 116 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:07.919 say social media is more of a millennial culture thing than the next culture. 117 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:11.279 It's not looked at the same so the millennials tend to get a bad rap 118 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:16.480 for being the me generation. This is totally so. What is our like? 119 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:20.399 Vice Social Media? You get to put the perfect version of me out 120 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:28.919 there. Gen Z's came up more in a digital native in like I think 121 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:33.679 you would be really surprised at the level of technical capabilities that some of the 122 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:37.120 younger folks have just because of how they brought up. So if you look 123 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:41.879 on like Youtube, these twelve year olds are making these like really, really 124 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:45.759 well done videos. I'm like, how do you know after effects? How 125 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.200 are you doing this? Like they're not in marketing. It's just because of 126 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:52.519 the world that they were brought up. They have different tools of different like 127 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:56.759 expectations for themselves. But anyway we wind. For me, let's go back 128 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:01.000 to gen x. How were they marketed at versus? Then we can, 129 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:03.639 you know, fast forward maybe to us as millennials and then Gen z. 130 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:07.360 But how have we seen the evolution there and marketing specifically to the generation before 131 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:11.879 us. I think the key differences is the number of channels that you had 132 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:16.200 to reach a customer. So the channels that you had. You had TV, 133 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:20.600 you had radio, you had newspaper magazines, print, but the big 134 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:24.360 differences that you had to pay to play in a channels, meaning you had 135 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:30.840 to have enough capital to be able to afford a TV slot. And the 136 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:35.279 people that I did have enough capital. They really were focused on brand awareness 137 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:39.559 in the essence of remembering their brand. So I use Cocacola as the example. 138 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:43.360 But you remember Coke's logo and they've really push the logo, and this 139 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:48.440 is where some of the misconceptions of branding come from today. They really pushing 140 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:52.279 the logo so that when you're walking down the supermarket isle you see Cocacola, 141 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:56.759 you remember the commercial, you buy it. It's not just in marketing, 142 00:10:56.799 --> 00:11:03.240 like in consumer product marketing, it's also marketing in music. The reason that 143 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:05.720 you had these mega stars like the Beatles or the rolling stones, etc. 144 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:11.759 Is because you had to have a lot of money to get a message around 145 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:15.159 the world. So there could only be so many folks. Okay, so 146 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:20.919 that's what was happening before, and what completely changed all that was Internet. 147 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:24.000 So with the rise of the Internet, there's so many different channels to reach 148 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:30.879 customers that now it took away the big barrier to entry, which was money, 149 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:37.120 but it added new difficulties, which is saturation. There's so many messages 150 00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:41.399 now, there's so much information coming at people that like cognitively we're not able 151 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:48.480 to absorb all of it. So the the companies that stick out today currently 152 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.279 are the companies that can break through that noise. They can do something differently, 153 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:58.720 they they can resonate with a certain audience. In the immediate future, 154 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:03.840 like the next one of two to three years, I would see almost all 155 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:11.159 be tob companies moving towards at least a product leg growth play or, better 156 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:15.039 case, the ones that like really get it to a community like growth play. 157 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:18.320 It makes sense now with the shift, you have to have your product 158 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:22.559 leading front and center. What changed in each generation? It was the channels. 159 00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:26.679 The channels change. Yeah, we have all these channels now, but 160 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:33.279 the the companies that are really really making it, the ones who I'm going 161 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:37.480 to use wortle as an example. Are you familiar with wortle? I am 162 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:39.960 familiar with worldle. I don't want to be but it's everywhere. Okay, 163 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:43.840 let's use wordle before I tell you my point. wortle. No one knew 164 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:48.360 what worldl was in November, and we're doing this in early February. Bortle 165 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:52.840 just got bought for like a billion dollars, I think, like a be 166 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:58.000 in it. No one even knew what it was four years ago. Why? 167 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:03.399 The channel that matters today is word of mouth, and that's why product 168 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:09.799 leg growth allows word of mouth marketing. People don't really listen to claims as 169 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:11.320 much. I think this changes, though, when you get higher up in 170 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:18.279 an organization, like if you're selling into a VPS, vpcto like the the 171 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:24.639 traditional sales led tactics are appropriate, but for the majority through, like if 172 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:30.360 you're trying to create demand, build an audience, be a household name, 173 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:33.600 you have to understand word of mouth marketing and I think the first step of 174 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:39.320 that is product like growth marketing. HMM, and word of mouth has always 175 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:43.240 been effective, but then it's just like it kind of shifts in a way, 176 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:48.960 because you word of mouth then also done online and shared globally, is 177 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:52.799 so easily right that it's like it amplifies it even more. What I know 178 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.320 doubt on and like what I do for a living, is word of mouth 179 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:01.639 marketing. Sounds like it's something that you don't have control over, but you 180 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:05.679 can. You do, but it's harder because what you need to do to 181 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:11.279 have control over it is to have a good product that actually works and that 182 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:15.840 you understand what your customers pain points are, and you have to really do 183 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.639 the work internally and believe in it and then go out into the market like 184 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:24.840 that. It's it's just it requires a little bit more soul searching and time 185 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:28.519 and that space. Yeah, to really practice what you preach, I'd say. 186 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:33.639 But that lines up with the future of what we're even saying generationally right, 187 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.919 because that long ticity and ethics is like an absolute must, whereas I 188 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:43.360 think, and we can talk specifically about be to be brands in the SAS 189 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:46.320 space, because I think there's a reputation right now, and you can tell 190 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:50.919 me if I'm wrong, but I see a lot of like cold marketing that 191 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:56.519 seems still generationally out of touch now, and so that evolution has to happen 192 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:01.399 and ends up lining really lining up really well word of mouth with this authenticity 193 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.399 and ethics piece. I think that, like no one wants to put out 194 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:09.559 cold marketing, as you and I like that term. No one aims to 195 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.120 do that from a marketing department, but it really sends from like the culture 196 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:18.480 and the values internally that, whether your intentions are, it's what you produce 197 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:24.080 at the end. Why? I think what is going to change that is 198 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:26.919 with this new generation and what is coming. I think those players won't win 199 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:33.399 anymore. They can win despite that, but I think less and less there 200 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:39.120 is going to be any appetite for that type of marketing. So I think 201 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:43.159 be too, be marketers, really need to take a look at themselves and 202 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.679 got and not literally, but more of like ethos way think of themselves, 203 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:52.200 of be Toc marketers right, which I think is happening a little bit more, 204 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:56.000 as you're starting to I feel like I've ended up in a couple conversations 205 00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:00.200 recently where it's like be to be marketers looking at BEC world and not just 206 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:02.360 being like and I wish I was over there, but like Oh, we 207 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:04.759 can create our own, I don't know, sand box to play in over 208 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:10.399 here too. Yeah, this one simple way I train my teams on that 209 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:14.679 is it's the difference between if you're writing a piece. Even you're a beby 210 00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:18.480 company and you're writing a email to many people, picture one person in your 211 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:22.639 mind that's going to read it. Give that person a name, give them 212 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:26.440 a name, look around their world and then write it. That's the be 213 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:30.279 TOC mindset and a be tob marketer. Okay, so one of the things 214 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:33.840 we talked about offline that I have to bring up here. We talked about 215 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.440 how there's this other inflection point that's that were aware of right now, and 216 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:42.080 some people are maybe early adopters in this space because it's just developing, which 217 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:48.399 is the announcement of the metaverse and this advancement of like digital first. Right. 218 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:52.360 So we talked digital natives, but like digital first is this reality you 219 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:59.039 see a need for kind of brands really think through their future strategy. Daniell, 220 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:02.399 tell me what excites you the most about that and what you think we're 221 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:06.880 going to start to see people trying in that space? Okay, yes, 222 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:08.839 and this is the place. Definitely. I say, I'm not an expert. 223 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:12.440 If anyone claims to be an expert on this, don't trust them because 224 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:17.480 web three, metaverse, it hasn't even been come defined yet. It isn't 225 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:21.559 be an extatic talk. Yeah, like you looks cannot be. You can 226 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:25.240 just be someone that's read a lot and it's been on a lot of twitter, 227 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.319 but we can. Let's talk about some practical changes, but more what 228 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:34.319 we've been talking about the entire time. Like in this world, authenticity, 229 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:41.759 ethics and community are all that matter. I would recommend anyone that is interested 230 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:48.799 in this topic read a article by Matthew Ball. It's called like what is 231 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:52.079 the metaverse, where to find it and who will build it? And there's 232 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.039 some he does a really good job at explaining, like what are the tenets 233 00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:00.920 of this future web three, metaverse, whatever that they are building on? 234 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:04.000 Some of those tenants that are going to impact me, to be marketing, 235 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:11.759 are this concept of persistence. If you if you're familiar with gaming, I 236 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:15.079 think a lot of people go to gaming to understand this. It's like I 237 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:18.519 walk into one game, when I walk in an animal crossing and I'm wearing 238 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:21.799 a red hat. Well, when I walk into Halo II, should also 239 00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:26.480 be wearing that red hat, like between these worlds, you as an entity 240 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:32.359 have to be persistent. What that means for me, to be marketing is 241 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:37.920 that whatever product that you're building, it will have to play by the rules 242 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:42.839 that are defined when these rules are defined, which means you're going to need 243 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:48.640 a lot of Dev and technical hires on your team, or or access to 244 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:53.160 them if you would like donals or set to be able to build your product 245 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:57.880 in a way that communicates in this web three world, just like you built 246 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:02.839 a website that communicates in web too. It's the same thing, just we 247 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:11.240 don't know what it is yet. It's one and the other big one, 248 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:17.079 having like a fully functioning current like economy or currency in this new place, 249 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:22.440 getting into crypto. I know that doesn't sound like it's a marketings job. 250 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:27.799 That probably is. More operations are finance and obviously cryptos not like completely bought 251 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:33.000 in yet, but like, at this point we will be moving into something 252 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:34.720 that is not the same world that we are living in today. So I 253 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:41.240 think that it is important that you're least educating yourself and thinking about if I'm 254 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:45.119 going to be accepting currency in another form, just like if you are going 255 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:48.039 to accept the Indian dollar or something like. Not Dollar, but you know 256 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:51.599 what I'm saying. Yep, just another currency, like how is that going 257 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:56.200 to impact my marketing strategy? Hm, both great points. I imagine, 258 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.799 and again this is maybe the pessimist side of me, but I imagine, 259 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:07.759 like be to be too often being last into this next phase where it's going 260 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:12.440 to be done at like almost out of just sheer necessity. Right, like 261 00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:17.039 we're going to drag some of the be to be space into this world because 262 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:19.920 they're like kicking and screaming, but they know that they have to do it 263 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:23.759 and it'll be like half baked in it. But then there's going to be 264 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:29.640 for runners who do it like really, really well and can pull it off 265 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:33.319 in an authentic way, in a way that's exciting, and we all know 266 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:36.559 there's like there's companies out there that are going to do this high level. 267 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:41.119 I wonder what if you were like unlimited budget, Danielle, and you got 268 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:45.519 to create something in this space? Is What do you think, like be 269 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:48.720 to be should be trying? What would you try? Like, do you 270 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:51.960 have any thoughts? There were like it'd be so exciting to do or try 271 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:56.400 this thing. Oh my gosh, let's talk today. Let's be really practical 272 00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.960 and like, because I once again we don't know what it's going to be. 273 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:03.119 It's not like it's ready player one and like we're just building ready, 274 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:08.039 player one like that's not though. They are. They are now accepting loans. 275 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:11.920 Did you see that? They are. You can get a long property. 276 00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:15.839 Yeah, you can get alone to buy property in the metavers. So 277 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:18.680 I'm not quite there yet, but all right, you have it. Today. 278 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:22.440 Actually, what I think it's going to be, and this is whatever 279 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.400 the data is today. Thoughts. I think it's going to be the actual 280 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:27.440 world that we live in today, but with more of like a Hologram type 281 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:33.799 thing. So maybe the one is you, the one you have your goggles 282 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:37.200 on and you can see your friends sitting next to you and like they kind 283 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:40.799 of look like a Hologram, but like you can still have a conversation with 284 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:45.039 them. And then the technology evolves in the the just like think about cell 285 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:47.599 phones. Cell phones were really big and now they can get really small. 286 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:51.759 Well, we've got goggles right now. What if that someday moves into a 287 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:55.400 contact Lens, and now I'm talking Black Mirror stuff, but it's all real, 288 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:59.440 and then your friend doesn't look like a fuzzy Hologram. Your friend looks 289 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:02.880 like your actual friend. It's maybe so in your world, like what you're 290 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:07.440 saying is like almost like more augmented reality. It starts the lines between VR 291 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:11.759 and a are start to blur a little bit more. Yes, but taking 292 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:15.200 this back to beb marketing, because now I'm just getting into SCI FI convers 293 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:18.400 and stunt sci fi. But you give me in the BEDB marketing some of 294 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:22.279 the things that you can tantually do today, the one that exists. This 295 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:26.640 is not for everyone, but if I had money, what I would do? 296 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:33.519 I would host a conference in the Metaphor First World that exists today, 297 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.200 post a conference, host meet up, have some especially if you're in a 298 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:41.480 more like tech, like I work and in technology. So that makes sense 299 00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:45.200 for my brand. But if you are in a more innovative brand and or 300 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:51.640 you're trying to connect with developers, that's a way that you probably can't mess 301 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:56.240 that up. Can't do in a really unauthentic way or in authentic site. 302 00:22:56.279 --> 00:23:00.359 The other thing that I see a lot of big brands doing, the have 303 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:06.519 a lot of money, are creating their own nfts. Yeah, I I 304 00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:10.880 think that there is a lot of merit in nft world and I think that 305 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:17.359 it is the first tempt or the beginning of what may happen with branding. 306 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:22.480 I don't think many companies can authentically create an NFT. I don't think a 307 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:27.240 company can, because, if you it really has to be individual led, 308 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:33.759 like these communities are people speaking on their own opinions. So if you are 309 00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:36.920 a bebby company and you want to try and I t's or you want to 310 00:23:36.920 --> 00:23:40.160 try to get in that world, I would look for a creator that you 311 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:44.839 can partner with in like learn, but it has to be someone that already 312 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.519 lives in that world for it to feel real. Like you, yeah, 313 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:51.119 for the best thing you can do today is just learn about it so that 314 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:56.880 it doesn't feel in authentic. Creators is such a big part of this, 315 00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:00.559 because one thing I will say. I don't know if you feel this way 316 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:03.720 too, but I think the next generation coming up, and I would I 317 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:07.799 would put millennials slightly in this camp as well, but there's like a genuine 318 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:15.359 sort of lack of trust of institutions, and so if beatobe companies aren't careful, 319 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.440 they just get lumped in in that same kind of Oh, this big 320 00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:23.759 organization with these invisible men that sit at some table somewhere making decision. You 321 00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:27.880 know what I mean, like there's just a miss, there's a lack of 322 00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:33.319 trust. There so when you get into individuals, create creators who people are 323 00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:37.480 excited about and like, that's it's very grass roots, right, and it 324 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:42.680 goes back to community where there is this level of like we know there's, 325 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:47.000 I don't know, off the the words you were using right, community authenticity. 326 00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:51.240 I thinks like I end up back there. So give me maybe any 327 00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:55.240 more examples of and it could be in BETC or other companies that you're looking 328 00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:59.200 at, but are there any examples of people that you think are doing this 329 00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:03.799 really well right now? Yeah, right, yeah, I'll give you examples 330 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:08.680 and also give you an article because I just love reading. I just found, 331 00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:14.440 I stumbled upon this article by like a young gentleman is his name is 332 00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:19.440 Duncan elder, and it was community led growth, something, something, the 333 00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:26.000 key to acquisition, and it was on the tribecommerce. Anyway, it articulated 334 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:29.319 exactly what we're talking about so well that I would really encourage people to go 335 00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:33.640 read it. And it is that movement of be too be companies can feel 336 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:38.039 authentic. It's because you just need to be in a community and talk about 337 00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:42.079 something that you like. Pick your community needs to be small and and be 338 00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:47.440 true to that community. So examples of ones that I think do well. 339 00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:53.480 I would say I just talk to the are just listen to an interview with 340 00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:59.599 like the growth lead from off zero. It's not a household name, but 341 00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:04.000 it's more in the developer side. So that's why everyone pretty much uses all 342 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:10.400 zero and their websites. And like how did that happen? That happen from 343 00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:15.039 developers. So my world's developers, but apply this to whatever your world is. 344 00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:18.279 Developers Finding, oh there's a better way to do this problem, really 345 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:23.039 liking the product, recommending it to other people and instead of all zero going 346 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:27.640 out and in just speaking like we are all zero whatever, they created a 347 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:36.039 whole bunch of resources to serve at their community of people, like they knew 348 00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:41.880 that's what they authentically could talk about and put all these resources out there and 349 00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:45.920 now pretty much everyone uses all Sero. HMM. So one of the take 350 00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:49.039 ones I would even get from that, like is the movement away, and 351 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:52.359 I know even be to be seems a little bit slow in this, but 352 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:56.480 it's getting there. Like no more pay walls for a lot of this. 353 00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:00.200 Yes, you know that. Yeah, the research you're doing, like that's 354 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:03.640 a yeah, there is no a paid I think paid ads are even kind 355 00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:08.400 of silly. I think paid ads should be like brand awareness only, or 356 00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:14.960 just like how do you want people to think about your company? Or feel, 357 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.359 maybe feel is a better word about your company. But yeah, like 358 00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:22.880 put in everything behind a pay while making it. You download this Ebook, 359 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:29.240 it's going to give you x points on your like mql to SQL score like. 360 00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:33.359 That is traditional marketing and that's the stuff that is going to hold companies 361 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:37.400 back from doing what people actually want. If you do a lot of what 362 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:41.880 people want and like enjoy interacting with your company, they're going to recommend your 363 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:47.799 company to other people. H that's good and yeah, be kind of paying 364 00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:56.279 attention to their Um this I think that you need. So where the world's 365 00:27:56.359 --> 00:28:03.240 going is when we say community. That's so broad right. Really think small 366 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:07.720 communities. So you can say, like I'm in if you own. Sorry, 367 00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:11.160 I just can speak for my own world a little bit better because I've 368 00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:15.240 thought of it. But like say, I live in the developer community. 369 00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:21.519 Well, there are so many sub sets of that. Where can I live 370 00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:26.000 and create value the most? Start there instead of trying to cover all of 371 00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:30.240 them, because you go into one community and then you can look around and 372 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:34.240 see who are the like buddies of that community and then bring them in. 373 00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:41.480 That's like it. That's really a down up movement. And then your sales 374 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:45.880 team, once that once a company, once you've infitrated a company with that 375 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:49.240 down up movement, then your sales team can easily go sell into the people 376 00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:53.759 that actually have the pocketbooks. We are be to be like your VP's and 377 00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:57.640 above and say hey, a hundred of your people are already using my product. 378 00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:02.279 Would you like to learn more? Much easier cold call than have you 379 00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:07.000 heard of Xyz? HMM, yeah, I love that. That that motion 380 00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:10.920 of like these are the people in the company are already using it. Like 381 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:18.400 that's then it becomes almost like a nobrainer. Right, exactly the this is 382 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:21.279 everyone uses this. But, like, I was really trying to think of 383 00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:25.200 examples and they're very, very few. Be To be examples that I think 384 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:30.480 do well. I think it's because there's this inflection in every betb company where 385 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:34.079 they have the opportunity to stay in their small community and it really dive deep 386 00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:37.039 in it and when they have the opportunity to make a lot of money really 387 00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:41.039 fast, and people typically pick that one and then they start doing all of 388 00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:45.519 those tendencies we just talked about. Like I want to watch wortle word all. 389 00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:48.960 Three months from now, I bet is going to have a million ads 390 00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:51.920 on it. It's going to let you play like all day and get you 391 00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:55.720 addicted to it and like it's just going to lose that authenticity. But I 392 00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:03.039 think apple is the example of how to You keep standards, Hie, how 393 00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:07.200 to make it feel like you're marketing to one person and makes them feel cool, 394 00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:10.920 even though when you go started a company you have two options, pc 395 00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:14.920 or apple. They are be tob business more than anyone else. So Hmm, 396 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:18.680 yeah, I mean I'm interested to see what happens with going back to 397 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.680 a wortle like getting bought by the New York Times. I think it's an 398 00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:25.680 interesting play. It'll be fun to kind of watch that what happens there. 399 00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:29.640 Apple is a great example. Another example that you might have mentioned last time 400 00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:33.319 came back to my mind just now is is canva. CANAVA is. It 401 00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:40.119 spans kind of multiple because it's for individual creators, but it's clearly also like 402 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:44.119 I know they market specifically to teachers. They definitely do some things in like 403 00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:48.079 business and want social media marketers to like use their platform so I think there 404 00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:53.559 would be a good it has a very good like freemium type. You know, 405 00:30:53.720 --> 00:31:00.519 interface love that example. Yeah, can't got big quickly and they still 406 00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:03.559 let you use the product for free. And then you don't remove that, 407 00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:06.279 you could be hitting so many pay walls because you're like, Oh man, 408 00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:08.359 people know us now, like we're going to get more money from this. 409 00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:12.200 But like they so stood true to themselves, so good for them. Yeah, 410 00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:17.480 the number of like free templates on their fonts, like they are constantly 411 00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:21.319 expanding at a rate that I feel is very surprising in the in the free 412 00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:26.000 side of things, you need to have like sea level people with enough gumption 413 00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:30.279 to say I believe this is going to work, even though there's a million 414 00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:33.079 examples that it does work. Like it comes down to, it's a lot 415 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:37.359 easier to put a pay wall or a lot easier to say let's not give 416 00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:41.799 them all of these templates for free. It's if logically feels right, but 417 00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:45.079 it doesn't work in the end and I think the next generation of people are 418 00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.720 just going to have no time for that at all. HMM. Okay, 419 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:55.079 so I love talking in in theory. I love hearing your thoughts and ideas. 420 00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:56.480 I think as we start to wrap up here, one thing I'd want 421 00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:04.039 to do is go what are we telling people to focus on as they leave 422 00:32:04.119 --> 00:32:07.839 this conversation? Right, Daniel? So, like, is there any thing 423 00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:12.880 that you would want to say as you go away from this show? Be 424 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:16.039 More aware of this, or be curious about this or go read this, 425 00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:20.759 like, what would you push people towards as a as an action item leaving 426 00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:25.079 this conversation? I would that's a good question. I do speak way to 427 00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:30.279 theoretical. Let's try and make this more changeable. If you don't have a 428 00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:35.960 product leg growth strategy within marketing right now, I would go explore that with 429 00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:40.119 your product team. If you don't have a freemium model, I would explore 430 00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:47.640 that with your product team as well. I would start learning about some of 431 00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:53.200 these trends. I would read that article about Gen Z, learn what is 432 00:32:53.240 --> 00:32:59.039 the metaverse, learn what is an Nft, what is cryptocurrency, so that 433 00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:04.200 you don't it's so they don't feel scary. These are all very easy to 434 00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:12.480 understand once you just put in a little bit of time to research them. 435 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:22.680 And then, once you have product leg growth, do the soul searching to 436 00:33:22.759 --> 00:33:27.039 understand what community that you want to be a part of. And the only 437 00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:30.680 way you can't go out in the world and try to decide that. Get 438 00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:34.720 to look within your company and figure out who are you actually what? What 439 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:38.160 is that, and then start your strategy there. Feels like this episode comes 440 00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:43.960 back to three words numerous times, which I appreciate because we can leave with 441 00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:49.759 that in our head. But I think community, authenticity and ethics are recurring 442 00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:53.200 themes and things that we should be thinking about in our business right I mean 443 00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:58.920 obviously in our life as well, but that looking within is something that needs 444 00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.920 to happen at a personal level and a and a company level where we really 445 00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:06.599 know who we are, and then authenticity, ethics and community flow from that 446 00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:08.559 space. So, Daniel, this has been a really fun conversation. I 447 00:34:08.599 --> 00:34:13.280 love just getting to look into the future and see how the past informs the 448 00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:16.639 present and then the present is informing where we're headed. So thank you for 449 00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:20.719 taking time and being on be to be growth today. For those that want 450 00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.039 to stay connected to you and and some of the work you're doing, what's 451 00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:28.320 the best place for people to do that? Add me on Linkedin. Daniel 452 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:31.199 back toll, I'll accept you. Of Let's talk more. Well, we're 453 00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:36.079 always having conversations like this here on BB growth. If you haven't subscribed to 454 00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:40.360 the show yet, be sure to do that and we're will be back real 455 00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:45.440 soon with another episode. You can follow me on Linkedin. I'd love to 456 00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:49.079 chat with you about business, marketing life. Just Search Benjie Block. Keep 457 00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:52.719 doing work that matters. We'll talk about this be tob growth is brought to 458 00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:55.440 you by the team at sweet fish media. Here at sweet fish, we 459 00:34:55.480 --> 00:35:00.239 produce podcasts for some of the most innovative brands in the world and we help 460 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:05.159 them turn those podcasts into Microvideos, linkedin content, blog posts and more. 461 00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:08.239 We're on a mission to produce every leader's favorite show. Want more information, 462 00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:10.639 visit sweet PHISH MEDIACOM