Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:13.279 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be to be growth. 2 00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:20.920 Dan. You'll welcome into Bob Growth. Thanks for having me. So, 3 00:00:21.079 --> 00:00:25.120 Danielle, let me do this. I want to save the goal right up 4 00:00:25.120 --> 00:00:29.239 front for this episode because when I get get to talking to you, I 5 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:34.200 got really excited about the future of marketing and I want to do what we 6 00:00:34.200 --> 00:00:38.399 were doing offline, just kind of spitballing and talking on here, because I 7 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:42.000 think listeners are going to get really excited about the future of marketing. But 8 00:00:42.039 --> 00:00:46.119 before we we go there and can kind of give that to people as fuel. 9 00:00:47.000 --> 00:00:50.240 You have a very unique lens that I think lends itself well to this 10 00:00:50.280 --> 00:00:56.880 conversation because you're actually looking at the future of marketing through this background in developer 11 00:00:56.960 --> 00:01:00.320 marketing. So give me some context to your background and what you're seeing right 12 00:01:00.359 --> 00:01:03.759 now. This is not something that I sought out befo. I kind of 13 00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:07.079 fell into it and learned a lot of random stuff along the way. So 14 00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:11.799 I started out, yeah, started my career in technology and in different roles. 15 00:01:11.799 --> 00:01:17.680 I worked in more corporate America space, worked for cute, a few 16 00:01:17.760 --> 00:01:23.120 tech teams and then I moved into understanding how difficult it was to hire engineers. 17 00:01:23.200 --> 00:01:27.319 Right now, this is about when cloud computing took off, for just 18 00:01:27.519 --> 00:01:34.319 reference, and one of my one of my jobs was to educate everyone on 19 00:01:34.359 --> 00:01:40.319 cloud computing and through that I've found a startup that was later turned to my 20 00:01:40.359 --> 00:01:46.319 first like real position in this space. I started a startup called a cloud 21 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:49.840 guru. I was the first marketer for that company. That grew from in 22 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:55.560 five years we were about to under or Twentyzero when I joined. We just 23 00:01:55.640 --> 00:02:00.239 sold for two billion. So that's exciting. Yeah, so through that I 24 00:02:00.319 --> 00:02:05.920 watched the market change and now I'm working full time on just completely marketing two 25 00:02:05.920 --> 00:02:07.960 developers. That's what I do all day. Wow. So how do you 26 00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:14.879 see developers specifically starting to shape the future of marketing and where things are going? 27 00:02:15.400 --> 00:02:17.719 So, if you ever marketed to developers or talked with developers, what 28 00:02:17.759 --> 00:02:23.680 I love about them? I don't mean to generalize everyone together, but right, 29 00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:27.479 right, yeah, some of the strength of that community is, I 30 00:02:27.479 --> 00:02:34.360 would say authenticity. You they really believe in products and when it comes to 31 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.759 marketing they have a very low BS radar, so they leads them to wanting 32 00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:44.960 to try products before they buy them, and it also leads to this thing 33 00:02:44.960 --> 00:02:47.199 that we all are aware of this word of mouth marketing. If you want 34 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:51.759 to make it marketing to developers, you have to really be authentic in your 35 00:02:51.759 --> 00:02:57.400 message and have a product that lines the claims that you're making and you have 36 00:02:57.479 --> 00:03:00.800 to kind of step back out of the way and provide them a mechanism to 37 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:07.120 share it within their communities, so you have the authenticity and community aspect. 38 00:03:07.159 --> 00:03:08.639 What I think is like when I nerd out on this and like, what 39 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:12.719 I think is so interesting and why I think this relates to the future of 40 00:03:12.759 --> 00:03:16.520 marketing is that's always been there. That's like what makes me wake up in 41 00:03:16.560 --> 00:03:21.560 the morning and love marketing the developers, but it I see a lot of 42 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:28.080 similarities and parallels to marketing towards Gen Z in that and the next generation, 43 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:31.759 not just developers, but everyone the next generation, and they're like quests for 44 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:37.520 Truth and quests for ethics and and just because of the world they grew up 45 00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:43.360 and has a lot of similarities to marketing to developers. So specifically, authenticity 46 00:03:43.400 --> 00:03:46.479 and community being things that you see in the next generation and in developers. 47 00:03:46.479 --> 00:03:51.639 Talk a little bit more about why you think maybe this next generation coming up 48 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:57.280 is is so similar what you see specifically in them. So mckinzi has a 49 00:03:57.280 --> 00:04:00.319 really good blog post on this. I they went out and did a lot 50 00:04:00.319 --> 00:04:04.120 of research on Gen Z and understanding. Like what does Gen Z value? 51 00:04:04.560 --> 00:04:10.439 I'm going to compare it to generations above, just for context, I would 52 00:04:10.479 --> 00:04:14.960 say, and it is all about to your point. Literally, how did 53 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:18.480 this generation grow up? What were the social and market, like social economic 54 00:04:18.600 --> 00:04:28.079 situations they grew up in? But Jen why would not jen? Why? 55 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:30.680 The one right before a millennial? Sorry, I can't think of what it 56 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.720 is right now. They really bought purchase for social status. So you can 57 00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:41.240 think of your like role x has or fancy cars, and this research when 58 00:04:41.279 --> 00:04:46.399 you look at millennials, they bought more for the experiences. I totally resonate 59 00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:47.759 with that. Does it yeah, okay, I'm like fallen. That fucking 60 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:50.959 do and it resonated with me. I was like, wait, everyone doesn't 61 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:55.879 want experiences. I didn't know that. Wait, so let me clarify. 62 00:04:55.920 --> 00:05:00.439 So Gen x is the one thing. Yeah, so jen x comes up 63 00:05:00.439 --> 00:05:04.319 in a culture where it's like, let me prove that I'm I made it 64 00:05:04.319 --> 00:05:06.759 by the watch that I wear, by the car that I drive, by 65 00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:11.759 the home that I buy. Then I'm like coming. But think about when 66 00:05:11.800 --> 00:05:15.800 gen x came up in their parents went through the Great Depression. Their parents 67 00:05:15.800 --> 00:05:19.759 went through have yeah, YEP, so it's like yeah, exactly. So 68 00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:24.319 it's like I made it, wow, out of yeah, totally, it's 69 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:28.560 it's coming out of what their parents experienced, even what they are feeling the 70 00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:32.839 repercussions of, and so physical stuff becomes the thing and then they reach a 71 00:05:32.839 --> 00:05:36.879 point where then we feel the impact right where it's like, okay, we 72 00:05:36.920 --> 00:05:41.160 don't want the physical stuff anymore because we saw our parents get it and that 73 00:05:41.199 --> 00:05:46.079 clearly wasn't really the thing, the answer. Oh my gosh, preach, 74 00:05:46.120 --> 00:05:48.600 we are going down like some psychology, like what is the true meaning of 75 00:05:48.639 --> 00:05:53.040 life? Things like yes, we're all tryings. Yeah, it is like 76 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:57.480 a learned thing from your parents. Oh, I saw my parents have everything 77 00:05:57.560 --> 00:06:00.079 and they weren't happy, like not to the dark hair, like maybe not. 78 00:06:00.720 --> 00:06:03.040 Okay, so maybe there's something else. Maybe I'm going to go out 79 00:06:03.079 --> 00:06:10.279 and seek experiences to find that. millennials, YEP, okay. So, 80 00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:14.319 but then we are at a place now where we're seeing it shift again, 81 00:06:14.399 --> 00:06:20.199 and I mean millennials, like the upper aged millennials, are having kids and 82 00:06:20.279 --> 00:06:25.680 even though we as millennials settled down a lot less quickly than our parents did. 83 00:06:25.680 --> 00:06:29.680 There's another generation coming underneath us, which is Gen Z. and so 84 00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:32.959 what do you think? Are they rebelling against the experience thing or what makes 85 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:38.360 them go so far digital? Because they are way further into the digital space 86 00:06:38.399 --> 00:06:43.560 and that's a shift that you would identify right. Yes, I think it. 87 00:06:43.800 --> 00:06:47.240 I don't know if I would say rebelling against the experience thing. Experience 88 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:53.439 just means something different to Gen z. If I'm like completely honest, I 89 00:06:53.439 --> 00:06:59.319 have so much faith in this next generation coming up because they came up in 90 00:06:59.360 --> 00:07:03.519 a completely digital native environment. Things that are normal to them or just not 91 00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:11.560 normal to the generations above. It is normal to have really real relationships with 92 00:07:11.560 --> 00:07:15.920 people that they have maybe never met. So digital communities, it's all so 93 00:07:16.240 --> 00:07:21.399 normal to be a little bit more, I would see, like open and 94 00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:26.399 like questioning of like what is truth. So you can take that in like 95 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:30.439 gender norms, for example, if you're trying to market to Gen Z. 96 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:31.759 Sorry, we're going on Gen Z now. Now I'm going in a rabbit 97 00:07:31.800 --> 00:07:36.759 hole. No, that's good. Yeah, like there it's a little less 98 00:07:36.759 --> 00:07:41.680 black and white and a little bit more open to having the conversation of just 99 00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:46.639 like maybe there is some different polarities here. I guess I play. But 100 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:50.360 with that comes this like I would say the overarching umbrella of Gen Z is 101 00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:54.680 truth and it is like I want to be able to bring my true, 102 00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:58.360 authentic self to the world, and that's why you have some of those gender 103 00:07:58.399 --> 00:08:03.160 conversations, but also where this king tie into like all of the stuff we 104 00:08:03.160 --> 00:08:07.360 can nerd out on later about like digital world's Meta versus Lah is just like 105 00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:15.120 how can I be my most authentic self to in a social like social media, 106 00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:20.920 digital asque environment? And when I when you start going down that rabbit 107 00:08:20.040 --> 00:08:24.759 trill talking more to Jen z specifically, man, it gets me thinking about 108 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:28.959 a couple things, one being most millennials also would fall in the category of 109 00:08:30.000 --> 00:08:33.519 this term you use, like digital natives. There is like I can tell 110 00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:39.399 you I don't remember a time in my life where I didn't have access to 111 00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:43.360 the Internet, but the difference would be the evolution of the Internet in my 112 00:08:43.399 --> 00:08:48.200 lifetime I can remember. Versus Gen Z would be like. I mean they 113 00:08:48.240 --> 00:08:54.039 are brought up in social media right, so it's like it's not just the 114 00:08:54.080 --> 00:08:58.360 Internet, it's social media specifically and really being like baptized into that type of 115 00:08:58.399 --> 00:09:01.759 culture where it's just it is everywhere and it's soaked into everything. I would 116 00:09:01.799 --> 00:09:07.919 say social media is more of a millennial culture thing than the next culture. 117 00:09:07.960 --> 00:09:11.279 It's not looked at the same so the millennials tend to get a bad rap 118 00:09:11.360 --> 00:09:16.480 for being the me generation. This is totally so. What is our like? 119 00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:20.399 Vice Social Media? You get to put the perfect version of me out 120 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:28.919 there. Gen Z's came up more in a digital native in like I think 121 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:33.679 you would be really surprised at the level of technical capabilities that some of the 122 00:09:33.720 --> 00:09:37.120 younger folks have just because of how they brought up. So if you look 123 00:09:37.120 --> 00:09:41.879 on like Youtube, these twelve year olds are making these like really, really 124 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:45.759 well done videos. I'm like, how do you know after effects? How 125 00:09:45.799 --> 00:09:48.200 are you doing this? Like they're not in marketing. It's just because of 126 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:52.519 the world that they were brought up. They have different tools of different like 127 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:56.759 expectations for themselves. But anyway we wind. For me, let's go back 128 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:01.000 to gen x. How were they marketed at versus? Then we can, 129 00:10:01.039 --> 00:10:03.639 you know, fast forward maybe to us as millennials and then Gen z. 130 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:07.360 But how have we seen the evolution there and marketing specifically to the generation before 131 00:10:07.480 --> 00:10:11.879 us. I think the key differences is the number of channels that you had 132 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:16.200 to reach a customer. So the channels that you had. You had TV, 133 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:20.600 you had radio, you had newspaper magazines, print, but the big 134 00:10:20.639 --> 00:10:24.360 differences that you had to pay to play in a channels, meaning you had 135 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:30.840 to have enough capital to be able to afford a TV slot. And the 136 00:10:30.840 --> 00:10:35.279 people that I did have enough capital. They really were focused on brand awareness 137 00:10:35.360 --> 00:10:39.559 in the essence of remembering their brand. So I use Cocacola as the example. 138 00:10:39.559 --> 00:10:43.360 But you remember Coke's logo and they've really push the logo, and this 139 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:48.440 is where some of the misconceptions of branding come from today. They really pushing 140 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:52.279 the logo so that when you're walking down the supermarket isle you see Cocacola, 141 00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:56.759 you remember the commercial, you buy it. It's not just in marketing, 142 00:10:56.799 --> 00:11:03.240 like in consumer product marketing, it's also marketing in music. The reason that 143 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:05.720 you had these mega stars like the Beatles or the rolling stones, etc. 144 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:11.759 Is because you had to have a lot of money to get a message around 145 00:11:11.840 --> 00:11:15.159 the world. So there could only be so many folks. Okay, so 146 00:11:15.279 --> 00:11:20.919 that's what was happening before, and what completely changed all that was Internet. 147 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:24.000 So with the rise of the Internet, there's so many different channels to reach 148 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:30.879 customers that now it took away the big barrier to entry, which was money, 149 00:11:31.480 --> 00:11:37.120 but it added new difficulties, which is saturation. There's so many messages 150 00:11:37.159 --> 00:11:41.399 now, there's so much information coming at people that like cognitively we're not able 151 00:11:41.440 --> 00:11:48.480 to absorb all of it. So the the companies that stick out today currently 152 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:52.279 are the companies that can break through that noise. They can do something differently, 153 00:11:52.399 --> 00:11:58.720 they they can resonate with a certain audience. In the immediate future, 154 00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:03.840 like the next one of two to three years, I would see almost all 155 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:11.159 be tob companies moving towards at least a product leg growth play or, better 156 00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:15.039 case, the ones that like really get it to a community like growth play. 157 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:18.320 It makes sense now with the shift, you have to have your product 158 00:12:18.519 --> 00:12:22.559 leading front and center. What changed in each generation? It was the channels. 159 00:12:22.600 --> 00:12:26.679 The channels change. Yeah, we have all these channels now, but 160 00:12:26.840 --> 00:12:33.279 the the companies that are really really making it, the ones who I'm going 161 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:37.480 to use wortle as an example. Are you familiar with wortle? I am 162 00:12:37.519 --> 00:12:39.960 familiar with worldle. I don't want to be but it's everywhere. Okay, 163 00:12:41.039 --> 00:12:43.840 let's use wordle before I tell you my point. wortle. No one knew 164 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:48.360 what worldl was in November, and we're doing this in early February. Bortle 165 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:52.840 just got bought for like a billion dollars, I think, like a be 166 00:12:54.440 --> 00:12:58.000 in it. No one even knew what it was four years ago. Why? 167 00:12:58.039 --> 00:13:03.399 The channel that matters today is word of mouth, and that's why product 168 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:09.799 leg growth allows word of mouth marketing. People don't really listen to claims as 169 00:13:09.879 --> 00:13:11.320 much. I think this changes, though, when you get higher up in 170 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:18.279 an organization, like if you're selling into a VPS, vpcto like the the 171 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:24.639 traditional sales led tactics are appropriate, but for the majority through, like if 172 00:13:24.679 --> 00:13:30.360 you're trying to create demand, build an audience, be a household name, 173 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:33.600 you have to understand word of mouth marketing and I think the first step of 174 00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:39.320 that is product like growth marketing. HMM, and word of mouth has always 175 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:43.240 been effective, but then it's just like it kind of shifts in a way, 176 00:13:43.240 --> 00:13:48.960 because you word of mouth then also done online and shared globally, is 177 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:52.799 so easily right that it's like it amplifies it even more. What I know 178 00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:58.320 doubt on and like what I do for a living, is word of mouth 179 00:13:58.399 --> 00:14:01.639 marketing. Sounds like it's something that you don't have control over, but you 180 00:14:01.679 --> 00:14:05.679 can. You do, but it's harder because what you need to do to 181 00:14:05.720 --> 00:14:11.279 have control over it is to have a good product that actually works and that 182 00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:15.840 you understand what your customers pain points are, and you have to really do 183 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.639 the work internally and believe in it and then go out into the market like 184 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:24.840 that. It's it's just it requires a little bit more soul searching and time 185 00:14:24.000 --> 00:14:28.519 and that space. Yeah, to really practice what you preach, I'd say. 186 00:14:28.799 --> 00:14:33.639 But that lines up with the future of what we're even saying generationally right, 187 00:14:33.720 --> 00:14:37.919 because that long ticity and ethics is like an absolute must, whereas I 188 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:43.360 think, and we can talk specifically about be to be brands in the SAS 189 00:14:43.360 --> 00:14:46.320 space, because I think there's a reputation right now, and you can tell 190 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:50.919 me if I'm wrong, but I see a lot of like cold marketing that 191 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:56.519 seems still generationally out of touch now, and so that evolution has to happen 192 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:01.399 and ends up lining really lining up really well word of mouth with this authenticity 193 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.399 and ethics piece. I think that, like no one wants to put out 194 00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:09.559 cold marketing, as you and I like that term. No one aims to 195 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:13.120 do that from a marketing department, but it really sends from like the culture 196 00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:18.480 and the values internally that, whether your intentions are, it's what you produce 197 00:15:18.600 --> 00:15:24.080 at the end. Why? I think what is going to change that is 198 00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:26.919 with this new generation and what is coming. I think those players won't win 199 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:33.399 anymore. They can win despite that, but I think less and less there 200 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:39.120 is going to be any appetite for that type of marketing. So I think 201 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:43.159 be too, be marketers, really need to take a look at themselves and 202 00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:46.679 got and not literally, but more of like ethos way think of themselves, 203 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:52.200 of be Toc marketers right, which I think is happening a little bit more, 204 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:56.000 as you're starting to I feel like I've ended up in a couple conversations 205 00:15:56.000 --> 00:16:00.200 recently where it's like be to be marketers looking at BEC world and not just 206 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:02.360 being like and I wish I was over there, but like Oh, we 207 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:04.759 can create our own, I don't know, sand box to play in over 208 00:16:04.799 --> 00:16:10.399 here too. Yeah, this one simple way I train my teams on that 209 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:14.679 is it's the difference between if you're writing a piece. Even you're a beby 210 00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:18.480 company and you're writing a email to many people, picture one person in your 211 00:16:18.480 --> 00:16:22.639 mind that's going to read it. Give that person a name, give them 212 00:16:22.639 --> 00:16:26.440 a name, look around their world and then write it. That's the be 213 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:30.279 TOC mindset and a be tob marketer. Okay, so one of the things 214 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:33.840 we talked about offline that I have to bring up here. We talked about 215 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.440 how there's this other inflection point that's that were aware of right now, and 216 00:16:37.480 --> 00:16:42.080 some people are maybe early adopters in this space because it's just developing, which 217 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:48.399 is the announcement of the metaverse and this advancement of like digital first. Right. 218 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:52.360 So we talked digital natives, but like digital first is this reality you 219 00:16:52.440 --> 00:16:59.039 see a need for kind of brands really think through their future strategy. Daniell, 220 00:16:59.080 --> 00:17:02.399 tell me what excites you the most about that and what you think we're 221 00:17:02.440 --> 00:17:06.880 going to start to see people trying in that space? Okay, yes, 222 00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:08.839 and this is the place. Definitely. I say, I'm not an expert. 223 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:12.440 If anyone claims to be an expert on this, don't trust them because 224 00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:17.480 web three, metaverse, it hasn't even been come defined yet. It isn't 225 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:21.559 be an extatic talk. Yeah, like you looks cannot be. You can 226 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:25.240 just be someone that's read a lot and it's been on a lot of twitter, 227 00:17:26.759 --> 00:17:30.319 but we can. Let's talk about some practical changes, but more what 228 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:34.319 we've been talking about the entire time. Like in this world, authenticity, 229 00:17:34.400 --> 00:17:41.759 ethics and community are all that matter. I would recommend anyone that is interested 230 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:48.799 in this topic read a article by Matthew Ball. It's called like what is 231 00:17:48.839 --> 00:17:52.079 the metaverse, where to find it and who will build it? And there's 232 00:17:52.160 --> 00:17:56.039 some he does a really good job at explaining, like what are the tenets 233 00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:00.920 of this future web three, metaverse, whatever that they are building on? 234 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:04.000 Some of those tenants that are going to impact me, to be marketing, 235 00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:11.759 are this concept of persistence. If you if you're familiar with gaming, I 236 00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:15.079 think a lot of people go to gaming to understand this. It's like I 237 00:18:15.079 --> 00:18:18.519 walk into one game, when I walk in an animal crossing and I'm wearing 238 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:21.799 a red hat. Well, when I walk into Halo II, should also 239 00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:26.480 be wearing that red hat, like between these worlds, you as an entity 240 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:32.359 have to be persistent. What that means for me, to be marketing is 241 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:37.920 that whatever product that you're building, it will have to play by the rules 242 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:42.839 that are defined when these rules are defined, which means you're going to need 243 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:48.640 a lot of Dev and technical hires on your team, or or access to 244 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:53.160 them if you would like donals or set to be able to build your product 245 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:57.880 in a way that communicates in this web three world, just like you built 246 00:18:57.960 --> 00:19:02.839 a website that communicates in web too. It's the same thing, just we 247 00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:11.240 don't know what it is yet. It's one and the other big one, 248 00:19:11.480 --> 00:19:17.079 having like a fully functioning current like economy or currency in this new place, 249 00:19:18.079 --> 00:19:22.440 getting into crypto. I know that doesn't sound like it's a marketings job. 250 00:19:22.920 --> 00:19:27.799 That probably is. More operations are finance and obviously cryptos not like completely bought 251 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:33.000 in yet, but like, at this point we will be moving into something 252 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:34.720 that is not the same world that we are living in today. So I 253 00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:41.240 think that it is important that you're least educating yourself and thinking about if I'm 254 00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:45.119 going to be accepting currency in another form, just like if you are going 255 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:48.039 to accept the Indian dollar or something like. Not Dollar, but you know 256 00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:51.599 what I'm saying. Yep, just another currency, like how is that going 257 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:56.200 to impact my marketing strategy? Hm, both great points. I imagine, 258 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.799 and again this is maybe the pessimist side of me, but I imagine, 259 00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:07.759 like be to be too often being last into this next phase where it's going 260 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:12.440 to be done at like almost out of just sheer necessity. Right, like 261 00:20:12.440 --> 00:20:17.039 we're going to drag some of the be to be space into this world because 262 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:19.920 they're like kicking and screaming, but they know that they have to do it 263 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:23.759 and it'll be like half baked in it. But then there's going to be 264 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:29.640 for runners who do it like really, really well and can pull it off 265 00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:33.319 in an authentic way, in a way that's exciting, and we all know 266 00:20:33.400 --> 00:20:36.559 there's like there's companies out there that are going to do this high level. 267 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:41.119 I wonder what if you were like unlimited budget, Danielle, and you got 268 00:20:41.160 --> 00:20:45.519 to create something in this space? Is What do you think, like be 269 00:20:45.640 --> 00:20:48.720 to be should be trying? What would you try? Like, do you 270 00:20:48.799 --> 00:20:51.960 have any thoughts? There were like it'd be so exciting to do or try 271 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:56.400 this thing. Oh my gosh, let's talk today. Let's be really practical 272 00:20:56.400 --> 00:21:00.960 and like, because I once again we don't know what it's going to be. 273 00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:03.119 It's not like it's ready player one and like we're just building ready, 274 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:08.039 player one like that's not though. They are. They are now accepting loans. 275 00:21:08.039 --> 00:21:11.920 Did you see that? They are. You can get a long property. 276 00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:15.839 Yeah, you can get alone to buy property in the metavers. So 277 00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:18.680 I'm not quite there yet, but all right, you have it. Today. 278 00:21:18.839 --> 00:21:22.440 Actually, what I think it's going to be, and this is whatever 279 00:21:22.480 --> 00:21:25.400 the data is today. Thoughts. I think it's going to be the actual 280 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:27.440 world that we live in today, but with more of like a Hologram type 281 00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:33.799 thing. So maybe the one is you, the one you have your goggles 282 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:37.200 on and you can see your friends sitting next to you and like they kind 283 00:21:37.240 --> 00:21:40.799 of look like a Hologram, but like you can still have a conversation with 284 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:45.039 them. And then the technology evolves in the the just like think about cell 285 00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:47.599 phones. Cell phones were really big and now they can get really small. 286 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:51.759 Well, we've got goggles right now. What if that someday moves into a 287 00:21:51.880 --> 00:21:55.400 contact Lens, and now I'm talking Black Mirror stuff, but it's all real, 288 00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:59.440 and then your friend doesn't look like a fuzzy Hologram. Your friend looks 289 00:21:59.480 --> 00:22:02.880 like your actual friend. It's maybe so in your world, like what you're 290 00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:07.440 saying is like almost like more augmented reality. It starts the lines between VR 291 00:22:07.480 --> 00:22:11.759 and a are start to blur a little bit more. Yes, but taking 292 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:15.200 this back to beb marketing, because now I'm just getting into SCI FI convers 293 00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:18.400 and stunt sci fi. But you give me in the BEDB marketing some of 294 00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:22.279 the things that you can tantually do today, the one that exists. This 295 00:22:22.359 --> 00:22:26.640 is not for everyone, but if I had money, what I would do? 296 00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:33.519 I would host a conference in the Metaphor First World that exists today, 297 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.200 post a conference, host meet up, have some especially if you're in a 298 00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:41.480 more like tech, like I work and in technology. So that makes sense 299 00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:45.200 for my brand. But if you are in a more innovative brand and or 300 00:22:45.240 --> 00:22:51.640 you're trying to connect with developers, that's a way that you probably can't mess 301 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:56.240 that up. Can't do in a really unauthentic way or in authentic site. 302 00:22:56.279 --> 00:23:00.359 The other thing that I see a lot of big brands doing, the have 303 00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:06.519 a lot of money, are creating their own nfts. Yeah, I I 304 00:23:06.519 --> 00:23:10.880 think that there is a lot of merit in nft world and I think that 305 00:23:10.920 --> 00:23:17.359 it is the first tempt or the beginning of what may happen with branding. 306 00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:22.480 I don't think many companies can authentically create an NFT. I don't think a 307 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:27.240 company can, because, if you it really has to be individual led, 308 00:23:27.799 --> 00:23:33.759 like these communities are people speaking on their own opinions. So if you are 309 00:23:33.799 --> 00:23:36.920 a bebby company and you want to try and I t's or you want to 310 00:23:36.920 --> 00:23:40.160 try to get in that world, I would look for a creator that you 311 00:23:40.200 --> 00:23:44.839 can partner with in like learn, but it has to be someone that already 312 00:23:44.920 --> 00:23:48.519 lives in that world for it to feel real. Like you, yeah, 313 00:23:48.640 --> 00:23:51.119 for the best thing you can do today is just learn about it so that 314 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:56.880 it doesn't feel in authentic. Creators is such a big part of this, 315 00:23:56.000 --> 00:24:00.559 because one thing I will say. I don't know if you feel this way 316 00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:03.720 too, but I think the next generation coming up, and I would I 317 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:07.799 would put millennials slightly in this camp as well, but there's like a genuine 318 00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:15.359 sort of lack of trust of institutions, and so if beatobe companies aren't careful, 319 00:24:15.400 --> 00:24:18.440 they just get lumped in in that same kind of Oh, this big 320 00:24:18.599 --> 00:24:23.759 organization with these invisible men that sit at some table somewhere making decision. You 321 00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:27.880 know what I mean, like there's just a miss, there's a lack of 322 00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:33.319 trust. There so when you get into individuals, create creators who people are 323 00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:37.480 excited about and like, that's it's very grass roots, right, and it 324 00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:42.680 goes back to community where there is this level of like we know there's, 325 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:47.000 I don't know, off the the words you were using right, community authenticity. 326 00:24:47.160 --> 00:24:51.240 I thinks like I end up back there. So give me maybe any 327 00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:55.240 more examples of and it could be in BETC or other companies that you're looking 328 00:24:55.279 --> 00:24:59.200 at, but are there any examples of people that you think are doing this 329 00:24:59.279 --> 00:25:03.799 really well right now? Yeah, right, yeah, I'll give you examples 330 00:25:03.799 --> 00:25:08.680 and also give you an article because I just love reading. I just found, 331 00:25:08.759 --> 00:25:14.440 I stumbled upon this article by like a young gentleman is his name is 332 00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:19.440 Duncan elder, and it was community led growth, something, something, the 333 00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:26.000 key to acquisition, and it was on the tribecommerce. Anyway, it articulated 334 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:29.319 exactly what we're talking about so well that I would really encourage people to go 335 00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:33.640 read it. And it is that movement of be too be companies can feel 336 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:38.039 authentic. It's because you just need to be in a community and talk about 337 00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:42.079 something that you like. Pick your community needs to be small and and be 338 00:25:42.240 --> 00:25:47.440 true to that community. So examples of ones that I think do well. 339 00:25:48.039 --> 00:25:53.480 I would say I just talk to the are just listen to an interview with 340 00:25:53.559 --> 00:25:59.599 like the growth lead from off zero. It's not a household name, but 341 00:25:59.759 --> 00:26:04.000 it's more in the developer side. So that's why everyone pretty much uses all 342 00:26:04.079 --> 00:26:10.400 zero and their websites. And like how did that happen? That happen from 343 00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:15.039 developers. So my world's developers, but apply this to whatever your world is. 344 00:26:15.559 --> 00:26:18.279 Developers Finding, oh there's a better way to do this problem, really 345 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:23.039 liking the product, recommending it to other people and instead of all zero going 346 00:26:23.039 --> 00:26:27.640 out and in just speaking like we are all zero whatever, they created a 347 00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:36.039 whole bunch of resources to serve at their community of people, like they knew 348 00:26:36.119 --> 00:26:41.880 that's what they authentically could talk about and put all these resources out there and 349 00:26:41.960 --> 00:26:45.920 now pretty much everyone uses all Sero. HMM. So one of the take 350 00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:49.039 ones I would even get from that, like is the movement away, and 351 00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:52.359 I know even be to be seems a little bit slow in this, but 352 00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:56.480 it's getting there. Like no more pay walls for a lot of this. 353 00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:00.200 Yes, you know that. Yeah, the research you're doing, like that's 354 00:27:00.240 --> 00:27:03.640 a yeah, there is no a paid I think paid ads are even kind 355 00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:08.400 of silly. I think paid ads should be like brand awareness only, or 356 00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:14.960 just like how do you want people to think about your company? Or feel, 357 00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.359 maybe feel is a better word about your company. But yeah, like 358 00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:22.880 put in everything behind a pay while making it. You download this Ebook, 359 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:29.240 it's going to give you x points on your like mql to SQL score like. 360 00:27:29.559 --> 00:27:33.359 That is traditional marketing and that's the stuff that is going to hold companies 361 00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:37.400 back from doing what people actually want. If you do a lot of what 362 00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:41.880 people want and like enjoy interacting with your company, they're going to recommend your 363 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:47.799 company to other people. H that's good and yeah, be kind of paying 364 00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:56.279 attention to their Um this I think that you need. So where the world's 365 00:27:56.359 --> 00:28:03.240 going is when we say community. That's so broad right. Really think small 366 00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:07.720 communities. So you can say, like I'm in if you own. Sorry, 367 00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:11.160 I just can speak for my own world a little bit better because I've 368 00:28:11.160 --> 00:28:15.240 thought of it. But like say, I live in the developer community. 369 00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:21.519 Well, there are so many sub sets of that. Where can I live 370 00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:26.000 and create value the most? Start there instead of trying to cover all of 371 00:28:26.039 --> 00:28:30.240 them, because you go into one community and then you can look around and 372 00:28:30.319 --> 00:28:34.240 see who are the like buddies of that community and then bring them in. 373 00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:41.480 That's like it. That's really a down up movement. And then your sales 374 00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:45.880 team, once that once a company, once you've infitrated a company with that 375 00:28:45.960 --> 00:28:49.240 down up movement, then your sales team can easily go sell into the people 376 00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:53.759 that actually have the pocketbooks. We are be to be like your VP's and 377 00:28:53.799 --> 00:28:57.640 above and say hey, a hundred of your people are already using my product. 378 00:28:57.799 --> 00:29:02.279 Would you like to learn more? Much easier cold call than have you 379 00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:07.000 heard of Xyz? HMM, yeah, I love that. That that motion 380 00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:10.920 of like these are the people in the company are already using it. Like 381 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:18.400 that's then it becomes almost like a nobrainer. Right, exactly the this is 382 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:21.279 everyone uses this. But, like, I was really trying to think of 383 00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:25.200 examples and they're very, very few. Be To be examples that I think 384 00:29:25.200 --> 00:29:30.480 do well. I think it's because there's this inflection in every betb company where 385 00:29:30.480 --> 00:29:34.079 they have the opportunity to stay in their small community and it really dive deep 386 00:29:34.119 --> 00:29:37.039 in it and when they have the opportunity to make a lot of money really 387 00:29:37.039 --> 00:29:41.039 fast, and people typically pick that one and then they start doing all of 388 00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:45.519 those tendencies we just talked about. Like I want to watch wortle word all. 389 00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:48.960 Three months from now, I bet is going to have a million ads 390 00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:51.920 on it. It's going to let you play like all day and get you 391 00:29:51.960 --> 00:29:55.720 addicted to it and like it's just going to lose that authenticity. But I 392 00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:03.039 think apple is the example of how to You keep standards, Hie, how 393 00:30:03.079 --> 00:30:07.200 to make it feel like you're marketing to one person and makes them feel cool, 394 00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:10.920 even though when you go started a company you have two options, pc 395 00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:14.920 or apple. They are be tob business more than anyone else. So Hmm, 396 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:18.680 yeah, I mean I'm interested to see what happens with going back to 397 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.680 a wortle like getting bought by the New York Times. I think it's an 398 00:30:21.680 --> 00:30:25.680 interesting play. It'll be fun to kind of watch that what happens there. 399 00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:29.640 Apple is a great example. Another example that you might have mentioned last time 400 00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:33.319 came back to my mind just now is is canva. CANAVA is. It 401 00:30:33.480 --> 00:30:40.119 spans kind of multiple because it's for individual creators, but it's clearly also like 402 00:30:40.160 --> 00:30:44.119 I know they market specifically to teachers. They definitely do some things in like 403 00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:48.079 business and want social media marketers to like use their platform so I think there 404 00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:53.559 would be a good it has a very good like freemium type. You know, 405 00:30:53.720 --> 00:31:00.519 interface love that example. Yeah, can't got big quickly and they still 406 00:31:00.599 --> 00:31:03.559 let you use the product for free. And then you don't remove that, 407 00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:06.279 you could be hitting so many pay walls because you're like, Oh man, 408 00:31:06.359 --> 00:31:08.359 people know us now, like we're going to get more money from this. 409 00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:12.200 But like they so stood true to themselves, so good for them. Yeah, 410 00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:17.480 the number of like free templates on their fonts, like they are constantly 411 00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:21.319 expanding at a rate that I feel is very surprising in the in the free 412 00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:26.000 side of things, you need to have like sea level people with enough gumption 413 00:31:26.759 --> 00:31:30.279 to say I believe this is going to work, even though there's a million 414 00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:33.079 examples that it does work. Like it comes down to, it's a lot 415 00:31:33.119 --> 00:31:37.359 easier to put a pay wall or a lot easier to say let's not give 416 00:31:37.400 --> 00:31:41.799 them all of these templates for free. It's if logically feels right, but 417 00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:45.079 it doesn't work in the end and I think the next generation of people are 418 00:31:45.119 --> 00:31:48.720 just going to have no time for that at all. HMM. Okay, 419 00:31:48.799 --> 00:31:55.079 so I love talking in in theory. I love hearing your thoughts and ideas. 420 00:31:55.119 --> 00:31:56.480 I think as we start to wrap up here, one thing I'd want 421 00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:04.039 to do is go what are we telling people to focus on as they leave 422 00:32:04.119 --> 00:32:07.839 this conversation? Right, Daniel? So, like, is there any thing 423 00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:12.880 that you would want to say as you go away from this show? Be 424 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:16.039 More aware of this, or be curious about this or go read this, 425 00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:20.759 like, what would you push people towards as a as an action item leaving 426 00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:25.079 this conversation? I would that's a good question. I do speak way to 427 00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:30.279 theoretical. Let's try and make this more changeable. If you don't have a 428 00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:35.960 product leg growth strategy within marketing right now, I would go explore that with 429 00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:40.119 your product team. If you don't have a freemium model, I would explore 430 00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:47.640 that with your product team as well. I would start learning about some of 431 00:32:47.680 --> 00:32:53.200 these trends. I would read that article about Gen Z, learn what is 432 00:32:53.240 --> 00:32:59.039 the metaverse, learn what is an Nft, what is cryptocurrency, so that 433 00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:04.200 you don't it's so they don't feel scary. These are all very easy to 434 00:33:04.279 --> 00:33:12.480 understand once you just put in a little bit of time to research them. 435 00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:22.680 And then, once you have product leg growth, do the soul searching to 436 00:33:22.759 --> 00:33:27.039 understand what community that you want to be a part of. And the only 437 00:33:27.079 --> 00:33:30.680 way you can't go out in the world and try to decide that. Get 438 00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:34.720 to look within your company and figure out who are you actually what? What 439 00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:38.160 is that, and then start your strategy there. Feels like this episode comes 440 00:33:38.160 --> 00:33:43.960 back to three words numerous times, which I appreciate because we can leave with 441 00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:49.759 that in our head. But I think community, authenticity and ethics are recurring 442 00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:53.200 themes and things that we should be thinking about in our business right I mean 443 00:33:53.240 --> 00:33:58.920 obviously in our life as well, but that looking within is something that needs 444 00:33:58.960 --> 00:34:01.920 to happen at a personal level and a and a company level where we really 445 00:34:01.960 --> 00:34:06.599 know who we are, and then authenticity, ethics and community flow from that 446 00:34:06.599 --> 00:34:08.559 space. So, Daniel, this has been a really fun conversation. I 447 00:34:08.599 --> 00:34:13.280 love just getting to look into the future and see how the past informs the 448 00:34:13.320 --> 00:34:16.639 present and then the present is informing where we're headed. So thank you for 449 00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:20.719 taking time and being on be to be growth today. For those that want 450 00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:23.039 to stay connected to you and and some of the work you're doing, what's 451 00:34:23.079 --> 00:34:28.320 the best place for people to do that? Add me on Linkedin. Daniel 452 00:34:28.360 --> 00:34:31.199 back toll, I'll accept you. Of Let's talk more. Well, we're 453 00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:36.079 always having conversations like this here on BB growth. If you haven't subscribed to 454 00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:40.360 the show yet, be sure to do that and we're will be back real 455 00:34:40.440 --> 00:34:45.440 soon with another episode. You can follow me on Linkedin. I'd love to 456 00:34:45.480 --> 00:34:49.079 chat with you about business, marketing life. Just Search Benjie Block. Keep 457 00:34:49.079 --> 00:34:52.719 doing work that matters. We'll talk about this be tob growth is brought to 458 00:34:52.760 --> 00:34:55.440 you by the team at sweet fish media. Here at sweet fish, we 459 00:34:55.480 --> 00:35:00.239 produce podcasts for some of the most innovative brands in the world and we help 460 00:35:00.320 --> 00:35:05.159 them turn those podcasts into Microvideos, linkedin content, blog posts and more. 461 00:35:05.280 --> 00:35:08.239 We're on a mission to produce every leader's favorite show. Want more information, 462 00:35:08.320 --> 00:35:10.639 visit sweet PHISH MEDIACOM
