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Sept. 19, 2022

Mental Selling: The Purpose-Driven Salesperson, with Lisa McLeod

In this cross-over episode, we’re sharing an episode from Mental Selling. This show is produced by Sweet Fish Media.
Sales is one of the only professions where we allow it to be defined by the people who do it badly. Top salespeople are ones who...

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B2B Growth
In this cross-over episode, we’re sharing an episode from Mental Selling. This show is produced by Sweet Fish Media.
Sales is one of the only professions where we allow it to be defined by the people who do it badly. Top salespeople are ones who earnestly want to improve life for their customers. When purpose driven sales becomes part of the culture and bigger than the transaction- and your ‘true north’ is improving life for customers- you’ll actually wind up making more money.
Successful salespeople want to know that what they’re doing counts for something- that their work matters. If what you are selling is being bought by customers, you’re improving their lives.
Hear our conversation with Lisa Earle McLeod, Founder at McLeod & More, Inc. and author of the bestseller Selling with Noble Purpose.
We discuss:
3 questions to ask that every salesperson should be able to answer
The real reasons salespeople leave their jobs
How the noble seller differs from the transactional seller
The difference between customer-centricity and purpose-driven sales
Overcoming the negative external perceptions of sales with confidence- and how your customers will feel it
The “it” that customers really want you to get to…
What mistaking profit for their purpose signals to your salespeople and employees
Why sales numbers are a lagging indicator and sales leaders need to coach to mindsets vs. outcomes
Why the people that have bought from you before are the key to understanding how your products make a difference
Sales managers as the “front-line belief builders” 


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Transcript
WEBVTT 1 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:12.880 Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two, B growth. 2 00:00:17.760 --> 00:00:21.640 Welcome in today I am here with will Milano. He is the vice 3 00:00:21.679 --> 00:00:27.079 president of marketing over at integrity solutions and he's the host of mental selling, 4 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:32.119 the sales performance podcast. WILL WELCOME TO B to be growth. Thanks, 5 00:00:32.119 --> 00:00:35.640 Benji. Thanks very much. Great to join you. Yeah, so we're 6 00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:40.079 gonna do a crossover episode here in a few minutes and we're gonna highlight one 7 00:00:40.119 --> 00:00:43.640 of the best episodes from from your show, mental selling, but I wanted 8 00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:47.439 to just get inside your mind as the host and talk a little bit about 9 00:00:47.479 --> 00:00:51.039 your show before we feature an episode. So tell us a little bit, 10 00:00:51.079 --> 00:00:56.479 maybe the elevator pitch of sorts behind mental selling the sales performance podcast. Will. 11 00:00:56.920 --> 00:01:00.960 So mental selling is really getting to the heart of what are those mental 12 00:01:02.000 --> 00:01:07.480 and emotional and motivational things that drive sales success. So we talked to leaders 13 00:01:07.680 --> 00:01:11.959 from across a lot of different industries and get their input on those things and 14 00:01:12.040 --> 00:01:18.599 also from the customer perspective, what does the customer want and expect today from 15 00:01:18.640 --> 00:01:23.040 the modern seller? And then we also get into the aspect of the sales 16 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:30.680 leader and what his or her mindset needs to be as they especially as a 17 00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:37.120 newly promoted sales leader, shifts from an individual contributor to somebody that's leading and 18 00:01:37.519 --> 00:01:41.799 trying to motivate their own sales team. And what? What's the tremendous mindset 19 00:01:41.879 --> 00:01:45.040 shift that has to happen there for them to succeed as a sales leader? 20 00:01:45.560 --> 00:01:49.040 Yeah, I'm all about mindset shifts. We talked about that from a marketing 21 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:52.879 perspective often here on B two B growth actually, because I think podcasting is 22 00:01:52.920 --> 00:01:57.239 a great platform for having something shift internally and the way you think about your 23 00:01:57.319 --> 00:02:01.319 job versus maybe you know you're you could be on a run, you could 24 00:02:01.319 --> 00:02:05.159 be doing the dishes when you're listening to this podcast. So it's harder to 25 00:02:05.239 --> 00:02:07.479 like take all these super detailed notes, but you could have a mental shift 26 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:09.360 or you're like, oh, yeah, I should think about it this way. 27 00:02:09.680 --> 00:02:15.039 So I love I love offering those up through the podcast medium and the 28 00:02:15.080 --> 00:02:19.360 platform. You know, there's there's so much that goes into it from the 29 00:02:19.400 --> 00:02:24.280 standpoint of how a salesperson views their role and what are they actually doing for 30 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:30.479 and with customers versus two customers, uh, their view of just what selling 31 00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:34.319 is itself. A lot of people end up in a sales career and sales 32 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:38.680 roles sort of accidentally, for lack of a better term. People don't major 33 00:02:38.719 --> 00:02:40.879 in sales in college, that sort of thing, Um, and a lot 34 00:02:40.919 --> 00:02:46.280 of people have baggage around the idea of just being a salesperson, and so 35 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:51.360 those things along with just there. Are Their values aligned with the organization that 36 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:55.240 they work for and, Um, do they again believe in in their core 37 00:02:55.319 --> 00:03:00.000 and the products and services that they're representing? If they don't have a line 38 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:04.759 men around those things, all of this sort of how to us and product 39 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:08.960 information and things like that will ultimately be for not. Yeah, I wonder, 40 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:14.400 as you are working in creating this show, are you just thinking of 41 00:03:14.439 --> 00:03:17.280 salespeople broadly? Is there a specific type of person that this show is meant 42 00:03:17.319 --> 00:03:22.800 to serve and in the type of person you hope tunes in? Well, 43 00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:30.479 ideally we're talking speaking to the salesperson that already is values driven and believes that 44 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:36.639 their role is to make their customers lives better and to help them solve for 45 00:03:36.759 --> 00:03:42.240 needs that that maybe or even needs that the customer doesn't even realize that that 46 00:03:42.360 --> 00:03:46.039 they have. So we're speaking to both those individual sales people again, as 47 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:50.680 well as the sales leaders, you know. So we're we're focused on those 48 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:55.159 people that are relationship minded, trying to get more relationship minded. Their their 49 00:03:55.240 --> 00:04:00.960 values driven, Um, and they're really committed to making their stomers lives better 50 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:06.039 and and creating amazing customer experiences for those that they serve. Fantastic. Well, 51 00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:11.840 let's talk about the episode we're about to highlight the purpose driven salesperson. 52 00:04:11.879 --> 00:04:15.319 Tell me a little bit about why you would choose to highlight this episode and 53 00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:17.800 the value were about to to get out of it. Yeah, so this 54 00:04:17.800 --> 00:04:23.800 this conversation Um, the noble purpose driven salesperson. It's with someone I've known 55 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:27.759 for for several years now. Her name is Lisa Earl McLeod Um. She 56 00:04:27.920 --> 00:04:31.199 authored a book called selling with noble purpose and I heard her speak at a 57 00:04:31.240 --> 00:04:35.000 conference years ago and when I started hosting this podcast, she was one of 58 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:40.000 the very first people I thought about because I believe that her, her point 59 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:44.800 of view around selling is just the most closely aligned to what we're talking about 60 00:04:44.800 --> 00:04:48.079 about what makes a salesperson successful. And so she talks a lot in this 61 00:04:48.160 --> 00:04:55.199 episode about, you know, those critical emotional and psychological drivers and and how 62 00:04:55.680 --> 00:05:00.319 you know she's done research through this book that she wrote that you this is 63 00:05:00.319 --> 00:05:04.160 a very data driven thing. Um, that sales people that are committed to 64 00:05:04.279 --> 00:05:09.040 making their customers lives better and that's the attitude that they bring to their job 65 00:05:09.399 --> 00:05:14.240 every day, that they're simply more successful, way more successful, Um, 66 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:16.759 than those that don't have that point of view and are just there to sort 67 00:05:16.759 --> 00:05:21.079 of win, and maybe even win at the expense of the customer. MM. 68 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:26.759 Well, I'm excited to listen to this episode. Get our listeners engaged 69 00:05:26.839 --> 00:05:30.959 here and if people want to stay connected with mental selling with you, what 70 00:05:31.040 --> 00:05:35.120 are the best ways for for people to do that? Yeah, so we 71 00:05:35.240 --> 00:05:40.879 are. Mental selling is on on all the major podcast players. On our 72 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:45.759 website, which is integrity solutions dot com, you'll see all of our episodes 73 00:05:45.800 --> 00:05:49.319 as well under the resources section of the site. You'll find us on linkedin. 74 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:53.759 We're very active on Linkedin and we'll post a lot about our new episodes 75 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:57.639 as they come out every other week. On twitter, you'll find us at 76 00:05:57.759 --> 00:06:02.839 Um sell underscore integrity and you'll also find this on on facebook and you'll find 77 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:08.199 uh episode clips on our Youtube Channel. I love it. Well, thanks 78 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:10.720 for jumping on here, will and telling us a little bit about the show 79 00:06:11.160 --> 00:06:14.920 and for all the marketers listening to this right now, go ahead and just 80 00:06:14.959 --> 00:06:18.560 pause the episode real quick. There's probably a share button somewhere on your screen 81 00:06:18.639 --> 00:06:23.439 right now. Share it with someone on your sales team who could benefit from 82 00:06:23.439 --> 00:06:27.519 a new podcast, and I think mental selling is something that we as marketers 83 00:06:27.600 --> 00:06:30.959 can also tune in and learn something right that's how alignment happens, is when 84 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:33.319 you know about other roles in the organization, but also there's someone on your 85 00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:36.480 team who could benefit from this podcast, and so I just want to give 86 00:06:36.519 --> 00:06:41.279 this as a suggestion before we jump in. All right, well, thanks 87 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:44.079 so much for being here today, man. Thank you. Thanks, Benji. 88 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:53.600 Take care. You're listening to mental selling, the sales performance podcast, 89 00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:59.560 a show from integrity solutions. This is a podcast for passionate leaders in sales 90 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:02.800 and kind summer service who are driven by purpose, not just a paycheck, 91 00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:08.920 people who want to create broader and deeper connections with customers and their teams by 92 00:07:09.000 --> 00:07:14.360 building trust and mastering the critical mental and emotional sides of sales. You're about 93 00:07:14.399 --> 00:07:17.920 to hear a conversation from sales leaders and industry experts about what it takes to 94 00:07:18.079 --> 00:07:25.040 translate sales knowledge into sales performance. How to change the sales conversation by putting 95 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:30.959 the focus on building relationships and adding value, removing the blockers that keep salespeople 96 00:07:30.000 --> 00:07:36.519 from reaching their potential, creating an inspiring learning environment and culturing culture and ultimately 97 00:07:36.800 --> 00:07:43.079 increasing sales achievement and improving customer loyalty. Ready to rise up to the top 98 00:07:43.120 --> 00:07:46.800 of your game? Let's get right into the show. Welcome everyone to mental 99 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:50.439 selling. Thanks for joining us today. From wherever you are and whenever you 100 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:55.639 might be listening to this, I'm very excited about today's episode. Today's guest 101 00:07:55.839 --> 00:08:01.360 is Lisa mcloud. Lisa is a global expert on her is driven business and 102 00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:07.079 the best selling author of five books, including selling with noble purpose, how 103 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:09.959 to drive revenue and do work that makes you proud. She has worked with 104 00:08:11.000 --> 00:08:16.399 clients like Linkedin Support Works, Roche and salesforce, and is a regular contributor 105 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:20.199 to both the Harvard Business Review and in Fortune and Forbes. So, Lisa, 106 00:08:20.240 --> 00:08:24.040 welcome to mental selling. Thanks for being with us today. It is 107 00:08:24.040 --> 00:08:28.839 such a pleasure to be with you today and I love the title mental selling. 108 00:08:28.839 --> 00:08:31.879 Oh my gosh, I can't wait to dive in thank you. So 109 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:35.360 I first heard you speak at a sales and marketing conference about three and a 110 00:08:35.360 --> 00:08:41.639 half years ago now, and ever since we rebooted this podcast you've been a 111 00:08:41.639 --> 00:08:43.720 guest that I really have been eager to have on the show, because your 112 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:50.080 points of view about selling perhaps map closest to what this podcast is all about 113 00:08:50.120 --> 00:08:54.399 more than just about anyone I can think of. So let's get right into 114 00:08:54.440 --> 00:08:58.519 it by talking about purpose and in the context of selling, and you know, 115 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:03.360 in simple terms, how do you define it and why does it matter? 116 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:07.559 So first I'm going to tell you what it's not. Purpose has become 117 00:09:07.639 --> 00:09:11.919 part of the business vernacular. Ten years ago, if you ask someone what's 118 00:09:11.960 --> 00:09:15.000 the purpose of a sales team, they would have said, well, duck 119 00:09:15.519 --> 00:09:20.960 hit the target, bringing the revenue. But what we now know is that 120 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:26.679 when you have what we call a noble purpose, bigger than money, when 121 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:31.000 you're true north is improving life for customers, you wind up making more money. 122 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:35.399 And so one of the things that's happened. I'm delighted that you know 123 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:39.679 I wrote the original version of selling with noble purpose. You and I were 124 00:09:39.679 --> 00:09:43.759 talking about this in two thousand twelve and since then purpose has become part of 125 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:50.840 the business vernacular. But what's happened is words only mean what we think they 126 00:09:50.840 --> 00:09:54.799 mean, and a lot of times people think the purpose of a company one 127 00:09:54.080 --> 00:10:00.080 is to return to shareholders. You know that all freedman model. Oh, 128 00:10:00.320 --> 00:10:03.080 that's not the purpose of the company. The purpose of a company is to 129 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:09.399 improve life for customers. And people get a look confused about purpose and they 130 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:11.240 think, well, is it about a give back? Is it about all 131 00:10:11.240 --> 00:10:18.600 these E S G metrics? And the answer is no. Good companies give 132 00:10:18.679 --> 00:10:24.080 to their communities, good companies don't pollute the world. But the true purpose 133 00:10:24.159 --> 00:10:31.679 of a company is to improve life for customers, plain and simple. Your 134 00:10:31.840 --> 00:10:39.120 Noble salespers purpose is a clear and succinct statement about how you're making life better 135 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:43.960 for customers. End of story. So if a salesperson, I don't want 136 00:10:43.000 --> 00:10:46.759 to say if they don't buy into purpose, but if they can't put his 137 00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:52.519 or her finger on what their's is, specifically, what's the risk or potential 138 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:56.200 cost there? I mean does every does every salesperson need to feel, you 139 00:10:56.200 --> 00:11:00.159 know, if you're selling plumbing fixtures or life fixtures? Does every salesperson need 140 00:11:00.200 --> 00:11:03.720 to feel like they're making a you know, a deep difference in customers lives. 141 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:07.120 Well, I think it comes down to do we define deep difference? 142 00:11:07.399 --> 00:11:13.039 So you mentioned plumbing fixtures and light fixtures and I will tell you that those 143 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:16.759 you try and live your life without plumbing and lighting and you see how well 144 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:22.960 it goes. A lot of times people think you know because I use the 145 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:26.120 language noble purpose. They think, oh well, that's for the people curing 146 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:33.960 cancer or saving lives or teachers or whatever. Now, if you if what 147 00:11:33.039 --> 00:11:39.000 you are selling is being bought by customers, you're improving their lives. So 148 00:11:39.080 --> 00:11:43.679 what we suggest is you ask three questions. They're in selling with noble purpose, 149 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:46.159 and I'll give them to you now. We call the three discovery questions. 150 00:11:46.440 --> 00:11:50.240 As a seller, you want to be able to answer how do you 151 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:56.919 make a difference to customers? How do you do it differently than your competition? 152 00:11:56.519 --> 00:12:00.840 And on your best day, what do you love about your job? 153 00:12:01.919 --> 00:12:07.360 And if you can get clear on those, you will become a more compelling 154 00:12:07.960 --> 00:12:13.559 salesperson than that transactional salesperson who's just there to close the deal, and that 155 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:16.879 can also you know, we we talk a lot about on this podcast about 156 00:12:16.919 --> 00:12:20.200 how there are a lot of ups and downs in selling right. It's not 157 00:12:20.480 --> 00:12:22.799 a linear every day is the same. You have some real highs and you 158 00:12:22.840 --> 00:12:26.320 have some real lows and I think what you're talking about is a way to 159 00:12:26.360 --> 00:12:33.279 sustain people through some of those inevitable ebbs and flows. So related question, 160 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:37.720 I think. But so we all read today about their huge amounts of turnover 161 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:41.919 in the labor market and resignations and people changing jobs, etcetera. Why do 162 00:12:41.919 --> 00:12:48.399 you think salespeople today leave their jobs? So there's two answers. They'll tell 163 00:12:48.440 --> 00:12:54.639 you they're leaving their job for more money. What prompted them to be open 164 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:58.639 to looking was they didn't feel an emotional connection to their work. Now, 165 00:12:58.679 --> 00:13:03.759 if you're out there and you're working for a toxic boss in a terrible company 166 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:07.399 and you're being underpaid, like let's get you need to leave. You got 167 00:13:07.399 --> 00:13:13.120 options. You do not need to do this. But what we find people 168 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:18.759 are complex and we have lots of motivations and there's nothing wrong with being money 169 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.159 motivated. When I talk about noble purpose, people think, Oh, you 170 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:26.840 don't care about money. I care deeply about money. I have a former 171 00:13:26.919 --> 00:13:35.519 review sales and so the money matters, the money without the meaning. If 172 00:13:35.559 --> 00:13:39.039 you're just out there making money and you don't feel like your work makes a 173 00:13:39.080 --> 00:13:45.240 difference, your life is going to become very transactional, and so what we 174 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:50.600 find is they both matter. What sales people want is they want to be 175 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:54.600 able to do both. They want to be able to make money and to 176 00:13:54.759 --> 00:13:58.200 know that my work counts for something. You know, I'm going to go 177 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:01.919 back to plumbing fixtures. We had a concrete company. It's one of our 178 00:14:03.039 --> 00:14:05.879 most successful clients. Again, you might not think concrete is very sexy, 179 00:14:05.960 --> 00:14:09.080 you might not think it matters, but try living your life without concrete. 180 00:14:09.519 --> 00:14:15.759 You can't. It holds up half the world legitimately, and so what you 181 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:20.519 want is you just want to have a sightline to how your work matters, 182 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:22.480 because you see human beings. Once we get beyond food and shelter, we 183 00:14:22.519 --> 00:14:30.240 have two fundamental needs, belonging and significance. Belonging is I'm part of something 184 00:14:30.240 --> 00:14:35.759 bigger than myself, and significance is my individual contribution matters, and we all 185 00:14:35.799 --> 00:14:41.360 need that in our jobs. Yeah, absolutely, that's universal. I've read 186 00:14:41.639 --> 00:14:43.679 part of your book which is one of the more interesting parts to me because 187 00:14:43.679 --> 00:14:48.480 it's a lot of what we talk about integrity solutions, but you talk about. 188 00:14:48.519 --> 00:14:52.840 You discuss the nobility of the sales profession and how it's so often, 189 00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.600 we all know it's so often misperceived. As you know, people's need jerk 190 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:01.440 reaction to selling is that they're being tricked or coerced into something. How does 191 00:15:01.639 --> 00:15:07.679 purpose affect a salesperson's motivation to succeed? How does their view of what selling 192 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.240 is as a profession motivate them? You talk about, you know, the 193 00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:15.960 economics of self interest or or not sustainable. Son, can you talk about 194 00:15:15.960 --> 00:15:18.480 that, just sort of that view of of the sales profession and why that 195 00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:22.080 matters? Well, I'M gonna start with a story because I remember a million 196 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:26.919 years ago I was just graduating from college and I was going to a party 197 00:15:26.960 --> 00:15:31.919 at my then boyfriend, later became my husband, but at his boss's house. 198 00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:35.159 So He's a couple of years older than me, so he was already 199 00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:39.480 a grown up, you know, had a grown up job and Um, 200 00:15:39.720 --> 00:15:43.840 I go to this party at his boss's house. So I'm like really nervous. 201 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:48.600 You know, I'm the youngest one there going to this party and I'm 202 00:15:48.600 --> 00:15:52.600 a college senior. What is everybody asked, a college senior. So what 203 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:56.200 are you gonna do have you found a job? The week before I go 204 00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:58.159 to this party, I get my dream job. I'm going to be a 205 00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:02.519 sales rep for procter and gamble and I'm so excited I can't stand it. 206 00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:06.240 I'm super excited about the job and I'm also super excited that I'm gonna be 207 00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:10.480 able to say at this party that I had this job. So the boss's 208 00:16:10.519 --> 00:16:12.039 wife comes up to me. Oh, hello, dear. She's like what 209 00:16:12.120 --> 00:16:15.279 I call a fancy lady. You know where? It's really Nice House. 210 00:16:15.720 --> 00:16:19.320 She's like Soa dear, you know, I hear you're graduating from college. 211 00:16:19.799 --> 00:16:22.960 What are you going to be doing? And I say well, I'm going 212 00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:26.759 to be a sales rep for proger and gamble. I'm so excited and she 213 00:16:26.840 --> 00:16:32.000 goes, Oh sales, oh my, I don't know if I could ever 214 00:16:32.120 --> 00:16:38.799 do that. And I am so naive and excited about my job that I 215 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:42.200 do not understand when she is saying to me. When she says I don't 216 00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:45.360 think I could never do that, I think she's saying it like you'd say 217 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:49.960 to like a fighter pilot or a brain surgeon. Wow, I don't know 218 00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:53.200 if I could ever do that. I'm like yeah, it's pretty Badass and 219 00:16:53.240 --> 00:16:59.399 then, yeah, that's what I'm doing. What I did not understand in 220 00:16:59.480 --> 00:17:04.319 that meant was what she meant was it's Leazy, is icky and I could 221 00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:10.839 never lower myself to do that, Miss Fancy Lady. But what I've come 222 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:15.519 to realize is sales is one of the only professions that we allow it to 223 00:17:15.559 --> 00:17:18.799 be defined by the people who do it badly. It's a great point. 224 00:17:19.160 --> 00:17:23.759 We all know there's terrible ministers, there's terrible teachers, they're terrible doctors. 225 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:30.160 Every profession has a share of terrible people, and what the data tells us 226 00:17:30.119 --> 00:17:36.359 is those pushy, aggressive people who try to talk people into things they don't 227 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:41.160 want to buy. They don't need manipulative people. They're not the high performers 228 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:45.519 by any stretch of the imagination. So there's two things I want people to 229 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:49.319 take away from this. Number One, the data is fundamentally clear. The 230 00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:56.000 top sales people are the people who factually and earnestly want to improve life for 231 00:17:56.039 --> 00:18:00.200 their customers. That's who we need to allow to define our profession. And 232 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:04.400 the other thing that I want people to take in is you don't get to 233 00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:12.279 be in commerce or in a capitalistic society and have a disdain for the very 234 00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:17.200 thing that makes the whole engine run. So like this disdain that people have 235 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:22.839 for sales is insane, because nobody wants to quit buying things that are not 236 00:18:22.880 --> 00:18:30.599 talking about excessive consumerism, but no one wants to run their business without computers 237 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:37.880 or without software. And so the idea that somehow the people selling all the 238 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:41.759 things that make our lives and businesses better are itchy, it's just crazy. 239 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:45.200 So it says. Those are the two things I really want people to take 240 00:18:45.240 --> 00:18:48.119 away. The people who are the best in our profession are actually the people 241 00:18:48.119 --> 00:18:53.799 who truly care about their customers and this whole economy. We got to go 242 00:18:53.839 --> 00:19:00.920 in kines of people buying and selling things that people act really need. So, 243 00:19:00.000 --> 00:19:03.359 like, let go of that disdain for this profession. Do you think 244 00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:07.279 a lot of sales people are are held back by that, though, by 245 00:19:07.319 --> 00:19:11.799 that that view maybe, either, whether it's consciously or subconsciously, not the 246 00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:15.839 best ones, because the best ones have come, as you and I both 247 00:19:15.880 --> 00:19:22.319 have, around to this deep understanding. What I would like to put out 248 00:19:22.440 --> 00:19:29.119 to all the younger salespeople, the less tinured salespeople, the people struggling with 249 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:33.160 it and to all the parents whose child just tells them they're going into sales 250 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:42.200 is sales is a noble profession. It makes the economy hum and even if 251 00:19:42.240 --> 00:19:45.720 you're not selling, you know, even if you get out of the world 252 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:51.759 of of you know capitalism, somebody has to go sell all that x ray 253 00:19:51.759 --> 00:19:56.599 equipment. Somebody has to sell those teachers there, you know, their materials 254 00:19:56.640 --> 00:20:03.599 and their supplies and selling, and it's hard. Is Not about talking people 255 00:20:03.759 --> 00:20:08.640 into something they don't want. That's terrible. Selling at its heart is about 256 00:20:08.759 --> 00:20:15.039 finding the people who can benefit from what you have and making it easy for 257 00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:18.559 them. If you if you are selling something and people are paying money for 258 00:20:18.680 --> 00:20:22.440 it, you have a noble purpose because they wouldn't be buying it if it 259 00:20:22.559 --> 00:20:29.480 wasn't helping them. What you need to do is lean into how again, 260 00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:32.960 those three questions. How do I make a difference? That is what I 261 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:36.079 sell. Make a difference. How do we do it differently? And on 262 00:20:36.119 --> 00:20:37.880 my best day, what do I love about my job, and usually what 263 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:42.359 you love, is those magic moments when the customer says this is exactly what 264 00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:47.799 I needed. Now, related to that and another thing that can happen, 265 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:52.799 though, with some salespeople it's one thing to sort of have a positive view 266 00:20:52.839 --> 00:20:57.400 of the of selling itself as the profession, but what about if their view 267 00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:02.960 of what they're selling, the product and services can their viewpoint about those and 268 00:21:03.000 --> 00:21:07.200 sort of their their confidence and real belief in those, cannot have the same 269 00:21:07.240 --> 00:21:11.119 effect, positively or negatively? It absolutely does, and so I'll tell you 270 00:21:12.160 --> 00:21:18.359 two things on this. If you're not feeling excited about what you're selling, 271 00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.960 the first thing you need to do before you give it up. The first 272 00:21:22.960 --> 00:21:26.039 thing you need to do is go back and find some people that bought from 273 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:32.480 you and, if you're new, dig into your experience salespeople and find out 274 00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:38.079 how did this make a difference? And so, like our concrete company, 275 00:21:38.279 --> 00:21:45.680 went back and found that their delivery systems, the strength of their concrete, 276 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:51.559 the working with their team made the whole project thing. So go back and 277 00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:55.960 find out how does this make a difference? Don't minimize it. If you're 278 00:21:55.960 --> 00:21:59.200 selling accounting systems, if you're selling software, again, you don't have to 279 00:21:59.200 --> 00:22:02.519 be changing the all, just helping people in some way. So go back 280 00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:07.759 and find out how it made a difference. If you're selling something that's commoditized, 281 00:22:07.400 --> 00:22:14.519 really dig into how did my company's delivery of this make a difference, 282 00:22:14.519 --> 00:22:18.640 because what you're looking for is that feeling of significance, that this actually mattered. 283 00:22:19.119 --> 00:22:22.720 If you can't find it and what you're selling. This is the second 284 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:26.480 point, and what you're selling is truly crap, you need to leave because 285 00:22:26.960 --> 00:22:32.759 because you're not gonna be that good at it. But again that those instances 286 00:22:32.839 --> 00:22:37.720 are so rare. I think what happens is we just get so used to 287 00:22:37.759 --> 00:22:42.240 what we're selling that we don't lean into it and we tend to ask questions 288 00:22:42.279 --> 00:22:47.319 of our customers like where you satisfied? Yes, that's not the question that 289 00:22:47.400 --> 00:22:52.240 you want to ask. You want to ask what impact did it have on 290 00:22:52.359 --> 00:22:56.000 you? Because there's been this talk, and you know this, in the 291 00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:03.079 last years about customers central city. Selling with noble purpose takes customer centricity one 292 00:23:03.079 --> 00:23:11.160 step further. Customer centricity is often about pleasing customers. Selling with noble purpose 293 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:15.720 is about improving customers, and so anybody out there who's got kids know there's 294 00:23:15.839 --> 00:23:21.119 if you're a parent, there's a big difference between pleasing your children and improving 295 00:23:21.160 --> 00:23:25.319 your children. That's a good analogy. Yes, that's very true. The 296 00:23:25.359 --> 00:23:30.279 same thing as a teacher and so what you're trying to do is you are 297 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:36.319 really trying to have an impact on your customer and that's what you're always looking 298 00:23:36.359 --> 00:23:38.559 for. So, instead of going back and saying are you happy? That's 299 00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:42.240 fine and that's a baseline question. But if I were to say, were 300 00:23:42.240 --> 00:23:45.319 you happy with our concrete? Were you happy with our software? Yeah, 301 00:23:45.359 --> 00:23:51.400 what's good at work? Yeah, saying you're satisfied is sort of like meeting 302 00:23:51.440 --> 00:23:53.759 the least common denominator. That's right. You're not going to get a fire 303 00:23:53.799 --> 00:23:59.920 in your belly because customers are telling you or satisfying yeah. And you also 304 00:24:00.039 --> 00:24:03.480 touched on something else, which is especially for people that are selling, and, 305 00:24:03.599 --> 00:24:07.680 let's be honest, most companies do things that are at least relatively commoditized, 306 00:24:07.359 --> 00:24:11.000 is, go beyond the product and talk about why they bought from you, 307 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:17.440 because they're also buying the experience. The experience, entire customer experience, 308 00:24:17.480 --> 00:24:19.759 can be what the difference is and what your impact is. The service, 309 00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:23.759 the confidence. We had a big piece of business that we just want and 310 00:24:23.799 --> 00:24:29.319 we went back and we wanted against quite a formidable, much larger company than 311 00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:33.680 us, and we went back and said, why did you choose us, 312 00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:37.960 and they said, we could tell that you cared about us more. Yeah, 313 00:24:37.960 --> 00:24:41.039 that that shouldn't be underestimated. Okay, well, good, because we 314 00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:44.960 did. It's a it's a huge factor. That just gets back to your 315 00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:48.799 brand and your brand promise. Yeah, and that's that's all about how you 316 00:24:48.839 --> 00:24:51.279 make customers feel. So now that's a really good point. Well, and 317 00:24:51.319 --> 00:24:52.880 you bring up I want to pause on one thing. You bring up brand 318 00:24:52.880 --> 00:24:57.160 promise. When you think about people listening to this. If your company is 319 00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:02.200 doing this work at the top and your rand promise and the way they're communicating 320 00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:04.799 to you, that's great. You have a competitive advantage. But if they're 321 00:25:04.799 --> 00:25:11.119 not, you can do this. We do this. All this rest one 322 00:25:11.720 --> 00:25:18.480 D in control of the individual sales person, of the individual sales manager around. 323 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:22.119 We are not just going to focus on closing, we're going to focus 324 00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:27.519 on improving life for customers, and our closed rate is a measure of how 325 00:25:27.559 --> 00:25:32.119 well we are doing that. That's a really good point. You want this 326 00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:37.480 to be happening systemically and organizationally, but if it's not, it's still is. 327 00:25:37.039 --> 00:25:41.119 Like you just said, it's up to the individual and they can deliver 328 00:25:41.200 --> 00:25:44.119 on that themselves. Right. Well, back to the title. Of this 329 00:25:44.200 --> 00:25:49.000 podcast. Mental selling is your if your true north is hit my number, 330 00:25:49.039 --> 00:25:52.160 hit my number, hit my number, you are going to be a frantic, 331 00:25:52.680 --> 00:25:57.559 untethered, up and down person. But if your true north is in 332 00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:03.160 your mind, how am I going to improve life for customers? Number One, 333 00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:04.960 the data tells us you will be more compelling, you will be more 334 00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:08.960 engaging, your win weight will go up and you will ultimately close more deals. 335 00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:12.599 But the other thing is you'll be more grounded because, no matter what 336 00:26:12.720 --> 00:26:18.000 the circumstances, I can always improve life for customers. Yes, that's that's 337 00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:22.319 a really good point. And so building on that, you know, we're 338 00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:26.160 talking about sales people developing their own their true north and their view of selling 339 00:26:26.200 --> 00:26:30.200 as a profession and their belief, you know, core belief in the products 340 00:26:30.200 --> 00:26:34.079 that they're selling. Do you think can customers feel it either way if somebody 341 00:26:34.119 --> 00:26:38.079 has that or no, meaning that? Can a sales rep sort of fake 342 00:26:38.160 --> 00:26:41.519 it or hide it or bury it? You know, so how do how 343 00:26:41.519 --> 00:26:47.000 do customers tell whether somebody has that or not? Doesn't matter. So it's 344 00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.559 happening on a conscious level and an unconscious level, depending on the customers. 345 00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:56.279 And so I would like, in this too, dating it's been a million 346 00:26:56.359 --> 00:27:00.240 years since I dated, but I've watched shows about dating. You can tell 347 00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:07.400 if someone is genuinely interested in you and you don't go through a little mental 348 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:11.640 checklist where you go, oh, they leaned in, oh they made eye 349 00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:15.319 contact. Oh, that question was a little more insightful. You're not doing 350 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.200 that. When you said can customers feel it? They absolutely can feel it. 351 00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:23.519 And one of the things that's happened in this post pandemic world, or 352 00:27:23.559 --> 00:27:29.119 whether we're still in or not, but whatever, is if you've ever been 353 00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:36.039 through a traumatic experience, death of a parent, health scare, a divorce, 354 00:27:36.319 --> 00:27:41.720 a bankruptcy, something that really stops you in your tracks, you have 355 00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:47.119 a deep conversation with yourself. Who Am I? Why am I here? 356 00:27:47.720 --> 00:27:51.880 How am I spending my precious time on this earth? So what's happened over 357 00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:56.920 the last two years is everyone's done that, everyone's done that at the same 358 00:27:56.960 --> 00:28:02.079 time, and what that does. This is super important for settlers, because 359 00:28:02.119 --> 00:28:07.079 what that does is it gives you a heightened awareness of how you are spending 360 00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:11.720 your time, and you only want to spend time with people that you enjoy, 361 00:28:12.160 --> 00:28:15.920 that care about you, that you care about and so what you have 362 00:28:17.000 --> 00:28:25.960 to understand is that customers are now reading your intent and it's super important and 363 00:28:26.000 --> 00:28:30.359 we can't put the toothpaste back in the tube. So what a friend of 364 00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:33.839 mine, WHO's the vice president hr for a large bank, told me, 365 00:28:33.920 --> 00:28:36.960 because she has lots of salespeople call on her to sell, are all kinds 366 00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:41.359 of things. And she said what was annoying in person, which is the 367 00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:47.279 salesperson that goes on and on about themselves, she said, is intolerable on 368 00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:55.119 a zoom. So nobody has is terrible. No customer has time for you 369 00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:57.680 to go down your laundry list of features and all this. They're gonna they 370 00:28:57.680 --> 00:29:02.279 want you to get to it, but the it that they want you to 371 00:29:02.319 --> 00:29:04.880 get to is them. Yeah, they don't want to see your slide with 372 00:29:04.920 --> 00:29:08.519 all your customer logos or talk about how many offices you have in the world, 373 00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:11.480 that sort of thing. You Wow, wow, wow, wow, 374 00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:17.200 wow. They don't care. Yeah, and it's really good news for sellers 375 00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:23.039 who want to lean into an important word here is customer impact. Not just 376 00:29:23.119 --> 00:29:27.839 lean into customers generically, but lean into customer impact, and that's what selling 377 00:29:27.880 --> 00:29:34.440 with noble purpose is all about, is improving life for customers in both quantifiable 378 00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:40.519 ways, but also qualitative ways. The act of doing business with you should 379 00:29:40.599 --> 00:29:44.440 be fun. Yeah, yeah, it should be. So. When I 380 00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:48.240 first read your book, which was over three years ago because I got a 381 00:29:48.240 --> 00:29:51.480 copy of it at the conference that you spoke at, and then I reread 382 00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:55.160 a lot of it ahead of our discussion today, one of the things you 383 00:29:55.160 --> 00:30:00.599 talk about is you divide sales people into two camps. There's transactional sellers and 384 00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:03.880 then noble purpose sellers. Can you talk a bit about each and with the 385 00:30:03.920 --> 00:30:08.839 differences and and what you think customers want more most from a salesperson in that 386 00:30:08.960 --> 00:30:14.960 context? So, as I described this, I invite folks to think about 387 00:30:15.160 --> 00:30:19.400 when they've been at their best and what we saw. We started a number 388 00:30:19.440 --> 00:30:25.160 of sales teams and that's the what the research bore out was that there were 389 00:30:25.240 --> 00:30:29.720 definitely there were actually three camps of sellers. There were these noble purpose sellers, 390 00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:33.839 there were good performing transactional sellers and then there were terrible people that did 391 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:36.599 not know what they were doing. So we don't need to talk about those. 392 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:41.480 But the transactional sellers. Not a bad person, just trying to make 393 00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:45.160 a living and do a good job. But I'll give you a couple of 394 00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:49.079 compare and contrast. So a noble purpose seller starts to call thinking how can 395 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:53.319 I make a difference to this customer? A transactional seller starts to call thinking 396 00:30:53.519 --> 00:30:57.640 how can I close this deal? Questioning shows up in a bunch of different 397 00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:03.680 ways discovery. A noble purpose seller thinks I want to understand what this customer 398 00:31:03.759 --> 00:31:10.160 is trying to accomplish within the scope of their business. A transactional seller thinks 399 00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:15.640 I need to understand the purchase requirements. When you go into presenting, a 400 00:31:15.640 --> 00:31:22.599 noble purpose seller thinks I need to connect the dots and show the customer how 401 00:31:22.680 --> 00:31:26.799 what I have can help them achieve their goals. A transactional seller thinks I 402 00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:32.640 need to show the customer how my product works. Transactional sellers make sales, 403 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:37.319 but they leave it to the customer to connect all those dots. And so 404 00:31:37.359 --> 00:31:44.039 what we found was those noble purpose sellers one they produced much more revenue, 405 00:31:44.079 --> 00:31:48.119 their win rate was higher. But the other thing is they close bigger deals 406 00:31:48.119 --> 00:31:52.720 and they close stickier deals. And it's because, instead of asking about purchase 407 00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:59.119 requirements, they ask about customer strategic goals. Instead of talking about product features, 408 00:31:59.400 --> 00:32:05.359 they talk about customers success and how the customers life and business will be 409 00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:12.039 better. And so there was a distinct difference in orientation, but where it 410 00:32:12.119 --> 00:32:16.160 came from back to mental it came from a mindset of why am I here, 411 00:32:16.440 --> 00:32:21.000 and those transactional sellers again good people trying to do a job make a 412 00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:24.960 living. I am here to close business and those noble purpose sellers I am 413 00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:30.720 here to improve life for customers, and everything flowed out from that. That's 414 00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:34.599 really good. That's a that's such an important sort of again, way to 415 00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:39.160 keep people centered, centered. That's a really good phrasing in every customer conversation 416 00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:43.319 that they're having. I don't know if this is more like a story I 417 00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:45.200 wanted to share to get your reaction to more than a question, but something 418 00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:49.799 that resonated for me in the book. I went through it and there was 419 00:32:49.839 --> 00:32:52.920 a chapter titled Why profit is not a purpose and it immediately took me back 420 00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:57.519 to earlier in my career, quite a while ago. I had a job 421 00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:00.279 years ago, where I worked for the CEO, who was a great guy. 422 00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:02.359 He had been with the company for many years. He had been the 423 00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:07.880 CEO for out of a nine ten years, highly respected, very well liked 424 00:33:07.759 --> 00:33:13.160 he was a catalyst for the company's positive culture and on very good terms. 425 00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:15.240 He just had found something else he wanted to do and he was leaving the 426 00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:20.359 company. And when he left, and the company was owned by a parent 427 00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:23.759 company, when he left, on again on good terms, the interim CEO 428 00:33:23.920 --> 00:33:29.799 came in to an all company meeting and stood up in front of the room 429 00:33:29.839 --> 00:33:35.400 and very forcefully opened the meeting by saying, let me be really I still 430 00:33:35.599 --> 00:33:38.000 remember standing there watching this. Let me be really clear. Your mission, 431 00:33:38.400 --> 00:33:43.000 looking around to everybody in the room, your mission is to deliver profit to 432 00:33:43.440 --> 00:33:50.279 parent company X. and that juxtaposition of what people's experience had been in the 433 00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:54.480 company from a leadership standpoint, you could see in the moment, you could 434 00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:59.400 see the energy and feel it drain from the room and I remember looking around 435 00:33:59.400 --> 00:34:04.079 and literally looking at people's faces and thinking she's going to leave, he's going 436 00:34:04.119 --> 00:34:07.440 to leave, she's out of here. And in the months ahead, and 437 00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:09.960 many of them were, they left. And so what what's your reaction to 438 00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:13.920 that? When when companies sort of drive down that like we're here to make 439 00:34:13.960 --> 00:34:17.199 profit as your as your purpose, trying to make that their purpose. So 440 00:34:17.320 --> 00:34:22.039 here's what I would say. Here's what that CEO said, and it might 441 00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:25.599 have been a very well intended person that has a lot of pressure from their 442 00:34:25.639 --> 00:34:30.320 board, from whoever. So I'm not making a moral judgment here. But 443 00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:35.400 when a leader says your purpose is to make a profit, your purpose is 444 00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:42.039 to hit the target, what the person heres is you are a cog in 445 00:34:42.119 --> 00:34:50.960 a money machine. You are a meaningless cog in a money machine that exists 446 00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:58.320 for other people, not for you. And so when leaders say that they 447 00:34:58.360 --> 00:35:05.440 are creating a ty transactional relationship with their employees, a transactional relationship with your 448 00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:09.960 employees creates a transactional relationship with your customers. That's a great way to put 449 00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:15.599 it and you've got to really understand that if you want customer loyalty, if 450 00:35:15.639 --> 00:35:22.960 you want to be differentiated in the marketplace, if you want your customers to 451 00:35:22.639 --> 00:35:27.840 stick with you and not put it up for bid every year, that starts 452 00:35:28.000 --> 00:35:34.360 with the conversation that you're having with your employees. And so but leaders will 453 00:35:34.519 --> 00:35:38.840 say, but my board, how I ended up working with boards and C 454 00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:43.320 E O s was because I started working with salespeople and they all said, 455 00:35:43.559 --> 00:35:45.599 but my manager, my manager, she's here, she says it's all about 456 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:47.599 the money. So I started working with sales managers. They go but the 457 00:35:47.639 --> 00:35:53.119 chief revenue officers chief Revezer. So I started laddering this back up. And 458 00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:59.000 so what I will tell you is, as a leader, you are required 459 00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:06.119 to hit your number. Your numbers are a lagging indicator. Your numbers are 460 00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:13.000 the result of the mindset and behavior of your employees. So if you are 461 00:36:13.800 --> 00:36:15.320 leading with you gotta hit the number. You've got to hit the number. 462 00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:20.679 You are just like a teacher that is sitting in the classroom saying you've got 463 00:36:20.679 --> 00:36:22.800 to improve the test course. You've got to improve the test course. You've 464 00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:24.920 got to improve the test course, or a coach that's telling a runner you've 465 00:36:24.920 --> 00:36:29.079 got to improve your time. You've got to improve your time. You you 466 00:36:29.199 --> 00:36:36.639 can't coach to an outcome. You have to coach and create culture around a 467 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:42.400 behavior and a mindset. And so, if I am a leader, what 468 00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:46.320 I want to be saying is here's how we improve life for customers, here's 469 00:36:46.360 --> 00:36:50.679 the story of our company, because it's going to be a lot more emotionally 470 00:36:50.679 --> 00:36:54.320 engaging. Here's some examples of customers. And, oh by the way, 471 00:36:54.480 --> 00:36:59.119 the numbers are a measure of that. I think that's a really good point. 472 00:36:59.119 --> 00:37:02.119 I've always believe that revenue is a lagging indicator for so much that's going 473 00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:06.719 on. Of course it is in sales and your the teaching analogy is good 474 00:37:06.760 --> 00:37:08.840 because my wife is a teacher and it's the same sort of thing that that 475 00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:14.639 sort of state tests that students have to go through. Those are a lacking 476 00:37:14.679 --> 00:37:17.639 indicator of what's been going on for the previous six nine months. Right, 477 00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:22.920 right. And so imagine the difference, because we've all been in school, 478 00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:27.760 even if we don't have kids. Imagine the difference between a teacher who is 479 00:37:27.840 --> 00:37:30.519 told by his or her administration your goal is sat the test scores, your 480 00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:34.920 goal to say at the test course, versus a teacher, or let's call 481 00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:39.440 it a history teacher, who's been told you are creating future citizens. We 482 00:37:39.480 --> 00:37:46.159 want well informed citizens who understand the history of our country, who can think 483 00:37:46.320 --> 00:37:50.679 for themselves. That's your goal. The test scores will show us if we 484 00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:54.760 got there, but your true north is a well informed citizen. Rate whose 485 00:37:54.760 --> 00:38:00.159 class would you rather be in? Oh, absolutely, yeah, and that 486 00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:04.000 and that's what leaders have to understand. In selling the noble purpose, we 487 00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:07.679 use an example of monster dot com and this is all public record, the 488 00:38:07.719 --> 00:38:12.840 exact same thing happened there that happened to you. They had leaders who said 489 00:38:13.199 --> 00:38:15.800 we're going to help people find better jobs. Woo, we have a purpose, 490 00:38:16.280 --> 00:38:20.920 and they shifted to a leadership that said we're going to be about the 491 00:38:21.000 --> 00:38:24.239 numbers. And what happened was, for the first six months they had better 492 00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:28.519 numbers. Well, what happened in a couple of years that followed? It 493 00:38:28.679 --> 00:38:31.840 basically became irrelevant. Irrelevant, they were out innovated by Linkedin. And so 494 00:38:31.880 --> 00:38:36.440 if you're there and you're that leader saying your purpose is to hit the number, 495 00:38:37.000 --> 00:38:38.880 you might as well put a sign on the door that says innovation dies 496 00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:44.320 here. Yeah, because it also it emphasizes that short term, the short 497 00:38:44.440 --> 00:38:47.360 term, short term thinking. This week, this month and nobody. You 498 00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:51.079 compare two teams. One team is saying how can we make a difference to 499 00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:53.039 customers? The other team is saying how can we hit our quarterly targets? 500 00:38:53.280 --> 00:38:57.760 That first team is going to be the more innovative team, pivoting a bit. 501 00:38:57.800 --> 00:39:00.119 One of the and you touched on this a little bit before, when 502 00:39:00.119 --> 00:39:02.880 you're talking about the customer experience when they're on zoom calls. What do you 503 00:39:04.079 --> 00:39:07.519 in your opinion? What's the impact been of for most sales people being fully 504 00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:12.119 remote the past couple of years? And it could because in some cases that 505 00:39:12.239 --> 00:39:15.280 wasn't much of a change for some people, but in a lot of industries, 506 00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:20.639 a lot of roles, it was a drastic shift. That happened overnight. 507 00:39:20.760 --> 00:39:22.960 What's the impact been of that? So a couple of things. First 508 00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:27.639 thing is a lot of extroverted sales people realized they didn't actually have that many 509 00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:34.000 friends. Their lives have been filled up with going out with customers, entertating 510 00:39:34.039 --> 00:39:37.880 customers, being the customers offices. So there was a little bit of a 511 00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:44.119 reckoning on that. I've just seen some new data about salesperson loneliness and I'm 512 00:39:44.119 --> 00:39:47.840 going to do a piece on this and it basically says women salespeople became lonely, 513 00:39:47.880 --> 00:39:52.440 they became more awkward and they started overspending on customers just to get a 514 00:39:52.519 --> 00:40:00.199 social connection. But what's happened now? A lot of people who were in 515 00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:04.880 person salespeople have gone remote, and one of the things that you've got to 516 00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:09.000 understand is for a lot of industries it's going to stay that way and it's 517 00:40:09.039 --> 00:40:15.440 not the seller's choice. It's the customer's choice. Yeah, the example we 518 00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:19.280 talked a lot about theirs and like medical device and pharmaceuticals, right. They 519 00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:22.679 those sales people were used to that drop in culture of just showing up at 520 00:40:22.679 --> 00:40:27.119 the doctor's offices. And not only did that end on a dime two years 521 00:40:27.159 --> 00:40:30.239 ago, but it's not coming back. No, I was in the doctor's 522 00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:32.400 office the other day and I looked around. I was like where are all 523 00:40:32.480 --> 00:40:36.760 this getting good looking people? All right, the farmer reps are near anymore. 524 00:40:37.000 --> 00:40:39.800 Oh, this is just all the patients, all the normal people. 525 00:40:40.199 --> 00:40:46.199 But one of the things that you have to understand as a seller, if 526 00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:51.480 you were in this virtual environment, is, well, a couple of things. 527 00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:55.840 Number one, of your customer's journey has been online. So they and 528 00:40:55.920 --> 00:41:00.000 it's without you, and that's not a bad thing. They have looked at 529 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:04.280 your product, they've looked at you. In most cases they've looked at everything 530 00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:09.559 in advance, and so when they've decided to give you their time, Litmus 531 00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:13.920 test this. But in most cases they're already up to feed on your company 532 00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:19.239 and when they're giving you their time it's really precious. And the good news 533 00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:23.039 is that they're giving you their time. They're probably really serious. So if 534 00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:28.199 you're getting on a zoom call with somebody, this is a good prospect. 535 00:41:28.239 --> 00:41:31.360 You need to understand that. But the other thing that you have to understand. 536 00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:37.119 Just as they have done their homework, you better do yours. And 537 00:41:37.199 --> 00:41:40.800 by your homework what I mean. There is no excuse. I don't care 538 00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:45.360 what you sell, especially if you're B two B. You need to know 539 00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:51.119 what this company's goals are, what are they trying to accomplish over the next 540 00:41:51.159 --> 00:41:54.599 year? Who is their senior leadership team? Who is this person you're calling 541 00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:58.840 on? What is their role? You should know all that before you jump 542 00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:00.159 on the call. YEA, what if they've been saying in the news? 543 00:42:00.280 --> 00:42:04.840 That sort of thing right? There's no excuses. You need to know all 544 00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:07.679 that. And so if you are booking back to back to back calls with 545 00:42:07.760 --> 00:42:12.039 no time in between, you're doing yourself and your customers a disservice. If 546 00:42:12.079 --> 00:42:16.159 you do nothing else, cut your calls from thirty minutes to twenty five or 547 00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:22.199 an hour to forty five and give yourself that time. And and then the 548 00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:30.440 other thing that you need to understand about this zoom situation is your intent became 549 00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:34.880 more apparent. And here's why. You walk into somebody's office, we're gonna 550 00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:37.280 shake hands and you want some coffee. I'm gonna see some pictures of their 551 00:42:37.360 --> 00:42:42.960 kids or whatever. All those social niceties that we just sort of do automatically, 552 00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:47.639 they're wiped out undo. They're absolutely wiped out. And so what happens 553 00:42:47.719 --> 00:42:51.400 is if you're just like, how much money have you got? When can 554 00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:55.480 I close this deal, that's gonna show up really or right. It's amplified. 555 00:42:55.559 --> 00:43:00.920 Right. Yeah, and so one thing that we sellers to do is, 556 00:43:01.480 --> 00:43:06.519 if you're in a first call or an early call, make sure you've 557 00:43:06.559 --> 00:43:10.719 done your homework and make sure you have some questions to ask that customer. 558 00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:16.079 And you all teach this. That have to do with their strategic intent you 559 00:43:16.119 --> 00:43:19.840 know, I see you all are going into three new markets that year. 560 00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:22.639 How's that going to affect you in your room? Like you have got to 561 00:43:22.719 --> 00:43:29.840 start that call off where the focus is on the customer, because a lot 562 00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:32.360 of customers are coming to the call going so what do you got? They'll 563 00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:37.840 they'll prompt you to a show and tell just because they don't know what else 564 00:43:37.880 --> 00:43:40.360 to do. So you've got to be really planful so that you can make 565 00:43:40.440 --> 00:43:45.840 that call about them instead of just about you, and that that homework has 566 00:43:45.880 --> 00:43:49.960 to go beyond asking the sort of what I think is cliche that like what's 567 00:43:50.039 --> 00:43:52.880 keeping you up at night questions. You should already know that, right. 568 00:43:52.920 --> 00:43:58.039 I was gonna say one of the previous episodes of this podcast I was talking 569 00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:00.599 to somebody and he talked about you have to instead come into those conversations saying 570 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:05.360 here's three things that should be keeping up at night, because I know that's 571 00:44:05.360 --> 00:44:08.039 what other people in your role or your industry are doing. and which which 572 00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:12.119 of these resonates with you sort of thing, and go that way. It's 573 00:44:12.239 --> 00:44:15.400 you have to flip it around. If I could go back in my own 574 00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:20.280 early career and one thing we've done for a lot of clients is I wish 575 00:44:20.320 --> 00:44:25.400 I had better business intelligence, and what I mean by that is you should 576 00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:30.440 know if you've got three typical buyers, if your buyers are CMO, head 577 00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:37.119 of HR sales, enablement strategy, whoever your buvirus, you should know the 578 00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:42.480 compelling hot issues for a person typically in that role. Yeah, like you 579 00:44:42.519 --> 00:44:45.800 should know that so that you can say you know, you and I have 580 00:44:45.960 --> 00:44:51.920 probably both dealt with chief revenue officers. So challenge for chief revenue officers now 581 00:44:52.119 --> 00:44:58.920 is the economy's opened up very high targets that they have to get and they 582 00:44:58.920 --> 00:45:01.159 have to keep their people in acually engaged in not quitting. So, like 583 00:45:01.320 --> 00:45:06.280 I better be really fluid and how to do both of those things before I 584 00:45:06.360 --> 00:45:10.119 jump on a call. Yeah, what's the link you think between purpose and 585 00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:14.679 because a lot of these things were you know, we talked about it's making 586 00:45:14.719 --> 00:45:20.639 a difference in customers lives and customer impact and, you know, improving everything 587 00:45:20.840 --> 00:45:25.320 related to the customer. That's got a link directly to sort of the importance 588 00:45:25.320 --> 00:45:30.400 of an ethical approach to selling. And obviously that's that's what we preach, 589 00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:32.519 you know, it's it's in our name. But what? So, what 590 00:45:32.559 --> 00:45:38.199 do you think is the link between having a your noble purpose and maintaining a 591 00:45:38.239 --> 00:45:44.559 truly ethical approach to selling? Your noble purpose is about how you improve life 592 00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:51.599 for customers and it should lead you down the path of ethical selling. And, 593 00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:55.039 having said that, I believe that most people are ethical and most people 594 00:45:55.079 --> 00:46:00.079 want to do the right thing and when we think of all the example of 595 00:46:00.199 --> 00:46:05.519 people who haven't done the right thing, we tend to pluck them out as 596 00:46:05.559 --> 00:46:09.199 if they are individuals. I'll use wells fargo as an example, where it 597 00:46:09.280 --> 00:46:15.679 was just a few bad apples, when actually those people are acting in accordance 598 00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:19.559 with the culture, and even the people at the top of the culture might 599 00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:22.199 not have been bad people. They didn't say go. And then a bunch 600 00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:27.599 of accounts and and doing the customers for all this. But when you think 601 00:46:27.639 --> 00:46:34.920 about ethical selling, when you're true north is hit the numbers at all costs, 602 00:46:35.760 --> 00:46:39.320 you open up the door for even people who normally might be ethical to 603 00:46:39.400 --> 00:46:44.800 cut corners and and I'm sure there's some awful people in the world, we 604 00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:47.599 know that, but what I see is the majority of people are just trying 605 00:46:47.599 --> 00:46:52.159 to do a good job make a living. And when you create a climate 606 00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:58.599 that says hitting the numbers is everything, you might take a normally ethical person 607 00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:01.039 who doesn't want to lose their job, hop because they want to provide for 608 00:47:01.079 --> 00:47:06.800 themselves and their family, and they might start going on that side. And 609 00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:14.239 so the real ownness is on every leader to say we're here to improve life 610 00:47:14.239 --> 00:47:21.920 for customers in ways that are ethical and every illness is on the individual to 611 00:47:22.559 --> 00:47:25.880 say that. I remember I worked with someone who's one of the best customer 612 00:47:25.920 --> 00:47:30.639 service people I've ever worked with, and she told us about this other company 613 00:47:30.679 --> 00:47:35.800 that she worked for where they would tell people they had this lie that they 614 00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:38.480 would say. They would say they had a fire in the factory when orders 615 00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:42.960 relate, and she said you had to write down who you said that too, 616 00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:45.519 so you didn't use the story more than once. And it was interesting 617 00:47:45.599 --> 00:47:51.320 because I had two years of experiences being the best customer support person I'd ever 618 00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:53.840 had. But when she told me that story and I realized she was part 619 00:47:53.880 --> 00:47:57.039 of it, and she's only twenty years old when she was part of it, 620 00:47:57.719 --> 00:48:00.440 I kind of changed how I thought about her and and and she was 621 00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:05.079 super nice and she was very young and doing it at the direction of her 622 00:48:05.159 --> 00:48:08.880 leadership. But what I what I gleaned from them, I wasn't much older 623 00:48:08.960 --> 00:48:14.639 myself, is, whether you know it or not, people are watching how 624 00:48:14.719 --> 00:48:19.880 you conduct yourself and most people give others the benefit of the doubt. Most 625 00:48:19.880 --> 00:48:23.480 people assume people are honest, most people assume that people are have good intent 626 00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:30.039 but when you reveal something different than that, people will not take it as 627 00:48:30.079 --> 00:48:32.679 an isolated incident. It will become what they think of you. That's a 628 00:48:32.679 --> 00:48:36.599 really good point. Yeah, that they're they're not going to just dismiss it. 629 00:48:36.840 --> 00:48:39.199 They're going to take that as a one off right. Even if it 630 00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:45.119 wasn't one off, they'll say, oh, I must not have really known 631 00:48:45.239 --> 00:48:50.639 him or her. And so what we find is, and most of our 632 00:48:50.679 --> 00:48:53.320 clients, that most people that cause when I work with senior teams, they 633 00:48:53.320 --> 00:48:58.880 already have a purpose. It's either implicit or explicit. We're trying to help 634 00:48:58.920 --> 00:49:01.760 them elevate it and bring it to life with a sales team. But having 635 00:49:01.800 --> 00:49:06.599 said that, I have worked with a couple of places, three in fact, 636 00:49:06.960 --> 00:49:10.639 where things have gone sideways in a really bad way and a leader either 637 00:49:10.719 --> 00:49:14.519 had to fix it or a new leader came in and said we have got 638 00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:21.239 to fix this. And what a noble purpose does for you is it gets 639 00:49:21.360 --> 00:49:28.719 everyone in your organization focused on aligned around the same true north and it tends 640 00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:35.199 to inoculate you against those individual bad behaviors. And if you have them, 641 00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:38.199 they are in fact outliers. They're not a product of your culture. Now 642 00:49:38.239 --> 00:49:42.800 you started talking about sales managers and the role of sales leaders and I want 643 00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:46.199 to get into that, but but as a sort of bridge to that a 644 00:49:46.239 --> 00:49:50.880 lot of the things that we're talking about. What's your perspective on whether companies 645 00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:53.719 can train for the things that we're discussing? And I guess a related question 646 00:49:53.760 --> 00:49:59.079 is what do you think companies get wrong about training their their sales teams? 647 00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:04.280 It seems like you know a lot of companies they view training as jamming product 648 00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:09.440 information into reps heads and giving the market marketing messages to memorize and demoscripts and 649 00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:14.400 here's the nuts and bolts of how you use the crm and other sort of 650 00:50:14.440 --> 00:50:16.960 tactical things which are important, important for them to know, but they put 651 00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:21.599 their training all around those things. But all the things that we've been talking 652 00:50:21.639 --> 00:50:23.679 about, can you train for those things? And and again, what do 653 00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:29.920 you think companies get wrong about their development? Absolutely can train for those things. 654 00:50:30.840 --> 00:50:35.679 So I will use a parenting example. It is one thing if I 655 00:50:35.719 --> 00:50:39.559 were to do a parenting class and tell everyone you're trying to raise future citizens, 656 00:50:39.559 --> 00:50:45.320 you're trying to raise ethical people, you're trying to raise people that can 657 00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:49.840 create their own happiness. I mean everyone's gonna go well, Duh, yeah, 658 00:50:49.840 --> 00:50:53.719 but it's completely another thing if I say here are common scenarios with five 659 00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:58.480 year olds. Let's play out how you handle this. Here are common scenarios 660 00:50:58.480 --> 00:51:01.079 with fifteen year olds. Let's lay out how you handle this. Here's this 661 00:51:01.239 --> 00:51:06.039 conversation you might want to have with your kids. Let's play out how you 662 00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:12.239 started. Backgroup of parents is going to be so much better in the moment 663 00:51:12.840 --> 00:51:17.320 because they've practiced these things. And so as leaders, when you train yourself, 664 00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:20.320 people like, yeah, you gotta train them how to use the crn. 665 00:51:20.400 --> 00:51:22.760 Yeah, you gotta train them how to you know what your products are. 666 00:51:23.159 --> 00:51:27.039 But so much of the mistake people make is they think if I can 667 00:51:27.079 --> 00:51:30.840 just load their lips with the perfect language and give them this great message, 668 00:51:31.159 --> 00:51:36.239 the customer will agree. And that's not what you want to do. What 669 00:51:36.400 --> 00:51:40.239 you want to do is you want to have done so many practices with your 670 00:51:40.239 --> 00:51:45.079 people and have their knowledge be so deep and baked in that they are conversationally 671 00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:47.719 fluid in the things that you want them to do. So, just like 672 00:51:47.719 --> 00:51:51.760 that parenting class, you can give me the perfect script but like if my 673 00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:53.480 kids says it differently, I'm gonna go, AH, what am I gonna 674 00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:57.920 do? But if we've done practice after practice after practice, in the second 675 00:51:57.920 --> 00:52:00.519 that comes up I go I know what to do here, and so you 676 00:52:00.599 --> 00:52:02.719 absolutely can for train for this. And what you're trained for it. You're 677 00:52:02.760 --> 00:52:08.239 trained for two things. You're training for a mental model that they can carry 678 00:52:08.280 --> 00:52:13.360 with them from call to call to call to call, good or bad, 679 00:52:13.519 --> 00:52:17.000 and then you're also training for some skills because we already know the scenarios that 680 00:52:17.119 --> 00:52:22.679 they're most likely an encounter and we're not trying to script them. But it's 681 00:52:22.719 --> 00:52:25.559 just like an actor or an actress. You can tell when they're sort of 682 00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:30.199 reaching for the line because they're trying to get the script, versus you can 683 00:52:30.280 --> 00:52:35.079 tell when it's so deep within them that they are connecting with the audience. 684 00:52:35.159 --> 00:52:37.400 That's how we want our sellers on that third level. Yeah, like we 685 00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:42.599 say, it's you've got to develop sales people from the standpoint of skill and 686 00:52:42.679 --> 00:52:45.840 will, because if you develop the skill doesn't mean that they're actually going to 687 00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:50.280 do it if they don't have that true north, that purpose. They don't. 688 00:52:50.519 --> 00:52:53.519 And I'll tell you how I develop selling one noble purpose. There's a 689 00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:58.800 big story in the book about the research, but the reason I came to 690 00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:01.599 it was I had been a sales trainer for a lot of different companies. 691 00:53:01.639 --> 00:53:05.960 I was a contract sales trainer for a solid decade when my kids were young, 692 00:53:06.639 --> 00:53:09.960 and what I came to realize that there were so many good sales trainings 693 00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:14.480 out there that talked about putting the customer first, but the reason it fell 694 00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:17.280 apart in the field is because, when it came to the field, the 695 00:53:17.320 --> 00:53:22.679 true north was always the number and so I had to find a way to 696 00:53:22.840 --> 00:53:25.800 make the true north the customer impact, because then the skills stick because they 697 00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:30.760 are in the service of that. That's really good. So let's talk about 698 00:53:30.800 --> 00:53:34.480 because it's directly related to training rights, is again the role of the sales 699 00:53:34.519 --> 00:53:37.280 manager, and you write in the book about sales managers as the quote, 700 00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:42.679 frontline belief builders. Can you talk about what you think the role of the 701 00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:45.840 sales leader should be today, whether it's, you know, Reinforcing Training, 702 00:53:46.440 --> 00:53:51.840 coaching, reducing people's anxieties, their self doubts, all those sorts of things 703 00:53:51.880 --> 00:53:54.960 like what what do you think their role is? And and our companies adequately 704 00:53:55.079 --> 00:54:01.840 preparing people that are promoted into sales leadership roles to actually leading, leading coach? 705 00:54:02.239 --> 00:54:06.559 So let's take the first question. Our Company is adequately preparing? In 706 00:54:06.599 --> 00:54:09.599 most cases the answer is no. We promote the best seller and then we 707 00:54:09.639 --> 00:54:13.519 go congratulation at your sales manager. At least that's what happened to me. 708 00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:19.960 But managers are the frontline belief builders, and what I mean by that is 709 00:54:20.199 --> 00:54:24.719 a seller is going to hear from the C r o the CEO on occasion, 710 00:54:25.239 --> 00:54:30.119 but the manager is the primary voice in their ear. And so we 711 00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:34.440 tend to train managers on is. Here's how you do your pipeline calls, 712 00:54:34.440 --> 00:54:37.480 here's how you do it is, but we don't train them on this important 713 00:54:37.480 --> 00:54:43.400 thing called belief. And so I'm gonna give you a shortcut, a super 714 00:54:43.440 --> 00:54:46.760 simple, very powerful thing that sales managers can do, and it's what we 715 00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:52.280 call the game changing questions. So everybody knows. I'll give you an example. 716 00:54:52.320 --> 00:54:54.800 Everybody knows manager does the pipeline review and we sit down and I say, 717 00:54:54.800 --> 00:54:58.400 well, so I see God, Opportunity, x, Y Z. 718 00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:00.119 What are the questions? I asked. How much is it gonna BE? 719 00:55:00.239 --> 00:55:02.639 When are you going to close it? Do you have all the decision makers 720 00:55:02.639 --> 00:55:07.000 in the room? WHO's the competition? What's the likelihood? To all those 721 00:55:07.159 --> 00:55:12.239 very important questions. And a lot of sales leaders think that asking those questions 722 00:55:12.440 --> 00:55:15.760 is coaching right, he is coaching. It is not coaching. You're asking 723 00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:17.920 a seller to report on something and half the time when they tell it to 724 00:55:17.960 --> 00:55:21.599 you, you ask them to change it. Are you sure it's thinking said? 725 00:55:21.639 --> 00:55:23.559 I think it's a Dy. Yeah, it's, but anyhow, that's 726 00:55:23.559 --> 00:55:28.480 not coaching. It is information reporting. It is just like asking your kid 727 00:55:28.760 --> 00:55:30.239 when do you have to be there? What do you need for practice? 728 00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:36.960 Like it's important, but it's not. It's not parenting. So here is 729 00:55:37.000 --> 00:55:39.440 the question you ask. We've gone through all your stuff. Will, you 730 00:55:39.519 --> 00:55:45.000 told me about this one single question, will, how will this customer be 731 00:55:45.159 --> 00:55:51.440 different as a result of doing business with us? Now, I am the 732 00:55:51.519 --> 00:55:54.039 manager and I asked that question, and thank you for playing along and being 733 00:55:54.039 --> 00:56:00.159 my sales rep will, I'm the manager. Will's brain has just gone from 734 00:56:00.199 --> 00:56:02.800 all the internal stuff he needs to know about himself and his deal and all 735 00:56:02.840 --> 00:56:07.760 that. Now he's thinking about the customer. That's where I want his brain 736 00:56:07.960 --> 00:56:12.320 before he goes into that call. So he's either gonna tell me. Well, 737 00:56:12.440 --> 00:56:15.639 Miss Manager, here's how the customer will be different. Their strategy will 738 00:56:15.719 --> 00:56:19.400 change, they will be more efficient, they will do this and I'll go. 739 00:56:19.480 --> 00:56:22.199 Well, will is really ready for this call. Focus on that or 740 00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:24.760 he'll go well, I don't know, they'll have our solution, in which 741 00:56:24.800 --> 00:56:29.039 case, Ding, Ding, Ding. My sales rep is not ready, 742 00:56:29.079 --> 00:56:31.519 because if he can't answer to me, he can't answer to the customer. 743 00:56:31.519 --> 00:56:37.119 And so when you ask what role do sales managers play? If you can 744 00:56:37.159 --> 00:56:40.880 start asking this question, how will the customer be different and you can lift 745 00:56:40.960 --> 00:56:45.480 it up. So say will gives me a great answer, then when I'm 746 00:56:45.519 --> 00:56:49.400 talking to Susie and she gives me a terrible answer, I can say, 747 00:56:49.559 --> 00:56:51.760 well, you know, I heard from will. Or if the sales mean 748 00:56:51.880 --> 00:56:57.079 I can say will was talking about how his customer would be different and Susie 749 00:56:57.159 --> 00:57:00.840 had an example of the impact she had on customers. When I start telling 750 00:57:00.880 --> 00:57:05.760 those stories I'm building what I call the tribe of true believers, because in 751 00:57:05.840 --> 00:57:10.360 every culture it's the storytelling. America we got a bunch of stories that we 752 00:57:10.440 --> 00:57:15.639 tell ourselves. Now we know M are Dru but every religion has a big 753 00:57:15.639 --> 00:57:19.320 book of stories. Every family reunion you come to tell the stories because the 754 00:57:19.400 --> 00:57:23.800 stories you tell reveal the mindset, in the ethos of the culture. So 755 00:57:23.880 --> 00:57:29.039 if you want to build belief in your sellers, may be asking how the 756 00:57:29.079 --> 00:57:31.639 customer is different as results of doing business with you, and you need to 757 00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:37.039 be telling stories about when it actually happened. That's the manager as a belief 758 00:57:37.079 --> 00:57:40.320 building and I love that that question. I remember reading that in the book 759 00:57:40.360 --> 00:57:45.000 because it's not only a sort of a litmus test for the salesperson and whether 760 00:57:45.039 --> 00:57:49.679 they're prepared, but it can also be a rallying cry for the rest of 761 00:57:49.719 --> 00:57:52.559 the organization. If you share that people that are even in nuts, they 762 00:57:52.639 --> 00:57:57.599 might be in customer support, customer service, operational marketing roles, whatever it 763 00:57:57.679 --> 00:58:00.880 might be. It's really helpful for them to understand that too. And I 764 00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:04.519 think the other thing is that it helps you understand how to engage with the 765 00:58:04.599 --> 00:58:07.280 customer before you win the deal and after. Yes, right, because the 766 00:58:07.360 --> 00:58:14.599 relationship goes further than just that win. And so how will the customer be 767 00:58:14.679 --> 00:58:19.280 different? Not only creates a compelling story for your seller to talk with the 768 00:58:19.320 --> 00:58:22.679 customer about, but to your point customer success, it should be in your 769 00:58:22.679 --> 00:58:29.000 marketing. The whole ethos of your company should be lined up around that and 770 00:58:29.039 --> 00:58:34.239 what we say, in an ideal world the company has a shared noble purpose 771 00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:37.559 that everyone knows and understands, which is about how you make a difference to 772 00:58:37.599 --> 00:58:44.079 customers. Each person can draw a direct line from their job to how they 773 00:58:44.079 --> 00:58:47.239 make a difference to customers. So it's the company and the job and then 774 00:58:47.239 --> 00:58:54.039 the third pieces. Each team member has a personal connection to that, that 775 00:58:54.199 --> 00:58:58.639 it means something to them. And when you get those three, imagine a 776 00:58:58.719 --> 00:59:02.159 ven diagram with company job in person. When you get those three lined up, 777 00:59:02.239 --> 00:59:06.480 man that is how you create magic as a company. That's when you 778 00:59:06.519 --> 00:59:08.639 win the market, that's when you become the best place to work, that's 779 00:59:08.639 --> 00:59:14.599 when you become an innovative company. So we believe strongly, and we talked 780 00:59:14.599 --> 00:59:17.159 about it on other episodes of this podcast, that a salesperson's ability to ask 781 00:59:17.840 --> 00:59:22.119 good questions really makes or breaks an opportunity right, especially early on, building 782 00:59:22.159 --> 00:59:27.480 that credibility and trust, not walking in with your power point showing you know 783 00:59:27.639 --> 00:59:31.480 all your locations and customer logos and not asking them what's keeping them up at 784 00:59:31.559 --> 00:59:35.159 night, that sort of thing. But so what are you from your perspective? 785 00:59:35.159 --> 00:59:39.079 What are some questions that sales people should be asking customers more of, 786 00:59:39.159 --> 00:59:43.119 like what do customers want to be asked? And just important, just as 787 00:59:43.159 --> 00:59:49.519 importantly, how do you get salespeople to actually to actually listen to the answers 788 00:59:49.679 --> 00:59:52.960 and engage in dialogue instead of just thinking about what the next question is? 789 00:59:54.639 --> 00:59:59.639 So you've asked two questions. I'll answer from both. So, in terms 790 00:59:59.719 --> 01:00:06.360 of what should you be asking about, if you should be asking one broad 791 01:00:06.440 --> 01:00:12.840 rush example, about how the company's strategy and goals, and you can find 792 01:00:12.880 --> 01:00:15.880 this on the Internet, whatever they're CEO said, if you're not calling on 793 01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:21.760 the CEO, how those are going to play out with your buyer. And 794 01:00:21.840 --> 01:00:24.719 by that I mean so your company is trying to do x y z. 795 01:00:25.480 --> 01:00:30.199 what's your role in that? Will how will that affect you in your department? 796 01:00:30.239 --> 01:00:32.960 Will what impact will that have on you? You? That's the kinds 797 01:00:34.000 --> 01:00:37.199 of questions that you want to be asking, which are not those who keeps 798 01:00:37.199 --> 01:00:40.480 you up at night, like salespeople figure that out twenty five years ago. 799 01:00:40.519 --> 01:00:44.920 Buy Or don't want to hear it. You're getting to that, but you're 800 01:00:44.960 --> 01:00:50.199 getting to that in a much more skilled way, because what you're doing with 801 01:00:50.239 --> 01:00:53.360 a question like that you've got this initiative to do X Y Z as a 802 01:00:53.360 --> 01:00:59.719 company. Or I know your market has suddenly become very competitive you're revealing of 803 01:01:00.159 --> 01:01:06.440 my homework and then you're asking the customer to think deeply about how the larger 804 01:01:06.519 --> 01:01:08.639 issues are affecting them in their job. And Oh, if they don't know, 805 01:01:09.320 --> 01:01:12.679 you might need to try and wratch it yourself up a notch or two 806 01:01:12.679 --> 01:01:19.159 inside the company. And so that's the kinds of questions that you want to 807 01:01:19.239 --> 01:01:22.199 be asking of your buyer. And then I said there were two parts and 808 01:01:22.239 --> 01:01:25.559 I forgot the second part because I got so into the first part. How 809 01:01:25.599 --> 01:01:30.840 do salespeople actually listen to the answers to the questions that they're asking? So 810 01:01:31.000 --> 01:01:37.480 here I'm going to use a marriage counselor example. Imagine we go to a 811 01:01:37.519 --> 01:01:39.760 marriage counselor and I'm married. I've been married for a million years and I'm 812 01:01:39.760 --> 01:01:43.960 mayor, I'm a woman and I'm married to a man. Okay, so 813 01:01:44.159 --> 01:01:49.039 you need to know that importantly and tell here. If the marriage counselor says 814 01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:52.199 you'll need to ask each other more questions, you need to be more interested 815 01:01:52.239 --> 01:01:55.480 in each other. You need to really listen to the answers. Both of 816 01:01:55.599 --> 01:02:00.880 us will go yes, we do, we're gonna do that, yes we 817 01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:06.000 are. But then in day to day life we might forget. So imagine 818 01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:09.280 instead if the marriage counselor says, next time you come back here, I'm 819 01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:14.320 going to ask you what was your partner's week like? What are they worried 820 01:02:14.360 --> 01:02:17.119 about most right now? What are the most important things going on with them? 821 01:02:17.360 --> 01:02:20.400 I'm going Oh, ship, I don't want to look battened for the 822 01:02:20.400 --> 01:02:23.639 marriage council. I better get the answers. So how do you get sellers 823 01:02:23.679 --> 01:02:29.159 to listen more? Is You the leader, and we've got five problems that 824 01:02:29.199 --> 01:02:32.760 we use. You, the leader, consistently ask what's going on in this 825 01:02:32.840 --> 01:02:37.360 customer's environment? What are their biggest challenges? What are they trying to accomplish 826 01:02:37.440 --> 01:02:40.239 within the scope of their job? What does success look like for them? 827 01:02:40.239 --> 01:02:45.519 What does lack of success look like them? You, the leader, are 828 01:02:45.599 --> 01:02:51.239 always asking your seller those questions about that deep customer intelligence. If your boss 829 01:02:51.320 --> 01:02:53.960 is not doing this, you need to ask them of yourself. And one 830 01:02:54.000 --> 01:02:59.280 thing that really helps sellers is if you have a thirty minute call, forty 831 01:02:59.320 --> 01:03:02.800 five mint call, just make a mental note whatever time you started, what's 832 01:03:02.840 --> 01:03:07.719 the halfway mark, and say I'm gonna talk about myself after the halfway mark's 833 01:03:08.400 --> 01:03:14.960 super simple. That will give you the space to relax and say, in 834 01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:17.440 the first half of this call, I'm gonna find out as much about them 835 01:03:17.480 --> 01:03:22.239 and what's going on with them and their goals and initiatives as I possibly can, 836 01:03:22.559 --> 01:03:25.920 and you need to have some confidence that whatever they reveal, you'll be 837 01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:30.079 able to connect to it, because you probably will if you're talking to the 838 01:03:30.159 --> 01:03:35.159 right fire and again, it's all it all goes back to the question you 839 01:03:35.159 --> 01:03:37.920 talked about earlier of focusing on how will this customer be different as a result 840 01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:40.920 of doing business with us? Right, right, so I want to spend 841 01:03:40.920 --> 01:03:45.320 at least half my time, especially in those early calls, maybe more leaning 842 01:03:45.360 --> 01:03:53.320 in saying I want to figure out where this customer, this buyer, this 843 01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:58.079 company, where they're going, what they're trying to accomplish the larger scope of 844 01:03:58.159 --> 01:04:01.880 things, what the compelling issues are, because they wouldn't be talking to me 845 01:04:02.079 --> 01:04:05.199 if they didn't already think that in some way I could help them. So 846 01:04:05.280 --> 01:04:12.440 just give yourself that space and don't be so worried about trying to bring up 847 01:04:12.480 --> 01:04:15.239 you like if you it's it's almost like speed dating, which used to be 848 01:04:15.320 --> 01:04:19.239 popular, where you have like fifteen minutes or seven minutes. You spend the 849 01:04:19.239 --> 01:04:23.639 whole time talking about yourself, you're probably not going to get another date. 850 01:04:23.800 --> 01:04:26.960 Well, and and and the last point I'd make on that as it goes 851 01:04:26.960 --> 01:04:30.159 back to what you talked about before, which is, and this is around 852 01:04:30.199 --> 01:04:32.800 the importance of your brand and and marketing leading up to the call, because 853 01:04:32.880 --> 01:04:36.280 all that stuff is available to the customer and they wouldn't be on the they 854 01:04:36.280 --> 01:04:39.760 wouldn't be on the phone with you to begin with, around a zoom call 855 01:04:39.800 --> 01:04:43.039 to begin with, if they didn't find all that stuff about you and find 856 01:04:43.039 --> 01:04:45.760 you credible. Yeah, and so you can. It doesn't have to be 857 01:04:45.800 --> 01:04:48.679 awkward. They'll go. So, what have you got for me? I'm 858 01:04:48.719 --> 01:04:51.960 really interested in your X Y Z saying. Well, I am delighted to 859 01:04:53.079 --> 01:04:56.079 hear that. If we could spend a couple of minutes, I've done some 860 01:04:56.159 --> 01:04:59.320 homework and know a little bit about you, but if we could spend just 861 01:04:59.400 --> 01:05:00.360 a couple of minute, so I got a couple of questions for you, 862 01:05:00.440 --> 01:05:04.119 that would help me direct my comments. So, I mean, you pivot 863 01:05:04.239 --> 01:05:08.480 just like that and you say so. You guys are trying to do x 864 01:05:08.599 --> 01:05:13.000 y Z. strikes me that someone in your role is probably worried about Baba, 865 01:05:13.440 --> 01:05:15.119 if I was talking to a chief revenue officer, I'd say, I 866 01:05:15.159 --> 01:05:20.320 see you guys have some really aggressive sales goals. Someone in your role has 867 01:05:20.400 --> 01:05:24.280 probably got a lot of pressure on them to deal with that, but they 868 01:05:24.320 --> 01:05:28.679 also need to keep their sales team happy and emotionally engaged. How are you 869 01:05:28.719 --> 01:05:31.199 dealing with that? We're gonna have a good conversation from that point on, 870 01:05:32.079 --> 01:05:35.679 much more substantive, right and and the truth is I really want to know. 871 01:05:35.920 --> 01:05:41.599 It's not some question that I'm asking to hope that they say this. 872 01:05:42.119 --> 01:05:44.559 I really want to know. And if they go, Oh, shoot, 873 01:05:44.559 --> 01:05:46.159 I've never thought of that, or Oh, let me tell you about either 874 01:05:46.199 --> 01:05:49.559 way, I can deal with the answer because I can probably help them. 875 01:05:49.880 --> 01:05:54.760 Yeah, so we're just about at the end of our time. I wanted 876 01:05:54.800 --> 01:05:58.760 to wrap with one last question for you to get, you know, something 877 01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:02.480 practical addition to everything you've already given that people can take away as people listen 878 01:06:02.519 --> 01:06:05.599 to this and they think about like all right, what's my what's my purpose? 879 01:06:05.679 --> 01:06:10.360 What's my true not right, what are some questions that sales people should 880 01:06:10.400 --> 01:06:14.079 ask themselves to help them create their own, I think, as you call 881 01:06:14.119 --> 01:06:18.719 it, their own purpose statement? Yeah, noble purpose statements, and it's 882 01:06:18.760 --> 01:06:24.360 noble because it's in the service of others. So the first thing I would 883 01:06:24.360 --> 01:06:29.320 say is don't put too much pressure on yourself. Don't feel like it's forever, 884 01:06:30.039 --> 01:06:31.239 and I mean if you want to go off and, you know, 885 01:06:31.440 --> 01:06:36.320 hike in the Wilderness for two weeks and do some soul searching, have at 886 01:06:36.360 --> 01:06:40.199 it. Now's a good time to do that. But if you want to 887 01:06:40.920 --> 01:06:45.760 make better sales calls this afternoon, here's what you can do, and it's 888 01:06:45.800 --> 01:06:49.960 in the book. You ask yourself the question, how does what we sell 889 01:06:50.280 --> 01:06:55.920 make a difference? And keep pushing yourself. What if we didn't do it? 890 01:06:56.000 --> 01:06:59.239 What if they didn't have it? What happens when it works really well? 891 01:06:59.519 --> 01:07:02.400 Really Search and say what's the ripple effect? How does what we sell, 892 01:07:02.639 --> 01:07:06.840 how do I, make a difference? Then ask yourself that second question. 893 01:07:08.199 --> 01:07:11.440 How do we do it differently? And you may have some innovation that's 894 01:07:11.440 --> 01:07:15.000 completely different, or it may just be we care more. And then really 895 01:07:15.039 --> 01:07:18.880 reflect on your best day. What do you love about your job? And 896 01:07:18.920 --> 01:07:23.079 I guarantee you may go back to some of those days when you score the 897 01:07:23.079 --> 01:07:28.599 big sale and got the big commission. I will also guarantee you that part 898 01:07:28.639 --> 01:07:33.079 of that was knowing that you made a difference this. Once we get beyond 899 01:07:33.119 --> 01:07:39.119 food and shelter, people want belonging and significance, and so it doesn't matter 900 01:07:39.159 --> 01:07:42.559 who you work for at this moment in time, doesn't matter what your leadership 901 01:07:42.639 --> 01:07:47.760 is doing, when you can create a narrative for yourself that you reset against 902 01:07:47.760 --> 01:07:50.400 how you make a difference and how you do it differently and what you love 903 01:07:50.440 --> 01:07:55.440 about your job. The data tells us that you will close more sales, 904 01:07:56.400 --> 01:08:00.360 you will force stronger connections with your customers. Your win right, we'll go 905 01:08:00.440 --> 01:08:02.400 up, your customer retention will go up and here's the other thing, you'll 906 01:08:02.400 --> 01:08:08.119 be happy because you're going to show up for work every day no matter what. 907 01:08:09.079 --> 01:08:15.639 You deserve to enjoy it, and it's the difference between being that exhausted 908 01:08:15.760 --> 01:08:17.359 kind of tired at the end of the day where it was just a rat 909 01:08:17.439 --> 01:08:21.319 race, versus what I called the good tired, when you're tired at the 910 01:08:21.399 --> 01:08:25.760 end of the day, which you know you did something that mattered, you 911 01:08:25.800 --> 01:08:30.760 know you accomplished something. Yeah, so this has been excellent. As I 912 01:08:30.800 --> 01:08:32.479 said at the at the outset, Lisa, I was eager to have you 913 01:08:32.520 --> 01:08:36.760 on this show because I really felt like your point of view about selling maps 914 01:08:36.760 --> 01:08:40.399 closest to what this, this podcast, is all about, and I think 915 01:08:40.439 --> 01:08:44.600 that's Um that's proven out over the last hours. So I hope everybody that 916 01:08:44.680 --> 01:08:49.319 has listened to this enjoys it and takes some some really practical and important things 917 01:08:49.319 --> 01:08:54.439 to heart that they can they can do around this. You can find Lisa 918 01:08:54.520 --> 01:08:59.800 and connect with her on Linkedin, on twitter. Her twitter handle is Lisa 919 01:09:00.000 --> 01:09:04.840 Earl McLeod. That's Lisa E A R L E McLeod, M C L 920 01:09:05.840 --> 01:09:13.000 E O D and Her website is McLeod and more dot Com. That's McLeod 921 01:09:13.479 --> 01:09:16.680 and more M O R E dot Com. Again, you can connect with 922 01:09:16.680 --> 01:09:20.319 her on on Linkedin and, of course, the book selling with noble purpose 923 01:09:20.399 --> 01:09:25.720 you can get wherever you get your books from. Lisa, thank you so 924 01:09:25.800 --> 01:09:29.640 much again for being with us today. It's been such a pleasure. I 925 01:09:29.680 --> 01:09:32.760 have long admired your company and what you've done. You are early, early, 926 01:09:32.840 --> 01:09:38.880 early on sales as integrity and a noble profession. So it was I 927 01:09:38.960 --> 01:09:42.439 was really delighted to get the invite. Now I'll tell folks I appreciate you 928 01:09:42.479 --> 01:09:45.119 sharing where you can find me if you follow me on Linkedin. We post 929 01:09:45.199 --> 01:09:50.920 tons of video content and it's free. Oh so, follow me on Linkedin 930 01:09:51.399 --> 01:09:56.680 and get the work on purpose newsletter. They're both free and it's super crazy 931 01:09:57.079 --> 01:10:00.319 excellent. Well, thank you again, Lisa. Thanks to every one for 932 01:10:00.399 --> 01:10:04.239 listening to us today. I'm will Milano with integrity solutions. We look forward 933 01:10:04.279 --> 01:10:08.399 to having you join us for our next episode a couple of weeks from now 934 01:10:08.840 --> 01:10:12.119 and of course, on mental selling. If there are any other previous episodes 935 01:10:12.159 --> 01:10:15.840 you haven't listened to, please do and also, when you can, give 936 01:10:15.920 --> 01:10:18.720 us a like or or subscribe, give us a review. We love to 937 01:10:18.760 --> 01:10:23.239 get feedback on how we can make the show better and until next time, 938 01:10:23.279 --> 01:10:30.199 thanks everyone for joining us. Holley, you've been listening to mental selling and 939 01:10:30.279 --> 01:10:34.039 integrity solutions podcast. Stay in touch with us by subscribing to the show in 940 01:10:34.119 --> 01:10:39.640 your favorite podcast player and following us on Linkedin and twitter. Please give us 941 01:10:39.680 --> 01:10:43.920 a rating, leave a comment and share episodes you love. That helps us 942 01:10:44.000 --> 01:10:48.079 keep empowering sales and service leaders to master the mental side of selling. Until 943 01:10:48.199 --> 01:10:53.159 next time, let's go out and create amazing customer experiences.